1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: we're back with part three of our series on Horror 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: VAKUI or Fear of the Void, which we have We've 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: been mainly focusing I think on like art and design 7 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: in the past couple of episodes, but today I wanted 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: to take a look at the history of the vacuum 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: and specifically resistance to the idea of the vacuum in 10 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: philosophy and physics. And to begin, I was reading about 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: the scientific history of vacuum physics in a book called 12 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: The Void by Frank Close from Oxford University Press in 13 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: two thousand seven. Frank Close is a professor of physics 14 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: at at Oxford I think emeritus now, But anyway, I 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: was reading about this and he included a quote from 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: the rig Veda that I thought was very interesting. This 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,639 Speaker 1: is from the creation Hymn of the rig Veda, which says, 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: in translation, there was neither non existence nor existence. Then 19 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: there was neither the realm of space nor the sky, 20 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: which is beyond what stirred where and I really like 21 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: this because it I think it encapsulates a kind of, 22 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: uh a fascinated but challenging history of attempts to conceptualize 23 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: empty space, to even imagine what empty space would mean 24 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: if it were to exist. Because I noticed kind of 25 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: a gap here. As far as I can tell, most 26 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: people all around the world today, even in various you know, 27 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: different cultures, whatever, really, as as far as I can tell, 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: don't seem to express any major problems making sense of 29 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: the idea of empty space. Obviously, there's a lot we 30 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: don't know about the nature of space. What is space, 31 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: where does it come from, what different kinds of space 32 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: could there be, and so forth. So space is still 33 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: a vessel of many mysteries. It's not like we've got 34 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: it all solved. But if you just simplify the idea 35 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 1: to the basics, I and I think most people don't 36 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: have any problem imagining the concept of an area of 37 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: three dimensional space with no particles in it. That just yeah, okay, 38 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: that that makes sense as an idea to me. But 39 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: if you read about how ancient Greek philosophers wrote about 40 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: this question, I do not get the impression that the 41 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: same was generally true for them, not only did many 42 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: of them deny the possibility of empty space existing. Sometimes 43 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: I get the feeling that they are struggling to even 44 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: imagine what the concept would mean. Do Do you know 45 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: what I'm getting out here? Rob, Yeah? Yeah, this, Um, 46 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: this is something we talked a little bit about off 47 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: my before the the episode here. Um it's it's it's 48 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: it's kind of complicated. I mean at one level, yeah, 49 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: they're They're always going to be linguistic possibilities in play. 50 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: For example, I was looking into some sources on the 51 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 1: void in Chinese philosophy and you run into, for example, 52 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: that they're separate terms for such concepts as emptiness, nothingness, 53 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: and the infinite or the absolute and and one source 54 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: here is looking at foundling law in Frontiers of Philosophy 55 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: and China from two thousand ten contends that their subtleties 56 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: involved that quote English language is unable to capture. So yeah, 57 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: we have to acknowledge linguistic possibilities. But on the other hand, 58 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: like thinking about like what is it as a modern human, 59 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: Like why do I like you have no problem imagining 60 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: a vacuum um or or even of a void, And 61 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: I think part of it maybe like just the mechanical 62 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: possibilities that we have now in the media evidence thereof. So, 63 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: for instance, when I think about a perfect vacuum, I 64 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: can I can imagine a device that mechanically makes it 65 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: so within say a closed space. I can think back 66 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: to footage of someone in a It's not a perfect vacuum, 67 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: but a place that has no air, that's sort of vacuum. 68 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: Because I guess we get into differences too. Are we 69 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: talking about a space without air um in which say 70 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: a scientist in a suit may drop a feather in 71 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: a bowling ball and do that whole experiment, or are 72 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: we talking about something that that is a true vacuum 73 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: with nothing in it at all, like a like an 74 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: absolute void um. And and there are differences there, but yeah, 75 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: as far as just like maybe it gets into the 76 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: idea of imagining a space with air in it. Like, 77 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: we we have this clear idea of what atmosphere is 78 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: and what air is, and we can also see and 79 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: behold and sort of to some degree understand the mechanics 80 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: by which that air may be removed from a space. 81 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: And therefore you could have a space where the visible 82 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: is not present and the invisible has been removed as well. Yeah, 83 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: that's a very good point. And I think for like 84 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: one major difference, maybe the UH unsettled question of like 85 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: whether the air itself has wait for much of human history, 86 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: Like if if you don't have that worked out, it 87 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: may just be harder to imagine what space devoid of 88 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: even gas particles would be. Yeah, but I want to 89 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: turn into some examples that Frank Close looks at in 90 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: this book, especially his his first chapter on sort of 91 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: the ancient history of the void in UH in physics, 92 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: to to look at how how this idea was thought 93 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: of before the modern era. So the pre Socratic Greek 94 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: philosopher Thals of Melitas, who lived from the seventh to 95 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: the sixth century b c. Writing about the idea of 96 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: emptiness or void without substance, is actually kind of tempted 97 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: to ask can there be such a thing as nothing? 98 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: If someone is able to think about it, wouldn't thinking 99 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: about it mean it was something? And again this raises 100 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: an interesting question for me. I mean, my initial reaction 101 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: is just like no, Like, you know, so imagine a 102 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: container with empty space in it. I don't think by 103 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: thinking about that we change the nature of what's in 104 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: the container. But this does kind of raise the specter 105 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: of like if there could be a vacuum for people 106 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: like Thiley's maybe this has almost more sort of totalizing 107 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:22,679 Speaker 1: cosmic implications that the ability of a vacuum to exist 108 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: says something about the universe as a whole, not just 109 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: one region of the universe, say inside of a glass 110 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: bottle or something. So that's one level in which I respond. 111 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: But then on the other hand, I can sympathize with 112 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: thoughts like this knowing some things about modern physics, because 113 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: in a very real sense, empty space is I think 114 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: you can make the argument that it is not nothing. 115 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: Empty space is something even though it is not matter. 116 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: Uh So this may come from a failure to distinguish 117 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: between space and a concept like nothingness, in which case, 118 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: like if you're imagining space is something like space has properties, 119 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: then in fact it couldn't be nothing, which is what 120 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: Thai Las was thinking about. Yeah, this perhaps distinction between 121 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: nothingness and emptiness. Um, this whole thing about thinking about 122 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: it making it maybe less nothing. Um. This reminds me 123 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: of another paper I was looking at, Being in Nothingness 124 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: in Greek and Ancient Chinese philosophy by Ji Ming shin 125 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: philosophy East and West nine. Uh. This author points out 126 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: that in both Chinese Taoism and Greek philosophy you see 127 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: this culmination of things and nothingness. Quote, nothingness is the 128 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: nature of being in itself, which is absolutely transcendent and nameless. 129 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: So if I'm interpreting this correctly to sort of dual 130 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: identity of nothingness in these two different thoughts systems, nothingness 131 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: is ultimately that which comes before substance but also comes 132 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,679 Speaker 1: before human attributed meaning. Um So yeah, like even thinking 133 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: of even giving it a name changes the nothingness of 134 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: it at least from these perspectives. Yes, though with Greek philosophy, 135 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: I know it very much depends on which philosopher you're 136 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: talking about, because a lot of these big Greek philosophers, Uh, 137 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: they were emphatic and specifically rejecting the idea that the 138 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: universe could have come from nothingness, that there could ever 139 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: have been nothingness, or that the universe would ever disappear 140 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: into nothingness like that was specifically uh, part of what 141 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: the cosmological history that the Ley's was arguing for. According 142 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: to Theiles, it would be impossible for the universe to 143 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: have come from nothingness. And it would be impossible for 144 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: it to ever become nothing. There's just sort of like 145 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: infinitely the same stuff. Without getting into the exacts of 146 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: it all though, when you hear some of these sweeping 147 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: explanations of what, say, the universe would be if it 148 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: were reduced to a singularity, you know, uh, that sort 149 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: of thing like, that's not nothing, it's something, but it's 150 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: such a strange and alien concept, so different from certainly 151 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: our perceivable reality, that it might as well be nothing. 152 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: You know. Yes, that's a good point. And of course, 153 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: again to highlight the difference between nothingness and empty space 154 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: and nothingness I think is much harder to define. I 155 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: don't know exactly what we mean when we talk about nothingness. 156 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: It's sort of a more uh slippery, mysterious concept, whereas 157 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: empty space. Again, it's not that we understand everything about it, 158 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: but it is something that has physical properties and can 159 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: be manipulated. We know some things about it, Yeah, like 160 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: even linguistically. When we talk about a vacuum, so we've 161 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: formed an artificial vacuum inside of a reinforced steel chamber, 162 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: does that steel chamber contain a vacuum and therefore the 163 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: vacuum is not nothing because it is a thing by 164 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: virtue of being different from everything surrounding it. Oh, because 165 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: it is contained. Yeah, well that raises another question of um. 166 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: When you ask whether a vacuum exists in nature, I 167 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: mean in reality, whenever we're talking about a vacuum, we're 168 00:09:54,679 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: talking about essentially low density gas. So and the question 169 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: is how low density does the gas have to get 170 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: before you are comfortable talking about a region of it 171 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: as a vacuum. So like and say that, and we 172 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: can come back to this maybe in in the next 173 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: part of the series or something. But like an interstellar voids, 174 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: there are still particles floating around out there. They're just 175 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: very far apart compared to much closer to stars or 176 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 1: in the atmosphere of a planet. But I guess the 177 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: question would be how far apart does every individual particle 178 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: of matter have to get before you say, okay, this 179 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: is really a total vacuum. Mhm. But to come back 180 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: to Thailey's for a second, Close makes an interesting argument 181 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: about Thailey's sort of having something in his cosmology similar 182 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: to uh to a kind of empty space, basically a 183 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 1: primeval material or a sort of ground state for the universe, 184 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: And Close argues that for Thailey's this ground state of 185 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: existence was water. This belief is related to the fact 186 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: that we can observe why are going through phase changes, 187 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: so we can see water as solid, ice, as liquid 188 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: as water, vapor and Close says that the LEAs assumed 189 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: that the diversity of forms went on from there, and 190 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: in fact water was the basis of every material on Earth. Rocks, plants, air, etcetera. 191 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: Are all somehow water in some some extrapolated form, and 192 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: so he writes quote, space for Thaile's is as empty 193 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: as it can be when all matter in it has 194 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: been turned into its primeval form, liquid water. Like the ocean. 195 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: Water thus contains every possible form of matter. I think 196 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: we've actually discussed this before. Yeah, in connection to his work, 197 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: like you get down to the idea of a cosmic ocean, 198 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: of a primordial ocean on which there is no land 199 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: and no being. So there are definitely similarities between imagining, 200 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: say the you know, the gods or the Creator or whatever, 201 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: hovering over a great void and hovering over a gray ocean. 202 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: That those are like similar ideas in some of these 203 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: ancient cosmologies at least, But anyway, going on from there, 204 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: in the fifth century b c. There's another pre Socratic 205 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: Greek philosopher, Empedicalles, who argued that there were actually four 206 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: fundamental forms of matter. Wasn't that everything came from water? 207 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: Like they least thought that there was in fact earth, air, fire, 208 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: and water, And empedically Is notably realized that air was 209 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: itself a substance and not merely empty space. He also 210 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: believed there was no such thing as empty space. But 211 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: of course the discovery that air is not empty space 212 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: does not mean that empty space cannot exist. But then 213 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: we we come to the atomists, who are very interesting 214 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: in their departure from these other ways of thinking. So uh. 215 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: The atomists included a number of ancient philosophers like Lucippus, Democritus, 216 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: and Epicurus, who believed, quite remarkably ahead of their time, 217 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: that all matter is actually made up of imperceptible like 218 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: tiny particles, which they called atoms from the Greek word 219 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: adam moss, which is derived from something that means like 220 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 1: cannot be cut or basically indivisible. Now, of course, today 221 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: we know that atoms are not actually indivisible. They're made 222 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: up of sub atomic particles like protons, neutrons, electrons, and 223 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: even protons and neutrons can be further subdivided. But ancient 224 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: atomists did not have the experimental apparatus needed to discover this. Instead, 225 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: they arrived at the atomic view of physics primarily by 226 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: way of thought, experiments, and everyday empirical observations, such as 227 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: the observation of things like the erosion of solid matter 228 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: in nature. So if you have a great, you know, 229 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: a grand marble staircase, and you notice that over the years, 230 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: the steps on the staircase are eroding. They're sort of 231 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: like sagging in the places where people walk on them. Well, 232 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: they're solid marble. Where are they going? How do marble 233 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: steps wear away over the ages? It must be because 234 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: each person who steps on them remove some tiny, invisibly 235 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: small amount of matter. But that invisibly small amount of matter, 236 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: those little atoms that are taken away accumulate over time 237 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 1: and the steps are worn down. But importantly for this discussion, 238 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: the atomists believed that there actually is such a thing 239 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: as empty space. In fact, it was core to their 240 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: theory that the universe was composed of atoms in motion. 241 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: Those atoms in motion needed a space through which to move. 242 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: And the atomists argued that if there were already something 243 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: in the place and atom was moving to, the atom 244 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: couldn't move there because then two atoms would be occupying 245 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: the same space at once. So there had to be 246 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: such a thing as empty space. That was the only 247 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: way that such space could come to be occupied. You know, 248 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: there has to be space for things to move into 249 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: where nothing can move. But after this we get back 250 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: to Aristotle because uh and we mentioned him at the 251 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: beginning of the first episode in this series. For better 252 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: or worse, Aristotle would pretty much have the last word 253 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: on this question for centuries to come, until experiments in 254 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: the seventeenth century would strongly challenge his decree. But Aristotle says, 255 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: there is no such thing as empty space. Uh. And 256 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: I was reading about the Aristotelian uh framework or foundation 257 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: for the science of the early modern period in the 258 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: Cambridge History of Science, volume three, edited by Lindberg at All. 259 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: This was in a chapter called Physics and Foundations by 260 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: the Princeton philosopher Daniel Garber. And uh. He makes some 261 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: interesting points, But reading this chapter, this is the way 262 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: I was thinking about it. So when we think of 263 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: physics today, we usually think of it as a science 264 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: contained within certain boundaries, like there are certain kinds of 265 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: questions that are physics questions, and there are other questions 266 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: that are not Physics. Is the study of properties of 267 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: matter and energy something like that, And that's a huge field, 268 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: so you can ask tons of stents in it, like 269 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: how are stars formed? Or what is the relationship between 270 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: particle mass and the Higgs field. But if in a 271 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: physics journal today you tried to submit a paper on 272 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: a question like what are the basic modes of existence? 273 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: And what is being? And what is the relationship of 274 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: those uh things to say, God, uh, this would probably 275 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: be rejected as outside the scope of the physical sciences, 276 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: you know, like the editors would say, you need to 277 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: submit this to a different journal. However, this attempted limitation 278 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: of scope was not always present in fields analogous to physics. 279 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: Throughout history. There are many times in history where these 280 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: things really kind of blend together, or at least, uh 281 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: philosophical foundations are thought to have relevant things to say 282 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: about physics theories. So uh, the these these philosophical foundations 283 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: might include religious world views, so you can think about 284 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: the way that um, the the scientists of the islam 285 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: world in the Middle Ages might have thought of Islam 286 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: as a theological foundation for the sciences, or the way 287 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: that Christian natural philosophers of Europe might have thought about 288 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: Christianity in the same way. But in the West there 289 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: was a major secular philosophical foundation of early science also, 290 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: and that was Aristotelianism, the philosophy of Aristotle, a fourth 291 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: century BC Greek philosopher. And I think it's fair to 292 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: say that for like hundreds of years, in the schools 293 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: and universities of of medieval through early modern Europe, the 294 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: philosophy of Aristotle was not taught in the way that 295 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: it would be taught in a college class today. Like 296 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: today you would teach it like here is an interesting 297 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: piece of intellectual history, maybe providing a certain point of 298 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: view and showing the development of how people thought about X, 299 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: Y or z. Instead, I think it was often taught 300 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: in a way that was closer to how people would 301 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: have thought about the Bible. It's like Aristotle said it. 302 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: That pretty much settles it. Yeah, So you end up 303 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: with with various discussions and arguments coming down to either 304 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: what Aristotle said or disagreements over what Aristotle did say 305 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: or meant or what he would have said or meant 306 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: about a given topic. Right so, and and to be clear, 307 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't always this way. It wasn't that everybody thought 308 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: Aristotle was literally infallible. But it seems to me like 309 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: he was often treated by the scholastics as something approaching infallibility, 310 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: like it was just ludicrous to question Aristotle, though in 311 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: some cases people did. Thankank thank so, we should discuss 312 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: what Aristotle says about the void um. Aristotle denies the 313 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: possibility of the existence of empty space, specifically in his 314 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: book Physics Book for and, as is so often true 315 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: with these ancient philosophers, he makes his case for the 316 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: non existence of a vacuum not by like doing an 317 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: experiment and describing it, but by cold, rash eosination. He 318 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: is going to reason his way out of having to 319 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: believe in empty space. Garber, in his chapter quotes a 320 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: translation of Aristotle for one of his arguments along these lines. 321 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: Aristotle says, now it space or place has three dimensions length, breadth, depth, 322 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: the dimensions by which all body is bounded. But the 323 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: place cannot be body, for if it were, there would 324 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: be two bodies in the same place. What in the 325 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: world then are we to suppose place to be and 326 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: the implied answer is nothing. Uh, So not to kind 327 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: of interesting contradiction, It seems to me at least that 328 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: we had the atomists pointing to the fact that two 329 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: objects can't be in the same place at the same 330 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: time to prove that there must be empty space, because remember, 331 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 1: moving particles have to have unoccupied space to move into. 332 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: And here Aristotle is using the same ms in a 333 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: way to say that space cannot exist independent of matter, 334 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: or else it would have to occupy the same places 335 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: matter at the same time. But coming back to close, 336 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: he summarizes Aristotle's arguments by saying, quote, so for Aristotle, 337 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: logic seem to require that empty space cannot be something 338 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: and therefore is non existent. He defined the void as 339 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: where there is no body, and since the basic elements 340 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: of things exist eternally, there can be no place that 341 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: is completely empty. Aristotle may have been getting some mileage 342 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: here out of uh confusion over the difference between empty 343 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: space as something and like nothingness as as in a 344 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: way meaning non existence. Now. Garber, in his Physics and 345 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: Foundations chapter writes that by the thirteenth century, writers in 346 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: the Scholastic tradition in Europe who believed in Aristotelian dogmas 347 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: had begun assuming the existence of a natural force known 348 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: as horror vakay, again a phrase that Aristotle himself did 349 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: not use, but which aligned with his teaching on this matter, 350 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: that nature would not permit a vacuum, and the Scholastic 351 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: writers characterized this as a force in nature which prevents 352 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: vacuum of from emerging, almost like there's sort of a 353 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: law of nature something going on that will not let 354 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: a vacuum be created, and thus forces matter to fill 355 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: in the gaps. So you can pump out that container 356 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: as much as you want, but horror vakaye will prevent 357 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: it from actually being empty inside. Uh And and another 358 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,479 Speaker 1: interesting thing I wanted to flag here is that Garber 359 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: notes a conflict between this Aristotelian dogma and some religious 360 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,479 Speaker 1: reasoning that arose in the Church in the thirteenth century 361 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: that eventually led to the famous Condemnations of twelve seventy seven, 362 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: where we've got a bishop condemning Aristotle. Uh So, to 363 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: read from Garber here, quote, one consequence was that without 364 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: space outside of the finite world, not even God would 365 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: seem to be able to move the universe if he 366 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: chose to do so. This apparent consequence of Aristotelian doctrine 367 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: was rejected in the famous condemnation of Aristotle by Etienne Tempier, 368 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: the Bishop of Paris, in twelve seventy seven uh and 369 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: then quoting in translation, here we can dimn the proposition 370 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: that God could not move the heavens with rectilinear motion, 371 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: and the reason is that a vacuum would remain. So 372 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: Garber says, this really kind of put these scholastic Aristotelians 373 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: in a bind because in some ways they they had 374 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: to defend the possibility of some kind of empty space 375 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: existing in the universe, at least potentially for theological reasons, 376 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: but they didn't want to violate the principles of Aristotle 377 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: to which they were loyal. Mhm. But anyway, going on, 378 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: Frank Close makes an interesting argument that I think I 379 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: would agree with it. We shouldn't be too hard on 380 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: the prevailing Aristotelian belief in uh in orvakay because without 381 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,479 Speaker 1: special equipment and experiments, I don't know, it really just 382 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: seems like that from everyday existence, like it seems like 383 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: reality prevents voids from forming. Examples given by the ancient 384 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: philosophers were things like, hey, you suck all the air 385 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: out of an empty wine skin, the wine skin collapses 386 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: like it shrinks in. Removing the air does not result 387 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: in a void inside the skin. It causes the walls 388 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: of the skin to shrink proportional to the amount of 389 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: air you're able to remove. You could also use this 390 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: belief in nature's hatred for the vacuum to explain the 391 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: workings of pumps and siphons. So beyond the fact that 392 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: Aristotle said it, it just kind of seemed right with 393 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: everyday experience. Yeah, I mean again, you're not walking around 394 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: your home and just suddenly walking into a vacuum, right Like, 395 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: even the empty rooms are are full, they're they're teeming 396 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: with with with matter. Uh. And these are I think 397 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: all great examples where you could you can imagine someone saying, 398 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: look proof right here, look at this wine skin. If 399 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: you can form a void in this wide skin, then 400 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: I'll believe you. Otherwise, absolutely not. So while horror Vakay 401 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: had its critics for a long time, I think it's 402 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: safe to say that it was really like the seventeenth 403 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: century where this idea was laid to rest. So coming 404 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: back to this idea of like when you suck on 405 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: a straw, what is the force that actually causes the 406 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: liquid in your drink to rise up the straw into 407 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: your mouth. You could imagine it as a vacuum created 408 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: that like sort of resists formation and thus sucks the 409 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: liquid up. The same question was actually raised around the 410 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: year sixteen hundred UH and brought to the attention of Galileo. 411 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: There are some examples I've read about this. One is 412 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: an example of UH. I think a scientist sort of 413 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: at the time a natural philosopher who had been trying 414 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: to construct a big siphon and encountered problems at at 415 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: a certain height of the siphon. But then I've also 416 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: read about an influence here being people digging wells and 417 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 1: mine shafts who would try to remove water from these 418 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: pits using like plunger based pumps to lift the water 419 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,479 Speaker 1: out through a pipe. There was a problem in all 420 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: these cases with the siphons and the pumps. Basically, the 421 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: pumps stopped working after a certain height, after the water 422 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: was raised roughly ten point three meters or so, when 423 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: you had ten point three ms worth of a column 424 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: in the pipe, it would stop going higher, wouldn't climb 425 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: the pipe anymore, and instead a gap would appear between 426 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: the water column and the plunger or the piston or 427 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: whatever you're using to pump it out. So what's going 428 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: on here? What was the what was actually limiting the 429 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: height of the water pump system. Well, Galileo investigated this question, 430 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: and he suspected that the force that drew water up 431 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: through a pump or a siphon may in fact be 432 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: the force of horror Vakawi. So the vacuum is resisting 433 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: formation and thus holding water up after itself. So when 434 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: you try to run the pump, the fact that the 435 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: universe is resisting creating a vacuum in that space in 436 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: between is forcing water up. I love how this Uh 437 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: this this also kind of implies that Galileo was maybe 438 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: not solving a physics problem, but responding to a pump problem. 439 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: Get Galileo on the horn. We got a problem with 440 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: this pump here se if he see it has time 441 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: this afternoon to look at it. Well, I mean that's 442 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: the wonderful thing about Galileo. I mean, he he was 443 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: at all ends of the spectrum here right working on 444 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: theoretical problems and astronomy and every day you know, mechanical 445 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: physics problems. But all, yeah, it is hilarious. Imagine. I 446 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: don't know exactly when this was first raised to him, 447 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 1: but it's it's fun to imagine somebody was like trying 448 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 1: to get water out of their basement or their mind shaft, 449 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: and that they were just able to call up Galileo, 450 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: or maybe he arrives at his end. He's like a superhero. Yeah. Anyway, Yeah, 451 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: so he imagines that that maybe it is the force 452 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: of natures existing the formation of a vacuum that pulls 453 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: the water up the pipe. But then at a certain point, 454 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: the weight of the water in the pipe is too much. 455 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: There's too much water, and it's the vacuum resistance can't 456 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: carry it any higher. It has reached the limit of 457 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 1: the strength of nature's resistance to a vacuum. So fascinating question, 458 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: but Galileo never solved it in his lifetime. Thank you, 459 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. Into a couple of other figures, 460 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: we got a guy named Gasparo Bertie who lived sixteen 461 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: hundred sixteen forty three, and Evangelista Toricelli sixteen o eight 462 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: to sixty seven and Robbi I got a picture of 463 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: tor Chelli for you to look at here. I think 464 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: he is incredibly notable for having a Batman symbol as 465 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: a mustache. Yeah, certain portraits of this guy, um have 466 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: it worse than others, but yes, it has this. I 467 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: guess it's sort of a Vandi though in other portraits 468 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: it really feels uh cruciform. It feels like it looks 469 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it looks like he took a crucifix with 470 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: flared arms and was perhaps kissing it so much that 471 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: the barber had to uh shave him around that crucifix, 472 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: resulting in this hairstyle. Um, it's um, it's a lot. 473 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: I want my muzzle to make you think of the passion. 474 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: It seems if it is a bold look. So these 475 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: two Italian scientists, a Bertie and Torcelli performed similar experiments 476 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: in the early sixteen forties that would clarify what was 477 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: going on here. Bertie did an experiment with water, and 478 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: then several years later Torcelli did a more definitive and 479 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: more famous experiment with quicksilver, which we know today as 480 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: elemental liquid mercury. So Torchelli's experiment went like this. You 481 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: would get a glass tube about one meter long and 482 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: fill it completely with liquid mercury. So this tube would 483 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: be closed completely at one end and open at the other. 484 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: So you fill it with liquid mercury, and you temporarily 485 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: plug up the open end so one end is permanently 486 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: closed one end, you know, put a finger over it 487 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: to close it, and then you flip the tube upright 488 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: vertical and sit the open end down in a big 489 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: basin of more liquid mercury. So you've got like a 490 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: tub of liquid mercury. So you flip it up. You 491 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: have the the plugged open end facing down into the 492 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: lake of mercury, and then you unplug it. You remove 493 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: the finger or the plug. Now remember the tube started 494 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: totally full of mercury, but now that it's unplugged, the 495 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: mercury can flow down into the basin with the rest 496 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: of the mercury. And when he tried this, the mercury 497 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: and the tube did fall, but not all the way. 498 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: It fell to leave a column of mercury about seventy 499 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: six cimeters in height, and then a gap for the 500 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: rest of the tube length up at the closed top. 501 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: So what was the gap, Well, Torcelli reasoned that it 502 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: was actually a vacuum. There was effectively nothing inside the 503 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: tube for those empty centimeters above the column of mercury. 504 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: The other guy, Gasparo Gasparo Bertie, had performed a similar 505 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: experiment with water several years before, and they both Both 506 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: of these experiments seemed to provide evidence that it was 507 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: indeed possible for empty space to exist. But the question remained, 508 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: what was holding up the water in the tube and 509 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: why would the water only rise up the tube to 510 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: a certain height, or, to put it in another way, 511 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: why would the liquid only fall down to a certain 512 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: consistent height uh in the tube. The answer was also 513 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: illuminated by Torchli's experiment, for one thing, by comparing the 514 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: difference between the height of a water column a tube 515 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 1: and the height of a mercury column in a tube. 516 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: They were different because water and mercury have different densities. 517 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: And so what Torcelli proposed, and what in fact was correct, 518 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: is that the force that kept the water or the 519 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: mercury column raised in the tube was actually the force 520 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: of atmospheric pressure, the pressure of the air pushing down 521 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: on the water or the mercury in the basin. Below, 522 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: and these tube systems assembled by Birdie and Torcelli were 523 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: actually systems for establishing an equal librium between the weight 524 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: of the liquid in this column in the tube and 525 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: the weight the atmosphere exerts on the liquid in the 526 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: basin below. The liquid and the sealed tube would fall 527 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: until the weight of the column was equal to the 528 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: atmospheric pressure, and then it would float and fall no more, 529 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: leaving mostly a vacuum in the space above. However, there 530 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: was another question. There was the question of what is 531 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: causing this. It was important to demonstrate that the vacuum 532 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: hume was not the thing exerting the force. Tori Shelley 533 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: did this with another experiment involving two mercury tubes, one 534 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: with a sort of bull on the sealed top end, 535 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: and the bulb would mean that a greater volume of 536 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: empty space was left at the top when the liquid 537 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: fell after the bottom was unplugged. So would that make 538 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: the mercury fall to a different level, And it turns 539 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: out the extra empty space did not matter at all. 540 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: The liquid fell to the same height regardless, So the 541 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: force exerted on the column of water in the pipe 542 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: or the tube was not a pull from the vacuum. 543 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: It was not a pull proportional to the amount of 544 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: vacuum created. It was a push proportional to the relationship 545 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: between the atmospheric pressure and the density of the liquid. 546 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 1: And this was further demonstrated in experiments performed by Blaze, 547 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: Pascal and uh and I think with some input from Descartes, 548 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: but Blaze, Pascal and collaborators testing a sim millarier experiment 549 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: at different altitude, so you might you test it at 550 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: the foot of a mountain and then go up to 551 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: the top of a mountain and test again and see 552 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: if there are differences. And indeed they found that higher 553 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: up on a mountain, the column of mercury would be 554 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: lower because the atmospheric pressure was lower. And in fact, 555 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: these experiments in the apparatus used the apparatus what's the 556 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: plural of that apparati or apparatus is anyway, they this 557 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: stuff went on to become the basis of the invention 558 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: known as the barometer, which is used to detect atmospheric pressure, 559 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: and for much of history, one of the most common 560 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: liquids used in it has been quicksilver or mercury. So 561 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: people here in the seventeenth century had learned a number 562 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: of things. Air has weight, the atmosphere does have weight, 563 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: and it presses down and this affects all different kinds 564 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: of fluid dynamics, enclosed containers, and at least in an 565 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: approximate sense, vacuums can be created. But the scientific story 566 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: does not stop there, and maybe in the next episode 567 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: we can get into a little more detail on that history, 568 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: because there's plenty more. But also we've got to talk 569 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: about psychology and horror. Vakawy because I don't know about you, 570 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: but you ever have that creepy feeling when you're reminded 571 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: of like walking around at school when there was nobody there, 572 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: or any other place when you were a kid that 573 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: normally had people in it, but then there were no 574 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: people in it and you were there and it just 575 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,919 Speaker 1: didn't feel right. I think about that all the time. Yeah, 576 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: And of course this this plays into a lot of 577 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: our our horror movies as well, and a lot of 578 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: our fantastic horror scenarios. So we'll discuss some of those. 579 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: But but you know this, coming back to this, this 580 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: realization that the air has weight, that atmospheric pressure is 581 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,919 Speaker 1: involved in these observations. Um, it's it's something that I feel. 582 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: Even as modern humans. We have to remind ourselves with 583 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: this time and time again, because we can also fall 584 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: into that line of thinking where we think of an 585 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: empty room is empty. We think of a clear sky 586 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 1: as being empty. Uh. But of course none of those 587 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: things are empty. All of those things are completely filled 588 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: up with air exerting a pressure on us, but a 589 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: pressure that is so ambient that we do not register 590 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: it as being pressure. Absolutely, And the way that this 591 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: pressure affects other things, say like chemical properties. I think 592 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: about the boiling point of water and how that's affected 593 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: by atmospheric pressure at different altitudes, and how that affects 594 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: something is mundane as cooking, How like cooking has to 595 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 1: be different at different altitudes. Yeah. Ultimately we have to 596 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: realize that we are creatures that evolved to reside within 597 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: an atmospheric body. And uh, and and even then only 598 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: certain parts of that atmospheric body. And then if we 599 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: want to bring fire with us and use it to 600 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: boil matter to eat, we have to take into account 601 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,879 Speaker 1: that it's going to boil differently depending on how far 602 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: up into that massive body of air we travel. We 603 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: discussed this in a couple of episodes a long time ago. 604 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: I think maybe they were the ones about sacred experiences 605 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: on mountaintops people have had. But the fact about how 606 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 1: basically like you can't boil potatoes on top of Mount Everest. 607 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: People have tried. You try to boil food to cook it. 608 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: The problem is the boiling point of water after a 609 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: certain altitude gets too low, and so your water is 610 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: boiling in the pot, but it's not hot enough to 611 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 1: cook your food, Like boiling water is no longer sufficiently hot. Wow, 612 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: And of course it's boiling. Can't get any hotter than boiling, 613 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 1: so you're just stuck like it won't cook. It's hard 614 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: to come up with a response to that. I've forgotten 615 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: about that tidbit regarding cooking potatoes on Mount Everest for 616 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: some reason. That's that's um, that's that's That's almost more 617 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: mind blowing than anything we've we've discussed in this episode, 618 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 1: I guess, because it comes down to what we were 619 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: talking about earlier, like the perceived world, the world we 620 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: can relate to, versus the the world that seems to 621 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: exist only within the the lofty conversations of philosophers and 622 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: scientists like the experience of boiling potatoes but not being 623 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: able to cook them through that boiling like that feels 624 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: like the Twilight Zone. That feels like something that shouldn't be. 625 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: Rod Serling is kind of a talking to you about this. Yeah, alright, Well, 626 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna go and close this episode out, but we'll 627 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: be back with more discussions of the vacuum, the void, 628 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 1: and so forth in the meantime. Right into us. We'd 629 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone out there. Uh, what are 630 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: your thoughts about some of the ideas we presented in 631 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: this episode, and hey, we would we would love to 632 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: hear your cooking anecdotes from from different altitudes if you 633 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,800 Speaker 1: have some of those right in. Uh, we'd love to 634 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 1: hear about your your mishaps with boiling potatoes and mountaintops. 635 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: I know we have some mountaineers out there, Yes we do. Yeah. 636 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: Reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a 637 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: science podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On 638 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: Monday's we do a listener mail episode, on Wednesday's we 639 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 1: do a short form artifact or monster fact episode, and 640 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: on Friday's we do Weird How Cinema. That's our time 641 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,439 Speaker 1: to set aside most serious concerns and just talk about 642 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: a strange film. Huge thanks to our audio producer J J. Pauseway. 643 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 644 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 645 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 646 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 647 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 648 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 649 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 650 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: wherever you listening to your favorite shows.