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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey Daron, welcome back. This is the latest edition of

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Speaker 1: the Book of Joe Podcast with Me, Tom Berducci, and

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Speaker 1: Joe Madden. Joe, We've got a lot to get to today.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about someone who was one of

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Speaker 1: the best at the sport that he delves in, who

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Speaker 1: just retired. We'll talk about that and what that has

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Speaker 1: to do with baseball, But first of all, tell me

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Speaker 1: how your Thanksgiving was wonderful.

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Speaker 2: I had it down here in Florida. We're down here

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Speaker 2: right now, and I went to Michael Stewart's sister's house

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Speaker 2: over in Passlegrill.

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Speaker 3: Great food.

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Speaker 2: They did a wonderful job with it, right on the beach,

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Speaker 2: great setting. But overall we had a wonderful day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, same with us. Really nice day. It was a

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Speaker 1: rainy morning for us in New Jersey, but everything went

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Speaker 1: really well. The turkey came out great. My wife always

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Speaker 1: does a great job, but this turkey kept giving meat.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was we still have leftovers, that's how

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Speaker 1: big it was.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, I'm not good at that, but these people, Mike's,

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Speaker 2: Michael's family did a wonderful job.

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Speaker 3: Turkey was hot. Stuffing was great.

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Speaker 2: Ancillary things even a big piece of brisket, steak whatever,

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Speaker 2: it was outstandingly done. And a really really well done

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Speaker 2: glass of wine too.

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Speaker 1: Hey, listen, we know the Winter Meetings are coming up

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Speaker 1: next week in Dallas. I will be there. This shopping season,

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Speaker 1: as it is for free agents, is starting to heat up.

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Speaker 1: To me, there's been two trends so far. The Angels

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Speaker 1: have stepped up and got a lot of shopping done

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Speaker 1: early and adding some depth and some veteran experience to

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Speaker 1: their team. And the market for starting pictures. That's what

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about, Joe. The market for starting pitchers.

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Speaker 1: Guys have jumped out early, and it seems like especially

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Speaker 1: the guys who do not have qualifying offers attached to them,

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Speaker 1: you know, with you say, Kakuchie, Blake Snell and recently

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Speaker 1: Frankie Montoss and Matthew Boyd all getting contracts multi R

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Speaker 1: tracks as free agents. Joe, a guy like Montas I

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Speaker 1: look at his numbers, I see nothing special, Okay. He

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Speaker 1: had one year for Oakland in twenty twenty one where

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Speaker 1: he pitched well through one hundred and eighty seven innings

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Speaker 1: with a three to three er Since then in three years,

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Speaker 1: he's thirteen and twenty three with a four point four

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Speaker 1: to three ERA, so that's an ERA adjusted ERA plus

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Speaker 1: of ninety two. So he's been a below average pitcher

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Speaker 1: averaging one hundred innings a year for three years. He

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Speaker 1: gets a two year, thirty four million dollar deal for

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Speaker 1: the New York Mets. I think Joe, to me, it

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Speaker 1: speaks to how sparse the market is for starting pitchers.

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Speaker 1: That we know, they pitch less than ever before, they

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Speaker 1: pitch with more rest than ever before, they break down

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Speaker 1: more than ever before, and it seems like if you

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Speaker 1: are a guy running a baseball team, you just got

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Speaker 1: to load up on inventory. You know, not everybody's going

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Speaker 1: to be at the front of your rotation.

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Speaker 3: We know that.

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Speaker 1: So having a guy at the age of well, it'll

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Speaker 1: be thirty two at March in Montas, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if he's a sure thing, Joe, But the way I

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Speaker 1: think David Stearns the Mets look at this is they

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Speaker 1: need starting pitching and he's out there and available.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, then they look into their own little bag of

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Speaker 2: tricks what they feel like they're capable of doing, like Manea,

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Speaker 2: what he had done by coming over to the Mets.

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Speaker 2: He is also a former Oakland AA, but he was

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Speaker 2: there and Montoss was there in Oakland.

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you what I mean.

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Speaker 2: These guys were really good out there because I saw

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Speaker 2: them a lot, and Montasas that splitter was ridiculously good.

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Speaker 2: He was really tough. The last time I saw a

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Speaker 2: pitch on a regular basis those one hundred and eighty

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Speaker 2: innings that he had at that time. So I think

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Speaker 2: part of its history, it's one of the old scouting

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Speaker 2: adages that they've done it before, they could show it

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Speaker 2: to you again. And more than anything, it's a I

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Speaker 2: think it is a variety of different thoughts. And you

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Speaker 2: said it's the dearth of starting pitching. Where we're going

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Speaker 2: to find it. And then you look for people that

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Speaker 2: have been somewhat successful or successful, and I think they've

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Speaker 2: gotten away from some things. You look at your own

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Speaker 2: analytics and thinks, ah, we can help this guy. They

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Speaker 2: probably have something in mind. I would imagine they're going

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Speaker 2: to go out and sign up for that amount of money.

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Speaker 2: They probably spoke to him about it, talked to him,

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Speaker 2: made a wonderful presentation regarding the adjustments.

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Speaker 3: They like to see him make.

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Speaker 2: And then they're gonna point to like Manea and other

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Speaker 2: success stories that they've had in the recent past, because

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Speaker 2: the Mets have had a pretty good run even recently. Patterson,

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Speaker 2: there's other guys Peterson Peterson.

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Speaker 1: Or Patterson Peterson, yeah, David Peters, Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean they've had a nice run there with taking

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Speaker 2: guys and bringing their careers kind of like back in order.

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Speaker 2: So I think that's part of it. Stearn says that reputation,

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Speaker 2: so it's you know, that's just how the game works today,

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Speaker 2: is that it's kind of the flavor of the month.

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Speaker 2: There's other teams right now looking to take relief pictures

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Speaker 2: and making them into starters. As an example, I mean

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Speaker 2: Seth Lugo, who I've always loved what his success did

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Speaker 2: last year in Kansas City, last couple of years in

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Speaker 2: San Diego.

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Speaker 3: I think that speaks to it.

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Speaker 2: I'm hearing that reading that the Clay Holmes is another

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Speaker 2: potential option to do something like that.

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Speaker 3: So I think you're going to see.

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Speaker 2: Digging into relief picture's former starter has become really levers,

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Speaker 2: and then they look at them more specifically based on

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Speaker 2: their own little cocktails and decide who can we help

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Speaker 2: and who fits in and for whatever reasons, and I

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Speaker 2: think they're going to see more of that.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about trying to keep these guys healthy, because

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Speaker 1: that's the biggest thing that teams need. Such an inventory

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Speaker 1: of pitchers last year, on average, I'm just talking about

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Speaker 1: starting pitches now, not relief pitching. Teams went through one

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty seven starters went on the il last year.

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Speaker 1: That's an average of between five and six starting pitchers

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Speaker 1: per team per season. So essentially, when you build out

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Speaker 1: your team, you need to build two rotations. Right, you

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Speaker 1: need a depth to behind everybody one through five. Right.

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Speaker 1: The amount of money paid to starting pitchers last year

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Speaker 1: who could not pitch because of injury was four hundred

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Speaker 1: and ninety eight point six million dollars, almost five hundred

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Speaker 1: million dollars. Now that that cost, if you will, in

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Speaker 1: the last two years alone, has got up sixty percent.

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Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two, it was three hundred and twelve million,

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Speaker 1: and now it's almost five hundred million. In the span

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Speaker 1: of just two years. It's gone up more than twenty

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Speaker 1: five percent each of the last two years. This is

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Speaker 1: what teams are up against. Go look at the free

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Speaker 1: agent pitchers starting pitchers signed last year. The ten highest

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Speaker 1: paid starting pitchers signed last year as free agents, only

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Speaker 1: four of them had a qualified season, which means they

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Speaker 1: threw one inning for each game or one hundred and

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Speaker 1: sixty two innings. Breakdowns all over the joint. I almost

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Speaker 1: feel like Joe. Teams have to build this in now

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Speaker 1: that you're not getting one hundred and sixty two innings

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Speaker 1: out of a pitcher, You're not getting years of regular

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Speaker 1: use out of these guys. Give me your take on

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Speaker 1: what's happening here with starting pitchers because they are pitching

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Speaker 1: with more rest than ever before and pitching shorter when

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Speaker 1: they get out there.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't that bag to the question why you're just you

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Speaker 2: just said that pretty much. Yeah, that's it for me.

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Speaker 2: It's simplistic. We're over protecting. I think it starts into

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Speaker 2: minor leagues. It's how you train these guys to begin with.

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Speaker 2: They're even their mindset. What do you what do you

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Speaker 2: want from these people? What do you want from a

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Speaker 2: starting pitcher? And permitting them to learn and grow that

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Speaker 2: they're turning through the batting order, stuff, number of pitches thrown,

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Speaker 2: innings in the minor leagues and just being in the

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Speaker 2: minor leagues in general for a longer period of time.

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Speaker 2: Everybody is so rushed to the major league level. And

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Speaker 2: then once you get there, obviously right now you should

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Speaker 2: have the best training methods ever, the best rehab methods ever,

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Speaker 2: the best everything ever.

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Speaker 3: It's all there.

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Speaker 2: But nevertheless we're still breaking down. So there's got to

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Speaker 2: it's got to be something at the at the bottom

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Speaker 2: of the food Chainer is something very simple that we're

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Speaker 2: really not applying. And and really it just comes down

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Speaker 2: to throwing. I'm this is not about me in any way,

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Speaker 2: shape or form, but as kids we threw and through

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Speaker 2: and through and through and nobody you know, when you're

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Speaker 2: on a store and you stop throwing, there's an ability

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Speaker 2: to build up the maintenance within your own arm just

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Speaker 2: by the act of throwing. Throwing a long toss so important.

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Speaker 2: It was with Mark Langston Langley one of the best

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Speaker 2: arms I've ever been around. And I think I've mentioned

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Speaker 2: this too before, but before on his workout day he

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Speaker 2: would play side piece, but he would throw long toss

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Speaker 2: before he got to the mound, and it would start

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Speaker 2: on the left field line at Anaheim Stadium, and he

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Speaker 2: threw the ball so far that I had to hit

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Speaker 2: a fungo to get it back to him and the

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Speaker 2: last throw would go over the right center field fence.

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Speaker 2: Was that was that strong and that far and likely,

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Speaker 2: you know, pretty much pitch without issues his whole career.

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Speaker 2: I just think we've gone the wrong way with all that.

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Speaker 2: And on top of that, it's just the the blind

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Speaker 2: acceptance for wanting to just throw the ball as hard

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Speaker 2: as we can from the very first pitch. Pitch ability,

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Speaker 2: throwing pitches, making pitches, getting outs early in counts, all

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Speaker 2: those things are not important anymore. It's just about the absolutes,

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Speaker 2: and that would be the strikeout to walk in the

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Speaker 2: homer and that's still going to be that way, and

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Speaker 2: we want to spin the ball high and throw it

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Speaker 2: as hard as you can. There's there are there's different

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Speaker 2: there's different things there. I believe that where it's not

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Speaker 2: going to change necessarily. I don't think it's going to change.

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Speaker 2: If you keep losing money like that, maybe it will,

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Speaker 2: but that's it. I think if we were just to

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Speaker 2: change the training methods in the minor leagues back to

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Speaker 2: a more aggressive, longer period of time training sessions there,

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Speaker 2: meaning more time spent in the minor leagues before you

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Speaker 2: get there, and when you get there, you should be

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Speaker 2: ready and learn how to pitch the third time through

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Speaker 2: by utilizing something different than you did the first two times.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is maybe an oversimplification, but I kind

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Speaker 2: of like oversimplifying things. I'd love to see somebody take

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Speaker 2: a chance at this and just pump the brakes on

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Speaker 2: this accelerated progress to the big schemes. Perfect example. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this guy obviously belonged there, but he's won a few.

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Speaker 2: I mean, other guys get there relatively quickly, and then

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden they become shooting stars as opposed

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Speaker 2: to rising stars, because they're flame burned so quickly and

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Speaker 2: bright and hot, and eventually he's put out.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know the quality start designation. Right, A pitcher

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Speaker 1: goes at least six innings, gives up no more than

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Speaker 1: three earned run. Now, it used to be people would

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Speaker 1: kind of pooh pooh that stat because they'd say, well,

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Speaker 1: that's essentially a four and a half era. Who wants

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Speaker 1: to brag about that? But man, that's a badge of honor.

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Speaker 1: Now if you go six and allow three earned runs

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Speaker 1: or less, well just even going six, You know, guys,

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Speaker 1: are puffing their chest out. I love surprising you with questions.

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Speaker 1: You have no idea of coming, Joe. So I'm going

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Speaker 1: to ask you, in a twenty twenty four season, what

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Speaker 1: percentage of starts do you believe where quality starts starting

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Speaker 1: pitcher goes at least six gives up no more than

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Speaker 1: three earned runs. What percentage thirty three percent? That's a

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Speaker 1: very good guess. It's actually thirty six percent. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: you should be proud of something that's not, you know,

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Speaker 1: done only basically one out of every three times. All right,

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Speaker 1: let's go back now just ten years. We don't have

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Speaker 1: to go back to the seventies when guys are throwing

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Speaker 1: three hundred ea things. Right, go back ten years, twenty

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Speaker 1: fourteen season. What do you think the percentage was then?

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Speaker 3: I'd say it was at least fifty percent. I'd say

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Speaker 3: I'll say, I'll say fifty five, sixty.

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Speaker 1: Percent, fifty four percent. So in ten years the percentage

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Speaker 1: of quality starts has gone from fifty four percent to

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Speaker 1: thirty six percent. I mean, that's that's a major change

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Speaker 1: in the game. That's giving so many more innings to

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Speaker 1: relieve pictures.

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Speaker 3: That's it. That's it.

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Speaker 2: Puem that's that's it. I mean, that's a it's a

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Speaker 2: shift in an implementation. What do we want here? What

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Speaker 2: are we trying to accomplish? It's there's a there's a

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Speaker 2: version of brainwashing involved with that too. Should be fifty

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Speaker 2: or more percent. It should be and it can be

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Speaker 2: again again, it's just about what you're teaching, what you're expecting,

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Speaker 2: what you're with the what are the expectations you're laying

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Speaker 2: out for the pictures themselves? And again, how are we

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Speaker 2: going to achieve this? Give me, give me a roadmap

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Speaker 2: on how to get this thing done here. And part

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Speaker 2: of it is like I'll just give James Shields as

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Speaker 2: an example. She was just to get upset with me

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Speaker 2: every John Lackey every time. But Lackey was older. But

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Speaker 2: Shieldsy hated coming out of games and he wanted to

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Speaker 2: pitch more deeply in the games. And I said, quite frankly,

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Speaker 2: you know when he hit a certain number, James, everything

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Speaker 2: seems to fall off a cliff.

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Speaker 3: And I'm nobody told me this.

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Speaker 2: I'm just watching because of my sheet always kept numbers

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Speaker 2: of pitches per inning, and then of course the totals,

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Speaker 2: et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And I told him, I says, well, oh wait, your

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Speaker 3: your your waterloo.

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Speaker 1: Man.

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Speaker 2: Every after everything after that is it. It goes downhill. And

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Speaker 2: he took it in stride, didn't like it, but did

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Speaker 2: something about it. And I never wanted to take Jim

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Speaker 2: James Shields. I mean, if he did six, like a

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Speaker 2: quality start, that would really upset him. It needed to

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Speaker 2: be more than that. It's a mindset, man, and whatever

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Speaker 2: we really push our young players' pitchers to do, if

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Speaker 2: you give them a challenge to do something more dramatic

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Speaker 2: like six plus seven, like I'd like you to get

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Speaker 2: that done in one hundred and one hundred and ten

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Speaker 2: twelve to fifteen pitches. That's that's your goal. And this

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Speaker 2: third time through, I want you to work very hard

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Speaker 2: as you're coming up to really become creative and understand

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Speaker 2: how to get hitters out the third time they've seen you.

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Speaker 2: This is the kind of conversation. It's not data explanation.

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Speaker 2: This is instinct and ability has to take over. And

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Speaker 2: that's that's what I would do, because there's no reason

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Speaker 2: why with all the training, the bodies, the strength, everything else,

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Speaker 2: that it's become less than as opposed to more than.

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Speaker 1: Well. Last year, talking about free agent starting pitchers. The

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Speaker 1: Royals and the Mets really did well. I mean the

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Speaker 1: Royals with Seth Lugo and Michael Waka found themselves in

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Speaker 1: the postseason. The Mets with Jean Manaya and Luis Severino

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Speaker 1: found themselves in the postseason kind of under the radar,

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Speaker 1: if you will, certainly cheap signings without a lot of

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Speaker 1: length to those contracts. So teams are going to look

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Speaker 1: to replicate that this off season. So Jo going to

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Speaker 1: make you my president of Baseball Operations and give you

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Speaker 1: the field now, so to speak, what's still out there

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Speaker 1: free agent wise on the market. I'm going to divide

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Speaker 1: them up into a couple of different categories.

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Speaker 3: Here.

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Speaker 1: I'll start with the top of the market, which is

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Speaker 1: Corbyn Burns and Max Freed. You've got the older pitchers

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Speaker 1: still looking probably for one year deals, Justin Verlander, Max Scherzer,

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Speaker 1: Charlie Morton. And then you have that next tier, that

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Speaker 1: second tier below the t guys Nathan Evaldi, Jack Flaherty,

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Speaker 1: Jean Manaiah Walker, Buehler, Jane Bieber, and Luis Severino. So

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Speaker 1: I'm giving you a budget, unlimited budget. Where do you

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Speaker 1: want to go in this free agent feel what's left

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Speaker 1: out there.

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Speaker 2: Joe, beyond the names and beyond whatever. I would look

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Speaker 2: for two things. Something to prove in health. I mean,

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Speaker 2: these guys that really feel like they have something to prove,

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Speaker 2: yet they're really motivated. Like you took Severino and Manea

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Speaker 2: from last year as an example, Seth Lugo really motivate

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Speaker 2: it to become starters, improve things, prove people that to

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Speaker 2: people that listen, I'm a little bit better than your thought.

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Speaker 2: And that's really what really great athletes love to do.

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Speaker 2: People that feel as though they've been slided a bit

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Speaker 2: or not really appreciate it, but they want to go

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Speaker 2: out there the proverbial chip on the shoulder. That's what

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Speaker 2: I would look at if I'm trying to evaluate this,

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Speaker 2: I would as a front office type, I would look there.

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Speaker 2: That would be part of it for me. When you

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Speaker 2: talk about Waka and Lugo specifically, I've always liked Logo.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, it was always amazed that the Mets

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Speaker 2: didn't use him even more when they had him back

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Speaker 2: in the day and when he became a starter. I

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Speaker 2: thought that was a wonderful IDEA. Walk, on the other hand,

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Speaker 2: was not good in Saint Louis from me. He started

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Speaker 2: out great, went the other way, then all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden changed his method of pitching. He just became sharper

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Speaker 2: with his command. The changeup became really good or the

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Speaker 2: split whatever that is. And all of a sudden, this

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Speaker 2: guy started to become better. And even his attitude on

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Speaker 2: the mound, his ability to control situations, I thought observationally

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Speaker 2: became better. So to me, just as a visual scout,

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Speaker 2: not looking at that or whatever else, these guys were

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Speaker 2: appealing to me based on that. So look again, the

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Speaker 2: names I can't remember specifically all the names that you

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Speaker 2: just said.

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Speaker 3: However, I would look into this.

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Speaker 2: I'd get my group together and we're talking about, Okay,

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Speaker 2: among these guys, who do you feel is really motivated

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Speaker 2: to prove them something? And among these guys who do

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Speaker 2: we deem to be the most healthy because they've had success,

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Speaker 2: they're established major league pictures in a sense.

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Speaker 3: So if we're going to bet on one of these.

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Speaker 2: Guys or two of these, are three of these guys

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Speaker 2: really turning it on and coming back to another level,

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Speaker 2: who would that be? I would use those ideas or

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Speaker 2: thoughts as a criterion and regarding to how I'm going

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Speaker 2: to evaluate this group.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for me, I'm gonna start with Corbyn Burns. To me,

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Speaker 1: he's the top of the market. The price is going

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Speaker 1: to be really high. I get that, but he's one

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Speaker 1: of the few pitchers who has been durable in the

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Speaker 1: last four years. I think he's second in strikeouts. He's

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Speaker 1: up there at the innings pitched, he takes the ball.

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Speaker 1: He's a competitor. My guess is he's gonna wind up

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Speaker 1: on the West Coast somewhere where he's from. We'll see.

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Speaker 1: And I liked what you were saying, Joe, about guys

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Speaker 1: who want to prove something. And I have no idea

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Speaker 1: what the medicals look like, but I would take a

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Speaker 1: flyer on Shane Bieber for that reason. He's been one

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Speaker 1: of the best pitchers in the game, like Michael Waka

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Speaker 1: and like Sean Manaya. He's a very good teammate. I

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Speaker 1: think he has the ability to make younger pitchers better

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Speaker 1: by you just work habits, coaching them up, being there

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Speaker 1: for them. I just like his makeup. And again I

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Speaker 1: don't know what the medical look like. You have to

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Speaker 1: start with that when you take a flyer on somebody,

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Speaker 1: but I like that profile. You established Joe somebody who

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Speaker 1: has something to prove, and he's been at the top,

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Speaker 1: and you know he's a competitor, and you know he

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Speaker 1: wants to get back there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I'm tinking. It goes beyond all these other

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Speaker 2: numerical concepts. You know, you just gather as much information

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Speaker 2: as you possibly can, and then you've got to trust

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Speaker 2: yourself a little bit here too. He's got to be

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Speaker 2: a version of baseball acumen, history in your in your heart,

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Speaker 2: your gut, your mind. You've got to be able to

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Speaker 2: rely on these things.

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Speaker 3: And so for me, like.

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Speaker 2: I said, watching Lugo's success and walka success did not

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Speaker 2: surprise me in the least based on observation in your

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Speaker 2: descriptions right there, Bieber and Birds, I mean, I saw

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Speaker 2: Burns last year. It just seemed a little bit off

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Speaker 2: to me. Some of the games I saw not as

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Speaker 2: sharp as he happened. But he will be as long

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Speaker 2: as he's health. He's going to show that again. For

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Speaker 2: whatever reason, it wasn't as top dog as he had been.

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Speaker 2: And Bieber, on the other hand, I mean, this guy, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's been as good as there's been over the last

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Speaker 2: several years. So there's a perfect examples. But at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, man, this is where I think

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Speaker 2: true scouting acumen helps a lot eyeballs. People that really

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Speaker 2: know what they're looking at and have like this disability

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Speaker 2: to reflect and compare and contrast. That would be a

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Speaker 2: big part of this evaluation process for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I also like guys who throw strikes, you command

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Speaker 1: the baseball, and those two guys stand out to me.

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Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned sometimes these teams work up cocktails

396
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Speaker 1: in terms of pitch mixes. I get that it definitely

397
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Speaker 1: can be a huge turning point for a lot of pitchers.

398
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Speaker 1: But when it comes to getting a guy to throw

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Speaker 1: more strikes, that's a little bit harder for me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like trying to ask a hitter to stop

401
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Speaker 2: striking out or accept more walks.

402
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Speaker 3: It's, you know, this is who you are.

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Speaker 2: It's the spots you got, the spots on a leopard,

404
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Speaker 2: at your zits, that's your acne, it's your all these

405
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Speaker 2: different things that are just not perfect. So it's hard

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Speaker 2: to change those things. It really is just to think

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Speaker 2: you're going to snap your fingers and you're going to

408
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Speaker 2: have come up with this equation or formula. It might

409
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Speaker 2: happen once in a while. But I'm telling you, as

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Speaker 2: a hitting coach, I would try to it's easier. I

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Speaker 2: always thought to try to get guys a strike out

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Speaker 2: less as opposed to accepting more walks. When it comes

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Speaker 2: down to throwing strikes or striking people out, it depends

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Speaker 2: on whether they're at developmentally, how old they are, their delivery,

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Speaker 2: if you can make some corrections there. But for the

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Speaker 2: most part, man, our personalities are Our personalities or ability

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Speaker 2: to throw strikes are pretty much the same on our

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Speaker 2: ability to control the strikes own is the same from

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Speaker 2: the time you're probably fourteen fifteen, sixteen years old.

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Speaker 1: Well, we don't know what's going to happen at the

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Speaker 1: Winter Meetings. My guest is we probably will get a

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Speaker 1: Wan Soto signing by the end of the Winter Meetings.

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Speaker 1: I'm still expecting that to be the New York Mets.

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Speaker 1: They seem to be the leader in the clubhouse. But

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Speaker 1: we'll see how that plays out. By no means is

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Speaker 1: that over. But one thing we know Joe's going to

427
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Speaker 1: happen at the Winter Meetings is there'll be a meeting

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Speaker 1: on Sunday night. Sixteen people walk into a room and

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Speaker 1: decide among six candidates who if anybody belongs in the

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Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. We'll talk about that vote and who

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Speaker 1: is up for a lo election. Right after this Sunday night,

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Speaker 1: at the Winter Meetings, the Classic Baseball Committee will meet

433
00:20:21,838 --> 00:20:25,798
Speaker 1: at sixteen people, a group of Hall of Famers, executives

434
00:20:26,038 --> 00:20:29,718
Speaker 1: and veteran media members, to discuss eight candidates on the ballot.

435
00:20:30,318 --> 00:20:33,598
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean anybody's guaranteed to get in. To carry

436
00:20:33,638 --> 00:20:35,758
Speaker 1: the day, you need twelve out of the sixteen votes.

437
00:20:36,038 --> 00:20:38,878
Speaker 1: The voters can vote for zero if they want, but

438
00:20:39,038 --> 00:20:42,638
Speaker 1: no more than three. So the way the math worked out,

439
00:20:42,638 --> 00:20:44,958
Speaker 1: the last couple of years when these committees met, we

440
00:20:45,078 --> 00:20:48,358
Speaker 1: got one each time. Before that, we were getting on

441
00:20:48,478 --> 00:20:51,198
Speaker 1: average a little more than two. But they changed the

442
00:20:51,278 --> 00:20:54,678
Speaker 1: voting rules. They made the ballot smaller and thus have

443
00:20:54,958 --> 00:20:57,558
Speaker 1: fewer choices to make voting for three instead of four.

444
00:20:58,398 --> 00:21:00,438
Speaker 1: So the last two years, that's the way that Fred

445
00:21:00,518 --> 00:21:03,758
Speaker 1: McGriff and Jim Leland got their path to the Hall

446
00:21:03,798 --> 00:21:06,998
Speaker 1: of Fame. I want to go through the candidates this year, Joe,

447
00:21:06,998 --> 00:21:10,118
Speaker 1: because I think it's really, really, it's always difficult. I've

448
00:21:10,118 --> 00:21:12,878
Speaker 1: been in those rooms and I can just tell you

449
00:21:12,958 --> 00:21:17,638
Speaker 1: it's the integrity of the process should not be in question.

450
00:21:18,318 --> 00:21:21,198
Speaker 1: There's a frank discussion. It's all behind closed doors, it's

451
00:21:21,198 --> 00:21:24,038
Speaker 1: all off the record. Everybody gets a fair shake in

452
00:21:24,078 --> 00:21:27,118
Speaker 1: that room. I don't believe that there are favorites going

453
00:21:27,158 --> 00:21:29,878
Speaker 1: in the way some media members like to portray it.

454
00:21:30,038 --> 00:21:32,118
Speaker 1: Things just happened. Like a jury room. You get in

455
00:21:32,158 --> 00:21:33,918
Speaker 1: there and you talk about each guy, and then you

456
00:21:33,958 --> 00:21:37,198
Speaker 1: start getting favorites. So let's talk about people on the ballot,

457
00:21:37,198 --> 00:21:39,398
Speaker 1: and I'll go alphabetically here. I'm got to start with

458
00:21:39,478 --> 00:21:42,798
Speaker 1: Dick Allen. Dick Allen, Joe had an amazing career. Maybe

459
00:21:42,838 --> 00:21:45,878
Speaker 1: he didn't play as long or in terms of injuries,

460
00:21:46,278 --> 00:21:49,798
Speaker 1: had some shortened seasons. But I remember Goose Gossage telling

461
00:21:49,838 --> 00:21:51,878
Speaker 1: me that Dick Allen was the best player he ever

462
00:21:51,918 --> 00:21:55,758
Speaker 1: played with. And Goose Gossage played like forever, play on

463
00:21:55,838 --> 00:21:58,318
Speaker 1: great teams with a lot of great players. I think

464
00:21:58,358 --> 00:22:00,638
Speaker 1: he's been underrated and over the course of history. You're

465
00:22:00,678 --> 00:22:03,518
Speaker 1: an Eastern PA guy, I'm sure you've got great memories

466
00:22:03,518 --> 00:22:03,758
Speaker 1: of Dick.

467
00:22:04,558 --> 00:22:08,078
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I vote yes. He was one of

468
00:22:08,118 --> 00:22:11,318
Speaker 2: my all time favorites. Also, someone in the Phillies in

469
00:22:11,318 --> 00:22:13,318
Speaker 2: the early sixties hit the line drive off the right

470
00:22:13,358 --> 00:22:16,158
Speaker 2: center field scoreboard against Steve Carlton. I don't even know

471
00:22:16,198 --> 00:22:19,398
Speaker 2: sixty whatever that was. Got to visit with him once

472
00:22:19,478 --> 00:22:21,998
Speaker 2: before a game in Quad Cities. I was hitting coach.

473
00:22:21,998 --> 00:22:24,638
Speaker 2: There was sitting in the stands doing my notes, and

474
00:22:25,358 --> 00:22:27,478
Speaker 2: Dec Allen sitting behind me in the uniform.

475
00:22:27,518 --> 00:22:28,278
Speaker 3: We started talking.

476
00:22:28,318 --> 00:22:30,958
Speaker 2: He was there for some kind of a All Star

477
00:22:30,998 --> 00:22:34,078
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame kind of a thing, and God did

478
00:22:34,118 --> 00:22:37,278
Speaker 2: other my conversation with him. One of the most third hitters,

479
00:22:38,398 --> 00:22:42,318
Speaker 2: great hitters, great athlete hit so many things well, scary

480
00:22:42,358 --> 00:22:44,878
Speaker 2: as hell. I mean, this guy, God, he's this big

481
00:22:44,918 --> 00:22:48,158
Speaker 2: old bat and the ball just whistled off and just

482
00:22:48,278 --> 00:22:51,598
Speaker 2: pure entertainment. Watching him hit was absolutely entertaining as hell.

483
00:22:52,638 --> 00:22:55,358
Speaker 2: Had his moments where he bought some different things in

484
00:22:55,398 --> 00:22:57,638
Speaker 2: the dirt and Conny Maac Stadium, but people were getting

485
00:22:57,638 --> 00:22:57,838
Speaker 2: on it.

486
00:22:57,958 --> 00:23:00,838
Speaker 3: But up and down, man, I'm all about this guy.

487
00:23:01,158 --> 00:23:04,998
Speaker 2: Power, hitting ability, hitting better pictures too. He wore I

488
00:23:04,998 --> 00:23:06,798
Speaker 2: guess him and Nolan Ryan, and he did pretty well.

489
00:23:06,838 --> 00:23:08,878
Speaker 2: I think it was Nolan Ryan that he gave a

490
00:23:08,918 --> 00:23:12,958
Speaker 2: hard time too. All about dick out, I'd absolutely say yes.

491
00:23:12,998 --> 00:23:15,038
Speaker 2: I don't know the exact numbers, I know they're really good.

492
00:23:15,438 --> 00:23:17,478
Speaker 2: But to me, this guy was as dangerous a hitter

493
00:23:17,518 --> 00:23:19,838
Speaker 2: as there was at that in that period of time,

494
00:23:19,878 --> 00:23:22,678
Speaker 2: and one of the most misunderstood guys. Because everybody that

495
00:23:22,758 --> 00:23:26,838
Speaker 2: I've met that knew him and my personal conversations with him,

496
00:23:26,958 --> 00:23:28,398
Speaker 2: it was absolutely wonderful.

497
00:23:28,838 --> 00:23:31,678
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, listen, no one really can relate to

498
00:23:31,718 --> 00:23:34,918
Speaker 1: what he went through. As you know, one of the first,

499
00:23:34,958 --> 00:23:37,638
Speaker 1: if not the first black stars for the Philadelphia Phillies.

500
00:23:37,918 --> 00:23:40,958
Speaker 1: They actually sent him as a youngster to Triple A

501
00:23:41,198 --> 00:23:45,118
Speaker 1: to Little Rock, Arkansas and he was the first black player,

502
00:23:45,158 --> 00:23:48,238
Speaker 1: so he integrated the Arkansas team, the Little Rock team

503
00:23:48,278 --> 00:23:50,398
Speaker 1: in Arkansas. Wow, I mean, just think about that. So

504
00:23:50,438 --> 00:23:53,918
Speaker 1: when you talk about, you know, not getting along with managers,

505
00:23:53,918 --> 00:23:57,318
Speaker 1: front office fans. He mentioned the way he would write

506
00:23:57,358 --> 00:23:59,318
Speaker 1: words in the dirt. You have to think about the

507
00:23:59,318 --> 00:24:02,878
Speaker 1: context of the early sixties and even seventies and what

508
00:24:02,918 --> 00:24:04,438
Speaker 1: that man faced well.

509
00:24:04,318 --> 00:24:05,318
Speaker 3: Little Rock Arkansas.

510
00:24:05,398 --> 00:24:07,398
Speaker 2: As a manager in the Texas League, I had a

511
00:24:07,438 --> 00:24:11,438
Speaker 2: really bad experience there protecting some of my black players

512
00:24:11,478 --> 00:24:14,558
Speaker 2: on that team, quite frankly, and that was nineteen eighty five,

513
00:24:14,638 --> 00:24:16,518
Speaker 2: I think it was eighty five, eighty six something in there,

514
00:24:16,558 --> 00:24:18,838
Speaker 2: So I can't even imagine what he went through with

515
00:24:18,918 --> 00:24:22,078
Speaker 2: that particular juncture in his career. Yeah, listen, I'm just

516
00:24:22,078 --> 00:24:24,878
Speaker 2: saying purely on baseball ability. And he's from like a

517
00:24:24,958 --> 00:24:28,398
Speaker 2: swamp on PA, which was out west in western Pennsylvania.

518
00:24:28,758 --> 00:24:30,798
Speaker 2: So much respectful what these guys did and how they

519
00:24:30,838 --> 00:24:34,118
Speaker 2: did it, and eventually, you know, turn into the people

520
00:24:34,158 --> 00:24:34,758
Speaker 2: that they did.

521
00:24:35,518 --> 00:24:36,918
Speaker 3: He just belongs there.

522
00:24:36,958 --> 00:24:41,998
Speaker 2: He's it's from his fiscal attributes, his abilities, the road

523
00:24:42,038 --> 00:24:45,118
Speaker 2: that he took to get there, how he survived through

524
00:24:45,158 --> 00:24:47,398
Speaker 2: all of that. He did upset some people, but they're like,

525
00:24:47,438 --> 00:24:50,878
Speaker 2: you're suggesting us put in the same situation. We may

526
00:24:50,878 --> 00:24:52,798
Speaker 2: have reacted in the same way. We don't know that.

527
00:24:53,278 --> 00:24:54,998
Speaker 2: But Dick Allen to me is a Hall of Fame

528
00:24:55,078 --> 00:24:58,398
Speaker 2: baseball player with that kind of ability, and hopefully that

529
00:24:58,438 --> 00:25:00,478
Speaker 2: it does occur because I'm a big, big fan.

530
00:25:00,918 --> 00:25:03,878
Speaker 1: Yeah, Dick Allen is one of only four hitters who

531
00:25:04,158 --> 00:25:06,558
Speaker 1: not in the Hall of Fame who has a career

532
00:25:06,718 --> 00:25:10,798
Speaker 1: adjusted OPS, which takes into consideration, you know, the hitting

533
00:25:10,918 --> 00:25:12,678
Speaker 1: environment at the time in the parks that you played

534
00:25:12,718 --> 00:25:16,358
Speaker 1: in of one fifty or better over at least seventeen

535
00:25:16,438 --> 00:25:20,078
Speaker 1: hundred games. The other three, the only other three not

536
00:25:20,158 --> 00:25:23,318
Speaker 1: in the Hall of fame with those thresholds are Barry Bonds,

537
00:25:23,598 --> 00:25:27,238
Speaker 1: Mark McGuire, and Manny Ramirez. And you know what they

538
00:25:27,238 --> 00:25:27,998
Speaker 1: all have in common.

539
00:25:28,718 --> 00:25:29,998
Speaker 3: That's that's pretty impressed.

540
00:25:29,998 --> 00:25:32,278
Speaker 2: I of course you do some great research, but I

541
00:25:32,318 --> 00:25:33,158
Speaker 2: didn't realize that.

542
00:25:33,238 --> 00:25:34,438
Speaker 3: But I just know what I saw.

543
00:25:34,518 --> 00:25:38,678
Speaker 2: Man, this guy was he was when the Orlando Cepaida

544
00:25:38,918 --> 00:25:41,638
Speaker 2: and Dick Allen are my two favorite Major league hitters

545
00:25:41,638 --> 00:25:42,558
Speaker 2: as a kid growing up.

546
00:25:42,918 --> 00:25:45,398
Speaker 1: You were also a Cardinals fan growing up. And there's

547
00:25:45,438 --> 00:25:48,958
Speaker 1: a one of the most consistent Cardinals ever on this ballot.

548
00:25:48,998 --> 00:25:53,598
Speaker 1: That's Ken Boyer, one of the most reliable players that

549
00:25:53,638 --> 00:25:57,198
Speaker 1: you could have, nineteen sixty four MVP and probably the

550
00:25:57,838 --> 00:26:01,198
Speaker 1: best defensive third basement in the National League in his prime.

551
00:26:01,398 --> 00:26:03,038
Speaker 3: And his brother was the best, one of the best

552
00:26:03,038 --> 00:26:04,398
Speaker 3: in the American League. I mean, Kim Boy.

553
00:26:04,398 --> 00:26:06,238
Speaker 2: He had a Grand Slam in that World Series. I

554
00:26:06,238 --> 00:26:08,038
Speaker 2: think the Cardinals won four to three based on his

555
00:26:08,078 --> 00:26:11,558
Speaker 2: Grand Slam in New York City. I believe that's accurate. Yeah, listen,

556
00:26:11,918 --> 00:26:14,438
Speaker 2: that whole Cardinal group in sixty four, they wore the

557
00:26:14,558 --> 00:26:19,638
Speaker 2: All Star infield. It was him, Maxville, Leon, Javier Bill White,

558
00:26:19,878 --> 00:26:23,118
Speaker 2: with Carver and of course Brock and Flood in the outfit.

559
00:26:23,118 --> 00:26:24,878
Speaker 2: I think shn It might have been playing right field

560
00:26:24,878 --> 00:26:27,638
Speaker 2: at that time. Then, of course their entire pitching staff,

561
00:26:27,638 --> 00:26:29,398
Speaker 2: but ken Bore was number fourteen.

562
00:26:29,478 --> 00:26:30,638
Speaker 3: Always one of my favorites.

563
00:26:30,998 --> 00:26:32,638
Speaker 2: You know, this is the thing I get to listen

564
00:26:32,638 --> 00:26:34,878
Speaker 2: on the radio, listened to km O X, listen to

565
00:26:34,918 --> 00:26:37,358
Speaker 2: Harry Carey and Jack Buck speak about him all the time.

566
00:26:37,398 --> 00:26:38,518
Speaker 3: They never got to see him.

567
00:26:38,358 --> 00:26:42,558
Speaker 2: Play, but a huge fan, steady guy from from what

568
00:26:42,678 --> 00:26:45,878
Speaker 2: I read. Also, and gosh, there's a compelling argument for

569
00:26:45,958 --> 00:26:48,198
Speaker 2: him too. I think Dick Allen played some third base,

570
00:26:48,238 --> 00:26:52,198
Speaker 2: two first base. Kenny Bore outstanding third basement and like

571
00:26:52,238 --> 00:26:54,478
Speaker 2: you said, heritage wise, him and his brother were two

572
00:26:54,478 --> 00:26:54,918
Speaker 2: of the best.

573
00:26:55,318 --> 00:26:55,558
Speaker 3: Yeah.

574
00:26:55,638 --> 00:26:58,318
Speaker 1: From in nine seasons from fifty six to sixty four,

575
00:26:59,118 --> 00:27:02,198
Speaker 1: he drove in ninety runs eight times, made seven All

576
00:27:02,198 --> 00:27:05,358
Speaker 1: Star teams, and won five Gold Glow. And in that

577
00:27:05,478 --> 00:27:09,038
Speaker 1: stretch he obviously won the sixty four MVP. He may

578
00:27:09,118 --> 00:27:12,278
Speaker 1: have an uphill climb. To me, his numbers are very

579
00:27:12,278 --> 00:27:15,678
Speaker 1: similar to Robin Ventura, and he's actually behind Greg Nettles

580
00:27:15,678 --> 00:27:17,558
Speaker 1: and Buddy Bell as far as third baseman when it

581
00:27:17,598 --> 00:27:21,518
Speaker 1: comes to war and total bases. But his consistency, I

582
00:27:21,558 --> 00:27:26,278
Speaker 1: think certainly it deserves a long discussion. Now here's where

583
00:27:26,278 --> 00:27:28,238
Speaker 1: it gets difficult. Joe I mentioned that these guys have

584
00:27:28,278 --> 00:27:31,438
Speaker 1: at gals have a very difficult assignment here because you

585
00:27:31,518 --> 00:27:34,118
Speaker 1: mentioned Dick Allen played some third base, a sort of

586
00:27:34,158 --> 00:27:36,478
Speaker 1: a contemporary of Ken Boyer. You can sort of go

587
00:27:36,558 --> 00:27:39,918
Speaker 1: head to head with those two. But we're talking about

588
00:27:39,918 --> 00:27:42,438
Speaker 1: a ballot in which, you know, one player began in

589
00:27:42,558 --> 00:27:46,278
Speaker 1: nineteen oh eight and another finished in nineteen ninety one.

590
00:27:46,798 --> 00:27:49,558
Speaker 1: And we've got pitchers, we've got position players, so it's

591
00:27:49,598 --> 00:27:53,318
Speaker 1: not all apples to apples. I'm going next to John Donaldson.

592
00:27:53,678 --> 00:27:58,118
Speaker 1: His career actually predated the Negro League's organization in nineteen twenty,

593
00:27:58,278 --> 00:28:00,198
Speaker 1: so he started out in nineteen oh eight. He's a

594
00:28:00,278 --> 00:28:04,598
Speaker 1: left handed pitcher and he played. He did event get

595
00:28:04,598 --> 00:28:06,838
Speaker 1: to the Negro leagues. He pitched for a long time,

596
00:28:07,438 --> 00:28:09,598
Speaker 1: but he pitched for a lot of barnstorming teams. He

597
00:28:09,638 --> 00:28:12,398
Speaker 1: pitched for a lot of semi pro teams. He was

598
00:28:12,438 --> 00:28:18,318
Speaker 1: a very popular pitcher. He's prolific and people would call

599
00:28:18,438 --> 00:28:22,158
Speaker 1: him famous, famous John Donaldson like he pitched all the time.

600
00:28:22,158 --> 00:28:25,198
Speaker 1: He actually provided the path that Satchel Page would follow,

601
00:28:25,638 --> 00:28:28,678
Speaker 1: where you know these guys were drawing cards. They put

602
00:28:28,718 --> 00:28:33,198
Speaker 1: barnstorming teams around the country and phil places as they played.

603
00:28:34,158 --> 00:28:36,998
Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty two, the Pittsburgh Courier had a poll

604
00:28:37,038 --> 00:28:39,358
Speaker 1: and they pulled the Negro League players at the time

605
00:28:39,558 --> 00:28:41,838
Speaker 1: and they asked them to put together the first all

606
00:28:41,878 --> 00:28:44,958
Speaker 1: time Negro League's team. He was on that team. John

607
00:28:44,998 --> 00:28:46,958
Speaker 1: Donaldson was a pitcher on that team. And he's one

608
00:28:46,998 --> 00:28:50,278
Speaker 1: of only three players who was picked by players by

609
00:28:50,278 --> 00:28:52,198
Speaker 1: his peers to be on the all time Negro Leagues

610
00:28:52,238 --> 00:28:53,878
Speaker 1: team who is not in the Hall of Fame yet.

611
00:28:54,478 --> 00:28:58,598
Speaker 1: So it's a difficult case because we don't have complete statistics,

612
00:28:58,998 --> 00:29:01,558
Speaker 1: but there's certainly an argument here for someone who gave

613
00:29:01,598 --> 00:29:02,518
Speaker 1: so much to the game.

614
00:29:03,158 --> 00:29:03,878
Speaker 3: Is it even fair?

615
00:29:04,238 --> 00:29:05,998
Speaker 2: I mean, to include him with the names that we

616
00:29:06,038 --> 00:29:10,398
Speaker 2: know more about the more contemporary group is almost like this.

617
00:29:11,118 --> 00:29:14,918
Speaker 2: People like him belong in an absolutely separate category. There's

618
00:29:14,958 --> 00:29:17,558
Speaker 2: really no way. I mean, like, I just able to

619
00:29:17,758 --> 00:29:22,478
Speaker 2: rattle off stuff about Dick Gallen, Ken Boyer, Little Rock, Arkansas.

620
00:29:22,518 --> 00:29:26,238
Speaker 2: You know, in my existence, John Donaldson, I've obviously never

621
00:29:26,238 --> 00:29:29,438
Speaker 2: even heard about the guy. But what you're saying sounds magnificent.

622
00:29:29,518 --> 00:29:32,678
Speaker 2: So I just think it requires a different criterion to

623
00:29:32,798 --> 00:29:35,558
Speaker 2: establish whether or not the guy belongs there, and he's

624
00:29:35,558 --> 00:29:38,478
Speaker 2: got to be set up against a different group and

625
00:29:38,558 --> 00:29:42,838
Speaker 2: almost a group study the people that may induct him

626
00:29:43,318 --> 00:29:46,518
Speaker 2: to really, you know, spend time in trying to research

627
00:29:46,558 --> 00:29:49,478
Speaker 2: this at the point where they could speak of him

628
00:29:49,598 --> 00:29:52,638
Speaker 2: as though I just extemporaneously spoke about it Dick Gallen.

629
00:29:53,118 --> 00:29:55,478
Speaker 2: So I don't have any clear answers on that, except

630
00:29:55,558 --> 00:29:58,158
Speaker 2: I do believe something like that should not be compared

631
00:29:58,198 --> 00:30:00,838
Speaker 2: to the guys that more recent and that a separate

632
00:30:00,838 --> 00:30:04,358
Speaker 2: committee should be set up just for people from that particular.

633
00:30:04,398 --> 00:30:07,198
Speaker 1: Well, let's get back to a contemporary of Dick Allens.

634
00:30:07,198 --> 00:30:13,118
Speaker 1: That's Steve Garvey. Steve Garvey had he polled forty percent

635
00:30:13,438 --> 00:30:15,838
Speaker 1: in the first time he was on the writer's ballot.

636
00:30:15,878 --> 00:30:18,278
Speaker 1: He's the only one who debuted on the ballot at

637
00:30:18,278 --> 00:30:20,798
Speaker 1: that kind of a number and was not elected. In fact,

638
00:30:21,198 --> 00:30:26,078
Speaker 1: his support went down over the years. People forget I think,

639
00:30:26,118 --> 00:30:28,678
Speaker 1: who didn't watch Steve Garvey player be around it. He

640
00:30:28,798 --> 00:30:32,798
Speaker 1: was one of the most famous and accomplished baseball players

641
00:30:32,838 --> 00:30:35,598
Speaker 1: of his generation, and he's also one of the all

642
00:30:35,598 --> 00:30:39,358
Speaker 1: time greatest postseason hitters. From seventy four to eighty one.

643
00:30:40,198 --> 00:30:43,238
Speaker 1: Garby made the All Star team every year, He received

644
00:30:43,398 --> 00:30:46,798
Speaker 1: MVP votes every year, was named the MVP of the

645
00:30:46,798 --> 00:30:50,638
Speaker 1: All Star Game the National League. In the NLCS, when

646
00:30:50,678 --> 00:30:53,598
Speaker 1: four gold Gloves played in three World Series, had more

647
00:30:53,638 --> 00:30:57,558
Speaker 1: total bases than any hitter in baseball over that period.

648
00:30:58,238 --> 00:31:00,558
Speaker 1: And that's when he began his streak, which still stands

649
00:31:00,598 --> 00:31:02,918
Speaker 1: as a National League record of more than twelve hundred

650
00:31:02,998 --> 00:31:06,918
Speaker 1: consecutive game. And I mentioned the postseason. His career batting

651
00:31:06,958 --> 00:31:10,998
Speaker 1: average is three thirty eight. Only one player who came

652
00:31:10,998 --> 00:31:12,598
Speaker 1: to the play one hundred and fifty times in the

653
00:31:12,598 --> 00:31:15,118
Speaker 1: postseason has a higher batting average in the postseason, and

654
00:31:15,118 --> 00:31:18,678
Speaker 1: that's Louke Gerrig. Steve Garvey, though Joe, is a case

655
00:31:18,718 --> 00:31:23,438
Speaker 1: where people have applied retroactively some of the hallmarks of

656
00:31:23,518 --> 00:31:26,798
Speaker 1: analytics to his playing career. Steve Garvey, his career was

657
00:31:26,838 --> 00:31:29,918
Speaker 1: based on putting the ball in play, driving in runs,

658
00:31:30,718 --> 00:31:34,318
Speaker 1: and being there every day. Right, those things have been devalued.

659
00:31:34,638 --> 00:31:36,958
Speaker 1: What he did not do was he didn't walk. He

660
00:31:36,998 --> 00:31:40,118
Speaker 1: didn't hit a lot of power for a first basement,

661
00:31:40,558 --> 00:31:43,078
Speaker 1: so the rate stats are not kind to him. So

662
00:31:43,238 --> 00:31:46,318
Speaker 1: Steve Garvey, I think in retrospect, looking at his career,

663
00:31:46,318 --> 00:31:48,958
Speaker 1: what we know about analytics doesn't shine as much as

664
00:31:48,958 --> 00:31:51,118
Speaker 1: he did when he was actually playing. Give me your

665
00:31:51,118 --> 00:31:52,198
Speaker 1: thoughts on Steve Garvey.

666
00:31:53,198 --> 00:31:55,518
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, listen, he was a great player, a

667
00:31:55,838 --> 00:31:58,158
Speaker 2: good felt like. I've gotten to know Steve a little bit,

668
00:31:58,758 --> 00:32:01,798
Speaker 2: and everything you say there really describes as a winning

669
00:32:01,838 --> 00:32:04,158
Speaker 2: baseball player, you know, somebody that you really want on

670
00:32:04,198 --> 00:32:07,918
Speaker 2: your team, especially those Dodgers groups in that particular era,

671
00:32:09,038 --> 00:32:11,118
Speaker 2: moving the baseball, putting it in play, with all the

672
00:32:11,958 --> 00:32:14,358
Speaker 2: different attributes they have, the speed, guys head on their team,

673
00:32:14,438 --> 00:32:17,598
Speaker 2: the kind of baseball that the Dodgers played, it's almost

674
00:32:17,638 --> 00:32:21,398
Speaker 2: like describing like a for a baseball player, a guy

675
00:32:21,438 --> 00:32:23,758
Speaker 2: that's like such a he's better than a Triple A player,

676
00:32:23,798 --> 00:32:26,118
Speaker 2: but he's not quite a Major leaguer. And like with

677
00:32:26,238 --> 00:32:28,198
Speaker 2: Steve Garby, you're talking about somebody I think that was

678
00:32:28,238 --> 00:32:30,638
Speaker 2: a really very good major League baseball player, but not

679
00:32:30,758 --> 00:32:33,318
Speaker 2: quite the Hall of Famer. Just he's the kind of

680
00:32:33,318 --> 00:32:37,038
Speaker 2: guy you want on your team to win. But you know,

681
00:32:37,078 --> 00:32:40,078
Speaker 2: the Hall of Fame's looking for like over the top

682
00:32:40,878 --> 00:32:44,838
Speaker 2: production and numbers in different categories, and I just think

683
00:32:44,838 --> 00:32:46,638
Speaker 2: he might fall short there a little bit. But as

684
00:32:46,678 --> 00:32:49,918
Speaker 2: a baseball player. You absolutely wanted him on your team,

685
00:32:49,998 --> 00:32:51,838
Speaker 2: and he's going to be a winning kind of player.

686
00:32:52,398 --> 00:32:54,798
Speaker 2: And that's how I look at Steve Garvey as a

687
00:32:54,798 --> 00:32:56,478
Speaker 2: winning kind of baseball player.

688
00:32:56,678 --> 00:32:59,158
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess, especially in the power department, it's hard

689
00:32:59,158 --> 00:33:02,078
Speaker 1: to measure him against Dick Allen and our next candidate,

690
00:33:02,318 --> 00:33:05,998
Speaker 1: Dave Parker. There's no question there was probably a twelve

691
00:33:06,078 --> 00:33:08,438
Speaker 1: year period there where Dave Parker was among the best

692
00:33:08,758 --> 00:33:11,118
Speaker 1: all around players in the game. Wasn't just the power,

693
00:33:11,278 --> 00:33:13,238
Speaker 1: it was the defense, it was the ability to hit

694
00:33:13,278 --> 00:33:16,078
Speaker 1: for average. He went back to back batting titles, three

695
00:33:16,118 --> 00:33:20,238
Speaker 1: goal gloves, six All Star Games. How about Dave Parker

696
00:33:20,278 --> 00:33:20,758
Speaker 1: for you.

697
00:33:21,038 --> 00:33:23,998
Speaker 3: Well, that's that's your striking A really warm court in

698
00:33:24,038 --> 00:33:26,278
Speaker 3: my heart. I love Dave Parker. Dave Parker was a

699
00:33:26,318 --> 00:33:28,198
Speaker 3: coach with the Angels in the mid nineties.

700
00:33:28,198 --> 00:33:30,478
Speaker 2: While I was there, I never met anybody to that

701
00:33:30,518 --> 00:33:32,398
Speaker 2: point that I thought was as comfortable in a Major

702
00:33:32,478 --> 00:33:35,038
Speaker 2: League baseball field as he was. He's a big man,

703
00:33:35,158 --> 00:33:39,798
Speaker 2: larger than life, really sharp, funny, funny, and a real

704
00:33:40,158 --> 00:33:42,998
Speaker 2: wonderful teammate that stuck up for He really was kind

705
00:33:42,998 --> 00:33:46,198
Speaker 2: of like my guardian angel that whole time. He liked

706
00:33:46,198 --> 00:33:49,038
Speaker 2: me and I liked him, and we always had great conversations. Okay,

707
00:33:49,038 --> 00:33:51,718
Speaker 2: that's personal, But the stuff you're talking about on the field,

708
00:33:51,758 --> 00:33:54,518
Speaker 2: it's almost like he's very close to a Dick Allen

709
00:33:54,558 --> 00:33:56,038
Speaker 2: for me. I mean the way he played and how

710
00:33:56,038 --> 00:33:57,958
Speaker 2: we played again, he was on a winning group.

711
00:33:58,478 --> 00:33:59,078
Speaker 3: I don't know.

712
00:33:59,638 --> 00:34:01,118
Speaker 2: I don't have the numbers in front of me, but

713
00:34:01,158 --> 00:34:04,358
Speaker 2: he's he's right there with Dick Gallen, you know the

714
00:34:04,398 --> 00:34:06,558
Speaker 2: other names mentioned. I have him ahead of those guys,

715
00:34:06,918 --> 00:34:09,398
Speaker 2: and I'd love to see it happening. And this is

716
00:34:09,438 --> 00:34:12,278
Speaker 2: real personal for me with him.

717
00:34:11,598 --> 00:34:13,598
Speaker 3: I like him that much.

718
00:34:13,998 --> 00:34:16,718
Speaker 2: He was that good of a teammate to me personally,

719
00:34:17,158 --> 00:34:18,798
Speaker 2: and you had to watch him throw a baseball from

720
00:34:18,878 --> 00:34:23,158
Speaker 2: right field to watch him the way he hit a baseball,

721
00:34:23,278 --> 00:34:26,038
Speaker 2: the way he started to bat not unlike a Dick Allen.

722
00:34:26,078 --> 00:34:28,438
Speaker 2: There was a uniqueness to their batting styles that really

723
00:34:29,118 --> 00:34:32,158
Speaker 2: show your attention to them. But I'll hear tell you, man,

724
00:34:32,518 --> 00:34:36,038
Speaker 2: he really got to know David Parker. He's just a

725
00:34:36,078 --> 00:34:38,318
Speaker 2: wonderful dude. And I know he's struggling right now. I

726
00:34:38,318 --> 00:34:40,638
Speaker 2: think it's Parkinston's right, but I'd go from right now

727
00:34:40,718 --> 00:34:42,598
Speaker 2: the list of game I've got Dick Allen first, and

728
00:34:42,638 --> 00:34:43,998
Speaker 2: i got David right behind him.

729
00:34:44,118 --> 00:34:48,118
Speaker 1: Dave Parker was a career two ninety hitter with two thousand,

730
00:34:48,278 --> 00:34:51,358
Speaker 1: seven hundred and twelve hits and three hundred and thirty

731
00:34:51,438 --> 00:34:54,638
Speaker 1: nine home runs. He's one of only fourteen players in

732
00:34:54,678 --> 00:34:57,438
Speaker 1: the game's history to reach those thresholds. So that's a

733
00:34:57,478 --> 00:35:02,118
Speaker 1: long time playing with power and hitting for average. Our

734
00:35:02,198 --> 00:35:06,758
Speaker 1: next candidate is a man, Vic Harris. He definitely played

735
00:35:06,758 --> 00:35:10,718
Speaker 1: as well. Played seventeen seasons, mostly in center field, eleven

736
00:35:10,758 --> 00:35:13,358
Speaker 1: as a manager, almost all of it with the Homestead Grays,

737
00:35:13,598 --> 00:35:15,598
Speaker 1: and they were a dynasty if you will. Back in

738
00:35:15,598 --> 00:35:19,558
Speaker 1: the negro Leagues, Vic Harris managed eleven years with the

739
00:35:19,598 --> 00:35:22,678
Speaker 1: Grays and they finished in first place eight of those

740
00:35:22,758 --> 00:35:25,838
Speaker 1: eleven years. That's a record for first place finishes in

741
00:35:25,878 --> 00:35:28,918
Speaker 1: the Negro Leagues for a manager. His forty eight team

742
00:35:28,958 --> 00:35:31,078
Speaker 1: won the Negro League World Series that was the last

743
00:35:31,118 --> 00:35:33,638
Speaker 1: one to be played. They beat the Birmingham Black Barons

744
00:35:33,878 --> 00:35:37,598
Speaker 1: and seventeen year old Willie Mays. He was on the

745
00:35:37,678 --> 00:35:41,918
Speaker 1: ballot before the twenty twenty two Early Baseball Committee ballot.

746
00:35:42,278 --> 00:35:45,518
Speaker 1: He received ten votes, so he felt two votes short

747
00:35:45,558 --> 00:35:49,318
Speaker 1: of election in that balloting. Vicious Vic, they called him.

748
00:35:49,318 --> 00:35:51,358
Speaker 1: He was so tough, both as a player and as

749
00:35:51,398 --> 00:35:54,958
Speaker 1: a manager. So vicious Joe, what do you think of

750
00:35:55,038 --> 00:35:57,598
Speaker 1: Vicious Vic the one manager on this list?

751
00:35:57,878 --> 00:36:00,718
Speaker 2: I think I even being discussed with those kind of credentials,

752
00:36:00,718 --> 00:36:02,958
Speaker 2: he belongs in there. Again, this is part of a

753
00:36:02,958 --> 00:36:09,038
Speaker 2: different era, different set of criterion to establish membership or not.

754
00:36:09,598 --> 00:36:12,318
Speaker 2: So for me, just based on your description of Donaldson

755
00:36:12,358 --> 00:36:16,038
Speaker 2: and Harris, again, I would put them into separate categories

756
00:36:16,078 --> 00:36:18,598
Speaker 2: and they both would qualify. For me, it makes sense,

757
00:36:19,038 --> 00:36:22,038
Speaker 2: and it would be great to represent those different eras

758
00:36:22,678 --> 00:36:25,398
Speaker 2: and styles of play in the Hall, and it would

759
00:36:25,398 --> 00:36:29,118
Speaker 2: bring attention to those those moments. So if this guy

760
00:36:29,158 --> 00:36:31,638
Speaker 2: went eight out of ten or eleven and a World

761
00:36:31,638 --> 00:36:33,998
Speaker 2: Series on top of that, my god, if he did

762
00:36:33,998 --> 00:36:36,598
Speaker 2: that in present day baseball, obviously he's walking to the

763
00:36:36,638 --> 00:36:37,118
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame.

764
00:36:37,718 --> 00:36:41,718
Speaker 3: It's like it's Boche on steroids, man it You know.

765
00:36:41,838 --> 00:36:45,158
Speaker 2: I that that absolutely, to me, would would be an

766
00:36:45,158 --> 00:36:49,078
Speaker 2: easy fit. But again, like I'm saying, like Alan Boyer,

767
00:36:50,118 --> 00:36:54,398
Speaker 2: Garvey Parker belonged to one group and consideration and Donaldson

768
00:36:54,398 --> 00:36:57,998
Speaker 2: and Harris belong to a completely different group. And from

769
00:36:57,998 --> 00:36:59,798
Speaker 2: what you're describing, to me, they both sound like they're

770
00:36:59,918 --> 00:37:02,158
Speaker 2: very worthy and qualified to be there.

771
00:37:02,318 --> 00:37:04,438
Speaker 1: Well, our last two you can compare head to head

772
00:37:04,438 --> 00:37:07,278
Speaker 1: because their pitchers are pretty much the same era. Let's

773
00:37:07,278 --> 00:37:11,278
Speaker 1: start with Tommy John. He has won more games and

774
00:37:11,398 --> 00:37:16,358
Speaker 1: thrown more innings since nineteen hundred than any pitcher not

775
00:37:16,398 --> 00:37:19,718
Speaker 1: connected to steroids. Only Roger Clemens is more wins and innings.

776
00:37:19,878 --> 00:37:24,238
Speaker 1: And of course there's the eponymous Tommy John surgery, which

777
00:37:24,278 --> 00:37:28,198
Speaker 1: actually should have been named for the surgeon, doctor Frank Joe.

778
00:37:28,238 --> 00:37:31,918
Speaker 1: But doctor Joe was such a humble man, unlike just

779
00:37:31,958 --> 00:37:34,038
Speaker 1: about ninety percent of the people in the medical field,

780
00:37:34,158 --> 00:37:37,958
Speaker 1: he named the procedure after his patient rather than himself.

781
00:37:38,198 --> 00:37:41,398
Speaker 1: But Tommy John really was the first one to successfully

782
00:37:41,438 --> 00:37:44,598
Speaker 1: come back from that surgery that changed the game two

783
00:37:44,758 --> 00:37:47,038
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty eight wins? Is it, Tommy John? What

784
00:37:47,038 --> 00:37:49,358
Speaker 1: do you think you pitched twenty six seasons?

785
00:37:49,438 --> 00:37:51,198
Speaker 3: Right? I mean I knew TJ.

786
00:37:51,358 --> 00:37:53,238
Speaker 2: Also, I caught him a lot in spring trainings, not

787
00:37:53,318 --> 00:37:56,798
Speaker 2: in games, but in workout situations. The guy just threw

788
00:37:57,158 --> 00:38:00,038
Speaker 2: and threw and threw every day, and he never threw

789
00:38:00,078 --> 00:38:01,558
Speaker 2: the ball over in the middle of the plate. Was

790
00:38:01,598 --> 00:38:06,238
Speaker 2: always on the edges or off the edges. Really interesting personality.

791
00:38:07,118 --> 00:38:08,638
Speaker 2: Those numbers are substantial.

792
00:38:08,678 --> 00:38:09,638
Speaker 3: I mean to do.

793
00:38:09,718 --> 00:38:12,158
Speaker 2: Twenty six seasons to be healthy for twenty six seasons

794
00:38:12,238 --> 00:38:15,638
Speaker 2: also speaks volumes there, and you would think that he'd

795
00:38:15,718 --> 00:38:18,518
Speaker 2: end up with Tommy John surgery after throwing twenty.

796
00:38:18,278 --> 00:38:21,718
Speaker 3: Six seasons at some point. But yeah, maybe I'm being

797
00:38:21,758 --> 00:38:23,918
Speaker 3: an easy greater right now. But I like that name too.

798
00:38:24,478 --> 00:38:26,438
Speaker 2: I like that too, and I knew doctor job also,

799
00:38:27,078 --> 00:38:28,918
Speaker 2: as we're going down this list right now, I don't

800
00:38:28,918 --> 00:38:30,958
Speaker 2: see any reason why not. I don't understand what would

801
00:38:30,998 --> 00:38:33,558
Speaker 2: keep you from wanting to keep I mean, that's that's

802
00:38:33,638 --> 00:38:36,278
Speaker 2: not quite Warren spawn numbers, but it's spawny.

803
00:38:36,278 --> 00:38:37,958
Speaker 3: I think had three hundred and sixty some wins.

804
00:38:38,398 --> 00:38:40,438
Speaker 1: Is Jim Cotton numbers. Though Jim Cott's in the Hall

805
00:38:40,478 --> 00:38:40,678
Speaker 1: of Fame.

806
00:38:41,198 --> 00:38:42,238
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's there.

807
00:38:42,278 --> 00:38:45,638
Speaker 2: They're really similar kind of players and personalities too.

808
00:38:45,758 --> 00:38:45,878
Speaker 3: Well.

809
00:38:45,878 --> 00:38:49,838
Speaker 1: It's interesting Joe because people knock them for quote unquote compiling, right,

810
00:38:50,158 --> 00:38:52,958
Speaker 1: but there's this skill to taking that ball time after

811
00:38:53,078 --> 00:38:55,278
Speaker 1: time a year after year. And it wasn't like he

812
00:38:55,318 --> 00:38:57,638
Speaker 1: was always pitching the back of the rotation either. Jim

813
00:38:57,718 --> 00:39:01,078
Speaker 1: Cott get this. In the postseason, he had thirteen starts

814
00:39:01,078 --> 00:39:03,598
Speaker 1: in the postseason for them were in Game one. So

815
00:39:03,638 --> 00:39:05,758
Speaker 1: you as a manager, you're trusting that guy, you give

816
00:39:05,798 --> 00:39:07,358
Speaker 1: him the ball in game one. That's not a back

817
00:39:07,358 --> 00:39:09,958
Speaker 1: of the rotation guy. And his ERA was two point

818
00:39:09,998 --> 00:39:12,998
Speaker 1: sixty five in the postseason. He also started an opening

819
00:39:13,078 --> 00:39:18,038
Speaker 1: days six times, so five times he was in the

820
00:39:18,038 --> 00:39:19,398
Speaker 1: top five. And Cy Young.

821
00:39:19,238 --> 00:39:22,718
Speaker 3: Voting longevity accomplishment.

822
00:39:23,278 --> 00:39:27,078
Speaker 2: To underestimate that, my God, to compiling to be able

823
00:39:27,078 --> 00:39:30,758
Speaker 2: to have your body work that well that long and

824
00:39:30,798 --> 00:39:35,398
Speaker 2: be that accomplished, Phil Nkros, I mean, that is really

825
00:39:35,438 --> 00:39:38,518
Speaker 2: a special human being right there. So it's got to

826
00:39:38,558 --> 00:39:42,118
Speaker 2: go beyond just pure, purely numbers. I guess it's part

827
00:39:42,118 --> 00:39:44,358
Speaker 2: of the way I look at the worldview anyway. These

828
00:39:44,358 --> 00:39:48,758
Speaker 2: are distinctly different human beings. Caught Jimmy Cott, loved Jimmy Cott.

829
00:39:48,798 --> 00:39:49,438
Speaker 3: I know Jim.

830
00:39:49,718 --> 00:39:52,758
Speaker 2: I knew Spawnee really well too. But these are those

831
00:39:52,838 --> 00:39:54,758
Speaker 2: kind of left handers. I mean Whitey Ford. I mean

832
00:39:54,758 --> 00:39:57,238
Speaker 2: Whitey Ford. You know he wasn't a hard thrown left

833
00:39:57,238 --> 00:40:00,998
Speaker 2: hander either, Glavin. All these lefties like that of that ILK,

834
00:40:01,318 --> 00:40:03,238
Speaker 2: I don't see any reason why not. I think TJ

835
00:40:04,078 --> 00:40:06,558
Speaker 2: definitely belongs in there. And on top of that, the

836
00:40:06,598 --> 00:40:08,718
Speaker 2: fact that the surgery that he was the first one

837
00:40:08,798 --> 00:40:12,958
Speaker 2: too attempting and doctor names it after him, really saved

838
00:40:12,958 --> 00:40:16,118
Speaker 2: the careers of a lot of pitchers since then.

839
00:40:16,478 --> 00:40:17,838
Speaker 3: So I'm saying yes on TJ.

840
00:40:18,198 --> 00:40:20,358
Speaker 1: Yeah, I spoke, by the way in the top five,

841
00:40:20,398 --> 00:40:22,718
Speaker 1: and Cy Young he was only twice, that was seventy

842
00:40:22,838 --> 00:40:25,198
Speaker 1: nine and eighty. He's a twenty game winner with the Yankees.

843
00:40:25,478 --> 00:40:27,358
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, for me, it's hard to separate

844
00:40:27,438 --> 00:40:30,598
Speaker 1: Tommy John from say Burt pl e eleven and Jim Cott.

845
00:40:30,878 --> 00:40:33,558
Speaker 1: And I do think for people who last that long

846
00:40:33,558 --> 00:40:35,558
Speaker 1: in this game, and again a lot of times as

847
00:40:35,598 --> 00:40:38,278
Speaker 1: a number one starter, those are outliers. The Hall of

848
00:40:38,278 --> 00:40:42,758
Speaker 1: Fame is about outliers. And the other one lost candidate here,

849
00:40:42,878 --> 00:40:47,278
Speaker 1: Joe Luis Tiant, unfortunately just passed away one of the

850
00:40:47,278 --> 00:40:51,638
Speaker 1: most entertaining and prolific pitchers in an era that was

851
00:40:51,678 --> 00:40:55,358
Speaker 1: dominated by starting pitchers. He pitched nineteen years for six teams,

852
00:40:55,478 --> 00:40:58,358
Speaker 1: often as the ace, two hundred and twenty nine wins

853
00:40:58,438 --> 00:41:01,398
Speaker 1: with a three to three ERA over almost thirty five

854
00:41:01,398 --> 00:41:05,038
Speaker 1: one hundred innings, won two ERA titles, twenty game winner

855
00:41:05,118 --> 00:41:07,598
Speaker 1: four times, and finish in the top five. And Cy

856
00:41:07,638 --> 00:41:10,998
Speaker 1: Young voting two times. But of course you think about

857
00:41:11,038 --> 00:41:13,798
Speaker 1: Louis Tian. You don't think about the numbers. You think

858
00:41:13,838 --> 00:41:16,438
Speaker 1: it about the way that you know he changed his

859
00:41:16,518 --> 00:41:19,718
Speaker 1: arm angle, the gyrations, the change of speeds, just the

860
00:41:19,758 --> 00:41:23,558
Speaker 1: pure joy of watching this guy. He turned pitching into entertainment.

861
00:41:24,398 --> 00:41:25,758
Speaker 1: Louis Tiant, What do you think?

862
00:41:25,998 --> 00:41:27,238
Speaker 3: I love them too? Is another?

863
00:41:27,238 --> 00:41:29,998
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't. I can't believe. But you're talking

864
00:41:30,038 --> 00:41:33,158
Speaker 2: about these guys. How many actually know or knew? Yeah,

865
00:41:33,318 --> 00:41:35,878
Speaker 2: Louis came to an event for me in Pennsylvania years

866
00:41:35,918 --> 00:41:37,918
Speaker 2: ago for the Hazelton Integration Project.

867
00:41:37,998 --> 00:41:38,958
Speaker 3: He was a huge hit.

868
00:41:39,438 --> 00:41:42,958
Speaker 2: What a wonderful man, What a pleasant person.

869
00:41:42,718 --> 00:41:43,838
Speaker 1: To speak with, sweetheart?

870
00:41:43,918 --> 00:41:47,158
Speaker 2: Oh my god. So anyway, again, I think he's a

871
00:41:47,198 --> 00:41:49,798
Speaker 2: four A guy. I think he's just not He's a

872
00:41:50,318 --> 00:41:52,238
Speaker 2: knocking on a door but not quite in there. And

873
00:41:52,278 --> 00:41:55,478
Speaker 2: he was entertaining and you'd wanted to that. You talk

874
00:41:55,518 --> 00:41:57,478
Speaker 2: about the Marquee matchups. If I'm going to take my

875
00:41:57,598 --> 00:42:00,958
Speaker 2: kid to see a game, I'm looking for when tis pitching, Well,

876
00:42:01,438 --> 00:42:03,838
Speaker 2: I want to go see Tian versus I don't know,

877
00:42:04,118 --> 00:42:06,238
Speaker 2: Tommy John. At some point, you know that would be

878
00:42:06,278 --> 00:42:08,878
Speaker 2: an entertaining day when you have those kind of Marquis

879
00:42:08,958 --> 00:42:11,278
Speaker 2: starting pitchers. That was a big part of why you

880
00:42:11,318 --> 00:42:13,678
Speaker 2: wanted to see a game, go to a game, or

881
00:42:13,758 --> 00:42:15,678
Speaker 2: definitely see the buck score the next morning, because there

882
00:42:15,718 --> 00:42:19,158
Speaker 2: was definitely no highlights on TV that night, or there

883
00:42:19,198 --> 00:42:20,198
Speaker 2: was no ESPN.

884
00:42:19,918 --> 00:42:20,398
Speaker 3: At that moment.

885
00:42:20,438 --> 00:42:26,398
Speaker 2: So louis tiant, different category, human being, wonderful, great picture, yes,

886
00:42:27,038 --> 00:42:29,358
Speaker 2: But I think he might just fall short.

887
00:42:29,518 --> 00:42:32,798
Speaker 3: I just think it's a four A situation. And God, I.

888
00:42:33,318 --> 00:42:35,758
Speaker 2: Hate that because the guy was great to me, great

889
00:42:35,798 --> 00:42:39,398
Speaker 2: to our foundation here, and he's was a wonderful human being,

890
00:42:40,638 --> 00:42:41,238
Speaker 2: lovely man.

891
00:42:41,278 --> 00:42:42,958
Speaker 3: But I just think you falls short a little bit.

892
00:42:43,638 --> 00:42:45,918
Speaker 1: Well, now, Joe, you have an idea of how difficult

893
00:42:46,038 --> 00:42:49,398
Speaker 1: this job is because if you're in that room, you

894
00:42:49,438 --> 00:42:51,158
Speaker 1: can vote for no more than three.

895
00:42:51,558 --> 00:42:52,478
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that.

896
00:42:52,278 --> 00:42:54,918
Speaker 1: That is very hard. And again it's hard because we're

897
00:42:54,918 --> 00:42:57,718
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, different positions on the field and

898
00:42:57,798 --> 00:42:59,958
Speaker 1: different eras of the game. It covers a lot of

899
00:43:00,038 --> 00:43:02,638
Speaker 1: ground with a lot of good candidates. I have no

900
00:43:02,718 --> 00:43:05,518
Speaker 1: idea how this is going to turn out other than

901
00:43:05,558 --> 00:43:07,758
Speaker 1: I think because when you just do the math, when

902
00:43:07,758 --> 00:43:10,518
Speaker 1: there's so many good candidates, it's hard to get multiple

903
00:43:10,758 --> 00:43:13,638
Speaker 1: candidates over that threshold of getting twelve out of the

904
00:43:13,678 --> 00:43:14,878
Speaker 1: sixteen votes, I.

905
00:43:14,878 --> 00:43:18,318
Speaker 2: Got three, then I go Dick Allen, Dave Parker and TJF.

906
00:43:18,358 --> 00:43:20,878
Speaker 2: If I was permitted three votes, I would go there.

907
00:43:21,158 --> 00:43:23,998
Speaker 1: We'll find out that a Sunday night. We will find

908
00:43:23,998 --> 00:43:29,438
Speaker 1: out about who, if anybody, is the newest Hall of Famers. Hey,

909
00:43:29,438 --> 00:43:31,718
Speaker 1: when we get back, I want to talk about someone

910
00:43:31,758 --> 00:43:34,318
Speaker 1: I mentioned this is the top retired from his sport

911
00:43:34,358 --> 00:43:36,318
Speaker 1: as one of the greatest ever. Didn't get a lot

912
00:43:36,358 --> 00:43:39,278
Speaker 1: of a play in the media, but I think there's

913
00:43:39,318 --> 00:43:42,118
Speaker 1: some parallels here to what's happening in baseball these days.

914
00:43:42,278 --> 00:43:55,678
Speaker 1: Get back to that right after this. Welcome back to

915
00:43:55,718 --> 00:43:58,518
Speaker 1: the Book of Joe Podcasts and Joe. I'm guessing you've

916
00:43:58,518 --> 00:44:03,038
Speaker 1: not heard the name Mark Cavendish. Have not, Mark Cavendish,

917
00:44:03,038 --> 00:44:04,918
Speaker 1: And I say that with all due respect to you,

918
00:44:04,958 --> 00:44:06,958
Speaker 1: because I know you like to bike. You like to

919
00:44:06,958 --> 00:44:07,638
Speaker 1: get on your bike.

920
00:44:08,038 --> 00:44:09,478
Speaker 3: I do. I'm going to do that today.

921
00:44:09,678 --> 00:44:13,958
Speaker 1: Okay. Mark Cavendish is probably the greatest sprinter in cycling

922
00:44:14,198 --> 00:44:16,878
Speaker 1: that there ever has been. Wow, he just retired at

923
00:44:16,878 --> 00:44:21,478
Speaker 1: the age of thirty nine. He's born in Wales. Long career, obviously,

924
00:44:22,118 --> 00:44:26,158
Speaker 1: but what caught me was Mark is five foot nine okay,

925
00:44:26,398 --> 00:44:29,078
Speaker 1: and he set the record for the most wins and

926
00:44:29,198 --> 00:44:33,278
Speaker 1: sprint wins in cycling history. And when he left, he said,

927
00:44:33,398 --> 00:44:37,198
Speaker 1: you know what, I could not be this successful in

928
00:44:37,278 --> 00:44:40,958
Speaker 1: today's sport of cycling as I have been over the years.

929
00:44:40,998 --> 00:44:43,598
Speaker 1: And his point was, you look around now, it's all

930
00:44:43,638 --> 00:44:46,558
Speaker 1: about power riding the bike. These guys are big. Now

931
00:44:46,558 --> 00:44:49,718
Speaker 1: there's six foot two. He was five foot nine. And

932
00:44:49,758 --> 00:44:53,038
Speaker 1: the way he said he won races was with being

933
00:44:53,118 --> 00:44:56,438
Speaker 1: a great tactician and willpower as well. And he said,

934
00:44:56,518 --> 00:44:58,878
Speaker 1: now you look around and these guys are all in

935
00:44:58,878 --> 00:45:02,078
Speaker 1: the labs. They're all, you know, getting really really big.

936
00:45:02,158 --> 00:45:06,678
Speaker 1: It's all about pure power. The tactician is not really

937
00:45:06,798 --> 00:45:10,918
Speaker 1: valued as much in cycling. Here was this quote. If

938
00:45:10,918 --> 00:45:15,798
Speaker 1: you look, if you look at cycling, it's power in

939
00:45:15,878 --> 00:45:19,118
Speaker 1: the lab. He said, I would if I looked at

940
00:45:19,158 --> 00:45:22,678
Speaker 1: myself in the lab, I would not stand out at all.

941
00:45:23,438 --> 00:45:27,198
Speaker 1: But I had great self belief and a lot of

942
00:45:27,198 --> 00:45:30,118
Speaker 1: people would call that arrogance, but it's just about I

943
00:45:30,198 --> 00:45:33,758
Speaker 1: knew what I was capable of achieving. It's interesting he

944
00:45:33,798 --> 00:45:36,038
Speaker 1: mentioned that term lab because a lot of baseball these

945
00:45:36,118 --> 00:45:38,518
Speaker 1: days is built in the lab. And it's a good

946
00:45:38,518 --> 00:45:42,198
Speaker 1: thing because we're making people better. But we've talked a

947
00:45:42,238 --> 00:45:44,558
Speaker 1: lot on this podcast, Joe about balance, and I think

948
00:45:44,558 --> 00:45:46,798
Speaker 1: this was just a good reminder that, you know, the

949
00:45:46,838 --> 00:45:49,358
Speaker 1: other side of it, that's sort of like what can't

950
00:45:49,358 --> 00:45:52,758
Speaker 1: be quantified made this guy who he was the greatest

951
00:45:52,758 --> 00:45:54,318
Speaker 1: sprint cyclist there ever was.

952
00:45:55,558 --> 00:45:56,918
Speaker 3: The mind brother, the mind.

953
00:45:56,958 --> 00:46:00,038
Speaker 2: You got to beat him with your brain sometimes, you know,

954
00:46:00,198 --> 00:46:02,958
Speaker 2: you just hate there's rather the comparison. I've been playing,

955
00:46:02,998 --> 00:46:04,798
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of golf and playing with the

956
00:46:04,838 --> 00:46:07,518
Speaker 2: young man yesterday. There's no way last two days, there's

957
00:46:07,558 --> 00:46:09,358
Speaker 2: no way could have hit a golf ball that far

958
00:46:09,398 --> 00:46:11,558
Speaker 2: at any age what these guys.

959
00:46:11,398 --> 00:46:12,278
Speaker 3: Are doing right now.

960
00:46:12,318 --> 00:46:14,678
Speaker 2: And then you have to, you know, try to get

961
00:46:14,678 --> 00:46:16,718
Speaker 2: your best drive and then after that be as accurate

962
00:46:16,758 --> 00:46:18,558
Speaker 2: as you can even just to keep up with them.

963
00:46:18,558 --> 00:46:24,158
Speaker 2: It's that's ridiculous. And back to the cyclists and the bigger,

964
00:46:24,278 --> 00:46:27,078
Speaker 2: better bodies, but they can't pitch six innings or two

965
00:46:27,198 --> 00:46:30,198
Speaker 2: hundred regardless of all the training that they've been doing.

966
00:46:30,238 --> 00:46:32,678
Speaker 2: What's I mean, if you're bigger, stronger, and in a

967
00:46:32,758 --> 00:46:36,198
Speaker 2: sense physically better, why are you unable to produce that

968
00:46:36,318 --> 00:46:40,358
Speaker 2: kind of outcome that had been done before by Tommy

969
00:46:40,438 --> 00:46:46,278
Speaker 2: John or a Louis Tiant or Spanny. Spanny wasn't that big?

970
00:46:46,318 --> 00:46:49,678
Speaker 2: I mean, why you did mention bigger and better? They

971
00:46:49,678 --> 00:46:52,478
Speaker 2: are in a sense, But when it comes down to

972
00:46:52,478 --> 00:46:55,038
Speaker 2: actually playing the game of producing results, are they You've

973
00:46:55,038 --> 00:46:58,118
Speaker 2: talked about Montas getting that much money for some really

974
00:46:58,158 --> 00:47:02,158
Speaker 2: mediocre seasons. These are the kind of incongruities that really

975
00:47:02,198 --> 00:47:04,518
Speaker 2: are difficult to deal with. But I do believe and

976
00:47:04,558 --> 00:47:10,038
Speaker 2: I really resonated to me regarding your the cyclist's evaluation,

977
00:47:10,918 --> 00:47:12,598
Speaker 2: you have to beat them with your mind. Sometimes you

978
00:47:12,598 --> 00:47:14,238
Speaker 2: got to beat them with your brain. It's not always

979
00:47:14,238 --> 00:47:17,598
Speaker 2: about the physical component. It is about balance, so that

980
00:47:17,598 --> 00:47:18,998
Speaker 2: that's always been.

981
00:47:18,918 --> 00:47:20,038
Speaker 3: Really important to me.

982
00:47:20,878 --> 00:47:24,318
Speaker 2: That's where the word Ryan really becomes effective and important,

983
00:47:24,518 --> 00:47:26,718
Speaker 2: where you just have to be a little bit one.

984
00:47:27,478 --> 00:47:30,198
Speaker 2: You have to hold on one second longer than your

985
00:47:30,398 --> 00:47:33,438
Speaker 2: opposition does. Mentally, these are the kind of things that

986
00:47:33,478 --> 00:47:37,438
Speaker 2: I think aren't spoken about enough. So at the end

987
00:47:37,438 --> 00:47:41,638
Speaker 2: of the day, yes, there's the athletes are bigger, stronger, faster,

988
00:47:41,718 --> 00:47:42,718
Speaker 2: and much in football games.

989
00:47:42,718 --> 00:47:43,318
Speaker 3: It's insane.

990
00:47:43,598 --> 00:47:47,958
Speaker 2: These are car crashes on a football field. Who got

991
00:47:47,958 --> 00:47:50,318
Speaker 2: taken out the other day, Lawrence on that hit those

992
00:47:50,438 --> 00:47:54,278
Speaker 2: vicious was not more vicious or less than Ronnie Lott

993
00:47:54,318 --> 00:47:56,278
Speaker 2: may have done more often back in the day, but

994
00:47:56,318 --> 00:47:59,438
Speaker 2: it was vicious. So how do you beat this? How

995
00:47:59,438 --> 00:48:03,318
Speaker 2: do you beat this? These massive, physically strong people. And

996
00:48:03,358 --> 00:48:05,038
Speaker 2: it's got to down to there's got to be an

997
00:48:05,118 --> 00:48:07,758
Speaker 2: edge derived somewhere internally in your heart and your brain

998
00:48:08,358 --> 00:48:12,438
Speaker 2: and that's sinew that just permits you to outcompete somebody

999
00:48:12,438 --> 00:48:17,078
Speaker 2: and so never underestimate competing and like you suggested, balance,

1000
00:48:17,078 --> 00:48:18,558
Speaker 2: So there's got to be a balanced all this. It

1001
00:48:18,598 --> 00:48:21,078
Speaker 2: just can't be body beautiful. It's got to be a

1002
00:48:21,998 --> 00:48:23,518
Speaker 2: beautiful mind also has got to be.

1003
00:48:23,438 --> 00:48:23,878
Speaker 3: Part of that.

1004
00:48:24,238 --> 00:48:27,758
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's why using this cycling example, I'm not

1005
00:48:27,838 --> 00:48:31,038
Speaker 1: optimistic that the trend of pitching is going to change.

1006
00:48:31,198 --> 00:48:34,318
Speaker 1: I just think as the human population does get bigger,

1007
00:48:34,358 --> 00:48:38,158
Speaker 1: and we know more about training, and we can add velocity,

1008
00:48:38,198 --> 00:48:41,598
Speaker 1: we can add strength, these things are all being done.

1009
00:48:41,798 --> 00:48:43,718
Speaker 1: I don't see it going the other way because I

1010
00:48:43,758 --> 00:48:46,198
Speaker 1: don't think there's an incentive to do something different than

1011
00:48:46,238 --> 00:48:47,958
Speaker 1: what we have now. This is the system that we

1012
00:48:48,038 --> 00:48:50,598
Speaker 1: have and that's where MLB is stuck. And I know

1013
00:48:50,638 --> 00:48:53,318
Speaker 1: they want to re establish who a starting pitcher is

1014
00:48:53,398 --> 00:48:55,558
Speaker 1: in this placed in the game, because it should be.

1015
00:48:55,638 --> 00:48:57,798
Speaker 1: As Ed Lynch once told me, it's the only position

1016
00:48:57,838 --> 00:49:00,318
Speaker 1: on a field, any field. What we actually build a

1017
00:49:00,318 --> 00:49:03,318
Speaker 1: pedestal for them. They stand on a mound above everybody else,

1018
00:49:03,438 --> 00:49:05,718
Speaker 1: and that's the way it should be. But I'd like

1019
00:49:05,758 --> 00:49:07,598
Speaker 1: to be more optimistic Joe, that we're going to go

1020
00:49:07,638 --> 00:49:10,438
Speaker 1: back to having pictures pitch more often or at least longer.

1021
00:49:10,518 --> 00:49:12,798
Speaker 1: But I don't say it based on the system we

1022
00:49:12,838 --> 00:49:15,518
Speaker 1: have now. It's based pure on power and maxing out,

1023
00:49:15,678 --> 00:49:19,078
Speaker 1: and these are the incentives, and the generation is now

1024
00:49:19,158 --> 00:49:20,878
Speaker 1: growing up with this technology.

1025
00:49:21,518 --> 00:49:24,038
Speaker 2: You're right, I'm not gonna argue that point. I'm just

1026
00:49:24,078 --> 00:49:27,118
Speaker 2: saying that I like to see an attempt. You talked

1027
00:49:27,118 --> 00:49:29,398
Speaker 2: about adding velocity. There's so many things you add. You

1028
00:49:29,438 --> 00:49:31,838
Speaker 2: had bigger muscles, You add stronger muscles in a sense,

1029
00:49:31,878 --> 00:49:34,598
Speaker 2: you add quickness, agility, But do you add heart? How

1030
00:49:34,598 --> 00:49:36,198
Speaker 2: do you measure the heart? Why is the heart not

1031
00:49:36,278 --> 00:49:39,318
Speaker 2: even being considered in all this? The ability to compete

1032
00:49:39,358 --> 00:49:41,478
Speaker 2: somebody that wants to win more than somebody else does.

1033
00:49:41,798 --> 00:49:43,718
Speaker 2: The one thing that I always try to stress with

1034
00:49:43,758 --> 00:49:47,158
Speaker 2: my guys that managed some really wonderful great athletes and

1035
00:49:47,198 --> 00:49:52,758
Speaker 2: contemporaries in today's world compete, man, I want the group

1036
00:49:52,798 --> 00:49:55,318
Speaker 2: that out competes the other group on a nightly basis.

1037
00:49:55,438 --> 00:49:58,198
Speaker 2: That's where the Tampa Bay Rays could have beaten the

1038
00:49:58,238 --> 00:50:00,198
Speaker 2: New York Yankees in two thousand and eight and nine.

1039
00:50:00,238 --> 00:50:05,878
Speaker 2: Whatever Red Sox, They're economical advantage was large. Was you

1040
00:50:05,878 --> 00:50:09,078
Speaker 2: can't even fathom how the difference between payrolls and money

1041
00:50:09,078 --> 00:50:12,078
Speaker 2: spent and abilities regarding that. But my line to my

1042
00:50:12,158 --> 00:50:15,398
Speaker 2: guys every night was, you know, we got to play

1043
00:50:15,398 --> 00:50:17,278
Speaker 2: a better game of baseball. We got to beat them

1044
00:50:17,358 --> 00:50:20,118
Speaker 2: again with their minds in our hearts and out compete

1045
00:50:20,118 --> 00:50:20,558
Speaker 2: the groups.

1046
00:50:20,598 --> 00:50:23,478
Speaker 3: But that's not even talked about. It's not even spoken about.

1047
00:50:23,918 --> 00:50:25,598
Speaker 1: Well, Joe, I think it has to be this time

1048
00:50:25,638 --> 00:50:27,918
Speaker 1: of year especially. I mean, if you're a front office guy,

1049
00:50:27,958 --> 00:50:31,158
Speaker 1: you've got to do the intel. Like to me, again,

1050
00:50:31,198 --> 00:50:32,718
Speaker 1: I don't know what the medicals look like, but a

1051
00:50:32,878 --> 00:50:35,638
Speaker 1: Justin Verlander, a Max scherz Er, I want them around

1052
00:50:35,638 --> 00:50:39,118
Speaker 1: my guys. I want them in the clubhouse. I've got

1053
00:50:39,118 --> 00:50:41,478
Speaker 1: to do the research. Which guys are going to be

1054
00:50:41,638 --> 00:50:45,438
Speaker 1: team oriented, which guys want to win more than anything else. Yeah,

1055
00:50:45,478 --> 00:50:46,918
Speaker 1: I'll look at all the numbers. I'll look at your

1056
00:50:46,958 --> 00:50:49,958
Speaker 1: spin rates. Absolutely, but that to me is the deciding

1057
00:50:49,998 --> 00:50:52,438
Speaker 1: factor watching the Dodgers play. The Dodgers had a bunch

1058
00:50:52,518 --> 00:50:55,398
Speaker 1: of grinders this year, you know, coming from five runs

1059
00:50:55,398 --> 00:50:58,478
Speaker 1: down to win Game five and you know, facing elimination

1060
00:50:58,558 --> 00:51:00,798
Speaker 1: to San Diego and winning too straight without giving up

1061
00:51:00,838 --> 00:51:04,158
Speaker 1: a run. They got a really good group of guys. Yeah,

1062
00:51:04,198 --> 00:51:05,918
Speaker 1: so that's got to be part of the equation.

1063
00:51:06,478 --> 00:51:08,238
Speaker 3: It is for me. I mean, that was the thing.

1064
00:51:08,318 --> 00:51:12,318
Speaker 2: I'll go back to our sixteen group when we had

1065
00:51:12,358 --> 00:51:13,878
Speaker 2: it like a David Ross that year.

1066
00:51:13,918 --> 00:51:15,278
Speaker 3: I remember, I'm now here in Tampa.

1067
00:51:15,278 --> 00:51:17,918
Speaker 2: I can remember exactly where I was parked in this

1068
00:51:18,118 --> 00:51:20,638
Speaker 2: parking lot because THEO set it up for me to

1069
00:51:20,678 --> 00:51:22,838
Speaker 2: speak with David. First time I did it was in

1070
00:51:22,838 --> 00:51:27,318
Speaker 2: my nineteen sixty seven Galaxy convertible. I'm sitting in the

1071
00:51:27,318 --> 00:51:29,838
Speaker 2: backro I'm sitting talking to David Ross and really being

1072
00:51:29,878 --> 00:51:32,158
Speaker 2: impressed with David Ross, and I knew he was going

1073
00:51:32,198 --> 00:51:34,158
Speaker 2: to bring to our team everything that you just talked

1074
00:51:34,198 --> 00:51:37,678
Speaker 2: about right there that we were missing. Miggey Montero brought

1075
00:51:37,718 --> 00:51:39,958
Speaker 2: a lot of that edge to our group that we

1076
00:51:39,958 --> 00:51:43,518
Speaker 2: were missing the two thousand and eight Rays. It was

1077
00:51:44,158 --> 00:51:47,678
Speaker 2: Troy Percival, it was Eric Kinsky, it was Cliff Floyd

1078
00:51:48,118 --> 00:51:50,718
Speaker 2: that brought that edginess to our group that we needed

1079
00:51:50,758 --> 00:51:51,718
Speaker 2: to get over the top.

1080
00:51:52,118 --> 00:51:53,678
Speaker 3: The unmeasurables immeasurable.

1081
00:51:53,758 --> 00:51:57,798
Speaker 2: You can't measure that stuff unless you actually perceive it

1082
00:51:57,838 --> 00:52:00,278
Speaker 2: to be important, and then you can look for recognize it,

1083
00:52:00,398 --> 00:52:04,838
Speaker 2: want it, and then cultivate it and get it. And

1084
00:52:04,918 --> 00:52:06,598
Speaker 2: these teams that want to win, like you said, the

1085
00:52:06,638 --> 00:52:09,478
Speaker 2: Dodgers really did exemplify all that. It was a combination

1086
00:52:09,558 --> 00:52:14,398
Speaker 2: of wonderful physical talent and innate competitive nature and wanting

1087
00:52:14,438 --> 00:52:18,558
Speaker 2: to win. Difference Maker Michael Jordan, Lebron James, all these dudes,

1088
00:52:18,878 --> 00:52:22,878
Speaker 2: Pat Mahomes, all these guys have this different motor. They

1089
00:52:22,918 --> 00:52:25,198
Speaker 2: got a different motor man, and if you're going to win,

1090
00:52:25,238 --> 00:52:26,318
Speaker 2: you need that different motor.

1091
00:52:26,718 --> 00:52:30,198
Speaker 1: Well, Mark Cavendish had a different motor and you know

1092
00:52:30,598 --> 00:52:33,518
Speaker 1: when he saw the finish line, he sprinted like nobody else.

1093
00:52:33,638 --> 00:52:37,118
Speaker 1: And so that makes you, Joe are Mark Cavendish. Finished

1094
00:52:37,158 --> 00:52:38,598
Speaker 1: line is ahead, You're going to take us to the

1095
00:52:38,678 --> 00:52:39,998
Speaker 1: finish line. What do you got today?

1096
00:52:40,078 --> 00:52:43,438
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it applies again. One of my favorites

1097
00:52:43,598 --> 00:52:47,638
Speaker 2: has always been Colin Powell. Really was so disappointed he

1098
00:52:47,758 --> 00:52:49,598
Speaker 2: never ran for president. I thought he'd have been the

1099
00:52:49,598 --> 00:52:52,798
Speaker 2: perfect guy at a time we really needed that kind

1100
00:52:52,798 --> 00:52:56,758
Speaker 2: of leadership. And this is a quote, and then it's

1101
00:52:57,558 --> 00:53:00,238
Speaker 2: an explanation of the coach are really fine, pertinent everything

1102
00:53:00,278 --> 00:53:00,598
Speaker 2: we just.

1103
00:53:00,518 --> 00:53:02,358
Speaker 3: Talked about, and he talked.

1104
00:53:02,478 --> 00:53:05,078
Speaker 2: He spoke about dig up all the information you can,

1105
00:53:05,518 --> 00:53:08,238
Speaker 2: then go with your instincts. This is a general speaking

1106
00:53:08,358 --> 00:53:12,078
Speaker 2: right now, guy's in charge of a lot of human lives.

1107
00:53:12,398 --> 00:53:15,518
Speaker 2: There will never be enough information to guarantee a perfect decision.

1108
00:53:16,558 --> 00:53:19,798
Speaker 2: Powell strikes an insightful balance with this advice, which is

1109
00:53:19,838 --> 00:53:24,398
Speaker 2: applicable to combat career moves and everything in between. Rather

1110
00:53:24,478 --> 00:53:27,118
Speaker 2: than try to think your way through complex problems, it's

1111
00:53:27,158 --> 00:53:30,598
Speaker 2: better to trust that internal voice. The subtle magic is

1112
00:53:30,638 --> 00:53:33,638
Speaker 2: that by digging up all the information you can, you

1113
00:53:33,758 --> 00:53:36,238
Speaker 2: feed and inform your instincts.

1114
00:53:36,718 --> 00:53:38,278
Speaker 3: God do I love that.

1115
00:53:38,758 --> 00:53:41,758
Speaker 2: Another way of talking about Blink and Malcolm Gladwell and

1116
00:53:41,798 --> 00:53:44,798
Speaker 2: all that stuff. But then my little note after that

1117
00:53:44,878 --> 00:53:47,638
Speaker 2: perfectly explains my mindset when it comes to prepping for

1118
00:53:47,958 --> 00:53:50,838
Speaker 2: and managing a game of baseball. Really well thought out,

1119
00:53:50,838 --> 00:53:53,878
Speaker 2: well said, And this guy was an outstanding leader.

1120
00:53:54,238 --> 00:53:56,478
Speaker 3: He wasn't a control he was an empower error.

1121
00:53:57,158 --> 00:54:00,158
Speaker 2: And so when I read that I read his autobiography

1122
00:54:00,238 --> 00:54:02,598
Speaker 2: years ago, and I thought it was spectacular, so I

1123
00:54:02,638 --> 00:54:03,558
Speaker 2: just went with him today.

1124
00:54:05,078 --> 00:54:06,158
Speaker 1: The subtle magic.

1125
00:54:06,438 --> 00:54:06,878
Speaker 3: I like that.

1126
00:54:07,398 --> 00:54:10,358
Speaker 1: Yeah, well said as always put a bow on this

1127
00:54:10,478 --> 00:54:13,118
Speaker 1: edition of the Book of Joe and Joe Well, next time,

1128
00:54:13,238 --> 00:54:15,078
Speaker 1: I will talk to you from the Winter Meetings, and

1129
00:54:15,118 --> 00:54:17,198
Speaker 1: hopefully we have lots to talk about.

1130
00:54:17,438 --> 00:54:21,078
Speaker 3: Where are the Winter Meetings, Dallas? Okay, We'll have fun, brother,

1131
00:54:21,318 --> 00:54:22,238
Speaker 3: looking forward to it.

1132
00:54:29,558 --> 00:54:32,758
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1133
00:54:32,998 --> 00:54:37,878
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1134
00:54:38,118 --> 00:54:39,878
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.