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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session three oh seven of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation

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Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. Have you heard? My

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Speaker 1: first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order right

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Speaker 1: now at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab your copy to

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Speaker 1: learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,

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Speaker 1: why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to

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Speaker 1: take when it's time to end of friendship. We'll have

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Speaker 1: lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want

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Speaker 1: to miss it. Pre Order your copy of Sisterhood Heels

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Speaker 1: right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. This week, we're

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Speaker 1: revisiting an episode from our archives and diving into the

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Speaker 1: world of EMDR. EMDR stands for imovement, desensitization and reprocessing

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Speaker 1: and is a treatment method designed for treating trauma, PTSD, anxiety,

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Speaker 1: and panic. Our guest for this In Case You Misted

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Speaker 1: episode is Kelly Davis, a licensed professional counselor based in Memphis, Tennessee.

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Speaker 1: Kelly and I explored what EMDR is, how it works,

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Speaker 1: and how it differs from traditional talk therapy. If something

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Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with

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Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session

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Speaker 1: or join us over in the sister circles to talk

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Speaker 1: more in depth about the episode. You can join us

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Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. So, Kelly,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome. So you are here to talk with us

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Speaker 1: all about e MDR. So, first of all, can you

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Speaker 1: tell us what those letters stand for.

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Speaker 2: EMDR stands for Imovement, Desensitization, Reprocessing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So what is that EMDR.

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Speaker 2: Is a type therapy modality that creates RIM sleep, rapid

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Speaker 2: eyemovement sleep at a waking state. It is believed that

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Speaker 2: a lot of healing and repairing and restoring takes place

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Speaker 2: in rimsleep. So essentially what MDR does is mimic rimsleep,

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Speaker 2: but the client or patient is awake and very aware

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Speaker 2: of what's going on. Many people mistaken for hypnosis. It's

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Speaker 2: not hypnosis. They're awake, they're alert, and they're just kind

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Speaker 2: of guided through correcting areas in their lives that need

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Speaker 2: to be corrected.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and so what is involved in this? Like it

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Speaker 1: sounds like this may require like some kind of equipment

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Speaker 1: or does it involve any kind of equipment?

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Speaker 2: It can involve equipment. When it was first discovered and

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Speaker 2: taught to different clinicians, clinicians were encouraged to create the

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Speaker 2: eye movement process by taking two fingers and waving them

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Speaker 2: back and forth in front of a patient, and patients

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Speaker 2: or clients were asked to track the movement of the

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Speaker 2: fingers going back and forth. And there's some polin issues

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Speaker 2: that still use that. I personally use what are considered

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Speaker 2: tappers that will bilaterally stimulate patients and that's what creates

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Speaker 2: the rimsleep process. As long as the eyes are moving

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Speaker 2: back and forth, then we are mimicking rimsleep. And that's

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Speaker 2: the whole method of what's going on, the eye movement

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Speaker 2: going back and forth.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So these tappers that you're talking about, what would

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Speaker 1: they be doing? You say they stimulate bilateral.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So what I do when I'm using Mdr Joy

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Speaker 2: I will have clients or to hold the tappers in

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Speaker 2: each hand and you can create the intensity of how

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Speaker 2: they buzz back and forth. You can also control how

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Speaker 2: fast the movements go back and forth. Some clients, I

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Speaker 2: will have them to sit on top of them, to

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Speaker 2: put one tapper under each leg or under each foot,

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Speaker 2: because reprocessing traumatic events, you know, it's painful, and so

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Speaker 2: when people get tearful, I like for their hands to

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Speaker 2: be free if they would want to reach for kleenics

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Speaker 2: or clench their hands. But every clinician is different.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, So what clinical issues is e MD are

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Speaker 1: typically used for.

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Speaker 2: It's typically used for people survivors of traumatic experiences, primarily

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Speaker 2: people with post traumatic stress disorder that have these disturbing

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Speaker 2: events that try to process on their own. People try

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Speaker 2: to work them out on their own, and the way

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Speaker 2: they try to get worked out oftentimes are through nightmares

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Speaker 2: and flashbacks. But nightmares people wake up and so they

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Speaker 2: stop the process of trying to work through a traumatic experience,

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Speaker 2: or if there's a flashback, the inclination is let's go

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Speaker 2: ahead and stop it from happening. EMDR will go hit

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Speaker 2: and encourage that in control setting and controlled environment.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this this feels like, is this something that

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Speaker 1: works in tandem with something like cognitive behavioral therapy or

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Speaker 1: is this like a different approach.

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Speaker 2: I definitely think it could work in tandem with CBT.

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Speaker 2: I've had a lot of clients that come to me

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Speaker 2: they've used cognitive behavior therapy to try and to work

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Speaker 2: through traumatic experiences. But that kind of keeps you intellectual,

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Speaker 2: you know, just kind of in your head EMDR. And

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Speaker 2: that's what I like so much about it. It encourages

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Speaker 2: the emotional aspect that goes along with traumatic situations that happen.

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Speaker 2: Most traumatic situations that happen to us, they kind of

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Speaker 2: freeze a story. We're kind of stuck in time, so

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Speaker 2: we can feel all of the all of the painful

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Speaker 2: emotions are still stuck there. EMDR encourages becoming unstuck, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes CBT just cannot reach a client at that level

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Speaker 2: because EMDR can be very physiological. It is trapped in

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Speaker 2: the body. There's some research that talks about MS multiple

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Speaker 2: sclerosis could be considered trapped trauma. Trauma is trapped in

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Speaker 2: the body. So EMDR encourages the processing at a cellular level,

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Speaker 2: and that's a place that talk therapy tries really hard

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Speaker 2: to reach. But in my experience, it can't quite get

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Speaker 2: to it. And most clients will come to me and say,

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Speaker 2: I've talked about this issue. I'm so I'm tired of

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Speaker 2: talking about it. The talking gives it the relief, but

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Speaker 2: it just doesn't get it to the level that that

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Speaker 2: EMDR will will give a client too that I've seen.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this this all sounds really interesting and I

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Speaker 1: want to kind of, you know, help everybody understand like

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Speaker 1: what this exactly looks like. So somebody comes to you,

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Speaker 1: you know, after a traumatic experience, maybe like a bad

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Speaker 1: car accident or something, what kinds of things would happen

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Speaker 1: in like the first couple of sessions, and what would

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Speaker 1: like a course of treatment look like with em DR

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Speaker 1: to help work through the trauma of a car accident.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that's a good example. Somebody comes to me

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Speaker 2: with the car accident. EMDR has phases that you go through.

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Speaker 2: The first phase would be the history taking asking the

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Speaker 2: client exactly what happened, and from events that happened to us,

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Speaker 2: we develop a narrative that oftentimes is self deprecating. Things

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Speaker 2: we begin to believe about ourselves based on what happened,

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Speaker 2: and the belief oftentimes could be I'm not safe, I'm

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Speaker 2: not okay, I'm stuck, I'm going to die now. If

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Speaker 2: the client made it to my office, of course we

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Speaker 2: know that narrative is not true, but they're still living

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Speaker 2: with that narrative that keeps them very hypervigilant. That could

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Speaker 2: keep them from getting back into a car again or

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Speaker 2: just not wanting to drive. So the EMDR process would

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Speaker 2: take a client essentially back to that event and work

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Speaker 2: hard to change the narrative. And you go back to

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Speaker 2: the event with bilateral simulation, asking a client to close

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Speaker 2: their eyes, asking them to think about what the worst

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Speaker 2: part of that was while they're closing their eyes. It

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Speaker 2: just depends on the client, but I will ask that

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Speaker 2: they will talk to me through what's going on. For example,

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Speaker 2: a client may say, I see the red light changing,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I don't want to be there, don't

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Speaker 2: want to get out. So what I would do as

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Speaker 2: a therapist is almost kind of whole that scene and

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Speaker 2: have a client sitting on my couch. Imagine going back

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Speaker 2: to the client that was driving the car. Does that

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Speaker 2: make sense what I'm.

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Speaker 1: Saying, So kind of going back to that moment.

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Speaker 2: Going back to that moment while you're still being bilaterally

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Speaker 2: stimulated mm hm, and asking the client, you know, what

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Speaker 2: is it you would like to say right now, and

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Speaker 2: without prompting, most clients are able to say, you know,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna be okay, You're gonna make it through. It's

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Speaker 2: not gonna be good at the same time, you're gonna

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Speaker 2: make it through. So with the bilateral stimulation, now the

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Speaker 2: body in the brain is buying into the narrative that

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Speaker 2: I'm safe, I'm gonna be okay, not coming out unscathed,

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Speaker 2: but still say I survived this incident, and the bilateral

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Speaker 2: simulation helps the client to take on that new belief,

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Speaker 2: thereby releasing some of the anxiety that's associated with it.

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Speaker 2: Prior to an MDR session.

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Speaker 1: More from my conversation with Kelly after the Break.

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Speaker 2: Have you heard?

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Speaker 1: My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order

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Speaker 1: right now at Sisterhoodheels dot com. Grab your copy to

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Speaker 1: learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,

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Speaker 1: why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to

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Speaker 1: take when it's time to end a friendship. We'll have

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Speaker 1: lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want

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Speaker 1: to miss it. Pre order your copy of Sisterhood Heels

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Speaker 1: right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. So it sounds

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Speaker 1: like maybe like your first couple of sessions are really

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Speaker 1: kind of getting a lot of the background information about

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Speaker 1: like setting the scene for the trauma so that you

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Speaker 1: can then use that in your EMDR sessions.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's setting the scene for it. And in this

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Speaker 2: day in time, Joe, you have people with a lot

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Speaker 2: of complex trauma, and it's not uncommon to realize I

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Speaker 2: was in that car wreck and I was unsafe, but

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Speaker 2: now I also remember there was another time in my

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Speaker 2: life that I felt the same way. So it's very

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Speaker 2: common to discover other traumas coming out of just one

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Speaker 2: session and the whole narrative associated with what happened, possibly

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Speaker 2: long before the car accident. Now, there's some research that

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Speaker 2: shows that one em DR session can be equivalent till

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Speaker 2: till about five talk therapy sessions in one of them,

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Speaker 2: and there was some research there they would be equivalent

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Speaker 2: to twelve talk therapy sessions, especially dealing with veterans of

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Speaker 2: a post traumatic stress disorder. Just kind of the relief

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Speaker 2: that you get out of one of those sessions. It

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Speaker 2: encourages clients to come up really with their own insights

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Speaker 2: and their own narratives, would without being prompted by the clinician.

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Speaker 2: If I fall and break my arm, they're going to

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Speaker 2: take me to the door. The doctor will set my

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Speaker 2: arm in a cast, and as long as it's supported,

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Speaker 2: our creator has given our body everything it needs to heal,

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Speaker 2: that bone will go back stronger than ever. EMDR is

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Speaker 2: kind of like taking the brain and setting it correctly

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Speaker 2: around what happened, and so then the thinking goes in

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Speaker 2: an area that's helpful and not an area that's maladaptive.

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Speaker 2: It sets it correctly, and the brain has the potential

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Speaker 2: to heal, just like any bone in our bodies, It

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Speaker 2: just has to be set correctly.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's a really powerful analogy, Kelly. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you mentioned and I would imagine I don't know

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Speaker 1: how early in a session this would happen. When you said,

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Speaker 1: if they could go back to that moment, like right

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Speaker 1: at the red light, they would be telling themselves you're

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Speaker 1: gonna be okay. I would imagine that doesn't happen in

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Speaker 1: like the first session when you are using EMDR.

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Speaker 2: And I will say this if I could digression us

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Speaker 2: a little bit. You know, in the first session, there's

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Speaker 2: a tool you can use with a EMDR called creating

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Speaker 2: a calm safe place. So by being bilaterally stimulated, you

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Speaker 2: help the client to create a place that is calm

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Speaker 2: and safe that's only for them, and you talk them

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Speaker 2: through moments of that using EMDR. So let's say, if

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Speaker 2: I ask them to go to the red light, if

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Speaker 2: that's too much for you, I will say, remember we

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Speaker 2: created the calm safe place. It just depends on the

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Speaker 2: amount of emotional resourcing a person has that a clinician

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Speaker 2: would have to assess to see if they are ready

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Speaker 2: for a quote unquote red light sceneman. So you're exactly right.

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Speaker 2: The assessment important It depends on the emotional resourcing of

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Speaker 2: somebody if they're equipped enough to be able to handle

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Speaker 2: a thing like that. So depending on the resourcing, they

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Speaker 2: could be ready during the first session and then maybe not.

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Speaker 2: But you get that in the history take it part

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Speaker 2: part of before you.

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Speaker 1: Start, Okay, So those assessment sessions really do more than

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Speaker 1: just get like the background of the trauma. They also

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Speaker 1: talk about like what the person has been doing to

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Speaker 1: cope with the trauma, like how ready are they for

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Speaker 1: this intense type of experience?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? Absolutely, you're exactly right. And sometimes certain medications will

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Speaker 2: affect how effective EMDR can be. You know, most of

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Speaker 2: the time Benzo's and opiates work against the whole process

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Speaker 2: because that's supposed to relax you. You're not supposed to be heightened.

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Speaker 2: But there are points of EMDR that can be very heightened.

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Speaker 2: And if you're on certain medications, you can't quite get

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Speaker 2: to where it is you need to be in order

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Speaker 2: for the process to even be worthwhile. Right, So I've

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Speaker 2: had people you know in the hospital that I work

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Speaker 2: with that I go back to the position, how far

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Speaker 2: can we cut back on this medication before we even

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Speaker 2: try this process, because you would hate to re traumatize somebody.

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Speaker 1: Right, So I want to go back to something that

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Speaker 1: you pointed out that I find really interesting. So you

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Speaker 1: mentioned that it's been your experience in some of your

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Speaker 1: EMDR work that one trauma will then unearth these other traumas.

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Speaker 1: So I'm curious how then you begin working with like

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Speaker 1: multiple traumas through the EMDR sessions.

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Speaker 2: It's a very good question, Joy. We ask for a

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Speaker 2: Suedge level based on a trauma, and SUGE s u

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Speaker 2: d s It stands for a subjective unit of distress.

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Speaker 2: And so when the scale of zero to ten will

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Speaker 2: say how bad when you think about this event today?

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Speaker 2: How bad it does it bother you? Ten it bothers

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Speaker 2: me a lot. Zero doesn't bother me at all personally.

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Speaker 2: If a SUGE is five or above, I feel like

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Speaker 2: that's active trauma and it's probably affecting your life today.

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Speaker 2: So the events that you know, if one trauma unearths

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Speaker 2: another one, I'll assess and I'll get a SUDGE level,

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Speaker 2: And if that distress level is high, then that's something

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Speaker 2: that we need to work on. We need to process

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Speaker 2: now something I do with my clients and my outpatient office.

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Speaker 2: I'll do what's called an envelope system. When I believe

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Speaker 2: that there are multiple traumas, and what that is is

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Speaker 2: I ask clients to get an index card. Just give

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Speaker 2: that event in your life a title, write that title down,

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Speaker 2: put it in an envelope, and seal it. We don't

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Speaker 2: open the envelope until you come in my office, so

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Speaker 2: that means I'm not ignoring it. I know exactly where

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Speaker 2: it is when it's time to deal with it. That's

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Speaker 2: when I take it to session. Because most people with

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Speaker 2: PTSD are very afraid with multiple traumas of losing control,

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Speaker 2: so sometimes the envelope system gives them a sense of control. Now,

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Speaker 2: each title that they name an event, I ask for

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Speaker 2: a sudge level and people can come to work on

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Speaker 2: a car wreck, but I'll look at a sudge level

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Speaker 2: that happened twelve years ago, and this thing is still

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Speaker 2: at a ten. It's like, Okay, WHOA, this holds a

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Speaker 2: lot of weight right now, and we start the processing

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Speaker 2: from that point.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, got you. So you mentioned that they would

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Speaker 1: hold it until they come to your office. Is there

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Speaker 1: a place that this is the EMDR not done in

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Speaker 1: your office.

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Speaker 2: It is done in my office. But the point that

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Speaker 2: I give people the assignment, you know, just to say

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Speaker 2: that I'm not ignoring it. I'm not forgetting it. I

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Speaker 2: wrote it down for Kelly. It's on my dresser. I

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Speaker 2: can't wait to take these to her office. I'm not

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Speaker 2: asking you to deal with it at home or talk

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Speaker 2: to your spouse or your kids about it. We got

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Speaker 2: it on paper, it's sealed and all of the EMDR.

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Speaker 2: You know that I do outpatient takes place in my

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Speaker 2: office unless I'm seeing patients in a hospital, but often

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Speaker 2: in my office if I'm working on one thing and

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Speaker 2: I assess that there several others, and that is the

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Speaker 2: case joy with a lot of African Americans, several others,

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Speaker 2: meaning a theme of traumatic experiences that stand out. They

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Speaker 2: really do favor and like the whole envelope system.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah, I can imagine that does feel a

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Speaker 1: little comforting, like they can kind of canted so to speak.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you mentioned you know that you found that,

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Speaker 1: particularly with African Americans, they find that comforting. And I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if there are any special considerations related to E

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Speaker 1: M d R when using with the with the black community.

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Speaker 2: Prior to getting to we want to do. Em DR

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Speaker 2: is convincing the African American community that what you're dealing

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Speaker 2: with is trauma and is PTSD. We ask people out

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Speaker 2: a lot of times, what's wrong with you? Or people

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Speaker 2: may ask what's wrong with me, when the correct question

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Speaker 2: is what happened to me? What happened to you? And

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Speaker 2: it's getting African Americans to understand the things that happened

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Speaker 2: to them, things that happened to us. Maybe they were

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Speaker 2: not healthy, and maybe they were not intended to be harmful,

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Speaker 2: but they were. So it's just kind of wrapping my

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Speaker 2: mind around that this really is an issue and this

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Speaker 2: is something that really has affected me. Once there's a

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Speaker 2: buy in that here's something that I need to work

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Speaker 2: on because a big part of it, too, Joe, is

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Speaker 2: establishing trust. And I have to earn my way, in

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Speaker 2: my opinion, especially with African Americans, into doing something like

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Speaker 2: emd R, because the first thing they ask, okay, is

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Speaker 2: this hypnosis? What does this mean? But earning my way

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Speaker 2: into that, but getting them to understand that what's going

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Speaker 2: on with me is unresolved trauma. The EMDR process then

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Speaker 2: becomes a little easier because it is a very spiritual

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Speaker 2: process and one thing I use with African Americans, they

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Speaker 2: are quick to go back to. For example, I asked them,

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Speaker 2: if you were sexually abused as a little girl, who

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Speaker 2: would you like to take back to help rescue that

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Speaker 2: little girl? Why the bilateral stimulation is going on. It's

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Speaker 2: very common for them to say, I want to take

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Speaker 2: God back, I want to take Jesus back, my big

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Speaker 2: Mama back, I want to take those So to allow

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Speaker 2: them to do that and for them to become tearful

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Speaker 2: around that in a good way, they buy into the

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Speaker 2: process a lot more. Or if I'm being clear on

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I know in some previous conversations before

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Speaker 1: we started recording, you talked about the fact that e

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Speaker 1: MDR can be really helpful because it allows you to

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Speaker 1: get to a place that sometimes words can't. And I

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Speaker 1: think that that would be particularly helpful for a lot

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Speaker 1: of black women because there does tend to be like

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Speaker 1: a guard there in wanting to share emotions. So if

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Speaker 1: we're getting at it in a different way, then it

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Speaker 1: kind of opens up the space for the words to follow.

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Speaker 2: You're exactly right, And here's the thing in doing when

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Speaker 2: you talk about unresolved trauma some of the events around

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Speaker 2: what happened to us can be really shaming. What I

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Speaker 2: like about EMDR is that it takes an element out

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Speaker 2: of it because as the clinician, I don't have to

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Speaker 2: know the details of what happened and how many times

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Speaker 2: and where you were, and that's not nearly as important

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Speaker 2: to me. What I'm looking for is that belief that

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Speaker 2: you have about yourself because of what happened. That's the

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Speaker 2: only thing I'm really concerned about, because that's really the

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Speaker 2: thing that's kind of reakin habit, this belief that you

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Speaker 2: have about yourself based on what happened. So EMDR helps

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Speaker 2: to go back and change that narrative realizing that I

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Speaker 2: was actually strong because I survived that, so I can

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Speaker 2: take off the layer that I'm unworthy and I'm not

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Speaker 2: good enough, so you look at the SuDS going down

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Speaker 2: that when I think about the situation now, I'm not

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Speaker 2: at a ten. I'm at about it two. It's things,

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Speaker 2: but I can handle it a whole lot better. And

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Speaker 2: when people come with sexual trauma, their fear is that

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Speaker 2: you're going to force me to talk about it. If

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Speaker 2: somebody wants to talk, I'm not going to shut them down.

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Speaker 2: But that's not the expectation.

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Speaker 1: So I can imagine in these sessions that you're bringing

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Speaker 1: up a lot. There's likely even if it didn't start

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Speaker 1: with emotion, there may be a lot of emotion kind

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Speaker 1: of coming out of it. So I'm wondering, like what

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Speaker 1: kinds of like homework or like what kinds of exercises

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Speaker 1: or grounding kinds of things go along with like the

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Speaker 1: that goes on in your office.

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Speaker 2: I do give the assignment of letter writing to the

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Speaker 2: part of you that endure that trauma. And the hope

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Speaker 2: is what I'm looking for is that the person that's

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Speaker 2: in my office or after the therapy, that we've invoked

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Speaker 2: a little bit more compassion, because it's amazing when we

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Speaker 2: come out of trauma, we're so upset with ourselves and

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Speaker 2: we beat ourselves up and expect ourselves to heal all

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Speaker 2: at the same time, and that just kind of doesn't work.

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Speaker 2: It exacerbates even more trauma. Actually, But the homework assignment

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Speaker 2: of definitely writing that letter and giving them permission to

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Speaker 2: talk from the space of the trauma, meaning what does

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Speaker 2: that eight year old liddle girl have to say today

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Speaker 2: to a forty year old oftentime eight year olds, thank

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Speaker 2: you for forgiving me, for realizing and it really wasn't

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Speaker 2: my fault. And that's where the grounding comes in after

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Speaker 2: the session is over and sometimes even during the session.

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Speaker 2: Every patient, every session is different, but not only grounding

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Speaker 2: the whole integration process of it. Integration meaning the d

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Speaker 2: and MDR we desensitize it. Let's take the sting out

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Speaker 2: because I did survive and I am okay. Now we're

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Speaker 2: going to reprocess this and realize just how strong I

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Speaker 2: actually was to even make it through that situation. So

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Speaker 2: the letter writing helps with that.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like you don't use like the bilateral

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Speaker 1: stimulation necessarily in every session. Like a lot of what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about is like narrative and like cognitive restructuring

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Speaker 1: in some ways. So it's exactly right. Okay, So there's

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Speaker 1: also a lot of like talking going on maybe with

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Speaker 1: in the sessions that don't involve the stimulation.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you are exactly right. The biledal stimulation with creating

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Speaker 2: the rim sleep. It helps to get through the painful

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Speaker 2: parts of the situation. Sometimes when I see a client

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Speaker 2: is really struggling or really tearful and clenching. As I said,

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Speaker 2: there are different speeds and various intensities on the tapers

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Speaker 2: that I use, So I'll turn them up just a

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Speaker 2: little in order to kind of make it over that,

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Speaker 2: you know, make it over that hump. And there are

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Speaker 2: times joy that I've turned them down and the client said, no,

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Speaker 2: turn it back up. I'm in this place. I want

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Speaker 2: to process that, I want to go ahead and get through.

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Speaker 2: But you're exactly right. The bilotal simulation is not necessarily

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Speaker 2: used through every setting, you know, every session regarding that.

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Speaker 1: More from my conversation with Kelly after the break. Have

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430
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433
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Speaker 1: and steps to take when it's time to end a friendship.

434
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,479
Speaker 1: We'll have lots to talk about this summer, and you

435
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: don't want to miss it. Pre Order your copy of

436
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: Sisterhood Heels right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. And

437
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: is there a part of this that that a client

438
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: would try to do at home? Like could a client

439
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: induce this for themselves?

440
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: Well? That's the first thing I say. Please, don't go

441
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 2: home taping.

442
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: On the body.

443
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 2: Go home and tell people close your eyes. Let me

444
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: sure you what I learned from telling. There are people

445
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: that can order their own tappers, but you have to

446
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: give a lot of paperwork into how much MD are

447
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 2: you've actually had. You know, another therapist has to know

448
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: that this is what you're doing. What I have encouraged

449
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 2: clients to do is to kind of create their own

450
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: tapping when I do the calm safe place element that

451
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: you could help to enhance a safe place for you.

452
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 2: And it's really not tapping, George, because we bilaterally stimulate

453
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 2: all the time. We rock side to side. That's what

454
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 2: that is, you know.

455
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 1: So you're talking about self soothing.

456
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 2: Absolutely, self soothing we sway. So that's the only thing

457
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: that I would encourage. But but not with tappers. And

458
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 2: if you know a lay person tried to order tappers,

459
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 2: now they have a lot of questions to ask you

460
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: before they send them to you. You have to have

461
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: a lot of proof of how much even MBR you've had.

462
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: And like I said, those type things, but self soothing,

463
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 2: you absolutely encourage that and I do that a lot.

464
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,479
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, so you've already talked a little bit about

465
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: how you see the suid scores go down between sessions,

466
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: but can you also talk about any other improvements that

467
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: you see kind of throughout the course of treatment with

468
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: EMBR Yes.

469
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 2: I think coming out of trauma, there are four behaviors

470
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: that that people lean to in order to in order

471
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: to survive. Fight, flight, freezing, a piece. You know. Fight

472
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: is that being angry and defensive. Flight a lot of

473
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 2: times is being suicidal. Drugs and alcohol. Most people that

474
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: are suicidal, I don't think they want to die. They

475
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 2: just want to stop hurting. People want to end their pain,

476
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: not their life. Drugs and alcohol is flight behavior. They

477
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 2: get drunk, they get high. You don't have to feel

478
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 2: any pain. Freeze it's just kind of numb. You're checked out.

479
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: And a piece is becoming that people pleaser to the

480
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 2: point of even being abused. Often those four behaviors they

481
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: try to take care of you. Coming out of EMDR

482
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: A lot of times people will realize I don't use

483
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 2: those behaviors as much as I used to, or am

484
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 2: using them now with the right people. So that's a

485
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: marker for me as a clinician that I look for.

486
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 2: What has your fight behavior looked like, your need to

487
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: please so that people won't hurt you or leave you?

488
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: What has that looked like? How are you gauging that?

489
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what I look for, just behaviorally. How

490
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: has therapy manifested therapy to me? The work is never

491
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: in your office, it's outside of your office. How does

492
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,239
Speaker 2: that enhance the quality of life? So that's exactly what

493
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: I look for, and have clients just report that back

494
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 2: to me, because unprocessed trauma just leaves you hyper vigilant.

495
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 2: You're waiting on that next hit to the point that

496
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: you sabotage it or you even cause it all in

497
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: an attempt to protect yourself, but it ends up causing

498
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 2: new traumas. If that's my calmed down and an embr

499
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: helps to calm that down, got you.

500
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: I was not aware of the appease reaction, Kelly. So

501
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: I've learned so much to just hear you talk, but

502
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: the appeased reaction was a new one for me. It

503
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: definitely helps to kind of bring to light some things

504
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: when we hear about people having repeated traumas. And the

505
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: point that you mentioned about ending up maybe in continuing

506
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: abusive relationships because maybe they are trying to appease, would

507
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: then lead to multiple traumas and joy.

508
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: That is the biggest one for African American women, Oh god,

509
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 2: that is the biggest one that appeased. And that apeace

510
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: behavior is or you want my money, my mind, my body,

511
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: what you want, whatever you want out do it. Just

512
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 2: don't leave me and just don't hurt me. You know,

513
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: that's the biggest one for us. And so one of

514
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: my new favorite quotes about that we set ourselves on

515
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: fire to keep other people warm, not realizing I am

516
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: now working on a new trauma because I'm just trying

517
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: to get them not to leave me and not to

518
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: hurt me. And it's survival. We know how to survive.

519
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: We don't know how to thrive. Yeah, you know, it's survival.

520
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: But for Black women that appease, we're either angry or

521
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 2: we are appeasing, two total opposite, you know, the polarities

522
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: between that I'm fighting angry or try my best to

523
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: please you, right, and all of that is surviving, try

524
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,479
Speaker 2: not to relive the impact of whatever that trauma was,

525
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: and then again working on new traumas and then mad

526
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: at myself because why do I keep going back to

527
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: this situation that doesn't benefit me, But I think all

528
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: of it is a part of just unresolved trauma, being

529
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: educated about this is what I'm doing and why.

530
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, those are very good points, Kelly. So what resources

531
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: can you give us for anybody who wants to maybe

532
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: learn more about E and D R. And I also

533
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: want you to maybe talk about like if somebody listens

534
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: to this episode and thinks, oh, that's something that I

535
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: really would like to try. Is there some kind of

536
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: like directory your national organization where people can find like

537
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: E M d R trained therapist.

538
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: Yes, there is www. Dot MDREA, E M d R

539
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: I a dot com or just google E M d

540
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: R and whoever you go to that's trained in E

541
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 2: M d R. They need to be a level two

542
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: train E M b R. That's the highest level that

543
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: you can go. But you want to be a level

544
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: two train E M d R. Level one is a

545
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: person that's getting trained that can do a little bit

546
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: of a con save place but not necessarily reprocessing the trauma.

547
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: So googling that you can find a level two train

548
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: M b R and any clinicians that that would like

549
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 2: to use it as a tool. I definitely think it's

550
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: beneficial because the foundational parts of E M d R.

551
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: Even if you don't do the bilateral stimulation, the foundational

552
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: component is very important to be able to do talk

553
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: therapy in my opinion, and that same information can be

554
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: found on the E M d R website. The same

555
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: information can be found, and the more you use it,

556
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: you kind of tweak it to get it to your

557
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 2: personality and the population of people that you use. The

558
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: more you use it with anything, the sharper you get

559
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: with being able to use it. It is definitely my

560
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: go to. I like using it a lot, very very effective.

561
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: Let me say this with children, very effective with children.

562
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: It doesn't take them a long time to process. The

563
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 2: reason is because they don't have a lot of memory,

564
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: so they go directly to what that event is. Most

565
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 2: of my adult patients often talk about how much better

566
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: they would be if they had gotten the therapy at twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen.

567
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 2: So many different decisions they probably would have made because

568
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: it would have been able to just kind of pluck

569
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: up that you know, that that template that's been so negative.

570
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: So it's very very very effective with the children as well.

571
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: So also any resources like for maybe clients who are

572
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: interested in learning more about like EMDR and how he

573
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: can be useful. Any like udios or books that you

574
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: really like.

575
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 2: I love France A. Shapiro was a founder of em DR,

576
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: So anything you read by Francin Shapiro, she was a

577
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: founder of EMDR. She discovered it in nineteen eighty nine.

578
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 2: She I'm so sorry, I can't think of the title,

579
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: but I think the body keeps the score is one

580
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: that the clinicians go to a lot. The unspoken voice

581
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: in an unspoken voice by doctor Peter Levine that he

582
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: talks about trauma. And I heard doctor Levine speak, if

583
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 2: I may say this joy at a trauma conference and

584
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 2: he showed pictures of the nine eleven building, nine eleven

585
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: when that happened in our country, and he kind of said,

586
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 2: you see the people in the pictures that are running,

587
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 2: that are moving, They're probably going to be okay. PTSD

588
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: in trauma is all about this feeling of being stuck.

589
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: So the MDR process helps to get you unstuck. That

590
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: makes sense, yes, little, you know, so I often think

591
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: about that because most people with PTSD and traumas it's

592
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: feeling a trap and So Peter Levine talks about that

593
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: a lot in his book in an unspoken voice of

594
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: what that looks like. But the body keeps the scores

595
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 2: probably one of the leading ones, and talking about just

596
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 2: trauma and PTSD and some of the benefits of VMVR okay,

597
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: and you know you can google and YouTube, you know,

598
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: message boards. Clinicians are doing some awesome things with it,

599
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: some awesome things with it. I mean it's almost a

600
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: grab bag of learning the foundational part of it first

601
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 2: and then tweaking it to your practice of what you're

602
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: willing to do. I think everybody needs to be trained

603
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: in it. But that's just me because it blows a

604
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: myth away that you got to be in therapy for

605
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: the rest of your life to work on trauma. People

606
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: think this has got to be years of therapy to

607
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: undo this stuff. That myth is gone. It goes away.

608
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: You don't have to work on it forever, you know,

609
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: six to eight sessions. That's kind of the you know

610
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: what I'm to do with clients, whether that's the bilott

611
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: of stimulation or not, but I definitely see a lot

612
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: of movement and EMDR helps you jumpstart that. Gotcha.

613
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: So Kelly I also want you to talk to us

614
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: more about your practice and where we can find you

615
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: online in any social media handles you want to share.

616
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 2: Okay. I am in Memphis, Tennessee. Love being in Memphis,

617
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 2: and I'm located in Midtown. My practice is the Mental

618
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: and Emotional Resource Center incorporated in me RCI Mercy. I've

619
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 2: been here since twenty eleven. Social media, I do have

620
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 2: a YouTube channel that's called Life Management with Kelly with

621
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 2: is the W and the slash and Kelly is k

622
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: e l I and I'm talking about my work in

623
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: trauma and PTSD on YouTube. I am contracted at the

624
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 2: local behavior Health hospital here in Memphis and the director

625
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 2: of grief and trauma therapy there. They've only had two

626
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: directors and the first one was there about nineteen years,

627
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: with her for five of those and when she left,

628
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 2: I'm number two. So most people if they see me

629
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 2: in the hospital, many of them will follow me outside

630
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: of the hospital. You know, in the city, I'm known

631
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 2: for my work with PTSD and trauma, so that's where

632
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 2: a lot of my referral sources. That's where they come from.

633
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: And as I said, I do this week in week

634
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: out with child in adolescent, whether it's in the hospital,

635
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 2: in my office geriatric adult. I use this skill a lot.

636
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: So sometimes people say, and this may sound arrogant, is

637
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 2: there anybody you know that as good as you with

638
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 2: this type therapy? And I often say, joy, there are

639
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: not many clinical clinicians in this city that have as

640
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: much experience as I have because I do it week

641
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: in and week out with various populations, and so the

642
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: more you do it, the sharper you get with it.

643
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 2: So I am a clinical supervisor now and to proved

644
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: clinical supervisor. I do have two supervisors that are trained

645
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: in trauma that are shadowing me at the hospital and

646
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: even in my practice, and I'm so excited with what

647
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: they will also be able to do with learning this

648
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 2: tooluse I can see everybody right right, I can't, but again,

649
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 2: I do enjoy it. So I'm found in Memphis. I

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00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: don't know if you want my website or.

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00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll be included in the show notes, which you

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00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: can share it now.

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00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 2: Okay. It is www dot Mercymmphis dot org that just

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00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 2: talks about how to get to me and things that

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00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: I've done in the community.

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00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of

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00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,919
Speaker 1: this information with us today. Kelly, I definitely, like I said,

658
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: learn quite a bit.

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00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, George, You're welch.

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00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Kelly was able to join me for

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00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: this conversation. To learn more about her and her work,

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00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com

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00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: SASH Session three oh seven, and don't forget to text

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00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: two of your girls and tell them to check out

665
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: the episode right now. If you're looking for a therapist area,

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00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot

667
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: com SASH directory. And if you want to continue digging

668
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: into this topic or just be in community with other sisters,

669
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.

670
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for

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00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy

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00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by FRIEDA.

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00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: Lucas and Elise Ellis and editing was done by Dennis

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00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,479
Speaker 1: and Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again

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00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with

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00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: you all real soon. Take good care. What have you heard?

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00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order

678
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: right now at Sisterhoodheels dot com. Grab your copy to

679
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 1: learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,

680
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to

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00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: take when it's time to end a friendship. We'll have

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00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want

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00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: to miss it. Pre Order your copy of Sisterhood Heels

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Speaker 1: right now at sisterhood Heels dot com