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Speaker 1: On the Beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies

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Speaker 1: have women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends

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Speaker 1: and husbands? Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in

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Speaker 1: best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hello

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus.

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Speaker 1: My name is Caitlin Darante, and welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: Damn Cast. This is a podcast where we talk about

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Speaker 1: a lot of things. We talked about representation, uh in movies,

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Speaker 1: of of women, of marginalized groups. We talk about representation

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Speaker 1: and how guess what it's usually bad? What do you mean?

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Speaker 1: I mean, have you seen a movie before? No, I

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Speaker 1: have managed to never see it. Let's go back to

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Speaker 1: the beginning. So there are things called movies, and they're

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Speaker 1: so aggressive. They're so aggressive. What I have to reckon

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Speaker 1: with every day of my life is the fact that

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Speaker 1: my favorite thing is movies. I love movies. I went

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Speaker 1: to school twice about movies and they're bad. They're all

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Speaker 1: just there's so most of them are just trash. And

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Speaker 1: I really have to reconcile that the thing that I

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Speaker 1: love and have made a career out of and have

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Speaker 1: made my like, is my biggest hobby is just bad

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Speaker 1: in their life? Has ever liked something good? You know,

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Speaker 1: such thing as good things? Anyway, so we the show

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Speaker 1: is called the Bechdel Cast. But if you've been listening

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Speaker 1: for a while now, you know that the Bechdel Test

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Speaker 1: is becoming increasingly less important to the show. But that's

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Speaker 1: what we named it, so that's what we have to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge that it's there. But anyway, so we use that

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Speaker 1: as just a jumping off point to initiate a larger

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Speaker 1: conversation about representation in film and um. The Bechdel Test

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Speaker 1: is a media test created by queer cartoonist Ellison Becktel,

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Speaker 1: sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test, and it requires that

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Speaker 1: our version of it, our updated version of it, requires

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Speaker 1: that we've made alterations. We have not been approval from anyone,

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Speaker 1: but that is just um, what it's like to be brave. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're our own bosses. Yeah, we're girl bosses. We're girl bosses,

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Speaker 1: and we make the rules. Yes, girl. Our Becktel test

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Speaker 1: requires that two people of any marginalized gender UM that

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Speaker 1: includes women, that includes all trans people, that includes non

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Speaker 1: binary people, that includes intersex people, UH must speak to

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Speaker 1: each other about something other than a man assists man

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't happen a lot. It doesn't happen a lot.

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Speaker 1: But Jamie, I would like to try it with you

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Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, let's do it? Okay? Um? Hey Jamie? Yes? Um,

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Speaker 1: wouldst thou like to live deliciously? You're you're like, quoting

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Speaker 1: a male goat? Does that count? If you're reading me? Actually,

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Speaker 1: this is like an a level of the test. We

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Speaker 1: never explored if two women are okay, So if we're

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Speaker 1: this is pointless. But if we're like, if we're quoting

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Speaker 1: like non gendered quotes but they're from a male goat,

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Speaker 1: does that pass the test? Maybe not? I want to

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Speaker 1: say it does just because the goat is an icon,

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm I'm reclaiming the goat is the

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Speaker 1: protagonist of the film. I was not ready for how

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Speaker 1: what a goat heavy plot we were in for Here,

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Speaker 1: I realized that I knew very little. What I thought

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Speaker 1: I knew about this movie was wrong because I was like,

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Speaker 1: I did not think this was a talking goat movie.

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Speaker 1: Spoiler alert. The goat talks, well, the goat becomes a

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Speaker 1: man or the devil and then talks I think, But

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't I wasn't sure this movie was.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm just like this movie it was either. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it was like a little bit too smarter,

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Speaker 1: too stupid for me. Don't know which, don't know which,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Let's bring our guest up. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about the which or it if you? Because there's men

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Speaker 1: are so annoying when they make movies. They're like, no,

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Speaker 1: we're not using a W because reasons like so, it's

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Speaker 1: the guest today. She is a Lakota native comedy writer

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Speaker 1: host of the Woman of Size podcast. It's Jenna sch Meeting. Hello, Thanks,

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Speaker 1: happy to be with you today. We're rebranding this is cast.

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Speaker 1: I was something about seeing that made me furious, like,

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Speaker 1: there's no way. He went for two v's and then

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Speaker 1: I verified on the Wikipedia page. I'm like, sure enough

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Speaker 1: he went for I looked it up as well, and

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Speaker 1: it said something about a language called a Nokian. Did

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Speaker 1: you did? I don't know it was it's a witch's language,

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Speaker 1: of course there. It's just like there, a man goes

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Speaker 1: to a library one time and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: the movies called the vich You're dislike so true he's

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Speaker 1: so authentic to the moment um. Yeah wait, let me

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Speaker 1: there's something about it on Wikipedia about you didn't have

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Speaker 1: like what seems like a grounded reason. I just thought

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Speaker 1: it was a very silliest. It just seems like a

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Speaker 1: very pretentious choice. According to our favorite scholarly journal, Wikipedia,

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Speaker 1: director Robert Eggers said that he found this spelling in

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Speaker 1: a Jacobean era pamphlet that was on witchcraft. What is

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Speaker 1: the Jacobean area the era? Um, I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: would have to look up. I like, I will jerk

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Speaker 1: off the loser. Who does know who? The Jacobean there

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Speaker 1: there was? I I did, like I I did, uh

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Speaker 1: read all of Robert Eggers is like interviews from around

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Speaker 1: this movie's release, and he was I do at least

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Speaker 1: appreciate how he like explains his more pretentious choices as

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Speaker 1: mostly the answer is I went to the library and um,

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Speaker 1: yeah it said no W. So I was like, all right,

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Speaker 1: like he is, he isn't mercifully pretty straightforward and doesn't

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Speaker 1: give you, like a freshman film school x a nation

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Speaker 1: right to his weird choices. So I'm like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: that's more than I expected. I think. He said. Also

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Speaker 1: something like somebody was asked him, were you going for

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Speaker 1: a feminist message in the film, and he said, not really,

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Speaker 1: it just came out. I have the quote here, um

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Speaker 1: when Yeah, Basically, when asked about this feminist themes in

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Speaker 1: his movie, he said, quote, in all of my trying

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Speaker 1: to stand back and be objective about themes, feminism rises

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Speaker 1: to the top. There's nothing you can do about it.

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Speaker 1: It's just in your face. End quote. But like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I what That's a lot of words, but I don't

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Speaker 1: know what they're supposed to mean. And I don't know

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Speaker 1: what he means. I don't pebean by feminism. You know,

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Speaker 1: it just there. It is. It's it's just in your face.

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Speaker 1: It's so close you can't even see it, is what

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Speaker 1: I infer from that statement. Right, Honestly, based on these

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Speaker 1: weird interviews that I give he gives, I think I

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Speaker 1: kind of like him because I'm just like, he's just

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Speaker 1: a weird I don't I don't know. I haven't seen

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Speaker 1: the Lighthouse. I haven't either. Yeah, I have seen the Lighthouse,

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Speaker 1: and I really embarrassingly enjoyed it to the extent that

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Speaker 1: I dressed up as Robert Pattinson's character for Halloween this

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Speaker 1: past year. People seem to enjoy him like he and

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Speaker 1: he seems like, you know, it's just maybe just like

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Speaker 1: a weird guy. I don't know. That quote threw me

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Speaker 1: for a loop. I was like, truly, there is meaning

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Speaker 1: here I can't find I cannot find it. Um, I

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Speaker 1: certainly like him a lot better than the other like

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Speaker 1: high art, pretentious horror director of the moment right now,

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Speaker 1: Ari asked her, so, like, oh yeah, well yeah, I

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Speaker 1: really did think that it was an already aster film.

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Speaker 1: I'll be honest. When I started watching it, I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, this is like giving me strong hereditary vibes.

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Speaker 1: And then I look and I saw I was Eggers,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, well the other one, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean they both have real fixation on female trauma. Yes,

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Speaker 1: leaning into the Trauma already asked or needs to like

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Speaker 1: seek treatment a therapist about his fixation on women's trauma.

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Speaker 1: I like, I at least like Rob, at least like

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Speaker 1: in Robert. In this movie, it felt at least plot relevant.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, anyways, so Jenna, what is your

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Speaker 1: relationship with the which My relationship with this the VICH

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Speaker 1: is basically, I really like horror as a genre. I

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Speaker 1: love to be scared. I like to be scared, like

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Speaker 1: to be creeped out. I don't know why. It's not

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Speaker 1: something I'm out of, um cinematically, cinematically, but I remember

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Speaker 1: seeing it a long time ago, like when it came out,

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Speaker 1: and being like, this is a legitimately kind of creepy movie.

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Speaker 1: And in thinking about it now, I think that since

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Speaker 1: it originally came out, there has been this kind of

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Speaker 1: um resurgence of the Witch as a thing that mostly

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Speaker 1: in my life, white women have embodied as like a

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Speaker 1: as a lifestyle and a and a something I don't know,

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Speaker 1: and I find it to be very problematic as a

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Speaker 1: native person. Um. So I was like, let me watch

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Speaker 1: this again and see if it has at least like

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Speaker 1: origins of that, and it kind of does. Yeah, I've

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Speaker 1: I truly had no idea what this movie was. I

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Speaker 1: was just shocked at every turn. So that was your

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Speaker 1: first time seeing it, Jamie, Right, Yeah, I'm new to

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Speaker 1: the Vivich verse. I am not new to White Lady,

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Speaker 1: which is this is something that I've been around, but

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Speaker 1: the Yeah, no, I'm new to the Eggers extended universe. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is so weird because I grew up not too

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Speaker 1: far from where this movie happened, and Massachusetts children learn

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Speaker 1: I think, one of the more warped versions of this

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Speaker 1: moment in history, and so anytime I come across it,

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Speaker 1: I have to basically remember to unlearn all the stuff

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Speaker 1: I learned as a kid, because I just everything I

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Speaker 1: learned was incredibly wrong. And I even looked up. Um,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh right, I wonder if he's like

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Speaker 1: from New England, and Robert Eggers is absolutely from New England,

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Speaker 1: grew up going to Plymouth Plantation, the world worst, most

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Speaker 1: historically inaccurate tourist attraction, and just I was just like, okay,

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Speaker 1: So I wonder how much he I wonder if he's

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Speaker 1: made an effort to unlearn these things. And I left

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Speaker 1: unclear on that topic. Sure, what about your history, Caitlin. Um.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see it in theaters, although I remember the

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Speaker 1: buzz around it when it came out, because it came

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Speaker 1: out five years ago. I remember it being hailed as this,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, wow, this movie is the creepiest movie

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Speaker 1: of the decade. It's so scary, it's so good, it's beautiful,

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Speaker 1: it's haunting. All this stuff, so I was very intrigued

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Speaker 1: by it, even though horror is probably the genre that

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Speaker 1: I am least acquainted with. I'm getting I'm getting better

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Speaker 1: at having seen more horror films, but I don't seek

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Speaker 1: out horror the same way I do other genres. But

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Speaker 1: I was still intrigued by it, and I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I gotta see this. I think I saw it probably

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Speaker 1: later that year, or like in early sixteen or something,

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Speaker 1: not long after it came out, and I remember like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: being like, Wow, that was creepy, that was haunting, that

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Speaker 1: was mesmerizing, and didn't watch it again until we started

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Speaker 1: prepping for this episode. And now I feel super I

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Speaker 1: just have a lot of I don't know what to

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Speaker 1: make of it, and I'm excited to talk about it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm very I guess I just left very unclear on

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Speaker 1: what this movie was trying to say. Well, let me

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Speaker 1: ask you both this what was creepier to you? The

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Speaker 1: talking devil goat that they kept calling black fellop or

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Speaker 1: the elderly women woman's naked body. Okay, So I'm so

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Speaker 1: frustrated that any time, and this is like this new

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Speaker 1: guard of male horror directors. I feel like and and old.

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Speaker 1: I was even reminded of like the shining of like

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Speaker 1: I was going to bring this up using an elderly

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Speaker 1: woman's naked body for shock value. Is such attired. I

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Speaker 1: was so bummed to see that trope pop up here

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Speaker 1: because it's so like ari Astor just did it in Midsummer,

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Speaker 1: but it's been if there's such a precedent for it

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Speaker 1: that I just that pissed me off. While I found

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Speaker 1: the Satan goat to be very funny, by the time

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Speaker 1: that happened, I was just like, yeah, sure, like cool, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and what a sexy voice the goat had, I mean,

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Speaker 1: not a trace of goat? Okay. So I looked up

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Speaker 1: the actor who plays Black Philip when he once he

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Speaker 1: turns into the devil man. It's an actor by the

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Speaker 1: name of Daniel Malick, who is a Pakistani actor who

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Speaker 1: is first of all, extremely hot. Secondly, the optics of

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Speaker 1: like a brown Pakistani person playing the devil in your

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Speaker 1: movie full of white people? Perhaps did you ever see him? Though?

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Speaker 1: I feel like I didn't see, only see maybe like

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like a silhouette or just like a

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Speaker 1: glimpse of his face, nothing to to really be able

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Speaker 1: to distinguish it. So perhaps my point here isn't super valid,

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Speaker 1: but I guess if you're being generous, I still am

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Speaker 1: not sure. But he did have a perfect devil voice.

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Speaker 1: I was, so I didn't know what to expect of

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Speaker 1: the voice, and I did not leave disappointed. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: shall we get into the recap and go from there? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I also just want to apologize. Apparently there is a

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Speaker 1: world war happening in my skies right now. So I

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Speaker 1: hear like helicopter, a lot of helicopter activity outside above

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Speaker 1: me as well, so that we've been having that. We

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Speaker 1: just have been telling our listeners, like, listen, we live

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Speaker 1: in a police state, and yeah, it will happen. Yeah, um, okay,

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Speaker 1: So it is six hundreds. I think it's sixteen thirty.

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Speaker 1: Colonial New England, specifically Massachusetts, specifically Planmouts Plantation, although I

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Speaker 1: don't know if they ever say that in the movie,

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Speaker 1: they say the Plata Plantation. I think that that might

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Speaker 1: have been the only one at a time. Got it.

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Speaker 1: A man and his family are being banished from the plantation.

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Speaker 1: It's never made clear exactly why, but the idea is

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Speaker 1: that they are like too Christian. Yeah, they're like too

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Speaker 1: devout Christians. Were they wrong to say they were too Christian?

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Speaker 1: They're pretty Christians. They were really intense. They were like

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Speaker 1: not fucking around with being Calvinists. Yeah, it seems like

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Speaker 1: it was over some what seemed like a religious dispute

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Speaker 1: um that is not ever really specified. But my my

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Speaker 1: interpretation is like this family too devout, go away? Um,

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Speaker 1: so they do, which is crazy considering in my humble opinion,

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Speaker 1: when I think back on this time, I think everybody

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Speaker 1: was like this family, I know, right, I kind of

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Speaker 1: am curious of like what in a like in a

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Speaker 1: world that we know the white settlers were so extremely like,

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Speaker 1: what would constitute like this is the line for us?

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Speaker 1: This is too Christian? Like I didn't know that that

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Speaker 1: line existed. Yeah, shrug, who knows. But we meet the family.

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Speaker 1: The father is William from Game of Thrones. You're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's who from Game of Thrones of Thrones, I truly

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Speaker 1: don't know. The actor's name is Ralph innosent Inosen another

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Speaker 1: great voice, great voice, yes, very gravelly deep voice. He's

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Speaker 1: got his wife, his wife Katherine. She is played by

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Speaker 1: Kate Dickie, who was also in Game of Thrones. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, we get it. You're casting British. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we get it. You want to cast British women who

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Speaker 1: will breastfeed inappropriately? Yes? Oh god. That was the other

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Speaker 1: moment that I'm just like, male directors shouldn't be allowed

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Speaker 1: to make these kinds of visual metaphors. I am oh icky.

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Speaker 1: They have a teenage daughter, thomasin Thomas sin get it, Sin.

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Speaker 1: I I really enjoy this actresses work. Anya Taylor Joy

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Speaker 1: She's fun, she's fun and everything, and I think this

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Speaker 1: was her first movie. Yeah, I believe so. I feel

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Speaker 1: like every actor in this movie. Side note, great performances

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Speaker 1: all around despite the content, very good acting. Even because

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Speaker 1: it's We're always we always came, we historically come down

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Speaker 1: too hard on child actors. American ones were the worst. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but but the child actors in this, especially like the

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Speaker 1: kid who plays Caleb, like he held it down, that

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Speaker 1: that was. And they're talking about like Old English like Iambic,

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Speaker 1: Pentameter Shakespeare. I mean, this eight year old is possessed

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Speaker 1: in Old English and like kills, It's very impressive. There

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Speaker 1: there will be scenes that don't cut away for a while,

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Speaker 1: so these kids had to learn a lot of dialogue.

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Speaker 1: At once, and yeah, I was super impressed. So, um,

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Speaker 1: Thomason is our protagonist. Her brother Caleb is I think

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Speaker 1: I think he's supposed to be like twelve, although I

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Speaker 1: truly don't know how old children are said, that's probably wrong,

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Speaker 1: and he's definitely he's definitely older than eight. You're both

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Speaker 1: right to me, I would say like eleven, twelve, maybe thirteen,

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Speaker 1: even he's for sure a child. Then there are two

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Speaker 1: younger twins who they might be like seven or eight, um,

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Speaker 1: but also I don't know. And then there's an infant Samuel.

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Speaker 1: Having been banished, they traveled to the wilderness and set

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Speaker 1: up like a homestead on the edge of some remote woods. Um.

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Speaker 1: And one day Thomasin is playing peekaboo with the baby

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Speaker 1: and suddenly the baby disappears. I like that very quickly,

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Speaker 1: the word which becomes a verb, like you get witch.

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Speaker 1: He's witched. He was witched, Samuel was witched. You're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: because then we see a witch scurrying through the woods

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Speaker 1: with the baby. Then we see her cutting their like

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Speaker 1: it's implied that she cuts the baby open and then

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Speaker 1: like pulverizes it and then smears it's flesh and blood.

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Speaker 1: All over herself in some sort of like ritualistic sacrifice.

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Speaker 1: Why because I you know what, I looked it up,

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Speaker 1: they said back in the Jacobean era. I'm assuming a

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Speaker 1: favorite era, our favorite era. Who knows apparently that one

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Speaker 1: of the ways in which witches were able to gain

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Speaker 1: the power of flight is through a mixture of essentially

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Speaker 1: like ground down the fat of a baby, plus like

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Speaker 1: hemlock and like lions, main like all of the old

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Speaker 1: timey herbs that you can think of, like okay, like

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Speaker 1: grind them all together and rub them on their body,

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Speaker 1: and that is what makes a witch fly. Okay. So

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Speaker 1: like how at the end they're floating, that's because they

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Speaker 1: had herbs and babies. Yeah, they have that magical posh. Okay, incredible.

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Speaker 1: That's actually really helpful to know, because I was just like,

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Speaker 1: why does she want the baby? Yeah? She needed it's fat,

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Speaker 1: she needed, Okay, so that she needs it the baby ingredient. Great.

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Speaker 1: So then back home, the family mourns the loss of

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Speaker 1: the baby. Um Catherine especially is inconsolable, and they all

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Speaker 1: think he was probably snatched by a wolf. So the

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Speaker 1: crops that the family are growing are diseased. Um, so

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Speaker 1: William the father takes Caleb out into the woods to

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Speaker 1: gather food. Um they try to shoot a rabbit but

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Speaker 1: are unsuccessful. Their traps come up empty, and William explains

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Speaker 1: that he traded Catherine's silver cup so that he could

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Speaker 1: buy the trap. I think, and he tells Caleb to

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Speaker 1: keep this a secret. Then we meet the most important

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Speaker 1: character of the film, Black Philip, A goat a vaguely

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Speaker 1: c G. I'd goat. Oh really, I didn't notice any

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Speaker 1: c G. I okay, maybe I'm wrong, but I just

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Speaker 1: there were a few moments where I'm like, oh, post

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Speaker 1: got to Philip. I did read some trivia that the

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Speaker 1: actors said. Of all of the animals on set, the

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Speaker 1: horse was great, the chickens were great, the rabbit was

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Speaker 1: the most well behaved, but the Black Philip was a

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Speaker 1: real handful not cooperative. Well. Famously, this method, Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: was going. He was Daniel day Lewis and he's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna, of course, I'm gonna terrorize this set. I'm

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Speaker 1: Black Philip to be Black Philip. Wrestling scene was improvised.

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Speaker 1: I'm not joking. That's the nerdiest piece of trivia. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I'll drop off. God. Wow, that's scary. That's

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Speaker 1: how unruly he was. Black Philip, you little devil. That

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Speaker 1: makes it even better. So we mean we we mean

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Speaker 1: black Philip. And the two young twins, Jonas and Mercy,

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Speaker 1: are chasing him around, and then Mercies like their friends,

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Speaker 1: they say, he talks to us, he tells us things.

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Speaker 1: And then Mercy tells Thomason how she has seen a

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Speaker 1: witch of the woods, and um, it was a witch

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Speaker 1: who took the baby and Thomason to tease and scare.

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Speaker 1: Mercy is like, well, I'm the witch. And then that

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Speaker 1: night Katherine the mother, she's like, oh, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: something is weird and unnatural. And and Thomason, you stole

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Speaker 1: my silver cup, didn't you? And she's like, no, I didn't.

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Speaker 1: And then William and Caleb don't speak up about this.

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Speaker 1: They don't they let Catherine think that Thomason stole the cup. Oh. Also,

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Speaker 1: Thomason goes into the barn that night to tend to

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Speaker 1: the goats, and she sees the same rabbit from the woods,

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Speaker 1: and we're like, is the rabbit the witch? Like she

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Speaker 1: take the form of this rabbit. I think that's what's implied.

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Speaker 1: So then thomasin overhears her mother talking about how Thomasin

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Speaker 1: should be sent off to serve another family. Basically, I

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Speaker 1: think to be like married off is what the implication

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Speaker 1: is here, because they're starting to starve and she would

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Speaker 1: be one less mouth to feed and not wanting this

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Speaker 1: to happen. Thomasin and Caleb go into the woods to

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Speaker 1: find food, but they get separated because the witch rabbit

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Speaker 1: spooks the horse. And then in the woods Caleb comes

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Speaker 1: upon the witch's cottage and the witch comes out, only

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Speaker 1: this time she is younger and her cleavage is present,

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Speaker 1: or she was him and by kissing him on the

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Speaker 1: mouth did that need to be shown? That did not?

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Speaker 1: That was a real scene where a child gets kissed

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Speaker 1: on the mouth passionately by an adult by an adult woman.

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Speaker 1: And if you truly, if you're Robert Inger's and you're

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Speaker 1: like this needs to happen, then like there are so

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Speaker 1: many ways to show that without it having to happen. Also, throughout,

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Speaker 1: Caleb is like checking out his sister, like checking out

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Speaker 1: Thomasin and kind of like feeling shy around her. There's

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Speaker 1: this weird vibe where he's like curious, right, which is

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Speaker 1: later weaponized against thomasin by her mother by saying like,

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Speaker 1: why are you making your brother horny? And she's like,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't doing anything, poor Thomason this whole movie. She's

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Speaker 1: just like I'm literally just standing here and they're just like,

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Speaker 1: you're the devil. I do think that that is when

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Speaker 1: when I was reading about the movie and reading feminist

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Speaker 1: critiques or quote unquote feminist critiques that they were that

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Speaker 1: a lot of them said, yes, this is true to

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Speaker 1: how the witch trials were presented at the time, that

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Speaker 1: like young women were seen as like very very demonized

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Speaker 1: just in general, like you just all you just had

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Speaker 1: to be mothered in some way. It could be the

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Speaker 1: the crops sucked or whatever. You you're an unmarried woman

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Speaker 1: older than the age of sixteen or whatever, and you're

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Speaker 1: just a witch and joking aside. I mean, it is

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Speaker 1: like it's especially unfortunate to see her mother being the

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Speaker 1: one to voice this criticism. But like being blamed for

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Speaker 1: a man like looking at you is like a thing

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Speaker 1: that happens constantly, and it's doubly hurtful when another woman

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Speaker 1: is the one doing the blaming for it. It is

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Speaker 1: weird how the position of the father and the mother

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Speaker 1: in terms of the way that they treat Thomasin are

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Speaker 1: kind of reversed natural, like like, it's to me, it's

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Speaker 1: unnatural that the mother would not she would not understand

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Speaker 1: and be like, wow, she must be a little witch,

404
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: you know, and the father is like protective of Thomasin.

405
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Speaker 1: That doesn't make any fucking sense that the dad is

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Speaker 1: clearly the witch mongerer and the mom would be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I went through this too when I was sixteen. They

408
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Speaker 1: all thought I was a witch too. Yeah right, yeah,

409
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Speaker 1: there's I was kind of I went back and forth

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Speaker 1: on how I felt about that, and again it's just

411
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Speaker 1: like I just wasn't really able to tell what the

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Speaker 1: author was trying to say, and then sort of fell

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Speaker 1: on like I think that he just kind of like

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Speaker 1: wasn't there. I mean, he said it himself. He wasn't

415
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Speaker 1: thinking about it from a feminist perspective, So some stuff

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Speaker 1: kind of gets a little garbled, which is a bummle

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Speaker 1: because I feel like if it had been if it

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Speaker 1: had been focused a little, or if he had had

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Speaker 1: a woman look at the script, we could have gotten

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Speaker 1: a little I have a whole spiel on this that

421
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: I'll get to later, but yeah, it's it's muddled to

422
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: say the least. Um So, So Caleb is missing, the

423
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: family is frantic, but he appears again outside the house.

424
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: He's very ill, uh, and then the family is trying

425
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: to figure out what to do. Things seem hopeless. He's

426
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: not recovering anyway. And then Caleb takes a turn in

427
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: which he barfs up an apple and then dies. And

428
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: then everyone's like, thomasin you did this to him because

429
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: you're a of a vitch and she's like, no, I'm not.

430
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: Maybe Mercy and Jonas are the witches. They're the ones

431
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: always talking to Black Philip, and the Devil appears as

432
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: a goat often, so I don't know, maybe look at them, which, honestly,

433
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: when she said that, at first, I was like, all right,

434
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: that's a stretch, not knowing that she was urect so

435
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: I thought that there was no way. I was just like, oh, okay,

436
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: Like Thomason is in a difficult position and she's trying

437
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: to be like, where can I deflect this blame so

438
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: people will leave me alone? But nope, it the devil

439
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: is the goat And she was right, yes, but I

440
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: mean I also feel like imagery of the devil, at

441
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: least in like pop culture is often to a metal concert,

442
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: like you know, there's like the horns and the hoofs

443
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. It just feels it just feels

444
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: weird hearing in Old English. I guess I would choose

445
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: just like could be the goat, like it'd be it'd

446
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: be Black Philip. But she's right, um So, not knowing

447
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: who to trust, William locks up Thomas and Mercy and

448
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: Jonas and Black Philip in the barn for the night.

449
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: And then the old witch flies in because she knows

450
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: how to fly now because of the potion that she made,

451
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: and she drinks the blood milk from another goat, not

452
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: Black Philip. So the next morning, Um William comes out

453
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,239
Speaker 1: and the barn has been torn open, mutilated bodies of

454
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: the goats are lying around. The twins have disappeared, and

455
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: I think, don't show up again in the story. And

456
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: then suddenly Black Philip impales William with his horn. It's

457
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: a big metaphor. He falls beneath the wood that he

458
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: was chopping, and he collapsed underneath his own failure as

459
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: a patriarch when he was wearing his like Jesus E

460
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 1: robe chopping the wood in a like, yeah, has his

461
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: canvas skirt. He's like, yeah, he's like wearing like a

462
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: canvas fit and he's got like his light six pack

463
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: and he kind of like, I mean he looked good. Okay,

464
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: I'm hetero and I was into it. Name the Thrones's

465
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: dad gets shirtless early and I was like, oh, who

466
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: is he? Game of sounds again. Oh, I couldn't tell you.

467
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you the name of a Game of

468
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: Thrones character, but I but he is, um, he's definitely

469
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: he was on the show. I recognized his voice, not

470
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: his face. So maybe he wore a lot of makeup

471
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: on the show. I don't know, Maybe he was. I

472
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: couldn't tell you one thing that happened on that show,

473
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: but I did see every episode, same exact same um. So,

474
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: then William is dying and Catherine comes out and she's like, wow, Thomason,

475
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: really seems like you killed all of my children and

476
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: my husband and that you are a witch. So Catherine

477
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: tries to strangle Thompson, but she fights back and ends

478
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: up killing her mom, and then she's like, well, my

479
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: whole family is dead. Now what do I do. We Also,

480
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: we don't see the twins die, but we're like, well

481
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: safe to assume, right, yeah, or they've gone off and

482
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: done more of Black Phillips bidding somewhere else scarious because

483
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: I was like, they were Black Phillip's only friends and

484
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: it would be rude of him to kill them. They

485
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,959
Speaker 1: were so nice to Black Philip the whole time. They

486
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: were singing songs about him constantly. They're making fans art

487
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: right and last. But anyway, so Thomason goes to Black

488
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: Philip and she's like, hey, any chance you're the devil

489
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: and he's like, actually, high, yes, step into my office,

490
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: please sign my book, Please follow me on Twitter, and

491
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: I'll give you whatever you want. Then she goes into

492
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: the woods and joins a coven of witches and they

493
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: all start levitating off the ground and she seems really

494
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: really happy. Now elated elated, yes, which is another like

495
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,719
Speaker 1: there's an echo of I know that this movie comes up,

496
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: but I hadn't seen this, and I was like, this

497
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: reminds me of the end of Midsummer Oh, very similar,

498
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: like everyone's dead and now I can finally smile and

499
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: now I'm with my new friends hereditary. It's like, yeah,

500
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: I mean, but I guess that that is more of

501
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: an Ariaster criticism because both those movies came out after this. Yes,

502
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we'll come right

503
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: back to discuss and we're back. So the main thing

504
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: for me for this movie is so like like many

505
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: horror movies, including several that we have discussed on the podcast,

506
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 1: this is a movie, it feels like to me where

507
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: there is a pretty clear feminist reading of it, and

508
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: there's also any number of readings of it that are

509
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: not so much because on one hand, like you, it's

510
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: a movie about a young woman who is accused by

511
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: her family of being a witch because they're starving and

512
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: their farm isn't yielding crops, so they're blaming her. They're

513
00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: like using her as a scapegoat. Goat, scapegoat. Hello, Black Philip,

514
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: he is with us now. But you know they're just

515
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: they're accusing her of like being a wedge and placing

516
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: a curse on them, And you know, this accusation isn't fair.

517
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: It mirrors the unfair way in which women were treated

518
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: during this time period and in the present time. And

519
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,959
Speaker 1: I do really appreciate that the movie from moment one

520
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: makes it clear to the audience that there is like

521
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: it's never a like suspicion of like is Thomas and

522
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: a which we know from the first second that she

523
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: isn't and that you have like this level of anxiety

524
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: of like wanting to protect her because you know that

525
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: she truly didn't do anything, which is nice. I feel

526
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: like not every movie would lend her that pretty I

527
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: feel like it would maybe be more ambiguous, right um.

528
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: And then part of this part of these like accusations

529
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: that are hurled against her, we already hinted at this,

530
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: but like it's that she's going through the natural process

531
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: of physically maturing and like quote becoming a woman with boobs,

532
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: and that makes her extra suspicious in the eyes of

533
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: her family and society. And like the fact that she

534
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be sold off to some other family

535
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: like a piece of property also makes her seem et witch,

536
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 1: right what a b bitch? This vivid sacrifice your life

537
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: for the starving family, right um? And then also you

538
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: know the end where she like her becoming a witch

539
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: could be seen as like her becoming empowered and independent

540
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: and having her own agency and autonomy, and she joins

541
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: a coven of other women and you know, in that

542
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: way I see the feminist read. However, I feel like

543
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: this message in the movie would be way more effective

544
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: if there weren't also, like quote, real witches in the

545
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: story who are evil, scary baby snatching murderers, because like,

546
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, just like to me, it sends a

547
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: conflicting message of like, oh see how women were accused

548
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 1: of being witches for no reason, and doesn't that suck anyway?

549
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: Which is are real and some women are witches and

550
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 1: they've made a pact with the devil and they will

551
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: murder your whole family for no reason. I had a

552
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: similar thought. I thought, and multiple and I mean I

553
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: I did not get to the point where I'm like,

554
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: and here's a rework of the movie that would have

555
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: worked better for me, But I did like at some

556
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: point in the movie, I'm like, I feel like this

557
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: would be an even more anxiety inducing movie if witches

558
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: don't exist, not yet, and things keep happening and they

559
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: keep being blamed on people like I feel like it

560
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: is almost a weird narrative crutch for which is to

561
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: be real? Does that like there's a movie, there's a

562
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: movie in there where that doesn't need to be there,

563
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 1: and I feel like they're at the beginning. It says

564
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: like the ve Vich like an American. They use the

565
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: word folk tale as the subtitle, and I feel like

566
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: Robert Egger's really leans on that to get away with

567
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: some story stuff or like not fully explore stuff, because

568
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: he's like, well, they're based on folk tales, and folk

569
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: tales were very biased and they don't actually make a

570
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: lot of sense, and so I was just kind of

571
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: doing that and it's like, well, or don't, like, yeah,

572
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 1: I feel like the scarier choice to me is to

573
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: lean into how extreme these settlers really were at this time,

574
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: like so terrifying. They're super religious. They are religious to

575
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: the point that they will invent the devil in anything

576
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: that is mothered, and they're terrified of this land. They

577
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: don't know how to manage it. They're like tripping balls

578
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: on like fungus that's growing on their corn, which I

579
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 1: read as a criticism or something that Eggers actually puts

580
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 1: in the film. It's like apparently in one of the

581
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: first shots of the corn field, you can see a

582
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 1: fungus growing on the corn, and it's like, at this time,

583
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,720
Speaker 1: this was like a popular thing that used to happen.

584
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 1: They couldn't manage the fungus that would grow in their corner,

585
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: and it would make them hallucinate. It would give them

586
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: the illusion of having possession or like hearing voices and

587
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 1: ship I didn't realize that that should have been more clear,

588
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: and then like, and then you wouldn't have needed the

589
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: wit I mean, is there. I was also trying to

590
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: figure out, like, is there a plausible reading of this

591
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: movie where you're like the witches were being hallucinated? But

592
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, I, well, it's so witch heavy. I

593
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I truly feel like

594
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 1: a better version of this story that I would be

595
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: able to latch more onto from, just from a feminist perspective,

596
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: is if which is, we're not actually real the paranoia

597
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: around witches and witchcraft. Sure that could have been real

598
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: because that fear of witchcraft was historically accurate, and that

599
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: fear could have been heightened by the religious zealotry of

600
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: this family. Like that all makes sense to me, especially

601
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: in this specific era when a ton of people were

602
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 1: afraid of the idea of which is like, they didn't

603
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: they didn't understand science, so they thought if you were

604
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: sick or if you had a mental illness, like they

605
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: thought you were being cursed by a witch or or

606
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,760
Speaker 1: possessed by the devil. Like it's all of their misunderstandings

607
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: of everything that would lead them to this, this fear

608
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: that makes them become violent and kill each other. Like,

609
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: to me, that's a more intriguing story if them being

610
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: uncompromising religious fanatics leads to their demise and not actual

611
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: like witches. So I had no idea that Jenna, I

612
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 1: didn't realize that he like, he puts the fungus in

613
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: front of you, so he clearly has done his homework

614
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: and knows it exists, So then why not right to that?

615
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: That is so I feel like that is like a

616
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 1: way scarier movie to me than like to Jump scares

617
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: that are that are like rabbit based, right, And then

618
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: I'm like and then I'm like, the witch is a

619
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: symbol for what I don't know. That's sort of what

620
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: the Lighthouse is about, where it's these two people who

621
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 1: are in isolation together and they are just like slowly

622
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: driven mad because of the isolation. But what I mean,

623
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: what I did feel like this movie did well. This

624
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: movie did some things well for me and then other things.

625
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,919
Speaker 1: I was like I couldn't couldn't make heads or tails

626
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: of it, but I did like how clear it was made,

627
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: and like how authentic it felt in story that it

628
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 1: was like their own religion and was setting them up

629
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: to tear each other apart, and it was setting them

630
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: up to not be able to process their own failures.

631
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: It was setting them up to be completely unwilling to

632
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: process their own grief and like they are so like

633
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 1: set on this really deeply restrictive, sexist, emotionally withholding way

634
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: of life that it's like if you isolate those people,

635
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: how on earth are they going to survive? Like, of

636
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: course they tear each other apart, and they're on drugs.

637
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: I guess they're just being poisoned every day by themselves. Yeah,

638
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: And I really liked that. Um the establishing shot we

639
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 1: get with thomasin where she is like doing I'm sure

640
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: an authentic prayer. It seems like Robert Eggers really did

641
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: go to the library. It's all we talked about on

642
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: the press tour. Uh. But she she does this like

643
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: very specific, deeply self hating prayer that is like I

644
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,439
Speaker 1: am bad, I am. And then I did a little

645
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 1: bit of research brag on Calvinism specifically because I was

646
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 1: just like, I didn't is it just like the X

647
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 1: Games of Christianity? And it kind of is, oh, yeah, baby,

648
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: give us the deeds? What the hell is Calvinism? So

649
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: Calvinism is not just extreme Christianity. And I feel like

650
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: once I knew this, it kind of put some of

651
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: the talks that especially William, who I feel like is

652
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: the most religious lot of everybody. Um. So Calvinism says that, um,

653
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 1: there are a small number of saints who are marked

654
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: out for heaven and everyone else is condemned to how

655
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: and people who are living have no way of distinguishing

656
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: the first group from the second. So no wonder Caleb

657
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: is so stressed out all the time about the baby. Yeah,

658
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 1: and it's like, I guess getting baptized increases your answers

659
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: of going to heaven, but there's no guarantees. It's a

660
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: very Unfit's the least forgiving version of Christianity I've ever

661
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: heard of. It's yeah, all humans are born sinners, but

662
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 1: it's just it's like very elite heaven tier and then

663
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: like of people go to Hell, And so what's anyone's

664
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 1: incentive to like be a good person while they were alive.

665
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: Then according to this religion, you gotta get God to

666
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: your baby. I don't like, but it's like that that.

667
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: Knowing a little more about Calvinism specifically, I'm like, this

668
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 1: family is fucked like and it's so it is devastating

669
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: at the beginning of like, Caleb is so stressed out

670
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: about whether his baby brother is in heaven or hell,

671
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: and then his dad is just kind of doing some

672
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: religious deflection and saying God's plan, God's plan, which is

673
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: sometimes what religious people say when they don't know what

674
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: to tell you. That I a lot of that in

675
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: in my childhood. Uh, they're like, I d like it's

676
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: it's just what Christian people say when they can't say,

677
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: like I d K my bff Jill, Like they're just

678
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: like that. But it also the way it's framed to

679
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: Caleb implies that he has to like they're like, and

680
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: we're never speaking of this again. Your baby brother never existed,

681
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 1: which is like, that's, oh my god, what a traumatic

682
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: thing to to learn as a child who's somewhere between

683
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: the ages of eight to old enough to wake up

684
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: at the crack of dawn and go hunting with your father, right,

685
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: So that's Calvinism, and yeah, Calvinism is um the scariest

686
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: Christianity I've heard, I mean, And to just to zoom

687
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: out a little bit, like I look at this film

688
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I actually really love films that like

689
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: depict the harshness and the rawness of early America. I

690
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 1: also love like films about that, like depict the harshness

691
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: and rawness of Renaissance England and like, you know, like

692
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: how people actually lived. I find it fascinating, and I

693
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: think that I've agreed that I found it so gross

694
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 1: and beautiful um in that way. But to like look

695
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: at it historically, to think about, like, even in this

696
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 1: dramatized representation, which I'm sure definitely has some truth and reality,

697
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: and like what it was actually like these are like

698
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: the foundations of white America, Like this is our past,

699
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: and this is these are the people that were like

700
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 1: quote unquote first the first whites. Then you can fucking

701
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: still like a lot of those vibes still radiating in

702
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: this country. That actually might be the most unsettling aspect

703
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: of this horror movie to me, that like this is

704
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: the type of people on which like white America was

705
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: built like the colonists, the colonize this is who these

706
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: people were, and how again they're like their own religious

707
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: Zelo Tree was like was their demise and this is

708
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: what you know America as we know it today was

709
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 1: built upon. And that is very unsettling. Yeah. Um, I

710
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: tried to do a little more research into because I

711
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: was like, okay, sixteen thirties. So at this point, the

712
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: colonists have been in Massachusetts for about ten years, and

713
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: that it's even referenced in story a little bit because

714
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 1: Thomasin and Catherine both mentioned that they're very homesick and

715
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 1: that they had this previous life in England. So it's like, Okay,

716
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 1: Thomason was I think maybe the other kids were born, um,

717
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: stay outside, but Thomason was like born in England and

718
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: and you know, didn't the whole trip and all this,

719
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: and so I was looking up, Okay, what was I mean,

720
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: you know, what's going on in Plymouth Plantation is bad,

721
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: but the first ten years of colonists in Massachusetts on

722
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: Plymouth Plantation is so fucking brutal, Like it is just

723
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: some of the most I don't even want to like

724
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: repeat it all here, but it it is some of

725
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: the most disgusting slices of history that you'll you'll ever

726
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: come across, and so this family is coming off of

727
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: almost definitely, William was actively participating in a genocide a

728
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: few years before this, and so which is not you know,

729
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: is very sidestepped in the movie. I feel that like

730
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: that this family were full and as as sympathetic as

731
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: they can come across. They are full participants in the

732
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: colonialist lifestyle, and and apparently they go too hard in

733
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: the lifestyle there. There's also it's like almost certainly all

734
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 1: of their friends have died, Like there's just the first

735
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: ten years of colonial history is so it's all genocide

736
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: and it's starvation and it's just blowing it. Yeah, just

737
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: completely not a single good thing happened. But it seems

738
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: like a joyless existence. It doesn't surprise me that by

739
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: the end, when when Thomason is like floating in the air,

740
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I guess same, Like seems liberating. Whatever

741
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: was happening back there sucked, right, And like Jamie you

742
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 1: mentioned that Catherine especially there's a line where she's like,

743
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: I wish I was home in England and it's like, well, then,

744
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: I mean I guess you move like you colonize this

745
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: new place because you thought you'd have a better life.

746
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: But um, look how wrong you were. Comma idiot um.

747
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: But like, well, the people that came across, we're all

748
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: we're ousted from England for their zealotry right well speak

749
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: King of the colonizers and the genocide that they were

750
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 1: committing against indigenous people. There are a few references to

751
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: native people. And you see him, you see him one time,

752
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 1: you see a few beginning a whole. One time, William

753
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: says that he traded with someone named Indian Tom for

754
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: the traps. And then when Caleb shows back up at

755
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: the house and he's sick and quote possessed, Catherine is

756
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 1: like talking to William and she's like, do you remember

757
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: some family's son that first winter? He was tormented of

758
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: Indian magic. So they are blaming the native people, who

759
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: they are actively committing a genocide against, for having some

760
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: kind of dark magic that is plaguing their white children. Yeah,

761
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: and that's a that's a themed that persists until about

762
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five when the Religious Freedom Acts passed in

763
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 1: the United Yeah. Um, depressing facts. Truly. Both hated the

764
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: quote unquote magic of the natives at the same time

765
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: stealing it, right, so when using it, I mean it's

766
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: it's a tragic thing. I think. Like also, like just

767
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: this the the savagery, the narrative of savagery also persists

768
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: and and was used. Um it's so weird, Like I

769
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: don't really understand. I can't imagine. The first of all,

770
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: genociding any one is must be very hard, Like it

771
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 1: must actually be so traumatic to do that to a

772
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: people who actually we're helping you in the beginning, right

773
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: and like teaching you their ways, and to be to

774
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,879
Speaker 1: turn around and be like yeah, actually like just gonna

775
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: take you out makes me question there their capacity for

776
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: love and compassion. I just don't. I wonder where that

777
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,839
Speaker 1: comes from. And it's got to come from that religious ship.

778
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: I think it is rooted in that, like very I

779
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: mean it's rooted in white supremacy. But yes, but a

780
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: lot so much of that is contained within this religion

781
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: that they're so rooted in of of just like even

782
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: like the Calvinist log line is like there's only a

783
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 1: few spots in heaven, so good luck, and like this

784
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 1: chosen one narrative that they've like really lived by, and

785
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: I will say that like indigenous people on this land

786
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: in North America specifically, but this is true for probably

787
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: a lot of Indigenous people who have been colonized by Christianity,

788
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: that kind of religious oppression has persisted as well, and

789
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 1: is like largely been used as a like force of

790
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: colonization and a force of cultural genocide against those people.

791
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: So like, I see like the adherence to like this extreme.

792
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: Like I I feel like I look at um the

793
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:35,439
Speaker 1: way that Americans vilify Islam and Muslim people, and I'm like, man,

794
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: I just watch the the vich guys. We're we're that

795
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 1: like that is that is? That is like come on,

796
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: just all the missionaries that Christians go on to more

797
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: or less force their religion onto other people. Yeah, it is.

798
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: It's oppression. Yeah, it's just like that core idea that

799
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: like how I'm a random person and I believe that

800
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: what I am bringing you is surely better than whatever

801
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: was here. And we all can see that people before

802
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: they came, we were flying around with baby fat on

803
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 1: our bodies. It was so much better. You were thriving.

804
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: This is another I think that like I wasn't able

805
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: to find a quote of Robert Egger's being asked about

806
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:38,320
Speaker 1: the kind of absence of any Indigenous person from this narrative.

807
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: And granted it's this family is very isolated by themselves,

808
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: but what I feel like it's bizarre to not contextualize

809
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: is why is the area they're living in so extremely

810
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 1: isolated because a genocide took place, and like the there's

811
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 1: not a lot of context given as to why they're

812
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: living in a ghost town and what and what was

813
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: here before the plantation, Like before they left the plantation.

814
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: They're just a day away from the plantation, and so

815
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 1: there's just I don't know, very little to contextualize their

816
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: surroundings or really their history in this area at all,

817
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: even though we know that they would have been there

818
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: for about ten years at this point. Yeah, you can

819
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 1: see that the way the plantation is they have the

820
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: like big gates and it's like enclosed. It's like a

821
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: gated community, and that was one to keep a barrier

822
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,959
Speaker 1: between them and the indigenous people of the time, which

823
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: is you know, but there's also within the barrier you

824
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: see in this film that like there are natives like

825
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: mingling amongst them, trading, like there's so much it's truly

826
00:55:54,960 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 1: like such an intense clash of cultures happening because is

827
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: seen by white people as like uncivilized savagery. I think

828
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 1: even in our modern minds, we have to like really

829
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: train ourselves to look at that time and we and

830
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: and you know, fuck American cinema and television for like

831
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,879
Speaker 1: poisoning us with this understanding. But like we don't really

832
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: see early Indigenous Americans as civilized when in fact, there

833
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: were extremely like highly coordinated centuries old trade routes and

834
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 1: languages being exchanged, and like you know, materials being exchanged,

835
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:43,240
Speaker 1: like and and exchanges happening with settlers. Like it wasn't

836
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 1: all just like we came and we wiped them out,

837
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: Like there was actual collaboration happening also, and like deep

838
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 1: partnership happening because they had to. They would not have

839
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: survived if it weren't for the indigenous people. They wouldn't

840
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:01,879
Speaker 1: have been able to do anything. They had no idea

841
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 1: what they were doing. Well. And when William you know,

842
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 1: and his family strike out on their own to try

843
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 1: to yield crops, he can't do it. He can't trap.

844
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: He has no idea how to trap animals. He has

845
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: no idea how to hunt animals like he can't. He

846
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: just has no survival skills. Yeah. I think it was

847
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: kind of I mean, irresponsible and just bizarre to me

848
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: in such a pretty well researched film to just not

849
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 1: address anything or anyone, Like there's just a lot that

850
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: is just left out, and then you're like, the goat

851
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: is haunted, let's go. Like to me, I'm just so

852
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: used to it. I just I never ever expect that

853
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: anybody's going to tell a story about indigenous in a

854
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:56,440
Speaker 1: story about settler colonialism from an indigenous, even mentioning indigenous people.

855
00:57:56,680 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 1: It's never it never happens, and when it does, it's

856
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 1: done poorly. So actually, I'm kind of okay with him

857
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: not having touched that aspect. I don't think that he

858
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: would have managed it. Well, oh that's true. No, especially

859
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: because like in most horror movies where there is any

860
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: mention of indigenous people, it's like, oops, we built our

861
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:23,919
Speaker 1: house on an on a burial ground and now it's haunted. Yeah,

862
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: not good. A lot of I b g s flowing

863
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: around this this uh entire land, and they're so spooky.

864
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 1: Let's take another quick break and I will come right

865
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: back for more discussion. And we're back. Um. I wanted

866
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 1: to kind of jump off of we were talking a

867
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 1: little bit about Williams inability to grow corn Um and Jenny.

868
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 1: You reference this earlier, and I his character, I is

869
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 1: all over the place. I think I generally like where

870
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: it went, but I also sometimes when I was feeling

871
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: empathy for him, I was just like, what, I feel

872
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 1: like this should be with someone else? Uh? There what

873
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 1: I think I mean? Because he is trying to be

874
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: the perfect Calvinist, right, he is super He loves can Calvin.

875
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 1: He loves Calvin. I don't did they worship Calvin? I

876
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: don't know, but there he loves Calvin so much, and

877
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: he's but he's very like the religious enforcer of the family,

878
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: and if anyone is having a crisis of faith, he's like,

879
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 1: get your ship together, while also constantly lying to his family.

880
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 1: Right from the jump, he lies and asks his son

881
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 1: to be complicit in that lie, so he is disingenuous

882
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 1: towards Calvin, let's say. Um. Later, he then takes accountability

883
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 1: for this lie, which I wasn't expecting him to do.

884
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: I thought he was just gonna let Thomason take the

885
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 1: falls episode. Now I'm like Okay, he admitted he made

886
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 1: a mistake. Let's see where this goes. And the moment

887
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 1: that I thought was really effective was when he and

888
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: Thomason are arguing, and this is like a really difficult

889
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: scene to watch, but he is like, I think, really

890
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: trying to hold it together. He wants to believe Thomasin

891
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: more than her mother does, which I agree, Jannah felt

892
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: like kind of strange, like a strange choice not to

893
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: say that. There isn't like a mother that is so

894
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 1: attached and so and she's like racked with grief and

895
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot going on, um, and she's just shrewman,

896
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 1: probably just straight shrewman this whole time, high on mushrooms

897
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 1: and her children are just dropping like flies, and she's

898
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 1: breastfeeding a crow at one point, like she's having a

899
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 1: hard week. And so like, yeah, a lot of really

900
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 1: piles on to this family in a really short amount

901
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 1: of time together. They're having the worst week ever. Uh.

902
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: But William does try like he believes Thomasin pretty far

903
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 1: into the movie and doesn't believe that she has a witch.

904
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 1: But the second that she says correctly that he is

905
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: mediocre and that he is not able to provide for

906
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: the family the way they need. Then he snaps and

907
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: basically dooms the entire family. And I thought that was

908
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 1: like a really effective story choice of like being the

909
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: moral superior until you criticize me, and then I'm going

910
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 1: to kill you, like totally yeah. Yeah. The second she

911
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: challenges him, he's like, the devil is in your tongue,

912
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: you bitch. He calls her a bitch and then he

913
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 1: throws her on the ground. Should have called her of

914
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 1: a bitch um. And then yeah, accuses the devil of

915
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 1: like being inside her and giving her these thoughts and

916
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: these words, which is kind of like a fun male

917
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 1: that not funny, it's horrible, but like it is like

918
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 1: a very it is very male of him to me

919
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 1: to be like, you're not a witch unless you say

920
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 1: I'm bad at something, and then you must be possessed

921
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: by the devil. I mean, it's fragile male ego at

922
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: its like peak here. So I thought that that was

923
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:23,680
Speaker 1: pretty effective. I agree, And then like where the yeah,

924
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 1: where the story goes from there is that he's immediately

925
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: murdered by black Philip. So maybe, okay, let me re

926
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 1: look at this, let me free reframe this story for

927
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: a second, what if like black Philip is like rooting

928
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 1: for thomasin this whole time, and he's like slowly getting

929
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 1: rid of the rest of this like scary family of

930
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 1: hers who are like accusing her and manipulating her and

931
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:55,919
Speaker 1: stuff and ugly, yeah, like ancestual ogling. And then he's

932
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: so he's rooting for the baby. He did take the baby,

933
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 1: but he that was kind of a decision. He needed

934
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: his his friend in the woods to find it was.

935
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: The baby served a very important purpose in the story.

936
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, what if he's like looking out for Thomason.

937
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 1: And then his whole plan, his master plan was to

938
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: be like, yes, come with me. I'll I see how

939
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: oppressed you are in this family. I have such a

940
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 1: better life to show you. Here. I've got this group

941
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 1: of women were all hanging out. I'll give you whatever

942
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: you want. That I actually I sort of like that.

943
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 1: I guess that was like, so, okay, I'm very curious

944
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: at how you both read the ending, because I watched

945
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 1: the movie and then I had to go on a

946
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 1: walk and then and then when I got back, I

947
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 1: was like, I think I but I was also maybe

948
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: this is a reach. But my read of the end

949
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 1: of the movie was that like, Thomason has been living

950
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 1: in this world that is so deeply restrictive, and she

951
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 1: has been like because of what we know about how

952
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: you know, any woman who is mothered in any way

953
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 1: is going to be accused of being a witch in

954
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 1: this culture. That like giving herself over to Satan is

955
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 1: more liberating than continuing to live with this in this

956
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 1: like deeply restrictive religion, and so like why not why

957
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 1: not Satan? At least there's less rules. They already think

958
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: I'm of a bitch, might as well become of a bitch.

959
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: I think that that's kind of like a through line

960
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 1: also with the Ariaster stuff. It's like like the scariest

961
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:39,960
Speaker 1: thing is that she actually just becomes one and like

962
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 1: really just rejects that the restriction and just goes and

963
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:49,520
Speaker 1: becomes a fucked up, which you know, Yeah, My problem

964
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 1: with that is why does that have to be depicted

965
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 1: as an evil thing? Yes? Why does it have to

966
01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 1: be devili Like the devil has nothing to do with that.

967
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 1: It can be completely like I just went to live

968
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 1: with a coven of other broads man, this goat went

969
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 1: pog on my fucking family, and I just there's nothing

970
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 1: left here for me except for some roomed up corn.

971
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 1: Let me go live with these the only other humans

972
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 1: that I've seen, these naked old ladies who seem to

973
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 1: be having a good time summer. Yeah, that's my whole

974
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 1: thing with this movie. Another reason that I don't think

975
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:31,440
Speaker 1: I don't find the end of the movie to be

976
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 1: a moment of empowerment for Thomason is that like any

977
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:40,320
Speaker 1: agency or power that she does have that she gets

978
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:42,840
Speaker 1: at the very end of the movie is like bestowed

979
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 1: upon her from a man, like the Devil, a devil man. Yeah,

980
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 1: I wonder, I always wonder. I'm like, I get the

981
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 1: Devil is I guess, I mean, in this movie certainly gendered.

982
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 1: I think the devil is always I mean there's like

983
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,120
Speaker 1: she devil, you hear the expression she devil. But like

984
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 1: I think in like Christian lore, the devil is always

985
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 1: perceived as a man, or like with he him pronounce

986
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 1: for sure, right, I need to Yeah that I I agree.

987
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 1: I just wonder if there are you know, different version.

988
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many versions of the devil, and

989
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 1: I wonder if there is a genderless devil, I mean,

990
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 1: would really clear up some issues here. I think and

991
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 1: I was not raised Christians, so I can't not say

992
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 1: for sure, but thank you I was. The devil is

993
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:42,120
Speaker 1: gendered as a male in Christianity and certainly in Calvinism.

994
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 1: Calvin shout out Calvin, Calvin. Calvin, Yeah, loves when men

995
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: have power. So this is a male devil. So the

996
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: point is like she got her powers from a male figure,

997
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:59,200
Speaker 1: and so did We can assume all of those other

998
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 1: women at the end, Um, they got her their powers

999
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 1: from him as well. So to me, they're living, they're

1000
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 1: still living in a patriarchal structure like doing a man's

1001
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 1: bidding or this, you know, male figures bidding. So Thomasin

1002
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 1: basically goes from one like patriarch to another at the end.

1003
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 1: At least it's not a lateral move at least it's

1004
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:23,920
Speaker 1: like the patriarchy. But now you can fly. It is

1005
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 1: an upgrade. Yes, yes, yeah, I I hope that she

1006
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:31,960
Speaker 1: um doesn't remain in the Devil's employ too long. I

1007
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 1: know and heard bad things. It's it usually does not

1008
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 1: end well. Um, Yeah, we don't know what happens after

1009
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:45,240
Speaker 1: she starts floating. Maybe who knows, Maybe the devil is

1010
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 1: a really you know, just and kind devil is literally

1011
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 1: a socialist, and I feel like, I don't know why

1012
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 1: I have a great healthcare that doesn't make sense, but

1013
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: the Devil wants to defund the police. Yeah, exactly the Devil.

1014
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like in in the time, the

1015
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 1: Devil was demonized, but actually he had some pretty good ideas.

1016
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:15,040
Speaker 1: Oh what makes you think revisionist history anyone? No one

1017
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,639
Speaker 1: wants to see that movie anyway, So I'm well, too

1018
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 1: bad because I'm writing it right now. Um, but you know,

1019
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: I totally agree with you. She's going from the i

1020
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 1: mean multiple patriarchal structure. She's she's trapped inside of her family,

1021
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 1: she's trapped inside of religion, and then she just kind

1022
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:37,920
Speaker 1: of um upgrades to like patriarchy with superpowers. Yeah. The

1023
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:41,160
Speaker 1: scene at the end with Thomason joining the coven of

1024
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:45,680
Speaker 1: other witches, there's kind of a similar scene in a

1025
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 1: very different movie, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, where

1026
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:53,760
Speaker 1: like it's these rural French women who like help other

1027
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: women out by, Like it's like, oh, you need an abortion,

1028
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:58,639
Speaker 1: come on by the coven. We'll give you an abortion.

1029
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 1: Let's sing around the fire, and it's very nice and

1030
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 1: not evil and not murdering, like that's how I wish

1031
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 1: this movie had ended, Yeah, conflating it with evil, And

1032
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 1: this is, I mean, a very common choice for this

1033
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 1: new wave of white outour horror directors to make. Is like,

1034
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:25,559
Speaker 1: and it's frustrating because at least aesthetically, I enjoy these movies,

1035
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:28,680
Speaker 1: and I enjoy parts of these movies, but I can

1036
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 1: never fully be like, I'm a big fan of this

1037
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 1: movie because in every single case, and I think Caitlin

1038
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: and I have talked about this before, of like, there's

1039
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:41,679
Speaker 1: a lot of male directors right now who are trying

1040
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:43,920
Speaker 1: to write a female character for the first time and

1041
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 1: blowing it there. And I think that a very common

1042
01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 1: mistake that they're making is to conflate women with evil.

1043
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:55,200
Speaker 1: But they're like, but it's liberating, and you're like that

1044
01:09:55,520 --> 01:10:01,240
Speaker 1: you still yeah, and and also entirely defining, using like

1045
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:03,519
Speaker 1: the last moment of the movie to define a woman

1046
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 1: entirely by her trauma, which women are constantly asking male

1047
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 1: writers not to do. Um. This bothers me more in

1048
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 1: ari aster movies than here. But I think that it

1049
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:22,439
Speaker 1: is like a very similar thing of like, yeah, she's evil.

1050
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 1: It's all kind of the same thing. Well, the Lighthouse,

1051
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 1: which is again Robert Egger's other feature at this time.

1052
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 1: Having seen both of these movies pretty recently, now, I

1053
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:39,160
Speaker 1: think that Robert Eggers thinks that women are either which

1054
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 1: is or just like kind of evil temperatures is in general,

1055
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:46,600
Speaker 1: because in the Lighthouse, there is one woman. She's on

1056
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:51,840
Speaker 1: screen for maybe less than a minute. Probably. Uh, she

1057
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:58,160
Speaker 1: is a like siren. She's a hallucination succubus type of mermaid. Yeah,

1058
01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 1: she's a She's a figment. She's a figment of Robert

1059
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 1: Pattinson's imagination. He definitely does have sex with her in

1060
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 1: his imagination's also jerking off to a mermaid figurine at

1061
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 1: different points in the film. I just I don't understand

1062
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:17,719
Speaker 1: how you could say that when Robert Egger's famously said

1063
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: in all of my trying to stand back and be

1064
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 1: objective about feet from it arises to the top, like

1065
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 1: he famously said, the most famous thing that has ever

1066
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:34,719
Speaker 1: been said about feminism, that makes the most sense. Truly,

1067
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry I should be giving him far more credit.

1068
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 1: He gets the Accidental Feminist Award. I mean it comes

1069
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:49,599
Speaker 1: down again to like Robert Egger's to me was like Hey,

1070
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,360
Speaker 1: you know how a bunch of people, mostly women, were

1071
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:58,639
Speaker 1: persecuted during this time and also throughout a large chunk

1072
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 1: of recorded history because they were suspected of being witches,

1073
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 1: even though this version of witchcraft is not real and

1074
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 1: was completely invented by the people making these accusations. Well,

1075
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 1: my movie is about how those witches are real and

1076
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 1: peur evil to verify it. That's why I don't. I mean,

1077
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:23,800
Speaker 1: it's like he so he does, he goes to the

1078
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 1: library were six times, and he like, I have no

1079
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 1: doubt that he went to the library, he said it,

1080
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:35,200
Speaker 1: But but I don't. I guess that it's like he's

1081
01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:40,640
Speaker 1: doing this research on folklore from just white settlers of

1082
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 1: this time, which he which is reflected in the interviews,

1083
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:49,120
Speaker 1: is he was reading early colonial accounts and folklore, and

1084
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 1: then he he doesn't subvert anything about like he does

1085
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 1: show I guess. I guess he goes as far as

1086
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:03,880
Speaker 1: showing that the women being accused of witchcraft themselves probably weren't,

1087
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 1: which is at first, but then religion made them, which

1088
01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 1: is like I don't really know. I feel like he

1089
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:16,840
Speaker 1: subverts the crucible by making witches actually real, which we

1090
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 1: didn't need. We don't need that. We need a story

1091
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 1: of the Crucible, right, Yeah, I just the the whole.

1092
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 1: I just feel like, yeah, he uses one word in

1093
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:33,599
Speaker 1: the subtitle of the VICH to just not actually say

1094
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:38,560
Speaker 1: that much. That said, I do I do like thomasin.

1095
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 1: I think that she's like a pretty well written and

1096
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 1: well realized character who I was worried for the whole time.

1097
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 1: And I like that she does. Like the moments that

1098
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 1: she chooses to stand up for herself, which at the

1099
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:58,400
Speaker 1: moment she doesn't, felt pretty authentic. And I also like

1100
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:03,559
Speaker 1: I felt bad for or Mercy when Thomason bullies her

1101
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:07,400
Speaker 1: and like chokes her. That was not nice. But I

1102
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:10,720
Speaker 1: also like even in that, it's like she I don't know,

1103
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:14,200
Speaker 1: I guess maybe being an elder sibling myself, who I

1104
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:18,160
Speaker 1: didn't choke Ben, but I wasn't nice to him. But

1105
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:21,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's like when your parents are giving you ship.

1106
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:25,280
Speaker 1: The only power Thomason has to inflict is on her

1107
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:28,519
Speaker 1: younger siblings, and so while it's not the best thing

1108
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:31,960
Speaker 1: for her to do, it felt like, Okay, yeah, older

1109
01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:35,840
Speaker 1: siblings do that because that's the only power they have, right.

1110
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:39,920
Speaker 1: She's also what like, I don't I don't know exactly

1111
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 1: how older character. Yeah, but I would have guessed sixteen. Wait, okay,

1112
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:47,040
Speaker 1: so I have the screenplay here, so let me just

1113
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:49,519
Speaker 1: let me pull that up and see if her age

1114
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:53,519
Speaker 1: is actually indicated in the screenplay. So let me just

1115
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 1: because my guests would have been, I think that, like

1116
01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:59,280
Speaker 1: I think Anya Taylor Joy was sixteen when it was shot.

1117
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, that, oh okay. According to the screenplay, Thomasin

1118
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 1: is thirteen. Yeah, I was thinking she was older. I

1119
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 1: was thinking she was like fifteen, sixteen, I want to

1120
01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:15,240
Speaker 1: I I guess I appreciate that they don't say an

1121
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:18,200
Speaker 1: exact number. I mean, I don't really think that. I

1122
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 1: don't know. I would have thought she was supposed to

1123
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 1: be older, right, I guess it wouldn't make a huge difference.

1124
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 1: The implication is that she, I guess is you know,

1125
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 1: she's just starting to become a woman. So that makes

1126
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:33,040
Speaker 1: sense because that's like, how old is Caleb supposed to be?

1127
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:37,960
Speaker 1: Because I was already said eight, right, Caleb is supposed

1128
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:43,120
Speaker 1: to be eleven? Oh damn it. So we so close, Jamie,

1129
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:47,560
Speaker 1: so close. Um. So that brings me to wanting to

1130
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about something we already touched

1131
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:52,560
Speaker 1: on a little bit, which is just the idea of

1132
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 1: women's bodies in the the vich like the women and

1133
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 1: so part of this discussion is Thomason maturing physically and

1134
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:07,320
Speaker 1: then being shamed for it when people notice that her

1135
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:11,360
Speaker 1: brother is always leering at her because he's also nearing

1136
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:15,240
Speaker 1: puberty if he's eleven. So, like, there's a line where

1137
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:20,120
Speaker 1: her mother says something like, you bewitched thy brother, proud slut.

1138
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:23,680
Speaker 1: Did you not think I saw thy sluttish looks to him,

1139
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:27,839
Speaker 1: bewitching his eye as any whore. Thompson's minding her own business,

1140
01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 1: doing her chores, and her brother is, you know, creepily

1141
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:35,639
Speaker 1: leering at her, and then her mom is like, you're

1142
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:38,600
Speaker 1: a slut. Yeah, I mean, and I don't even for me.

1143
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:42,519
Speaker 1: That's not so much a critique of the movie as

1144
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:46,560
Speaker 1: it is of like, this is very true to this

1145
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:51,200
Speaker 1: time and also this religion which I found out. I

1146
01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:56,240
Speaker 1: was like, whoms is Calvin? Truly he was. He's a

1147
01:16:56,280 --> 01:16:59,720
Speaker 1: guy named John Calvin, oh, a Protestant reformer in the

1148
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 1: steenth century. So it's just, I mean, all these regressive

1149
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:07,560
Speaker 1: views I was basically joking, but actually came from a

1150
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:11,360
Speaker 1: man whose last name is Calvin and Calvin, so you know,

1151
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 1: um Calvin is canceled. Yeah, yeah, I don't mean to

1152
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:18,640
Speaker 1: imply that I think that like that this isn't a

1153
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:21,080
Speaker 1: critique of the movie. This, Yeah, this is very historically

1154
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:24,519
Speaker 1: accurate and this still this idea of like shaming and

1155
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:28,599
Speaker 1: blaming women just for having bodies is very present today

1156
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:32,439
Speaker 1: and to me, like that's the horror or that's one

1157
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:35,360
Speaker 1: of the sources of horror for this movie. Like you

1158
01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:39,240
Speaker 1: don't also need to put these quote real witches in

1159
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:43,040
Speaker 1: your movie when your character has a puritanical mother who

1160
01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:46,839
Speaker 1: hates you because you're developing breasts, Like like just heightening

1161
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:48,719
Speaker 1: that would be would have been a more effective approach

1162
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:50,720
Speaker 1: to the horror movie than, you know, just to have

1163
01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:55,840
Speaker 1: some random which pop up every so often. So the

1164
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 1: other thing, and we already touched on this as well,

1165
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:01,719
Speaker 1: but the idea of like the various forms in which

1166
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:05,040
Speaker 1: we see the vivitch. We've got the like kind of

1167
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:10,240
Speaker 1: the older which form, We've got the young, which form,

1168
01:18:10,320 --> 01:18:13,320
Speaker 1: and then we've got the rabbit form, which is a

1169
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 1: an Actually I looked it up. The hair does have

1170
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:25,400
Speaker 1: witchy representations in old in early Americas, which more didn't

1171
01:18:25,479 --> 01:18:28,200
Speaker 1: realize that, well, he went to a library, and you

1172
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 1: think there were also things for like frogs. I mean,

1173
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. People were just shreaming so hard back.

1174
01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:41,639
Speaker 1: They're just like, oh, there's an animal, probably a demon

1175
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 1: lives inside of it. It's trying to kill me, to

1176
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 1: kill me. But um, so just to kind of repeat

1177
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:50,439
Speaker 1: the idea of there is a horror trope that is

1178
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:54,639
Speaker 1: quite present in many horror films, the idea of seeing

1179
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:59,800
Speaker 1: an image of an older woman skin a hack, not

1180
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:04,800
Speaker 1: super thin, not western beauty standards, gorgeous, as being a

1181
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:08,880
Speaker 1: part of the horror imagery of the film. And Jamie,

1182
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:11,240
Speaker 1: you brought up the Shining. This exact same thing happens

1183
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:13,000
Speaker 1: in that movie too, where it's like there's that scene

1184
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:16,599
Speaker 1: where you know, Jack Torrence is drawn to room whatever

1185
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:19,880
Speaker 1: it is two thirty seven or if that's wrong, please

1186
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:25,320
Speaker 1: slide in never religion. But he starts because he's drawn

1187
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:30,559
Speaker 1: in by this conventionally attractive woman lures him in. They

1188
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 1: start making out because she's naked, and that's what you

1189
01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:36,840
Speaker 1: do when you see a hot woman, and um, then

1190
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 1: suddenly she is older. She's the you know, the hag trope,

1191
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 1: and that's part of the horror like, oh, how it's

1192
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:51,840
Speaker 1: disgusting now terrifying, it's just shorthand for evil, Like it's

1193
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:56,360
Speaker 1: the least sexual naked image in movies. I feel like

1194
01:19:56,360 --> 01:19:59,000
Speaker 1: it's like the bodies of older women are the least

1195
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:03,479
Speaker 1: sexual like nude images, and hor be terrified of it.

1196
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:05,800
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, both, but I am really

1197
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:08,639
Speaker 1: looking forward to having a body that looks like that. Um,

1198
01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:13,000
Speaker 1: it sounds it seems great. I just got the the

1199
01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:17,560
Speaker 1: the amount of trouble male filmmakers will go through to

1200
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:23,040
Speaker 1: make women terrified of what would be a very lucky

1201
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:26,519
Speaker 1: thing to arrive at, to get to live for a

1202
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:31,320
Speaker 1: long time and have a body like but they don't

1203
01:20:31,439 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 1: like it, they don't want to have sex with it,

1204
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:36,160
Speaker 1: so it's scary. I feel like it's on par with

1205
01:20:36,400 --> 01:20:41,560
Speaker 1: like the sci fi vagina mouth monster with the most annoying,

1206
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:47,000
Speaker 1: like blatantly anti feminist tropes that if you ask a

1207
01:20:47,080 --> 01:20:49,920
Speaker 1: male filmmaker about it doesn't look like a vagina to me,

1208
01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:54,760
Speaker 1: and you're like, sir, it's that's the thing in the

1209
01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:59,400
Speaker 1: lighthouse to where the mermaid who he imagines, uh and

1210
01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:03,400
Speaker 1: then has sex with. There's like this, and maybe I'm

1211
01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:05,759
Speaker 1: misremembering this, but I'm pretty sure this is what happens,

1212
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:10,240
Speaker 1: where he like looks down and she has like the

1213
01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:15,240
Speaker 1: mermaid succubus lady has like an enormous volva, like the

1214
01:21:15,320 --> 01:21:21,160
Speaker 1: size of a dinner plate. Like it's like forty Like

1215
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 1: can you not do this? Truly? Couldn't your hang up

1216
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:29,680
Speaker 1: man deal with this by yourself? I don't know. By

1217
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:34,280
Speaker 1: the way, um. The actor who plays the vitch Beth

1218
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:39,720
Speaker 1: Sheba Garnette, she was born in nine, so in this

1219
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:43,800
Speaker 1: movie she's like ninety and that yeah, good for her.

1220
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:47,800
Speaker 1: If only she had been like framed and used respectfully

1221
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:50,280
Speaker 1: in the movie. Imagine that being too much to ask.

1222
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:53,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I think about this often because I am

1223
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:58,080
Speaker 1: also a performer, But I just I dread the casting

1224
01:21:58,160 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 1: notice that is asking for or my naked old body,

1225
01:22:03,439 --> 01:22:06,200
Speaker 1: the older, the better, the saggy, or the better in

1226
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:10,519
Speaker 1: the same way that I um am privy to um

1227
01:22:11,400 --> 01:22:17,760
Speaker 1: fat casting notices that are really extremely offensive because we

1228
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:21,920
Speaker 1: can't cast fat women as um anything but the fat

1229
01:22:22,479 --> 01:22:26,639
Speaker 1: woman that's the defining character is stick of their character

1230
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 1: and that's all we ever know about them. Oh good grief, Well,

1231
01:22:33,160 --> 01:22:37,280
Speaker 1: does anyone have any other thoughts? On the film The Witch.

1232
01:22:38,200 --> 01:22:41,280
Speaker 1: I guess I just wanted to talk about Catherine really quick.

1233
01:22:41,320 --> 01:22:44,240
Speaker 1: We haven't talked about her that Oh sure, much she

1234
01:22:44,479 --> 01:22:48,400
Speaker 1: apologizes for bringing a shrew to her husband, she does

1235
01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:53,360
Speaker 1: pique his wife behavior. I should not have been a

1236
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:58,240
Speaker 1: shrewd to the and it's like, all right, um, I yeah,

1237
01:22:58,360 --> 01:23:01,559
Speaker 1: I guess that. I don't love that she is painted

1238
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 1: to be the more villainous parent. I don't quite like

1239
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:10,719
Speaker 1: how she's characterized, but it I do think it's interesting

1240
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:13,600
Speaker 1: in the same way that like Caleb isn't allowed, like

1241
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:17,439
Speaker 1: his religion doesn't permit him the space or permission to

1242
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:22,560
Speaker 1: grieve his dead family member, I feel like you do

1243
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:25,120
Speaker 1: sort of on top of the fact that she is

1244
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:28,839
Speaker 1: a part of a deeply oppressive society and is on drugs.

1245
01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:35,400
Speaker 1: Um like, she is deeply depressed, and anytime she brings

1246
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:38,439
Speaker 1: it up to anyone around her, they basically tell her

1247
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:41,759
Speaker 1: to shut up, and she's like just lost an infant,

1248
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:47,160
Speaker 1: and so in that way, I feel for her, But

1249
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:50,759
Speaker 1: it's also like a mother being also the visual metaphor

1250
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:57,000
Speaker 1: of like the repeated visual metaphor of mother's equals breastfeed

1251
01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:01,080
Speaker 1: Like breastfeeding metaphor I feel like it's is pretty lazy

1252
01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:04,680
Speaker 1: if nothing else, And you know just the fact that,

1253
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:07,320
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't know much about any of these characters,

1254
01:24:07,400 --> 01:24:10,320
Speaker 1: but we know. What we know about this character is

1255
01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:14,800
Speaker 1: that she is grieving her son and she hates her daughter.

1256
01:24:15,439 --> 01:24:19,080
Speaker 1: And why, I mean, I guess you again. Another generous

1257
01:24:19,160 --> 01:24:23,440
Speaker 1: interpretation is that, like, it doesn't seem like Calvinism encourages

1258
01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 1: women to like each other or to to do anything

1259
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:29,080
Speaker 1: but blame each other for the things that are not

1260
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:32,080
Speaker 1: their fault. And there are moments where you can tell,

1261
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, she wants to believe Thomasin. But then but

1262
01:24:35,160 --> 01:24:37,719
Speaker 1: the second she gets permission to call her a witch,

1263
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:42,559
Speaker 1: she's like, I'm going to kill you, and so um,

1264
01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:45,360
Speaker 1: I just I don't like her. I don't have to

1265
01:24:45,479 --> 01:24:48,799
Speaker 1: like her. But you know what I think is interesting

1266
01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:53,320
Speaker 1: is this actress who plays her what's her name again,

1267
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:58,760
Speaker 1: I'm looking at Kate Dicky. Kate Dickie, who plays Catherine

1268
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:05,919
Speaker 1: breastfeeds in the movie and also in Game of Thrones,

1269
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:11,880
Speaker 1: plays Catherine's sister in Game of Thrones, who is breastfeeding

1270
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 1: a like eight year old, yeah, eight year old, like

1271
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:20,280
Speaker 1: a very well past breastfeeding age. She has had to

1272
01:25:20,439 --> 01:25:24,920
Speaker 1: breastfeed in her career. For two major roles, She's had

1273
01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:31,400
Speaker 1: to breastfeed, which is such a weird type cast. What

1274
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:36,280
Speaker 1: a horrible situation we're putting people in. That's so annoyed

1275
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:41,800
Speaker 1: like her to arguably her two biggest credits, she has

1276
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 1: to horror breastfeed. Yeah right, It's like the same thing

1277
01:25:46,680 --> 01:25:50,799
Speaker 1: of like body horror imagery, like things that are natural,

1278
01:25:51,280 --> 01:25:57,000
Speaker 1: like a woman's body, aging, breastfeeding, etcetera. Like those things

1279
01:25:57,040 --> 01:26:00,040
Speaker 1: are made to seem scary and unnatural and wrong, And

1280
01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:02,599
Speaker 1: I just I don't think images like that should ever

1281
01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:07,280
Speaker 1: be included as a part of like the horrifying imagery

1282
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:12,080
Speaker 1: of a horror movie, especially when those things are never

1283
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:17,479
Speaker 1: almost never framed in any kind of positive light in media.

1284
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:21,360
Speaker 1: Either we see nothing in terms of that kind of representation,

1285
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:24,880
Speaker 1: or it's there but only in horror movies as a

1286
01:26:24,920 --> 01:26:27,000
Speaker 1: part of the horror. And I do not like that

1287
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:29,760
Speaker 1: at all. Yeah, I don't know. There's I think as

1288
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:33,720
Speaker 1: it pertains to women, I I like Thomasin's characterization, and

1289
01:26:34,720 --> 01:26:38,719
Speaker 1: I don't think that any of the female characters especially

1290
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:41,479
Speaker 1: are particularly well thought out, especially because the conclusion is

1291
01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:46,160
Speaker 1: that they're evil. But I guess that's what I'm to saying.

1292
01:26:46,160 --> 01:26:51,280
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, if nothing else, I like that Thomason survives

1293
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:54,439
Speaker 1: until the end. I was really worried that she wouldn't.

1294
01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:57,320
Speaker 1: I'm glad she does, but I don't like that it's

1295
01:26:57,360 --> 01:27:00,360
Speaker 1: to be like and she's the witch, and you're like,

1296
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:04,120
Speaker 1: what are you telling me? Like? What are you telling

1297
01:27:04,240 --> 01:27:06,880
Speaker 1: me that? I think I think what he might be

1298
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:09,720
Speaker 1: trying to say, And maybe I'm like, I don't want

1299
01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 1: to put words in feminist icon Robert Egger's mouth, but

1300
01:27:13,880 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 1: I feel like he's like, you know, witches are like made,

1301
01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:20,559
Speaker 1: not born, I think is maybe what that's I think

1302
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:24,759
Speaker 1: a generous interpretation of like all this religious oppression made

1303
01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:28,120
Speaker 1: her a witch and it wasn't. But but but that

1304
01:27:28,280 --> 01:27:31,559
Speaker 1: also um still makes women evil and also doesn't make

1305
01:27:32,320 --> 01:27:37,479
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. UM. So I am just quickly

1306
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:42,360
Speaker 1: looking up the two WHOA, I'm looking up the two

1307
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:49,120
Speaker 1: people who played the people to see if they're actually native.

1308
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:54,320
Speaker 1: I can't tell. One of them was also in Freedom

1309
01:27:54,400 --> 01:28:00,200
Speaker 1: Writers and was on Top Chef. Anyway, I always look

1310
01:28:00,280 --> 01:28:06,240
Speaker 1: for that because I am genuinely like pleased when a

1311
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:11,880
Speaker 1: director casts actual native people to play natives in movies.

1312
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen that often. That does not surprise me

1313
01:28:14,320 --> 01:28:17,680
Speaker 1: and Jenna. You mentioned, um a test that I don't

1314
01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:21,120
Speaker 1: think we were familiar with, Jamie and I um until

1315
01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:23,320
Speaker 1: you mentioned it. But would it be the a LA test,

1316
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:26,400
Speaker 1: the ISLA tests, ISLA test. Yeah, if I'm reading it

1317
01:28:26,479 --> 01:28:30,680
Speaker 1: as Iola and it is a media test created by

1318
01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:35,080
Speaker 1: Ali Nadi. Um, I hope I'm pronouncing that right. And

1319
01:28:35,240 --> 01:28:38,519
Speaker 1: to pass the test, a female character in a piece

1320
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:43,240
Speaker 1: of media is an indigenous slash Aboriginal woman who is

1321
01:28:43,320 --> 01:28:46,360
Speaker 1: a main character, who does not fall in love with

1322
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:50,759
Speaker 1: a white man, and who does not end up raped

1323
01:28:50,920 --> 01:28:54,240
Speaker 1: or murdered at any point in the story. So, um,

1324
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:59,439
Speaker 1: the three qualifications. It needs to be stated. It's real

1325
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:04,920
Speaker 1: bad here for depressing good lord, thank you for letting

1326
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:08,840
Speaker 1: us know about that. Um. Yeah, it's relatively new. This

1327
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:14,080
Speaker 1: this test is from the first of it's kind, but

1328
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:18,360
Speaker 1: it's absolutely necessary because you will be hard pressed to

1329
01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:24,439
Speaker 1: find a a lead female character in a TV show

1330
01:29:25,320 --> 01:29:29,519
Speaker 1: who doesn't get killed. I mean, not even elite. You

1331
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:32,519
Speaker 1: will be found hard pressed to find a lead indigenous character.

1332
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:37,120
Speaker 1: I'll just say that. That's the end of my statement. Well,

1333
01:29:37,560 --> 01:29:40,080
Speaker 1: does that bring us to the other tests that we

1334
01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 1: should put this film up against. Yes, okay, the Bechtel test.

1335
01:29:46,320 --> 01:29:52,000
Speaker 1: Does it pass? I think it does. Between Thomasin and Catherine,

1336
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:55,200
Speaker 1: they talk about a silver cup, they talk about goats.

1337
01:29:55,760 --> 01:29:59,800
Speaker 1: Between Thomason and Mercy as well, they're talking about chesch.

1338
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:04,480
Speaker 1: They're all accusing each other of being witches. That unfortunately

1339
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:12,080
Speaker 1: passes the when you say, hey woman, you are a witch. Yeah,

1340
01:30:12,160 --> 01:30:14,479
Speaker 1: I think I think it does. Um, it does pass,

1341
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:19,439
Speaker 1: amazing feminist icon Robert Igers. I'm surprised and amazed. Yeah,

1342
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:24,080
Speaker 1: I honestly as well. But it does not pass some

1343
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:26,840
Speaker 1: of the other tests that we moving forward or going

1344
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:31,439
Speaker 1: to put the film up against, such as the it's

1345
01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:37,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's a bunch of white religious extremists colonizers

1346
01:30:37,439 --> 01:30:40,800
Speaker 1: and yes, so it's really not going to pass most

1347
01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:45,320
Speaker 1: of the tests. Very least they're not made out to

1348
01:30:45,479 --> 01:30:49,680
Speaker 1: look good, right, which is I think the most you

1349
01:30:49,800 --> 01:30:52,719
Speaker 1: can say. Well, that brings us to our nipple scale,

1350
01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:58,519
Speaker 1: in which we um examine how well the movie fares

1351
01:30:58,600 --> 01:31:01,879
Speaker 1: when it comes when it's put through an intersectional feminist

1352
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:06,320
Speaker 1: lens as a five nipples, my brain is like rupturing.

1353
01:31:07,320 --> 01:31:11,880
Speaker 1: I guess I would give it like a two on

1354
01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:15,960
Speaker 1: the grounds that well, that's probably too generous. I do

1355
01:31:16,200 --> 01:31:19,160
Speaker 1: like Thomason as a character, and I do see a

1356
01:31:19,320 --> 01:31:23,360
Speaker 1: version of the story in which she is empowered by

1357
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:26,800
Speaker 1: the end and like has autonomy and has escaped the

1358
01:31:26,840 --> 01:31:33,360
Speaker 1: fundamentalism of her oppressive family. And you know, I guess

1359
01:31:33,520 --> 01:31:37,160
Speaker 1: is gonna thrive as a witch, probably in the coven

1360
01:31:37,280 --> 01:31:40,920
Speaker 1: of the other witches. Um, But we don't know that,

1361
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:43,479
Speaker 1: I guess, are we assuming have been through the exact

1362
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:47,760
Speaker 1: same thing? Right? Is it just like other like farms

1363
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:51,400
Speaker 1: like spread out like every few miles, there's just another

1364
01:31:51,640 --> 01:31:56,120
Speaker 1: daughter who's like being oppressed by their Calvinist family and

1365
01:31:56,200 --> 01:31:58,400
Speaker 1: they have to escape this life and they all just

1366
01:31:58,520 --> 01:32:04,720
Speaker 1: converge in the forest. May Yeah, I guess so. But yeah,

1367
01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:10,200
Speaker 1: my big issue with this is, um, the being accused

1368
01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:13,320
Speaker 1: of being a witch and then having that happened in

1369
01:32:13,360 --> 01:32:16,080
Speaker 1: the same story in which evil witches who have made

1370
01:32:16,120 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 1: a pact with the devil are real and you're probably

1371
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:23,360
Speaker 1: going to become one. Um feeling around long enough and

1372
01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:26,720
Speaker 1: just yeah, that whole thing, So maybe I'll go down

1373
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:31,680
Speaker 1: to now I'll stay with it too. I'll be decisive

1374
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:34,519
Speaker 1: for once in my life, which is still a failing grade,

1375
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:39,200
Speaker 1: so I feel fine about that. It's less than so uh,

1376
01:32:39,360 --> 01:32:42,160
Speaker 1: and I'll give both of them to Black Philip. Obviously,

1377
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:46,960
Speaker 1: both of my nipples go to Black Philip, which is weirdly.

1378
01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:50,040
Speaker 1: I know that we it's the title of the character,

1379
01:32:50,120 --> 01:32:54,120
Speaker 1: but I cannot help but find racial undertones in the name.

1380
01:32:55,040 --> 01:32:59,240
Speaker 1: It's for sure, especially because like the two goats that

1381
01:32:59,360 --> 01:33:03,360
Speaker 1: were per quickly, well behaved and not possessed by the

1382
01:33:03,479 --> 01:33:06,840
Speaker 1: devil were white, and that is an actual real thing

1383
01:33:06,920 --> 01:33:10,759
Speaker 1: in witchcraft, the idea of white magic versus black magic

1384
01:33:11,080 --> 01:33:15,200
Speaker 1: is does have racial origins. Yes, did you read that

1385
01:33:15,439 --> 01:33:22,080
Speaker 1: at the library, Robert, I'm pull in my library hard.

1386
01:33:23,640 --> 01:33:25,760
Speaker 1: I'm being a little hard on him. He doesn't say

1387
01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:27,439
Speaker 1: it that much, but it just made me laugh that

1388
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:30,200
Speaker 1: He's like, well, folks, I went to the library. I'm

1389
01:33:30,200 --> 01:33:33,559
Speaker 1: going to give this movie one nipple. I I think

1390
01:33:33,640 --> 01:33:38,400
Speaker 1: that it is partially stemming from frustration that it features

1391
01:33:38,560 --> 01:33:44,320
Speaker 1: so many tropes that are used against female characters so often,

1392
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:49,080
Speaker 1: especially in contemporary horror. But it also I think the

1393
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:53,000
Speaker 1: response to it at the time was like feminist, which

1394
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:56,920
Speaker 1: I don't think is true. And I just I really

1395
01:33:57,320 --> 01:33:59,479
Speaker 1: I know that horror it's a horror movie. There's going

1396
01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:01,840
Speaker 1: to be a lot of trauma, but I think that

1397
01:34:01,920 --> 01:34:04,960
Speaker 1: there are better ways to depict female trauma than is

1398
01:34:05,160 --> 01:34:08,120
Speaker 1: done in this movie. I like Thomas and a lot.

1399
01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:12,240
Speaker 1: I hope the best for her in her next chapter. UM,

1400
01:34:12,560 --> 01:34:17,000
Speaker 1: and I don't. I don't want it. Uh, we don't

1401
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:20,400
Speaker 1: need it. But but she I do like. I feel

1402
01:34:20,400 --> 01:34:23,680
Speaker 1: like she makes the movie for me, and like the

1403
01:34:23,720 --> 01:34:27,800
Speaker 1: anxiety I felt wanting to protect her. I feel like

1404
01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:30,599
Speaker 1: is what held the movie together for me. And also

1405
01:34:30,760 --> 01:34:34,840
Speaker 1: just seeing, like, in a very brutally depicted way, the

1406
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:41,240
Speaker 1: delusion that comes with extreme religious settings and how it

1407
01:34:41,479 --> 01:34:45,280
Speaker 1: can turn you against people that you love, and like

1408
01:34:45,439 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 1: it can just completely tear your life apart. I thought

1409
01:34:48,560 --> 01:34:51,639
Speaker 1: like that point was well made, and I think maybe

1410
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:53,479
Speaker 1: that was more the point he was trying to make.

1411
01:34:54,040 --> 01:34:56,080
Speaker 1: But inside of that point he's trying to make. I

1412
01:34:56,160 --> 01:34:58,680
Speaker 1: feel like his female characters get a little lost in

1413
01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:03,360
Speaker 1: a little muddled so to quote a scholar, In all

1414
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:07,080
Speaker 1: of my trying to stand back and be objective about themes,

1415
01:35:08,400 --> 01:35:11,559
Speaker 1: feminism rises to the top. It's just there in your

1416
01:35:11,600 --> 01:35:15,120
Speaker 1: face that rises right up. I just like I cannot

1417
01:35:15,439 --> 01:35:18,000
Speaker 1: subscribe to the mindset that I just feel like it

1418
01:35:18,160 --> 01:35:22,439
Speaker 1: is so like baby brain to be like levitating woman

1419
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:27,000
Speaker 1: last shot. It's feminist, Like I just know, I'm gonna

1420
01:35:27,040 --> 01:35:30,240
Speaker 1: give it one nipple, and I'll give the nipple to Thomason.

1421
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:35,479
Speaker 1: I hope she's doing well. Are Robert Eggers which is immortal?

1422
01:35:35,560 --> 01:35:38,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. She might still be around,

1423
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:42,280
Speaker 1: could be Jenna, what about you? Um, I'm also gonna

1424
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:46,439
Speaker 1: give it one nipple. If I'm really looking at it

1425
01:35:46,560 --> 01:35:52,280
Speaker 1: authentically through an intersectional lens, Thomason is really only experiencing

1426
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:55,280
Speaker 1: one oppression, and it's because she's a woman. I guess

1427
01:35:55,280 --> 01:35:59,000
Speaker 1: there's some religious oppression happening in there too, But intersectionality

1428
01:35:59,160 --> 01:36:02,919
Speaker 1: is more about um, the oppression that arises from queerness,

1429
01:36:03,080 --> 01:36:07,840
Speaker 1: from gender, from race, and I think that like there's

1430
01:36:07,920 --> 01:36:11,400
Speaker 1: literally no other UM. I guess there is some. There

1431
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:14,800
Speaker 1: is a lot of ages m in this movie, just

1432
01:36:15,000 --> 01:36:19,360
Speaker 1: like we just hate old people, specifically old women. I

1433
01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:22,479
Speaker 1: don't love that. I really think we can there's a

1434
01:36:22,560 --> 01:36:25,560
Speaker 1: better way to scare people. I feel like there's a

1435
01:36:25,680 --> 01:36:30,080
Speaker 1: better If we're going to move toward horror that is

1436
01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:35,960
Speaker 1: actually psychologically terrifying, we need to lean into the get

1437
01:36:36,040 --> 01:36:40,120
Speaker 1: out versions of these things, and this was this had

1438
01:36:40,240 --> 01:36:45,560
Speaker 1: opportunities to really make a critique about early religious settlements

1439
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:50,080
Speaker 1: and how fucked up they were. Um, but it then

1440
01:36:50,160 --> 01:36:54,360
Speaker 1: it just was magical in the end um, instead of

1441
01:36:54,560 --> 01:37:02,280
Speaker 1: like confronting the reality, the non magical reality of just

1442
01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:11,080
Speaker 1: straight up tripping balls hyper Christianity. Right, you know what,

1443
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:15,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna bring my score down to one nipple. No,

1444
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:17,920
Speaker 1: I do this all the time. I let other people

1445
01:37:18,040 --> 01:37:22,920
Speaker 1: influence me. But hey, isn't that how we grow? Isn't

1446
01:37:23,000 --> 01:37:28,360
Speaker 1: that how we become better people? To listen and to

1447
01:37:29,800 --> 01:37:36,320
Speaker 1: flect back onto ourselves five minutes ago? Oh my god.

1448
01:37:36,360 --> 01:37:39,160
Speaker 1: That like any time I write in a diary and

1449
01:37:39,280 --> 01:37:41,840
Speaker 1: I'll like go back to three days earlier and just

1450
01:37:41,960 --> 01:37:43,679
Speaker 1: to see what I was like, Oh, I hate myself

1451
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:46,479
Speaker 1: three days ago. I was such an idiot. So this

1452
01:37:46,680 --> 01:37:51,599
Speaker 1: is very much my personality. It's good. It allows growth. Yea, yeah,

1453
01:37:51,680 --> 01:37:53,479
Speaker 1: I didn't even really thought of it. Yeah, it's like

1454
01:37:53,560 --> 01:37:56,760
Speaker 1: every every complicated discussion that this movie could have had,

1455
01:37:57,000 --> 01:38:02,599
Speaker 1: it just says magic instead. Yeah, specifically like black dark magic,

1456
01:38:02,720 --> 01:38:10,160
Speaker 1: like dartmagic, with very in my opinion, clear racial undertones.

1457
01:38:10,360 --> 01:38:15,080
Speaker 1: Racial undertones for sure. Yes, Um, well there you have

1458
01:38:15,280 --> 01:38:19,600
Speaker 1: it folks, the Witch, sorry, the Vivich, Jenna. Thank you

1459
01:38:19,640 --> 01:38:22,000
Speaker 1: so much for being here. This has been amazing. Thanks

1460
01:38:22,040 --> 01:38:25,080
Speaker 1: for having me. Of course. Of course, where can people

1461
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:29,000
Speaker 1: follow you online? Check out your stuff anything, whatever you'd

1462
01:38:29,000 --> 01:38:31,880
Speaker 1: like to plug? Oh my gosh, um Well, I have

1463
01:38:32,040 --> 01:38:35,680
Speaker 1: a podcast called Woman of Size. It's about life in

1464
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:41,679
Speaker 1: the intersections of race, gender and fatness. It's about wait

1465
01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:46,560
Speaker 1: stigma and it's also funny. It's great. But that is

1466
01:38:46,680 --> 01:38:49,720
Speaker 1: at Woman of Size pot on Instagram and Twitter. I

1467
01:38:49,840 --> 01:38:53,760
Speaker 1: also have a personal Instagram Twitter that's Janna Unplugged. And

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01:38:54,680 --> 01:38:59,120
Speaker 1: I hope that everybody will watch the TV show Rutherford

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01:38:59,200 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 1: Falls coming out on the Peacock Network. I wrote on

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01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:07,599
Speaker 1: the show and it's the first show that is has

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01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:13,639
Speaker 1: native lead comedic characters. That's awesome. So I'm really excited

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01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:16,840
Speaker 1: about that. Hell yeah, if you can check out us

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01:39:17,080 --> 01:39:21,040
Speaker 1: on the social media as well, Twitter, Instagram, at Bechtel Cast.

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01:39:21,280 --> 01:39:25,479
Speaker 1: We've got our Patreon ak Matreon. It's five dollars a month.

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01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:27,679
Speaker 1: It gets you two Bonnets episodes every single month, plus

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01:39:27,760 --> 01:39:31,800
Speaker 1: access to our entire back catalog. Also, if anyone wants

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01:39:31,840 --> 01:39:35,599
Speaker 1: that Robert Egger's quote on a T shirt, I'm very tempted.

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01:39:35,720 --> 01:39:38,840
Speaker 1: So I just need one one listener to want it

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01:39:39,360 --> 01:39:41,320
Speaker 1: and that will be enough for me to follow through.

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01:39:42,920 --> 01:39:45,240
Speaker 1: We gotta there. I have a list of of of

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01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:48,200
Speaker 1: like T shirt. Well, now it's time we gotta make

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01:39:48,760 --> 01:39:51,200
Speaker 1: you know, deeply unemployed and and locked in my home?

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01:39:51,320 --> 01:39:54,839
Speaker 1: So sure, can I just scrawl the words of Robert Duggers?

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01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:59,120
Speaker 1: Yes I can. Well, if you do want our existing

1485
01:39:59,200 --> 01:40:02,559
Speaker 1: merch and any upcoming new merch, go to t public

1486
01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:05,040
Speaker 1: dot com slash the beectel cast for all of your

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01:40:05,520 --> 01:40:12,519
Speaker 1: merchandising needs and otherwise, uh, you know, I was going

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01:40:12,560 --> 01:40:14,320
Speaker 1: to try to quote this movie and I realized I

1489
01:40:14,400 --> 01:40:17,439
Speaker 1: don't know a goddamn thing they're ever saying, because it's

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01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:25,360
Speaker 1: like seventeenth century English, So never mind lived deliciously, deliciously, deliciously. Also,

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01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:28,639
Speaker 1: any time that someone started one more, one more Robert

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01:40:28,680 --> 01:40:32,200
Speaker 1: Egger's Dunk before we go, anytime someone was like, wow,

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01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:35,880
Speaker 1: the dialogue sounds so authentic and he's like, well I

1494
01:40:35,960 --> 01:40:40,960
Speaker 1: went to the library. You're like, shut up, stop, he's

1495
01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:46,080
Speaker 1: a library boy, library baby. Also, sorry, one last thing,

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01:40:46,720 --> 01:40:49,559
Speaker 1: the Black Phillip the Devil and when he becomes am

1497
01:40:49,640 --> 01:40:53,080
Speaker 1: a man, a devil man He's like, what would you like.

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01:40:53,680 --> 01:40:56,519
Speaker 1: I'll give you a pretty dress, because you know, women

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01:40:56,560 --> 01:41:00,800
Speaker 1: be shopping. Women be loving dresses, even zero dollars in

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01:41:00,840 --> 01:41:06,200
Speaker 1: the middle of the woods. Women be shopping truly. Um, alright,

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01:41:06,640 --> 01:41:09,360
Speaker 1: that'll that'll do it. Thanks for listening, We'll we'll see

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Speaker 1: you next week. I