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Speaker 4: Welcome to she Pivots. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman.

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Speaker 4: One of my goals in starting this podcast is to

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Speaker 4: highlight voices and stories of women who went through something

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Speaker 4: deeply personal, only to come out of it on the

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Speaker 4: other side better than they could have imagined after launching

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Speaker 4: Sheep Pivots last year. It's clear it's not a small group.

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Speaker 4: This applies to most women, whether it's a big pivot

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Speaker 4: or even just a tiny pivot. What's clear is there's

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Speaker 4: still a lot of unpacking to do around pivoting. So

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Speaker 4: as we're continuing to build this platform and community through

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Speaker 4: new episodes, I wanted to also bring you more stories,

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Speaker 4: unfiltered and honest. So I'll be sitting down with more women,

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Speaker 4: maybe the occasional man, some of whom have mastered their

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Speaker 4: own pivot, some are just starting the pivoting journey. Are

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Speaker 4: some just have something to teach us about the deeply

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Speaker 4: personal moments of life. So stay tuned for more of

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Speaker 4: these candid conversations this season. Let's jump right in. So

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Speaker 4: welcome Carried Twig Entertainment groundbreaker, extraordinary, a fellow political pivoter.

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Speaker 4: Welcome Carrie too, she pivots, She's pivoting.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Thank you, Emiliam, so happy to

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Speaker 5: be here.

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Speaker 4: So you are a also fellow political pivoter and we

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Speaker 4: know each other from politics.

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Speaker 5: M hmm.

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Speaker 4: But you were like way more you were like of

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Speaker 4: a way higher ranking than I ever was you were

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Speaker 4: like the girl like you are the political girl.

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Speaker 5: It was weird. Yeah, it feels like a whole different life.

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Speaker 4: Because it literally was a whole different life. So how

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Speaker 4: did you get into politics?

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Speaker 1: So?

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Speaker 5: I got into politics because my mom, who's a social worker,

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Speaker 5: I asked her when I was twelve or thirteen what

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Speaker 5: government is, and she told me it's old white men

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Speaker 5: sitting in a room deciding how free you are, which

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Speaker 5: is still the most sustainct and accurate definition I'd ever heard, Right,

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Speaker 5: but it ran so contrary to everything I'd been taught

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Speaker 5: in school up to that point. Right, that this is

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Speaker 5: America's country in the world, everyone's equal, blah blah blah,

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Speaker 5: blah blah, all those things that you still can sort

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Speaker 5: of believe are true when you're seven and eight years old,

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Speaker 5: and then you sort of start to enter the world

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Speaker 5: with a different level of consciousness and you're like, but

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Speaker 5: wait a second, this doesn't make sense, and that doesn't

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Speaker 5: make sense.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, do you think your mom had something specific in mind?

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Speaker 5: But she said that, like I'm the third right, I

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Speaker 5: am the third child. My brother was lighting something on fire,

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Speaker 5: my sister was crying, like if Carrie was in bed,

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Speaker 5: and fed at the end of the night. It was

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Speaker 5: a win. So like it was such a throw off,

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Speaker 5: Like she remembers saying it to me, because that's what

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Speaker 5: her thing. But it wasn't like we were in the car,

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Speaker 5: you know, she was just driving me god knows where

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Speaker 5: and probably had nine thousand other things on her mind.

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Speaker 5: And so in no way, in that classic fashion that

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Speaker 5: parents often do, they have no idea they're changing the

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Speaker 5: trajectory of your life or setting the trajectory of your life.

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Speaker 5: They're just trying to make it through the day.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, that makes me feel so much pressure

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Speaker 4: on all the things that I half pay attention to answer, Right,

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Speaker 4: So I.

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Speaker 5: Just became obsessed with this idea and like, and you know,

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Speaker 5: I'm also biracial. My mom's white, my dad's black, and

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Speaker 5: so I'd started to really key into the fact that

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Speaker 5: the world was a radically different experience depending on whether

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Speaker 5: or not I was with my mother or I was

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Speaker 5: with my father. So the exact same grocery store in

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Speaker 5: the small town that I grew up in, it's a

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Speaker 5: different experience. I'm there with my dad, even though we've

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Speaker 5: been going to that grocery store for every day for

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Speaker 5: fifteen years, right. So it was just I was starting

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Speaker 5: to see these really intense contradictions around me at all

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Speaker 5: times and sort of got very swept up in this

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Speaker 5: idea that the place that you actually make and force

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Speaker 5: America to live up to its promises and its ideals

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Speaker 5: is places like the White House, places like Capitol Hill,

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Speaker 5: place like state houses. And so I just became obsessed

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Speaker 5: with politics and government.

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Speaker 4: What was the first thing you did to get it?

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Speaker 4: But by the time I met you, you were already

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Speaker 4: I think Joe Biden's political director.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I was. I was his version of Valerie Jarrett's.

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Speaker 5: So I was his director of public engagement. I had

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Speaker 5: two different portfolios in the White House. I was on

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Speaker 5: the President's side for many years and did all of

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Speaker 5: his labor kind of minimum wage, paid sick days, maternity,

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Speaker 5: paternity leave, some work with the philanthropic community. So did

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Speaker 5: a bunch of that stuff for the president. Obviously worked

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Speaker 5: on both of the campaigns, and then my last year

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Speaker 5: or so in the White House, I worked for Joe Biden.

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Speaker 4: Okay, But I also feel like you're I feel like

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Speaker 4: you must be skipping some steps here.

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Speaker 3: I am.

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Speaker 4: I am like, Okay, I started in the White House.

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Speaker 5: No no, no, no, no no. I definitely skipped some steps.

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Speaker 5: So I went to Ohio State and I made a

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Speaker 5: deal with my parents. Ohio State has a phenomenal political

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Speaker 5: science program, and I made a deal with my parents

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Speaker 5: that I wouldn't get a part time job, but I

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Speaker 5: would volunteer on political campaigns and they would pay my

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Speaker 5: rent over the summer. And because I've never liked, like,

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Speaker 5: never been a waitress, I've never wanted to do that,

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Speaker 5: I always knew what I wanted to do. By the

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Speaker 5: time I was thirteen, I knew I wanted to work

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Speaker 5: at the White House, and I thought it would be

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Speaker 5: my life's work. And so I started figuring out how

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Speaker 5: all of the world, how it all got pieced together.

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Speaker 5: I took a campaign politics class which was led by

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Speaker 5: Professor Asher Herb Asher at Ohio State, and volunteered on

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Speaker 5: my first political campaign, which was a county clerks race,

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Speaker 5: and interestingly was the intern for someone who I would

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Speaker 5: later have conjoining offices of the White House with. He

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Speaker 5: was later my next door neighbor at the White House.

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Speaker 5: Was wild oh love that I know, but sort of

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Speaker 5: volunteering on campaigns and like literally just struck a deal

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Speaker 5: with my parents so they would pay my like five

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Speaker 5: hundred dollars rent, which was astronomical to me at some point,

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Speaker 5: instead of having to be a waitress or whatever. And

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Speaker 5: so I became obsessed with it. Worked on the Carry

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Speaker 5: campaign in two thousand and four. I used to wear

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Speaker 5: a T shirt that's a cary for Carrie.

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Speaker 4: Oh that's good.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, right. And then in two thousand and six there

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Speaker 5: was a big gubernatorial race, and you know, it was

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Speaker 5: a really good year for Democrats. Democrats kind of swept

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Speaker 5: in and took a lot of offices, we took over

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Speaker 5: had It was a great year around the country, but

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Speaker 5: particularly in Ohio. And I started working the Governor's office

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Speaker 5: of Ohio, and I'd sort of again as a political animal.

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Speaker 5: I wanted to be out for the two thousand. I

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Speaker 5: want to be out of college so I could have

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Speaker 5: a real job in politics by two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 5: And so I graduated college in two years so that

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Speaker 5: I could do that. And so I was nineteen twenty

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Speaker 5: working for the governor of Ohio. Like had no idea

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Speaker 5: what was going on, but it was this epic time

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Speaker 5: that a Democrat hadn't been in power in twenty years

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Speaker 5: on the state level or sixteen years on the state level,

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Speaker 5: and so so many people were new. And so the

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Speaker 5: fact that I was a twenty year old who sort

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Speaker 5: of had no idea what was going on, sneaking.

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Speaker 4: Beers at like staff happy hours, Right, it wouldn't occur

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Speaker 4: to anyone that there was someone underage the like, right,

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Speaker 4: And it also didn't occur that like they didn't know

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Speaker 4: what they were doing.

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Speaker 5: So their sense of imposter syndrome just allowed me to

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Speaker 5: like run around doing all these jobs that I had

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Speaker 5: no business doing because they didn't know any better to

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Speaker 5: tell me. I couldn't totally.

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Speaker 4: I actually feel like that's something that people don't realize.

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Speaker 4: I did not realize that if the party has not

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Speaker 4: been in power or Democrat Republican for a while, that

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Speaker 4: means that you don't know anybody who's done that job

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Speaker 4: in a really long time. Yeah. So, like by the

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Speaker 4: time we worked on the Obama campaign and got to Washington,

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Speaker 4: Republicans had been in power and Washington for had been

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Speaker 4: in the presidency for eight years, so like nobody around

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Speaker 4: us knew what they were doing, right, Like it started

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Speaker 4: for you in the state in the governor's office but

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Speaker 4: by the way, I worked for him after he was

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Speaker 4: in the governor's office. Great guy, love that guy. I

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Speaker 4: love Ted Strecklan love that.

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Speaker 5: Guy's a couple of months ago he's, Oh, I'm so jealous.

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Speaker 4: I love that guy. But yeah, like, if your party's

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Speaker 4: been out of power, nobody knows what they're doing. Everyonebody, Like,

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Speaker 4: I feel like people don't appreciate At the beginning of

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Speaker 4: the Obama administration all this, every staffer kept referencing scenes

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Speaker 4: from West Wing because that was the only context they

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Speaker 4: had for how the government worked.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, totally and so and you think about it

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Speaker 5: even if you bring in in which case in the

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Speaker 5: beginning of you Obama administration, like we did bring in

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Speaker 5: some people from the Clinton era, right, And but you

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Speaker 5: think about what, like there wasn't they weren't really on email,

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Speaker 5: there wasn't Twitter, there wasn't social media, Like it was

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Speaker 5: still a radically different time as well.

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Speaker 4: I mean, do you remember, like the big debate at

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Speaker 4: the beginning of the Obama administration was whether he would

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Speaker 4: keep a BlackBerry or not, because they didn't know what

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Speaker 4: to do about his presidential records on a BlackBerry. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 4: that was like controversial.

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Speaker 5: Right, we sat like one tweet. I think in the

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Speaker 5: entirety of the first term.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you remember the Secretary of Defense didn't use

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Speaker 4: email then or have a cell phone. No, I mean

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Speaker 4: why would you, quite frankly, I mean if you have

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Speaker 4: that many people surrounded you, like they can study.

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Speaker 5: Out someone's going to be, they know where you are,

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Speaker 5: you know, and like, did you ever work at Department

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Speaker 5: of Defense?

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Speaker 4: I feel like you were, Oh no, okay, I.

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Speaker 5: Felt like you didn't like someone has any business leaving

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Speaker 5: me around anything. I don't have enough of an ethics,

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Speaker 5: moral compass, that kind of thing. Yeah. So then I,

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Speaker 5: uh so I was working for Ted and then I

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Speaker 5: did the Owait campaign in Ohio and sort of went

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Speaker 5: back to TED for a year, and then went to

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Speaker 5: DC and that was when I joined the Bomberman for

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Speaker 5: the first time. Came back out, did Chicago for the

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Speaker 5: reelect in twenty twelve, and then went tried to get out,

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Speaker 5: actually tried to pivot then to bring us back to

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Speaker 5: the theme. I was so tired and was kind of

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Speaker 5: over it. And so I had moved to New York

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Speaker 5: and was working at the Ford Foundation for Maya Harris,

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Speaker 5: who was an absolute legend and I was offered this

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Speaker 5: portfolio in the White House to kind of take on

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Speaker 5: a guy who had been doing the labor unions for

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Speaker 5: the president, who was a special Assistant to the President

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Speaker 5: for like labor relations or whatever the title was. He

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Speaker 5: was leaving the White House and he's like, carry, you

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Speaker 5: gotta come do it. It's like, I don't think so,

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Speaker 5: Like I'm having a really great life. And I met

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Speaker 5: with Johannes and Paulette and and you know, they're like,

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Speaker 5: just take the meeting. Take to me. I've known Yahannas

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Speaker 5: for years, right, And so I'm talking to paul Atte

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Speaker 5: and she's like, we have some other candidates that we're

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Speaker 5: looking at. And I was like, oh, fantastic, okay, because

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Speaker 5: Nate and Yo made me think that I was the

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Speaker 5: only person and like, I don't I don't really want

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Speaker 5: to do this. So if you want any other candidate,

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Speaker 5: like if you want me to vet anybody, like if

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Speaker 5: you want me to give a recommendation, I'm so happy

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Speaker 5: to do that. I just you know, I have a

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Speaker 5: great life for New York. I'm trying to say.

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Speaker 4: There.

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Speaker 5: She was like, oh interesting, Like also, just the hubris

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Speaker 5: of me to be turning this job down. I don't

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Speaker 5: know what I was thinking, but I so. Then I

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Speaker 5: go back to New York, Nate leaves, he has a

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Speaker 5: goodbye party. I come down to DC for his goodbye party.

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Speaker 5: Literally at the end, the Vice President makes his like goodbye,

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Speaker 5: thanks Nate for his work. They worked really closely together,

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Speaker 5: and Nate is just like saying his goodbyes to people.

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Speaker 5: And he said, Carrie, will you go wait for me

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Speaker 5: in that room? And it's like, yeah, sure, And so

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Speaker 5: I go and I wait for him. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 5: he's gonna try and ask me again. This man walks

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Speaker 5: in with Vice President Biden, and I have always loved

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Speaker 5: the VP, like he's now president, Like but that dude

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Speaker 5: that I love that guy. And so he literally walks

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Speaker 5: in and Joe Biden gives me the full Joe Biden

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Speaker 5: and it's like, Carrie, here, you're going to come help

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Speaker 5: us out, like a scene out of West Wing. I

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Speaker 5: was like, what is happening right now? Wow, I'm getting

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Speaker 5: cornered and bullied into taking this job by the like

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Speaker 5: by Vice President Biden, who I adore.

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Speaker 4: Are you like coming up with your excuses in your

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Speaker 4: head of how you're gonna get out and just like

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Speaker 4: I know I'm in and I'm just.

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Speaker 5: Like, fine, all right, I'll be here.

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Speaker 4: It was to save one day morning.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's terrible. And so then I came and was

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Speaker 5: there for the majority of the second term and ended up,

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Speaker 5: you know, as a labor person, you end up working

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Speaker 5: really closely with Joe Biden because his relationships there are

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Speaker 5: so deep. And so then when I tried to leave

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Speaker 5: the White House again after two years, he was still

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Speaker 5: just before bo had died and he was thinking about

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Speaker 5: running for president, and he asked me to come and

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Speaker 5: join his staff, and so I did that for a year,

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Speaker 5: and then sort of once he decided that he for

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Speaker 5: sure wasn't going to run, I was like, it's time

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Speaker 5: for me to go find some greative pastors. Hillary Clinton's

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Speaker 5: going to be president. I can move. My sister had

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Speaker 5: just had her first baby. I can go back to

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Speaker 5: Brooklyn and get my life back on track and sort

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Speaker 5: of get out of this mix.

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Speaker 4: Right, It's all going to be easy going from.

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Speaker 5: Here, exactly. It was just going to be breezy, good times.

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Speaker 4: And so were you trying to get into media? Was

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Speaker 4: that the vision like what was the vision when you

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Speaker 4: were leaving or you were just leaving politics, like you

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Speaker 4: weren't going towards anything.

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Speaker 5: It's really tough, right because now I can tell a

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Speaker 5: very elegant story about what I was doing in those

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Speaker 5: after years, But the reality is that I had turned

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Speaker 5: thirty when I left the White House, and I was

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Speaker 5: on the other side of my childhood dream and had

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Speaker 5: literally not contemplated what I would do after. I thought

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Speaker 5: I would be fifty before I worked at the White House,

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Speaker 5: and when you're thirteen, fifty seems ancient, and now, right,

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Speaker 5: I'm just like, oh, fifty, you're young.

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Speaker 4: You got a whole life.

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Speaker 5: I really, I had no other hobbies or interests, Like,

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Speaker 5: I just didn't know what else to do with myself.

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Speaker 5: And so, you know, you know how it is. You work,

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Speaker 5: I mean day, Yeah, you work fourteen hours a day

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Speaker 5: for a decade, and you just there's no room or

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Speaker 5: space for anything else. And so I sort of had

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Speaker 5: this operative thesis that I wanted to get into I

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Speaker 5: wanted to do something fun, I wanted to do something creative.

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Speaker 5: I recognized it. I was deeply burnt out, not because

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Speaker 5: I was tired, not because of the long hours, but

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Speaker 5: because I hadn't really been thinking through my brain for

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Speaker 5: the majority of my adulthood. Right, I'd worked for left

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Speaker 5: of officials my whole twenty the entirety of my twenties,

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Speaker 5: and so when you work for them, you're like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: we could do this. Ted wouldn't like that, Like, mmm,

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Speaker 5: I don't think I could get that through council or

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Speaker 5: pfliiccked with this, right, And so you start saying no

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Speaker 5: to yourself, you become your first no to any number

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Speaker 5: of ideas. And that really took a kind of creative

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Speaker 5: and spiritual toll on me, and so I wanted to

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Speaker 5: do something that would allow me to exercise that more.

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Speaker 5: Then concurrently, I also was sort of like reflecting on

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Speaker 5: the experience we had at the White House, and it

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Speaker 5: was so clear that we were in a different We

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Speaker 5: wanted to go somewhere from a policy and legislative perspective

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Speaker 5: that the culture wouldn't quite allow. Yes, I feel that

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Speaker 5: so much, And so to me, it's not a coincidence

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Speaker 5: that so many people left the Obama era and have

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Speaker 5: gone into storytelling. You me, Bret Jenkins, the crooked media guys,

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Speaker 5: the Obamas right with higher grounds, And I think so

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Speaker 5: much of that is because we really felt those cultural

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Speaker 5: constraints and are recognized that ideas for the world we

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Speaker 5: want to live and have to exist in the citizen's

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Speaker 5: imagination first before you can policy make, before you can

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Speaker 5: let around them. And so we're all sort of doing

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Speaker 5: that cultural scaffolding work now.

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Speaker 4: It is so funny. I mean, you know, I the

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Speaker 4: first issue that I worked on in Washington was on

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Speaker 4: the appeal of don't as, don't Tell. So we were

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Speaker 4: organizing straight members of the military to advocate for appeal,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of what we were doing was going

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Speaker 4: around there was this myth that if service members were

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Speaker 4: open in their units and their unit would reject them,

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Speaker 4: it would be a harm to their safety, to the

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Speaker 4: right to their unity, and then to their safety. And

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Speaker 4: what we actually found is that a lot of the

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Speaker 4: officers who were in like decision making, who had already

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Speaker 4: done tours in Iraq, we're like, oh, well, the only video,

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Speaker 4: the only shows that we could get over there were

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Speaker 4: videotapes of Will and Grace And it was actually really

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Speaker 4: really common in Iraq.

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Speaker 5: For them to be watching like DVDs or videotapes of

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Speaker 5: Will and Grace.

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Speaker 4: And although I don't think anybody at this point in

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Speaker 4: time would be like that caricature feels like the greatest

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Speaker 4: way to be changing culture. Nevertheless, I gotta tell you

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Speaker 4: it worked. They weren't absolutely, they weren't afraid of the

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Speaker 4: idea of a gay person because they felt like they

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Speaker 4: like they thought they knew one and they thought they

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Speaker 4: liked one.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, And you can trast that with something like

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Speaker 5: the ACA, right, And although organizing that required, and how

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Speaker 5: easily that slipped into death panels, how easily that swept

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Speaker 5: into like communism and socialism and blah blah blahlah.

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Speaker 4: Like that's the affordable character for everon who didn't live

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Speaker 4: it for ten years like you and idea.

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Speaker 5: Yes, done everything I can to purge acronyms from my vernacular,

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Speaker 5: but they still pop in. But because there wasn't something

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Speaker 5: that existed in the social fabric for folks to look

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Speaker 5: at and kind of contrast and sort of recognize. Human

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Speaker 5: beings are patterned monsters. We want familiar things, all of us,

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Speaker 5: every single one of us. None of us do change well.

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Speaker 5: I don't care what anyone says. No one does it

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Speaker 5: well because you're not built to We're not designed too right.

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Speaker 5: And so if you don't have something to recognize. It's

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Speaker 5: really tough to get yourself to a different ideological place.

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Speaker 5: And so, like everything you're saying, those guys recognized they

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Speaker 5: had a cultural framework to understand what the change you

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Speaker 5: were asking them to make was and why and for who.

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Speaker 5: That's a totally different way to metabolize change than if

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Speaker 5: you're just sort of like, here's something brand new that

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Speaker 5: you know nothing about. You don't know what's on the

403
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Speaker 5: other side of go with enthusiasm. Like it just doesn't

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Speaker 5: work that way totally.

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Speaker 4: And the stereotype at that point was that the service

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Speaker 4: members who would be in their units would be predatory.

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Speaker 4: So the fact that they could see something they now

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Speaker 4: had a framework that was like, oh, maybe a little

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Speaker 4: different than what I have right now, but like isn't predatory,

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Speaker 4: Like Okay, now I can visualize something different and now

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Speaker 4: I can understand it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So what was the first cultural framework that you were

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Speaker 4: trying to create as you started to go into media

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Speaker 4: and what was the first medium?

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Speaker 5: It was always TV. I was very very focused on

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Speaker 5: TV at first. It was sort of news. I have

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Speaker 5: a real bone to pick with art with political news.

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Speaker 5: It remains an enduring frustration that someone hasn't thought up

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Speaker 5: or green lit. I shouldn't say that. I'm sure someone

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Speaker 5: thought up some brilliant formats, but hasn't green lit a

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Speaker 5: like the next generation of Meet the Press or shows

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Speaker 5: like that. So initially I was thinking about new shows

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Speaker 5: and was doing a project with MTV and a bunch

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Speaker 5: of the Viacom properties actually to bring back MTV News

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Speaker 5: and what that looks like. It sort of abandoned their

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Speaker 5: place at They sort of abandoned their place at the

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Speaker 5: cultural vanguard as it relates to news and politics, and

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Speaker 5: wanted it back. So I started working and consulting with

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Speaker 5: them about what that could look like. And that's when

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Speaker 5: I really learned how shows get made. I had this

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Speaker 5: brief detour where I thought I was going to be

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Speaker 5: on television and then realized I absolutely loath being on camera,

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Speaker 5: which was hilarious.

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Speaker 4: Well thank you for being on a podcast, and I.

436
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Speaker 5: Was like, this is dumb. It's like, I don't mind.

437
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 5: I don't mind a little peacocking every now and again.

438
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 5: It's fun to go on TV and look smart, but

439
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 5: to like have a show, how people do that, it's

440
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 5: such hard work. It's just such a nightmare for me.

441
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 5: For me so so I was just sort of kicking,

442
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,919
Speaker 5: bopping around, you know, sleeping a lot. I was in

443
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 5: a deep recovery mode and was just it was sort

444
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 5: of my year of Yes, you know, I was like

445
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 5: I'd moved to New York. I was just trying stuff out.

446
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 5: If anyone was like, I'm going to my grandma's birthday

447
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 5: party in Sicily, you want to come, like, I'd show up.

448
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 5: Like I was just like going everywhere, doing everything, kind

449
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 5: of exploring what was going on, and but staying really

450
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 5: fascinated about just the power of television, the power of film,

451
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,480
Speaker 5: the fat power of media in general. When I sort

452
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 5: of kind of understood how entrenched news is and has become,

453
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 5: it sort of lost some of its luster to me.

454
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 5: And so I ended up meeting two women who I've

455
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 5: now formed a cup company with Culture House, and they

456
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 5: are longtime filmmakers and producers, and the three of us

457
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 5: sort of got together and came up with a kind

458
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 5: of a company that was really about three things. One

459
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 5: telling a different type of story in a different type

460
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 5: of way. That's on TV. That is, that's entertainment first, right,

461
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 5: people know where to go if they want a lecture,

462
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:24,959
Speaker 5: they know where to go if they want a sermon,

463
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 5: it's not typically Hulu or Apple Plus or whatever. And

464
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 5: so we try and make entertainment first TV, but that

465
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 5: is culturally constructive. And then we also have a business

466
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 5: that runs production services. So there are extraordinary production companies

467
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 5: owned by black and brown women all throughout the country

468
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 5: and the world. Very few of them actually manage the

469
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 5: physical production of the shows that they create, which means

470
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 5: that all these extraordinary creators often then have to subcontract

471
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,959
Speaker 5: their project to have it be made, have the controlled,

472
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 5: have the hiring and staffing controlled by the people who

473
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 5: can afford the overhead, of the edit base, of the insurance,

474
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 5: of the payroll, of the back end. And the vast

475
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 5: majority of those companies are white. In fact, I think

476
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 5: almost all of them are, with one or two exceptions,

477
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 5: Culture House my company being one of them. And so

478
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 5: we started the company in twenty eighteen and really focused

479
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 5: on premium unscripted series. So we've had to come out

480
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 5: so far. Ones that called The Hairtails on Hulu with

481
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 5: Tracy ls Ross and Oprah Winfrey, and one is called

482
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 5: Growing Up, which on Disney Plus about adolescents and mental

483
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 5: health with Bree Larsen.

484
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 4: Just some minor names, just some minor people to start with. Yeah,

485
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 4: I loved it, just like casually drop over one day,

486
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:47,199
Speaker 4: you know.

487
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 5: We Yeah, we have two shows coming out this year,

488
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 5: one about black Twitter, one about women in hip hop.

489
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 5: We're doing something about surfing, We're doing something about some

490
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 5: artists out of Brazil, like we're doing also and projects.

491
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 5: But all of them have a really kind of cultural forward,

492
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 5: entertainment forward approach, but have a real purpose to them.

493
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 5: They have a real beating heart.

494
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, how do you find that balance of being entertainment

495
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 4: first and wanting to create that storytelling framework to move

496
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 4: culture because I find that when you're grounded in politics,

497
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 4: the people that are interested in doing culture work or storytelling,

498
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 4: it's so policy driven that it doesn't resonate, Like it

499
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 4: just truly doesn't. And then on the entertainment side, like

500
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 4: if someone's coming from entertainment and just like has some

501
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 4: idea they want to get across, it's often really frustrating

502
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 4: when you're in politics and like that's not quite right,

503
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 4: it's actually not quite what we're trying to say. So

504
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 4: I feel like I've been at a frustrating intersection of

505
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 4: that for a long time, and I haven't figured it out.

506
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 5: How do you balance those two competing interests. I you know,

507
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 5: I have this working thesis which I have not done

508
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 5: any actual science around so and I'm probably won't because

509
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 5: don't to be disproven. But there to me is about

510
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 5: There to me is a very different worldview from people

511
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 5: who are, say, like a middle aged millennial like myself,

512
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 5: I'm thirty six. The people above us and in age

513
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 5: and the people below us in age. And one of

514
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 5: the real defining differences did you grow up in ingesting

515
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 5: information from a newspaper or did you grow up in

516
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 5: jesting information from an RSS feed? And if you grew

517
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 5: up reading a newspaper, you read the sports section, you

518
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,239
Speaker 5: read the real estate section, then the business section, then

519
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 5: then the local news, and the national news bah bah,

520
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 5: arts and culture blah blah blah, and they don't meet,

521
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 5: they never intersect. There are distinct categories for information and

522
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 5: that is how you have been trained to process information.

523
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 5: And when those sections start bleeding into each other, it

524
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 5: feels very jarring and confusing. If you grew up with

525
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 5: an RSS feed, it is perfectly normal, natural and expected

526
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 5: that you would see an article about CO two levels

527
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 5: and then Cardi B and then you know some local

528
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 5: B pollinators, and then your favorite show, and then your

529
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 5: favorite chef, and then Michelle Obama and then all of

530
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 5: it jumbled right next to each other, right and you

531
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 5: can start to understand that there's organic connections between all

532
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 5: of them because they've been presented in a fundamentally different way.

533
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 5: And so one of the things that I really think

534
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 5: about is who every time we're making a show, is like,

535
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 5: what is our audience? Who is our audience, and how

536
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 5: are they used to ingesting information? And if for some

537
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 5: reason this isn't this is foreign audience, and I think

538
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 5: the majority of people are going to be forty plus.

539
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 5: I will organize the actual story beats fundamentally differently. I

540
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 5: will think about the segments of the show, the format

541
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 5: of the show fundamentally differently than if it's for young people.

542
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 5: If it's for young people, people who are used to

543
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 5: seeing a feed, are used to scrolling, seeing thing disparate

544
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 5: things all in the same moment, I will organize information

545
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 5: in a really in a in a different way. And

546
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 5: so some of the times what the issue is is

547
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 5: thinking very clearly and strategically about what it is you're

548
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 5: making and then having a story to tell about how

549
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 5: you're making it and why you're making it that way,

550
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 5: to the people who are funding it, who are greenlighting it,

551
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 5: so that they can understand it's building in intentionality around

552
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 5: every single the actual mechanics of the story, instead of

553
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 5: trying to make it information first, thinking about like how

554
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 5: does this story function as a device that people then

555
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 5: can enter into an experience? And then I think also

556
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 5: just the fluency of it. I could rant for an

557
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 5: hour about kind of any major policy issue you can

558
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 5: imagine and never use Democrat Republican, never talk about any

559
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 5: matter of DC. Keep it purely in kind of cultural

560
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 5: or moral terms, keep it purely an anecdote, purely in story.

561
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 5: And being able to do that is also a really

562
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 5: important thing to have the ability to do both. That

563
00:27:58,400 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 5: makes so much sense.

564
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 4: Okay, so what stories do you want to tell that

565
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 4: you haven't gotten I don't know who green lights it?

566
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 5: Now?

567
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 4: Is it you green light yourself? Like, I don't know

568
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 4: what the powers that be are, But what are the

569
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 4: stories that you want to tell that haven't gotten made yet?

570
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 5: I don't think we're doing nearly enough about climate change,

571
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 5: whether that's like basic home makeover shows that teach you

572
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 5: to swap this for that, use this instead of that,

573
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 5: do this instead, Like where's the queer eye for home

574
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 5: climate or for like personal life choices. There's there's such

575
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 5: a there's such a vacuum, and I know that a

576
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 5: lot of there's the green light powers that be. There's

577
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 5: like green light authorities at major streamers who can say

578
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 5: yay or nay to your show. You know, I can

579
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 5: understand somewhat that they're in a tough box, but like

580
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 5: everyone's got to get on board with this, and we

581
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 5: need more cultural fodder for it. So that's that's certainly

582
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 5: one thing. I am super interested in reparations and putting

583
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 5: together a film about reparations and reparatory justice. Overall, I

584
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 5: think it's sort of really obvious to me that if

585
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 5: you don't, like I don't know if of anyone who

586
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 5: has conflict in their life, that if they don't say

587
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 5: sorry or change their behavior, that the problem goes away.

588
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 5: So like, I don't know, we're just diluting ourselves, that

589
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 5: this problem, but that our interracial issues are going away

590
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 5: if we don't meaningfully repair damage. That's just not how

591
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 5: conflict works. It's super obvious. I don't get it. So

592
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 5: I think that's a topic worth exploring. Yeah, I mean

593
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 5: I'm interested in so many things. You know, it's just ranges.

594
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 4: Oh, I love it. Okay, carry Twig culture host media.

595
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 4: Is there anything coming out soon that we can tune

596
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 4: in to see you in? Or how can we follow you?

597
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 5: Oh? You can follow me. I'm at Carrie Twig on Instagram.

598
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 5: I think I have a Twitter, but like I've never

599
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 5: just since useless and we have our black Twitter show.

600
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 5: I was coming out on Hulu. I don't have a

601
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 5: date yet sometime this fall. Also have a as yet

602
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 5: titled show on women hip hop coming out in the

603
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 5: fall as well on Netflix. And Yeah, I'm around.

604
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 4: I love We'll know it's you and we see it.

605
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, good to see you. Thanks Carrie, Thank you for

606
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 5: having me.

607
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 4: Thank you for listening to this episode of she Pivots.

608
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 4: Check back in weekly for more conversations with inspiring women.

609
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 4: To learn more about our guests, follow us on Instagram

610
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 4: at she Pivots the podcast. Leave a rating and comment

611
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 4: if you enjoyed this episode to help others learn about it.

612
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 4: A special thank you to our partner Marie Claire and

613
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 4: the team that made this episode possible. Talk to you

614
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 4: next week. She Pivots is hosted by me Emily Tish Sussman,

615
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 4: produced by Emily Eda Voloshik, with sound editing and mixing

616
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 4: from Nina Pollock and are you search and Planning for

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