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Speaker 1: It's hard to know who to trust these days. Man.

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Speaker 2: Listen, I'm sticking with my A one day ones.

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Speaker 1: No one is out here telling the truth. I feel like,

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Speaker 1: no matter what, it could even be something as honest

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Speaker 1: looking as a charity, and you have to start questioning, well,

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Speaker 1: where is this money going?

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Speaker 2: Who's really going to be held accountable. There's been some

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Speaker 2: conversation at least on my timeline recently, yes, about people

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Speaker 2: raising money, what happens to it? And you know, I

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Speaker 2: love a good juicy political thriller, So whether it's real

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Speaker 2: life or it's something i'm watching on Netflix, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: follow the money, what happens.

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Speaker 1: He's a kid a real life House of Cards over here.

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Speaker 1: She loves that stuff. Yes, she's an investigator.

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Speaker 2: I know we've talked about robo calls in the past.

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Speaker 2: We have now there is the GoFundMe. You got to

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Speaker 2: double check and check and make sure you know someone

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Speaker 2: who knows the creator of the gofund me to make

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Speaker 2: sure it's real.

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Speaker 1: Right. Fishing scams like where It'll be You'll see an

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Speaker 1: email and it'll look like it's from Apple because they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: confirm your email address here, which is a normal email

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Speaker 1: that all of us get from all types of places, right,

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Speaker 1: and then next thing you know, everything is hacked. Like,

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Speaker 1: next thing you know, like your own mama gonna show

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Speaker 1: up to your door talk about something. Can I borrow

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Speaker 1: fifty dollars? The next thing you know, it's not her,

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Speaker 1: it's a hologram.

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Speaker 2: It's a hologram. Hologram. Spam is next.

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Speaker 1: I'm t T and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify Studios.

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Speaker 1: This is dope.

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Speaker 2: Last, it feels like every where you look there's a scam,

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Speaker 2: or there's a you know, or somebody's trying to catch

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Speaker 2: you up in something and you gotta have your guard up.

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Speaker 1: We could talk about a lot of things. Actually we

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Speaker 1: can talk about Takashi six y nine. Yeah, tee it

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Speaker 1: up for the people as a kid, tell them what's

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Speaker 1: going on with Takashi.

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Speaker 2: Listen, Takashi is out here dry snitching. Okay. I got nervous.

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Speaker 2: I was like, is he gonna say something about me

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Speaker 2: that I.

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Speaker 1: Feel like is a huge scam because before he became

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Speaker 1: a rapper, he was just a normal kid.

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Speaker 2: He was a regular guy. Then he puts on this

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Speaker 2: other persona that lends him some credibility, and then he

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Speaker 2: starts calling out Jim Jones and Cardi B. And Cardi B,

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Speaker 2: and I know they have to feel like they've been

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Speaker 2: wrapped up in a scam exactly. You imagine minding your

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Speaker 2: business and then all of a sudden, somebody's bringing your

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Speaker 2: name up in front of a judge and to be

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Speaker 2: snitched on by somebody like Takashi six ' nine with

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Speaker 2: rainbow teeth. Jim Jones and Chrissy had a whole TV show,

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Speaker 2: and he managed not to snitch on himself, right, and

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Speaker 2: then you come up here and be reckless.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy. You know who I think is the biggest

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Speaker 1: scammer right now? All of these TV moms like Aunt

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Speaker 1: Becky and Felicity Huffman who are out here scam the

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Speaker 1: college admissions process to get their kids into the college

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Speaker 1: of their choice. And Becky was out here staging crew photos.

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Speaker 2: If you need a set designer for your college application,

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Speaker 2: you got to ask yourself some questions.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that isn't the college for you.

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Speaker 2: So I feel like we've touched on this a little

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Speaker 2: bit before.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in Lab three lighting me with our guest, Yamaday House,

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Speaker 1: but we kind of talked more about why people lie

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Speaker 1: and why people scam Today, we're flipping it on its

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Speaker 1: head and we're saying, why do.

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Speaker 2: You keep getting calm? Why do you keep going for

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Speaker 2: these same scams?

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Speaker 1: Exactly? And I think this is important for everyone. So

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Speaker 1: pull up a chair, turn the volume all the.

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Speaker 2: Way up, and dive in with us. Let's get into

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Speaker 2: the recitation. So this really got us thinking, right, we

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Speaker 2: started talking about scams and spam and catfishing.

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Speaker 1: Catfishing is another huge thing, these romantic scams.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and when you really think about it, I try

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Speaker 2: to distill it down to like, what's the motivating factor here?

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Speaker 2: What's driving the person that's doing the scamming, and what

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Speaker 2: drives us to fall for the scam?

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Speaker 1: Right? Is it like a specific type of person that

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Speaker 1: falls for these scams or a specific type of person

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Speaker 1: that is doing the scamming?

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Speaker 2: How do you tell if something is a scam or not?

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Speaker 2: Who falls for scam A but not scam B. Who's

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Speaker 2: gonna fall for in person scam versus an online scam?

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Speaker 2: I'm not falling for an in person scam.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I would never fall for an in

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Speaker 1: person scam. I'm too, You're skeptical of every exactly I'm

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Speaker 1: like I wake up in the morning, I roll over

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Speaker 1: look at my husband. I'm like, is that you for real?

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Speaker 2: And like for us, I think I'm savvy on the internet,

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Speaker 2: but I also know that I was on AOL chat

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Speaker 2: rooms like age Sex Language. Anybody want to meet me

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Speaker 2: at the carnival?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was definitely. I was what I probably like

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Speaker 1: eleven and saying I was like fifteen or sixteen.

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Speaker 2: So you have been a scammer for a while? Yes, wow,

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Speaker 2: do you didn't even hesitate?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean because if you ever scammed me never,

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Speaker 1: I could never you would tell it if.

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Speaker 2: You did, and you bet not let me out.

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Speaker 1: Episode.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, it'll be the last episode. Lord, No, wun't.

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Speaker 1: She would never let me live that down. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: let's get into the dissection. Our guest today is doctor

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Speaker 1: Losana Harris.

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Speaker 3: I'm a social neuroscientist, which means I study social behavior

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Speaker 3: and brain.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Harris is an Associate Professor of Experimental psychology at

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Speaker 2: University College in London.

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Speaker 1: His work focuses on what's called person perception or social perception,

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Speaker 1: which is all about how humans process each other. And

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Speaker 1: this is really important to understand, right because when it

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Speaker 1: comes to scams. We need to know how we decide

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Speaker 1: to trust somebody or not.

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Speaker 3: You look at things like audios, so how do people's

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Speaker 3: voices sound, things like smiles, the sort of chemical communication

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Speaker 3: that happens between people, and measure people's responses in terms

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Speaker 3: of their physiologies.

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Speaker 2: And by physiology, he means things like facial muscle movements, sweat,

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Speaker 2: heart rate, hormones, or brain activity. Measuring those things can

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Speaker 2: indicate whether someone is anxious or nervous, for example.

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Speaker 1: But doctor Harris isn't just studying how people process each other.

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Speaker 1: He's also interested in how person perception affects the decisions

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Speaker 1: we make.

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Speaker 3: Until we look at things like moral decision making, legal

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Speaker 3: decision making, financial decision making. And then the majority of

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Speaker 3: those studies we use sort of classic economic games where

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Speaker 3: we put people in competitive or cooperative situations with others

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Speaker 3: and just look at the kinds of decisions they need.

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Speaker 2: And you're probably wondering, how can we relate this back

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Speaker 2: to con artists? Right, So, as we're talking about con

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Speaker 2: artists and those that are being con there are some

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Speaker 2: interesting context here because in essence, a con artist is

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Speaker 2: using these ideas of person perception to basically con their victim.

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Speaker 1: They know that their victim will be processing them and

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Speaker 1: making decison visions based on that processing, and then they

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Speaker 1: use that to manipulate the victim. But I don't really

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Speaker 1: understand how.

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Speaker 2: This brings us to social cognition, which doctor Harris studies

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Speaker 2: is something you and I do every single day, and

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Speaker 2: it basically allows us to interact with each other. Is

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Speaker 2: the process of figuring out what's in someone else's head.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to be in your head.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of tabs open man, fifty tabs and

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Speaker 1: fifty windows, and all those tabs represent my thoughts, feelings, emotions,

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Speaker 1: goals or desires.

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Speaker 3: Now, if you think about it, that's a very difficult

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Speaker 3: thing to do, because I could never see your mind, right,

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Speaker 3: I could never see your thoughts. I have to infer

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Speaker 3: them from your behaviors. And in order to do that,

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Speaker 3: I have to crunch a lot of information. I have

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Speaker 3: to crunch a lot of numbers. I have to put

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Speaker 3: together lots of statistical information. And that leads me to

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Speaker 3: make a guess about your internal state, your mind, what's

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Speaker 3: on your mind.

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Speaker 1: And this idea of so cognition really shifted how scientists

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Speaker 1: thought about decision making. Historically, economists thought that people just

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Speaker 1: made decisions based off of their own self interest, so

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Speaker 1: basically what they could do to get themselves ahead. So

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Speaker 1: it's a situation that involves money, then you're just going

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Speaker 1: to do whatever yields the most profit, and that was

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Speaker 1: considered the rational line of thinking. But if the decision

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Speaker 1: involves another person, it's not that straightforward.

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Speaker 3: And lots of psychological and behavioral economic research has shown

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Speaker 3: that people aren't rational in their decision making and social factors.

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Speaker 3: And when I say social factors, I mean other people

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Speaker 3: or the different motivations or goals people have really biased

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Speaker 3: their decision making and directions where it appears not to

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Speaker 3: be rational.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting, right, because I think when I think of cons,

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Speaker 2: I think of them always being about money. And when

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Speaker 2: you think about cons that are about money, if it's

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Speaker 2: just like are you going to pick up this extra

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Speaker 2: dollar on the ground, that feels easy, Like the rational

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Speaker 2: decision is yes, I'm gonna pick it up, and I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna have some more money in my pocket. Right, But

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Speaker 2: if I have to pull the dollar out of somebody's pocket,

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Speaker 2: ooh man, that's a little different.

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Speaker 1: It's a little different.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: And so what you've seen a lot of financial decision

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Speaker 3: making involving other people or Wendy social factors are relevant

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Speaker 3: is that people will often for goal money in order

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Speaker 3: to do things that are consistent with social and moral rules,

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Speaker 3: goals and values.

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Speaker 2: My league had a podcast recently about getting your finances

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Speaker 2: in order and all this stuff, and she talks about

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Speaker 2: people that feel peer pressure to spend money because other

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Speaker 2: people are spending money even if they know they don't

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Speaker 2: have it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that emotion.

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Speaker 2: No, So, like if you're all out and everybody's like,

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Speaker 2: well we're gonna go out, We're gonna do rounds with drinks.

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Speaker 2: And she was saying, you should just say I only

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Speaker 2: have fifty dollars a night. Now, that doesn't mean you

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Speaker 2: shouldn't have additional rounds, but that's all I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be spending, right, even that, right, the people you're around, like,

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Speaker 2: you find what are the social norms around the situation? Right,

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Speaker 2: So people may be like I'm having the lobster.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're like, I'll have the chicken tenders, but

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Speaker 1: now you can't. You feel like you can't get chicken

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Speaker 1: tenders because if so and so is getting the lobster,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, okay, so is that kind of nice?

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Speaker 1: Is that that's what we're doing? Okay, I guess I'm

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Speaker 1: having the lobster too.

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Speaker 3: And what we and others have been arguing is that

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Speaker 3: while those social decisions are actually rational, it's just that

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Speaker 3: you care about something else. You don't care about maximizing

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Speaker 3: financial profit. You care about things like maintaining social relationships,

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Speaker 3: for instance, or you care things that you care about,

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Speaker 3: things like your reputation.

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Speaker 2: So our behaviors can be based on self interest, but

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Speaker 2: if another person is involved, our decisions may be a

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Speaker 2: little more socially minded. Why is that?

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Speaker 1: What we learned from doctor Harris is that our decision

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Speaker 1: making is really dependent on our motivations.

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Speaker 2: Our motivations are the things that drive us to do

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Speaker 2: what we do, and they're not always the same.

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Speaker 3: And so what could be happening is that those motives

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Speaker 3: become dominant or salient in those situations because those motives

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Speaker 3: are primary. Right as we evolved as a species, those

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Speaker 3: were the things that basically drove our evolution. So our

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Speaker 3: evolution was driven because human beings are what we call

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Speaker 3: a hypersocial species more than almost any other species. We

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Speaker 3: depend on other people.

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Speaker 1: In general, there is a range of motives about three

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Speaker 1: to ten that drive human behavior, but doctor Harris uses

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Speaker 1: one set of theory that talks about five of them.

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Speaker 3: Belonging, understanding human beings, like to know why particular things happen. Control,

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Speaker 3: You want to feel like you're not just sort of

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Speaker 3: randomly going through life, but you're making decisions and you

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Speaker 3: have some type of agency in your decision making what

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Speaker 3: is called self enhancement. So we're motivated to feel good

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Speaker 3: in general, to have this sort of positive feeling about ourselves. Right,

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Speaker 3: we want to feel valued and loved and respected. And

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Speaker 3: then trustworthiness is the fifth one.

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Speaker 2: Let's kind of just hone in on two motives.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so for this episode, we're going to focus on

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Speaker 1: the need to belong and the need to trust.

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Speaker 3: And so I think when you have these types of

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Speaker 3: cons they usually take advantage of these motives that people have.

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Speaker 3: They tap into these deficits of particular pasts might have

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Speaker 3: in terms of belonging or trusting, for instance, and they

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Speaker 3: exploit that for financial benefit.

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Speaker 2: I thought one that doctor Harris hit on that was

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Speaker 2: most interesting to me was trustworthiness, and he explained that

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Speaker 2: as our need to trust others.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like that falls directly in line with

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Speaker 1: the GoFundMe stuff. So when we think about go fund me,

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Speaker 1: it's not just oh, I'm giving money to just anybody,

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Speaker 1: somebody that I don't know. The people who are putting

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Speaker 1: out these gofundmes they really put like a real personal

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Speaker 1: touch on it where you feel really connected to them.

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Speaker 1: So then you're more likely to give because it kind

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Speaker 1: of tugs at your heart's You don't want them to

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Speaker 1: be lying about little Timmy needing a new heart. You

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Speaker 1: want to trust them, Like I'm not going to go

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Speaker 1: into that thinking that I'm being scammed. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go into that thinking I'm being a good person and

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Speaker 1: donate my twenty dollars.

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Speaker 3: When you go to a restaurant, you don't worry that

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Speaker 3: they're putting poison in your food, right, the thought never

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Speaker 3: crosses your mind because of that motivation to trust people.

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Speaker 3: And so that's how we typically function.

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Speaker 1: That's why I could never do that, like dining in

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Speaker 1: the dark stuff, I just don't trust it. I need

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Speaker 1: to be able to see who.

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Speaker 4: Is dining in the dark.

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Speaker 2: What is that get heard of that no.

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Speaker 1: People are going to restaurants and these restaurants are like

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Speaker 1: specialty restaurants and everything is pitch black. No, they tell

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Speaker 1: you what's on the menu, and you order, they bring

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Speaker 1: it out in front of you, and you eat in

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Speaker 1: the dark.

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Speaker 2: First of all, the visual component.

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Speaker 1: We've already talked about this dining in the Cookout episode.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I don't want to lose that.

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Speaker 1: I'm not eating it just because I just don't trust it.

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Speaker 1: I need to be able to see. What if there's

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Speaker 1: a hair in my food? What if there's a fingernail,

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Speaker 1: what if there's a fly like I need.

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Speaker 4: Be able to nail.

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Speaker 1: You never know, You never know.

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Speaker 2: The other dominant motive that's relevant to con artists is belonging.

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Speaker 2: Our family, friends, relationships, clubs, churches, even Twitter and Facebook.

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Speaker 2: All of these foster our inherent need to belong to

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Speaker 2: something bigger than ourselves.

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Speaker 3: And so if, for instance, someone isn't having their belonging

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Speaker 3: need match right, they're going to be highly motivated to

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Speaker 3: find another person to connect to. Even if I've never

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Speaker 3: met this person face to face and it's just been

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Speaker 3: an online interaction, they're still fulfilling my need to belong right.

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Speaker 2: So, if you want to be a part of a group,

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Speaker 2: you pay this certain amount of money, or if you

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Speaker 2: make friends with someone online or something, they say, well,

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Speaker 2: I would love to keep talking to you, but in

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Speaker 2: order for me to keep my phone on, I need

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Speaker 2: thirty dollars my phone.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break and when we come back,

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Speaker 1: we'll get into how these motivations make us vulnerable to

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Speaker 1: scammers and who gets targeted the most. One of the

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Speaker 1: times that I feel like I'm being scammed the most

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Speaker 1: is during the election seasons.

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Speaker 2: Yes, like I don't.

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Speaker 1: There's just so much going on and I don't know

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Speaker 1: who to believe. They're saying all these numbers, and they're

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Speaker 1: saying all these things, and I'm like, are you lying

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Speaker 1: just so that I can vote for you?

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Speaker 2: Or how many people did you poll? How did you

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Speaker 2: phrase the question? Was it leading? Is this a real poll?

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Speaker 2: When you call me on the phone? Are you a telemarketer?

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Speaker 2: Are you really with somebody's campaign? What is going on?

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Speaker 2: And who is knocking at the door?

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Speaker 1: Right, We've got a lot of questions, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you do too, So if you have questions about this,

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Speaker 1: make sure that you send us an email at contact

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Speaker 1: at Dope Black podcast dot com or give us a

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Speaker 1: call at two zero two five six seven seven zero

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Speaker 1: two eight, or y'all can slide into our DM on

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Speaker 1: Instagram or Twitter at dope last podcasts.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's get back to the lab. So are

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Speaker 2: all these scams we're reading about and hearing about online

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Speaker 2: happening because people are more susceptible? Or is it because

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Speaker 2: con artists are just really good at taking advantage of

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Speaker 2: these deficits in our motivations.

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Speaker 3: I think what happens in these calms is a bit

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Speaker 3: of both. You get the people who are more susceptible

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Speaker 3: and you get colms developed by people who are insightful

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Speaker 3: in terms of the kinds of deficits. Humans may have

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Speaker 3: interims of their needs for belonging, so, for instance, the

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Speaker 3: elderly get targeteds a lot, usually because their belongingness is

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Speaker 3: a lot lower than the general population. We tend to

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Speaker 3: isolate the elderly in Western societies.

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Speaker 1: The elderly are one of the most targeted groups by

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Speaker 1: con artists, and it's not just because of their need

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Speaker 1: to belong and to trust. There are also neurobiological reasons

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Speaker 1: why they are more susceptible.

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Speaker 3: Most people think of the brain as something that's like

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Speaker 3: a computer machine where it's sort of hardwired. But that's

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Speaker 3: absolutely not true. The brain is very what we call elastic.

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Speaker 3: It's flexible, it can adopt quite easily. As you get older,

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Speaker 3: the rate of change slows quite dramatically, which is why

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Speaker 3: elderly people tend to be stuck in their ways, as

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Speaker 3: we see, because the brain isn't being as flexible.

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Speaker 2: So as you get older, there's sort of a cocktail

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Speaker 2: of factors that make you more susceptible.

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Speaker 1: A greater motivation to belong and the inability to easily

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Speaker 1: adapt to new social contexts, which might lead to you

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Speaker 1: trusting people that others may be a little bit wary of.

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Speaker 2: If someone is reaching out to you on the internet

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Speaker 2: or the phone, and it's consistent with how you've always

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Speaker 2: interacted with friendly, trustworthy people, your brain's going to say, yes,

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Speaker 2: you can trust this person, and it fits right because

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Speaker 2: for your whole life you've learned that when people approach

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Speaker 2: you in a certain way, there are usually a certain

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Speaker 2: type of people, which means you can trust them.

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Speaker 3: But now things have changed completely on Your brain isn't

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Speaker 3: catching up as quickly because it's not as elastic, and

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Speaker 3: so you're still going to make decisions based on not

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Speaker 3: myself learning history you've had, so.

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Speaker 1: Your beliefs are set, but you're in a totally different

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Speaker 1: social context. And technology has really shifted that context dramatically

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Speaker 1: in the last decade. But it's not just elderly people

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Speaker 1: who are the target. Technology has made us all more trusting.

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Speaker 1: Think about how much you trust the internet.

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Speaker 2: I really trust the Internet. I remember being so nervous

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Speaker 2: the first time I entered my debit card info online girl.

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Speaker 2: I got an American Express, and I was like, nervous,

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Speaker 2: no more. Okay. The other day I was at work

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Speaker 2: and I was typing something in and I said, why

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Speaker 2: isn't my address coming up like I wanted it to

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Speaker 2: auto populate save all my info.

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Speaker 1: If it's an online story and it doesn't have Apple

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Speaker 1: pay where I can't just put my thumb down. I'm

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Speaker 1: very frustrated, and as skeptical as I feel about other things,

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Speaker 1: it's so interesting, right what we decide to trust. I mean,

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Speaker 1: even on Instagram. I feel like now a lot of

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Speaker 1: y'all gonna try and be out here lying but buying

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Speaker 1: stuff off of Instagram, honey, and sometimes that stuff don't

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Speaker 1: show up the way you thought, which has happened to

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Speaker 1: me a number of times.

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Speaker 2: I've always been skeptical of Instagram. I was skeptical of

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Speaker 2: Asos and everybody was buying stuff and loving it, and

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Speaker 2: so no, that's real. Yeah, it's real, but I know.

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Speaker 2: And the same thing with Fashionova, only Instagram people were

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Speaker 2: wearing it. It was like Instagram clothes. I just bought.

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Speaker 2: I think my first thing off of Instagram recently, I

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Speaker 2: bought a background. Today. Somebody posted this digital illustrator. I'll

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Speaker 2: put it on the show notes for people to check

392
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Speaker 2: it out, and she had drawn this thing of Kicky

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Speaker 2: Palmer and says, sorry to this man, I had to

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Speaker 2: buy it. I had to buy it.

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Speaker 1: You didn't have a choice.

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Speaker 3: And I think now you have a generation of people

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Speaker 3: who aren't suspicious of technology at all, right, because they

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Speaker 3: feel like they have a sit in mastery over the technology.

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Speaker 3: So I think because of the diminished suspicion people, in

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Speaker 3: some ways, they're going to be more susceptible to these

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Speaker 3: cons in these kinds.

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Speaker 2: That's a really good point. But why is that?

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Speaker 3: What's happened with technologies, Most of the interactions aren't face

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Speaker 3: to face anymore, And I say, huge change for human beings.

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Speaker 3: So think about it. For our entire evolutionary history, every

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Speaker 3: time we've communicated with other people, we've sat next to them,

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Speaker 3: we've stood next to them, we've seen them. So in

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Speaker 3: addition to sort of making inferences about what they're thinking

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Speaker 3: based on what they're seeing, we can look at their

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Speaker 3: facial expression. We can get chemical information, right, because if

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Speaker 3: you're anxious, you'll produce particular hormones and I might pick

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Speaker 3: that up.

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Speaker 2: And that blew my mind because as a fan of

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Speaker 2: FaceTime and all the video chats, I'm like, I'm getting

415
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Speaker 2: way more information than if I talk on the phone

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Speaker 2: with someone. But also, anybody can have any prop behind

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Speaker 2: them and say they are XYZ whoever, whoever.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look at catfish. There are people who steal

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Speaker 1: whole videos of other people and pretend to be that person.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of information we're not getting when we

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Speaker 2: engage with people online. Do you remember all those measurements

422
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Speaker 2: doctor Harris mentioned when he does the study he's on

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Speaker 2: people processing. We're not getting any of that and it's

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Speaker 2: actually affecting our decision.

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Speaker 1: And not only that, but the Internet has made it

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Speaker 1: possible for us to engage with way more people and

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Speaker 1: on a daily basis, So we're getting less information but

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Speaker 1: interacting with way more people.

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Speaker 2: I talk about this all the time with my friends

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Speaker 2: on the apps. Right when I say the apps, I

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Speaker 2: mean bumble, okaycupe it hinge, all of that, right, And

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Speaker 2: I say, they're like, oh my goodness, swipe, but these

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Speaker 2: people are crazy this, this is this oh my gosh

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah. And I'm like, you're just interacting with

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Speaker 2: way more people than you ever would. If you were

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Speaker 2: walking down the street and you passed fifty people, You're

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Speaker 2: not going to talk to all fifty of those people.

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Speaker 2: Now you're on an app, sitting in your living room

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Speaker 2: and you're about to swipe two hundred people. I mean

440
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: not really, but you know what I mean. It's different.

441
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:48,359
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's just different.

442
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

443
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 2: It also makes me think about texting.

444
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,640
Speaker 1: A lot could be lost in a text message, yes night.

445
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 1: I think we've all been guilty of that when somebody

446
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 1: like you send a text message or you receive a

447
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 1: text message and you're like, what's that supposed to me?

448
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 1: You're missing out on all of these other real person

449
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 1: to person interactions that give you all the contexts that

450
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 1: you need to really know what's being said.

451
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 3: But if you look at millennials now, right, all of

452
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 3: their interactions are happening on the internet. I mean it's fascinating.

453
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 3: I look at teenagers and they're standing in a group

454
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 3: and they're talking to each other sort of, but they're

455
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 3: also talking on their devices, and so the way they're

456
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,199
Speaker 3: interacting has changed completely. And that's just the way of

457
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 3: human beings. Right. We are continually evolving and changing.

458
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 2: So we're less suspicious, but maybe we're also developing more

459
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 2: rigorous detectors to compensate for that loss of information.

460
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, if we've evolved to this point, maybe we can

461
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: keep evolving.

462
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 2: I think we're developing all these tools right to know

463
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 2: what's a real email, you know, all those some of

464
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 2: the websites will say, have a question click here. I

465
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 2: can tell that's a bot or a real person.

466
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: Me too.

467
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: First thing I do when they say how are you today?

468
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 2: I say terrible? Now what are you gonna say? Bot?

469
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 2: Will you show some empathy?

470
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 1: Right? If it's about it's not, it's gonna say what

471
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 1: can I help you with today?

472
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 2: We're getting better at it. I think we're getting better

473
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 2: at it. To bake up for that missing information online.

474
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 3: For people in my generation, I think we're always going

475
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 3: to be suspicious because the Internet came when we knew

476
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 3: there was no such internet, and we had a lot

477
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 3: of those early teething experiences that really solidified how we

478
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 3: think about this technology. So even though we mean you

479
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,680
Speaker 3: that as much as the millennials do, maybe not as much,

480
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 3: we have a different relationship to it.

481
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 1: So as humans evolved, can the con artists evolve too?

482
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 2: And are we going to go backwards where everybody's so

483
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 2: comfortable with technology that now we're all going to fall

484
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 2: for like Frank abagneil catch me if you can type

485
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 2: scams frite, somebody's gonna send you a piece of mail. Yes,

486
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: you're going to sign away your whole life exactly.

487
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 3: Artists can take advantage of that by targeting specific demographics

488
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 3: of people, people who have more or less experience with

489
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 3: the Internet, people who use the Internet in particular ways.

490
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 3: And I think that's where you see it.

491
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 2: But that might not actually be a bad thing. Doctor

492
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 2: Harris told us about this theory that links back to

493
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 2: humans being hypersocial. Remember we were talking about that earlier

494
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 2: in the different human motivations.

495
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 3: In the seventies, there was a theory that said, well,

496
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 3: the reason we got this additional intelligence is because we're

497
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 3: hyper social, and solving social problems is the hardest kind

498
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 3: of problem you can solve, because you have to solve

499
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 3: things like deception where somebody is telling you something about

500
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 3: how they feel, but there's no way of verifying that

501
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 3: information at all. And so the idea is that things

502
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 3: like deception pushed us to become smarter people. So if

503
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 3: you believe that, then what's going to happen is we're

504
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 3: always going to be good at detecting deception. So even

505
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 3: though we may be more or less trusting in different situations,

506
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 3: when a new technology comes in with usually it takes

507
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,719
Speaker 3: us a while to adjust, well, particularly a tune towards

508
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 3: detecting deception, arguably because it's what drove our evolution.

509
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: So solving social problems like deception has helped us evolve.

510
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: So when you think about it this way, cons and

511
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 1: scams are kind of cyclical. Yeah, we get deceived, we

512
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: learn and adapt, social context changes, the deception becomes something else,

513
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: we learn and adapt, and the cycle continues. And this

514
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: theory says that's what's driven our evolution.

515
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 2: I guess we're developing a new set of skills that

516
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 2: we're adding to our interpersonal decepticon type toolbox. Right, but

517
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 2: then I just like, what is it going to look

518
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 2: like later?

519
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 4: Right?

520
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 2: Is there going to be a special shimmer to holograms

521
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: so we can know your bootleg hologram this is a

522
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: real hologram?

523
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,479
Speaker 1: Like is the next step like voice simulation? So like

524
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: if you've ever recorded a video of yourself like they

525
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: have that now on a Snapchat or on Instagram, then

526
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: somebody can take your voice and make it sound like you.

527
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: I mean, they're clipping up, you know, for in the

528
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 2: public eye. They're clipping up people's speeches from various different

529
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: events and making it seem like they're saying something else.

530
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: And we already know that all of the stuff that

531
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: we put on social media is kept and archived, and

532
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: so essentially somebody could take all those things and string

533
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: a sentence together.

534
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 2: That's like something you never said, Hey Zekiah.

535
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 1: I need your help, can you please send me one

536
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: hundred dollars?

537
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 2: I would send it. I know you would, Yeah, right,

538
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: I would be like, hey, gird I want to help you.

539
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 4: But that's it for Lab fourteen.

540
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: Don't forget to check out our website for the cheat

541
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: sheet on today's episode.

542
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 2: You can find it and sign up for our newsletter

543
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: at Dope Labs podcast dot com.

544
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: Also, we love hearing from you. What do you think

545
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: about today's lab? What are your ideas for labs? Our

546
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: number is two zero two five six seven seven zero

547
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: two eight.

548
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 2: You can also find us on Twitter and Instagram at

549
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: Dope Labs Podcast. T T is on Twitter at d

550
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: R Underscore t Sho.

551
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: And you can find Zakia at z said So.

552
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 2: Follow us on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

553
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: Special thanks to our guest doctor Losana Harris. He has

554
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: a beautiful website, go check it out at ltdash Harris

555
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: dot info. We'll also link to some of his other

556
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: work in our show notes.

557
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: Our producer is Jimmy Radlet Mass of Wave Runner Studios.

558
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: Mixing and sound design by Hanns Brown and special thanks

559
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: to Tyler Adams.

560
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: Original theme music is by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura,

561
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 1: with additional music by Elijah Lex Harvey. Dope Labs is

562
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: a production of Spotify Studios and Mega Owned Media Group

563
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: and is executive.

564
00:27:50,920 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 2: Produced by US T. T. Shadia and Zakiah Wattley. I'm

565
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 2: motivated to trust other people.

566
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: I know you are. My friend's a kid talks to

567
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: all the strangers and I'm like, hey, hey, we don't

568
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: know them. They're like, oh no, they're great. They're going

569
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: to another they're going to another establishment to continue their night.

570
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: We should go with them. And I'm like, we don't

571
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: know these clowns.

572
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 2: But that also is because I don't have any deficits

573
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 2: in control. I feel like, I, if this goes lift,

574
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 2: I'm getting ready to turn turn this night very differently

575
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 2: for these folks.

576
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: Right.

577
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: Sorry to that man, sorry to this man.

578
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: I don't know