WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 56 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.119 there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:28.080 can make your own decisions. Hello, and welcome to It 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:32.120 could happen here. This is Sharene and today is going 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:34.640 to be the start of a little series about Libya. 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:39.120 Why Libya, you may ask, Well, I wanted to learn 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:42.880 about Libya, so selfishly I thought, why not record myself 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:47.800 learning about Libya and maybe y'all can learn along with me. Um. 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.320 I think there are so many countries right now that 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:55.240 are in a state of unrest or turmoil or instability, 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.760 and it's really important to know how we got here, 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:04.400 know what those countries went through to reach this state 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:12.199 of unpredictability and unease. So we're gonna start with Libya today. 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:13.760 There are so many other countries I want to do 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:17.040 this with, But I really love history and I love 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.760 knowing the context of a country. So hopefully by the 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.360 end of this will reach present day news about Libya 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:25.640 and we'll have a foundation to talk about Libya in 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.959 the future from a place of knowing. Let's go to 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.600 seventy four BC all the way back to seventy four 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:35.520 b C. The Romans conquered Libya and held control until 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.760 six forty three a D. In sixty three a D. 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:43.640 I'm Ad been Alas conquered Libya and spread Islam across 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:46.880 northern Africa. He was the Arab commander who led the 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.600 Muslim conquest of Egypt and is regarded as one of 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.639 the most important figures in the history of Egypt because 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.800 he introduced a Slam to the country. He also served 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.680 as its governor in six forty to sixty six and 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.160 again from six fifty eight to six sixty four a D. 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:06.520 He founded a new city just north of the Roman 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:11.639 fort of Babylon called Fostat. Today, the Mosque of Amas 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.520 still marks the site of this city. He is a 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:18.680 highly respected figure for Muslims. Now, let's fast forward to 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.200 the sixteenth century, when Libya became part of the Ottoman Empire. 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.880 At this point, the Ottoman Empire had accumulated a huge 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.720 amount of territory and continued to do so. In sixteen 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:32.760 forty three a d. The Ottoman Empire was at its 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:36.000 largest extent. Go look at a map. It is a lot. 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.680 It's known as one of history's most powerful empires, and 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.960 it grew from a Turkish stronghold in Anatolia into a 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.280 vast state that at its peak reached as far north 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.960 as Vienna, Austria, as far east as the Persian Gulf, 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.880 as far west as Algeria, and as far south as Yemen. 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.280 It is a huge swath of land, and the Ottoman 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:01.480 Empire on its own deserves many episodes. I think it's 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.760 a very fascinating part of history, but we'll get there 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:08.800 another time. Now, let's jump aheads centuries to the early 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.240 nineteen hundreds at the start of World War One. So 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:16.480 this whole time, all these centuries, between the sixteenth century 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.080 in the early nineteen hundreds, the Ottoman Empire was in 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.400 control of Libya and a lot of other territories surrounding it. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:25.880 But at the start of World War One, the Ottoman 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:29.360 Empire was already in decline. The Ottoman army met with 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:32.760 a disastrous defeat in the Italio Turkish War, that was 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.640 between nineteen eleven and nineteen twelve and the Balkan Wars 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.120 between nineteen twelve and nineteen thirteen, and both of these 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.080 defeats resulted in the Ottomans being driven out of North 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.560 Africa and nearly out of all of Europe. The Ottoman 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.120 Empire officially ended in nineteen twenty two when the title 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:54.240 of Ottoman Sultan was eliminated. Again, this was only a 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.080 century ago, nWo. We think everything happened so long ago, 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:02.560 but a century isn't that long. And uh, I feel 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:06.160 like maybe the word empire makes something seem very far away, 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:08.960 but it really wasn't. And maybe this is just a 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.440 little prequel to me talking with the Ottoman Empire in 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.600 a future episode. Who knows if that'll ever happened. Stay tuned, 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:19.000 I suppose anyway. Turkey was declared a republic on October 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:22.920 twenty nine of nineteen twenty three, when Mustafa command out 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.960 of Took, who was an army officer, founded the Independent 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.680 Republic of Turkey. The Ottoman Empire deserves many episodes on 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.120 its own, as I said, but let's go back to 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:36.040 Libya for today. There was a stretch of time preceding 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.880 the fall of the Ottoman Empire when Libya was under 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:43.360 Italian rule. It started between nineteen eleven and nineteen twelve 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:48.640 when Italy sees Libya from the Ottomans and then began 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:53.359 a twenty year insurgency against Italian rule. In the nineteen twenties, 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:57.800 Libyan resistance grew as the Sanusi dynasty joined in alongside 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.960 the Mata Campaign. Just a quick little thing about the 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:05.560 Sanusi dynasty. It was a Muslim political religious tatica which 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:09.279 means a Sufi order and a clan in colonial Libya 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.560 and the Sudan region, founded in Mecca in eighteen thirty 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.360 seven by the Grand Sanusi a k A Sanusi a Kabid, 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:22.359 the Algerian Muhammad ibn Ali A Sanusi. Sanusi was concerned 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.120 with what he saw as both the decline of Islamic 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:29.360 thought and spirituality and the weakening of Muslim political integrity. 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.400 I bring this up to note that by the nineteen 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.200 twenties this dynasty had been around for nearly a century, 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.080 and so when it joins the Libyan resistance alongside Mata Campaign, 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:45.719 it seems very significant. But in ninety one, Italy broke 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:49.960 the resistance. The recombination of major armed operations and concentration 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:55.120 camps for the rebel population is captured and executed. In 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.600 nineteen thirty four, Italy united the provinces as the Colony 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.680 of Libya and steps up Italian migration as part of 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.120 an eventual plan for the incorporation of Libya into a 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:10.240 greater Italy. In two the Allies oust Italians from Libya, 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:14.240 which was then divided into three sections. There was Triplitania 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:18.159 in the northwest, Fasan in the southwest, and Syrenica in 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:21.200 the east. The French to control of Faysan and the 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:25.880 British to control of the remaining Syrenica and Tripolitania. In 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:30.280 nineteen fifty one, Libya becomes a dependent under King Idris 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.600 Elsa Nusi, and in fifty six it grants two American 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:37.919 oil companies a concession of some fourteen million acres. In 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.880 sixty one, King DRIs, who was now in power for 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.280 a decade, opens a one hundred and four mile pipeline 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.560 which links its important oil fields in the interior to 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.040 the Mediterranean Sea, and this makes it possible to export 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.920 Libyan oil for the very first time. I don't know, 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:59.039 but that last sentence of um being able to export 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.120 Libyan oil for the time seems like the beginning of 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:04.560 the end for me. Again, how do we get here? 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.960 This is how? Anyway? Let's continue from the nineteen sixties, 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.880 which introduced the good Daffi era. In nineteen sixty nine, 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.200 King Idris was deposed in a military coup led by 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:19.800 Colonel mom Mudaga Daffi. He pursues a pan Arab agenda 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.640 by attempting to form mergers with several Arab countries, and 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:28.720 also introduces state socialism by nationalizing most economic activity, including 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:33.160 the oil industry. In nineteen seventy, Libya orders the closure 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:35.440 of a British air base in the Buk and the 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:39.880 giant US Wheelis Air Force base in Tripoli. Property belonging 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:44.120 to Italian settlers is also nationalized. In nineteen seventy one, 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:48.920 the national referendum approves the proposed Federation of Arab Republics 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:52.280 the f a R, which was comprised of Libya, Egypt 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:56.080 and Syria. However, the f a R never really takes off, 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:01.040 and in seventy three, Colonel Gaddaffi's declaires a cultural revolution, 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:06.280 which includes the formation of people's committees in schools, hospitals, universities, 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:12.040 workplaces and administrative districts, and then Libyan forces proceed to 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:18.440 occupy the Auzu Strip a northern Chad. In nine Gaddafi 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:21.520 writes and publishes the Greek Book, which was a short 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.920 book setting out the political philosophy of You Guessed It 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.960 Libyan leader mom Mugga Daffy. It is said to have 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.680 been inspired in part by the Little Red Book a 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:35.319 k A quotations from Chairman Mount Stung. An English translation 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.520 was issued by the Libyan People's Committee, and a bilingual 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.280 English slash Arabic edition was issued in London by Martin 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.280 Brian and O'Keefe in nineteen seventy six. During the Libyan 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.600 Civil War, copies of this book were burned by anti 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:54.160 che Daffi demonstrators in Libya. According to British author and 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:59.200 former Greater London Council member George Tremlett, Libyan children spent 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.839 two hours a week studying this book as part of 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:06.560 their curriculum. Excerpts were broadcast every day on television and radio, 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.439 and its slogans were also found on billboards and painted 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:15.120 on buildings in Libya. This book was everywhere and internationally 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:19.200 by Lectures and seminars on the Green Book had been 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:23.720 held at universities and colleges in France, Eastern Europe, Colombia, 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.000 and Venezuela. On a state visit to Libya in two 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:31.280 thousand and eight, Socialist Bolivian President Evo Morales cited the 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.320 Green Book as a major influence on his political beliefs 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:39.160 and policies. The Green Book rejects both capitalism and communism, 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:43.440 as well as representative democracy. Instead, it proposes a type 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:47.200 of direct democracy overseen by the General People's Committee, which 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:52.160 allows direct political participation for all adult citizens. It also 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.720 talks about the crucial importance of complete freedom of speech. 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.280 There's also a paragraph in the book about abolishing money 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.200 that is simil learn to a paragraph and Frederick Engels 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:07.240 Principles of Communism. Goodophi wrote, the final step is when 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.719 the new socialist society reaches the stage where profit and 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:15.280 money disappear. It is through transforming society into a fully 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:19.320 productive society and through reaching in production a level where 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.559 the material needs of the members of society are satisfied. 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:27.160 On that final stage, profit will automatically disappear and there 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.520 will be no need for money. As far as the 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.160 reception of this book goes, though it wasn't great he was. 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:38.640 Ambassador David Mack called the book quite jumbled, with various ideas, 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.959 including quote a fair amount of xenophobia wrapped up in 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.760 a strange mixture. When I told my mom I was 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.800 researching Libya, she immediately mentioned this book to me, and 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.640 she couldn't stop cracking up. She's still in disbelief that 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:56.280 a leader wrote something like this and then forced his 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.520 entire country to read it and basically praise him for it. 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.000 So that was entertaining to watch, I will say that. 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:07.240 But anyway, five years later, in seventy seven, Goddaffi declares 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:11.360 a people's revolution, changing the country's official name from the 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:16.520 Libyan Arab Republic to the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamhadiya. 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.360 He sets up revolutionary committees and this heralds the start 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:26.000 of institutionalized chaos, economic decline, the abusive authoritarian power, and 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:30.040 general arbitrary nous. This is a good place to take 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:35.520 a little break, so b RB okay, we're back. Before 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.360 the break, we talked about Daffi declaring a people's revolution 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.760 and how ultimately all of us led to a lot 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:47.240 of chaos and decline and the abuse of authoritarian power. 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:51.840 So three years later, in nineteen eighty, Libyan troops intervened 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.160 in the civil war in northern Chad. This is where 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:58.400 the U s decides to insert itself, because it always does. 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.560 In nineteen eighty one, the Libyan army has a confrontation 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.640 with the US. The US shoots down to Libyan aircraft, 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:10.240 which it said challenged its warplanes over the Gulf of Certa, 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:14.640 which was claimed by Libya as its territorial water. In 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:19.000 nine four, a British policewoman was shot dead outside the 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.400 Libyan embassy in London while antich A Daffy protests were 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:26.280 taking place. Because of this, the UK breaks off diplomatic 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.600 relations with Libya entirely. But of course the United States 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:34.599 isn't finished yet. It never is. In nine six, the 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:40.040 US bombs Libyan military facilities as well as residential areas 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.680 of Tripoli and Benghazi, killing a hundred and one people. 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.000 They also bombed Goddaffi's house, which killed his adopted daughter. 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.400 The US said that these raids were in response to 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.520 the alleged Libyan involvement in the bombing of a Berlin 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:59.360 disco frequented by US military personnel. Just a small tangent 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.640 about the reported killing of Goaddaffi's adopted daughter, Hannah Goddaffi. 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.640 This has been something that's drawn quite the controversy over 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:11.480 the years. Apparently, Hannah may not have died, or the 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.840 adoption may have been posthumous, or he may have adopted 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.120 a second daughter and given her the same name after 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.960 the first one died. After the Goddaffi family residence, which 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:24.480 was in the bab at Aaiza compound and Tripoli, was 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:28.720 taken by rebels, The New York Times reported evidence, complete 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:32.440 with photographs, of Hannah's life after her declared death, when 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.199 she became a doctor and worked in a Tripoli hospital. 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.360 Her passport was reported as showing a birth date of 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:43.000 November eleven, making her six months old at the time 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.839 of the U S raid. In August afterwo thousand eleven, 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:49.240 the Daily Telegraph reported on the finding of dental records 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:53.280 relating to a Hannah Gaddaffi. This report, which also cites 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:58.160 a spotting of Henna by Chinese officials, cites an unnamed 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.640 Libyan government spokesman as stating that Gaddaffi had adopted a 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:04.400 second daughter and named her Hannah in honor of the 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.400 first one, who had been killed in the ninety six raid. 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.679 In September two thousand eleven, the claim that Hannah had 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:14.040 been killed in the six bombing was further disputed when 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:18.400 a video recorded in nine by Gaddaffi's cameraman Mohammad Adi, 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:23.080 was obtained by The Daily Telegraph. In the video, Roncadaffi 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.480 and other members of the Goddaffi family refer to her 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.880 by her name while playing football at a campsite. Hannah 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.440 is rumored to have fled to Algeria with her mother 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.240 and three siblings. That is some absurd shitt and I 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:38.480 wanted to bring it up because it's such a crazy 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:43.280 controversy that probably needs more digging into. But yeah, let's 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.680 go back to Libya now. As I mentioned in six, 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.800 the US bombed Libya and killed a hundred and one people, 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.320 and again the United States said that these raids were 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.760 in response to the alleged Libyan involvement in the bombing 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:01.360 of a Berlin disco frequented by US military personnel. This 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.600 will become important later on, but anyway, this takes us 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:10.040 to December and the Lockerbie plane bombing. Pan AM Flight 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:14.520 one oh three was a regularly scheduled pan Am transatlantic 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.680 flight from Frankfurt to Detroit via a stopover in London 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.600 and another stopover in New York City on the SPY one. 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.479 While the aircraft wasn't flight over the Scottish town of Lockerbie, 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.320 it was destroyed by a bomb that had been planted 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.920 on board, killing all two hundred and forty three passengers 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.600 and sixteen crew members and what became known as the 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:41.280 Lockerby bombing. Large sections of the aircraft crashed into a 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:45.360 residential street in Lockerbie, which killed eleven residents with a 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.400 total of two hundred and seventy fatalities. It is the 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.840 deadliest terrorist attack in the history of the United Kingdom. 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.680 This bombing, this terrorist attack will come into play later 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:01.160 similar to the Disco bombing. So it's very significant and 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:04.080 also just a terrible thing that happened. And I didn't 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.480 know about this being the deadliest terrorist attack in the 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:10.880 history of the UK. So just a good important history here. 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.800 So in nine nine, Libya, Algeria, Morocco and Martania and 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:20.120 Tunisia formed the Arab Mogreb Union or simply the Mograb 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:24.440 Union in an effort to promote cooperation and economic integration 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:27.520 in a common market. It is a political union and 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.480 economic union trade agreement aiming for economic and future political 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:35.360 unity among Arab countries and states that are located primarily 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:39.080 in the Mogreb in North Africa. It was envisioned initially 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.960 by mon Mugga Duffy as a superstate. The Magreb is 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:46.720 basically the name for Northwest Africa, which includes the western 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.440 part of North Africa and the Arab world. Following a 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.800 three year joint investigation of the Locker rebombing by the 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:58.160 FBI and the Dumfries and Galoway Constabulary a k a. 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:02.880 The territorial police force responsible for Dumfries in Galloway, Scotland 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.760 until April one, two thousand thirteen. After this joint investigation 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.200 with them in the FBI, arrest warrants were issued for 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:14.960 two Libyan nationals in November of nine. In response to this, 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:19.080 in Nino, the U N imposes sanctions on Libya in 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.560 an effort to force it's a handover for trial two 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.320 of its citizens that were suspected of involvement in the 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.600 Locker be bombing. One of whom of these people was 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.920 a government employee. More on this later as we go on. 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.760 In nine four, Libya returns the always was stripped to Chad, 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:40.040 which they had been occupying since nineteen seventy three. In 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:45.639 nine Godofi expels around thirty thousand Palestinians and protests of 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:49.880 the Oslo Accords between the Palestinian Liberation Organization the PLO 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:54.879 and Israel. A quick refresher here. There are two Osslo 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:58.280 accords that make up the Asslo Accords. The first also 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:02.280 accord was signed in Washington, the Sea, and the second 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:07.399 one was signed in Tabia, Egypt. They marked the start 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.720 of the Oslo Process, which was a supposed peace process 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.800 aimed at achieving a peace treaty based on Resolution two 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.639 forty two and Resolution three three eight of the United 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.480 Nations Security Council and fulfilling the quote right of the 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:25.320 Palestinian people to self determination. The Oslo Process began after 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:29.480 secret negotiations in Oslo, Norway, and resulted in both the 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.840 recognition of Israel by the PLO and the recognition by 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.840 Israel of the p l O as the representative of 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:40.200 the Palestinian people and as a partner in bilateral negotiations. 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.480 The vast majority of Arabs and Arab countries disagreed with 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.840 the Oslo Accords because they viewed it as defeat, as 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.800 a surrender. My mom explained to me that a lot 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.040 of Arrows didn't like or trust Yasid Artifact, who was 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.840 the PLO leader during the Oslo peace process. A lot 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.720 of people still don't like him to be and much 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.040 of this dislike stemmed from his signing of the Oslo Accords. 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:06.560 He died in two thousand and four at the age 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:11.159 of seventy. We'll talk more about good Daffi's relationship to 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:14.720 Artifact and how this changed after the Oslo Accords in 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.040 our next episode, but for now, I'm going to leave 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:37.160 you here. Have a have a good day. Goodbye, hello, 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.960 and welcome back. It could happen here. It's me again, 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:44.760 It's Sharene and we're going to continue our discussion of 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:49.720 Libya that we started yesterday. And um, yeah, I hope 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:51.960 it's been interesting and I hope it continues to be 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.120 interesting because I'm not going to stop. Okay, we left 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:59.280 off our last episode after we talked about the Aslo 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.399 Accords about how a lot of people distrusted and didn't 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.560 like Yasar Rat a fact, who was the PLO leader 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.200 during the Oslo Accords or the Oslo peace process. Rather 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.400 mom Mud Gaddaffi was one of those people what disagreed 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.240 with signing the accords because he viewed it as a surrender, 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:21.040 as a defeat, and because of this, Gaddaffi expelled around 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:25.560 thirty thousand Palestinians in protest at the Oslo Accords between 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.320 the p l O a k A the Palestinian Liberation 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:32.520 Organization in Israel. So I do think it's notable to 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:35.960 mention that before Oslo Gaddaffi was on good terms without 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.159 a fact. Out of fact, was on a plane and 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.560 route to Tunisia and he was accompanied by his bodyguards 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.000 and some assistants. The flight was scheduled to land in 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:50.560 the Karifa Oasis air fields southeast of Libya to refuel. However, 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.399 intense sandstorms impeded the vision of the pilots, who were 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:57.760 forced to adjust the flight route. One hour and forty 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.080 minutes after takeoff, the control tower in the Libyan capital 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:05.480 received the following message special flight to Khartoum to Tunists 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:09.320 cannot land, we fly on to Estada. We will attempt 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:13.439 an emergency landing. Five minutes later, the plane disappeared from 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:18.120 Libyan radar screens and wireless telecommunications were off. A state 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:22.480 of emergency was declared. International media outlets immediately reported that 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.240 out of Fats plane had disappeared in the Libyan desert. 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.440 For approximately fifteen hours. It was thought that the plane 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:32.399 had crashed and that out of Fat had died. It 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:35.000 turned out, however, that the plane hit a sand dune 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.240 in the Libyan desert and out of Fat was thrown 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.440 a distance of thirty meters. The two pilots and the 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:44.320 mechanic perished in this accident, and all the passengers were 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:48.080 found wounded but alive, including out of Fat. I bring 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:50.159 this up only to mention that I found a photo 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.840 of out of Fat recovering in a hospital after this crash, 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:56.360 covered in bandages, and Gaddafi is at his bedside. They're 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:59.880 even holding hands in the photo. But that didn't matter 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:02.879 to Gadaffi after OSLO, which he viewed again as a 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:06.240 sort of betrayal to the Arab world. So back to 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:12.200 when Gadaffi expels about thirty thousand Palestinians and protests of 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:17.080 Auti Fat signing the OSLO accords, Gaddafi urged other Arab 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.520 countries to follow his example and send home all Palestinians 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:23.720 to expose what he said was Israel's plan to create 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:28.640 a Palestinian state in name only. Speaking at a makeshift 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:32.280 camp in the desert near the border with Egypt, Ladafi 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.399 told a crowd of thousands that his expulsion of thousands 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.399 of Palestinians was the greatest service to the aims of 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:43.159 establishing a Palestinian homeland. In the speech, he said, the 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:47.440 Zionist plan is to create a Palestine without Palestinians, he said, 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.040 adding that other Arab countries are taking part in the 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:55.080 Zionist plan by allowing the Palestinians to stay in their land. 0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:59.600 He very publicly criticized atifats signing of the accords with 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:02.720 Israel and handing over authority in the West Bank to 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:08.320 the Palestinian authority. His speech continued saying, overnight they told 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:11.200 us that Israel was no longer the enemy we knew, 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:14.639 they said the Palestinian cause was over. And because Libya 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:17.879 believes them, it has asked the Palestinians to return to 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:21.879 their home. So a little bit passive aggressive there, or 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:26.879 maybe are really aggressive nonetheless, he disagreed with also accords 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:29.200 and without effect, and a lot of other Arab countries 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:34.040 did also. In Gadaffi handed over the two Lockerbie suspects 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:38.320 for trial at campsized in the Netherlands after protracted negotiations 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:42.520 and UN sanctions. The UN sanctions were suspended and diplomatic 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:45.800 relations with the UK was restored after these suspects were 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:49.040 handed over for trial. In January two thousand and one, 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:52.320 the Netherlands finds one of the two Libyans accused of 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:56.320 the Lockerbie bombing and Marahi, guilty and sentences him to 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:59.520 life imprisonment. He was freed in two thousand nine on 0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:02.359 compact I shouldn't release grounds before dying of cancer in 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:05.840 two thousand and twelve. The other suspect, Bahima, is found 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:10.040 not guilty and freed after the trial. In January two 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:12.920 thousand and two, Libya and the US say they held 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:16.600 talks to mend relations after years of hostility over what 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:21.400 the Americans termed as Libya's sponsorship of terrorism. A year later, 0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:25.240 in January two thousand and three, Libya is elected chairman 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:28.720 of the UN Human Rights Commission, despite opposition from the 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:32.359 US and Human rights groups in August up to thousand 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:36.080 and three. Seven months after this, Gaddafi accepted responsibility for 0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:38.040 the locker by bombing and a letter to the u 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.360 N Security Council and Libya signed a deal worth two 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:44.960 point seven billion dollars and paid compensation to the families 0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:47.520 of the victims, although he maintained that he had never 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:51.399 given the order for the attack. Acceptance of responsibility was 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:54.240 part of a series of requirements laid out by UN 0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:58.440 resolution for sactions against Libya to be lifted. Libya said 0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:02.040 it had to accept responsibility due to Marati's status as 0:25:02.040 --> 0:25:05.840 a government employee. In September two thousand and three, a 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:09.520 month later, the u N Security Council votes to lift sanctions, 0:25:09.640 --> 0:25:12.240 and in December of that same year, Libya said it 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:16.439 will abandon programs to develop weapons of mass destruction. At 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:20.280 this point, Gaddaffi has been in power for many, many decades, 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:23.840 and similar to other dictators, he developed a cult of 0:25:23.960 --> 0:25:27.200 personality and his pictures were seen all over the country 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:31.240 with his quotes. Remember the Green Book, Yes, that book. 0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:33.560 He had been in power for so long and this 0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:38.920 book was still distributed and praised, and he stayed in power. 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:42.920 Like most dictators do. In March up two thousand and four, 0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:46.200 British Prime Minister Tony Blair visits Libya, and this is 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:51.080 the first such visit since nineteen forty three. Gaddafi was 0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:54.760 clearly working on a return to respectability for Libya, and 0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:57.680 in August after thousand and four, Libya agreed to pay 0:25:57.800 --> 0:26:00.720 thirty five million dollars to compensate the victims of the 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:05.119 bombing in the Berlin nightclub in n We talked about 0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:08.040 this briefly in our previous episode when I mentioned that 0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:10.800 in eighty six the US bombed Libya and killed a 0:26:10.880 --> 0:26:13.479 hundred and one people and said that these raids were 0:26:13.480 --> 0:26:16.840 in response to the alleged Libyan involvement of this bombing 0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:20.600 of a Berlin disco that was frequented by US military personnel. 0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:24.240 Fast forwarding to where we currently are two thousand and four, 0:26:24.600 --> 0:26:27.600 Libya has agreed to pay thirty five million to compensate 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:30.439 these victims. This is a good place to take our 0:26:30.480 --> 0:26:36.480 first little break. Don't go anywhere, b RB. Okay, we're back. 0:26:37.080 --> 0:26:40.240 We're now in January two thousand and five and Libya's 0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:44.000 first auction of oil and gas exploration licenses heralds the 0:26:44.080 --> 0:26:46.879 return of US energy companies for the first time in 0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:50.280 more than twenty years. In February of two thousand and six, 0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:53.479 at least ten people are killed in clashes with police 0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:56.880 in Benghazi and part of a wave of international protests 0:26:56.960 --> 0:27:00.000 by some Muslims who are angered by a Danish newspaper 0:27:00.119 --> 0:27:03.640 risk cartoon depictions of the prophet Muhammad. Three months later, 0:27:03.880 --> 0:27:06.119 in May two thousand and six, the US says it 0:27:06.240 --> 0:27:10.160 is restoring full diplomatic ties with Libya, and in two 0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:12.560 thousand and eight, a lot of things happen. In two 0:27:12.600 --> 0:27:15.920 thousand and eight, first, Libya took over the one month 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:19.960 rotating presidency of the UN Security Council, marking a huge 0:27:20.040 --> 0:27:23.560 step returning to respectability after decades as a pariah of 0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:27.120 the West. Libya and the US also signed an agreement 0:27:27.280 --> 0:27:30.560 committing each side to compensate all victims of bombing attacks 0:27:30.640 --> 0:27:35.560 on the other citizens. Italian Prime Minister Sylvia Brosconi apologizes 0:27:35.600 --> 0:27:39.240 to Libya for damage inflicted by Italy during the colonial era, 0:27:39.600 --> 0:27:42.719 and they sign a five billion dollar investment deal by 0:27:42.760 --> 0:27:46.359 way of compensation. U S Secretary of State canti Is 0:27:46.400 --> 0:27:49.240 A Rice makes a historic visit in two thousand and eight, 0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:52.639 the highest level US official to visit Libya since nineteen 0:27:52.720 --> 0:27:56.520 fifty three. Rice says relations between the West and Libya 0:27:56.560 --> 0:28:00.639 have entered quote a new phase. In February two thousand 0:28:00.720 --> 0:28:04.080 and nine, Gadaffi is elected Chairman of the African Union 0:28:04.160 --> 0:28:07.800 by leaders meeting in Ethiopia. He sets out the ambition 0:28:07.920 --> 0:28:11.040 of the United States of Africa, even embracing the Caribbean. 0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:15.080 In June of that year, a thousand and nine, Gaddafi 0:28:15.119 --> 0:28:19.040 pays his first state visit to Italy, Libya's former colonial 0:28:19.200 --> 0:28:22.959 ruler and trading partner. What a plot twist? Wow? Who 0:28:23.000 --> 0:28:25.920 would have thought a century prior. In two thousand and ten, 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:29.240 Russia agrees to sell Libya weapons in a deal worth 0:28:29.400 --> 0:28:32.600 one point eight billion dollars. The deal is thought to 0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:36.920 include fighter jets, tanks, and air defense systems. The European 0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:41.080 Union and Libya sign an agreement designed to slow illegal migration. 0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:45.400 That same year, British oil company BP confirms it is 0:28:45.400 --> 0:28:48.880 about to begin drilling off of the Libyan coast. In 0:28:48.880 --> 0:28:51.640 two thousand eleven, you start to see the seeds of 0:28:51.840 --> 0:28:55.280 an anti Gadaffi uprising, and Libyans rose up against the 0:28:55.360 --> 0:28:58.440 rule of Gaddaffi. And many took up arms. You might 0:28:58.560 --> 0:29:01.560 know that two thousand eleven more the beginning of many 0:29:01.600 --> 0:29:05.400 Arab springs in many countries, including Libya, and I guess 0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:07.040 this is also a good time to remind you that 0:29:07.160 --> 0:29:10.680 Gaddafi was always a dictator and ruled with fear, as 0:29:10.760 --> 0:29:14.880 dictators do. A lot happened in two thousand eleven. In February, 0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:18.240 inspired by revolt in other Arab countries, especially neighbor in 0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:22.080 Egypt and Tunisia, violent protests break out in Benghazi and 0:29:22.200 --> 0:29:25.720 spread to other cities, leading to escalating clashes between security 0:29:25.800 --> 0:29:30.320 forces and anti Goodaffi rebels. The government security forces responded 0:29:30.360 --> 0:29:34.160 by opening fire on the protesters. As an initially peaceful 0:29:34.200 --> 0:29:38.320 protest movement transformed into a fully fledged armed uprising against 0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:41.960 his forty two year rule. Gaddafi pledged to chase down 0:29:42.080 --> 0:29:44.600 the cock roaches and the rats who had taken up 0:29:44.720 --> 0:29:48.240 arms against him quote inch by inch, room by room, 0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:53.240 home by home, alleyway by alleyway, person by person. A 0:29:53.400 --> 0:29:57.360 brutal conflict began, with pro Gaddafi forces and discriminately showing 0:29:57.400 --> 0:30:01.200 civilian areas, arresting thousands of protests, ers and other suspective 0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:04.440 of supporting the opposition, holding many in secret attention and 0:30:04.640 --> 0:30:09.000 carrying out summary executions. In March two eleven, the U 0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:12.120 N Security Council authorizes a no fly zone over Libya 0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:16.120 and air strikes to protect civilians, over which NATO assumes command. 0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:20.400 In the months that follow, Libyan rebels initially captured territory, 0:30:20.720 --> 0:30:24.240 but are then forced back by better armed pro Gadaffi forces. 0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:28.640 In July, the International Contact Group on Libya formally recognizes 0:30:28.720 --> 0:30:32.720 the main opposition group, the National Transitional Council of the NTC, 0:30:33.280 --> 0:30:36.880 as the legitimate government of Libya. In August of thousand eleven, 0:30:37.000 --> 0:30:40.600 Gaddafi goes into hiding after rebels swarm into his fortress 0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:44.640 compound in Tripoli. Let's take our second break here and 0:30:45.040 --> 0:30:47.280 we'll come back and talk more of what happened in 0:30:47.320 --> 0:30:49.880 thousand eleven, because it seems like it's the year that 0:30:50.000 --> 0:30:54.920 never ended, b RB, and we're back. So as I 0:30:55.040 --> 0:30:57.560 mentioned before the break in August, at two thousand eleven, 0:30:57.720 --> 0:31:01.280 Gaddaffi went into hiding after the bubbles swarmed his fortress 0:31:01.400 --> 0:31:05.880 compound in Tripoli. In September, the African Union joins sixty 0:31:05.920 --> 0:31:09.760 countries which have recognized the NTC as the new Libyan authority. 0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:14.800 On October two thousand eleven, Gaddaffi is captured and killed 0:31:14.920 --> 0:31:18.600 as rebel fighters take his hometown of Serta after air 0:31:18.680 --> 0:31:22.840 burst bombs are fired from a NATO warplane, considerating dozens 0:31:22.880 --> 0:31:26.640 of Goadaffi fighters. Gaddaffi and other survivors are nearby a 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:30.560 walled villa compound and soon thereafter they try to escape 0:31:30.680 --> 0:31:34.080 through the fields and two drainage pipes underneath a major 0:31:34.280 --> 0:31:38.080 road nearby. That is where the mus Rata military has 0:31:38.080 --> 0:31:41.440 found them. Musurata is a city in Libya, by the way. 0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:44.800 When militia fighters found good Daffi in his inner circle 0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:47.760 hiding next to the drainage pipes, one of his bodyguards 0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:50.520 threw a hand grenade at them, and this hand grenade 0:31:50.640 --> 0:31:53.800 bounced off the concrete wall and exploded in the midst 0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:59.480 of the leadership circle, killing Gaddaffi's defense minister of Ubucca Unus. Yes, 0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:03.200 actually happened. You had to have been there. This explosion 0:32:03.480 --> 0:32:07.240 sprayed shrapnel that wounded Gaddaffi and others, according to the 0:32:07.320 --> 0:32:10.400 survivors of the incident whom the Human Rights Watch interviewed. 0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:13.880 Gaddafi was immediately set upon by mus Rata fighters, who 0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:16.960 literally wounded him with a bayonet in his butt and 0:32:17.040 --> 0:32:20.240 then began pummeling him with kicks and blows. By the 0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:23.920 time Gaddaffi was loaded into an ambulance and transported to Musrata, 0:32:24.200 --> 0:32:28.360 his body appeared lifeless. It remains unclear whether he died 0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:31.680 from this violence, the shrapnel wounds, or from being shot 0:32:31.800 --> 0:32:35.520 later as some have claimed. Ultimately he died is the point. 0:32:36.000 --> 0:32:39.640 In that same morning of October, ms Ratta militia members 0:32:39.680 --> 0:32:43.400 separately apprehended mon Adoffi's son, must to him he was 0:32:43.440 --> 0:32:45.880 in charge of the military defensive Surta and had led 0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:48.280 the doomed convoy, and he tried to flee from the 0:32:48.320 --> 0:32:51.960 scene of the fighting. Three days later, the NTC declared 0:32:52.040 --> 0:32:55.400 Libya to be officially liberated and the announced plans to 0:32:55.480 --> 0:33:01.120 hold elections within eight months. November thousand eleven, Saifa Islam, 0:33:01.280 --> 0:33:05.280 the fugitive son of former Libyan leader ron Moodgadafi, is captured, 0:33:05.680 --> 0:33:09.040 becoming the last key Gadaffi family member to be seized 0:33:09.200 --> 0:33:13.080 or killed. Between January and March of two thousand and twelve, 0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:16.640 clashes erupt between former rebel forces in Benghazi in a 0:33:16.720 --> 0:33:20.480 sign of discontent with the NTC. The NTC again stands 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:24.640 for a National Transitional Council, so when Ghazi based NTC 0:33:24.840 --> 0:33:28.400 officials campaign to re establish autonomy for the region, further 0:33:28.520 --> 0:33:32.360 increasing tension with the NTC in Tripoli. In August, this 0:33:32.480 --> 0:33:36.880 transitional government hands power to the General National Congress, which 0:33:36.960 --> 0:33:40.880 was elected in July. There's still significant unrest amongst civilians 0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:43.440 during this time in regards to a net leadership, and 0:33:43.520 --> 0:33:47.960 in February, protests erupt in response to the General National 0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:52.680 Congress's refusal to disband after they decided upon mandate expires. 0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:57.800 In May, the Libyan National Army renegade General Khalifa Hafta 0:33:58.240 --> 0:34:01.920 launches a military assault that includes air strikes against militant 0:34:02.000 --> 0:34:05.000 Islamist groups in Benghazi, and he tries to seize the 0:34:05.120 --> 0:34:08.839 parliament building, accusing the Prime minister at the time, Prime 0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:12.840 Minister Ahmed ma Teg, of being in thrall to Islamist groups. 0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:17.080 In June, Prime Minister mateg resigns after the Supreme Court 0:34:17.239 --> 0:34:21.800 rules his appointment illegal. A new parliament is chosen in elections, 0:34:21.880 --> 0:34:25.320 but the election is marred by a low turnout attributed 0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:29.600 to security fears and boycotts and the Islamists suffer heavy defeat. 0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:33.080 Fighting breaks out between forces loyal to the outgoing g 0:34:33.280 --> 0:34:37.200 n C and a new parliament. In July, the u 0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:40.719 N staff pulls out and the embassy shut down and 0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:46.000 foreigners are evacuated as the security situation deteriorates. Among all 0:34:46.000 --> 0:34:50.160 of this fighting, the Tripoli International Airport is also largely destroyed. 0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:54.600 Unsat As Shadiawa, which was a Solifus Islamist militia and 0:34:54.680 --> 0:34:58.120 al Qaeda aligned group that advocated for the implementation of 0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:01.400 sharia law across Libya see his control of most of 0:35:01.480 --> 0:35:05.640 Benghazi at this time. Later that year, in October, the 0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:08.960 u went on boy to Libya. Bernardina Leone proposed a 0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:12.480 National Unity government for Libya, and this new government was 0:35:12.560 --> 0:35:15.920 to be led by the Presidential Council of fayez As 0:35:16.080 --> 0:35:20.360 Sattage as prime Minister and three deputies from the country's eastern, 0:35:20.520 --> 0:35:24.479 Western and southern regions, as well as two ministers. UN 0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:28.200 Security General ben key Moon visits Libya during this time 0:35:28.280 --> 0:35:30.960 to continue the u N broker talks between the new 0:35:31.040 --> 0:35:34.880 parliament and the government based in Tarbuk and Islamis Libya 0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:38.440 DA Militia's holding Tripoli. The UN says that hundreds of 0:35:38.560 --> 0:35:42.360 thousands of civilians are displaced by these clashes and this 0:35:42.520 --> 0:35:45.600 takes us to but I think we're going to stop 0:35:45.640 --> 0:35:49.759 for today because a lot happens in and Uh, I'd 0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:53.680 rather not split it up into two episodes. So that's 0:35:53.680 --> 0:35:55.759 where I'm going to leave you guys for today, and 0:35:56.280 --> 0:36:16.520 UH you'll hear me tomorrow if you want to Foodbye, Hello, 0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:19.960 and welcome back to It could happen here. You are 0:36:20.040 --> 0:36:24.479 listening to Sharne and our last installment of our Little 0:36:24.560 --> 0:36:28.520 Libya series. We're just gonna jump right back in. Our 0:36:28.600 --> 0:36:32.200 last episode ended off in and Libya when the U 0:36:32.360 --> 0:36:36.440 N Security General Van Ki Moon visited Libya to continue 0:36:36.560 --> 0:36:39.239 U N broker talks between the new parliament that was 0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:42.880 assigned and the government based in Torbrook and the Islamist 0:36:42.920 --> 0:36:46.359 Libya DON militias that were holding Tripoli at this time. 0:36:46.480 --> 0:36:49.160 The UN says that hundreds of thousands of civilians have 0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:54.160 been displaced by clashes. The Islamic State extremist militia then 0:36:54.239 --> 0:36:57.200 seizes control of the port of Journa and eastern Libya 0:36:57.719 --> 0:37:01.800 in January of the Libyan army and Tripoli based Militia 0:37:01.840 --> 0:37:06.280 Alliance declare a partial ceasefire after U N sponsored talks 0:37:06.360 --> 0:37:11.719 in Geneva. In February of Egyptian jets bomb Islamic State 0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:14.680 targets in Derna. A day after the group they're released 0:37:14.719 --> 0:37:18.200 a video showing the beheading of twenty one Egyptian Christians. 0:37:18.920 --> 0:37:21.759 The Libyan army offensive to retake Derna in March of 0:37:21.840 --> 0:37:25.239 that year fails to dislodge the group. The Islamic State 0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:28.320 establishes control over the poort city of Certa, which is 0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:32.359 halfway along the coast between Tripoli and Benghazi. In July, 0:37:33.480 --> 0:37:37.160 a TRIPLEI court sentences Gaddaffi's son say And Islam and 0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:40.400 eight other former officials to death for the crimes committed 0:37:40.480 --> 0:37:43.800 during the twenty eleven uprising against his father. He is 0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:48.719 later freed by an armed group. In January, the UN 0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:53.480 announces a new Tunisia based interim government, but neither Tobruck 0:37:53.640 --> 0:37:58.480 nor Tripoli parliaments agree to recognize its authority. Libyan politician 0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:02.400 Fayez Sarage is now the Chairman of the Presidential Council 0:38:02.440 --> 0:38:05.800 of Libya and Prime Minister of the Government of National Accord. 0:38:06.640 --> 0:38:10.160 The Islamic State group attacks Rasla Nuth oil terminal and 0:38:10.239 --> 0:38:14.040 threatens to move on to Brega and Towbrook. In September 0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:18.279 of sixteen, the Libyan National Army of Ralifa Haftad, who 0:38:18.440 --> 0:38:22.440 was described as a renegade general, seizes key oil export 0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:26.880 terminals in East Libya. Haftad is a Libyan American politician, 0:38:27.239 --> 0:38:30.600 military officer, and the commander of a Towbrook based Libyan 0:38:30.760 --> 0:38:34.600 National Army. A year and a half prior, on March second, 0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:38.600 he was appointed commander of the armed forces loyal to 0:38:38.680 --> 0:38:43.960 the elected legislative body, the Libyan House of Representatives. In 0:38:44.080 --> 0:38:49.080 December of pro government forces oust Islamic State militants from 0:38:49.080 --> 0:38:51.920 the coastal town of Surta, which they had seized eighteen 0:38:52.000 --> 0:38:56.600 months previously. In July seventeen, the Islamic State is ejected 0:38:56.640 --> 0:39:00.640 from Benghazi after three years of fighting. A year later, 0:39:01.000 --> 0:39:05.480 in July, Khalifa Hadad claims that his forces are fully 0:39:05.520 --> 0:39:09.040 in control of Derna, the last Islamic stronghold in the 0:39:09.160 --> 0:39:11.600 East and the only city in the region thus far 0:39:11.760 --> 0:39:15.719 outside his control. In April of twenty nineteen, weh DoD, 0:39:15.760 --> 0:39:19.759 a Libyan National Army, advances on Tripoli, sparking clashes with 0:39:19.840 --> 0:39:23.560 the forces of the internationally recognized Government of National Accord. 0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:27.880 In June of the u N back government drives forces 0:39:27.960 --> 0:39:30.560 out of Tarhuna, which was their last stronghold in the 0:39:30.640 --> 0:39:34.600 west of the country near Tripoli. At this point, Fayezes 0:39:34.640 --> 0:39:37.560 Saage had been Prime Minister of the Government of National 0:39:37.640 --> 0:39:42.120 Accord since its installment in as part of a u 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:46.960 N led political agreement. Fighting was occurring between saage loyalists 0:39:47.160 --> 0:39:49.840 and those who opposed him, and Satage stated that he 0:39:49.920 --> 0:39:52.080 would be stepping down from his position by the end 0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:56.600 of October of This came after a month of protests 0:39:56.680 --> 0:40:01.719 in Tripoli. On October thirty one, however, Al Sadaj rescinded 0:40:01.920 --> 0:40:06.120 his decision to resign, but after the Libyan Political Dialogue Forum, 0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:10.480 he transferred his powers. On March fifteenth of one, so 0:40:10.600 --> 0:40:14.600 in marshaw One Abduhmi and Biba took over as prime 0:40:14.680 --> 0:40:17.080 Minister of the g n A the u N backed 0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:21.200 Government of National Accord in Tripoli. In the Libyan Political 0:40:21.320 --> 0:40:25.120 Dialogue Forum procedure for choosing a unified executive authority to 0:40:25.280 --> 0:40:29.400 lead into the December twenty one Libyan general election, Muhammad 0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:32.640 and Menphi ran on a joint ticket with abdud Hamiddiba 0:40:33.040 --> 0:40:36.960 as Prime Minister and Mussa Elkoni and Abdula Lafi as 0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:40.839 members of the Presidential Council. As Menphee serves as head 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:44.840 of State. Human Rights Watch reported that hundreds of residents 0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:48.000 in the Libyan town of Tahuna were abducted or reported 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:52.520 missing between ten and twenty twenty after the local Elkanni 0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:56.279 militia known as the Kenayette, took control of the town. 0:40:56.360 --> 0:41:02.640 In residents reported that the militia off and abducted, detained, tortured, killed, 0:41:02.760 --> 0:41:05.759 and disappeared people who opposed them or were suspected of 0:41:05.840 --> 0:41:09.520 doing so. Some said that the militia also sees private 0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:13.919 property and stole their money. After the armed conflict. In June, 0:41:14.840 --> 0:41:17.359 there was a discovery of mass graves in the town 0:41:17.440 --> 0:41:20.960 of Tarhuna. Libyan authorities said they had retrieved more than 0:41:21.040 --> 0:41:24.040 two hundred bodies from more than five hundred and fifty 0:41:24.080 --> 0:41:28.239 five mass graves as of October of last year. Additionally, 0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:31.880 as of October of last year, the International Organization for 0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:36.480 Migration the IOM, estimated there were almost four hundred thousand 0:41:36.600 --> 0:41:40.439 internally displaced people in Libya. Including three hundred thousand people 0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:43.920 displaced since the beginning of the April twenty nineteen conflict 0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:48.000 in Tripoli and the surrounding areas. The displaced include many 0:41:48.120 --> 0:41:50.719 of the forty eight thousand former residents of the town 0:41:50.880 --> 0:41:54.560 of who in eleven were driven out by armed groups 0:41:54.600 --> 0:41:57.520 predominantly from z Rata because of their support for the 0:41:57.640 --> 0:42:02.719 former Baffy government. The spite reconciliation agreements with ms RATA authorities, 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:05.480 They have been deterred from returning by the massive and 0:42:05.600 --> 0:42:10.560 deliberate destruction of the town and infrastructure between twenty seventeen, 0:42:10.960 --> 0:42:14.160 predominantly by malicious from ms RATA, and the scarcity of 0:42:14.239 --> 0:42:17.840 public services by the g n A. To describe the 0:42:17.960 --> 0:42:22.839 election process in Libya as a clusterfunk would be an understatement, 0:42:23.640 --> 0:42:26.279 and as far as the most recent election or the 0:42:26.360 --> 0:42:31.000 attempt for the most recent election in various postponements have 0:42:31.080 --> 0:42:35.640 resulted from disputes about fundamental rules governing the election, including 0:42:35.840 --> 0:42:39.000 the voting timetable, the eligibility of the main candidates, and 0:42:39.160 --> 0:42:42.080 the eventual powers of the next president and the parliament. 0:42:42.840 --> 0:42:46.360 Its registration for the presidential candidates opened on November seventh 0:42:46.440 --> 0:42:51.120 of last year and lasted until November. In this time, 0:42:51.520 --> 0:42:56.400 several people registered their candidacy, including Zarifa Eslam Cal Daffi, 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:59.840 the son of the former Libyan leader Momma Daffy, so 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:03.839 Lifa Hafta, the commander of the Libyan National Army at 0:43:03.920 --> 0:43:07.239 F nine, the chairman of the La Libya party, and 0:43:07.320 --> 0:43:10.799 the current Prime Minister of Hamid de Baba. These men 0:43:10.880 --> 0:43:13.600 all register their candidacy in November of last year, and 0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:18.080 in total, ninety six men and two women registered as candidates. 0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:22.280 A preliminary list of seventy three presidential candidates was released 0:43:22.400 --> 0:43:25.560 by the h n e C the High National Election 0:43:25.600 --> 0:43:30.680 Commission on November. Five candidates were disqualified from the election, 0:43:30.840 --> 0:43:34.040 including study for the La Daffy and a bunch of 0:43:34.120 --> 0:43:36.239 others that I'm not going to say their names because 0:43:36.239 --> 0:43:38.360 I haven't said them yet and you don't need to know, 0:43:39.000 --> 0:43:41.719 but ultimately, Ladafi and a bunch of other people were 0:43:41.760 --> 0:43:46.120 disqualified under Article ten seven of the Electoral Law for 0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:50.359 having been convicted of a crime. Daffi was also disqualified 0:43:50.440 --> 0:43:54.520 under Article seve for not providing a certificate showing a 0:43:54.640 --> 0:43:59.720 clean criminal record. Another candidate, Zeidan, was disqualified under Article 0:43:59.800 --> 0:44:02.640 ten and two for having more than one nationality and 0:44:02.920 --> 0:44:07.320 under Article eleven for not having five thousand supporters. According 0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:11.120 to the electoral law, any appeals against the disqualifications are 0:44:11.200 --> 0:44:15.759 to be decided by the judiciary. On November twenty eight, 0:44:16.000 --> 0:44:19.279 the Tripoli Appeals Court rejected the candidacy of current Prime 0:44:19.320 --> 0:44:23.080 Minister of de Haney Debaba after accepting two appeals against 0:44:23.120 --> 0:44:26.920 his bid. The first appeal was filed by three presidential 0:44:27.000 --> 0:44:30.640 candidates as well as to Libyan Political Dialogue Forum members, 0:44:30.960 --> 0:44:34.840 while the second appeal was filed by presidential candidate Fatty Basha. 0:44:35.719 --> 0:44:39.560 On November thirty, Libyan Field Marshal a k a renegade 0:44:39.719 --> 0:44:43.520 General Khalifa haf Dad was disqualified from the presidential election. 0:44:43.719 --> 0:44:46.600 After these, a we A Court of First Instance accepted 0:44:46.640 --> 0:44:50.960 an appeal against his candidacy. On December one, four candidates 0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:55.200 were disqualified by the h n EC, including Debiba, and 0:44:55.760 --> 0:44:57.640 they were placed back on the ballot by a Tripoli 0:44:57.680 --> 0:45:02.320 a Court of National Appeal. December two, Sayf and sm 0:45:02.360 --> 0:45:04.680 Go Daffy was placed back on the ballot after the 0:45:04.760 --> 0:45:08.400 subad Court of Appeal accepted his appeal against his qualification 0:45:08.520 --> 0:45:13.520 from the list of candidates. See clusterfuck understatement, and then 0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:17.560 on December six, Kadifata returned to the presidential election after 0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:20.920 the Tripoli Court of Appeal rejected in November thirty ruling 0:45:21.200 --> 0:45:25.439 by the Lower Zawea Court. Let's take our first break 0:45:26.160 --> 0:45:29.960 for the love of God h B r B and 0:45:30.040 --> 0:45:32.080 we're back. And I don't believe in God, but anyway. 0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:35.320 Days before the first round was scheduled to take place, 0:45:35.480 --> 0:45:37.600 the election was already up in the air, with no 0:45:37.719 --> 0:45:40.560 official list of candidates presented to the public and no 0:45:40.760 --> 0:45:44.800 formal campaigning underway. On December twenty two, the Parliament of 0:45:44.880 --> 0:45:49.520 Libya confirmed the postponement. The chairman of the Election committee said, 0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:54.000 after consulting the technical, judicial and security reports, we inform 0:45:54.080 --> 0:45:56.880 you of the impossibility of holding the elections on the 0:45:57.040 --> 0:46:03.040 day of providing for by the electoral law, and in 0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:07.080 this statement he didn't give a new date. Foreign Policy 0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:09.840 summarized that the causes for the delay were that quote, 0:46:09.960 --> 0:46:14.120 the process was beleaguered by two interrelated issues, differences over 0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:16.760 the idea of holding a presidential election in the current 0:46:16.840 --> 0:46:20.799 context and the resulting failure to reach the required consensus 0:46:20.920 --> 0:46:25.800 on a framework for elections. The United Kingdom, France Germany, 0:46:25.960 --> 0:46:28.680 Italy and the United States urged Libya to set a 0:46:28.760 --> 0:46:32.239 new date for the delayed presidential election quickly. The h 0:46:32.560 --> 0:46:35.480 n e C insisted that the House of Representatives is 0:46:35.520 --> 0:46:38.160 responsible for setting a new date. The Speaker of the 0:46:38.200 --> 0:46:42.440 House Representatives said the Election Committee responsible for overseeing elections 0:46:42.640 --> 0:46:46.480 must set a definitive date for postponed presidential and legislative 0:46:46.520 --> 0:46:50.960 polls by the end of January of two, like several 0:46:51.000 --> 0:46:55.000 months ago. The UN Special Advisor on Libya, Stephanie Williams, 0:46:55.080 --> 0:46:58.160 who has pursued a new election date, told the AP 0:46:58.440 --> 0:47:01.880 that it was still quote very reasonable and possible for 0:47:02.000 --> 0:47:04.880 the country's two point eight million voters to cast their 0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:08.160 ballots by June of two, which would be in line 0:47:08.239 --> 0:47:12.600 with the U N brokered roadmap. On January twenty three, two, 0:47:12.760 --> 0:47:16.440 Interim Prime Minister Abdul Debaba called for constitution to be 0:47:16.640 --> 0:47:21.320 established before holding the delayed presidential and parliamentary elections. A 0:47:21.440 --> 0:47:25.279 month later, on February two, Debaba announced a plan to 0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:29.560 hold the elections in June of two. He later proposed 0:47:29.600 --> 0:47:33.800 holding the elections at the end of two so he 0:47:33.920 --> 0:47:36.840 just keeps on postponing it, because why not. You're in power. 0:47:36.960 --> 0:47:39.520 You don't want to give it up. Sure. In July 0:47:39.840 --> 0:47:43.840 of twenty two, the prime Minister, the interim Prime Minister 0:47:44.040 --> 0:47:48.520 Abiba made an unexpected alliance with his former enemy, the 0:47:48.640 --> 0:47:52.480 Eastern warlord renegade general Hadifa haf Dad, in a bid 0:47:52.600 --> 0:47:55.839 to cement a fragile ceasefire and end a month long 0:47:56.000 --> 0:47:59.839 oil blockade. Less than three years ago, half Dad self 0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:03.600 dialed Libyan National Army besieged Trivioli in a failed attempt 0:48:03.680 --> 0:48:07.840 to capture the capital. But in this unexpected alliance, in 0:48:07.920 --> 0:48:12.120 a highly symbolic gesture, the Libyan National Army's Chief of 0:48:12.239 --> 0:48:16.000 Staff At Naduti, was invited to visit the city for talks. 0:48:17.040 --> 0:48:19.920 The prospect of de Baiba and haf Dad varying their 0:48:19.960 --> 0:48:23.279 differences was really welcomed by the u N as it 0:48:23.400 --> 0:48:26.120 was struggling to maintain a ceasefire that had ended a 0:48:26.239 --> 0:48:31.680 previous six year civil war in However, barely a month 0:48:31.840 --> 0:48:37.960 later after this extended reconciliation, supposedly on August this year, 0:48:38.200 --> 0:48:42.160 deadly clashes occurred in Libya's capital between militias backed by 0:48:42.320 --> 0:48:46.120 two rival administrations pretending to a return to violence amid 0:48:46.320 --> 0:48:50.400 a long political stalemate In these clashes, at least twenty 0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:52.400 three people were killed and more than a hundred and 0:48:52.480 --> 0:48:55.000 forty people were wounded in the fighting. According to the 0:48:55.080 --> 0:48:59.120 Health Ministry, six hospitals were hit and ambulances were unable 0:48:59.160 --> 0:49:02.360 to reach area affected by the clashes. And the ministry 0:49:02.400 --> 0:49:05.920 said that these effectively are war crimes and they condemned 0:49:05.920 --> 0:49:10.080 these actions. The escalation threatens to shatter the relative calm, 0:49:10.840 --> 0:49:13.359 relative calm taken out with a grain of salt, whatever 0:49:13.400 --> 0:49:16.120 you want that to mean, Libya has had for most 0:49:16.200 --> 0:49:19.200 of the past two years. As we know after listening 0:49:19.239 --> 0:49:21.960 to me talking for all of these millions of minutes, 0:49:22.239 --> 0:49:25.640 Libya was sent into chaos after and NATO backed uprising 0:49:25.880 --> 0:49:29.960 that toppled and killed long time autocrat Rond Goaddaffi in 0:49:31.560 --> 0:49:36.960 Obviously Gadaffi was also bad, not saying that, but if 0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:40.600 things were or to chaotic during good Daffi and before Gaddaffi, 0:49:41.280 --> 0:49:43.320 taking him out in the way that he was taken 0:49:43.360 --> 0:49:47.239 out only led to more chaos, So the instability only 0:49:47.320 --> 0:49:51.320 got worse. The clashes that are happening pitted the Tripoli 0:49:51.400 --> 0:49:55.840 Revolutionaries Brigade militia led by hathum To Judy against another 0:49:55.920 --> 0:50:00.400 militia allied with Abda Rani, who was an in famous 0:50:00.440 --> 0:50:04.080 war lord known as Raniwa. This is according to local media. 0:50:04.880 --> 0:50:08.880 Prime Minister Debaba's government, which is based in Tripoli, claimed 0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:12.480 that the clashes broke out when one militia fired at another. 0:50:13.280 --> 0:50:16.480 The fighting, however, as highly likely part of an ongoing 0:50:16.560 --> 0:50:21.320 power struggle between INTERIMPM Debaba and his rival, Prime Minister 0:50:21.640 --> 0:50:25.680 Fati Bashaka, who is operating from the coast city of Surta. 0:50:26.320 --> 0:50:29.279 Both Baiba and Bashaka are backed by militias, and the 0:50:29.400 --> 0:50:32.480 latter was mobilizing in recent weeks to try to enter 0:50:32.560 --> 0:50:36.160 Tripoli to dislodge his rival. An attempt in May by 0:50:36.200 --> 0:50:39.759 Bashaka to install his government in Tripoli triggered clashes that 0:50:39.960 --> 0:50:43.480 ended with his withdrawal from the capital. The US Ambassador 0:50:43.520 --> 0:50:47.640 to Libya, Richard Norland, urged for de escalation before quote 0:50:47.800 --> 0:50:50.960 things get worse, and he also urged for the Libyan 0:50:51.000 --> 0:50:54.479 parties to agree on an early date for elections. Prime 0:50:54.520 --> 0:50:58.719 Minister to Baba's hold on power is very precarious. In 0:50:58.840 --> 0:51:02.480 July of this year, protests erupted in nine cities against 0:51:02.480 --> 0:51:06.239 corruption and power cuts. Debba was originally installed again as 0:51:06.239 --> 0:51:08.920 a temporary prime minister to run the country until the 0:51:09.000 --> 0:51:12.480 elections were due last December, but he hasn't given up 0:51:12.520 --> 0:51:16.759 that power because power is a disease, and when those 0:51:16.800 --> 0:51:21.320 elections were canceled amid constitutional arguments, he obviously decided to 0:51:21.360 --> 0:51:25.240 stay in power. And this is despite Libya's parliament demanding 0:51:25.280 --> 0:51:28.440 that he stepped down. So, as we've learned in this 0:51:29.320 --> 0:51:33.400 brief history of this country, Libya has been racked with 0:51:33.680 --> 0:51:37.719 internal divisions and instrument civil war conflict since the armed 0:51:37.800 --> 0:51:41.680 uprising of eleven of the longtime dictator La Daffi, and 0:51:41.760 --> 0:51:45.640 while international efforts to bring rival administrations together in a 0:51:45.800 --> 0:51:50.640 unity government succeeded in early this only created a fragile piece. 0:51:51.600 --> 0:51:56.400 The proliferation of weapons and autonomous militias, flourishing criminal networks, 0:51:56.440 --> 0:51:59.600 the interference of regional powers, and the presence of extremist 0:51:59.640 --> 0:52:02.759 groups have all contributed to the country's persistent lack of 0:52:02.840 --> 0:52:06.840 physical security. More than a decade of violence has displaced 0:52:07.080 --> 0:52:10.440 hundreds of thousands of people, and human rights conditions have 0:52:10.560 --> 0:52:14.680 steadily deteriorated. The ceasefire I mentioned earlier was due to 0:52:15.680 --> 0:52:20.560 an occurrence in sixteen when forces loyal to Ralife Rail 0:52:20.920 --> 0:52:25.120 attempted Akutata against fayaz As Sage and the Presidential Council 0:52:25.160 --> 0:52:29.160 of the g NA. So in the Joint Libby and 0:52:29.200 --> 0:52:31.680 Military Commission that represented the l n A and the 0:52:31.800 --> 0:52:35.080 g n A, they reached a permanent ceasefire agreement in 0:52:35.200 --> 0:52:39.320 all areas of Libya. The agreement was effective immediately and 0:52:39.400 --> 0:52:43.160 it required that all foreign fighters leave Libya within three months, 0:52:43.320 --> 0:52:47.279 while a joint police force would patrol disputed areas, and 0:52:47.800 --> 0:52:51.120 the first commercial flight between Tripoli and Benghazi took place 0:52:51.200 --> 0:52:55.640 that same day. On March tenth, and Interimmunity Government was 0:52:55.840 --> 0:52:58.759 formed and it was slated to be in power as 0:52:58.840 --> 0:53:01.680 we know until the president election. But it's still in 0:53:01.760 --> 0:53:05.520 power now. So when when I'm talking about those peaceful 0:53:05.560 --> 0:53:08.720 quote unquote two years, I'm talking about this time between 0:53:08.840 --> 0:53:15.480 this permanent ceasefire in and now. And despite improvements following 0:53:15.520 --> 0:53:19.040 the ceasefire that was broken in October of political and 0:53:19.120 --> 0:53:23.719 military violence has remained common. Human rights violations are widespread 0:53:24.200 --> 0:53:29.360 and this includes unlawful killings and forced disappearances and arbitrary detentions. 0:53:30.360 --> 0:53:33.440 These conditions are further affected by the presence of various 0:53:33.560 --> 0:53:38.080 armed groups thousands of foreign mercenaries, a large migrant population 0:53:38.480 --> 0:53:42.200 and mass internal displacement, and so Libya has been in 0:53:42.239 --> 0:53:44.960 a tumultuous state since the start of the Arab Spring 0:53:45.040 --> 0:53:49.000 related the Libyan Crisis. Of the crisis resulted in the 0:53:49.080 --> 0:53:52.239 collapse of the Libyan Arab Dheria and the killing of 0:53:52.360 --> 0:53:55.600 Rommdga Daffi amidst the First Civil War of Libya and 0:53:55.760 --> 0:53:59.680 the foreign military intervention. The crisis was deepened by the 0:53:59.719 --> 0:54:02.439 fact sal violence in the aftermath at the First Civil War, 0:54:02.760 --> 0:54:04.919 and this resulted in the outbreak of the second Civil 0:54:04.960 --> 0:54:08.520 War that happened in the Control over the country is 0:54:08.560 --> 0:54:12.120 currently split between the House Representatives in Towbrook and the 0:54:12.200 --> 0:54:16.160 Government of National Unity in Tripoli and their respective supporters, 0:54:16.320 --> 0:54:19.920 as well as various jihaddest groups and tribal elements controlling 0:54:19.960 --> 0:54:23.120 parts of the country. And as we've learned, the violent 0:54:23.200 --> 0:54:26.480 protests are continuing to go on today and the country 0:54:26.560 --> 0:54:30.560 remains in a state of unrest to say the least. 0:54:31.360 --> 0:54:36.560 But I think this information is a good foundation to 0:54:36.719 --> 0:54:39.200 serve as a starting point if we talk about Libya 0:54:39.280 --> 0:54:42.480 going forward to really understand how this country came to 0:54:42.600 --> 0:54:49.280 be so unstable, because like most countries that are experiencing upheaval. 0:54:49.880 --> 0:54:53.680 It's usually because of a lot of different powers buying 0:54:53.719 --> 0:54:57.440 for control, international powers intervening, and just a lot of 0:54:57.480 --> 0:55:01.719 cluster fucking stuff that results in cluster fuck enus. So, Um, 0:55:02.360 --> 0:55:04.440 that's where we're going to end for today. I hope 0:55:04.640 --> 0:55:09.160 this was informative and I hope you appreciate some of 0:55:09.200 --> 0:55:13.759 the history. I definitely do. So. Yeah, until next time, 0:55:14.520 --> 0:55:19.719 go drink some water and stay hydrated and go head 0:55:19.760 --> 0:55:38.239 a dog. You should never say how I mistook one part. 0:55:38.320 --> 0:55:41.080 You can send those on a recording, rubbit. It's okay. 0:55:41.120 --> 0:55:45.160 It's with a president, so we can't be there. M 0:55:45.440 --> 0:55:48.759 you shouldn't have done. That's Jimmy Cotton, dude. Well he's 0:55:48.800 --> 0:55:51.200 never recovered, man. Yeah, you can see it in his 0:55:51.320 --> 0:55:53.960 eyes when he tried to rebuild those houses. Welcome to 0:55:54.040 --> 0:55:57.440 It could happen here the podcast where one of us 0:55:57.560 --> 0:56:01.120 committed a crime against Jimmy Carter, former president of the 0:56:01.239 --> 0:56:06.560 United States. Um, that might actually get us in trouble 0:56:06.600 --> 0:56:08.360 with the Secret Service, but you know what it's happening. 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:10.759 It's happening, James. Well, they're gonna have to figure out 0:56:10.800 --> 0:56:14.800 which one it was. Yes, and that of course, second 0:56:14.880 --> 0:56:18.160 voice James Stout, who might wind up in Guantanamo for 0:56:18.280 --> 0:56:22.000 this because he's he's not a US citizen. But I 0:56:22.239 --> 0:56:25.080 feel pretty safe, and I feel like our guest for 0:56:25.239 --> 0:56:29.000 today is pretty safe. And I would like to introduce 0:56:29.280 --> 0:56:33.640 Stephen Manicelli. Uh. Stephen, you work for and are an 0:56:33.719 --> 0:56:36.440 editor at Protein Magazine. You've written for The Rolling Stone, 0:56:36.840 --> 0:56:39.560 You've written for a bunch of people, Dallas Voice, a 0:56:39.640 --> 0:56:45.560 number of different UM news websites, magazines, and you have 0:56:45.719 --> 0:56:48.320 been spending a big chunk of the last year or 0:56:48.400 --> 0:56:53.040 so in the streets in Dallas reporting on the escalating 0:56:53.239 --> 0:56:56.799 series of well, hopefully not escalating. I guess time will 0:56:56.840 --> 0:57:00.960 tell on that. But the series of right winging UM, 0:57:01.280 --> 0:57:02.880 I don't even want to I don't want to dignify 0:57:02.920 --> 0:57:05.520 them by calling them protests, but like right wing organized 0:57:06.200 --> 0:57:11.680 attempts to intimidate UH and spark violence at LGBT events 0:57:11.760 --> 0:57:14.120 in the DFW area, and some of the left wing 0:57:14.280 --> 0:57:18.280 protest counter against that, which has involved groups like the 0:57:18.360 --> 0:57:20.360 elm Fork John Brown Gun Club, who we've had on 0:57:20.400 --> 0:57:23.320 the show a few times, and has involved groups of 0:57:23.480 --> 0:57:28.480 armed leftists kind of UM in opposition to groups of 0:57:28.720 --> 0:57:32.240 armed right wingers. UM. Now, Stephen, the specific reason we're 0:57:32.240 --> 0:57:35.640 talking today is you were just the other day part 0:57:35.760 --> 0:57:38.760 of a panel put on by the Cato Institute, which 0:57:38.840 --> 0:57:43.280 is a libertarian think tank, titled Domestic Extremism and Political 0:57:43.400 --> 0:57:46.920 Violence the Threat to Liberty UM. Your fellow panelists were 0:57:46.960 --> 0:57:51.760 Mike German Mike is a former FBI agent who went 0:57:51.880 --> 0:57:54.760 undercover against the far right UM and now works for 0:57:54.840 --> 0:57:57.520 the Brennan Center. And Christopher Wiles, who is a professor 0:57:57.600 --> 0:57:59.600 of English and a director of American Studies at the 0:57:59.680 --> 0:58:02.080 Universe City of Connecticut and wrote the u s Anti 0:58:02.120 --> 0:58:06.120 Fascism Reader. UM. Now, this was interesting for a number 0:58:06.160 --> 0:58:08.640 of reasons. Kind of in the lead up to this event, 0:58:09.040 --> 0:58:11.880 the kate I Institute published a graphic that showed a 0:58:11.960 --> 0:58:15.560 number of domestic armed organizations UM. And so in the 0:58:15.640 --> 0:58:17.800 same graphic you had groups like the Proud Boys and 0:58:17.880 --> 0:58:20.920 Patriot Front, as well as groups like Yellow Peril Tactical 0:58:21.040 --> 0:58:23.040 and the ELM Fork, John Brown Gun Club and the 0:58:23.120 --> 0:58:28.240 Socialist Rifle Association. Prior to the event, this sparked a 0:58:28.320 --> 0:58:32.560 bit of frustration from the left and some people suspecting 0:58:32.600 --> 0:58:35.080 that this was going to be kind of geared towards 0:58:35.120 --> 0:58:39.800 attacking left wing armed groups and smearing them, you know, 0:58:40.480 --> 0:58:42.760 as violent extremists in the same way that the Proud 0:58:42.840 --> 0:58:45.320 Boys are. Uh, that is not what happened. Um, And 0:58:45.400 --> 0:58:47.440 I'm gonna open the floor up to you, Stephen, thank 0:58:47.480 --> 0:58:49.840 you for being on the show. Hey, thanks for having me. 0:58:49.960 --> 0:58:52.360 And I'm glad that this is not sort of a 0:58:52.560 --> 0:58:56.120 critic criticism session that I'm gonna be sitting with y'all 0:58:56.200 --> 0:59:00.120 on In terms of yeah, my participation with a I 0:59:00.200 --> 0:59:02.960 hestitate to even use the word libertarian because of the 0:59:03.040 --> 0:59:09.080 historical definition of the term, but you know, conservative libertarian whatever, 0:59:09.200 --> 0:59:12.200 big L versus small L. I don't. Yeah, we could 0:59:12.240 --> 0:59:16.000 call them a right libertarian think to their rough bodies, 0:59:16.160 --> 0:59:18.920 right like literally founded by rough body. Yeah, they love 0:59:19.000 --> 0:59:23.360 them some Rothbard. Um didn't they like excommunicate him or 0:59:23.440 --> 0:59:26.800 something though? At Okay, I couldn't. I don't. I'm not 0:59:26.960 --> 0:59:31.480 deep on the lower one thing. If you're doing my 0:59:31.640 --> 0:59:34.360 favorite meme with the two hands meeting in the middle middle, 0:59:34.440 --> 0:59:44.920 left libertarians and right libertarians have excommunicating members. Murray Rothbart 0:59:45.000 --> 0:59:49.280 is on an isle exile Murray Rothbart and Mary Books 0:59:49.360 --> 0:59:53.520 and united and cancelation. So yeah, I guess I'm not 0:59:53.640 --> 0:59:57.280 being canceled, which is is good UM. And so yeah, 0:59:57.520 --> 1:00:00.640 they had reached out to me in stept Timber about 1:00:00.680 --> 1:00:03.240 being on this panel, and they had mentioned UM the 1:00:03.280 --> 1:00:07.840 other guests, and frankly I was intrigued because you know, 1:00:07.920 --> 1:00:10.800 if people want to pay attention to the growing threat 1:00:10.840 --> 1:00:15.000 of fascism, I think that's pretty neat. And it seemed 1:00:15.000 --> 1:00:18.120 like an opportunity to do the thing that Glenn Greenwald 1:00:18.200 --> 1:00:20.680 claims that he does when he goes on Tucker Carlson, 1:00:20.760 --> 1:00:23.680 which is like reaching out to an audience that doesn't 1:00:23.720 --> 1:00:27.400 already agree with the things that I think UM, because 1:00:28.280 --> 1:00:30.520 he just goes on because their pals and they already 1:00:30.520 --> 1:00:34.600 all agree. So UM, I digress. I thought it was 1:00:34.680 --> 1:00:38.280 maybe an interesting forum and and I was really interested 1:00:38.320 --> 1:00:42.480 to hear UM from the other panelists, in particular UM 1:00:42.880 --> 1:00:45.480 because I had looked at what Mike German had written 1:00:45.880 --> 1:00:50.320 after his service in UM the FBI and as well 1:00:50.400 --> 1:00:54.800 as the author of the Anti Fascist Handbook, and I thought, well, 1:00:54.920 --> 1:00:57.200 if if Kato has invited all three of us, it's 1:00:57.240 --> 1:01:00.360 it's not gonna go too off the rails and terms 1:01:00.440 --> 1:01:03.720 of UM, you know, sort of the false equivalency problems 1:01:04.120 --> 1:01:06.720 or it just becoming a session to bash on groups 1:01:07.240 --> 1:01:10.680 that aren't really the part of the problem. Interestingly enough, 1:01:10.800 --> 1:01:13.840 the primary amount of bashing that went on was Mike German, 1:01:13.920 --> 1:01:19.200 former f by FBI h repeatedly viciously criticizing the police 1:01:19.240 --> 1:01:23.160 and the FBI for their complicity with far right street movements. Yeah, 1:01:23.480 --> 1:01:26.520 Mike's been pretty consistent, I spoken for like a couple 1:01:26.560 --> 1:01:28.800 of years, and I'm sure you people are probably aware 1:01:28.800 --> 1:01:31.720 of his presence by now, but he's been pretty consistent 1:01:31.840 --> 1:01:35.640 on bashing defense for failing to act on white supremacy 1:01:35.760 --> 1:01:38.560 for decades. And it's very It's there's a number of 1:01:38.640 --> 1:01:41.320 reasons this is interesting that we'll we'll be getting back into, 1:01:41.440 --> 1:01:44.920 but I really do recommend people take a listen to 1:01:45.160 --> 1:01:48.600 this conversation between y'all. Among other things, there's there's some 1:01:48.680 --> 1:01:51.520 good history in there. We'll talk about a couple of 1:01:51.640 --> 1:01:54.040 things that got introduced that I don't ad percent agree with. 1:01:54.120 --> 1:01:56.280 That there's some good history in there, and I think 1:01:56.760 --> 1:01:59.240 more to the point, you get a lot of updates 1:01:59.320 --> 1:02:01.480 from your report in Dallas and a lot of kind 1:02:01.520 --> 1:02:04.200 of summaries of that which I find very valuable and 1:02:04.240 --> 1:02:06.080 think will be valuable to people who have maybe been 1:02:06.120 --> 1:02:09.080 following it less. And then also it's really interesting to 1:02:09.200 --> 1:02:12.360 get Mike's perspective as someone he was in It was 1:02:12.480 --> 1:02:14.440 late eighties, early nineties, he was doing a lot of 1:02:14.560 --> 1:02:18.360 undercover stuff on the West Coast and neo Nazi movements. UM, 1:02:18.520 --> 1:02:21.560 and so hearing him discuss the way in which the 1:02:21.720 --> 1:02:25.160 FBI s programs targeted at the far right work and 1:02:25.320 --> 1:02:30.360 don't work was really interesting to me. Oh. Absolutely, that 1:02:30.520 --> 1:02:32.280 was the sort of the side of the story that 1:02:32.360 --> 1:02:37.400 I knew the least about. UM. Christopher Viles, the professor, 1:02:37.680 --> 1:02:40.040 the guy who wrote the handbook, UM, you know, I 1:02:40.120 --> 1:02:44.920 think he provided a very important set of historical information 1:02:45.080 --> 1:02:47.480 that kind of helped iron out some of the issues 1:02:47.520 --> 1:02:50.240 in terms of the framing craps. Yes, and some of 1:02:50.320 --> 1:02:52.640 the inconsistencies which I think we can dive into a 1:02:52.680 --> 1:02:56.600 little bit, or rather inaccuracies that kind of got slipped 1:02:56.680 --> 1:02:59.240 by UM and we weren't really able to address in 1:02:59.360 --> 1:03:03.439 the course of the conversation. But hearing him just put 1:03:03.920 --> 1:03:07.320 it so bluntly kind of took the wind out of 1:03:07.400 --> 1:03:08.880 me in a good way where I was like, I 1:03:08.920 --> 1:03:11.920 don't I don't have anything else to add here, No, notes, 1:03:12.800 --> 1:03:17.120 um because he really made the point that yes, some 1:03:17.200 --> 1:03:20.880 of these organizations were cannon glove with police officers at 1:03:20.880 --> 1:03:23.920 the local level, even at the federal level. He's witnessed it. 1:03:24.120 --> 1:03:27.320 He has a number of experiences that he cited where 1:03:27.600 --> 1:03:31.360 the FBI is basically saying, uh, do not talk about 1:03:31.600 --> 1:03:34.560 your case is involving white supremacists and these similar type 1:03:34.600 --> 1:03:37.800 of groups, because there are people in the agency who 1:03:37.840 --> 1:03:42.120 are sympathetic. Um And I think that's kind of why 1:03:43.120 --> 1:03:47.600 I ended up on the panel because in part the 1:03:47.760 --> 1:03:51.000 story that I've been covering around here with this harassment 1:03:51.080 --> 1:03:54.160 campaign over the past few months of lgbt Q groups 1:03:54.200 --> 1:03:58.200 and events, part of the story is that policing has 1:03:58.560 --> 1:04:02.640 not really done anything to prevent uh you know, this 1:04:02.800 --> 1:04:09.040 incitement and harassment from continuing and occasionally turning violent. Not 1:04:09.240 --> 1:04:12.320 in the sense of weapons being used other than bear 1:04:12.400 --> 1:04:16.200 me so far, but in the sense the physical violence 1:04:16.360 --> 1:04:20.640 and uh you know, slurs and violent threats being hurled 1:04:20.720 --> 1:04:24.720 at people. UM. So, I I think that Mike's points 1:04:24.800 --> 1:04:28.440 for really timely and well said, and frankly, he's the 1:04:28.520 --> 1:04:31.040 kind of person that they needed to come from because 1:04:31.160 --> 1:04:35.120 otherwise they just kind of get smacked away as leftist 1:04:35.200 --> 1:04:40.520 talking point by people who probably have some internal biases 1:04:40.640 --> 1:04:44.720 or prejudices, prejudices that prevent them from engaging with it 1:04:44.760 --> 1:04:47.520 when it comes from the wrong person in the wrong way. 1:04:48.600 --> 1:04:52.640 And there were a number of interesting kind of discussions happening. 1:04:52.640 --> 1:04:55.240 One of the thing that I was happy about is that, well, 1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:57.000 the initial framing, I think there was a lot of 1:04:57.080 --> 1:04:59.960 fear that all of these left wing groups, we're going 1:05:00.000 --> 1:05:02.240 to get lumped in with groups that have, to put 1:05:02.280 --> 1:05:08.040 it bluntly, tried to overthrow democracy. Um. Right, we should 1:05:08.080 --> 1:05:11.400 point out that that's how the FBI does do it, right, 1:05:11.520 --> 1:05:15.120 like they for instance, the group white supremacists with like 1:05:15.200 --> 1:05:18.800 black identity groups, is racial identity extremists or statistics that 1:05:18.920 --> 1:05:21.720 way like that, That's that's how the FEDS see this. 1:05:21.880 --> 1:05:24.280 But yeah, they didn't, which is which is good. It's 1:05:24.320 --> 1:05:28.040 like a form of obfuscation to do so. And um, 1:05:28.400 --> 1:05:30.680 you know, why would they do that. Well, maybe there's 1:05:30.680 --> 1:05:33.600 a few reasons they might do that, especially if you 1:05:33.640 --> 1:05:38.520 ask someone like Mike um, and you know, it's such 1:05:38.560 --> 1:05:41.800 a blind spot for obvious the ideological reasons for so 1:05:41.920 --> 1:05:47.000 many people involved. Yeah, and it's it's Um, it was 1:05:47.080 --> 1:05:49.280 interesting because there was this bit in the middle of 1:05:49.360 --> 1:05:53.880 it where Mike, you know, being a former fed, walked 1:05:53.920 --> 1:05:56.360 through kind of like, well, it makes sense to me, 1:05:56.520 --> 1:06:00.080 given the fact that law enforcement is not able to 1:06:00.160 --> 1:06:02.560 be trusted in a lot of instances and often is 1:06:02.680 --> 1:06:05.840 working hand in glove with these far right groups that 1:06:06.240 --> 1:06:09.680 want to harm marginalize people, that they would seek to 1:06:09.800 --> 1:06:13.880 arm themselves. Um. And that prompted from the the fellow 1:06:13.920 --> 1:06:19.360 who was actually um kind of the organizing the the event, 1:06:19.480 --> 1:06:23.160 Patrick Eddington, who's a senior fellow at the Cato Institute, 1:06:23.560 --> 1:06:25.880 him to point out and he was I would have 1:06:26.000 --> 1:06:29.760 to say broadly fair um. And generally he seemed a 1:06:29.800 --> 1:06:33.520 little bit kind of um uh. He he had this 1:06:33.600 --> 1:06:36.480 attitude you all, you get sometimes around libertarians where he 1:06:36.760 --> 1:06:37.880 was like there was a moment where he was like, well, 1:06:37.880 --> 1:06:40.600 I'm glad some on the left to finally started accepting 1:06:40.640 --> 1:06:44.440 the Second Amendments and stuff like that. Um. But but 1:06:44.640 --> 1:06:47.440 he had a he had a moment where he expressed 1:06:47.480 --> 1:06:53.280 a concern, UM, which was his fear about the possibility 1:06:53.360 --> 1:06:55.280 that if you keep having these events, at some point 1:06:55.360 --> 1:06:58.200 you're going to have two groups of people who are 1:06:58.400 --> 1:07:02.520 armed shoot at each other, um, which is we have. 1:07:02.760 --> 1:07:05.200 We've been right up to that line. You have had 1:07:05.640 --> 1:07:08.360 exchanges of fire, just thinking. In Portland, you had a 1:07:08.480 --> 1:07:11.240 moment where as a single right wing individual with a 1:07:11.320 --> 1:07:14.400 handgun fired into a group of people, thankfully didn't hit 1:07:14.440 --> 1:07:17.800 any two people in the anti fascist side fired back 1:07:17.960 --> 1:07:21.200 and forced him to flee. Um, you had a moment 1:07:21.320 --> 1:07:26.000 earlier this year in Portland where a right winger shot 1:07:26.200 --> 1:07:30.200 into a group of unarmed people doing traffic security, killed 1:07:30.240 --> 1:07:34.360 a sixty one year old woman, wounded I think five 1:07:34.440 --> 1:07:39.080 other people, and then was shot and stopped by a leftist. Um, 1:07:39.360 --> 1:07:44.040 you obviously had Um a proud boy while a member 1:07:44.040 --> 1:07:47.360 of Patriot Prayer shot and killed during an altercation, but 1:07:47.560 --> 1:07:49.960 not an exchange of fire. The only person who fired 1:07:50.000 --> 1:07:52.840 was the person who killed that that individual. So none 1:07:52.880 --> 1:07:56.680 of those are quite two groups of people with guns 1:07:56.880 --> 1:08:01.280 exchanging fire, you know, in a sustained way. Uh, none 1:08:01.320 --> 1:08:03.840 of those even entirely approached kind of what happened at 1:08:03.880 --> 1:08:07.400 like Greensville. But they're all on that spectrum. And while 1:08:07.440 --> 1:08:09.960 I think this guy there's a degree to which he's 1:08:10.040 --> 1:08:12.920 kind of spooked at seeing leftists with guns, I do 1:08:13.080 --> 1:08:15.480 think that that's a reasonable thing to be concerned with 1:08:15.640 --> 1:08:18.360 because when and if we hit that point, it's going 1:08:18.439 --> 1:08:21.479 to be an inflection moment for I think the entire country, 1:08:22.320 --> 1:08:28.120 right right. I think the reality is that most normal people, 1:08:28.560 --> 1:08:31.320 whatever you want to use the word to describe them, 1:08:31.360 --> 1:08:34.479 people aren't brain poisoned and plugged into the internet and 1:08:34.840 --> 1:08:37.920 about all these things or or having to deal with 1:08:38.040 --> 1:08:41.360 them and are affected by them in real life. They 1:08:41.479 --> 1:08:43.760 might see these groups and just cast them all under 1:08:43.800 --> 1:08:48.240 the same umbrella. You know, there's a good meme I 1:08:48.360 --> 1:08:50.400 chuckled at that came out afterwards, where it had had 1:08:50.520 --> 1:08:53.120 the slide showing on all of the groups, the right 1:08:53.160 --> 1:08:55.120 wing groups and the left and groups sort of armed 1:08:55.600 --> 1:08:58.839 groups in you know, the United States, and then replacing 1:08:58.880 --> 1:09:01.519 them all with just domestic cleaning products. Like, yes, they 1:09:01.560 --> 1:09:05.960 all have something in common. They have weapons, and they're 1:09:06.080 --> 1:09:10.439 armed to some degree, but beyond that, they all have 1:09:11.240 --> 1:09:15.519 distinctions and we shouldn't drawn equivalency. And I think, you know, 1:09:15.640 --> 1:09:20.960 Mike did a very elegant job of drawing that distinctionaries 1:09:21.000 --> 1:09:23.599 as these people not only have a right to defend themselves, 1:09:23.640 --> 1:09:26.800 but they probably have a good reason to given all 1:09:26.840 --> 1:09:30.000 of these things. He was basically writing the lyrics to 1:09:30.280 --> 1:09:34.240 rage against the Machine song, and um, I was a 1:09:34.280 --> 1:09:37.639 little astonished by that, and he made a very clear 1:09:37.680 --> 1:09:39.519 point to say, like, yeah, there are people who are 1:09:39.560 --> 1:09:41.960 aggressors and there are people who aren't. We can find 1:09:42.000 --> 1:09:45.320 a distinction in that. And if we're just now getting 1:09:45.320 --> 1:09:47.639 concerned about this violence, well maybe we should ask why 1:09:47.680 --> 1:09:50.080 we've had such a big blind spot for so long. 1:09:50.320 --> 1:09:52.080 And he got right to the core of it. It's 1:09:52.160 --> 1:09:57.920 these ideologies deeply baked into our institutions of white supremacist 1:09:58.240 --> 1:10:02.200 right supremacy, uh, basically all the way back to colonization, 1:10:03.040 --> 1:10:08.400 and you know, dealing with that is necessary for us 1:10:08.439 --> 1:10:10.880 to deal with the broader problem. And I think he 1:10:11.479 --> 1:10:14.760 was very clear to say, like the things that were 1:10:14.800 --> 1:10:18.479 required to get to that point of like a potential 1:10:18.600 --> 1:10:22.880 shootout would be a total breakdown in policing. And so 1:10:23.040 --> 1:10:26.759 he played place the blame at the feet of the police, 1:10:27.520 --> 1:10:31.760 practically said it's their goddamn fault that people feel the 1:10:31.920 --> 1:10:34.320 need to do this, because if they just focused on 1:10:34.479 --> 1:10:38.080 the crimes that Proud Boys commit in the Dallas area, uh, 1:10:38.240 --> 1:10:42.040 you know, basically minor assaults and stuff, they would trace 1:10:42.160 --> 1:10:43.920 it back to the people that are committing them, and 1:10:44.040 --> 1:10:48.920 they would cut down on these escalations because the same 1:10:49.040 --> 1:10:51.599 people are the ones that show up to these events 1:10:51.640 --> 1:10:54.679 time and time again. It's worth rub you talk about 1:10:54.680 --> 1:10:57.320 like an inflection point, right, and and we spoke about 1:10:57.360 --> 1:10:59.920 like failures in policing too. I think part off there 1:11:00.000 --> 1:11:03.640 reason that we see things are super duper exceptional right 1:11:03.720 --> 1:11:06.320 now is the way that we teach history in schools here. 1:11:06.680 --> 1:11:08.800 And part of the things we don't teach are like 1:11:09.160 --> 1:11:11.360 that this has happened before, right, like the Battle of 1:11:11.439 --> 1:11:15.240 Hayes Pond being a paramount example. If we look at 1:11:15.320 --> 1:11:17.400 the like the standoff at Wounded Knee or the second 1:11:17.400 --> 1:11:19.120 Battle of Wounded Knee, or whatever you want to call it, 1:11:19.240 --> 1:11:22.800 and throughout the civil rights movement, right there's a book 1:11:23.560 --> 1:11:27.479 by Rob Williams about a contemporary book about the use 1:11:27.520 --> 1:11:29.640 of firearms in the Civil rights movement that people can 1:11:29.720 --> 1:11:32.760 read like all of this stuff did happen then. And 1:11:32.880 --> 1:11:35.120 this same tension that we're feeling now about like a 1:11:35.200 --> 1:11:37.240 society putting itself apart and when it leads to a 1:11:37.320 --> 1:11:42.000 civil war also happened then and people felt this then 1:11:42.120 --> 1:11:45.640 two and we we well, the progress was made at 1:11:45.680 --> 1:11:47.800 that time. We didn't fix everything, right, like that's why 1:11:47.800 --> 1:11:50.360 we're having this discussion now. But like, I think the 1:11:50.439 --> 1:11:53.479 fact that we've removed so much of the specifically the 1:11:53.680 --> 1:11:56.519 violence and the use of guns from our discussion with 1:11:56.560 --> 1:11:59.439 the civil rights movement sometimes leads us to see what's 1:11:59.439 --> 1:12:04.200 happening now was like really particularly exceptional, and it's not like, yeah, 1:12:05.000 --> 1:12:07.120 it's always been the case of marginalized folks that have 1:12:07.320 --> 1:12:10.040 resorted to the same tools that he used to oppress 1:12:10.080 --> 1:12:12.400 them to defend themselves. And why wouldn't they write, like 1:12:12.560 --> 1:12:15.040 like Mike said, like Steve said, there's a very good 1:12:15.120 --> 1:12:18.160 and clear reason for oppressed people to want to defend 1:12:18.240 --> 1:12:22.080 themselves in their communities. The only analog that we were 1:12:22.080 --> 1:12:24.080 able to bring up in the conversation is like the 1:12:24.160 --> 1:12:30.120 pink pink panthers, pink panthers, which was, you know, something 1:12:30.160 --> 1:12:31.760 that a lot of people don't know about, And we 1:12:31.840 --> 1:12:34.439 did get a little bit of opportunity to discuss, you know, 1:12:34.520 --> 1:12:38.479 the black panthers and how community defense is a different 1:12:38.560 --> 1:12:42.280 set of reasons for arming yourself and having knowledge of 1:12:42.680 --> 1:12:45.240 the Second Amendment and all those sorts of things. Then 1:12:45.560 --> 1:12:50.200 you know, going outside an event hosted by an organization 1:12:50.280 --> 1:12:53.360 you have no interest in belonging to wearing your guns 1:12:53.680 --> 1:12:57.120 on your body to send a message. That's a very 1:12:57.280 --> 1:13:02.000 menacing form of free speed. And I think another good 1:13:02.320 --> 1:13:04.559 moment to bring up when we talk about this would 1:13:04.560 --> 1:13:06.920 be the Red Summer of nineteen nineteen, which was a 1:13:07.080 --> 1:13:09.920 series of race riots targeting black people in the United 1:13:09.960 --> 1:13:15.160 States that also involved large groups and communities, particularly in cities, 1:13:15.320 --> 1:13:18.840 of Black Americans taking up arms and defending themselves. Um 1:13:18.960 --> 1:13:21.560 and and was fairly enormous, and it's deftyal hundreds and 1:13:21.640 --> 1:13:24.760 hundreds of people were killed. Um It's it's really a 1:13:24.880 --> 1:13:28.040 pretty nightmarish moment in history. But it's the thing when 1:13:28.120 --> 1:13:29.840 you have groups and we're about to have someone on 1:13:30.040 --> 1:13:32.920 from from Yellow Parel tactical, when you have groups that 1:13:33.000 --> 1:13:37.720 are specifically organizing and saying like we are organizing, we 1:13:37.840 --> 1:13:41.640 are teaching skills for people to become armed because we 1:13:41.760 --> 1:13:45.680 are afraid that we and people like us will be victimized. 1:13:46.040 --> 1:13:48.479 It's stuff like the Red Summer that they're directly looking at. 1:13:48.479 --> 1:13:52.160 It's not theoretical, you know. Yeah, you're Frank carl Um 1:13:52.200 --> 1:13:54.240 from Arranged TV have some good videos about a lot 1:13:54.280 --> 1:13:56.360 of these different things. If people are interested in looking 1:13:56.400 --> 1:14:01.200 them up. Yeah, um, and I think probably we should 1:14:01.240 --> 1:14:04.760 bring on our next guest for tonight. Uh and and 1:14:04.920 --> 1:14:08.559 Stephen will be staying on as well. Snow from Yellow 1:14:08.600 --> 1:14:11.400 Peril Tactical. Snow, do you want to introduce yourself and 1:14:11.439 --> 1:14:14.519 your organization for folks who may not be as as 1:14:14.680 --> 1:14:16.759 familiar with the stuff as we are. We we briefly 1:14:16.840 --> 1:14:21.679 covered y'all a little bit earlier in this but yeah, 1:14:21.800 --> 1:14:25.120 thanks for having me. My name is Snow. My pronouns 1:14:25.479 --> 1:14:28.200 the sheet or they, and I am one of the 1:14:28.280 --> 1:14:33.280 many members of Yellow Peril Tactical. We are a collective 1:14:33.680 --> 1:14:38.880 of leftist Asian Americans under the shared ideology of being 1:14:38.880 --> 1:14:43.559 anti authoritarian. Um. And we talk about all sorts of things, 1:14:44.160 --> 1:14:49.000 but particularly how to develop firearms skills and also community 1:14:49.040 --> 1:14:54.080 defense and the occasional ship post and Uh. First questions, 1:14:54.080 --> 1:14:56.719 because we're talking about this Cato Institute things that Stephen 1:14:56.800 --> 1:14:58.080 was on. Have you had a chance to listen to 1:14:58.160 --> 1:15:01.000 that yet since y'all watched it twice and I have 1:15:01.560 --> 1:15:07.280 or paid notes? Yeah? Yeah, why why don't we start here? Yeah? 1:15:08.680 --> 1:15:12.479 Go off? You know, Okay, Like the chat was lit. 1:15:13.120 --> 1:15:17.160 When we first saw that we were mentioned, we were like, Wow, 1:15:17.520 --> 1:15:20.320 we fucking made it because originally we started as a 1:15:20.320 --> 1:15:22.800 ship post account and then we were like, oh, people 1:15:22.800 --> 1:15:25.200 actually care, um, And this is just one of those 1:15:25.280 --> 1:15:30.360 moments where, uh, I don't know, it felt like really 1:15:30.520 --> 1:15:33.519 surreal that Kato would even give a funk about us, 1:15:34.120 --> 1:15:36.519 because we do all of this in our free time. 1:15:36.720 --> 1:15:39.880 You know, this is like nobody pays us right, um. 1:15:40.760 --> 1:15:45.960 And so we had a lot of skepticism going into it, um. 1:15:46.400 --> 1:15:50.040 And in a sense, uh, we're a bit on the 1:15:50.160 --> 1:15:54.240 defensive kind of preparing for a lot of false equivalent 1:15:54.400 --> 1:15:58.479 rhetoric um and a lot of just like I don't know, 1:15:58.520 --> 1:16:02.040 maybe like orientalism as we all um, just given the 1:16:02.160 --> 1:16:05.920 history of how like Westerners have viewed Asian culture um. 1:16:06.080 --> 1:16:08.840 But ultimately, like the consensus has been that we were 1:16:08.880 --> 1:16:12.639 pleasantly surprised of how balanced it was. I thought overall 1:16:12.800 --> 1:16:16.640 it was very intriguing, and I got some good some 1:16:16.760 --> 1:16:18.560 good quotes written down, But I don't know if you 1:16:18.640 --> 1:16:20.920 want to go into those now or later or what? 1:16:21.760 --> 1:16:23.680 Can we start with having I really want to like 1:16:23.880 --> 1:16:26.719 anchor this in having you explained what community defense means, 1:16:27.120 --> 1:16:29.800 like so people can understand why, and then we can 1:16:29.840 --> 1:16:32.400 go from what people say to you yeah. Um, So 1:16:33.120 --> 1:16:36.719 earlier y'all were talking about, like, um, the nineteen nineteen 1:16:36.800 --> 1:16:39.679 riots and actually reminded me of like the Pacific Coast 1:16:39.800 --> 1:16:43.519 Race riots of nineteen seven, and a bunch of were 1:16:43.840 --> 1:16:47.280 like murdering and committing violence against Asian people, right, And 1:16:47.800 --> 1:16:51.200 nineteen o seven was not that long ago. Um. And 1:16:51.240 --> 1:16:54.840 in a sense, it never has gone away. Um. And 1:16:56.240 --> 1:17:00.280 you know, I think um Chris File said it put 1:17:00.320 --> 1:17:02.080 it nicely when he was like, you know, in the 1:17:02.120 --> 1:17:06.040 backdrop of a lot of anti Asian violence. Um, it's 1:17:06.080 --> 1:17:10.920 just that it's been a lot more prevalent among Asians specifically. 1:17:11.800 --> 1:17:16.320 That doesn't stop you know, like Boba liberalism, identity politics 1:17:16.400 --> 1:17:20.040 from happening where there's not like a grand division of 1:17:20.160 --> 1:17:24.000 like what's going on at large. Um. But we know 1:17:24.360 --> 1:17:28.360 that like our communities are under attack and the cops 1:17:28.439 --> 1:17:31.280 don't give a funk about us, and if anything, they 1:17:31.360 --> 1:17:34.200 just make it worse most of the time. Uh. And 1:17:34.280 --> 1:17:36.639 so it's truly up to us because you know, cops 1:17:36.720 --> 1:17:40.559 don't prevent crime. They come after and they funk it up. Um. 1:17:41.040 --> 1:17:47.200 And it's not something that has come easily to me personally. 1:17:47.400 --> 1:17:49.680 I've been in denial about it. For a lot of 1:17:49.760 --> 1:17:53.599 years around thinking like if I just avoid going out 1:17:53.720 --> 1:17:56.639 late at night, if I am always walking with a buddy, 1:17:56.840 --> 1:17:59.280 if I just you know, spend twenty minutes looking for 1:17:59.360 --> 1:18:04.000 a closer part working spot, it'll prevent me from being harmed. 1:18:04.040 --> 1:18:07.680 And ultimately, like that's just me being in denial, um. 1:18:08.439 --> 1:18:14.000 And part of it another realization is like being strapped, 1:18:15.080 --> 1:18:18.439 I can seal carry every day. That's not going to 1:18:18.600 --> 1:18:21.439 deter someone from attacking me because of how I look 1:18:22.360 --> 1:18:26.880 without doxing myself. I just look alternative, right, um. And 1:18:28.520 --> 1:18:30.599 knowing that that puts me at risk has never deterred 1:18:30.640 --> 1:18:32.760 me from wanting to express myself with how I look. 1:18:32.920 --> 1:18:38.280 But I know the risks and that doesn't stop people 1:18:38.320 --> 1:18:40.360 from me. But part of it is like I'm not 1:18:40.439 --> 1:18:44.320 going down without a fucking fight, Like my ancestors have 1:18:44.479 --> 1:18:46.720 come too fucking far. We kicked out the French, we 1:18:46.840 --> 1:18:50.519 kicked out the US, right, and now I'm in their turf. 1:18:50.640 --> 1:18:55.360 I've infiltrated the wire, but that doesn't mean but you know, 1:18:55.560 --> 1:18:57.840 it doesn't mean that it's going to stop them from 1:18:57.880 --> 1:19:02.040 harming us. Um. And you know, we know that we 1:19:02.160 --> 1:19:05.320 can't live in a fever dream where every single fascist 1:19:05.520 --> 1:19:09.240 on this planet will be gone. Um, but at the 1:19:09.360 --> 1:19:13.400 very least, like my life goal is to make them 1:19:13.479 --> 1:19:18.200 think twice. And I'm scared a little bit. It's interesting 1:19:18.280 --> 1:19:20.599 because you you bring up sort of what I think 1:19:20.680 --> 1:19:22.679 is a really good point, which is that like, even 1:19:22.720 --> 1:19:25.000 if you're if you're in your day to day life, 1:19:25.040 --> 1:19:26.640 the fact that you're carrying a gun isn't going to 1:19:26.720 --> 1:19:30.080 stop somebody from starting, you know, an interaction with you 1:19:30.160 --> 1:19:32.439 that could turn violent because you just look the way 1:19:32.479 --> 1:19:34.720 that you look. I do want to talk a little 1:19:34.760 --> 1:19:37.160 bit about what's kind of the opposite thing, and it 1:19:37.240 --> 1:19:39.320 is sort of part of why I think folks were 1:19:39.320 --> 1:19:41.560 a little on edge when this event got announced and 1:19:41.680 --> 1:19:44.799 you know that graphic came out that had as we've discussed, 1:19:44.840 --> 1:19:48.599 the Yellow Peril tactical alongside you know, these these these 1:19:48.640 --> 1:19:51.400 other groups. And there's one of the things that kind 1:19:51.439 --> 1:19:57.439 of results from the way gun culture works is that 1:19:57.600 --> 1:20:03.360 there's a very recognizable kind of um uniform um that 1:20:03.479 --> 1:20:06.040 you see, particularly you've seen it with the Boogleoo Boys, 1:20:06.080 --> 1:20:07.720 you see it with groups like the Proud Boys. It's 1:20:07.760 --> 1:20:10.080 the it's the thing where you've got a plate carrier, 1:20:10.960 --> 1:20:13.320 a belt, you know, an a are some other kind 1:20:13.360 --> 1:20:16.320 of long gun helmets and and usually other tactical gear 1:20:16.520 --> 1:20:19.519 on it um. And this kind of this outfit so 1:20:19.640 --> 1:20:22.000 to speak, has kind of evolved over time. It really 1:20:22.080 --> 1:20:24.479 is a result of the War on Terror, and it's 1:20:25.160 --> 1:20:28.200 both an aesthetic choice and there's a huge number of 1:20:28.280 --> 1:20:31.479 companies that exist, particularly on the right to provide people 1:20:31.520 --> 1:20:34.680 with aesthetic options for kind of having all of this 1:20:34.920 --> 1:20:38.840 gear that are are sort of ideologically simple simpatico with 1:20:38.960 --> 1:20:42.519 them um. But it's also just actually a practice. Well 1:20:43.080 --> 1:20:45.080 some of this stuff is less practical than others, but 1:20:45.160 --> 1:20:48.479 the basics of the of the get up exist because 1:20:48.640 --> 1:20:51.120 it's what worked, right. There's one of the things people 1:20:51.160 --> 1:20:53.680 noted when the Taliban took back over in Afghanistan is 1:20:53.720 --> 1:20:56.680 that all of their special operations guys were dressed the 1:20:56.760 --> 1:20:59.120 same way that US fighters, just because it's just what works. 1:20:59.200 --> 1:21:02.639 You see the same outfits on Ukrainian and Russian spec 1:21:02.680 --> 1:21:05.920 ops guys um. And one of the things when we 1:21:06.000 --> 1:21:08.200 when we're looking at kind of domestically, when you have 1:21:08.640 --> 1:21:12.400 people who are organizing and going out in the world 1:21:13.120 --> 1:21:16.519 armed as part of a public event, is that to 1:21:16.800 --> 1:21:20.080 people who are not familiar with what's going on, it 1:21:20.680 --> 1:21:22.960 can be hard to tell them about sometimes, and that 1:21:23.160 --> 1:21:25.560 is that strikes me the thing that the left particularly 1:21:25.680 --> 1:21:29.439 needs to deal with because both in kind of in 1:21:29.760 --> 1:21:32.240 the media and also out in the field, you don't 1:21:32.240 --> 1:21:34.439 want to be mistaken for groups like the Proud Boys 1:21:34.479 --> 1:21:35.960 and Steve and I want to start kind of with 1:21:36.040 --> 1:21:38.639 you here because I think you're you're reporting has always 1:21:38.680 --> 1:21:40.920 done a really good job of kind of making that 1:21:41.080 --> 1:21:43.320 difference clear. If you kind of have any thoughts on that, 1:21:43.520 --> 1:21:46.320 and then we'll we'll go back to you snow. I 1:21:46.439 --> 1:21:50.879 think that's a really interesting problem, the proliferation of tactical 1:21:51.560 --> 1:21:58.160 um aesthetics and the ideological sort of turn in the 1:21:58.280 --> 1:22:04.400 production of weaponry and accessories. I mean, there's like goddamn 1:22:05.080 --> 1:22:10.320 tactical eight franchises, which is making me lose my mind 1:22:10.439 --> 1:22:16.040 for a number of reasons. Um and that is a 1:22:16.240 --> 1:22:18.360 is a real distinct thing that I see all the 1:22:18.439 --> 1:22:21.400 time around here, and and I think there's subtle things 1:22:21.560 --> 1:22:25.080 that groups do to try to distinguish themselves. Obviously are patches, 1:22:25.600 --> 1:22:27.040 but in order to see a patch, you have to 1:22:27.120 --> 1:22:30.599 be close enough to someone in order to even find 1:22:30.680 --> 1:22:34.519 it legible. So then okay, you have flags, but then 1:22:34.560 --> 1:22:37.799 you also have to know what these flags are. Something 1:22:38.000 --> 1:22:42.400 that some groups around here have done when they're you know, 1:22:42.520 --> 1:22:46.160 sort of protecting an LGBTQ event is still have um 1:22:46.479 --> 1:22:50.040 flags affiliated with the LGBTQ movement, but once again you 1:22:50.080 --> 1:22:52.240 have to know what those are. And one more people 1:22:52.280 --> 1:22:54.240 know what those are these days, so that's a way 1:22:54.840 --> 1:22:57.560 in order to distinguish themselves. But it still takes a 1:22:57.640 --> 1:22:59.800 second for you to see a group of armed people 1:23:00.560 --> 1:23:03.800 and then process you know, exactly all of these sort 1:23:03.840 --> 1:23:08.840 of semiotic markers of who they are and what they're doing. Um, 1:23:09.800 --> 1:23:11.840 because if they have a different set of those things, 1:23:11.880 --> 1:23:15.320 it can be a very different set of conclusions that 1:23:15.400 --> 1:23:18.200 you can walk away from if you identify them. Uh. 1:23:18.520 --> 1:23:22.280 And in Texas, the right does love carrying these flags 1:23:22.320 --> 1:23:24.639 and wearing these patches, so it makes it very clear 1:23:24.720 --> 1:23:28.760 who has consistently shown up to these events. Um. But 1:23:28.920 --> 1:23:32.040 like the reaction of normal people, if a group of 1:23:32.240 --> 1:23:35.160 armed people are leading a protest is to kind of 1:23:35.240 --> 1:23:38.160 be like, what the heck double take? Maybe they will 1:23:38.160 --> 1:23:41.080 start filming it because it's the craziest thing that they've 1:23:41.120 --> 1:23:46.280 seen that week. Um. And ultimately you know they have 1:23:46.439 --> 1:23:49.800 to kind of know some contextual clues in order to 1:23:49.880 --> 1:23:53.200 even make these distinctions, particularly when you're talking about groups 1:23:53.320 --> 1:23:57.559 like um, you know, John Brown Clubs or Yellow Peril, 1:23:57.600 --> 1:24:00.400 where you're there's concerns around OP SACK or in PHO SAK, 1:24:00.439 --> 1:24:03.759 and you don't want to necessarily reveal your identities because 1:24:03.800 --> 1:24:07.040 you're already a part of a group that's facing violence 1:24:07.200 --> 1:24:11.120 at a disproportionate rate, and maybe you're you know, potentially 1:24:11.160 --> 1:24:14.439 targeted by the FBI at a disproportionate rate. Like the 1:24:14.560 --> 1:24:20.320 former FBI officer interestingly noted during the conversation that, yeah, 1:24:20.479 --> 1:24:23.640 you may have an even harder time sort of distinguishing 1:24:23.680 --> 1:24:26.720 yourself and in making it known who you are. Um, 1:24:26.800 --> 1:24:28.400 So it's an interesting challenge. I don't know if I 1:24:28.479 --> 1:24:31.880 have uh, sort of any lessons from it other than that, 1:24:32.560 --> 1:24:36.479 you know, these classic signifiers also seem to work. Sometimes 1:24:36.520 --> 1:24:40.320 they're kind of kitchy or um you know, seem ridiculous, 1:24:40.479 --> 1:24:42.840 but it's kind of the same thing, like you said 1:24:42.880 --> 1:24:46.960 about the spec ops, stuff like it's been used for centuries. 1:24:47.800 --> 1:24:50.000 Stuff like this has been used for a long time 1:24:50.080 --> 1:24:53.280 because it works because you immediately can comprehend is this 1:24:53.400 --> 1:24:56.120 person with a gun here? To kill me or to 1:24:56.200 --> 1:24:59.720 protect me. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's really interesting because I 1:25:00.040 --> 1:25:03.679 obviously I have a complicated history with flags, but there's 1:25:03.760 --> 1:25:07.000 few better ways to to inform other people about what 1:25:07.120 --> 1:25:11.000 a group of folks is doing than having one. Um, yeah, 1:25:11.000 --> 1:25:13.519 as long as you're not conducting an ambush and that's 1:25:13.520 --> 1:25:15.920 an offensive maneuver. And then suddenly you know, it's like, 1:25:16.000 --> 1:25:17.920 as long as you're cool with being like, we're here 1:25:18.600 --> 1:25:21.040 and this is what we're doing, a flag is exactly 1:25:21.200 --> 1:25:23.920 the thing that you might want. So no, one of 1:25:24.000 --> 1:25:27.360 the things I've I've always paid attention to and appreciated 1:25:27.479 --> 1:25:31.439 about yellow Perils the way and what's y'all social media 1:25:31.560 --> 1:25:36.000 and y'all's kind of forward face is both unapologetically focused 1:25:36.080 --> 1:25:40.719 on firearms, focused on training, and also feels completely different 1:25:41.000 --> 1:25:43.960 from any of the sort of right wing kind of 1:25:44.320 --> 1:25:46.200 groups that that focus on some of the state, even 1:25:46.240 --> 1:25:48.400 when you're doing stuff that's like videos of people shooting 1:25:48.439 --> 1:25:51.200 and training, Um, do you want to talk? I mean, 1:25:51.320 --> 1:25:53.519 it's just anything in general on this subject that you've 1:25:53.600 --> 1:26:00.120 you've felt. But that's something I've always particularly noticed about y'all. Yes, oh, 1:26:00.840 --> 1:26:05.519 thank you. Um, we try really hard. You should see 1:26:05.520 --> 1:26:09.040 the group chet UM. But it's it's something that you 1:26:09.120 --> 1:26:15.160 know when historically Asian Asians represented in firearms culture tend 1:26:15.200 --> 1:26:19.519 to be conservative folks who fit within the norm or 1:26:20.120 --> 1:26:23.439 you know, proximity to whiteness. And that's something that we 1:26:23.560 --> 1:26:27.439 are not at all interested in, UM. And we know 1:26:27.600 --> 1:26:29.560 that comes at a risk. That's why one of the 1:26:29.640 --> 1:26:35.280 reasons why are identifiable tattoos are clothing and our faces 1:26:35.280 --> 1:26:37.840 are always blurred one because we don't want cult of 1:26:37.920 --> 1:26:42.800 celebrity around individuals. UM. But too it's like part of 1:26:42.920 --> 1:26:47.120 that is a lot of folks generally, but especially on 1:26:47.160 --> 1:26:50.680 the right, will kind of have this very grandiose uh, 1:26:51.960 --> 1:26:56.719 I don't know, uh, buffers sense of legitimacy just because 1:26:56.760 --> 1:26:59.840 they have cool you know, video editing, they have like 1:26:59.880 --> 1:27:02.880 the nicest guns, they have a lot of guns. UM. 1:27:03.200 --> 1:27:04.600 And our thing is like, you don't need all that. 1:27:05.200 --> 1:27:06.840 What you do need is to train with what you 1:27:06.960 --> 1:27:13.000 got and are target audience are folks who don't know 1:27:13.200 --> 1:27:16.439 ship about firearms or just getting into it and needs 1:27:16.479 --> 1:27:19.280 some more reputable to go. UM. And we take that 1:27:19.439 --> 1:27:22.840 very seriously, UM, because I only got into firearms like 1:27:22.880 --> 1:27:25.680 two years ago, UM, And so that is fresh in 1:27:25.800 --> 1:27:29.120 my memory, and I know very well what that's like, um, 1:27:29.200 --> 1:27:31.880 and how intimidating it could be. So a lot of 1:27:31.920 --> 1:27:35.559 our work is to try to demystify it and really 1:27:35.640 --> 1:27:38.960 break it down to a way that like it doesn't 1:27:39.760 --> 1:27:42.439 like we don't make people feel like they have to 1:27:42.479 --> 1:27:45.519 be at a certain level already to even enter into 1:27:45.560 --> 1:27:47.880 the firearms world. Like we want to meet people where 1:27:47.920 --> 1:27:51.560 they're at and encourage people. So like, you know, do 1:27:51.680 --> 1:27:53.719 our drill of the month and like tell us your score, 1:27:53.920 --> 1:27:55.600 and then do it next month and tell how to 1:27:55.680 --> 1:27:58.080 tell us how you did better, And so it's really 1:27:58.160 --> 1:28:02.120 encouraging people to get better on an individual basis, Um, 1:28:02.200 --> 1:28:05.439 we encourage people to go out with their friends, um. 1:28:05.560 --> 1:28:08.280 But we also try to throw in like community international 1:28:08.360 --> 1:28:12.519 solidarity with our fundraisers in there too, So we try 1:28:12.520 --> 1:28:15.600 to do a lot of different things. But at the 1:28:15.680 --> 1:28:18.000 end of the day, like if we help just eapen 1:28:18.080 --> 1:28:21.479 a handful of shooters get better at defending themselves or 1:28:21.680 --> 1:28:25.800 their community, like it's all worth it. Thank you. I 1:28:26.120 --> 1:28:28.439 want to ask next and I'll ask you both again 1:28:28.600 --> 1:28:33.479 kind of same question. Where do you see the armed 1:28:33.600 --> 1:28:36.720 left moving? Particularly in this next year's We kind of 1:28:36.800 --> 1:28:39.559 get through our last or start go through our last 1:28:40.240 --> 1:28:44.400 blessed year before election? Um, what are some things that 1:28:44.600 --> 1:28:46.560 that are on your radar? What are some things that 1:28:46.680 --> 1:28:49.160 you're sort of expecting to see? What are some things 1:28:49.200 --> 1:28:57.840 that you're worried about? Saying a lot, it's a big ques. 1:28:57.880 --> 1:29:00.559 I try to keep it to a year, right, Yeah, 1:29:00.800 --> 1:29:03.840 but yeah, you know, I like I worry a lot. 1:29:03.960 --> 1:29:05.640 I try not to get too caught up in it 1:29:05.720 --> 1:29:08.640 because life will surprise you, you know. Um, But I 1:29:08.720 --> 1:29:11.920 think ultimately, like where I live, we are facing down 1:29:11.960 --> 1:29:15.800 a really tight governor race in which if the Republican 1:29:15.920 --> 1:29:20.080 candidate wins UM, a lot of work that has been 1:29:20.160 --> 1:29:23.559 put to, you know, codify abortion rights, workers rights, things 1:29:23.600 --> 1:29:27.040 like that, will be reversed by this governor. Um. And 1:29:28.360 --> 1:29:31.559 it's something that a lot of people are worried about, 1:29:32.000 --> 1:29:37.120 myself included, and where I live, even within city limits, 1:29:37.320 --> 1:29:42.519 there are white supremacists flags, Confederate flags, even just like 1:29:42.600 --> 1:29:45.679 a couple of miles from my house, And so there's 1:29:45.680 --> 1:29:48.760 a lot of fear around that becoming even more emboldened. 1:29:49.400 --> 1:29:54.080 Even though we managed to fight back a lot and deterred, 1:29:54.720 --> 1:29:58.840 it doesn't mean that they're not taking this moment the right, 1:29:58.960 --> 1:30:02.760 the fast right to restrategize and to recalibrate what they 1:30:02.800 --> 1:30:05.680 want to do next. Um. And so it kind of 1:30:05.760 --> 1:30:10.680 feels like we're in the calm before the storm. Oh man. Uh, 1:30:11.040 --> 1:30:13.040 not like the J six storm. That's not what I mean, 1:30:13.240 --> 1:30:16.519 but like genuinely what it will actually look like, because 1:30:16.520 --> 1:30:18.479 I don't think it's gonna be I don't think there's 1:30:18.520 --> 1:30:20.879 gonna be like you know, we meet at the football 1:30:20.920 --> 1:30:23.240 field and we have like our drummers out and like 1:30:23.320 --> 1:30:25.040 our little pipe players out, and then we have a 1:30:25.080 --> 1:30:30.160 thought of that it's gonna be like urban like warfare, 1:30:30.240 --> 1:30:32.120 is what I think. Um. And a lot of other 1:30:32.160 --> 1:30:34.599 people think that too. And you just throw in climate 1:30:34.720 --> 1:30:37.920 change as a treat like we don't know what the 1:30:38.200 --> 1:30:41.160 literal climate is going to be like. Um. And so 1:30:41.280 --> 1:30:43.519 it really just feels like there's multiple fronts right now. 1:30:43.720 --> 1:30:48.960 But it seems like climate change or the fascist will 1:30:49.160 --> 1:30:51.760 kill me before my smoking habit will And a lot 1:30:51.800 --> 1:30:55.840 of people think that too. Yeah, I mean, I I 1:30:56.000 --> 1:30:59.599 do anecdotally know a lot of people who justify their 1:30:59.680 --> 1:31:04.040 sick at use with Mike. Look, there's wildfires all around 1:31:04.120 --> 1:31:08.080 my house. I'm not worried about the Marboros. It is. 1:31:08.280 --> 1:31:11.080 It is October and the city of Portland is blanketed 1:31:11.160 --> 1:31:13.160 and smoke. I don't know if the cigarettes are going 1:31:13.200 --> 1:31:16.640 to get me. Stephen, did you did you want to 1:31:16.680 --> 1:31:22.160 go next? Yeah? Well, I mean, you know, the fact 1:31:22.240 --> 1:31:26.800 that a ship posting account gained some traction, maybe there's 1:31:26.880 --> 1:31:31.080 hope yet. Um, I don't know, but ship posting will 1:31:31.200 --> 1:31:34.640 save us in the end. It's it's another one on 1:31:34.720 --> 1:31:37.320 the board for ship posting. Let's put it that way. 1:31:38.080 --> 1:31:42.960 So looking forward to what are we dealing with? Well, 1:31:43.320 --> 1:31:47.639 Texas is uh deep in it right now. Um, we're 1:31:47.720 --> 1:31:51.400 one of the sort of laboratories of fascism in the 1:31:51.479 --> 1:31:54.519 United States at the moment, sort of a spear tip 1:31:54.920 --> 1:31:58.720 of a lot of really bad stuff really just like 1:31:59.280 --> 1:32:04.600 you know, codifying in the state, oppressive things, things that 1:32:04.720 --> 1:32:09.519 they just talk about in other states. Um. And so yeah, 1:32:09.840 --> 1:32:13.880 our governor's race, Uh, basically it doesn't either, you know, 1:32:14.000 --> 1:32:19.280 kind of split things because our lieutenant governor runs independently 1:32:19.320 --> 1:32:20.960 of the governor. And you know, the House is a 1:32:21.000 --> 1:32:24.720 whole other thing. Yeah, if it goes far right, Um, 1:32:25.600 --> 1:32:28.880 which a ton of money has been spent, billions and 1:32:28.960 --> 1:32:34.120 billions from people in the industry that's primarily responsible for 1:32:34.200 --> 1:32:38.439 destroying the planet are um pushing that to make it happen, 1:32:38.520 --> 1:32:41.040 and so that all works their way, then yeah, we're 1:32:41.040 --> 1:32:47.400 probably going to get some uh seriously bad laws, really 1:32:48.280 --> 1:32:53.760 bad state sponsored violence, a variety of forms, and yeah, 1:32:53.840 --> 1:32:56.800 people are already thinking to themselves like do I want 1:32:56.800 --> 1:33:00.559 to live in the state anymore? Um. But that's also 1:33:01.760 --> 1:33:05.519 basically what the extreme people on the right want is 1:33:05.720 --> 1:33:08.320 to either just get rid of these people one way 1:33:08.400 --> 1:33:14.080 or another. UM. And so some people don't want that. Obviously. 1:33:14.200 --> 1:33:17.120 Some people don't have a choice to leave because it's 1:33:17.160 --> 1:33:19.559 expensive to move and they may be tied to their 1:33:19.600 --> 1:33:24.240 families and other sorts of things. So, uh, I don't 1:33:24.320 --> 1:33:28.599 like to predict the future because history is we keep 1:33:28.680 --> 1:33:31.120 pumping shells into it and it keeps getting back up, 1:33:31.720 --> 1:33:35.080 and uh, it's just gonna happen, And I don't really 1:33:36.040 --> 1:33:39.519 know exactly. I just I'm very thankful that there are 1:33:39.720 --> 1:33:43.240 people and groups in my state that are trying to 1:33:43.360 --> 1:33:48.360 protect vulnerable people UM, and people working to hopefully make 1:33:48.479 --> 1:33:52.320 it not super bad. UM. So I think like the 1:33:52.400 --> 1:33:56.519 optimistic view is that it won't be all totally terrible, horrible, 1:33:56.960 --> 1:34:03.400 but it'll be still kind of same same. Um, you know, yes, yeah, 1:34:04.080 --> 1:34:06.479 that's kind of like how I see broad speaking, you know, 1:34:06.600 --> 1:34:11.439 the big projection cone. Otherwise, Um, I'm not sure. Yeah, 1:34:11.920 --> 1:34:13.679 ship is going to be fucked up, but at least 1:34:13.720 --> 1:34:17.120 we'll have friends. Hopefully it'll be wavy and it will 1:34:17.160 --> 1:34:20.040 be about the friends that we make along the way. Yeah, 1:34:20.600 --> 1:34:25.439 I'll listen to joke. Do either of you have anything 1:34:25.479 --> 1:34:28.200 else you'd like to talk about or or or bring 1:34:28.320 --> 1:34:30.560 up or say before we kind of bring this to 1:34:30.680 --> 1:34:34.640 a close. I guess I'm just like I was kind 1:34:34.680 --> 1:34:39.519 of surprised how h decent that the panel went. Um, 1:34:40.640 --> 1:34:44.160 you know, the anti fascist coalition can be broad because 1:34:44.200 --> 1:34:47.840 it is a sort of anti thing. It's not necessarily positivist. 1:34:48.000 --> 1:34:51.200 But you know, maybe that's another episode to describe, you know, 1:34:51.479 --> 1:34:55.280 why it's important to also perhaps have a positivist message 1:34:56.000 --> 1:35:00.360 along with what you're trying to do in response to fascism. Um. 1:35:01.200 --> 1:35:04.679 And you know, like more discussions like this hopefully will happen, 1:35:04.760 --> 1:35:07.439 and I think they could be improved by like not 1:35:07.680 --> 1:35:12.120 all four panelists being white dudes. That would probably be helpful. Um, 1:35:14.000 --> 1:35:22.240 as a thought, Yeah, well yeah, that that was actually 1:35:22.320 --> 1:35:24.320 the first thing I wrote on my my note page 1:35:24.400 --> 1:35:27.519 is that it was for I should have said that earlier, 1:35:27.880 --> 1:35:33.559 so you know, I'm just playing. But I think one 1:35:33.600 --> 1:35:35.640 thing I want to add is like, similar to what 1:35:35.760 --> 1:35:38.320 you were saying, Stephen, was kind of like what is 1:35:38.479 --> 1:35:43.760 the pro positive thing? And ultimately, like to me, it's 1:35:43.760 --> 1:35:45.240 like the city that I live in, there's a lot 1:35:45.280 --> 1:35:48.040 of decentralized mutual A groups that got a lot of 1:35:48.120 --> 1:35:51.479 people through the pandemic and still provide daily relief to 1:35:51.560 --> 1:35:55.759 people consistently. Like I'm in like a million fucking signal 1:35:55.880 --> 1:35:58.919 chats where people post a need and it gets met eventually, 1:36:00.280 --> 1:36:03.960 and it's like I'm pro that mutual aid and like 1:36:05.040 --> 1:36:08.400 it's something that I mean, maybe it's the only thing 1:36:08.479 --> 1:36:11.120 that will really get us through whatever is to come UM. 1:36:11.200 --> 1:36:15.960 And that's just like pro community building UM and coalition building, 1:36:16.040 --> 1:36:20.040 whatever that looks like in your community. Maybe if we 1:36:20.120 --> 1:36:22.160 want to talk about mutual aid you can. I know, 1:36:22.240 --> 1:36:23.840 you guys do a lot of fundraises. I think that's 1:36:23.920 --> 1:36:26.680 a really cool thing certain distinguishes you from a lot 1:36:26.720 --> 1:36:28.960 of other gun clubs. So maybe you want to talk 1:36:28.960 --> 1:36:32.120 about a couple of those, maybe plug those, you know, 1:36:32.280 --> 1:36:35.000 I would plug our fontwork patches, but we just sold 1:36:35.040 --> 1:36:39.880 out of the second batch. It's a it is. We 1:36:40.000 --> 1:36:44.360 didn't think people would care that much, especially the first round, 1:36:44.439 --> 1:36:47.320 and so the second round we only ordered a hundred 1:36:47.520 --> 1:36:50.280 and it's pulled out in a day. Those are supporting 1:36:50.320 --> 1:36:53.760 the resistance in Me and mar right, yes, yes, people 1:36:53.800 --> 1:36:55.960 are getting them by donating directly to Liberate Me and 1:36:56.040 --> 1:36:59.880 mar and then someone sends them a cool while word 1:37:00.040 --> 1:37:05.120 hatch um. And it's one of many fundraisers we've done. 1:37:05.200 --> 1:37:08.720 We recently have done a couple for folks in Ukraine. UM. 1:37:08.800 --> 1:37:13.640 We help them funds an ambulance out there. UM. I 1:37:13.680 --> 1:37:16.559 can't remember the Instagram handle right now. UM. We've also 1:37:16.640 --> 1:37:19.120 done a bunch for like a group in Portland, for example, 1:37:19.160 --> 1:37:21.960 Black and Beyond the Binary. UM. I think we've done 1:37:22.000 --> 1:37:25.320 to actually for Liberate Me and Mar UM, but it's 1:37:25.400 --> 1:37:28.120 just something that you know, we don't do this for money, 1:37:28.880 --> 1:37:32.000 and we also want to support other groups doing things 1:37:32.160 --> 1:37:35.719 that we support, especially like popular fronts that are fighting 1:37:35.760 --> 1:37:39.840 back against authoritarian regimes. UM and hoping that you know, 1:37:40.040 --> 1:37:41.800 if ship hits the fan here, that people will do 1:37:41.880 --> 1:37:46.080 that for us to UM because we really value international 1:37:46.200 --> 1:37:49.760 solidarity and you know, as corny as it is, we're 1:37:49.920 --> 1:37:52.439 you know, we're like we got us, you know, we 1:37:52.680 --> 1:37:57.240 fend us, not George Soros, but um, you know, it's 1:37:57.280 --> 1:37:59.719 something that brings us joy to be able to help 1:38:00.320 --> 1:38:05.519 and um, as mostly anarchists, we really believe that, like, 1:38:05.920 --> 1:38:08.800 we are all that we have and we can't wait 1:38:08.880 --> 1:38:11.760 for someone else to to, you know, a benefactor to 1:38:11.800 --> 1:38:13.439 come and save us, because that ship is just not 1:38:13.560 --> 1:38:17.960 going to happen. Yeah, it's great. Where can folks find 1:38:18.000 --> 1:38:21.280 you on the interweb they want to follow along? We 1:38:21.360 --> 1:38:26.519 can find us on Instagram at Yellow dot Peril dot Practical. 1:38:27.160 --> 1:38:28.519 You have to spell it out, I think, because I 1:38:28.560 --> 1:38:33.439 think we're shadow band right now. Our Twitter, regrettably is 1:38:33.800 --> 1:38:38.320 y P T Actual. We also have a website just 1:38:38.479 --> 1:38:40.519 Yellow Peril Tactical dot com. We just took it so 1:38:40.560 --> 1:38:43.280 no one else could. Um, but that's where you can 1:38:43.360 --> 1:38:48.479 mainly find us. We are primarily on Instagram, um, but 1:38:48.680 --> 1:38:52.160 most of our stuff is on Twitter. If you really 1:38:52.280 --> 1:38:55.600 want to see a ship post, go on Twitter. We 1:38:55.720 --> 1:38:59.240 recently got into it with this person and Oregon over 1:38:59.320 --> 1:39:02.519 the gun control measure. Um, and let me tell you 1:39:02.800 --> 1:39:06.959 it was a hoot, but also a little like maddening 1:39:07.080 --> 1:39:10.280 because this guy, Yeah, this guy actually ties into how 1:39:10.360 --> 1:39:13.280 we opened the episode because he was he's a local 1:39:14.120 --> 1:39:20.200 liberal uh thought leader guy who uh saw two pictures 1:39:20.240 --> 1:39:22.920 of people with guns, one of them being fascists and 1:39:23.080 --> 1:39:25.960 one of them being one of y'all and was like, 1:39:26.200 --> 1:39:30.519 clearly these are the same thing. Um, it was a 1:39:30.560 --> 1:39:35.000 good time vote now on one fourteen in my opinion, uh, 1:39:36.720 --> 1:39:38.479 if you're in the state of Oregon. But we'll talk 1:39:38.520 --> 1:39:41.400 about that at a later point. Stephen, Um, you want 1:39:41.439 --> 1:39:45.040 to plug you first off, obviously, really good work UM 1:39:45.280 --> 1:39:47.639 on the panel. I want to plug that for folks 1:39:47.760 --> 1:39:50.640 because I think it is really worth a listen. Um, 1:39:50.800 --> 1:39:52.840 as everyone is here said, there's a lot of good 1:39:53.320 --> 1:39:58.240 historical information in there and uh and and your contributions 1:39:58.240 --> 1:40:01.600 are invaluable. So folks can check that out. If you 1:40:01.720 --> 1:40:06.160 just google Cato Institute Domestic Extremism and Political Violence, you'll 1:40:06.160 --> 1:40:08.599 find it. And how else can people find you? Stephen? 1:40:10.040 --> 1:40:14.360 You can also find me on Twitter. UM, I will 1:40:14.880 --> 1:40:18.840 make sure that my handle is there. It's at Steve 1:40:18.960 --> 1:40:23.280 van Zetti. Ste van Zetti as in the you know, 1:40:23.560 --> 1:40:27.760 one of the two that got killed by the state unjustly. Um. 1:40:28.520 --> 1:40:33.680 Because it's anti Italian discrimination. So um right, digress um, 1:40:34.240 --> 1:40:38.320 the you can find me there. Protean is obviously something 1:40:38.400 --> 1:40:39.760 that I work with, and I would say check that 1:40:39.760 --> 1:40:42.600 out as well. It's at prodi and mag. Uh that 1:40:42.760 --> 1:40:47.200 has a website prodian mag dot com. Um, and anything 1:40:47.240 --> 1:40:48.880 else that you want to know about me you can 1:40:48.960 --> 1:40:52.640 either find on Twitter or Google. There's really only like 1:40:52.920 --> 1:40:56.080 two guys named Stephen Monta Chelli in the entire state 1:40:56.720 --> 1:40:59.320 United States, and the other ones like a C. P 1:40:59.520 --> 1:41:02.920 A in his sixties, so it's just not that one. Um, 1:41:03.400 --> 1:41:07.639 and yeah, you can find me there. Excellent. Um, well, 1:41:07.720 --> 1:41:09.680 I'm glad we got to end on a Saco and 1:41:09.760 --> 1:41:32.280 Vanzetti reference. And uh yeah, everybody go help somebody. Could 1:41:32.360 --> 1:41:36.360 it happen here? I don't know, but I get paid 1:41:36.640 --> 1:41:38.639 whether or not we find an answer to that question. 1:41:38.920 --> 1:41:41.759 This has been the introduction to the podcast. I'm Robert Evans. 1:41:42.160 --> 1:41:49.480 Hello everyone else, Hello, Hello, good morning afternoon. This is Garrison. 1:41:50.080 --> 1:41:54.000 We have Sharene and we also have our friend prop 1:41:54.160 --> 1:41:58.120 from Hood Politics here. Hello. Greetings, y'all talk to me nice. 1:41:58.280 --> 1:42:02.280 I fully respect the transparency about like, well you get 1:42:02.320 --> 1:42:05.960 paid regardless, yeah, exactly, exactly when or not. We learned 1:42:06.000 --> 1:42:08.439 if it could happen here. Here's the thing. When I 1:42:08.560 --> 1:42:10.360 used to teach high school, which believe it or not, 1:42:10.439 --> 1:42:13.599 I did taught ninth graders. We was like maybe eight 1:42:13.720 --> 1:42:17.960 years apart at the time, and uh uh there was 1:42:18.000 --> 1:42:20.439 at one point and I taught Inner City and it 1:42:20.600 --> 1:42:23.720 was it was at one point, I uh, I got 1:42:23.800 --> 1:42:27.519 this idea from one of my like uh like mentor 1:42:27.640 --> 1:42:30.200 teachers where I was like, okay, check this out. So 1:42:30.320 --> 1:42:34.320 I made you remember overhead transparencies. Yeah, I do for sure. 1:42:34.800 --> 1:42:38.160 So I made one of my check It was like, 1:42:38.720 --> 1:42:40.880 I'm just gonna put this because I'm just gonna put 1:42:40.960 --> 1:42:44.720 this up here because like y'all can do your work 1:42:44.800 --> 1:42:49.599 or not. YO said, like I get paid either way. 1:42:49.720 --> 1:42:51.519 I care. That's why I show up and I try 1:42:51.600 --> 1:42:56.280 so hard, you know, but you're not hurting me by 1:42:58.600 --> 1:43:05.720 whatever bellion you're practicing here like this this is who 1:43:06.000 --> 1:43:09.040 ends at three o'clock. At three oh five, I forgot 1:43:09.360 --> 1:43:13.000 everything you said to me, you know, so you're not 1:43:13.240 --> 1:43:16.880 hurting me. Now. If you want to make me earn this, 1:43:17.800 --> 1:43:20.519 then let's get busy, you know. And it was like, 1:43:20.600 --> 1:43:22.360 no man gonna earn this. I was like, all right, 1:43:22.439 --> 1:43:25.280 let's go to it. You know, I was a great teacher, 1:43:26.479 --> 1:43:28.639 do you know, I mean I may have turned off 1:43:28.640 --> 1:43:32.400 a few people, but I don't know that. Do you 1:43:32.479 --> 1:43:37.160 know what does hurt me proper? What hurt you? Oh? God, Garrett, 1:43:40.720 --> 1:43:46.519 the main streaming eventI semitic rhetoric. Um, you did a 1:43:46.520 --> 1:43:49.800 good job there, Garrison. Great? You know what, you know 1:43:49.920 --> 1:43:53.000 what put putting in for a commendation for you. You're 1:43:53.000 --> 1:43:56.120 gonna get a little trophy from the company for that one. Hey, homie, 1:43:56.200 --> 1:44:00.720 that was Garrison. That was Yeah, so a varsity bro, 1:44:01.320 --> 1:44:05.519 was varsity fan. Unfortunately, today we're gonna be talking about 1:44:06.320 --> 1:44:10.280 Kanye West. There's a lot of elements to this topic 1:44:10.640 --> 1:44:14.360 of discussion between the media's coverage of what's happened, isn't 1:44:14.360 --> 1:44:21.880 it ye now Garrison? Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, okay. 1:44:23.600 --> 1:44:30.400 So the thing is like it like at some point 1:44:30.800 --> 1:44:36.479 probably now I am I have refused to talk about 1:44:36.880 --> 1:44:41.800 same yeah you know, uh and specifically even covering it, 1:44:42.400 --> 1:44:45.080 you know, on the pod. But it's definitely time to 1:44:45.200 --> 1:44:48.720 be like, you know, whose man's is this? Yeah? You know, 1:44:48.960 --> 1:44:51.720 like come on, somebody can get somebody can get your 1:44:51.760 --> 1:44:54.880 man's here. You know what I'm saying, um, yeah, there's 1:44:54.880 --> 1:44:56.840 a lot of different kind of parts of this between 1:44:57.040 --> 1:44:59.479 how the media has been covering it the past month, 1:45:00.320 --> 1:45:04.200 his own like history of like attention grabbing spectacle, the 1:45:04.240 --> 1:45:08.400 whole mental health side of things. There's religion has uptakeing 1:45:08.560 --> 1:45:11.200 the meta comments, and how the rights has been reacting. 1:45:11.800 --> 1:45:13.800 There's there's there's a lot a lot of stuff based 1:45:13.880 --> 1:45:17.320 on you know, a few a few not not great statements, 1:45:17.400 --> 1:45:22.240 and a lot of interesting things have revolved around him. 1:45:23.000 --> 1:45:32.720 Just pick your favorite subversive artists from fifteen years ago 1:45:35.000 --> 1:45:40.680 and then picture that person doing this, just like on, 1:45:41.680 --> 1:45:45.200 come on, My favorite subversive artists from fifteen years ago 1:45:45.320 --> 1:45:52.320 might have been Dave Chappelle. You know, my my favorite 1:45:52.400 --> 1:45:54.639 subversive artist from fifteen years ago, it was probably Steve 1:45:54.720 --> 1:46:00.200 from Blues Clues. Hey, Steve remains remains solid. He's yeah, 1:46:00.200 --> 1:46:02.640 he's a hero. Oh wait, no, I'm now seeing on 1:46:02.840 --> 1:46:11.519 Deadline that he has recently embraced white nationalism words tattooed 1:46:11.600 --> 1:46:13.400 on the back of his head next to the blue 1:46:13.479 --> 1:46:19.560 paw print. Oh dear, Steve is fine, he's kidding, that 1:46:19.640 --> 1:46:24.240 didn't happen, but yeah, absolutely, Because you're like and knowing 1:46:24.520 --> 1:46:29.840 all of it's it is, And I hope I'm not. 1:46:30.040 --> 1:46:31.880 I hope I'm not co opting this whole show, but 1:46:32.040 --> 1:46:38.479 it's it is. The Tyra Banks clip from America's Top 1:46:38.520 --> 1:46:41.720 Model words like we we believe, we all believed in you, 1:46:42.000 --> 1:46:48.000 just furious, like we got damn it. We believed in you. 1:46:48.520 --> 1:46:51.360 You know yeah yeah. And as the perspective of like 1:46:51.479 --> 1:46:55.160 a younger person who wasn't really around for I guess 1:46:55.240 --> 1:46:58.679 when Kanye was better, this stuff has not been surprising 1:46:58.720 --> 1:47:01.839 to be because I've only been watching him the past decade, 1:47:02.080 --> 1:47:04.439 and that's kind of what we're gonna talk about. I 1:47:04.560 --> 1:47:06.519 would it would probably be fair to call me like 1:47:06.720 --> 1:47:10.479 a casual knower of Kanye, but I'm I'm I'm much 1:47:10.520 --> 1:47:14.040 older than you, Garrison, And so I remember George Bush 1:47:14.080 --> 1:47:16.880 doesn't care about black people, which was like, that's the 1:47:16.960 --> 1:47:20.400 height of all that seems that seems accurate. That was 1:47:20.439 --> 1:47:23.360 the high water point when we were like he's for 1:47:23.520 --> 1:47:26.599 the generation, this is this is a new breed, because 1:47:27.000 --> 1:47:32.600 but what's what's what's ill is like it was obviously 1:47:34.240 --> 1:47:39.920 a sign of his manicness. Looking in retrospect, it was like, oh, 1:47:40.040 --> 1:47:41.720 he was in a manic episode. I mean and the 1:47:41.800 --> 1:47:44.639 other thing is that he really just has a history 1:47:45.080 --> 1:47:50.360 of basic contrarianism, so he'll he'll he'll oppose George W. 1:47:50.600 --> 1:47:53.080 Bush because that's the contrarian thing to do. At the 1:47:53.160 --> 1:47:56.240 moment post on eleven, everyone was very pro Obama. Someone 1:47:56.280 --> 1:47:58.840 said he's gonna be pro Trump because he's gonna he's 1:47:58.840 --> 1:48:02.280 gonna try to be that some of and that's only 1:48:02.320 --> 1:48:06.920 been a pattern throughout his career. It just such to 1:48:06.960 --> 1:48:10.040 see it go ahead. I'm not I'm not an expert 1:48:10.120 --> 1:48:12.680 on his music. I wasn't particularly a fan. But the 1:48:12.760 --> 1:48:15.160 thing I know that, like everyone talked about his motherfucker's 1:48:15.160 --> 1:48:17.479 sampled blood on the leaves, like and now that's a 1:48:18.080 --> 1:48:20.880 But also at the time it was like, wow, this 1:48:21.040 --> 1:48:23.599 is you know, he's he's he's he's trying to say something. 1:48:23.800 --> 1:48:25.800 And now there's a degree to which it's like, well, 1:48:25.920 --> 1:48:30.400 was that just the most contrarians a move he could 1:48:30.479 --> 1:48:34.800 be making, right, Yeah, And like what you said, prop 1:48:34.840 --> 1:48:37.240 But like initially when this when the when the T 1:48:37.360 --> 1:48:39.320 shirt and stuff was happening at Paris Fashion Week, I 1:48:39.439 --> 1:48:40.960 really did not want to talk about this because I 1:48:41.000 --> 1:48:43.599 thought it was just another one of Kanye's publicity stunts 1:48:43.920 --> 1:48:45.920 kind of in line with his mega hat and Trump 1:48:45.960 --> 1:48:48.479 appearances from a few years ago. And I didn't want 1:48:48.479 --> 1:48:51.280 to like play into the media cycle of just amplifying 1:48:51.479 --> 1:48:53.800 these stunts that Kanye does, which I think kind of 1:48:53.880 --> 1:48:57.800 feeds into and encourages this kind of behavior. But then 1:48:58.080 --> 1:49:00.920 Kanye went on Tucker and started hosting on the Internet, 1:49:01.280 --> 1:49:04.800 and things have gotten a lot worse since then, And 1:49:04.880 --> 1:49:07.519 now I feel like it actually is we should now 1:49:07.600 --> 1:49:09.920 actually talk about this because there's some interesting things going 1:49:09.960 --> 1:49:12.200 on um and ideally we can talk about it in 1:49:12.280 --> 1:49:14.680 a way that's actually useful and that we can gain 1:49:14.720 --> 1:49:18.040 insights from and not just you know, highlighting the bigoted 1:49:18.080 --> 1:49:21.400 and unhinged things that a public figure has said. So 1:49:21.600 --> 1:49:24.400 and I think kind of feigning with shock her surprisement 1:49:24.640 --> 1:49:28.160 at his recent actions and behavior and statements is mostly 1:49:28.200 --> 1:49:30.759 not useful, like as opposed to just like clearly condemning 1:49:31.439 --> 1:49:34.680 bigotry and anti semitism and doing like the platforming and 1:49:34.760 --> 1:49:37.760 also upon this, upon the news of the t shirt 1:49:37.800 --> 1:49:42.200 stunt and the pointless matter stuff and anti semitism, I 1:49:42.640 --> 1:49:45.280 was not actually really surprised because I kind of saw 1:49:45.400 --> 1:49:48.560 this as a natural evolution of the logical progression of 1:49:48.720 --> 1:49:51.400 the type of bit that Kandie has been doing, particularly 1:49:51.520 --> 1:49:53.519 for the past five years, and that's kind of the 1:49:53.600 --> 1:49:55.720 angle that we're going to approach this with. I think 1:49:55.760 --> 1:49:59.719 we should probably start by talking about, well, the types 1:49:59.800 --> 1:50:02.600 of alignments Kanye has had over the course of his 1:50:02.800 --> 1:50:05.479 career towards Christianity and how that kind of reached the 1:50:05.560 --> 1:50:09.320 peak in so you can see the kind of earliest 1:50:09.320 --> 1:50:11.240 tense of this type of thing. It's pretty dumb a 1:50:11.320 --> 1:50:14.720 song like Jesus Walks into Us and four um, and 1:50:14.840 --> 1:50:18.160 then he kind of does some cool stuff. We get 1:50:18.200 --> 1:50:21.040 to the album ease Us, which kind of revolves around 1:50:21.120 --> 1:50:25.920 self like deification. I never expected to hear you say 1:50:26.080 --> 1:50:32.920 Jesus awesome, okay, which is which is a pretty good album, 1:50:32.960 --> 1:50:35.479 and it kind of it's it's it's before he gets 1:50:35.560 --> 1:50:40.080 actually into like Christ. It's it's more like God as 1:50:40.160 --> 1:50:42.560 like a spiritual force that you can interact with and 1:50:42.640 --> 1:50:46.200 you can like align can like align yourself with um 1:50:46.800 --> 1:50:48.720 can I can I fill in the can I fill 1:50:48.760 --> 1:50:54.719 in the absolutely walks area? Yeah? Like important important context 1:50:54.760 --> 1:50:57.439 about Kanye one is understanding how the South Side of 1:50:57.520 --> 1:51:02.759 Chicago is, you know, and it's like to be black. 1:51:04.080 --> 1:51:10.479 There's like, you're not. How do I say? This church 1:51:11.640 --> 1:51:17.599 is as normal as dinner with in in our community, 1:51:17.720 --> 1:51:21.320 specifically in the South side of Chicago. Of course, of course, 1:51:21.360 --> 1:51:24.400 your daddy's a deacon. Of course, your mom teaches Sunday school. 1:51:24.439 --> 1:51:28.280 Of course, the most hardened of criminals will stop and 1:51:28.400 --> 1:51:30.560 talk to mother Johnson when they see her on the 1:51:30.600 --> 1:51:33.040 side of the road because she was your Sunday school teacher, 1:51:33.479 --> 1:51:36.160 you know, so and you still come every Sunday. Like 1:51:36.280 --> 1:51:41.760 it's just such a part so the Christian idea, it's 1:51:41.920 --> 1:51:45.760 such a part, an integral part of our of our community, 1:51:45.880 --> 1:51:48.280 and of course of his because he's just one of us, 1:51:48.800 --> 1:51:51.600 you know, um that of course he's going to do 1:51:51.640 --> 1:51:54.880 a song called Jesus Walks, you know, um of course, 1:51:55.040 --> 1:51:58.360 and of course he actually probably the whole time, believed 1:51:58.400 --> 1:52:02.360 he was a Christian, you know, because of because we 1:52:02.479 --> 1:52:06.120 all are, you know, saying like and unless you come 1:52:06.200 --> 1:52:08.679 from like the f ol I or like Nation Islam 1:52:08.720 --> 1:52:12.800 stuff situation like specifically just what black people were just 1:52:13.200 --> 1:52:16.559 we just went to church, you know. So in all 1:52:16.640 --> 1:52:18.839 of our all of our musicians, you take the greatest 1:52:18.920 --> 1:52:21.040 musicians of any of our times, they used to be 1:52:22.200 --> 1:52:25.559 choir singers, they used to be in the worship band, 1:52:25.760 --> 1:52:28.160 like we just it's just a part of our life, 1:52:28.600 --> 1:52:33.920 you know. So so for him to do that was 1:52:34.040 --> 1:52:39.679 not strange. What was strange was him thinking it was unique. 1:52:40.680 --> 1:52:42.560 That was the part that was so weird about like 1:52:42.800 --> 1:52:46.320 why you think this is there's like, you know, there's 1:52:46.320 --> 1:52:48.360 the aspect of thinking that some of the gospel type 1:52:48.360 --> 1:52:51.240 of stuff he was doing was unique, which yeah, maybe 1:52:51.240 --> 1:52:53.679 it was unique for me on such such a large platform, 1:52:53.760 --> 1:52:56.559 but it was not new. And the the the other 1:52:56.680 --> 1:52:58.599 thing that is different is that there is a difference 1:52:58.640 --> 1:53:02.120 between the type of the type of like black churches 1:53:02.160 --> 1:53:08.320 you're talking about and white Christian evangelical born again very 1:53:08.360 --> 1:53:10.720 different around conversion, which is what he starts getting into. 1:53:10.800 --> 1:53:13.920 And yeah, what he became, you know what I'm saying, 1:53:14.000 --> 1:53:15.640 But that's not that's why I was like, let me 1:53:15.680 --> 1:53:17.639 give it. That's so that's why I like, at first, 1:53:18.280 --> 1:53:21.640 and I'm speaking as somebody who also came from like 1:53:21.920 --> 1:53:26.160 a very person of color experience and with Christianity and 1:53:26.280 --> 1:53:32.559 then finding you know, sort of white evangelicalism and thinking 1:53:32.640 --> 1:53:36.639 because we're using the same words that we're talking about 1:53:36.680 --> 1:53:40.680 the same thing, and then about five minutes sitting at 1:53:40.720 --> 1:53:46.720 that table, you're just like, oh oh, you just kind 1:53:46.760 --> 1:53:48.519 of like make the little piece outside and let me 1:53:48.560 --> 1:53:51.080 slide out, because clearly we don't believe the same things. 1:53:51.280 --> 1:53:53.920 You know. I first found your music as I was 1:53:54.000 --> 1:53:58.000 kind of me and my family were exiting evangelicalism. Yeah, 1:53:58.320 --> 1:54:00.320 and that was a very useful kind of depth that 1:54:00.400 --> 1:54:02.560 was still using some familiar language, but it was like 1:54:02.880 --> 1:54:08.519 going in a better direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um. So 1:54:08.640 --> 1:54:10.880 I think that the next kind of notable thing is 1:54:11.080 --> 1:54:16.040 the more gospel esque album Life of Pablo, allegedly inspired 1:54:16.080 --> 1:54:18.760 by the life of the biblical Paul. And there's the 1:54:18.880 --> 1:54:23.599 song Ultra Ultra light Beam, which features contemporary gospel superstar 1:54:23.720 --> 1:54:26.160 Kirk Franklin and Chance the Rapper, who is also a 1:54:26.479 --> 1:54:31.040 very open Christian. Yeah. Uh. Then he GANI has a 1:54:31.120 --> 1:54:34.160 few years of dealing with mental health stuff. He gets hospitalized, 1:54:34.760 --> 1:54:37.240 he comes out of the hospital, and then in April, 1:54:37.920 --> 1:54:42.480 he some somewhere around sixteen, he kind of endorses Trump 1:54:42.720 --> 1:54:47.480 kind of um. But then but then in April West 1:54:47.560 --> 1:54:50.600 sends out a series of tweets expressing admiration for Trump, 1:54:50.760 --> 1:54:53.640 including that he felt he was his brother and they 1:54:53.720 --> 1:54:58.280 both have quote dragon energy. Um people like Trance of 1:54:58.320 --> 1:55:02.240 Rapper initially came to West defend saying that black people 1:55:02.280 --> 1:55:05.000 don't have to be Democrats, which he later apologized for, 1:55:05.160 --> 1:55:06.960 and a lot of tweets that were up that are 1:55:07.000 --> 1:55:11.000 now gone. Yes, and then one of the kind of 1:55:11.080 --> 1:55:13.920 worst inclinations of where things are kind of going was 1:55:14.040 --> 1:55:18.360 a fucking TMZ interview which was supposed was which was 1:55:18.600 --> 1:55:21.760 supposed to be about Congye's support of Trump, but then 1:55:21.840 --> 1:55:23.920 he went on to make some pretty gross comments about 1:55:23.960 --> 1:55:28.280 black people choosing to be enslaved. I don't think people 1:55:28.360 --> 1:55:32.520 necessarily understand what happened last week with the Great America 1:55:33.080 --> 1:55:35.640 America great again? Hat What are you trying to do 1:55:35.800 --> 1:55:39.800 with the message you're sending? Well, it was really just 1:55:39.960 --> 1:55:43.040 my subconscious It was a feeling I had, you know, 1:55:43.280 --> 1:55:46.400 like people were taught how to think, we're taught how 1:55:46.440 --> 1:55:48.280 to feel. We don't know how to think for ourselves. 1:55:48.360 --> 1:55:50.200 We don't know how to feel for ourselves. People say 1:55:50.280 --> 1:55:52.880 feel free, but they don't really want us to feel free. 1:55:53.080 --> 1:55:56.560 And uh, I felt a freedom and first of all, 1:55:56.720 --> 1:55:59.800 just doing something that everybody tells you not to do. 1:56:00.520 --> 1:56:03.400 I just loved Trump. Do you hear about slavery for 1:56:03.440 --> 1:56:06.120 four hundred years, for four hundred years, that sounds like 1:56:06.200 --> 1:56:10.560 a choice, Like he was there for four hundred years, 1:56:10.600 --> 1:56:13.640 and it's all of y'all, you know, like it's like 1:56:13.840 --> 1:56:16.440 we're mentally in prison. I like the word prison because 1:56:16.480 --> 1:56:20.960 slavery goes to to direct to the idea of blacks. 1:56:21.120 --> 1:56:25.400 It's like slavery holocaust, Holocaust students, slavery is blacks. So 1:56:25.600 --> 1:56:28.520 prison is something that unites us as one race, blacks 1:56:28.560 --> 1:56:32.120 and whites being one race. Uh, that we're one were 1:56:32.160 --> 1:56:36.680 the human race. And fun fact, like Van who stood 1:56:36.760 --> 1:56:39.600 up to him, I think to this day, especially among 1:56:39.760 --> 1:56:46.720 like black media figures, he's, as far as I can remember, 1:56:47.480 --> 1:56:51.280 like one of the only that confronted him in the 1:56:51.400 --> 1:56:55.560 moment boldly didn't mince his words. You could tell he 1:56:55.720 --> 1:57:00.240 was like almost weeping, because I mean that's the way 1:57:00.240 --> 1:57:02.600 I felt watching it, where it was just like oh 1:57:03.240 --> 1:57:05.280 what do you what are you saying? Like it's just 1:57:06.000 --> 1:57:09.840 it's just so hurtful because you're like you can't believe, 1:57:10.000 --> 1:57:13.640 like come on, man, like drop the act, bro, Like 1:57:13.760 --> 1:57:16.240 now now we're all suffering. It's like it's almost like 1:57:16.320 --> 1:57:19.520 I get I get it. We get it looking back, Yeah, 1:57:19.800 --> 1:57:22.960 even college dropout, that record was just him being Now 1:57:23.040 --> 1:57:25.120 I used to think it was like revolutionary. No, it's 1:57:25.160 --> 1:57:27.400 just him being a contrarian. I don't know if you 1:57:27.440 --> 1:57:29.920 go to college, you know now I know, like, oh man, 1:57:30.040 --> 1:57:31.680 it wasn't as deep as I thought it was. You know, 1:57:32.160 --> 1:57:35.400 so you're thinking, yeah, at the moment, you're like genius, 1:57:35.480 --> 1:57:39.200 Like dark Trested Fantasy was like the most amazing album 1:57:39.280 --> 1:57:41.880 I had ever heard up to that point, brilliant, and yeah, 1:57:42.040 --> 1:57:44.920 thats as you guys are talking. There's like sprinkles of 1:57:44.960 --> 1:57:46.840 religious stuff in that one, and then a lot of 1:57:46.880 --> 1:57:49.000 his stuff and he just takes it one stuff too 1:57:49.080 --> 1:57:51.600 far because I just remember thinking like, oh, this guy's 1:57:51.600 --> 1:57:54.720 a musical genius. And then when you see that genius 1:57:54.800 --> 1:57:58.320 kind of turn on itself, it's just really disappointing. But yeah, 1:57:58.360 --> 1:58:01.880 shout out Van for like fronting him and directly saying 1:58:02.640 --> 1:58:05.840 you're wrong. This hurts and I can't believe you say that, 1:58:05.960 --> 1:58:08.480 and you owe your community and apology. That was pretty dopey. 1:58:09.480 --> 1:58:12.800 So after that incident, he took to Twitter dot com 1:58:13.000 --> 1:58:16.839 to clarify, slash, defend, slash, double down on his slavery 1:58:16.880 --> 1:58:20.720 comments talking about being mentally enslaved and how it's we 1:58:20.800 --> 1:58:23.360 need to you know, this is just an example, like 1:58:23.480 --> 1:58:25.960 and how his comments were just an example of of 1:58:26.120 --> 1:58:28.680 free thought. It's just an idea, and once again I'm 1:58:28.680 --> 1:58:31.600 being attacked for presenting new ideas. And then he ended 1:58:31.640 --> 1:58:34.440 this kind of tweet thread with a fake Harriet Tubman 1:58:34.520 --> 1:58:38.880 quote saying I freed a thousand slaves. I could have 1:58:39.000 --> 1:58:41.160 freed a thousand more. Offinitely they knew they were slaves, 1:58:41.160 --> 1:58:44.640 which is not not a real Harriet doubled quote. Now 1:58:44.720 --> 1:58:46.720 that that doesn't seem like a thing she would say 1:58:46.760 --> 1:58:49.680 at all, and all of all the tweets related deleted, 1:58:49.720 --> 1:58:51.440 but it was it was kind of doubling down on 1:58:51.520 --> 1:58:55.040 some of the same rhetoric. And then allegedly, um, some 1:58:55.200 --> 1:58:59.120 of the TMZ staffers have also now come out and 1:58:59.240 --> 1:59:02.440 said that he's said some andy semitic things during during 1:59:02.440 --> 1:59:05.600 the interview that we're cut out. Now that's not verified 1:59:05.640 --> 1:59:09.160 and TMZ is obviously not a great source, um, but 1:59:09.400 --> 1:59:12.640 just an interesting note on him possibly saying some other 1:59:12.720 --> 1:59:14.400 things that people were thought were kind of weird and 1:59:14.440 --> 1:59:15.960 just thought that we may as well just cut this 1:59:16.000 --> 1:59:19.800 out because it doesn't seem super relevant at the time anyway. 1:59:20.240 --> 1:59:24.000 So around the same time in eighteen, Kanye befriended someone 1:59:24.120 --> 1:59:28.160 named Candice Owens, who was at the time the communications 1:59:28.200 --> 1:59:31.520 director for the far right group Turning Point USA, led 1:59:31.600 --> 1:59:34.400 by man with face too small for his head, Charlie 1:59:34.480 --> 1:59:39.520 kirk Um. Kanye tweeted quote that he loved the way 1:59:39.640 --> 1:59:43.960 Candice Owens thinks. Um. Candace Owens basically makes all of 1:59:44.040 --> 1:59:47.240 her money by being paid by rich conservative white men 1:59:47.440 --> 1:59:51.280 to say that racism isn't a problem anymore. Uh. Days 1:59:51.400 --> 1:59:55.400 after his candas owns tweet, when there was the mega 1:59:55.480 --> 1:59:59.440 hat wearing TMZ visit, he was accompanied by to TMZ 1:59:59.800 --> 2:00:03.120 by Candace Owen's. Uh. That's something that a lot of 2:00:03.200 --> 2:00:07.240 people miss is that Owens is Owens is a is 2:00:07.280 --> 2:00:10.000 a core vector point for all of the stuff around 2:00:10.080 --> 2:00:14.080 Kanye UM and much of Kanye's rhetoric in this vein 2:00:14.160 --> 2:00:17.920 of like slavery being thought to control, a lot of 2:00:17.960 --> 2:00:21.360 that directly comes from Owens. That that that's the talking points. 2:00:21.440 --> 2:00:24.880 That Yeah, all of those talking points come directly from 2:00:24.920 --> 2:00:27.520 Owen's which come from her being paid by the Koch brothers. 2:00:28.120 --> 2:00:32.640 UM and then obviously West solidified his position in the 2:00:32.680 --> 2:00:35.480 pro Trump camp with the heavily publicized Whitehouse visit in 2:00:35.600 --> 2:00:38.840 late October eighteen where Kanye give like a ten minute 2:00:38.880 --> 2:00:41.840 long monologue while wearing the Mega hat. And that's fine. 2:00:41.880 --> 2:00:43.960 I love this guy right here. Let me get this guy. 2:00:46.720 --> 2:00:50.520 I love this guy right here. That's really, that's really 2:00:51.520 --> 2:00:53.000 and that's from the heart. I didn't want to put 2:00:53.040 --> 2:00:56.640 you in that position, but that's from the heart. These 2:00:56.680 --> 2:01:00.360 are like the intersections that are being vector in this 2:01:01.600 --> 2:01:04.480 scenario in this thing is like like I said, like 2:01:04.600 --> 2:01:07.680 I didn't, I did not want to cover this, but 2:01:08.440 --> 2:01:11.600 now that it's like it's clearly necessary to do, just 2:01:12.040 --> 2:01:17.360 for even for this context. Like there's a certain I 2:01:17.840 --> 2:01:21.800 I save. I save the word coon, Like coon is 2:01:21.880 --> 2:01:25.000 not something you throw around like that's to me, it's 2:01:25.080 --> 2:01:28.680 the yeah, it is. It's far as far as a 2:01:28.720 --> 2:01:31.560 black person or me as somebody who works in justice 2:01:31.600 --> 2:01:33.200 and stuff like that, it is the worst thing I 2:01:33.240 --> 2:01:35.400 can call you, you know what I'm saying, So like 2:01:35.680 --> 2:01:41.000 I save that term. And and it's because of the 2:01:41.120 --> 2:01:46.680 same reason why it's hard for the totality of our 2:01:46.840 --> 2:01:51.680 of the black community to ever really fully disavow somebody. 2:01:52.320 --> 2:01:55.960 It's because of our history of collective suffering, like are 2:01:56.040 --> 2:01:59.160 we've survived because of our communal protection of each other. 2:01:59.480 --> 2:02:03.200 So even when somebody is losing it, it's just like baby, 2:02:03.280 --> 2:02:05.920 just come home, baby, Okay, listen, No he having a 2:02:05.960 --> 2:02:07.840 bad day, you know. I mean, you just you want 2:02:07.920 --> 2:02:11.320 so much to protect them because you understand how much 2:02:11.400 --> 2:02:15.400 internalized like self hate and racism, how much you internalize 2:02:15.440 --> 2:02:17.920 that stuff, you know, so you just want so bad, 2:02:18.680 --> 2:02:22.240 so bad to be like okay, Candice, let's turn the 2:02:22.320 --> 2:02:25.160 cameras off, like you getting your money, right, that's this, 2:02:25.360 --> 2:02:27.800 this is what we're doing, right, you just come on, 2:02:27.960 --> 2:02:30.680 you can tell us, you just give you getting your money, 2:02:30.760 --> 2:02:33.480 just tell us, you know, it's like you know, no, 2:02:33.680 --> 2:02:35.440 fam you don't really believe it's do you? You know? 2:02:36.120 --> 2:02:38.480 And and then we get to be like baby, don't 2:02:38.520 --> 2:02:40.760 get your money like that, like, don't don't get your 2:02:40.800 --> 2:02:43.640 money on based on our suffering like you because you're 2:02:43.720 --> 2:02:47.600 thinking that there's no there's no way, there's no way 2:02:47.720 --> 2:02:52.280 this is really you, you know, and so so so 2:02:52.400 --> 2:02:55.800 when you put those two together, it's like like why 2:02:55.880 --> 2:02:58.160 did it take us so long to disavow R? Kelly? 2:02:58.280 --> 2:03:00.360 Why did it take us so long to this. Why 2:03:00.480 --> 2:03:02.400 is Chris Brown still a star? You know what I'm saying, 2:03:02.480 --> 2:03:06.040 It's because it's it's because of that. It's just you 2:03:06.080 --> 2:03:09.200 don't ever wanted like you gotta save you gotta save coon. 2:03:09.640 --> 2:03:11.560 You gotta save that for when you really mean it, 2:03:12.000 --> 2:03:15.760 you know what I mean? Uh, for me personally, I'm like, 2:03:15.880 --> 2:03:18.320 I just I don't pull that word out off in 2:03:19.920 --> 2:03:22.200 And then there's moments when you're just like, I don't 2:03:22.240 --> 2:03:25.320 know what else to call it, is like, I just you. 2:03:25.600 --> 2:03:29.000 If you if you are selling your own people out 2:03:30.240 --> 2:03:34.879 for the purpose of making money, that's coon, that's coonery. 2:03:35.160 --> 2:03:38.640 Like I don't and it's it's just hard for me 2:03:38.760 --> 2:03:41.160 to say it. But anyway, go on, tell us more 2:03:41.200 --> 2:03:44.880 about Candice Owns, the girl that suited the girl that 2:03:45.000 --> 2:03:50.600 suited her school suit or school board for racism. She dead, Yeah, 2:03:50.800 --> 2:03:53.240 she sure dead. We'll get back to Owens in a bed. 2:03:53.720 --> 2:03:57.120 By the time nineteen started, uh, you know, this is 2:03:57.160 --> 2:04:00.840 when Kanye went public about his born and in conversion 2:04:00.960 --> 2:04:04.880 to Christianity and kind of his full pivot towards the 2:04:05.560 --> 2:04:09.480 I guess mostly kind of untapped mainstream Christian rap market, 2:04:09.560 --> 2:04:11.480 which is kind of I'm going to try to frame 2:04:11.520 --> 2:04:15.280 some of his decisions here as being more monetarily driven, 2:04:15.680 --> 2:04:18.880 then would a lot of people assume because I can 2:04:19.200 --> 2:04:23.080 totally understand these as business choices, especially coming after the 2:04:23.120 --> 2:04:27.640 Trump visit, his his his state of alignment with Trump 2:04:27.720 --> 2:04:30.960 and friendship with Canadace Owens handed him a partially alieneded 2:04:31.000 --> 2:04:34.160 fan base, accompanied by a new wave of fans from 2:04:34.320 --> 2:04:38.160 right wing Christian evangelicals to all right, you know, turning 2:04:38.200 --> 2:04:42.360 point you was, say, daily wire type supporters. And then 2:04:42.440 --> 2:04:45.760 by the beginning of twenty nineteen, West kind of tamped 2:04:45.800 --> 2:04:50.120 down on some of his explicit Trumpian political persona type stuff, 2:04:50.640 --> 2:04:54.200 and in its place came this weekly pseudo Christian gathering 2:04:54.680 --> 2:04:57.960 known as the Sunday Service, just like a weekly mostly 2:04:58.080 --> 2:05:02.880 invite only, choir packed music gathering that changes locations every week. 2:05:03.320 --> 2:05:07.760 Sometimes that properties owned by Kanye sometimes that churches outdoors 2:05:07.960 --> 2:05:10.800 all all around the country. Yes see. And this is 2:05:11.000 --> 2:05:14.200 this is where things get uncomfortably start to get uncomfortably culty. 2:05:14.480 --> 2:05:17.040 This is where things get quite culty. And it's like 2:05:17.520 --> 2:05:20.160 and and and and and don't get it, like, let 2:05:20.240 --> 2:05:24.120 me not, let me not cap They were objectively dope 2:05:24.680 --> 2:05:29.720 like as as music concerned, these are objective. And that's 2:05:29.920 --> 2:05:34.520 and that's the hard part about Kanye, where it's just like, look, 2:05:34.680 --> 2:05:37.160 you go back, you go back a couple of decades. 2:05:37.360 --> 2:05:41.600 That was not untrue. If people's temple, they had great artists, 2:05:41.680 --> 2:05:43.600 they put on great music. That was a big part 2:05:43.680 --> 2:05:46.800 of their appeal. And and and Kanye for Sunday's Service 2:05:47.040 --> 2:05:49.520 hired a lot of extremely talented people to lead up 2:05:49.560 --> 2:05:52.520 those programs that yeah, a lot of a lot of 2:05:52.840 --> 2:05:57.080 like legendary gospel singers, you know, and very recognizable names. 2:05:57.560 --> 2:06:00.840 And again giving that that his history and context, and 2:06:00.880 --> 2:06:03.880 then the context is just Black people in general. Part 2:06:03.960 --> 2:06:08.120 of it felt like at the time, Okay, he's trying 2:06:08.200 --> 2:06:11.040 to return to his roots. It's like this is what 2:06:11.160 --> 2:06:15.600 you grew up in, and you realized, like maybe you've 2:06:15.640 --> 2:06:18.720 gone too far. Maybe it's like I'm so far into 2:06:18.800 --> 2:06:21.440 this Hollywood world, you know, I'm starting to like So 2:06:21.560 --> 2:06:24.400 I'm like, I'm gonna do my best to like like 2:06:24.480 --> 2:06:26.560 anyone does, like, let me return back to what I 2:06:26.680 --> 2:06:30.000 know was the safest moment in my life, and it 2:06:30.240 --> 2:06:33.240 was Sunday Services. So it's like I gave him the 2:06:33.320 --> 2:06:35.840 benefit I am. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. 2:06:35.920 --> 2:06:38.440 Because it's like, that's what we all do. You return home, 2:06:38.920 --> 2:06:41.520 you start praying again. You know what I'm saying, And 2:06:41.640 --> 2:06:45.120 just would I would totally believe that if it weren't 2:06:45.240 --> 2:06:47.520 for the fact that he tried to trademark the terms 2:06:47.560 --> 2:06:52.880 Sunday Services, right Like, once you start doing that, you're like, huh, 2:06:52.960 --> 2:06:56.200 I wonder what's actually going on a minute. Yeah, Like 2:06:56.360 --> 2:06:58.760 performers and attendees had to sign and D A S 2:06:59.200 --> 2:07:02.920 and here to a strict address code that changed every week. Um. 2:07:03.160 --> 2:07:05.760 The service featured gospel inspired remixes of classic songs from 2:07:05.800 --> 2:07:08.760 different genres, and also strike choir led gospel tunes with 2:07:08.920 --> 2:07:12.880 the occasional biblical servant, often often given by like a 2:07:12.960 --> 2:07:18.120 white guy in his thirties or sometimes Kanye Yeah, it's it's. 2:07:18.200 --> 2:07:22.520 It's probably mostly known for attracting celebrities to come and 2:07:22.600 --> 2:07:26.240 then also playing at Coachella in t Yeah, well there's 2:07:26.280 --> 2:07:30.360 nothing wrong with Coachella, so yeah nothing nothing ever bad's 2:07:30.360 --> 2:07:35.879 half of that Coachella there, and they're just normal booking 2:07:36.040 --> 2:07:40.080 promoters that are just looking at numbers and saying these 2:07:40.160 --> 2:07:44.320 people will buy tickets. So I know I showed this 2:07:44.440 --> 2:07:49.480 to you, Garrison prop have you ever seen the movie, Um, Marjo, No, 2:07:49.640 --> 2:07:53.080 I have not. There's a couple of it's about the 2:07:53.200 --> 2:07:57.840 evangelical movement right at the start of the religious right, okay, 2:07:58.080 --> 2:08:00.640 the Fallwell Days and everything, And there's a couple of 2:08:00.760 --> 2:08:06.000 moments that show an early megachurch with a majority black 2:08:06.080 --> 2:08:10.280 congregation and incredible singers and incredible music acts and then 2:08:10.680 --> 2:08:13.960 a bunch of like old white people running things and 2:08:14.040 --> 2:08:18.040 taking all the money. Um, I don't know, Yeah, it 2:08:18.120 --> 2:08:22.080 makes me think about that. I don't know entirely. The 2:08:22.480 --> 2:08:24.680 and the thing is like, like I said, you know, uh, 2:08:26.280 --> 2:08:29.720 obviously as a fan of the show, you know I'm familiar, 2:08:30.000 --> 2:08:32.640 you know, getting same with your your history and even 2:08:32.720 --> 2:08:37.280 you describing your history of church is just like that's 2:08:37.320 --> 2:08:39.640 just not my experience, Like that wasn't the church we 2:08:39.720 --> 2:08:41.520 were in, because I was just in a whole different tradition. 2:08:42.800 --> 2:08:46.880 So when you when you come across and I like, 2:08:47.000 --> 2:08:50.880 I can't stress this enough, when you come across you know, 2:08:51.080 --> 2:08:53.720 the Nashville of it all, the like the CCM of 2:08:53.800 --> 2:08:57.360 it all, like in in and these bigger, you know, suburban, 2:08:57.520 --> 2:09:03.480 mega white churches like you again you think you're saying 2:09:03.560 --> 2:09:06.800 the same thing, like you you just it's this weird 2:09:07.240 --> 2:09:10.200 like and I know one of the things for me 2:09:10.440 --> 2:09:14.800 was like and then Oscar Grant happened, you know what 2:09:14.800 --> 2:09:16.880 I mean. And then Mike Brown happened, and then I'm 2:09:16.920 --> 2:09:19.520 like and then you realize like, oh yeah, no, we're not, 2:09:20.600 --> 2:09:22.880 We're not. And then that begins. Then you start questioning 2:09:22.920 --> 2:09:25.360 your all background, like dude, well like well what did 2:09:25.440 --> 2:09:27.120 we believe? And we was kids, you know what I'm saying. 2:09:27.400 --> 2:09:30.360 And then looking at the Sunday looking at this Sunday service, 2:09:30.440 --> 2:09:34.440 I was like, yo, this is this is youth group. 2:09:34.960 --> 2:09:37.240 That's we did a youth group. You just you know, 2:09:37.840 --> 2:09:40.680 you get a good singer and they remix a Jodacye 2:09:40.720 --> 2:09:44.000 song and just praise in it. You know what I'm saying. 2:09:44.040 --> 2:09:47.120 I'm like, oh, this is You're just singing up a 2:09:47.480 --> 2:09:50.680 pop song and you're just giving it Christian words. This 2:09:50.880 --> 2:09:54.920 isn't clever, Like you know, we've we've been doing this, 2:09:55.720 --> 2:09:58.400 you know. And and but then like like yeah, like 2:09:59.320 --> 2:10:02.040 the same thing like once you exit that like you 2:10:02.160 --> 2:10:04.360 know that subculture and you start like breathing the air 2:10:04.440 --> 2:10:06.720 and you're just like, oh, so you so you're telling 2:10:06.760 --> 2:10:08.920 me Muslims don't have horns and aren't you know what 2:10:08.960 --> 2:10:10.840 I'm saying, going to immediately going to, well, it's not 2:10:11.080 --> 2:10:15.160 like that. It turns out there just wonderful human beings 2:10:15.280 --> 2:10:18.280 that believe beautiful things. Then you start looking back and 2:10:18.320 --> 2:10:20.560 you're going, damn, maybe I was kind of maybe I 2:10:20.640 --> 2:10:23.680 did kind of drink that cool aid, you know. But yeah, 2:10:23.960 --> 2:10:26.320 and we're talking about, you know, when we're talking about 2:10:26.360 --> 2:10:29.600 how kind of the white suburban church can be sometimes 2:10:29.640 --> 2:10:31.360 saying the same words but also be very different. We'll 2:10:31.360 --> 2:10:34.360 be talking about Joel Osteen in a little bit. Oh yes, 2:10:34.680 --> 2:10:38.880 oh yes, yes, the smile and prata like I'm telling 2:10:38.920 --> 2:10:41.120 you dig like you just you just and then yeah, 2:10:41.240 --> 2:10:44.000 once you once, once the veil comes off and you 2:10:44.160 --> 2:10:47.240 realize like the way these people are talking to you. 2:10:48.160 --> 2:10:51.400 And for me, it was like, oh shit, you use 2:10:51.600 --> 2:10:55.720 the same the same words you're using about my experience, 2:10:56.080 --> 2:10:59.240 you're using about the queer community, I'm using about the 2:10:59.240 --> 2:11:03.480 trans community. And then you start going, oh ship, oh okay, 2:11:03.560 --> 2:11:05.640 oh it's on now you know what I'm saying. Now 2:11:05.760 --> 2:11:08.440 you're like, okay, nah, I'm cool on all this. Let 2:11:08.480 --> 2:11:11.800 me let me go, let me go to Ethiopia, you know, 2:11:12.200 --> 2:11:14.200 just let me see what y'all think about this, you know. 2:11:14.440 --> 2:11:18.720 But yeah, any anyway, yeah, that that that that aspect 2:11:19.160 --> 2:11:22.120 and then I mean, I'm I'm I'm rambling because it's 2:11:22.120 --> 2:11:24.400 such it's so close to home. This Kanye said, is 2:11:24.440 --> 2:11:29.440 so close to home that like, you're like, because I 2:11:29.560 --> 2:11:32.040 can see how you'd fall for it. It's what I'm 2:11:32.040 --> 2:11:34.240 trying to say. I can see how he'd fall for it, 2:11:34.440 --> 2:11:37.560 you know, kind of at the height of his Sunday 2:11:37.600 --> 2:11:40.880 Service stuff in twenty nine is when Kanye started openly 2:11:40.960 --> 2:11:45.320 talking about his born again conversion to Christianity. I'm gonna, 2:11:45.480 --> 2:11:50.200 I'm gonna, I'm gonna quote a Fox News article quote, Yeah, 2:11:50.360 --> 2:11:54.600 you must be born again. Kanye West and Kim Kardashian 2:11:54.960 --> 2:11:57.960 shared their Christian faith in a big way over this weekend. 2:11:58.560 --> 2:12:02.000 Adam Tyson, a pastor from the southern California, told Fox 2:12:02.120 --> 2:12:05.360 News recently that he's been leading West in a Bible 2:12:05.440 --> 2:12:09.000 study for months now and would quote teach from God's 2:12:09.040 --> 2:12:11.920 Word about how salvation is only by grace alone, through 2:12:11.960 --> 2:12:17.640 faith alone, in Christ alone. Great cutting edge journalism. I 2:12:17.720 --> 2:12:22.400 also reformed Calvinist talk. Yeah, it is always interesting and 2:12:22.480 --> 2:12:25.520 I guess meaningless because they don't have to be consistent. 2:12:25.640 --> 2:12:28.440 But I can remember when Kanye said what he said 2:12:28.440 --> 2:12:31.280 about George Bush after Katrina and the degree to which 2:12:31.520 --> 2:12:35.120 Fox News treated him like a fucking ghoul, like like 2:12:35.240 --> 2:12:39.600 the incarnation. Some of the cruelest and most racist ship 2:12:39.720 --> 2:12:42.920 I ever saw on Fox News was focused around that. 2:12:43.360 --> 2:12:45.560 But no, now he's now he's publicly praying, so like 2:12:45.640 --> 2:12:47.520 he's back on our side. We're all good. You know? 2:12:47.720 --> 2:12:50.880 That was that clip was It was around the time 2:12:50.920 --> 2:12:54.480 of like ring tones. It was my ring tone. I'm 2:12:54.480 --> 2:12:56.720 saying George Bush doesn't care about black people. That was 2:12:56.760 --> 2:12:59.840 my ring tone. One of those things. Fucking somebody needed 2:12:59.880 --> 2:13:02.120 to say it. Somebody needed to say it. Somebody needed 2:13:02.160 --> 2:13:05.160 to say it. Yo. And then when you see like 2:13:05.520 --> 2:13:08.240 out of y'all remember this, but George George Bush did 2:13:08.280 --> 2:13:11.600 a post like presidential interview and they asked him like, 2:13:12.080 --> 2:13:16.000 what was your like lowest point in when your president? 2:13:16.120 --> 2:13:18.160 He was like when Kanye said I didn't care about 2:13:18.200 --> 2:13:23.000 black people, Like not the multiple invasions, not the two 2:13:23.160 --> 2:13:26.320 times you invaded foreign country, none of that, none of 2:13:26.360 --> 2:13:31.560 a war crimes, none of that cool. When you said 2:13:31.600 --> 2:13:34.160 you won't care about black people, that is I I 2:13:34.280 --> 2:13:37.240 gotta say though, that's also kind of because I remember 2:13:37.480 --> 2:13:40.240 when he said that how happy everybody was, just because 2:13:40.280 --> 2:13:42.840 it was nice to see George Bush sad. But it's 2:13:42.840 --> 2:13:47.720 also kind of another harbinger of well, that's maybe too 2:13:47.840 --> 2:13:51.760 much cultural power for one man should have all that 2:13:54.640 --> 2:14:00.760 we got there. Yeah, because definitely added inside knew how 2:14:00.800 --> 2:14:05.040 to make guess it definitely added to Kanye's cash because 2:14:05.040 --> 2:14:08.920 it was like, bro, you you did it. You took 2:14:08.960 --> 2:14:12.400 down a president. Yeah, you know the last rapper town 2:14:12.440 --> 2:14:15.520 the president. Yes, the last rapper to take down the 2:14:15.560 --> 2:14:19.080 president was easy and iced tea, like it took a 2:14:19.200 --> 2:14:22.800 long time before we could get somebody lay easy. We're 2:14:22.840 --> 2:14:24.720 talking about you know, the Jerry Curl juice dripping on 2:14:24.800 --> 2:14:27.840 the White House like that's that's eat, that's easy, you 2:14:27.880 --> 2:14:30.400 know what I mean. And then you know with body 2:14:30.520 --> 2:14:32.640 counting cop killer from iced tea, like that was the 2:14:32.720 --> 2:14:35.120 last time anybody was able to take out a president, 2:14:35.960 --> 2:14:38.480 you know. So I'm like, you didn't you and the 2:14:38.560 --> 2:14:42.040 annals a history now, fam that's what we thought at least. Yeah, 2:14:42.720 --> 2:14:44.880 So I think I think stuff like that made him think. 2:14:44.960 --> 2:14:49.040 He's like he transcended blackness the same way thinks he has. 2:14:49.120 --> 2:14:52.320 You know what I mean. I think that mentality plays, 2:14:52.400 --> 2:14:54.720 in my opinion, a lot into the Messiah complex that 2:14:54.840 --> 2:15:01.080 he clearly has. Yeah. After the Kim kar Ashian baptism 2:15:01.640 --> 2:15:06.000 and the Adam Tyson Bible study groups, Kanye started talking 2:15:06.120 --> 2:15:09.920 much more openly about the like the evangelical style born 2:15:09.960 --> 2:15:13.120 again conversion that he had in t While at the 2:15:13.160 --> 2:15:15.760 biggest mega church in the country based out of Houston, Texas, 2:15:16.320 --> 2:15:19.720 Kanye talked about his recent conversion to Christianity to the 2:15:19.800 --> 2:15:23.600 sixteen thousand people president at the churches regular Sunday service, 2:15:24.080 --> 2:15:26.960 Kanye declared that he no longer cares for fame and money, 2:15:27.080 --> 2:15:29.840 but it's only in the service of God. And in 2:15:30.000 --> 2:15:33.400 conversation with the celebrity pastor Joel Osteen at the church, 2:15:34.000 --> 2:15:38.120 Kanye said, quote, the only superstar is Jesus, and I 2:15:38.280 --> 2:15:40.720 know that God has been calling me for a long 2:15:40.840 --> 2:15:43.320 time and the devil has been distracting me for the 2:15:43.400 --> 2:15:47.160 long time. Here's a pro tip. The only time you'll 2:15:47.160 --> 2:15:49.640 ever hear someone say I no longer care for money, 2:15:49.800 --> 2:15:53.080 it's because their riches God right as they have enough 2:15:53.160 --> 2:15:56.240 of it. Yes, you have more than you could spend 2:15:56.840 --> 2:16:00.440 in a in a radio interview, Kanye into into detail 2:16:00.480 --> 2:16:04.160 about his conversion, saying that he began reading the Bible 2:16:04.280 --> 2:16:08.120 during his hospitalization for mental health issues and started a 2:16:08.200 --> 2:16:16.040 quote writing and copying out Bible versus which is not Listen, y'all. 2:16:16.200 --> 2:16:19.080 Like I don't want to be just like blatantly anti Bible, 2:16:19.160 --> 2:16:21.880 but if you're in the hospital for mental issues, they 2:16:22.160 --> 2:16:25.440 should let people they should not let you access any 2:16:25.560 --> 2:16:29.000 religious text at all, like any any religious text. This 2:16:29.320 --> 2:16:35.320 is but like, like this whole the story is it 2:16:35.520 --> 2:16:40.360 is standard inner city church talk, like this is par 2:16:40.560 --> 2:16:45.040 for the course. You're like, look, dude, you know, you 2:16:45.120 --> 2:16:47.000 go up and you give you give your testimony and 2:16:47.080 --> 2:16:50.160 testimony service. You know, I was listen, I was outside, 2:16:50.200 --> 2:16:52.160 I was doing all the gangs. I was with all 2:16:52.200 --> 2:16:55.080 the girls. And then one day I was high, you know, 2:16:55.120 --> 2:16:56.880 I was in nine gangs and I was and I 2:16:57.000 --> 2:16:59.360 was at a four day binger and I just looked 2:16:59.440 --> 2:17:00.840 up and I said, God, if you could get me 2:17:00.920 --> 2:17:02.600 out of this, you know. And then over in the 2:17:02.720 --> 2:17:09.160 corner I saw Bible like it's it's standard, you know. Yeah, yeah, 2:17:10.200 --> 2:17:14.200 it's there's so much about it that standard. Also, just 2:17:14.320 --> 2:17:17.360 to Evangela again, I brought up the whole. I no 2:17:17.480 --> 2:17:19.680 longer care about money. But every one of these rich 2:17:19.760 --> 2:17:23.279 megachurch pastors who is making hundreds of millions of dollars 2:17:23.320 --> 2:17:25.440 a year will have speeches where they're like, I don't 2:17:25.480 --> 2:17:27.320 care the money means nothing to me. It's all for 2:17:27.480 --> 2:17:30.680 God everything, like is the only real star up here? 2:17:31.280 --> 2:17:36.040 Like it's it's it's all very again if you're I 2:17:36.120 --> 2:17:39.439 think this hit people like a brick who aren't familiar 2:17:39.920 --> 2:17:44.560 having had experienced, particularly like strains of Southern Christianity. Yeah, 2:17:44.760 --> 2:17:47.640 but the way Kanye has been talking makes a lot 2:17:47.720 --> 2:17:50.400 of sense. But it's also I think that chunk of 2:17:50.480 --> 2:17:54.680 people were all flumeexed by the black Israelism stuff, which 2:17:54.680 --> 2:18:00.320 I'm guessing we're gonna talk. Yeah, that that's more North Beast. 2:18:00.440 --> 2:18:04.080 And yes, that the Hebrews were like stuff. All right, 2:18:04.160 --> 2:18:09.680 let's go, so stay there A lot of thoughts. So 2:18:09.920 --> 2:18:12.440 around this time in nineteen is when Kanye announced that 2:18:12.440 --> 2:18:15.160 he's no longer making secular music, which is a term 2:18:15.200 --> 2:18:22.240 I heard a lot as a kid music music Absolutely not, no, 2:18:23.000 --> 2:18:27.640 no way, that's worldly, man worldly. When the last time 2:18:27.680 --> 2:18:32.360 I heard the phrase worldly, Yes, yeah's worldly. I'm in 2:18:32.440 --> 2:18:38.840 the world. That's right, that's right. So this led to 2:18:38.959 --> 2:18:43.160 his late twenty nineteen album Jesus Is King. It's objectively 2:18:43.240 --> 2:18:47.440 it's a good alfl um it is, but it's also 2:18:47.640 --> 2:18:51.920 borderline Christian dominionist in some themes. Um. The very first 2:18:51.959 --> 2:18:54.039 words in the album are God is King, we are 2:18:54.120 --> 2:18:57.520 the Soldiers um, And that song ends with the Army 2:18:57.600 --> 2:19:00.560 of God and we are the Truth um. So you 2:19:00.600 --> 2:19:03.600 know that that goes into the entire ideas about like 2:19:03.600 --> 2:19:07.040 the Kingdom of God where the soldiers. So in this idea, 2:19:07.120 --> 2:19:11.199 there's there's like there's this battle between the antagonism against 2:19:11.360 --> 2:19:14.480 the godly community from the forces of spiritual darkness, and 2:19:14.879 --> 2:19:18.879 you know, shout out and woo woo's in there. There's 2:19:18.959 --> 2:19:22.200 for every Christian rapper of the world who had this 2:19:22.280 --> 2:19:26.600 guy make one one record and then cover everybody's charts, 2:19:26.920 --> 2:19:28.720 so now no one cares about your how you've been 2:19:28.760 --> 2:19:32.320 serving at these like you know camp Canna cooks, you know, 2:19:33.120 --> 2:19:35.640 rap it in these twelve year old white kids and 2:19:35.879 --> 2:19:37.879 trying to get your trying to get your albums out, 2:19:38.040 --> 2:19:42.800 and then this will Kanye just cleans up your whole genre. 2:19:43.640 --> 2:19:47.400 He had the pretty funny song, in my opinion, closed 2:19:47.440 --> 2:19:50.119 on Sunday. You might check fil A, which I think 2:19:50.240 --> 2:19:54.720 is funny. Now that is that's actually pretty good. But 2:19:54.879 --> 2:19:58.720 the man is talented. No one's arguing about it's also 2:19:58.840 --> 2:20:02.039 probably sincere because saw it ends with Jesus, listen and obey. 2:20:02.200 --> 2:20:05.640 So like it's you know, um no, it's it's it's 2:20:05.680 --> 2:20:08.800 a it's it's funny. It's funny that it is. There's 2:20:08.840 --> 2:20:11.040 this there's this like with hip hop, you know, as 2:20:11.120 --> 2:20:15.279 a rapper, there's this like fine line between clever bars 2:20:15.480 --> 2:20:19.240 and dad jokes like that it's you you you gotta 2:20:19.320 --> 2:20:21.200 teeter on that. And I was like, yo, you are 2:20:21.480 --> 2:20:26.760 dancing on that on that border with this one, you know. So, 2:20:27.360 --> 2:20:32.000 Evangelicals kind of embraced Kanye in this period. Some were 2:20:32.040 --> 2:20:36.160 obviously skeptical based on him being a black person and 2:20:36.520 --> 2:20:39.760 his in his general past, but overall a lot a 2:20:39.800 --> 2:20:42.360 lot of people were happy to have kind of to 2:20:42.640 --> 2:20:47.360 use him as a token figure almost um Kanye in 2:20:47.720 --> 2:20:50.800 in a In a Guardian piece titled Kanye West is 2:20:50.800 --> 2:20:56.200 spreading the Gospel of white evangelicals, Malika Habali writes, quote, 2:20:56.560 --> 2:21:00.280 like other black conservatives, the rapper and designer down plays 2:21:00.360 --> 2:21:05.400 racism while promoting bootstrap virtue signaling while signifying black cultural 2:21:05.480 --> 2:21:08.240 and religious traditions. His album is peppered with samples of 2:21:08.360 --> 2:21:13.120 Black church staples like James Cleveland's God Is West advances 2:21:13.360 --> 2:21:17.760 the gospel of white evangelicals. Although he has challenged conventions 2:21:17.800 --> 2:21:21.200 in nearly every aspect of his artistic life, Kanye West 2:21:21.400 --> 2:21:25.280 has been born again as a conservative, and that that 2:21:25.360 --> 2:21:27.600 whole article is a really good piece kind of going 2:21:27.640 --> 2:21:31.600 into how how specifically he's the type of thing he's 2:21:31.640 --> 2:21:35.240 engaging with is distinct from like the Black church tradition, 2:21:35.600 --> 2:21:40.200 and it's just like Joel Osteen shiit alut and then 2:21:40.200 --> 2:21:43.400 the hill all exactly exactly do you cover Hill? Are 2:21:43.400 --> 2:21:45.440 we gonna talk about Hill Song at all? I don't 2:21:45.480 --> 2:21:47.480 have anything of Hill Song in this script. The script 2:21:47.560 --> 2:21:49.200 is already too long. It might it might need to 2:21:49.240 --> 2:21:51.960 be a two parter at this point. Will probably do 2:21:52.280 --> 2:21:55.720 Hill Song on bTB at some point. Hill Song was 2:21:55.760 --> 2:21:58.680 a big part of my childhood. Yea is a big 2:21:58.840 --> 2:22:04.640 part of the whole fascism. It's yeah, I really feel 2:22:04.720 --> 2:22:10.720 like I really feel like just as just secular, just 2:22:10.959 --> 2:22:14.800 just the idea of just like secular, like academia. Anybody 2:22:14.840 --> 2:22:19.440 who studies culture. I feel like the effects of something 2:22:19.560 --> 2:22:22.400 like a hill song is always siloed into this like 2:22:23.120 --> 2:22:24.800 study of religion, you know what I mean, This is 2:22:24.879 --> 2:22:32.560 just this state, but like really the cultural societal impact 2:22:32.840 --> 2:22:36.840 global like of something like a hill song stretches so 2:22:37.280 --> 2:22:41.680 far past just a theological or religious thing. I think. 2:22:41.680 --> 2:22:45.320 I don't think people really understand like the influence something 2:22:45.400 --> 2:22:47.360 like a hill song would have. And just like any 2:22:47.440 --> 2:22:50.200 other thing, it's like, you know, a sward in there, 2:22:50.560 --> 2:22:52.680 mess cool people there, you know what I'm saying, go 2:22:53.680 --> 2:22:55.160 on me, you know what I mean. There's some stuff 2:22:55.160 --> 2:22:56.840 that I was just like, all right, yeah, y'all weird 2:22:56.879 --> 2:23:03.560 those but you know, but generally it's like I mean, yeah, 2:23:03.680 --> 2:23:05.920 like you just be DMX went to Hillsong, New York, 2:23:06.000 --> 2:23:09.400 you know what I'm saying. Like, so this the type 2:23:09.600 --> 2:23:17.600 of influence over so much of the even just pop music. 2:23:17.720 --> 2:23:21.160 It's like you'll understand like like top you know, number 2:23:21.160 --> 2:23:23.640 of Top forty pop songs were actually written by their 2:23:23.720 --> 2:23:26.440 worship band, like just stuff like that. Like that, the 2:23:26.640 --> 2:23:29.560 effects of something like a hill song, I feel like, 2:23:29.720 --> 2:23:35.400 is grossly under under reported and underrated. Another interesting note 2:23:35.600 --> 2:23:40.320 um the University of Virginia professor Ashton Crawley wrote for 2:23:40.440 --> 2:23:43.560 NPR and saying, quote, Kanye West has used the concept 2:23:43.640 --> 2:23:48.039 of salvation to disallow thoughtful engagement with his politics because 2:23:48.040 --> 2:23:50.959 I think it's an interesting sidebar to kind of everything 2:23:51.000 --> 2:23:55.160 we've talked about, especially with his with his more evangelical 2:23:55.200 --> 2:23:59.039 stuff coming directly after his Trump stuff. UM. Now, obviously 2:23:59.120 --> 2:24:01.200 I don't know what's going on inside Kanye's head, nor 2:24:01.240 --> 2:24:04.000 can I judge his sincerity of faith, but I can 2:24:04.120 --> 2:24:07.800 certainly see the business aspect of brownding yourself as basically 2:24:07.879 --> 2:24:13.040 the first like extremely mainstream Christian rap artist in twenty nineteen, 2:24:13.080 --> 2:24:15.480 I can totally I can see from a business perspective 2:24:16.040 --> 2:24:19.240 what happened in with his politics. I can I can 2:24:19.320 --> 2:24:23.000 see how this may have been a gamble that he took. 2:24:23.720 --> 2:24:28.480 Um so throughout after his Sunday service can of era, 2:24:29.160 --> 2:24:33.280 Kanye was kind of running for president, but like not really. 2:24:33.840 --> 2:24:37.560 It mostly seems to be a publicity thing. Um. His 2:24:37.720 --> 2:24:40.520 campaign obviously did not result in him becoming naming president, 2:24:40.920 --> 2:24:42.960 but it did result in his wife divorcing him in 2:24:43.080 --> 2:24:47.160 favor of Pete Davidson. Uh. The most notable aspect of 2:24:47.280 --> 2:24:50.640 his campaign is in July, at a rally in North Charleston, 2:24:50.800 --> 2:24:53.360 South Carolina, Kanye broke down into here is as he 2:24:53.640 --> 2:24:55.920 as he claimed that him and his wife had discussed 2:24:55.959 --> 2:25:01.240 aboarding their first child. UM. This allegedly at his wife 2:25:01.440 --> 2:25:05.960 mortified and quote deeply worried over Kanye's mental state, which 2:25:06.160 --> 2:25:10.720 eventually led to their divorce. Kanye continued and continues to 2:25:10.760 --> 2:25:13.920 focus on abortion. UM, but he continued to talk about 2:25:13.920 --> 2:25:18.120 that throughout his quote unquote campaign and in interviews. UM. 2:25:18.280 --> 2:25:21.440 Later that September, he said that God revealed to him, 2:25:21.560 --> 2:25:26.520 quote the black genocide that is abortion. Um. God revealed 2:25:26.600 --> 2:25:30.279 that to him. Is this the same line? Yeah, I'll 2:25:30.320 --> 2:25:32.280 say this. I don't have a lot of nice things 2:25:32.560 --> 2:25:35.840 or a lot to say at all about Kim Kardashian, 2:25:36.080 --> 2:25:38.840 But one of the first thing I thought back when 2:25:38.879 --> 2:25:43.640 he got institutionalized during his mental health outbreak is like, oh, 2:25:43.720 --> 2:25:46.480 people actually care about him, Like he actually has people 2:25:46.480 --> 2:25:48.120 in his life who love him and are making him 2:25:48.160 --> 2:25:51.600 seek help. UM, which a lot of very famous people 2:25:51.680 --> 2:25:56.400 who have you know, psychotic episodes and stuff don't don't 2:25:56.480 --> 2:25:58.760 have that. Right. No one around them is willing to 2:25:58.800 --> 2:26:01.720 be critical enough to be like, you need help, right, now, yeah, 2:26:02.320 --> 2:26:06.000 it does seem like she really tried to help. Yeah, 2:26:06.040 --> 2:26:09.040 it's crazy to think that, like like on you on 2:26:09.200 --> 2:26:13.760 our like bingo card, that the adult in the room 2:26:14.560 --> 2:26:18.760 was going to be Kim Kardashian. Yeah, he would have 2:26:18.840 --> 2:26:22.160 not predicted that, you know her, her actions in the 2:26:22.320 --> 2:26:27.720 marriage make sense to me. Yeah. So with all of 2:26:27.879 --> 2:26:31.120 that context, this finally leads us to our main topic 2:26:31.200 --> 2:26:35.800 of discussion. We haven't got there yet. Recent actions cove 2:26:35.800 --> 2:26:38.200 and s leaked to white supremacy and anti Semitism. So 2:26:39.080 --> 2:26:42.880 this most recent circus started at the beginning of October 2:26:43.120 --> 2:26:47.360 during Paris Fashion Week, where Kanye literally hand in hand 2:26:47.560 --> 2:26:51.360 with far right media personality kendas Owen's debuted his new 2:26:51.520 --> 2:26:54.400 line of T shirts while wearing a long sleeve that 2:26:54.560 --> 2:26:59.240 read White Lives Matter. Now this is this The slogan 2:26:59.360 --> 2:27:03.720 is obviously response to blm UM, but the more formal 2:27:04.000 --> 2:27:08.040 like White Lives Matter movement is is like an explicitly 2:27:08.120 --> 2:27:11.359 neo Nazi group tied to the area in resistance society, 2:27:11.800 --> 2:27:14.720 the National Socialist movement and the loyal white nights of 2:27:14.760 --> 2:27:18.520 the Ku Klux Kan. So it's like the the actual 2:27:18.560 --> 2:27:22.560 group is explicitly like Nazis, but obviously the slogan is 2:27:22.640 --> 2:27:25.520 not it's easy to coup with the slogan white Lives matter, 2:27:25.640 --> 2:27:28.040 Like it's not like that's not like where did he 2:27:28.160 --> 2:27:33.280 get that from? Like? Come on? So Kanye's promotion of 2:27:33.360 --> 2:27:38.080 the slogan was obviously celebrated by many neo fascist online celebrities. 2:27:38.440 --> 2:27:42.840 Nick Fuentez of America first forwarded the post, saying that 2:27:43.000 --> 2:27:47.080 quote anti white racism and white Lives matter are now mainstream. 2:27:47.440 --> 2:27:51.760 This is an unambiguous win. Um and then A. Tucker 2:27:51.959 --> 2:27:54.400 was very quick to do a segment on his show 2:27:54.480 --> 2:27:57.480 where he wondered what the T shirt was really about. 2:27:59.040 --> 2:28:02.360 Days ago, during Action Week in Paris, West, accompanied by 2:28:02.400 --> 2:28:05.600 his friend Candice Owens, unveiled a T shirt that read 2:28:05.680 --> 2:28:09.680 simply white Lives Matter. The response from the fashion industry 2:28:09.720 --> 2:28:15.320 in international media was instantaneous and uniform shock, horror rage. 2:28:15.720 --> 2:28:18.600 There was no excuse for this, thundered The New York Times. 2:28:18.879 --> 2:28:24.280 West is legitimizing extremism, shrieked Rolling Stone, etcetera, etcetera. What 2:28:24.440 --> 2:28:27.160 was strikingly missing from the coverage, whoever, was any explanation 2:28:27.280 --> 2:28:30.400 for why West did this? What was the T shirt about? 2:28:31.120 --> 2:28:33.040 No one seemed to think to ask him, much less 2:28:33.080 --> 2:28:35.720 to listen to what he had to say. Instead, the 2:28:35.840 --> 2:28:39.240 enemies of his ideas dismissed West, as they have for years, 2:28:39.440 --> 2:28:42.840 as mentally ill, too crazy to take seriously. Look away, 2:28:42.959 --> 2:28:46.120 ignore him. He's a mental patient. There's nothing to see here. 2:28:46.560 --> 2:28:49.000 I don't know who's who's to say, who who's to say? 2:28:49.080 --> 2:28:52.000 Really surprised all the all Lives Matter people weren't in 2:28:52.120 --> 2:28:59.680 such an uproar about that. Yeah. The next Monday, Kanye 2:28:59.760 --> 2:29:03.400 wrote on Instagram, quote everyone knows that Black Lives Matter 2:29:03.680 --> 2:29:09.480 was a scam. Now it's over your welcome unquote. This 2:29:09.720 --> 2:29:12.359 is this is this is right. This is like direct 2:29:12.520 --> 2:29:15.680 Candace Owen's ship in a way that will explain later. 2:29:16.560 --> 2:29:20.760 Um but so, a few days after Kanye and models 2:29:20.840 --> 2:29:24.000 for his new uh Easy lineup don the White Lives 2:29:24.040 --> 2:29:27.160 Matter t shirts at Paris Fashion Week, he himself made 2:29:27.240 --> 2:29:31.200 an appearance, um to quote Rolling Stone on the show 2:29:31.320 --> 2:29:35.960 Where White Lives Matter the Most, Tucker Carlson's Fox News show, 2:29:36.080 --> 2:29:41.800 Tuck Across It Tonight. Honestly, solid, solid turn of phrase. Yeah, 2:29:41.840 --> 2:29:45.760 that's that's a good way to write that. Good. Thank 2:29:45.959 --> 2:29:49.160 thank you, comrade rolling Stone. So you made reference to 2:29:49.200 --> 2:29:51.800 the white Lives Matter T shirt she brought out at 2:29:52.200 --> 2:29:55.080 Paris Fashion Week. Why did you do that? And what 2:29:55.200 --> 2:30:01.720 did it mean? You know, I did I do certain 2:30:01.760 --> 2:30:04.280 things from a feeling. I like, I just I just 2:30:04.480 --> 2:30:10.560 channeled the energy. It just feels right. It's using a 2:30:10.680 --> 2:30:16.440 gut instinct, a connection with God and just brilliance. You know, 2:30:16.600 --> 2:30:21.440 because if you ask, like Tanya Harding how she did 2:30:21.520 --> 2:30:24.960 the triple flip or the triple spin, she was in 2:30:25.080 --> 2:30:27.680 so much practice that when it was time for her 2:30:27.800 --> 2:30:33.640 to skate in a in a competitive format, it just happened. 2:30:33.760 --> 2:30:35.680 Like it happened outside of practice, that happened in the 2:30:35.760 --> 2:30:39.400 real format. And that's what happened. That's what's happening. Is 2:30:39.520 --> 2:30:42.640 God is like preparing us for the real for the 2:30:42.720 --> 2:30:45.520 real battles, and we are we are in a battle 2:30:45.720 --> 2:30:49.160 with the media, like the majority of the media has 2:30:49.800 --> 2:30:56.720 a godless agenda. Oh that's a brilliant so uh. In 2:30:56.760 --> 2:30:58.560 the cliff, he talks about this idea coming to him 2:30:58.560 --> 2:31:02.760 as like a feeling. Um. This is basically the same 2:31:02.800 --> 2:31:06.000 explanation that he gave for wearing the Mega hat. It's 2:31:06.040 --> 2:31:11.240 like a spontaneous gut instinct or feeling. The spontaneous decision 2:31:12.920 --> 2:31:15.640 to make model and sell over priced printed T shirts 2:31:16.800 --> 2:31:19.800 that about like wearing a kilt. I remember for one 2:31:19.840 --> 2:31:22.360 of the records, he said he had that feeling over 2:31:22.480 --> 2:31:24.199 that he was going to do it in Chicago because 2:31:24.240 --> 2:31:26.959 he wanted to set young black man free. So he's 2:31:27.000 --> 2:31:30.480 gonna wear a kilt. Uh. He also said when he 2:31:30.600 --> 2:31:32.520 was going to run for president that it just happened 2:31:32.520 --> 2:31:34.960 in the shower and he just started laughing and he 2:31:35.040 --> 2:31:37.360 was like, I'm gonnaround for president. I'm gonna be the president. 2:31:37.959 --> 2:31:41.920 I don't like not believe him that these exact like 2:31:42.160 --> 2:31:46.280 come this way like exactly, Like, yeah, that probably, but 2:31:46.400 --> 2:31:49.080 it's it's funny to frame the decision to like do 2:31:49.280 --> 2:31:52.480 these very planned out things as just a single, like 2:31:52.920 --> 2:31:56.760 gut gut moment of spontaneous instinct, because making and producing 2:31:56.800 --> 2:31:59.320 T shirts takes like it's like a process. And he 2:31:59.440 --> 2:32:01.920 talked about as if he decided to do this like 2:32:02.080 --> 2:32:05.480 right before going on stage at Paris Fashion Week, which like, no, 2:32:05.680 --> 2:32:08.360 like this was like a decision that you made and 2:32:08.520 --> 2:32:13.080 you then took steps to execute um. So in then 2:32:13.120 --> 2:32:16.120 in that section of the interview, Kanye did go on 2:32:16.560 --> 2:32:19.680 to dismiss the assertion that his behavior is a result 2:32:19.800 --> 2:32:23.039 of any mental health issues. Um. Then, in a segment 2:32:23.160 --> 2:32:26.760 talking about Lizzo and body positivity, Tucker and Kanye had 2:32:26.840 --> 2:32:30.800 this exchange referencing body weight being demonic and a part 2:32:30.879 --> 2:32:38.160 of quote, black genocide. It's actually clinically unhealthy and for 2:32:38.440 --> 2:32:46.520 people to owe to promote that. Um, it's said it's demonic. 2:32:47.400 --> 2:32:49.879 You know what would I ask you? I've noticed this? Also, 2:32:50.680 --> 2:32:53.720 why do you think they would want to promote unhealthiness 2:32:53.959 --> 2:32:56.800 among the population. It's a genocide of the black race. 2:32:57.240 --> 2:32:59.800 They want to kill us in any way they can. 2:33:00.640 --> 2:33:02.880 Kanye then goes on to talk about like abortion also 2:33:02.959 --> 2:33:05.879 being black genocide, which he has been talking a lot 2:33:05.959 --> 2:33:18.320 about in the past few weeks. Um, Yeah, that Lizzo clip, Like, man, 2:33:18.680 --> 2:33:25.520 it's that was like just like I mean like I 2:33:26.080 --> 2:33:30.600 can only wait, I can only think of like vulgar 2:33:30.680 --> 2:33:33.320 phrases to describe it where it's just like it just 2:33:33.480 --> 2:33:36.119 it just kicked me in my balls, dude, like we're 2:33:36.120 --> 2:33:38.800 already on the ground. Just that's what if it's just 2:33:38.840 --> 2:33:40.760 felt like a ball stomp or it's just like you 2:33:40.840 --> 2:33:45.160 don't have to come on, man, you're a you're down, 2:33:45.280 --> 2:33:50.400 bad bro. Like, really, I got nothing, man, Like, why 2:33:50.440 --> 2:33:54.120 are you going to I'm gonna like, it's exhausting. Yeah, 2:33:54.160 --> 2:33:56.320 that's what I'm trying to say. It's exhausting. Were just like, yeah, 2:33:56.440 --> 2:34:00.760 all of all of the coverage is exhausting, and feeding 2:34:00.800 --> 2:34:04.440 in and like, the feeding into it as media spectacle 2:34:04.560 --> 2:34:07.600 only encourages this type of like unhealthy behavior and it 2:34:07.720 --> 2:34:10.640 does not help. Like it it doesn't help to be 2:34:10.760 --> 2:34:14.280 a regular person on social media having like strangers interact 2:34:14.320 --> 2:34:16.560 with you in a weird way, let alone, if if 2:34:16.560 --> 2:34:18.560 you're one of the most famous people in the world, like, 2:34:18.680 --> 2:34:22.320 it's it's not it's not healthy. I'm going to quote 2:34:22.360 --> 2:34:24.320 from New Republic, and this is kind of about his 2:34:24.640 --> 2:34:28.240 White Lives Matter shirt and his initial Tucker Carlson appearance 2:34:28.360 --> 2:34:32.520 quote little more than a troll, another tiresome and mediocre 2:34:32.760 --> 2:34:36.160 provocation to stirrup attention by using a contrarian slogan that 2:34:36.280 --> 2:34:40.160 until now was mostly associated with far right white supremacists. 2:34:40.840 --> 2:34:43.840 West has in recent years made more waves with his 2:34:43.920 --> 2:34:46.840 efforts to trigger the libs than he has with his music. 2:34:47.240 --> 2:34:49.440 White Lives Matters is still gonna associated with hate groups, 2:34:49.879 --> 2:34:53.160 but he got what he sought attention and amplification from 2:34:53.200 --> 2:34:56.320 Republicans and right wing media, West earned to sit down 2:34:56.400 --> 2:34:59.440 with Fox News on Tucker Carlson Tonight to talk about 2:34:59.520 --> 2:35:03.200 his boy Trump and the response he has received his 2:35:03.280 --> 2:35:08.200 overall negaification. Carlson was hardly alone and celebrating West for 2:35:08.320 --> 2:35:11.280 not only rejecting Black Lives matter, but promoting the same 2:35:11.400 --> 2:35:15.360 sense of white grievance and victimization that he has trumpeted 2:35:15.440 --> 2:35:18.560 on his Fox News program for years. The Republican House 2:35:18.680 --> 2:35:22.879 Judiciary Committee Twitter account spent hours slabbing over the interview, 2:35:23.240 --> 2:35:25.640 taking a victory lap of sorts for It's a new 2:35:25.720 --> 2:35:30.120 generation of edge Lords and the A tweet from the 2:35:30.480 --> 2:35:33.879 the Judiciary gop account is still up that just reads 2:35:34.240 --> 2:35:40.440 Kanye period elon period Trump period, which my god, if 2:35:40.520 --> 2:35:43.120 that's the state of the of the Republican Party, like 2:35:44.200 --> 2:35:52.400 this your king yah ah. So at first, Kanye appeared 2:35:52.480 --> 2:35:56.199 to relish in the T shirt controversy, writing on Instagram 2:35:56.360 --> 2:36:01.480 that my one T shirt took all the attention. After 2:36:01.640 --> 2:36:04.440 the T shirt incident, Adidas said that they were placing 2:36:04.520 --> 2:36:09.480 its lucrative sneaker deal under review. The previous month, Kanye 2:36:09.560 --> 2:36:13.400 exited his deal with the Gap, and you know several 2:36:13.480 --> 2:36:18.520 contemporaries of Kanye did push back on this ship that 2:36:18.600 --> 2:36:23.080 he was pulling um, including a rapper Sean Diddy Combs 2:36:23.160 --> 2:36:25.160 who Can, who condemned the design in a video on 2:36:25.240 --> 2:36:29.400 Instagram and said, don't wear the shirt, don't buy the shirt, 2:36:29.520 --> 2:36:33.040 don't play with the shirt. This is not a joke. Um. 2:36:33.640 --> 2:36:35.840 And what happened next took things to a new level 2:36:35.920 --> 2:36:40.200 of grotesqueness. West spent the next few days spewing anti 2:36:40.240 --> 2:36:44.080 Semitic vitriol online, first on on Instagram, where Kanye posted 2:36:44.120 --> 2:36:46.800 screenshots from a private message exchange between him and Combs 2:36:47.160 --> 2:36:51.640 where he suggested that Combs was being controlled by Jewish people, saying, 2:36:51.920 --> 2:36:53.920 I'm gonna use you as an example to show the 2:36:54.000 --> 2:36:56.880 Jewish people that told you to call me that no 2:36:57.040 --> 2:37:02.440 one can threaten or influence me. So obviously not great, 2:37:02.520 --> 2:37:10.480 playing at being influenced by yes bye bye, like by 2:37:10.560 --> 2:37:15.440 fossil fuel billionaires essentially. Um, but yeah, obviously not playing 2:37:15.640 --> 2:37:17.880 not great, playing right into the kind of ideas that 2:37:18.000 --> 2:37:22.240 Jewish people like control into the entertainment industry and like 2:37:22.920 --> 2:37:26.360 have direct influence on what people say, you know, basic 2:37:26.400 --> 2:37:29.760 anti Semitism stuff. Um. So soon after this, his Instagram 2:37:29.800 --> 2:37:32.920 account was suspended, and then after he was locked out 2:37:32.959 --> 2:37:37.160 of his account, Kandie decided to re join Twitter dot 2:37:37.240 --> 2:37:40.640 com after a two year hiatus, and it was welcomed 2:37:40.680 --> 2:37:45.440 back by Elon Musk saying well, welcome back friend um. 2:37:46.400 --> 2:37:51.600 Minutes minutes later, minutes after elon is welcoming of Elon 2:37:52.200 --> 2:37:56.600 of of of minutes minutes later after after Elon's welcoming 2:37:57.280 --> 2:38:01.879 of of of Kanye West, Cannie tweeted, I'm a bit 2:38:01.959 --> 2:38:05.119 sleepy tonight, which is a weird way to open this tweet. 2:38:05.200 --> 2:38:09.960 By the way, I'm a bit sleepy tonight. Okay, but 2:38:10.080 --> 2:38:12.959 what but when I wake up, I'm going death con 2:38:13.320 --> 2:38:17.240 three on Jewish people, Jewish jew Jewish people in all caps. 2:38:18.000 --> 2:38:20.360 The funny thing is is that I can't actually be 2:38:20.520 --> 2:38:24.760 anti Semitic because black people are actually jew Also, you guys, 2:38:26.360 --> 2:38:31.920 I don't say the whole word jewey. That was a 2:38:32.160 --> 2:38:35.880 that was a TV joke. That wasn't Garrison being You 2:38:35.959 --> 2:38:38.160 guys have twyted with me and tried to black ball 2:38:38.240 --> 2:38:41.600 anyone who are whoever opposes your agenda, with the follow 2:38:41.640 --> 2:38:45.279 up tweet saying, who do you think created cancel culture? 2:38:45.840 --> 2:38:49.640 Which so that's also Okay, I I do want to 2:38:49.640 --> 2:38:52.840 stop at that. That is a much deeper Nazi reference 2:38:53.080 --> 2:38:56.600 than you might guess. There's a called the culture of Critique. 2:38:56.959 --> 2:39:01.080 There was a deep understanding among the gi Nazis back 2:39:01.120 --> 2:39:04.640 in the twenties and thirties that literary criticism that like 2:39:04.760 --> 2:39:07.920 the idea of sort of cultural criticism, that these were 2:39:08.000 --> 2:39:11.560 all Jewish plots in order to like, you know, it's 2:39:11.560 --> 2:39:13.360 actually similar to a lot of what the rights is today, 2:39:13.400 --> 2:39:15.400 in order to like make white people feel bad and 2:39:15.480 --> 2:39:19.120 shamed about their culture um Nazis. Today, there's a book 2:39:19.120 --> 2:39:20.920 called a culture of the Culture of Critique or a 2:39:21.040 --> 2:39:24.960 culture of Critique that's about the same thing. This is 2:39:25.000 --> 2:39:29.039 actually a really deep idea. And Robert, are you saying 2:39:29.080 --> 2:39:31.720 that the cultural Marxists at the Frankfurt School invented political 2:39:31.760 --> 2:39:36.160 correctness to undermine Western civilization? Now I'm saying that, yes, 2:39:36.360 --> 2:39:38.800 But I'm also saying in a deeper sense that the 2:39:38.920 --> 2:39:42.400 Jews invented the concept of feeling bad about bad things 2:39:42.480 --> 2:39:45.080 in order to make white people feel bad about conquering 2:39:45.120 --> 2:39:48.080 the world, which was the original. That's that's that's the 2:39:48.160 --> 2:39:52.600 o G ship. Before we water this ship down, before 2:39:52.840 --> 2:39:55.280 before it becomes cultural Marxism back when it's good old 2:39:55.280 --> 2:40:04.879 fashioned cultural Bolshevism. Yes, cultur So that's the one version. Yeah, yeah, exactly, 2:40:05.000 --> 2:40:09.120 that's the that's the I don't know the iPhone, you 2:40:09.160 --> 2:40:12.520 know what I'm saying. You want you want a BlackBerry racism? Yeah, 2:40:12.680 --> 2:40:17.320 that's right. So this is basically a lot of like 2:40:17.560 --> 2:40:22.360 textbook anti semitism um mixed in with some black Hebrew 2:40:22.640 --> 2:40:25.800 Israelite shit um about you know, being the true chosen 2:40:25.879 --> 2:40:28.520 people of God, kind of akin to like the if 2:40:28.600 --> 2:40:30.840 people listen to the show, they'll they might be familiar 2:40:30.879 --> 2:40:34.000 with like the Nazi Christian identity idea of white Christians 2:40:34.080 --> 2:40:41.120 being the real Israelites. Here, Yeah, it started, so we 2:40:41.200 --> 2:40:44.560 get the start of black Israelism in the Northeast into 2:40:45.160 --> 2:40:47.440 the Midwest. I think it's Kansas and New York City 2:40:47.480 --> 2:40:50.320 are two of the big early cities in the eighteen nineties, 2:40:50.520 --> 2:40:54.520 and it's like it's number one anti Semitic from the start. 2:40:54.640 --> 2:40:57.560 An awful lot of it is based around like a 2:40:57.640 --> 2:41:01.320 hatred of Jewish people, um. But it's also this like 2:41:01.480 --> 2:41:04.960 idea that there's X number thirteen lost is tribes of 2:41:05.080 --> 2:41:08.680 Israel and then the black people are the lost tribes 2:41:08.720 --> 2:41:10.480 of Israel, and so there would be mixes of like 2:41:11.160 --> 2:41:15.720 taking actual elements of like Hebrew religious worship and uh 2:41:16.120 --> 2:41:20.520 mixing them in with kind of weirder stuff. Anyway, it's 2:41:20.600 --> 2:41:24.080 it's it's has a long history. It is concentrated. Like 2:41:24.720 --> 2:41:26.680 the part of this like if you have ever spent 2:41:26.760 --> 2:41:29.440 time in like New York, like Philly or whatever, you 2:41:29.560 --> 2:41:32.160 have run into black israel Lites on the street like there, 2:41:32.280 --> 2:41:35.440 it's it's a thing that you will encounter. Um, there's 2:41:35.480 --> 2:41:37.560 not a ton of them. I think most essens like 2:41:37.600 --> 2:41:41.760 twenty or thirty thousand, but they're they're very vocal. Yeah. 2:41:41.879 --> 2:41:44.760 The phrase now with like most of the Hebrew reals lights. 2:41:44.800 --> 2:41:47.160 It's like the two children in Israel are the black 2:41:47.240 --> 2:41:50.400 Latino and this so called Native American or this. Yeah, 2:41:50.680 --> 2:41:54.920 so it's this this idea and here's where here's where 2:41:54.920 --> 2:41:59.879 it gets tantalizing and complicated in I'm saying this as 2:41:59.879 --> 2:42:05.760 a black man. You know, is you open your Bible 2:42:06.600 --> 2:42:09.320 and at the back of every bible got a map, 2:42:10.120 --> 2:42:12.760 and you're looking at it and you're going, well, is 2:42:12.800 --> 2:42:16.400 where the ship take place? Right? So you're like, well, 2:42:16.480 --> 2:42:21.240 how come y'all only teaching us about Europeans. You only 2:42:21.320 --> 2:42:23.760 talking about every painting got these white people. Everybody. You're 2:42:23.760 --> 2:42:25.920 just like, no, this don't this ship don't make sense, 2:42:26.080 --> 2:42:29.720 this can't be it. And then I'm getting I'm getting 2:42:29.720 --> 2:42:33.320 deep cuts here. It's like you. And then you get 2:42:33.360 --> 2:42:35.520 into the Book of Acts, where it's supposed to be 2:42:35.600 --> 2:42:38.480 the Bible, like where the gospel spreads. And the first 2:42:38.520 --> 2:42:41.440 time they leave, the first time they leave Israel is 2:42:41.600 --> 2:42:45.640 Stephen meeting in Ethiopian, just meeting the Ethiopian Unich, and 2:42:45.680 --> 2:42:48.400 the Ethiopian goes to where where was Moses when Moses? 2:42:48.600 --> 2:42:50.720 Others back in the Exitus story, where was Moses? Where 2:42:50.720 --> 2:42:54.000 did Moses go when he fled? When he fled Egypt, 2:42:54.320 --> 2:42:56.680 he went to Midian, he went to Ethiopia. So you're like, 2:42:56.840 --> 2:43:00.440 this ship took place in Africa, right, and at the time, 2:43:01.240 --> 2:43:06.360 we you still believe like the Sinai Peninsula as North Africa, 2:43:06.920 --> 2:43:10.920 you know, so you're like, these are brown skin people. 2:43:11.600 --> 2:43:15.120 Why is your narrative and everything you tell me about 2:43:15.120 --> 2:43:19.080 white people? So if you still believe, if you were 2:43:19.120 --> 2:43:22.600 still sort of like in all of the story and 2:43:22.720 --> 2:43:28.560 the person thislike this subversive you know, socialist, you know, 2:43:28.959 --> 2:43:35.720 anti imperialistic, ampi, anti empire character of Jesus that you 2:43:35.840 --> 2:43:39.000 know you're Arab and Muslim friends still understand as as 2:43:39.320 --> 2:43:43.520 you know, as he says like a person, then you're like, yo, 2:43:43.680 --> 2:43:45.920 we might be talking about the same man here, and 2:43:46.080 --> 2:43:49.200 he was as brown as us. So and if you're 2:43:49.240 --> 2:43:50.840 like and if you're like the God, you're like, dude, 2:43:50.840 --> 2:43:54.280 the gospel with South we hit, we hit in Ethiopia, 2:43:54.400 --> 2:43:57.199 there's accident the first Christian city, like at some point 2:43:57.280 --> 2:44:01.160 you like, the ship didn't go north until four years later. 2:44:02.040 --> 2:44:05.440 So you you just draw this conclusion that like, if 2:44:05.440 --> 2:44:08.920 you're gonna box me out, my only response, if you're 2:44:08.920 --> 2:44:11.800 gonna box me out of all of the clear history 2:44:12.200 --> 2:44:15.959 that took place among brown skinned people, then I'm gonna 2:44:16.000 --> 2:44:17.800 be like, I have no choice but to be like, well, 2:44:17.800 --> 2:44:20.760 fuck y'all, not a true Israel over here. And if 2:44:20.840 --> 2:44:23.640 you read again, if you you can't not possibly be 2:44:23.840 --> 2:44:28.920 black and read the book of Exodus and be like, well, ship, 2:44:29.080 --> 2:44:31.840 that's us. You know what I'm saying. You can't like, 2:44:31.959 --> 2:44:34.280 how do you not see it? You know? So so 2:44:34.560 --> 2:44:37.600 it's it's so alluring, especially again when you go to 2:44:37.680 --> 2:44:40.480 the when the white pass are talking about like, well, 2:44:40.600 --> 2:44:43.280 your poverty is your choice, and hey, well you know, 2:44:43.400 --> 2:44:45.800 and your reform Calvinist person was like, well that was 2:44:45.920 --> 2:44:48.720 the Lord's divine will. You were you know, you were 2:44:48.800 --> 2:44:52.960 divinely ordained, you know, to be suffering people. And at 2:44:53.040 --> 2:44:55.520 least at least you got the Gospel because you were 2:44:55.560 --> 2:44:58.120 a slave. Maybe God was solving. You're like, fuck that 2:44:58.680 --> 2:45:01.120 that can't possibly be to God I'm reading about in 2:45:01.200 --> 2:45:04.120 this book, you know, so you're like, Okay, well I 2:45:04.240 --> 2:45:06.960 guess you know what I'm saying. And then it's like 2:45:07.160 --> 2:45:08.960 I'm I'm I'm ranting on this because I feel like 2:45:09.120 --> 2:45:12.199 like it's especially for this audience to really understand that context. 2:45:12.680 --> 2:45:15.440 You this this street in a lot of ways, like 2:45:15.480 --> 2:45:18.000 it became like this street religion. It gives these young 2:45:18.120 --> 2:45:22.320 men dignity, you know what I'm saying. You're you're offering 2:45:22.440 --> 2:45:29.520 them a sense of history and importance and dignity and 2:45:29.760 --> 2:45:33.200 and and order that we you usually just get from 2:45:33.240 --> 2:45:35.360 the streets. You know what I'm saying. It's not happening 2:45:35.360 --> 2:45:37.640 in the Sunday school because at church that's just oh black, 2:45:37.760 --> 2:45:40.680 that's just old women singing these hymns in the big hats, 2:45:40.720 --> 2:45:44.080 it's like I'm not getting that sort of like that 2:45:44.480 --> 2:45:46.880 that masculine hit, if you will, you know what I'm saying. 2:45:46.920 --> 2:45:48.520 So like this a lot of this faith like it 2:45:48.640 --> 2:45:53.040 really it attracts young men because it's like it's like 2:45:53.240 --> 2:45:56.040 we it's like we needed that order, We needed somebody 2:45:56.120 --> 2:45:58.040 to like come and like be a little more military 2:45:58.040 --> 2:46:00.920 about us. But then tied this longer history. Because if 2:46:00.959 --> 2:46:03.760 the only history you hear about yourself is your oppression 2:46:04.200 --> 2:46:06.520 for somebody to be like, no, you've chosen people to God, 2:46:06.640 --> 2:46:09.480 you're gonna be like, well, hell yeah, you know. And 2:46:09.560 --> 2:46:12.480 then again, I can't stress this enough. Part of this 2:46:12.800 --> 2:46:16.199 is in reaction to what white evangelical did by trying 2:46:16.240 --> 2:46:18.640 to erase brown people from the history. You know what 2:46:18.640 --> 2:46:21.600 I'm saying. It's like I'm I can't. I'm like, that's 2:46:21.680 --> 2:46:26.600 clear he clearly your picture is Michael Angelo's booth thing 2:46:27.120 --> 2:46:31.840 of of that's that's an Italian man like that can't 2:46:31.959 --> 2:46:36.320 possibly be the dude in these books, you know. So 2:46:36.520 --> 2:46:39.640 you like, I mean he was Jesus was black, Like 2:46:39.720 --> 2:46:43.120 I would like you just that's your only conclusion, and 2:46:43.240 --> 2:46:47.520 you like and these people are saying, yeah, you're right, absolutely, 2:46:47.840 --> 2:46:49.600 and you're like, well, well, shoot, I'll rock with y'all, 2:46:49.840 --> 2:46:53.280 you know, and it's it's it's definitely unclear what the 2:46:53.920 --> 2:46:59.600 extent of Kanye's belief and stuff around black Israelite type 2:46:59.640 --> 2:47:02.760 stuff is. He's still has a lot of the evangelical 2:47:02.840 --> 2:47:06.360 type stuff going on and what he's saying, so he 2:47:06.480 --> 2:47:08.320 could have just picked up these types of things from 2:47:08.400 --> 2:47:11.120 cultural osmosis. We'll hear a little bit more about what 2:47:11.240 --> 2:47:13.160 he has to say about this in the next episode, 2:47:13.360 --> 2:47:15.640 but we're gonna have to I'm gonna have to call 2:47:15.760 --> 2:47:18.959 it there. That's going to be a day and join 2:47:19.080 --> 2:47:23.280 us after the weekend for a special special part two 2:47:24.280 --> 2:47:29.560 on on on the Feed talking about more of the same, 2:47:29.680 --> 2:47:32.680 more of the same thing, but getting slightly worse. Um. 2:47:33.240 --> 2:47:35.600 And it turns out when you get kicked out Twitter 2:47:35.800 --> 2:47:37.560 that that doesn't stop you from saying bad things. You 2:47:37.640 --> 2:47:42.280 just start saying that other places. Um. So anyway, yeah, 2:47:42.480 --> 2:47:51.240 that's that. I very impressed, Garrison. Hey, we'll be back 2:47:51.320 --> 2:47:54.480 Monday with more episodes every week from now until the 2:47:54.520 --> 2:47:57.040 heat death of the Universe. It could happen here is 2:47:57.080 --> 2:47:59.760 a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 2:47:59.760 --> 2:48:02.680 cool Zone Media, visit our website, cool zone media dot com, 2:48:02.840 --> 2:48:04.600 or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 2:48:04.600 --> 2:48:07.760 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 2:48:07.800 --> 2:48:10.480 find sources for It could happen here, updated monthly at 2:48:10.520 --> 2:48:13.760 cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.