1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:24,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin. As William Shakespeare once said, the course of true 2 00:00:24,996 --> 00:00:28,476 Speaker 1: love never did run smooth, and one of the unsmoothest 3 00:00:28,516 --> 00:00:32,196 Speaker 1: parts of love is the initial attraction phase. You see 4 00:00:32,196 --> 00:00:34,796 Speaker 1: somebody across the way who looks kind of cute. But 5 00:00:35,036 --> 00:00:37,236 Speaker 1: will that person like you back? Will they think you're 6 00:00:37,276 --> 00:00:42,236 Speaker 1: hot enough, smart enough, successful enough. Sometimes the answer is yes, 7 00:00:42,636 --> 00:00:45,156 Speaker 1: cue all the hearts and fireworks. But at least some 8 00:00:45,236 --> 00:00:47,956 Speaker 1: of the time the answer is no. The person that 9 00:00:47,996 --> 00:00:50,036 Speaker 1: you're into isn't that into you. 10 00:00:50,516 --> 00:00:54,636 Speaker 2: Relationships and attraction especially, there can be a lot of rejection. 11 00:00:54,716 --> 00:00:57,356 Speaker 2: It can be pretty demoralizing, and to some extent you 12 00:00:57,396 --> 00:00:59,756 Speaker 2: can't skip that part. But I think it really matters 13 00:01:00,236 --> 00:01:02,516 Speaker 2: why was I rejected in this instance. 14 00:01:02,876 --> 00:01:06,196 Speaker 1: This is doctor Paul Eastwick, an expert on the psychology 15 00:01:06,236 --> 00:01:07,276 Speaker 1: of human mating. 16 00:01:07,236 --> 00:01:09,956 Speaker 2: And there's a whole set of ideas out there that 17 00:01:10,076 --> 00:01:14,196 Speaker 2: suggests that you got rejected because you're a three out 18 00:01:14,236 --> 00:01:17,676 Speaker 2: of ten and you're just going to need to settle 19 00:01:18,076 --> 00:01:19,396 Speaker 2: for the other threes. 20 00:01:19,876 --> 00:01:22,156 Speaker 1: Paul is referring to a set of ideas he calls 21 00:01:22,236 --> 00:01:25,636 Speaker 1: the evoscript, the notion that human attraction boils down to 22 00:01:25,676 --> 00:01:29,396 Speaker 1: the harsh laws of natural selection under the evoscript finding 23 00:01:29,476 --> 00:01:32,516 Speaker 1: the right partner is all about finding someone with good genes. 24 00:01:32,916 --> 00:01:35,076 Speaker 1: Some of us, those so called nines and tens out 25 00:01:35,076 --> 00:01:37,876 Speaker 1: there becausess a whole host of traits that signal those 26 00:01:37,876 --> 00:01:40,636 Speaker 1: good genes. The rest of us not so much. 27 00:01:40,876 --> 00:01:44,116 Speaker 2: You have a certain set of attributes. They characterize who 28 00:01:44,196 --> 00:01:46,516 Speaker 2: you are and they determine what you're going to get 29 00:01:46,556 --> 00:01:49,316 Speaker 2: on the market. This is a set of ideas that 30 00:01:49,396 --> 00:01:53,836 Speaker 2: got very, very popular, but honestly it's not very inspiring. 31 00:01:54,156 --> 00:01:56,196 Speaker 2: You do kind of just wonder like what am I 32 00:01:56,316 --> 00:02:00,716 Speaker 2: doing wrong? What is wrong with me? And boy, it 33 00:02:00,756 --> 00:02:02,916 Speaker 2: makes the rejections hit that much harder. 34 00:02:03,356 --> 00:02:05,636 Speaker 1: But Paul's joining me on the show today to share 35 00:02:05,636 --> 00:02:08,036 Speaker 1: some good news. His research has found that when it 36 00:02:08,076 --> 00:02:11,516 Speaker 1: comes to dating, many of these evoscript ideas simply don't 37 00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:14,476 Speaker 1: hold up. In fact, he's just published a new book 38 00:02:14,716 --> 00:02:17,716 Speaker 1: with a much more inspiring view on the evolutionary origins 39 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:21,436 Speaker 1: of love. It's called Bonded by Evolution, The New Science 40 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:22,356 Speaker 1: of Love and Connection. 41 00:02:22,756 --> 00:02:24,956 Speaker 2: It's about a lot of the idea is that we 42 00:02:25,156 --> 00:02:28,516 Speaker 2: kind of get wrong about attraction and relationships and what 43 00:02:28,556 --> 00:02:31,276 Speaker 2: the science actually says about how relationships work. 44 00:02:31,476 --> 00:02:34,436 Speaker 1: But what does the science say about how relationships actually 45 00:02:34,476 --> 00:02:37,836 Speaker 1: work well. Paul will tell us after these quick messages 46 00:02:37,956 --> 00:02:55,436 Speaker 1: from our sponsors. Social psychologist Paul Eastwick has long been 47 00:02:55,476 --> 00:02:58,676 Speaker 1: frustrated by what he's called the evoscript, the idea that 48 00:02:58,756 --> 00:03:01,116 Speaker 1: human mating can simply be boiled down to a set 49 00:03:01,156 --> 00:03:04,316 Speaker 1: of harsh evolutionary rules that govern who and what we 50 00:03:04,396 --> 00:03:08,436 Speaker 1: find attractive. And perhaps the most infamous evoscript notion in 51 00:03:08,476 --> 00:03:12,396 Speaker 1: popular called today is the concept of mate value. I 52 00:03:12,436 --> 00:03:15,636 Speaker 1: asked Paul to explain how the idea is usually understood. 53 00:03:15,996 --> 00:03:19,876 Speaker 2: You're a collection of attributes, skills, and abilities, and it 54 00:03:19,876 --> 00:03:22,236 Speaker 2: can be a bunch of things. It can be your attractiveness, 55 00:03:22,236 --> 00:03:24,876 Speaker 2: of course, it can be your intelligence, anything that's going 56 00:03:24,916 --> 00:03:27,876 Speaker 2: to make you desirable to the other gender. If we're 57 00:03:27,876 --> 00:03:31,156 Speaker 2: assuming heterosexuality here, right, So for men, it might be 58 00:03:31,236 --> 00:03:33,996 Speaker 2: things like earning, potential and status. For women, it might 59 00:03:34,036 --> 00:03:37,276 Speaker 2: be things like youth. But all of these things factor 60 00:03:37,396 --> 00:03:41,836 Speaker 2: into your mate value, and your mate value should set 61 00:03:42,156 --> 00:03:46,516 Speaker 2: your standards. According to this worldview, you should be trying 62 00:03:46,636 --> 00:03:50,436 Speaker 2: to figure out where you sit in this hierarchy, because 63 00:03:50,516 --> 00:03:53,356 Speaker 2: you're probably going to be able to date somebody else 64 00:03:53,356 --> 00:03:57,156 Speaker 2: who's roughly at the same place that you are. I 65 00:03:57,196 --> 00:04:00,676 Speaker 2: think some of these ideas feel intuitive. If you think 66 00:04:00,756 --> 00:04:04,716 Speaker 2: about like popularity in a high school. There's this very 67 00:04:04,756 --> 00:04:08,236 Speaker 2: famous game that psychologists often play in their classes where 68 00:04:08,556 --> 00:04:12,996 Speaker 2: people wear numbers on their foreheads indicating their value. But 69 00:04:13,076 --> 00:04:14,876 Speaker 2: you don't know what your value is, and you're told 70 00:04:14,876 --> 00:04:16,916 Speaker 2: to go around and try to pair up with the 71 00:04:17,036 --> 00:04:20,356 Speaker 2: highest value partner you can get. And what you see 72 00:04:20,396 --> 00:04:22,556 Speaker 2: is that people who have low numbers they figure it 73 00:04:22,556 --> 00:04:24,676 Speaker 2: out pretty quickly because nobody wants to go near them. 74 00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:26,196 Speaker 1: Because ideas, I'm walking around with a three, but I 75 00:04:26,236 --> 00:04:28,196 Speaker 1: can't see my three. I'm like, ooh, let me go 76 00:04:28,236 --> 00:04:29,596 Speaker 1: with the nine or the ten, And the nine or 77 00:04:29,596 --> 00:04:31,276 Speaker 1: ten is like no way runs. 78 00:04:31,076 --> 00:04:33,756 Speaker 2: Away, right, absolutely not. And the two that you were 79 00:04:33,796 --> 00:04:36,996 Speaker 2: avoiding at first, well, eventually you settle for that guy 80 00:04:37,116 --> 00:04:38,916 Speaker 2: because it's about the best that you can do. 81 00:04:39,796 --> 00:04:41,316 Speaker 1: I mean, this is the kind of thing we see 82 00:04:41,476 --> 00:04:43,236 Speaker 1: on the internet all the time. I know, there's like 83 00:04:43,276 --> 00:04:45,676 Speaker 1: a new meme going around that's like she's a nine, 84 00:04:45,716 --> 00:04:48,516 Speaker 1: but she choose with her mouth open, literally gives these 85 00:04:48,516 --> 00:04:49,316 Speaker 1: things a number. 86 00:04:49,556 --> 00:04:51,996 Speaker 2: This is so pervasive on the internet. It's a little 87 00:04:52,036 --> 00:04:52,516 Speaker 2: bit wild. 88 00:04:52,996 --> 00:04:55,836 Speaker 1: So why did we think this was true? Scientifically, I 89 00:04:55,836 --> 00:04:58,676 Speaker 1: know there's a phenomena that researchers looked at to say, oh, 90 00:04:58,676 --> 00:05:00,676 Speaker 1: maybe there is a mat value scientifically. 91 00:05:00,676 --> 00:05:04,116 Speaker 2: Originally, this idea comes from two places. One is that 92 00:05:04,316 --> 00:05:09,516 Speaker 2: if you show people photographs or they meet strangers, there's 93 00:05:09,676 --> 00:05:13,316 Speaker 2: pretty good agreement about, let's say, how attractive somebody is. 94 00:05:13,476 --> 00:05:17,316 Speaker 2: It's not perfect, but it's certainly there. And the second 95 00:05:17,396 --> 00:05:19,676 Speaker 2: place we saw it is that if you look at 96 00:05:20,116 --> 00:05:22,916 Speaker 2: existing couples, if you look at couples who are together, 97 00:05:23,236 --> 00:05:27,956 Speaker 2: they're attractiveness level correlates. It's far from a perfect correlation, 98 00:05:28,396 --> 00:05:30,636 Speaker 2: but it's more than a coin flip. So there's a 99 00:05:30,716 --> 00:05:34,636 Speaker 2: real association there. And so people assumed, well, what that 100 00:05:34,796 --> 00:05:37,556 Speaker 2: means is that the market is the thing that's determining 101 00:05:37,676 --> 00:05:38,956 Speaker 2: largely who we're getting. 102 00:05:39,116 --> 00:05:41,996 Speaker 1: But I think it also comes from the online dating landscape. 103 00:05:42,036 --> 00:05:45,916 Speaker 1: So talk about how like these apps really reinforce these ideas. 104 00:05:45,636 --> 00:05:48,796 Speaker 2: When you look at online dating, When you look at 105 00:05:48,836 --> 00:05:53,916 Speaker 2: the apps, they do create a very unequal market when 106 00:05:53,956 --> 00:05:56,316 Speaker 2: all you've got is a photo and a brief description 107 00:05:56,476 --> 00:06:00,116 Speaker 2: to go with. Yeah, people are swiping quickly, and the 108 00:06:00,196 --> 00:06:03,476 Speaker 2: attractive people, the people with the high value attributes, Boy 109 00:06:03,516 --> 00:06:06,716 Speaker 2: do they earn a lot of likes, and if you 110 00:06:06,716 --> 00:06:09,476 Speaker 2: don't have those attributes, nobody is going to be wiping 111 00:06:09,556 --> 00:06:12,996 Speaker 2: right on you. And the problem there is that it 112 00:06:13,036 --> 00:06:17,796 Speaker 2: creates this very, very imbalanced market where there's a whole 113 00:06:17,836 --> 00:06:20,076 Speaker 2: bunch of people who really have no options. 114 00:06:20,196 --> 00:06:22,556 Speaker 1: And in your book you talk about this new model 115 00:06:22,596 --> 00:06:25,196 Speaker 1: that folks have been pushing lately where like this make 116 00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:26,916 Speaker 1: values part of it, but not all of it. So 117 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:27,756 Speaker 1: explain this model. 118 00:06:28,156 --> 00:06:30,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh this is so key. I've got a shout 119 00:06:30,636 --> 00:06:34,236 Speaker 2: out Dave Kenny, who really came up with this idea originally. 120 00:06:34,436 --> 00:06:37,076 Speaker 2: But the idea works like this. Attraction is not one thing, 121 00:06:37,116 --> 00:06:40,516 Speaker 2: it's three and one of those three parts is what 122 00:06:40,556 --> 00:06:43,756 Speaker 2: we could call popularity. But it rests on the assumption 123 00:06:43,836 --> 00:06:47,396 Speaker 2: that we agree how desirable somebody is. There are two 124 00:06:47,476 --> 00:06:51,236 Speaker 2: other components. One we'd call selectivity. It's the idea that 125 00:06:51,636 --> 00:06:54,236 Speaker 2: some people are always open to forming a new relationship. 126 00:06:54,276 --> 00:06:56,716 Speaker 2: Other people are extremely selective. But I got to talk 127 00:06:56,756 --> 00:06:59,956 Speaker 2: about the third component. This third component is what we 128 00:07:00,036 --> 00:07:04,956 Speaker 2: call compatibility. It refers to what's going on above and 129 00:07:04,996 --> 00:07:09,836 Speaker 2: beyond how selective I generally am and how does desirable 130 00:07:09,996 --> 00:07:14,716 Speaker 2: you actually are, and refers to the unique connection between 131 00:07:14,756 --> 00:07:19,316 Speaker 2: the two of us, even in initial impressions, compatibility is 132 00:07:19,356 --> 00:07:22,076 Speaker 2: the biggest share of what's going on. 133 00:07:22,076 --> 00:07:23,476 Speaker 1: One of the things I was shocked by was that 134 00:07:23,556 --> 00:07:26,196 Speaker 1: even this idea of the consensus part, like how much 135 00:07:26,236 --> 00:07:28,316 Speaker 1: we agree on the mat value if there is one, 136 00:07:28,716 --> 00:07:31,156 Speaker 1: that wasn't actually as high as people thought. Explain some 137 00:07:31,196 --> 00:07:32,996 Speaker 1: of the studies that showed that it's not as big 138 00:07:33,036 --> 00:07:33,636 Speaker 1: as we assume. 139 00:07:33,796 --> 00:07:36,756 Speaker 2: There was this great study a little while ago that 140 00:07:36,996 --> 00:07:40,756 Speaker 2: tried to capture how much agreement and disagreement there was 141 00:07:40,876 --> 00:07:44,356 Speaker 2: when people were evaluating faces, right, how attractive do you 142 00:07:44,396 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 2: think these faces are? And what they found is that, yes, 143 00:07:48,356 --> 00:07:51,796 Speaker 2: there is agreement here, but also look at how much disagreement. 144 00:07:52,196 --> 00:07:55,956 Speaker 2: And the great stat in that study is that most 145 00:07:55,996 --> 00:08:00,396 Speaker 2: of the faces that these participants were evaluating, it was 146 00:08:00,436 --> 00:08:05,116 Speaker 2: like ninety six percent of them, somebody rated you in 147 00:08:05,196 --> 00:08:08,116 Speaker 2: the top half or in the bottom half. Okay, So 148 00:08:08,196 --> 00:08:10,636 Speaker 2: that means that only for four percent of the phases 149 00:08:10,676 --> 00:08:13,436 Speaker 2: did everybody agree that you're on the top half or 150 00:08:13,436 --> 00:08:16,756 Speaker 2: the bottom half. So that is mostly disagreement there. 151 00:08:17,116 --> 00:08:19,876 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just that somebody thinks you're not half best. 152 00:08:19,996 --> 00:08:25,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly. And if you are consentually popular. Not 153 00:08:25,596 --> 00:08:26,636 Speaker 2: everybody thinks that. 154 00:08:27,076 --> 00:08:29,516 Speaker 1: Okay, So that's one problem with this mate value idea. 155 00:08:29,556 --> 00:08:32,436 Speaker 1: Another one is something you found when you look particularly 156 00:08:32,476 --> 00:08:35,876 Speaker 1: at the timing of romantic relationships. How does that challenge 157 00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:37,396 Speaker 1: this idea of mate value. Yeah. 158 00:08:37,396 --> 00:08:39,636 Speaker 2: I mean, it's one thing if you're looking at photographs 159 00:08:39,636 --> 00:08:43,756 Speaker 2: and meeting strangers, but it's another thing entirely when you're 160 00:08:43,796 --> 00:08:45,916 Speaker 2: getting to know people over time. And I just got 161 00:08:45,956 --> 00:08:50,036 Speaker 2: to point out historically, this is where most relationships came from. 162 00:08:50,636 --> 00:08:52,716 Speaker 2: When we were evolving on the Savannah, we lived in 163 00:08:52,756 --> 00:08:54,996 Speaker 2: small groups with a lot of people that you were 164 00:08:54,996 --> 00:08:56,156 Speaker 2: going to know for a long period of time. You 165 00:08:56,196 --> 00:08:57,956 Speaker 2: weren't going to spend a lot of time meeting strangers. 166 00:08:58,276 --> 00:09:00,916 Speaker 2: So what happens when we actually get to know each other. 167 00:09:01,676 --> 00:09:06,036 Speaker 2: It turns out that compatibility component I was describing earlier, 168 00:09:06,476 --> 00:09:09,596 Speaker 2: it gets more and more important. There's more more of 169 00:09:09,636 --> 00:09:12,916 Speaker 2: that unique idiosyncrasy in how people feel about each other, 170 00:09:13,316 --> 00:09:17,956 Speaker 2: and the consensus component goes down, so we actually agree 171 00:09:18,116 --> 00:09:22,316 Speaker 2: less and less about how appealing someone is as we 172 00:09:22,396 --> 00:09:25,716 Speaker 2: get to know them over a period of weeks and months. 173 00:09:25,756 --> 00:09:27,956 Speaker 1: That predicts is really interesting thing, which is that people 174 00:09:27,996 --> 00:09:29,756 Speaker 1: who might have been lucking out because they were really 175 00:09:29,836 --> 00:09:32,316 Speaker 1: high on the mate value than nines and tens. Well, 176 00:09:32,316 --> 00:09:34,476 Speaker 1: over a time, attractiveness gets less important. 177 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:37,716 Speaker 2: It seems like exactly, I like to think about summer camp. 178 00:09:37,756 --> 00:09:40,196 Speaker 2: I'm like from the East coast of the United States originally, 179 00:09:40,276 --> 00:09:43,516 Speaker 2: so you know, summer camp is in my DNA, And 180 00:09:43,676 --> 00:09:47,356 Speaker 2: if you imagine a bunch of heterosexual, mixed gender kids 181 00:09:47,356 --> 00:09:50,356 Speaker 2: going to summer camp, what's going to happen in June 182 00:09:50,996 --> 00:09:54,836 Speaker 2: is that the popular people, well, everybody will agree that 183 00:09:54,836 --> 00:09:57,076 Speaker 2: they're popular, and they'll have a lot of success. But 184 00:09:57,236 --> 00:09:59,036 Speaker 2: as all these folks get to know each other and 185 00:09:59,116 --> 00:10:02,636 Speaker 2: agreement goes down by the end of the summer, anything 186 00:10:02,636 --> 00:10:05,436 Speaker 2: can happen. Now it's like, well, the popular people, they're 187 00:10:05,436 --> 00:10:08,716 Speaker 2: not having the same success with everybody that they once had. 188 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:12,316 Speaker 2: And the people who were consentially not so attractive at 189 00:10:12,316 --> 00:10:15,796 Speaker 2: the beginning, well, maybe now there's somebody who has really 190 00:10:15,836 --> 00:10:18,636 Speaker 2: taken a liking to them that they might not have 191 00:10:18,716 --> 00:10:20,876 Speaker 2: been able to successfully attract engim. 192 00:10:21,316 --> 00:10:23,636 Speaker 1: So that's idea Number one that's wrong, that there's this 193 00:10:23,676 --> 00:10:25,596 Speaker 1: inherent built in may value. 194 00:10:25,756 --> 00:10:26,036 Speaker 2: Yeah. 195 00:10:26,076 --> 00:10:28,156 Speaker 1: A second one that you've talked about is this idea 196 00:10:28,156 --> 00:10:31,236 Speaker 1: of gender differences and how we look for mates. There's 197 00:10:31,276 --> 00:10:34,076 Speaker 1: things that, especially in heterosexual couples, that women want, and 198 00:10:34,116 --> 00:10:37,156 Speaker 1: there's things that guys want. Yeah, what's the typical idea 199 00:10:37,316 --> 00:10:38,356 Speaker 1: and what is it getting wrong? 200 00:10:38,516 --> 00:10:41,556 Speaker 2: I do think it's predicated on the idea that men 201 00:10:41,596 --> 00:10:46,636 Speaker 2: and women want really different things out of relationships, and 202 00:10:47,116 --> 00:10:51,036 Speaker 2: they're attracted to really different things. The classic studies in 203 00:10:51,076 --> 00:10:54,236 Speaker 2: this space ask men and women what kinds of attributes 204 00:10:54,276 --> 00:10:58,996 Speaker 2: they want in a romantic partner. So men are likely 205 00:10:59,036 --> 00:11:01,436 Speaker 2: to say that they care about attractiveness and a partner 206 00:11:01,516 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 2: more than women, and women are likely to say that 207 00:11:04,036 --> 00:11:07,236 Speaker 2: they care about things like earning potential in a partner 208 00:11:07,316 --> 00:11:10,876 Speaker 2: more than men. And when you give people rating scales 209 00:11:11,076 --> 00:11:13,636 Speaker 2: and you say rate these traits, how good are they? 210 00:11:14,236 --> 00:11:19,156 Speaker 2: You will reliably find those gender differences across many, many 211 00:11:19,196 --> 00:11:20,316 Speaker 2: countries throughout the world. 212 00:11:20,396 --> 00:11:22,196 Speaker 1: This also seems to mirror the kind of thing we 213 00:11:22,236 --> 00:11:23,836 Speaker 1: see in pop culture. I know you and I are 214 00:11:23,996 --> 00:11:26,596 Speaker 1: children of the nineties, and I watched you know, model 215 00:11:26,596 --> 00:11:30,196 Speaker 1: Anna Nicole Smith, Mary, some very rich billionaire who himself 216 00:11:30,276 --> 00:11:33,036 Speaker 1: was not that attractive. It also seems to play out 217 00:11:33,156 --> 00:11:35,996 Speaker 1: in some icky ways in online spaces, in ways that 218 00:11:36,036 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 1: are really problematic. 219 00:11:37,436 --> 00:11:42,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's a whole trad wife culture online. Part 220 00:11:42,956 --> 00:11:45,716 Speaker 2: of the trad wife idea is that there's nothing wrong 221 00:11:45,836 --> 00:11:48,316 Speaker 2: with wanting to be a homemaker and a child caretaker. 222 00:11:48,396 --> 00:11:50,796 Speaker 2: And look, I get that people should get to make 223 00:11:50,796 --> 00:11:53,476 Speaker 2: their own choices, but that's not the only thing that's 224 00:11:53,556 --> 00:11:56,716 Speaker 2: in this ideology. What is very much in there is 225 00:11:57,316 --> 00:12:03,316 Speaker 2: your beauty will translate into his success. So you need 226 00:12:03,356 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 2: to be attractive, be appealing, be feminine in the traditional 227 00:12:08,716 --> 00:12:12,516 Speaker 2: sense of the word, so that you can land the 228 00:12:12,636 --> 00:12:15,836 Speaker 2: right kind of provider. I mean, some of these ideas 229 00:12:15,876 --> 00:12:20,716 Speaker 2: about the differences between men and women get supercharged online 230 00:12:21,396 --> 00:12:25,436 Speaker 2: and infused with a lot of nastiness. So not only 231 00:12:25,716 --> 00:12:29,476 Speaker 2: are women out to land the most successful man that 232 00:12:29,516 --> 00:12:32,276 Speaker 2: she can get, but if you're going to be like 233 00:12:32,316 --> 00:12:35,556 Speaker 2: a useful stepping stone to her along the way, I mean, 234 00:12:35,596 --> 00:12:39,556 Speaker 2: it creates a lot of competitive us versus them ideas 235 00:12:40,076 --> 00:12:43,116 Speaker 2: about what men and women are like, and really promotes 236 00:12:43,156 --> 00:12:44,276 Speaker 2: a lot of misogyny. 237 00:12:44,516 --> 00:12:47,356 Speaker 1: So these original ideas about these gender differences were based 238 00:12:47,396 --> 00:12:50,316 Speaker 1: on these surveys, but new results have used a technique 239 00:12:50,356 --> 00:12:53,476 Speaker 1: that's not a survey. New results have used revealed preferences. 240 00:12:53,556 --> 00:12:55,556 Speaker 1: So what are revealed preferences and why are they better 241 00:12:55,596 --> 00:12:56,436 Speaker 1: than these surveys. 242 00:12:56,516 --> 00:12:58,676 Speaker 2: So the concept of the revealed preference is that, look, 243 00:12:58,996 --> 00:13:01,396 Speaker 2: I'm not going to ask you what you think about 244 00:13:01,436 --> 00:13:06,276 Speaker 2: these attributes in the abstract, disconnected from any particular person. 245 00:13:06,796 --> 00:13:10,476 Speaker 2: I want to see how you react to an attribute 246 00:13:10,516 --> 00:13:16,596 Speaker 2: like earning potential as it is instantiated by specific other people. 247 00:13:16,916 --> 00:13:20,156 Speaker 2: And we would do this using speed dating designs. This 248 00:13:20,276 --> 00:13:22,276 Speaker 2: is just one way to do it, but I think 249 00:13:22,276 --> 00:13:25,276 Speaker 2: it's the easiest one for folks to grasp. So let's 250 00:13:25,396 --> 00:13:28,716 Speaker 2: say I send you to a speed dating event, and 251 00:13:28,756 --> 00:13:30,396 Speaker 2: you're going to meet a bunch of other men at 252 00:13:30,396 --> 00:13:33,556 Speaker 2: the speed dating event, some of whom are ambitious and 253 00:13:33,636 --> 00:13:36,756 Speaker 2: some of whom are not. So rather than asking you 254 00:13:36,796 --> 00:13:38,796 Speaker 2: how much do you want ambition and a partner, I'm 255 00:13:38,836 --> 00:13:42,036 Speaker 2: going to see how much do you like the ambitious 256 00:13:42,036 --> 00:13:46,276 Speaker 2: guys more than the unambitious guys. That's your revealed preference 257 00:13:46,396 --> 00:13:49,796 Speaker 2: for ambition in an initial attraction context. 258 00:13:50,036 --> 00:13:51,956 Speaker 1: So what do we find when we really give people 259 00:13:52,076 --> 00:13:53,636 Speaker 1: actual humans to choose from? 260 00:13:53,796 --> 00:13:57,276 Speaker 2: If you send women speed dating, they do like the 261 00:13:57,356 --> 00:14:00,316 Speaker 2: ambitious men a little bit more, not a lot more, 262 00:14:00,356 --> 00:14:03,396 Speaker 2: but a little bit more than the unambitious ones. The 263 00:14:03,476 --> 00:14:05,916 Speaker 2: fascinating thing is what happens when you do the same 264 00:14:05,956 --> 00:14:09,796 Speaker 2: thing with men. Again, Men say they care about ambition 265 00:14:09,836 --> 00:14:13,396 Speaker 2: and a partner less than women do, but not when 266 00:14:13,396 --> 00:14:17,116 Speaker 2: it comes to their revealed preferences. They like the ambitious 267 00:14:17,156 --> 00:14:20,796 Speaker 2: women a little bit more than the unambitious ones, But 268 00:14:20,876 --> 00:14:24,516 Speaker 2: the revealed preference for men and women for an attribute 269 00:14:24,596 --> 00:14:27,716 Speaker 2: like ambition is really exactly the same. 270 00:14:27,796 --> 00:14:30,076 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's ambition. What about attractiveness? 271 00:14:30,236 --> 00:14:33,756 Speaker 2: People's revealed preference for attractiveness at a speed dating event 272 00:14:34,316 --> 00:14:37,356 Speaker 2: is strong. They like the attractive people more than the 273 00:14:37,436 --> 00:14:40,876 Speaker 2: unattractive people. That's this consensus component that we talked about. 274 00:14:41,596 --> 00:14:44,556 Speaker 2: Men like the attractive women more than the unattractive women 275 00:14:44,676 --> 00:14:48,436 Speaker 2: on average, but women also like the attractive men more 276 00:14:48,476 --> 00:14:52,916 Speaker 2: than the unattractive men on average, and again their revealed 277 00:14:52,956 --> 00:14:55,716 Speaker 2: preference is the same. So this really cued us into 278 00:14:55,716 --> 00:14:59,116 Speaker 2: the possibility that whoa, maybe when we look at these 279 00:14:59,156 --> 00:15:02,516 Speaker 2: differences and what men and women say they want, they're 280 00:15:02,516 --> 00:15:07,076 Speaker 2: not translating into their experienced preferences when they're out there 281 00:15:07,196 --> 00:15:08,316 Speaker 2: meeting real life people. 282 00:15:08,396 --> 00:15:11,196 Speaker 1: So that was scientist alleged FACTORID number two that were 283 00:15:11,196 --> 00:15:14,636 Speaker 1: getting wrong. Yeah, as gender differences, the third one is 284 00:15:14,716 --> 00:15:18,396 Speaker 1: about different kinds of relationships or the length of different 285 00:15:18,476 --> 00:15:21,196 Speaker 1: kinds of relationships. Evolutionary science has a lot to say 286 00:15:21,236 --> 00:15:23,676 Speaker 1: about who's good for a short term meat versus a 287 00:15:23,716 --> 00:15:26,476 Speaker 1: long term meat. What does the science usually say and 288 00:15:26,556 --> 00:15:27,396 Speaker 1: how is that wrong? 289 00:15:27,596 --> 00:15:31,476 Speaker 2: This distinction is tricky because there's a tendency to think 290 00:15:32,196 --> 00:15:37,876 Speaker 2: that if you're like a long term specialist, people aren't 291 00:15:37,876 --> 00:15:40,236 Speaker 2: going to be attracted to you in a sexy way, 292 00:15:40,396 --> 00:15:44,916 Speaker 2: and maybe even more pernicious, if you're somebody who's pretty 293 00:15:44,956 --> 00:15:48,316 Speaker 2: sexy and you've had a few sexual partners in your past, 294 00:15:48,876 --> 00:15:52,196 Speaker 2: that you won't be as good in the long term 295 00:15:52,276 --> 00:15:57,076 Speaker 2: realm as if people reside on like a slider between 296 00:15:57,396 --> 00:16:02,556 Speaker 2: short term desirability and long term desirability, and you kind 297 00:16:02,556 --> 00:16:05,836 Speaker 2: of got to pick which one fits your skills and abilities. 298 00:16:05,916 --> 00:16:07,916 Speaker 1: And so the idea is like for a heterosexual woman, 299 00:16:07,996 --> 00:16:10,516 Speaker 1: there are these guys who are like super hot guys 300 00:16:10,556 --> 00:16:12,476 Speaker 1: that you might want to have a one night stand with, yeah, 301 00:16:12,556 --> 00:16:14,916 Speaker 1: and then they're the very sensitive guys so you might 302 00:16:15,236 --> 00:16:17,276 Speaker 1: want to have a long term relationship with. But just 303 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:19,676 Speaker 1: like the other ideas of mate value, there's a kind 304 00:16:19,716 --> 00:16:22,396 Speaker 1: of romantic destiny built in there. You're either going to 305 00:16:22,396 --> 00:16:24,316 Speaker 1: be a short term mate or a long term one. 306 00:16:24,516 --> 00:16:27,796 Speaker 2: That's tough on both types of guys. So first of all, 307 00:16:27,876 --> 00:16:30,876 Speaker 2: the sexy one like he's not worth considering for a 308 00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:34,996 Speaker 2: long term relationship. But also these supposed long term guys, 309 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:39,556 Speaker 2: they're like not appreciated at all for anything sexual. This 310 00:16:39,636 --> 00:16:41,476 Speaker 2: sounds terrible on both fronts. 311 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:43,676 Speaker 1: It also seems to be another thing that leads to 312 00:16:43,676 --> 00:16:46,676 Speaker 1: a lot of misogyny online. Explain how this third idea 313 00:16:46,676 --> 00:16:48,276 Speaker 1: gets picked up at all those spaces. 314 00:16:48,356 --> 00:16:51,396 Speaker 2: So this got turned into a whole bunch of terms online. 315 00:16:51,476 --> 00:16:54,596 Speaker 2: I mean people have maybe heard the terms alpha and beta, 316 00:16:54,676 --> 00:16:59,876 Speaker 2: where alpha refers to the sexually desirable guy who supposedly 317 00:16:59,956 --> 00:17:03,996 Speaker 2: has all the sexual opportunities and the betas who kind 318 00:17:03,996 --> 00:17:06,956 Speaker 2: of weighed around for you know, maybe they try some 319 00:17:07,116 --> 00:17:10,356 Speaker 2: nice guy routines. They might try to gain a little 320 00:17:10,356 --> 00:17:13,036 Speaker 2: bit of status, a little bit of money, but that's 321 00:17:13,076 --> 00:17:15,436 Speaker 2: about the best that they can do, and they kind 322 00:17:15,436 --> 00:17:18,196 Speaker 2: of got to wait for the alpha guy to decide 323 00:17:18,316 --> 00:17:20,516 Speaker 2: which are the women that he wants, and you know 324 00:17:20,556 --> 00:17:21,636 Speaker 2: they'll pick up the rest. 325 00:17:22,036 --> 00:17:24,116 Speaker 1: So what does this third idea get right and what 326 00:17:24,236 --> 00:17:26,756 Speaker 1: is it really getting wrong about how real relationships work? 327 00:17:27,116 --> 00:17:32,876 Speaker 2: It gets one thing right, which is that attributes like 328 00:17:33,116 --> 00:17:38,796 Speaker 2: being sexy and confident are associated with having more sex partners, 329 00:17:39,036 --> 00:17:43,516 Speaker 2: with people being sexually interested in you, And it kind 330 00:17:43,516 --> 00:17:48,956 Speaker 2: of stops there. That's about it. Pretty Much everything else 331 00:17:48,996 --> 00:17:54,196 Speaker 2: about this idea is way off base, including and especially 332 00:17:54,356 --> 00:17:58,476 Speaker 2: the idea that something about a person's short term desirability 333 00:17:58,956 --> 00:18:03,516 Speaker 2: has anything to do at all with their long term desirability. 334 00:18:04,156 --> 00:18:07,116 Speaker 2: These ideas have been out there for a long time, like, oh, 335 00:18:07,196 --> 00:18:09,996 Speaker 2: if you have a longer sexual resume when you're younger, 336 00:18:10,276 --> 00:18:13,556 Speaker 2: you're more likely to get divorced or your marriage is 337 00:18:13,596 --> 00:18:16,436 Speaker 2: going to be bad. Your desirability as a short term 338 00:18:16,516 --> 00:18:19,916 Speaker 2: partner really has no bearing one way or the other 339 00:18:20,076 --> 00:18:21,996 Speaker 2: on how you're going to do in the long term. 340 00:18:22,236 --> 00:18:24,916 Speaker 1: So it turns out that many many science y sounding 341 00:18:24,956 --> 00:18:28,476 Speaker 1: ideas about love and attraction that stuff that influencers online 342 00:18:28,556 --> 00:18:31,476 Speaker 1: often use to make sense of relationships, they just don't 343 00:18:31,476 --> 00:18:35,396 Speaker 1: match what the relationship science really shows. But humans are 344 00:18:35,436 --> 00:18:38,556 Speaker 1: the product of natural selection, So what does evolutionary science 345 00:18:38,676 --> 00:18:41,676 Speaker 1: really predict about relationships? Paul and I will tackle that 346 00:18:41,796 --> 00:18:58,036 Speaker 1: question when The Happiness Lab returns after the break. Doctor 347 00:18:58,076 --> 00:19:01,716 Speaker 1: Paul Eastwick's new book, Bonded by Evolution challenges the idea 348 00:19:01,756 --> 00:19:04,716 Speaker 1: that human attraction is based on the one dimensional concept 349 00:19:04,756 --> 00:19:08,356 Speaker 1: of mate value. Instead, Paul argues that attraction depends a 350 00:19:08,396 --> 00:19:11,876 Speaker 1: lot more on what he calls romantic compatibility, the factors 351 00:19:11,876 --> 00:19:14,676 Speaker 1: that allow two people to work together long term. 352 00:19:15,076 --> 00:19:18,036 Speaker 2: So I think it's very important to realize that we 353 00:19:18,156 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 2: lived in small groups and you had to build what 354 00:19:22,436 --> 00:19:25,876 Speaker 2: sometimes anthropologists called pair bonds. You had to build a 355 00:19:25,916 --> 00:19:29,676 Speaker 2: bond with somebody else for the purpose of raising these 356 00:19:29,876 --> 00:19:34,436 Speaker 2: very helpless offspring. I mean human offspring take a long 357 00:19:34,596 --> 00:19:38,076 Speaker 2: time to raise to reproductive age, a very long time. 358 00:19:38,476 --> 00:19:43,076 Speaker 2: It's the better part of two decades before kids in 359 00:19:43,276 --> 00:19:46,316 Speaker 2: hunter gatherer contexts are able to bring in as many 360 00:19:46,356 --> 00:19:49,196 Speaker 2: calories as they consume, so they take a lot of work. 361 00:19:49,676 --> 00:19:54,636 Speaker 2: And this is presumably why humans evolve the capacity to 362 00:19:54,676 --> 00:19:58,596 Speaker 2: bond with each other in a bond. What matters a 363 00:19:58,636 --> 00:20:03,116 Speaker 2: lot more than like, oh, you're desirable, you have all 364 00:20:03,156 --> 00:20:05,676 Speaker 2: the right abilities and skills and traits and attributes. What 365 00:20:05,716 --> 00:20:08,876 Speaker 2: matters a lot more is do we work well together? 366 00:20:09,436 --> 00:20:14,716 Speaker 2: Are we coordinated? Scientists use terms like interdependence, right, what 367 00:20:14,916 --> 00:20:18,116 Speaker 2: is it like when we work together? Do things work smoothly? 368 00:20:18,476 --> 00:20:20,956 Speaker 2: Or are things pretty difficult? And we don't actually get 369 00:20:20,956 --> 00:20:24,756 Speaker 2: along that well. So I think these ideas form the 370 00:20:24,796 --> 00:20:28,596 Speaker 2: core of what we mean by compatibility and capture why 371 00:20:28,596 --> 00:20:29,316 Speaker 2: it's so important. 372 00:20:29,356 --> 00:20:31,596 Speaker 1: We also seem to have all these psychological quirks that 373 00:20:31,636 --> 00:20:35,036 Speaker 1: help us build compatibility. Sometimes biases that are pretty give 374 00:20:35,076 --> 00:20:36,076 Speaker 1: me some examples of these. 375 00:20:36,476 --> 00:20:41,156 Speaker 2: So, for example, on average and ongoing close relationships, people 376 00:20:41,196 --> 00:20:46,836 Speaker 2: feel very positively about their partners, and when somebody might 377 00:20:46,876 --> 00:20:49,596 Speaker 2: point out to them some of the shortcomings that their 378 00:20:49,636 --> 00:20:55,996 Speaker 2: partners might have, we're really good at compartmentalizing those shortcomings, right, like, yes, 379 00:20:56,076 --> 00:20:58,116 Speaker 2: she's a little bit messy, but I don't know. This 380 00:20:58,316 --> 00:21:01,916 Speaker 2: just kind of makes our home life exciting. And these 381 00:21:01,956 --> 00:21:06,676 Speaker 2: things are really important for maintaining that sense that your 382 00:21:06,716 --> 00:21:10,276 Speaker 2: relationship is valuable and you want to put in effort 383 00:21:10,476 --> 00:21:14,276 Speaker 2: to keep it going. As a relationship builds, people end 384 00:21:14,396 --> 00:21:17,116 Speaker 2: up doing this more and more. It's kind of a 385 00:21:17,276 --> 00:21:20,636 Speaker 2: core piece of what it means to form and maintain 386 00:21:20,676 --> 00:21:23,916 Speaker 2: a relationship is that you see your partner in the 387 00:21:23,956 --> 00:21:26,596 Speaker 2: best possible light and that you're motivated to keep the 388 00:21:26,756 --> 00:21:28,076 Speaker 2: relationship moving forward. 389 00:21:28,116 --> 00:21:30,276 Speaker 1: That's what happens when we think about our partners in 390 00:21:30,316 --> 00:21:33,196 Speaker 1: these motivated ways. What happens when we think about alternatives. 391 00:21:33,476 --> 00:21:36,196 Speaker 2: We worry a lot about alternative partners that they could 392 00:21:36,196 --> 00:21:39,076 Speaker 2: pull us away from the person that we're currently in 393 00:21:39,076 --> 00:21:44,396 Speaker 2: a relationship with, and alternatives can certainly do that. People 394 00:21:44,636 --> 00:21:47,356 Speaker 2: do sometimes have wandering eyes, but we have all of 395 00:21:47,396 --> 00:21:51,396 Speaker 2: these defense mechanisms built in that prevent us from even 396 00:21:51,596 --> 00:21:56,956 Speaker 2: noticing that potential romantic partners are right there waiting for us. 397 00:21:57,316 --> 00:22:00,196 Speaker 2: One of my favorite studies in this space looks at 398 00:22:00,196 --> 00:22:05,636 Speaker 2: the mental images that people in relationships make about possible 399 00:22:05,676 --> 00:22:08,516 Speaker 2: alternative partners. There are these neat techniques where you can 400 00:22:08,556 --> 00:22:11,716 Speaker 2: get a little picture on the screen of what they 401 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:15,436 Speaker 2: were thinking of. Were they thinking about somebody attractive or unattractive? 402 00:22:15,716 --> 00:22:18,756 Speaker 2: And it turns out, if you're in a relationship, when 403 00:22:18,796 --> 00:22:24,156 Speaker 2: you imagine other potential partners, you literally imagine somebody who 404 00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:28,756 Speaker 2: is less attractive than what single people imagine in their heads. 405 00:22:29,036 --> 00:22:32,516 Speaker 2: So that's just one of an array of different effects 406 00:22:32,516 --> 00:22:37,316 Speaker 2: that demonstrate that people at a baseline level seem motivated 407 00:22:37,396 --> 00:22:40,756 Speaker 2: to keep alternative partners at bay as a way of 408 00:22:40,876 --> 00:22:42,836 Speaker 2: preserving their current relationship. 409 00:22:43,156 --> 00:22:45,996 Speaker 1: So when it comes to relationships, compatibility matters a lot. 410 00:22:46,036 --> 00:22:49,116 Speaker 1: We have all these mechanisms once compatibility starts to keep 411 00:22:49,156 --> 00:22:51,996 Speaker 1: building it up, but that just raises a really important question, 412 00:22:51,996 --> 00:22:55,396 Speaker 1: which is where does compatibility come from. I think one 413 00:22:55,516 --> 00:22:58,516 Speaker 1: idea that most people have is that compatibility comes from 414 00:22:58,796 --> 00:23:00,676 Speaker 1: people who are like us. You like the people who 415 00:23:00,756 --> 00:23:02,516 Speaker 1: are like you. What does evidence say? 416 00:23:02,596 --> 00:23:07,956 Speaker 2: It seems intuitive that we'd be especially attracted to others 417 00:23:07,996 --> 00:23:10,236 Speaker 2: who are similar to us, and this was one of 418 00:23:10,276 --> 00:23:13,276 Speaker 2: the big challenges we confronted. We documented that there was 419 00:23:13,476 --> 00:23:16,636 Speaker 2: all of this compatibility that you could see in attraction context. 420 00:23:16,836 --> 00:23:20,556 Speaker 2: It's even bigger if you look at ongoing acquaintances, friendships, 421 00:23:20,556 --> 00:23:24,156 Speaker 2: and close relationships. So we got to explain it. We 422 00:23:24,236 --> 00:23:27,276 Speaker 2: got to explain why these two people are compatible and 423 00:23:27,316 --> 00:23:30,716 Speaker 2: why other pairs are not. So we looked to see, well, 424 00:23:30,756 --> 00:23:34,636 Speaker 2: maybe it is about similarity. Let's calculate similarity across all 425 00:23:34,676 --> 00:23:37,836 Speaker 2: of these different dimensions, ask people about their deal breakers, 426 00:23:38,036 --> 00:23:41,316 Speaker 2: and see if we can account for compatibility that way, 427 00:23:41,396 --> 00:23:43,836 Speaker 2: And it turned out it did pretty badly. It was 428 00:23:43,916 --> 00:23:49,156 Speaker 2: surprising how poorly similarity fared at predicting compatibility. We tried 429 00:23:49,236 --> 00:23:52,836 Speaker 2: other forms of matching two like oh, ask people about 430 00:23:52,836 --> 00:23:55,716 Speaker 2: their deal breakers, and those didn't really go anywhere either. 431 00:23:56,676 --> 00:24:00,516 Speaker 2: I think part of The problem here is that because 432 00:24:00,556 --> 00:24:04,156 Speaker 2: of where we live, because of how we are sorted 433 00:24:04,596 --> 00:24:09,356 Speaker 2: into different social situations, were often surrounded by people who 434 00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:12,956 Speaker 2: are similar to us. We're surrounded by people who fit 435 00:24:13,036 --> 00:24:16,116 Speaker 2: our idea on average of you know, what we really 436 00:24:16,116 --> 00:24:19,276 Speaker 2: want somebody else to have, and so we end up 437 00:24:19,396 --> 00:24:22,276 Speaker 2: thinking we really care about these things, but in large 438 00:24:22,316 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 2: part we're really reflecting the social miliu that we're in. 439 00:24:26,316 --> 00:24:28,996 Speaker 1: So it might look like I really want a partner 440 00:24:29,076 --> 00:24:31,716 Speaker 1: who's smart like me and a professor like me, but 441 00:24:31,796 --> 00:24:34,076 Speaker 1: in practice, at the university, the only people I'm ever 442 00:24:34,076 --> 00:24:36,436 Speaker 1: going to meet is a professor who's smart like me. 443 00:24:36,596 --> 00:24:39,036 Speaker 2: That's right, and then you and that was somebody like that. 444 00:24:39,156 --> 00:24:42,636 Speaker 2: Oh look, similarity predicts attraction. Well, the challenge is that 445 00:24:42,716 --> 00:24:48,196 Speaker 2: with in your millu more versus less, similarity isn't mattering, 446 00:24:48,476 --> 00:24:51,836 Speaker 2: which means it can't explain why there's so much going 447 00:24:51,876 --> 00:24:55,596 Speaker 2: on with respect to compatibility in your social environment. Why 448 00:24:55,676 --> 00:24:58,196 Speaker 2: even in your social environment, you're really going to click 449 00:24:58,236 --> 00:25:00,116 Speaker 2: with a couple people but not most people. 450 00:25:00,436 --> 00:25:01,956 Speaker 1: I want to pick on up on something else. You 451 00:25:01,996 --> 00:25:03,956 Speaker 1: just said this idea of deal breakers, because I think 452 00:25:03,956 --> 00:25:06,796 Speaker 1: this is another thing that people think in terms of compatibility. 453 00:25:06,796 --> 00:25:08,556 Speaker 1: I think this is something that the internet and online 454 00:25:08,636 --> 00:25:11,436 Speaker 1: dating is they made worse. This idea that like, well, 455 00:25:11,516 --> 00:25:14,676 Speaker 1: my partner has to be tall, oh gosh, he has 456 00:25:14,716 --> 00:25:18,076 Speaker 1: to really like podcasts whatever, and if he didn't like podcasts, 457 00:25:18,236 --> 00:25:21,396 Speaker 1: what would you do? Is like a major red flag, right. 458 00:25:21,796 --> 00:25:24,556 Speaker 1: But when we actually look at whether people's theories work, 459 00:25:24,676 --> 00:25:26,356 Speaker 1: do they work as well as people assume? 460 00:25:26,516 --> 00:25:29,636 Speaker 2: No? I mean, we tried other forms of matching too, 461 00:25:29,996 --> 00:25:33,556 Speaker 2: like are you ultimately more attractive to people who fit 462 00:25:33,916 --> 00:25:36,596 Speaker 2: your idea of these deal break or qualities that you 463 00:25:36,796 --> 00:25:39,476 Speaker 2: just have to have? Well, that didn't work all that 464 00:25:39,556 --> 00:25:40,156 Speaker 2: well either. 465 00:25:40,436 --> 00:25:42,196 Speaker 1: So this seems to be really damning for the way 466 00:25:42,196 --> 00:25:45,076 Speaker 1: that a lot of online tools really help us out. 467 00:25:45,116 --> 00:25:46,956 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what these algorithms are, but 468 00:25:46,996 --> 00:25:50,516 Speaker 1: apparently a lot of these matching services online have like, 469 00:25:50,916 --> 00:25:52,876 Speaker 1: you know, some sort of big machine learning that they're 470 00:25:52,956 --> 00:25:55,836 Speaker 1: using to figure out what my compatibility is. Are these 471 00:25:55,876 --> 00:25:57,916 Speaker 1: things just more bs than we think? 472 00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:01,476 Speaker 2: Well? You know, it's funny because my colleague, doctor Samantha 473 00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:04,676 Speaker 2: Joel ran some studies like this not long ago, and 474 00:26:04,716 --> 00:26:09,116 Speaker 2: it was basically a perfect facsimile of what these online days, 475 00:26:09,636 --> 00:26:12,956 Speaker 2: apps and companies could be doing. I've got a trove 476 00:26:13,036 --> 00:26:16,516 Speaker 2: of information about you and a trove of information about 477 00:26:16,516 --> 00:26:19,516 Speaker 2: a bunch of other people. Things you report about yourself 478 00:26:19,556 --> 00:26:22,676 Speaker 2: ahead of time, trades, attributes, preferences, what have you. She 479 00:26:23,156 --> 00:26:26,516 Speaker 2: used the algorithms to try to match people up to 480 00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:30,316 Speaker 2: try to predict who's going to click especially well with whom, 481 00:26:30,996 --> 00:26:34,916 Speaker 2: and she was able to predict absolutely nothing. 482 00:26:35,556 --> 00:26:37,316 Speaker 1: That's pretty depressing for big data. 483 00:26:37,356 --> 00:26:39,516 Speaker 2: And I do want to be clear, like you repoor 484 00:26:39,596 --> 00:26:41,676 Speaker 2: things about yourself ahead of time. We can predict whether 485 00:26:41,796 --> 00:26:45,156 Speaker 2: you yourself are selective or you yourself are popular, but 486 00:26:45,236 --> 00:26:47,876 Speaker 2: it's the matching, right, I can't figure out who are 487 00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:50,396 Speaker 2: the pairs that are going to work very well together. 488 00:26:51,196 --> 00:26:54,476 Speaker 2: This was the realization for me that we just have 489 00:26:54,596 --> 00:26:58,436 Speaker 2: a broken idea about where compatibility comes from, and we 490 00:26:58,556 --> 00:27:00,916 Speaker 2: got to radically reorient how we think. 491 00:27:00,796 --> 00:27:04,036 Speaker 1: About this, and so your book provides that radical reorientation. 492 00:27:04,196 --> 00:27:08,196 Speaker 1: You talk about compatibility as being a so called creative chaos. 493 00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:11,236 Speaker 2: What do you mean there, Well, there's two components there. 494 00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:15,396 Speaker 2: The creative part is the idea that it's built, that 495 00:27:15,476 --> 00:27:20,636 Speaker 2: it's constructed. That a lot of what compatibility is and 496 00:27:20,676 --> 00:27:25,556 Speaker 2: where it comes from takes place in sequences of interactions 497 00:27:26,076 --> 00:27:30,316 Speaker 2: that unfold over time. We found that we really hit 498 00:27:30,356 --> 00:27:32,676 Speaker 2: it off at a party the other day, you know, 499 00:27:32,836 --> 00:27:35,916 Speaker 2: chatting about rom coms, for example, one of my favorite topics. 500 00:27:36,596 --> 00:27:39,716 Speaker 2: And so when I see you at the bar next time, 501 00:27:40,556 --> 00:27:43,276 Speaker 2: I might sit next to you and try to see 502 00:27:43,276 --> 00:27:46,676 Speaker 2: if I can spark up a similar conversation or taken 503 00:27:46,716 --> 00:27:49,276 Speaker 2: in a different direction to see if that's enjoyable too. 504 00:27:49,796 --> 00:27:53,636 Speaker 2: Now repeat that process a thousand times. That's what I 505 00:27:53,716 --> 00:27:57,316 Speaker 2: mean by created. We have to engage other people in 506 00:27:57,596 --> 00:28:01,356 Speaker 2: series of interactions and kind of see what it is 507 00:28:01,356 --> 00:28:04,316 Speaker 2: that we can bond over. And the number of things 508 00:28:04,356 --> 00:28:09,036 Speaker 2: that people can bond over, in principle is very, very long. 509 00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:13,276 Speaker 2: Ar I think that's why it's so hard to predict 510 00:28:13,476 --> 00:28:16,116 Speaker 2: who's going to find compatibility ahead of time. 511 00:28:16,396 --> 00:28:18,956 Speaker 1: You've talked about this process as being one of growing 512 00:28:18,996 --> 00:28:20,636 Speaker 1: over time, which I think is a notion that we 513 00:28:20,716 --> 00:28:23,276 Speaker 1: have that relationships can strengthen over time. But I think 514 00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:25,876 Speaker 1: we forget that this temporal element is such a huge 515 00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:26,716 Speaker 1: part of it. 516 00:28:26,716 --> 00:28:30,756 Speaker 2: It's a huge part of it, and it starts early. Now, look, 517 00:28:30,996 --> 00:28:32,996 Speaker 2: some of this is luck, and that's what I mean 518 00:28:33,036 --> 00:28:36,076 Speaker 2: by the chaotic component. Two. And when we watch the 519 00:28:36,116 --> 00:28:40,716 Speaker 2: speed dates that we conducted several years ago. Boy, it's 520 00:28:40,956 --> 00:28:45,436 Speaker 2: just people struggling to find things to connect over, and 521 00:28:45,596 --> 00:28:49,236 Speaker 2: sometimes they get lucky. They just hit on some weird, 522 00:28:49,356 --> 00:28:51,956 Speaker 2: random thing that they have in common and they kind 523 00:28:51,956 --> 00:28:55,116 Speaker 2: of spin it off from there. So it's not similarity 524 00:28:55,196 --> 00:28:58,236 Speaker 2: in the traditional sense, like oh, my personality needs to 525 00:28:58,276 --> 00:29:00,316 Speaker 2: match yours, or even you need to fit what I'm 526 00:29:00,316 --> 00:29:03,276 Speaker 2: looking for in a partner. It's much more about like, 527 00:29:03,556 --> 00:29:06,996 Speaker 2: did we just get a little bit lucky, a little 528 00:29:07,076 --> 00:29:10,316 Speaker 2: moment of serendipity where we hit on something and then 529 00:29:10,356 --> 00:29:13,596 Speaker 2: we were able to keep building off of it over time. 530 00:29:14,036 --> 00:29:17,796 Speaker 2: And the couples that are able to do that are 531 00:29:17,796 --> 00:29:20,276 Speaker 2: the ones that are most likely to be able to 532 00:29:20,276 --> 00:29:21,236 Speaker 2: find something together. 533 00:29:22,556 --> 00:29:25,636 Speaker 1: So scientifically speaking, may value is out and the creative 534 00:29:25,716 --> 00:29:28,356 Speaker 1: chaos of compatibility is in. But how do you find 535 00:29:28,396 --> 00:29:31,156 Speaker 1: the right person to build that meaningful connection with. We'll 536 00:29:31,196 --> 00:29:33,756 Speaker 1: explore that question, along with the science of the friend 537 00:29:33,836 --> 00:29:37,916 Speaker 1: zone and Paul's optimism about Tinder when the Happiness Lab returns. 538 00:29:38,076 --> 00:29:55,236 Speaker 1: In a moment before the Break, social psychologist Paul Eastwick 539 00:29:55,396 --> 00:29:59,436 Speaker 1: explained that romantic compatibility often builds slowly over time, but 540 00:29:59,516 --> 00:30:02,676 Speaker 1: Paul's explanation also implies that we may be able to 541 00:30:02,716 --> 00:30:05,156 Speaker 1: fall in love with far more people than we think. 542 00:30:05,476 --> 00:30:08,436 Speaker 1: And if that's true, what does that mean for modern dating? 543 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:11,236 Speaker 2: If you take some of these ideas to the extreme, 544 00:30:11,316 --> 00:30:14,716 Speaker 2: I find it exciting, if not a little outlandish. What 545 00:30:14,956 --> 00:30:18,076 Speaker 2: I am suggesting to some extent is that boy, we 546 00:30:18,356 --> 00:30:23,636 Speaker 2: underestimate the extent to which we can be compatible with 547 00:30:23,996 --> 00:30:27,836 Speaker 2: a lot of different people. And I know anybody who 548 00:30:27,916 --> 00:30:31,036 Speaker 2: is using the apps right now might be tempted to 549 00:30:31,276 --> 00:30:34,396 Speaker 2: throw this podcast into the ocean, thinking what are you 550 00:30:34,516 --> 00:30:37,796 Speaker 2: talking about? Can I please tell you about the horrible 551 00:30:37,876 --> 00:30:42,036 Speaker 2: dates I've been on recently? And my answer to that 552 00:30:42,316 --> 00:30:45,596 Speaker 2: is that I think the apps are leading us astray 553 00:30:45,636 --> 00:30:48,236 Speaker 2: in a few ways. First of all, they really encourage 554 00:30:48,276 --> 00:30:51,916 Speaker 2: the resume date. Okay, the resume date where you sit 555 00:30:51,996 --> 00:30:54,476 Speaker 2: down and you share a bunch of facts and figures. 556 00:30:54,836 --> 00:30:59,236 Speaker 2: That is really not what I'm talking about. And another 557 00:30:59,316 --> 00:31:04,836 Speaker 2: problem is that on the apps we're expecting sparks very 558 00:31:04,916 --> 00:31:09,036 Speaker 2: very quickly. Keep in mind, in the environments that historically 559 00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:12,396 Speaker 2: people have found partners, you were getting to know these 560 00:31:12,396 --> 00:31:14,956 Speaker 2: people over time, kind of whether you wanted to or not. 561 00:31:15,156 --> 00:31:17,876 Speaker 2: You didn't have the option to bail after a bad 562 00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:20,956 Speaker 2: first impression, like this person was gonna be around for 563 00:31:20,996 --> 00:31:23,836 Speaker 2: a long time, so you were gonna have other opportunities 564 00:31:23,836 --> 00:31:26,196 Speaker 2: to interact, and maybe the luck doesn't happen on the 565 00:31:26,196 --> 00:31:28,036 Speaker 2: first interaction, maybe it happens on the eighth. 566 00:31:28,156 --> 00:31:29,876 Speaker 1: It also seems like there's all kinds of other things 567 00:31:29,956 --> 00:31:33,276 Speaker 1: about online dating that maybe mess with this process of compatibility. 568 00:31:33,276 --> 00:31:35,876 Speaker 1: One big one seems to be just how many options 569 00:31:35,916 --> 00:31:38,876 Speaker 1: we have. Talk about how the choice overload might prevent 570 00:31:38,956 --> 00:31:41,476 Speaker 1: this compatibility development process from sticking. 571 00:31:41,996 --> 00:31:43,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is part of the issue too. 572 00:31:44,076 --> 00:31:46,836 Speaker 2: It's just there's so many options out there and you 573 00:31:47,116 --> 00:31:51,036 Speaker 2: feel like you could be doing better, and I think 574 00:31:51,116 --> 00:31:55,516 Speaker 2: that makes it very tempting for people to bail quickly 575 00:31:56,036 --> 00:31:59,036 Speaker 2: or to just go on a lot of first dates. 576 00:31:59,276 --> 00:32:02,836 Speaker 2: If I were giving advice to people who are going 577 00:32:02,876 --> 00:32:06,556 Speaker 2: to keep using the apps, and I understand why people 578 00:32:06,636 --> 00:32:10,436 Speaker 2: are reluctant to totally ditch them, but if we're going 579 00:32:10,476 --> 00:32:14,116 Speaker 2: to give people advice, it would be look, try to 580 00:32:14,516 --> 00:32:18,436 Speaker 2: date from a larger pool of folks, Try to open 581 00:32:18,516 --> 00:32:20,836 Speaker 2: up the aperture a little bit for who you're willing 582 00:32:20,876 --> 00:32:25,636 Speaker 2: to consider, and be willing to give people a second 583 00:32:25,796 --> 00:32:29,956 Speaker 2: or a third chance, rather than bailing after a single 584 00:32:30,676 --> 00:32:34,636 Speaker 2: ten minute resume exchange over coffee. I think if people 585 00:32:34,676 --> 00:32:37,556 Speaker 2: do that, they might find themselves having a little bit 586 00:32:37,556 --> 00:32:40,836 Speaker 2: more fun meeting some more interesting outside the box people, 587 00:32:41,076 --> 00:32:43,996 Speaker 2: and might stand a better chance of finding something meaningful. 588 00:32:44,236 --> 00:32:48,676 Speaker 2: But my advice generally speaking is that look, if there's 589 00:32:48,876 --> 00:32:52,516 Speaker 2: something that grabs you about a particular person from what 590 00:32:52,636 --> 00:32:56,196 Speaker 2: you can tell online or by texting ahead of time, 591 00:32:56,556 --> 00:33:00,196 Speaker 2: it's perhaps worth checking out, even if the person doesn't 592 00:33:00,236 --> 00:33:01,756 Speaker 2: line up in a bunch of other ways. And I 593 00:33:01,756 --> 00:33:03,956 Speaker 2: think the part that I worry about the most is 594 00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:07,316 Speaker 2: ruling people out, maybe because I don't know, like they 595 00:33:07,316 --> 00:33:10,036 Speaker 2: don't have exactly the right level of it education or 596 00:33:10,076 --> 00:33:12,276 Speaker 2: what is this job exactly, And I'm not clear on 597 00:33:12,316 --> 00:33:15,316 Speaker 2: what this is, worrying about things like oh, what will 598 00:33:15,316 --> 00:33:17,356 Speaker 2: it be like when I introduce him or her to 599 00:33:17,396 --> 00:33:21,196 Speaker 2: my friends? I would just advise people, if there's something 600 00:33:21,276 --> 00:33:25,276 Speaker 2: interesting about this person, it's worth giving them an extra 601 00:33:25,356 --> 00:33:26,516 Speaker 2: shot just to know. 602 00:33:26,676 --> 00:33:29,116 Speaker 1: You've also argued that we need to remember just how 603 00:33:29,196 --> 00:33:31,676 Speaker 1: much these apps are taking us away from the environment 604 00:33:31,756 --> 00:33:34,316 Speaker 1: in which we normally make these decisions. We're looking at 605 00:33:34,316 --> 00:33:38,796 Speaker 1: text and photos and our ancestors looked at real humans 606 00:33:38,836 --> 00:33:41,316 Speaker 1: in the real world. Are there any ways to move 607 00:33:41,396 --> 00:33:44,276 Speaker 1: the apps more in this direction of kind of dating 608 00:33:44,316 --> 00:33:45,556 Speaker 1: in a community based way. 609 00:33:45,716 --> 00:33:48,796 Speaker 2: That's my big hope. And you know, it seems silly, 610 00:33:48,836 --> 00:33:51,276 Speaker 2: but in retrospect, I mean, that's what we thought Tinder 611 00:33:51,356 --> 00:33:54,556 Speaker 2: was going to do. We thought that the idea was like, Oh, 612 00:33:54,556 --> 00:33:57,436 Speaker 2: people are going to get together more spontaneously. It's going 613 00:33:57,516 --> 00:34:01,996 Speaker 2: to encourage more socialization among acquaintances and friends of friends 614 00:34:02,036 --> 00:34:03,516 Speaker 2: and how great is this going to be? And this 615 00:34:03,556 --> 00:34:08,236 Speaker 2: is not what happened at all. So socializing with people 616 00:34:08,316 --> 00:34:12,076 Speaker 2: you only kind to know, boy, has that become a 617 00:34:12,156 --> 00:34:16,036 Speaker 2: lost art? And I think for people who are single 618 00:34:16,076 --> 00:34:22,316 Speaker 2: and looking, it is worth redeveloping that muscle because in 619 00:34:22,396 --> 00:34:26,836 Speaker 2: many cases, this is how relationships have historically formed. This 620 00:34:26,996 --> 00:34:32,076 Speaker 2: is how our social minds organize other people. Right, Oh, 621 00:34:32,196 --> 00:34:34,236 Speaker 2: you know this person, let me introduce the two of you. 622 00:34:34,396 --> 00:34:37,956 Speaker 2: Here's something that you could chat about. These things are 623 00:34:38,076 --> 00:34:41,116 Speaker 2: often very, very helpful for people. And it means that 624 00:34:41,196 --> 00:34:45,116 Speaker 2: you don't need to be stunning or super confident or 625 00:34:45,156 --> 00:34:49,436 Speaker 2: an incredible conversationalist from moment one, because you're just kind 626 00:34:49,476 --> 00:34:52,596 Speaker 2: of hanging out with other people. I would love to 627 00:34:52,676 --> 00:34:57,196 Speaker 2: see more apps encouraging interactions like that. I'm not an 628 00:34:57,276 --> 00:35:00,556 Speaker 2: app developer, so I don't exactly know how that gets done. 629 00:35:01,036 --> 00:35:05,596 Speaker 2: But boy, you know, the intramural sports leagues for twenty somethings, 630 00:35:05,836 --> 00:35:08,396 Speaker 2: the cooking classes, all of these things I think can 631 00:35:08,436 --> 00:35:12,796 Speaker 2: be a really useful way of supplementing the apps for 632 00:35:12,836 --> 00:35:13,716 Speaker 2: people who are single. 633 00:35:14,036 --> 00:35:15,716 Speaker 1: I was really struck by that. In your book, you 634 00:35:15,716 --> 00:35:18,076 Speaker 1: had this notion that if you could give your past 635 00:35:18,116 --> 00:35:20,596 Speaker 1: self some advice, it would be stop thinking about where 636 00:35:20,596 --> 00:35:22,396 Speaker 1: you go to meet someone to date and just be 637 00:35:22,476 --> 00:35:23,716 Speaker 1: around people period. 638 00:35:23,996 --> 00:35:27,036 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I was like, well, I guess maybe 639 00:35:27,076 --> 00:35:30,996 Speaker 2: I'll like try to have some sparkling conversation with a stranger. 640 00:35:31,436 --> 00:35:33,796 Speaker 2: I mean, the movies kind of sell these ideas from 641 00:35:33,836 --> 00:35:36,236 Speaker 2: time to time. It is not one of my favorite tropes, 642 00:35:36,596 --> 00:35:38,956 Speaker 2: but I just thought, like, you know, the right pickup 643 00:35:38,996 --> 00:35:41,876 Speaker 2: line is gonna do it, And what I should have 644 00:35:41,876 --> 00:35:44,756 Speaker 2: been doing is just hanging out with friends and you 645 00:35:44,836 --> 00:35:46,916 Speaker 2: see where the night takes you and you meet a 646 00:35:46,916 --> 00:35:51,196 Speaker 2: few new interesting people. But these things take time, and 647 00:35:51,636 --> 00:35:54,276 Speaker 2: that can be a real bummer to hear. If you 648 00:35:54,356 --> 00:35:56,756 Speaker 2: feel like your networks are kind of stale and you're 649 00:35:56,796 --> 00:36:00,156 Speaker 2: single and there's really no prospects. I totally get it. 650 00:36:00,236 --> 00:36:05,716 Speaker 2: I have absolutely been there. Luckily, socializing with other people 651 00:36:06,036 --> 00:36:09,116 Speaker 2: is enjoyable in and of itself, even if it doesn't 652 00:36:09,116 --> 00:36:12,396 Speaker 2: and immediately lead to a romantic connection. 653 00:36:12,636 --> 00:36:14,796 Speaker 1: You've also talked about how we got to get outside 654 00:36:14,796 --> 00:36:17,836 Speaker 1: this idea of the romantic connection period, that we might 655 00:36:17,876 --> 00:36:20,516 Speaker 1: need to embrace the friend zone. What do you mean there? 656 00:36:20,596 --> 00:36:22,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I mean this one's funny. You know, the 657 00:36:22,636 --> 00:36:25,596 Speaker 2: friend zone comes from Friends, right, Originally it was from 658 00:36:25,636 --> 00:36:28,556 Speaker 2: the TV show Friends. It was about Ross and Rachel. 659 00:36:28,636 --> 00:36:31,156 Speaker 2: So I'll describe it with respect to Ross and Rachel. 660 00:36:31,396 --> 00:36:35,236 Speaker 2: At this early point in the show, Ross is trying 661 00:36:35,236 --> 00:36:38,476 Speaker 2: to avoid being in the friend zone. Right, Ross has 662 00:36:38,516 --> 00:36:42,516 Speaker 2: a thing for Rachel. Rachel doesn't really feel that way 663 00:36:42,556 --> 00:36:45,156 Speaker 2: about Ross. We all know where this ultimately goes, but 664 00:36:45,596 --> 00:36:48,276 Speaker 2: at this point in the show, Ross is in the 665 00:36:48,316 --> 00:36:53,396 Speaker 2: friend zone and this is considered dangerous. It's dangerous because 666 00:36:53,916 --> 00:36:57,556 Speaker 2: he might turn into this sort of sniveling nice guy 667 00:36:58,436 --> 00:37:02,636 Speaker 2: and she's gonna take advantage of him. And boy is 668 00:37:02,636 --> 00:37:06,036 Speaker 2: there a lot of advice online two men about how 669 00:37:06,076 --> 00:37:08,476 Speaker 2: you need to avoid this and being friends with women 670 00:37:08,716 --> 00:37:11,476 Speaker 2: is a trap because they will take advantage of you. 671 00:37:11,756 --> 00:37:14,796 Speaker 2: For all the bad ideas online, this one might be 672 00:37:14,836 --> 00:37:16,836 Speaker 2: close to that. There's a lot of bad ideas online, 673 00:37:16,876 --> 00:37:18,996 Speaker 2: but this is a really bad one. Men and women 674 00:37:19,036 --> 00:37:21,876 Speaker 2: can be friends just fine. It is very common for 675 00:37:21,996 --> 00:37:25,196 Speaker 2: men and women to have friendships where they don't experience 676 00:37:25,236 --> 00:37:29,596 Speaker 2: strong romantic attraction for each other, and in fact, for 677 00:37:29,716 --> 00:37:34,436 Speaker 2: both heterosexual men and women, they're ultimately more likely to 678 00:37:34,556 --> 00:37:38,716 Speaker 2: find romantic partners to the extent that their friend networks 679 00:37:39,156 --> 00:37:43,636 Speaker 2: have both men and women in them, not necessarily like 680 00:37:43,676 --> 00:37:46,476 Speaker 2: you're going to date those friends, but those friends are 681 00:37:46,516 --> 00:37:49,756 Speaker 2: going to introduce you to some other friends who then 682 00:37:50,036 --> 00:37:53,196 Speaker 2: you're likely to get in a relationship with. So doing 683 00:37:53,316 --> 00:37:55,796 Speaker 2: this whole like, no, you got to be friends with 684 00:37:55,836 --> 00:37:58,476 Speaker 2: people of the same gender and people of the other 685 00:37:58,556 --> 00:38:01,236 Speaker 2: gender are to try your pickup lines on, and that's 686 00:38:01,236 --> 00:38:05,036 Speaker 2: pretty much it. This is a disastrous approach and it's 687 00:38:05,196 --> 00:38:07,596 Speaker 2: not going to lead to success for most people. 688 00:38:07,716 --> 00:38:10,756 Speaker 1: It sounds like this new evolutionary science of relationships is 689 00:38:10,916 --> 00:38:13,636 Speaker 1: much more hopeful, but it gives us a different kind 690 00:38:13,636 --> 00:38:15,796 Speaker 1: of work than we normally think of. It's not about 691 00:38:15,836 --> 00:38:19,156 Speaker 1: the really funny quip online and scrolling through millions of photos. 692 00:38:19,516 --> 00:38:22,356 Speaker 1: It's kind of like getting back out there into the 693 00:38:22,396 --> 00:38:26,196 Speaker 1: communities and evolutionary situations that we are normally in and 694 00:38:26,596 --> 00:38:28,636 Speaker 1: just being patient. It can be hard, but it sounds 695 00:38:28,676 --> 00:38:29,396 Speaker 1: like it's effective. 696 00:38:29,556 --> 00:38:32,596 Speaker 2: I do think the patience is one of the hardest things. 697 00:38:32,676 --> 00:38:36,076 Speaker 2: And look, growing up, I was not the most patient person. 698 00:38:36,156 --> 00:38:39,356 Speaker 2: I'm probably not the most patient person now. It can 699 00:38:39,396 --> 00:38:43,916 Speaker 2: be really challenging to feel like you're just waiting around 700 00:38:43,956 --> 00:38:47,636 Speaker 2: for the right person to show up. But socializing is 701 00:38:47,996 --> 00:38:51,996 Speaker 2: very very important, spending time with friends, meeting new people, 702 00:38:52,316 --> 00:38:56,876 Speaker 2: and these things ultimately can be helpful for most people. 703 00:38:57,316 --> 00:39:00,436 Speaker 2: We just got to re establish that lost art of 704 00:39:00,636 --> 00:39:02,836 Speaker 2: hanging out and kind of seeing where the night. 705 00:39:02,716 --> 00:39:04,396 Speaker 1: Takes us and the good news is all that is 706 00:39:04,436 --> 00:39:07,276 Speaker 1: pretty happiness inducing, even if you don't get a romantic partner. 707 00:39:07,076 --> 00:39:09,396 Speaker 2: Out of it exactly. I mean, that was one of 708 00:39:09,436 --> 00:39:12,476 Speaker 2: the key insights that I had, was that like, but 709 00:39:12,556 --> 00:39:15,316 Speaker 2: wait a minute, I'm just enjoying myself hanging out with 710 00:39:15,356 --> 00:39:18,236 Speaker 2: these people I know, date that person, date that person 711 00:39:18,316 --> 00:39:20,356 Speaker 2: I don't know. Like, this is fun. I'm just going 712 00:39:20,436 --> 00:39:23,716 Speaker 2: to keep doing this. And this was at a point 713 00:39:23,756 --> 00:39:26,716 Speaker 2: in my life where I was single and I was 714 00:39:26,796 --> 00:39:30,756 Speaker 2: interested in dating people. But I stopped being so focused 715 00:39:30,796 --> 00:39:36,036 Speaker 2: on exactly where the prospects were, and things really started 716 00:39:36,076 --> 00:39:38,796 Speaker 2: to change after that point. And it's not because like, oh, 717 00:39:38,836 --> 00:39:41,756 Speaker 2: I developed these new special attributes and now I had 718 00:39:41,836 --> 00:39:46,316 Speaker 2: higher mate value. I just had this expanding social network. 719 00:39:46,796 --> 00:39:49,236 Speaker 2: And once it really starts expanding in a major way, 720 00:39:49,276 --> 00:39:52,276 Speaker 2: it's almost like it starts cascading and you're just meeting 721 00:39:52,316 --> 00:39:56,196 Speaker 2: all of these new people and new possibilities emerge. And 722 00:39:56,236 --> 00:39:58,836 Speaker 2: the apps aren't great at fostering that, but we can 723 00:39:58,876 --> 00:40:01,356 Speaker 2: still do it in the twenty first century. I'm pretty sure. 724 00:40:02,076 --> 00:40:05,476 Speaker 1: Modern dating can make attraction feel like a marketplace, like 725 00:40:05,516 --> 00:40:08,396 Speaker 1: we're all walking around with mate value numbers imprinted on 726 00:40:08,436 --> 00:40:11,836 Speaker 1: our foreheads. But Paul's work shows that compatibility is something 727 00:40:11,876 --> 00:40:14,236 Speaker 1: we can build over time. If you're interested in learning 728 00:40:14,276 --> 00:40:17,156 Speaker 1: even more accurate ideas about the evolution of love, check 729 00:40:17,156 --> 00:40:20,156 Speaker 1: out Paul's book Bonded by Evolution, The New Science of 730 00:40:20,196 --> 00:40:22,796 Speaker 1: Love and Connection, which is available now. You can also 731 00:40:22,916 --> 00:40:26,236 Speaker 1: check out Paul's podcast Love Factually, where he breaks down 732 00:40:26,236 --> 00:40:29,276 Speaker 1: the latest relationship science with reviews of some of your 733 00:40:29,276 --> 00:40:32,596 Speaker 1: favorite rom coms. If you have thoughts about today's episode 734 00:40:32,596 --> 00:40:35,076 Speaker 1: and the science of love, we'd love to hear from you. 735 00:40:35,076 --> 00:40:38,236 Speaker 1: You can email us at Happiness Lab at Pushkin dot fm, 736 00:40:38,476 --> 00:40:40,516 Speaker 1: or leave us a review to tell us what you liked. 737 00:40:40,636 --> 00:40:42,596 Speaker 1: You can also sign up to learn more about the 738 00:40:42,596 --> 00:40:46,316 Speaker 1: science of happiness and join my free newsletter on my website, 739 00:40:46,516 --> 00:40:49,596 Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Santos dot com. That's d R l A 740 00:40:49,756 --> 00:40:53,396 Speaker 1: U RI E S A N t O s dot com. 741 00:40:53,476 --> 00:40:55,716 Speaker 1: And if you've enjoyed these past few episodes on the 742 00:40:55,716 --> 00:40:58,476 Speaker 1: Science of Love, then you're in luck, because next week 743 00:40:58,516 --> 00:41:01,036 Speaker 1: we'll be revisiting some of our favorite episodes on the 744 00:41:01,076 --> 00:41:04,276 Speaker 1: Science of Love from the Happiness Lab archives, including one 745 00:41:04,276 --> 00:41:07,436 Speaker 1: of my favorite ever interviews with the OG pioneers of 746 00:41:07,516 --> 00:41:08,916 Speaker 1: modern relationship science. 747 00:41:09,636 --> 00:41:10,156 Speaker 2: You don't want to 748 00:41:10,196 --> 00:41:12,236 Speaker 1: Miss it, so be sure to come back next week 749 00:41:12,356 --> 00:41:15,156 Speaker 1: for the Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos