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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: Is Happy the elephant unhappy? Living alone on a one

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Speaker 1: acre exhibit at the Bronx Zoo. Animal rights advocates say

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Speaker 1: she is, and they've been trying to get her move

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Speaker 1: to an elephant sanctuary. But a judge in New York

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Speaker 1: dismissed the lawsuit by the Non Human Rights Project against

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Speaker 1: the Bronx Zoo, which sought to declare Happy a person

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Speaker 1: with a right to be free. Judge Allison too it

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Speaker 1: concluded that Happy is more than just a legal thing

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Speaker 1: or property, and recognize that she's an extraordinary animal with

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Speaker 1: complex cognitive abilities, but said the case law constrained her

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Speaker 1: to find that Happy is not a person who is

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Speaker 1: being legally imprisoned. Joining me is Stephen Wise, the founder

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Speaker 1: and lead attorney of the Non Human Rights Project. So

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Speaker 1: are you disappointed with the judge's decision? No, we actually

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Speaker 1: we were thrilled by it. The judge made it clear

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Speaker 1: that she understood our arguments and seemed to agree with

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Speaker 1: our arguments. The main reason that that the judge found

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Speaker 1: that Happy was not a person with rights is that

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Speaker 1: she felt that she was bound by the decision of

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Speaker 1: a court in another case uh that that we had

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Speaker 1: litigated several years ago. Even though we tried to persuade her,

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Speaker 1: she was not found, but she made it clear that

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Speaker 1: we had persuaded her that an elephant is at this

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Speaker 1: extraordinary being who has really complex cognitive abilities and is autonomous.

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Speaker 1: She agreed that that Happy, she said, was more than

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Speaker 1: just a legal thing, that she was an intelligent, autonomous

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Speaker 1: being who we should treat with respect and dignity and

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Speaker 1: who may be entitled to liberty. However, she said she

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Speaker 1: thought that she was constrained by a case, and that's

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Speaker 1: fine with us. Um, we have already begun the appellate

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Speaker 1: process and kind of keep moving towards judges beginning to

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Speaker 1: find that this autonomous being like like Happy really is

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Speaker 1: entitled to to some sort of fundamental rights such as

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Speaker 1: bother liberty and can no longer be kept as a prisoner,

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Speaker 1: such as that the Bronx has been doing. Tell us

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Speaker 1: a little bit about Happy. She was part of a

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Speaker 1: study that described her ability to recognize herself in a mirror.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about her and what her

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Speaker 1: situation is. Well. Happy. She was kidnapped from her home

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Speaker 1: in Thailand when she was only a few months old,

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Speaker 1: and she has been imprisoned in the Bronx Zoo for

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Speaker 1: more than forty years, and the last ten or fifteen

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Speaker 1: years she's actually lived alone. This sort of thing is

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Speaker 1: quite similar to what a human being would endure. The

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Speaker 1: idea that it's incredibly intelligent, autonomous, cognitively complex being who's

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily social would be kept in solitary confinement is um

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Speaker 1: is not something that we would wish on on anyone.

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Speaker 1: There's no reason for her to do that. She should

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Speaker 1: be sent to a sanctuary, and the Tennessee Elephant Sanctuary

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Speaker 1: has readily agreed to take her it at no cost

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Speaker 1: to the Bronx Zoo, and the judge specifically found so,

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Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, she said that the Non Human

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Speaker 1: Rights Project had been extremely persuasive for transferring Happy from

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Speaker 1: her solitary, lonely one acre exhibit at the Bronx Sioux

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Speaker 1: to an elephant sanctuary on acre lot unquote. That's true,

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Speaker 1: and that's where she should be. There's no scientific there's

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Speaker 1: no reason at all except pure greed that they want

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Speaker 1: to use her Happy to raise money. They essentially enslave her,

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Speaker 1: and they continue to enslave her, And there's no humane

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Speaker 1: or legal reason why they should not have done this

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Speaker 1: a long time ago and why they should not do

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Speaker 1: it now, which is take her out of a one

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Speaker 1: acre place. For an elephant to be living by herself

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Speaker 1: on a one acre plot of land is kind of

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Speaker 1: like you and I having to spend our life living

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Speaker 1: in our living room. It's just obviously not right. Is

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Speaker 1: there another way that you could have gone about this

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Speaker 1: instead of trying to have her declared a person? Oh? No, Actually,

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Speaker 1: that's why we bring habeas corpus cases on on on

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Speaker 1: behalf of cognitie topically complex things like elephants or chimpanzees. Um.

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Speaker 1: What the bronxio is perfectly legal, at least with respect

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Speaker 1: to animal welfare laws. The problem is that the animal

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Speaker 1: welfare animal protection laws themselves are grossly insufficient. They're simply improper.

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Speaker 1: The way we're trying to get happy to be able

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Speaker 1: to live the life that is that is appropriate for

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Speaker 1: an elephant is by having her a person. Or you

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Speaker 1: don't have to declare a person. You just simply say

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Speaker 1: that she's entitled, as the judge said that she may

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Speaker 1: be entitled to liberty. We want to judge the judges

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Speaker 1: in the apolic courts to say she may be entitled liberty.

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Speaker 1: We're going to use the rid of habeas corpus to

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Speaker 1: order her released from the Bronxio and then sent to

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Speaker 1: a sanctuary. There's no other way of getting it done

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Speaker 1: right now, So what are your chances before the appellate courts.

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Speaker 1: You've gone to the appellate courts a number of times

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Speaker 1: on this issue, not perhaps for Happy, but for other animals.

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Speaker 1: What are your chances of getting the appellate courts to

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Speaker 1: change their mind. We have gone to several appellate courts.

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Speaker 1: They have been all over the map. One appellate court

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Speaker 1: said that we didn't have a right to appeal. All

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Speaker 1: the other appellate courts did not agree with that appellate court.

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Speaker 1: We had another one who said that we weren't trying

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Speaker 1: to free Happy, but just to move her from one

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Speaker 1: place of confinement to another. Judge Fahey on the New

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Speaker 1: York Court of Appeals said that that was wrong. We

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Speaker 1: had another appellate court who said that in order to

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Speaker 1: get right, you have to be able to bear responsibilities,

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Speaker 1: which is obviously false since there are hundreds and thousands

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Speaker 1: of New Yorkers, children and others who obviously have all

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Speaker 1: kinds of rights but cannot bear responsibilities. And Judge Fahey

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Speaker 1: said that was wrong. And then we had another appellate

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Speaker 1: court that said, in order to have rights, you have

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Speaker 1: to be human, and Judge Fahey said that that was wrong.

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Speaker 1: I've been talking to Stephen Wiseman of the Non Human

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Speaker 1: Rights Project about their lawsuit against the Bronx Zoo which

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Speaker 1: start to get Happy the elephant who's living alone on

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Speaker 1: a one acre exhibit at the Bronx Zoo transferred to

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Speaker 1: an elephant sanctuary by having Happy declared a person with

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Speaker 1: a right to be free. So what are your chances

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Speaker 1: of getting this case to the Court of Appeals? Well,

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Speaker 1: the Court of Appeals only takes five of the of

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Speaker 1: the cases of the folks who who are trying to

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Speaker 1: get further review on their decisions. Judge Fay he changed

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Speaker 1: his mind uh and uh, and decided after on the

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Speaker 1: third time that indeed the court should hear the case

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Speaker 1: and we should likely win. So the question is, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, is you know? Has he persuaded or will

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Speaker 1: he persuade at least two more judges to agree to

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Speaker 1: to just take the case so they can actually hear

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Speaker 1: the arguments, and you know, he makes strong arguments for that.

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Speaker 1: In fact, he's the only High Court judge in the

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Speaker 1: United States so far who has had who has opined

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Speaker 1: on the merits of our case, and he thinks that

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Speaker 1: that we have a winner here, and so we're hoping

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Speaker 1: that other judges will also do Judge Fahey did, which

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Speaker 1: is to begin to to think more about these issues

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Speaker 1: and see that as a matter of law and as

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Speaker 1: a matter of the facts we present, we should win.

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Speaker 1: You've been at this for so many years and it's

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Speaker 1: such a difficult struggle in the courts. What success do

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Speaker 1: you think you've had. How do you think you've changed

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Speaker 1: the mindset of people? We have, Yes, we have done that. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think we filed our first cases in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and thirteen and no one had ever sought um legal

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Speaker 1: person or legal rights on behalf of a non human animal,

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Speaker 1: at least in the English speaking or the Western world,

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Speaker 1: and they had been considered things, you know, basically our

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Speaker 1: slaves to the last two thousand years. So we never

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Speaker 1: expected that the first time, or the fifth time, in

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Speaker 1: the tenth time, that that that its court is just

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Speaker 1: going to say, we've been thinking wrong, We've been making

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Speaker 1: an error for the last two thousand years. We're really sorry.

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Speaker 1: You're right, uh, that it was going to take you

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Speaker 1: quite some time for them to be able to understand

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Speaker 1: our legal arguments, for them to be able to understand

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Speaker 1: just who these non human animals are. That as Justice too,

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Speaker 1: it did. Now she understands that there's these incredibly like

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Speaker 1: an elephants, incredibly cognitively complex being who's autonomous, who's self

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Speaker 1: conscious in and is intelligent in a human way, which

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Speaker 1: is what what what she said, and UM, it takes

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Speaker 1: a lot of times for a judge to be able

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Speaker 1: to have to confront this again and again and really

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Speaker 1: begin to focus on it. And so we have definitely

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Speaker 1: done that, um in the last twenties. So we've been

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Speaker 1: at this a little more than six years, and in

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Speaker 1: that time we have had four judges agree with major

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Speaker 1: parts of what we're doing. So in two thousand and fifteen,

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Speaker 1: Justice Jaffe in the New York County Supreme Court issued,

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Speaker 1: you know, the first order under a habeas corpus statute

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Speaker 1: in the West on on behalf of any non human animal.

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Speaker 1: It's turned out that she indeed also said she was bound,

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Speaker 1: but that case actually was was settled. The those two

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Speaker 1: chimpanzees are now in a sanctuary in Georgia. UM. A

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Speaker 1: second time was when we went in front of of

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Speaker 1: a Judge Banister out in in western New York in

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Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen on on behalf of happy and Judge

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Speaker 1: Banister for the second time issued an order under the

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Speaker 1: habeas corpus statute, this time not on behalf of him

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Speaker 1: of a chimpanzee, but on behalf of an elephant. Then

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Speaker 1: we had just last week Justice to it made it

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Speaker 1: clear in her decision that that she you know, would

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Speaker 1: likely or would would have given serious thought to issuing

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Speaker 1: the order, the habeas corpus um order, except she felt

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Speaker 1: too that she was bound by this other case. And

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Speaker 1: then all and then Judge Fay, sitting on the court

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Speaker 1: of it Eels has said that he essentially agrees with us.

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Speaker 1: So so really four times in the last six years

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Speaker 1: we've had a New York judge agree with large chunks

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Speaker 1: of what we are doing. And for us, we think

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Speaker 1: that's actually um uh, that's actually uh acceptance at a

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Speaker 1: faster rate than we had first thought we would do.

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Speaker 1: In the first six years does it also take other

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Speaker 1: kinds of actions. I mean, are you going to have

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Speaker 1: to have the laws changed? Well, we we we are

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Speaker 1: having the laws change, you know, we we are. We

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Speaker 1: are suing not under a statute or under a constitutional provision,

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Speaker 1: but we're suing under under the common law. We're using

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Speaker 1: a common law rate of habeas corpus. So the common

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Speaker 1: law in New York is the law that the judges make,

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Speaker 1: So the judges themselves can change the law of habeas corpus.

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Speaker 1: They don't need we don't need a statute. That's why

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Speaker 1: we're going in front of the judges, were saying that

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Speaker 1: judges like you made the common law that all non

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Speaker 1: human animals are legal things who don't have rights. You

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Speaker 1: have a duty now to hear us out, and you

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Speaker 1: have a duty, we argued to now change the law

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Speaker 1: in light of the fact of what we know about

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Speaker 1: these extraordinary beings um and in fact and in in

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Speaker 1: light of the fact that the the law is changing,

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Speaker 1: and we're making powerful legal arguments, and we're also setting

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Speaker 1: out facts that that have to make them think about

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Speaker 1: whether it is morally right and whether it ought to

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Speaker 1: be legally right to imprison You know, things are so

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Speaker 1: incredibly cognitively complicated. If you think through to the endpoint

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Speaker 1: of your arguments, is it that there shouldn't be any zoos. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not so much zoos, it's um non human animals.

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Speaker 1: It's it's um um who who are they? And in

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Speaker 1: zoos there might be thousands of different species of non

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Speaker 1: human animals. There are certain ones that are clear should

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Speaker 1: never be in a zoo or an aquarium for example. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, any of the great apes, any of the elephants,

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Speaker 1: um Orca's whales and dolphins. These sorts of being should

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Speaker 1: never be imprisoned. Never. They are just so cognitively complex,

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Speaker 1: they're so social. Uh, in in in a very human way. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's simply wrong. Now as to what you know as

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Speaker 1: to what some some some non human animal that we don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't really know a whole lot about who's in

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Speaker 1: a zoo, how that animal should be treated, I can't

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Speaker 1: really say because we haven't studied him or her. Uh.

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Speaker 1: We were moving on to onto Orca's probably because we're

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Speaker 1: going to begin to file suits in California, in Colorado,

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Speaker 1: We've we've been filing suits on behalf of elephants in Connecticut,

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Speaker 1: and we're working with groups all over the world, you know,

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Speaker 1: in India, in Canada, in in England and Israel, in

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Speaker 1: in Scandinavia, and we'll see what non human animals we

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Speaker 1: we work with tom to try to work with them,

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Speaker 1: to try to uh to free. So it's and it's

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Speaker 1: not really the name of the organization that is imprisoning them.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not whether you're sanctuary or whether you're zoo.

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Speaker 1: The question is are you respecting the kind of being

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Speaker 1: that they are? So example, for example, uh, if a

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Speaker 1: chimpanzee or an elephant is autonomous, and we prove and

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Speaker 1: and the other side doesn't even bother to try to

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Speaker 1: challenge our proof. We prove that they are autonomous. So

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Speaker 1: whatever an entity calls itself, if they're not respecting the

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Speaker 1: autonomy of an elephant like like happy, then we're going

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Speaker 1: to secret of habeas corpus on on that that being's

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Speaker 1: behalf if they are respecting them. So for example, in

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Speaker 1: an entity like the Tennessee Elephant Sanctuary that has acres,

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Speaker 1: then and then they are respecting on the autonomy of

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Speaker 1: an elephant, they allow her to to make choices. You know,

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Speaker 1: Autonomy really is the ability to make choices, and they

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Speaker 1: can choose what they're gonna do during the day. They

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Speaker 1: can choose who their friends are. They can choose what

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Speaker 1: they're going to do, because that's what elephants are and

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Speaker 1: they have they have, or they ought to have the

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Speaker 1: fundamental right to be able to to live their lives

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Speaker 1: uh in a way that's in harmony with their mental abilities,

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Speaker 1: with their here, with with their autonomy. The Zoos director

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Speaker 1: says that the ruling keeps Happy in a place providing

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Speaker 1: her with excellent care. The veterinarians, keepers and curators of

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Speaker 1: the Bronx who believe it's best for Happy to remain

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Speaker 1: in familiar surroundings with the people she knows, relies on

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Speaker 1: and trust. Do you think that was part of the

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Speaker 1: judge's reasoning. We don't have any any evidence that that

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Speaker 1: was true. There weren't any caregivers who testified. There weren't

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Speaker 1: any caregivers who filed an affidavit. There's no evidence that

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Speaker 1: that Happy has any relationship with their caregivers. And we

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Speaker 1: have found in other cases, especially one that was filed

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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles against the l A Zoo, where you

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Speaker 1: have these caregivers who were in the words of the

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Speaker 1: judge engage in delusion that somehow they were doing all

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Speaker 1: the all the right things for the elephant in the

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Speaker 1: l A Zoo, and they the judge actually found them

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Speaker 1: to be deluded and ignorant. And we have no reason

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Speaker 1: to think that the character present at the Bronxio are

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Speaker 1: not equally deluded and ignorant. And even if there were

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Speaker 1: relationships with them, it's time to get her out of there.

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Speaker 1: You know our experts, and there were no experts who

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Speaker 1: testified against us or filed affidavits. Our expert, specifically Dr

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Speaker 1: Joyce Pool, who is one of the greatest elephant experts

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Speaker 1: in the world, said that it doesn't matter what her

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Speaker 1: relationships are, that she works with elephants time and time again,

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Speaker 1: year after year who have been in terrible, terrible conditions

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Speaker 1: where humans have exploited them the way the Bronxio is,

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Speaker 1: and they can be moved and they can be rehabilitated

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Speaker 1: and they begin to blossom. If you if you go

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Speaker 1: to the Bronxou and see Happy Happy just stands there.

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Speaker 1: If you go into the wild, as I have been

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Speaker 1: in a wild and you look at elephants, they just

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Speaker 1: don't stand there. Elephants move around. Elephants as fact, as

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Speaker 1: joy School said, elephants have evolved to move, and they've

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Speaker 1: also evolved to move in large numbers. They they they're

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Speaker 1: they're highly social animals. They discuss what they're going to do,

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Speaker 1: and they literally, Joyce Spool literally says, they discuss things.

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Speaker 1: And Happy is just a depressed being who sits on

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Speaker 1: an acre of land who doesn't move, and once she

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Speaker 1: gets to a proper sanctuary, she will almost certainly blossom

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Speaker 1: into a normal elephant. That's been the history of other

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Speaker 1: elephants who've been in worse situations than has she. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for being on Bloomberg Glass, Stephen. That's Stephen Wisen of

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Speaker 1: the Non Human Rights Project. I'm June Grossel. Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for listening, and remember to tune in to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Laws Show weeknights at ten p m. Eastern right

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Speaker 1: here on Bloomberg Radio.