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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: Our stockholders have approved the ratification of the one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent performance based stock option award to Elon Musk that

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Speaker 2: was approved by stockholders at twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, it was a mutual love fest at the

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Speaker 1: Tesla shareholder meeting. Of course, Elon Musk loved the shareholders

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Speaker 1: for approving his massive compensation package of fifty six billion dollars.

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Speaker 3: I just want to start up by saying hot, damn.

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Speaker 3: I love you guys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And how could the shareholders not love a CEO

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Speaker 1: who offered a pie in the sky projection that Tesla

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Speaker 1: may one day make around one trillion dollars of profit

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Speaker 1: annually from a humanoid robot called the Optimists. That's not

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Speaker 1: even in production yet, but seventy two percent of Tesla's

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Speaker 1: shareholders approving the largest CEO pay package ever doesn't make

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Speaker 1: it so. Joining me is business law professor Eric Talley

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Speaker 1: of Columbia Law School, Eric, were you surprised that shareholders

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Speaker 1: voted in favor of resurrecting Musk's pay package from twenty eighteen?

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Speaker 2: I wasn't surprised with the outcome I think most people

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Speaker 2: thought that they probably were going to eke out a

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Speaker 2: victory on both of these proposed measures. Just the pay

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Speaker 2: package is one of two major ones. The other one

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Speaker 2: was reincorporating into Texas. I think I am a little

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Speaker 2: bit surprised by the by the margin of victory. You know,

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Speaker 2: back at when shareholders were first asked to approve you

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Speaker 2: Lawn Musk's pay package back in twenty eighteen, there were

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Speaker 2: no votes that passed at about seventy three percent. This

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Speaker 2: time it passed it almost exactly the same percentage. So

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Speaker 2: I was not really surprised at all at the outcome.

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Speaker 2: I was a little bit surprised that it wasn't a

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Speaker 2: little closer.

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Speaker 1: However, So was it a vote of confidence in Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk or a vote of fear that he would distance

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Speaker 1: himself from the company.

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Speaker 2: The answer to that question is yes to it probably

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Speaker 2: was a little bit about clearly, it's the case that

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Speaker 2: Tesla wanted this as a kind of a trophy vote

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Speaker 2: of confidence in not only in Elon Musk now, but

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Speaker 2: in Elon Musk back then and in the board back then.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's not clear and it probably won't be

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Speaker 2: clear for her some time whether this vote has any

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Speaker 2: effect on the legal holding about the permissibility of his

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Speaker 2: twenty eighteen pay package. But by the same token, it's

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Speaker 2: really hard to ignore if the stockholders, who now have

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Speaker 2: complete possession of all the information that the judge said

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Speaker 2: they didn't have, they go back even after he's rendered

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Speaker 2: these services, and say he deserves to get this pay package. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think Tesla and mister Musk want to

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Speaker 2: treat this as a strong vote of confidence, and I

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Speaker 2: think in some respect that's helpful to them. It's not

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Speaker 2: clear that it's going to flip the entire legal case.

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Speaker 2: It's a little late to come out to have a

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Speaker 2: big bearing on an opinion that starready been rendered, but

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Speaker 2: it could help them a little bit in an appeal.

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Speaker 2: It could help them on the attorney fees award. The

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Speaker 2: downside is the question of whether there were any other

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Speaker 2: defects in this vote.

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Speaker 1: When Delaware Chance Rey Court Judge Kathleen McCormick voided the

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Speaker 1: pay package early this year, she pointed to the board

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Speaker 1: of director conflicts of interest and the company's failure to

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Speaker 1: promptly disclose the terms of the plan. Wo this vote,

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Speaker 1: did Tesla make the proper disclosures.

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Speaker 2: The standard formula for getting a shareholder approval or a

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Speaker 2: shareholder ratification of something that involves the conflicts of interest

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Speaker 2: is to make sure that the shareholders when they vote,

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Speaker 2: they have all the information they need to have and

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Speaker 2: that they don't feel like they are voting with a

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Speaker 2: gun to their head or a metaphorical gun to their head.

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Speaker 2: And you know, with this second vote, TESLA basically threw

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Speaker 2: in everything but the kitchen sink in terms of the

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Speaker 2: disclosure to stockholders. They talked at length in their proxy

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Speaker 2: solicitation about the process that they didn't talk about in

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Speaker 2: the early one. They even appended the entire opinion from

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Speaker 2: Chancellor McCormick. So the question of whether stockholders were informed

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Speaker 2: at this time around, I think is not even a

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Speaker 2: close call. They were in some ways, if anything, they

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Speaker 2: were over informed. But the problem is that on some

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Speaker 2: level TESLA went at such length to concentrate on, you know,

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Speaker 2: the informed part of the vote. There was a cow

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Speaker 2: that got out of the barn a little bit on

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Speaker 2: the is a gun being held to your head? So

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Speaker 2: the other key criterion for a vote to kind of

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Speaker 2: have a legal effect is that it not be coerced,

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Speaker 2: and this turned out to be kind of a problem

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Speaker 2: that sort of metastasized a little bit leading up to

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Speaker 2: the vote, with mister Musk saying, you know, not only

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Speaker 2: will I be sorely disappointed and might even disengage from Tesla,

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Speaker 2: but I might just direct you know, AI and robotics

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Speaker 2: to something else. And in fact that went out and

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Speaker 2: I raised money on AIO and robotics through an independent

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Speaker 2: entity that I might or might not direct back into Tesla.

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Speaker 2: So that's a little bit more than just sort of

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Speaker 2: saying I might just disengage and quit. That's I might

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Speaker 2: take something or take a sort of actions to take

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Speaker 2: some business opportunity that you know, on some level is

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Speaker 2: very much the identity of Tesla. Right, So these are

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Speaker 2: effectively mobile data collecting computers. That's effectively what they're making

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Speaker 2: that also can transport you from place to place, and

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Speaker 2: to sort of say, hey, that's business opportunity, I may

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Speaker 2: you know, get so disillusioned that I'm just going to

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Speaker 2: divert that elsewhere. And that then becomes a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a problem because the question really is does this vote,

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Speaker 2: at least from a legal perspective, can we interpret it

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Speaker 2: as counting if the stockholders had a little fear as

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Speaker 2: to whether they were going to be able to say

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Speaker 2: no to you on muscle out kind of shooting themselves

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Speaker 2: in the foot. And so to the extent that Tesla

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Speaker 2: or mister Musk now will turn around and say to

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Speaker 2: either Chancellor McCormick or the Delaware Supreme Court, you need

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Speaker 2: to give this legal effect as kind of a replacement

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Speaker 2: stockholder vote. You know, there is an obvious challenge that

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Speaker 2: someone's who's resisting it. I put up and say, this

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Speaker 2: was a nice strong mandate, but it was exacted, you know,

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Speaker 2: under the shadow of a potential threat to do harm

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Speaker 2: to Tesla or at least to Tesla's future business prospects

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Speaker 2: if the vote didn't go mister Musk's way. You know,

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Speaker 2: from the standpoint of just optics, that sort of a

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Speaker 2: pr image of stockholders voting to approve of mister Musk,

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Speaker 2: it clearly has some utility. But there is kind of

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Speaker 2: this interesting question about whether the stockholders felt like they

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Speaker 2: had much of a choice other than to vote for

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Speaker 2: mister Musk.

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Speaker 1: But then there are the stockholders who seem infatuated with Musk,

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Speaker 1: part of the fan club that I'm sure would support

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Speaker 1: him no matter what.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty clear that several of stockholders really just are

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Speaker 2: part of the kind of an unflinching and infinitely faithful

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk PEP squad or something like that. But you know,

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Speaker 2: there are some others that probably are a little bit

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Speaker 2: more calculating in their approach, particularly in the years going forward,

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Speaker 2: and it's conceivable with some of those that are hat geez,

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Speaker 2: I don't really have to do. I want to get

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Speaker 2: on this guy's bad side, and it looks like he

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Speaker 2: might turn around and kneecap the company if he doesn't

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Speaker 2: get this vote, So I'm going to kind of hold

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Speaker 2: my nose and vote.

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Speaker 4: For this thing.

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Speaker 1: Will Chancellor McCormick now reopen the case and consider this

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Speaker 1: stockholder vote.

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Speaker 2: I think it would be really hard for her to

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Speaker 2: do that. Now the case has not reached the final order,

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Speaker 2: so it still would be possible for her to do it.

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Speaker 2: But the only literally the only thing left is the

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Speaker 2: argument that's going on right now about attorney's fees, and

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Speaker 2: so I could easily see this vote working its way

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Speaker 2: into that argument to basically say, hey, listen, Chancellor McCormick,

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Speaker 2: you have to award attorney's fees to the plane of

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Speaker 2: attorneys in ways that are somehow scaled to the benefit

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Speaker 2: that they have created for the company. The planeffs attorney said, hey,

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Speaker 2: canceling fifty six billion dollars worth of pay. That's value

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Speaker 2: that goes back to stockholders. So that was the value

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Speaker 2: we created for the companies who give us a fraction

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Speaker 2: of that. I certainly expect that the defendant Tesla and

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Speaker 2: mister Musk will say, hey, wait a second, but that

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Speaker 2: was such a great value that was created. Why did

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Speaker 2: these stockholders turn around and say, no, we really do

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Speaker 2: want to give it to them because we think that

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Speaker 2: it's in our best interest if he's made happy. Maybe

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Speaker 2: they didn't create fifty six billion dollars of value, because

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Speaker 2: you know, the stockholders kind of are all sort of

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Speaker 2: signing on to the idea that he really deserves this

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Speaker 2: money and they want to keep them happy. So I

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Speaker 2: think there might be at least one immediate use of

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Speaker 2: this vote as a way to say, your honor, you

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Speaker 2: shouldn't view the value that was created for the company.

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Speaker 2: Has the whole fifty six billion dollars, Because after all,

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Speaker 2: seventy three percent of our stockholders said we want to

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Speaker 2: give it to him anyway, we don't as a net

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Speaker 2: benefit from our perspective, And so that I think could

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Speaker 2: easily come up. Could they use it to go back

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Speaker 2: and say this undoes the infirmities and the vote that

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Speaker 2: occurred in twenty eighteen, that they might try. Chancellor McCormick herself,

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Speaker 2: in a late May ruling basically said to the attorneys,

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Speaker 2: you had your opportunity to reserve your rights to do

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Speaker 2: that now, and you're telling you you're not going to

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Speaker 2: do it. And if you then turn around and do

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Speaker 2: this because the vote goes in your favor, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to be irritated, to say the least that you And

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Speaker 2: so I think that that this will probably to the extent,

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Speaker 2: has effect with Chancellor McCormick. It's going to be in

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Speaker 2: the attorney feed perspective. But then they might try to

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Speaker 2: use the stockholder vote as a kind of a complementary

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Speaker 2: sort of occurrence to help them if they were to

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Speaker 2: make out an appeal to the Delaware Supreme Court. Right,

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Speaker 2: there are several grounds that they might try to appeal

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Speaker 2: the opinion, and it's not going to hurt to be

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Speaker 2: able to say, oh, and our stockholders agree he deserved

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Speaker 2: this this money, and therefore, or let's judge some of

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Speaker 2: the more inventive things in the opinion against this most

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Speaker 2: recent stockholder mandate.

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Speaker 1: And the stockholders also approve the move from Delaware to Texas.

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Speaker 1: Musk never wanted to let an opportunity to mock go by,

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Speaker 1: posted a picture of a cake that said Vox Popular

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Speaker 1: Vox Day and said, sending this cake to Delaware as

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Speaker 1: a parting gift. As far as the pay package, let's

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Speaker 1: start with that. Let's say he loses in on a

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Speaker 1: peel in Delaware, would Tesla have to start from the

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Speaker 1: very beginning to get the pay package for him in Texas.

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Speaker 2: So the answer to that question is going to be

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Speaker 2: an irritating It's not entirely clear to part of the

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Speaker 2: reason I've.

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Speaker 1: Get those a lot. I get those a lot.

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Speaker 2: It's a very loyally answer. You sort of say it depends,

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Speaker 2: ad buys you a few more minutes to think about

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Speaker 2: what an answer is. So here's the deal. It is

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Speaker 2: the case that now Tesla is a Texas Incorporated entity,

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Speaker 2: and therefore decisions that they make from today going fullward

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Speaker 2: are going to be judged under Texas law. Decisions that

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Speaker 2: were made when Tesla the Delaware company are judged under

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Speaker 2: Delaware law. So if they exhaust their appeals and they

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Speaker 2: aren't able to flip the outcome in a way that

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Speaker 2: they like, that doesn't preclude various measures that they might

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Speaker 2: take as a Texas company. So, for example, might they

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Speaker 2: say shareholders Delaware turned us away, that's why we came

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Speaker 2: to Texas. We would now like you to approve a

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Speaker 2: compensation package that is in retrospective that has made out

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Speaker 2: of gratitude to mister Musk for all the growth that

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Speaker 2: he put the company on. So we want you to

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Speaker 2: vote for it now. And if they vote for it

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Speaker 2: and approve it, I'm going to guess that someone's going

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Speaker 2: to come along to challenge it, and then it's going

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Speaker 2: to be suspected to Texas corporate law, which is a

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Speaker 2: body of corporate law that not a lot of people

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Speaker 2: knows much about and certainly has not confronted this type

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Speaker 2: of issue before. And to the extent that Texas has

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Speaker 2: had to deal with a bunch of executive compensation issues before,

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Speaker 2: it's not uncommon to see them citing to Delaware law

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Speaker 2: as instructive on how Texas.

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Speaker 1: Hold that thought. Eric coming up, we'll find out more

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Speaker 1: about the chances of the pay package going through and

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Speaker 1: some other legal problems Musk is facing. This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: Tesla investors offered votes of confidence in Elon Musk despite

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Speaker 1: a sales slump and falling stock price, reapproving Musk's record

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Speaker 1: breaking compensation package of fifty six billion dollars and approving

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Speaker 1: Tesla moving its legal home to Texas.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Tesla Shareholder medium, and I just want

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Speaker 3: to start up by saying, hot, damn, I love you guys. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we have the most awesome shareholder base. I mean, it's

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Speaker 3: just incredible. Any public company, it's incredible.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 1: The pay vote is only advisory and doesn't guarantee that

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Speaker 1: school get his stock options. A Delaware judge had voided

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Speaker 1: the payout in January. Tesla is expected to appeal if

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Speaker 1: that fails. Moving the company's in corporation to Texas allows

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Speaker 1: the board to revive the pay package in a new

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Speaker 1: state with potentially more favorable courts. I've been talking to

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Speaker 1: business law expert Eric Talley, a professor at Columbia Law School. Eric,

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Speaker 1: before the break, you were talking about how Texas courts

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Speaker 1: are just starting out in the world of business law.

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Speaker 2: There's all kinds of interesting questions about you know, is

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Speaker 2: this now a moment where Texas law under the austices

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Speaker 2: of a brand new business law court that it is

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Speaker 2: currently like literally trying to put together right now? Is

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Speaker 2: that gonna you know, is that going to yield a

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Speaker 2: kind of picking what we see in Delaware and answers

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Speaker 2: it might? Right, It may well be the case that

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Speaker 2: you know, Texas is going to try to brand itself

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Speaker 2: is the place where the Elon Musks of the world

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Speaker 2: want to incorporate, because we're not going to, you know,

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Speaker 2: let irritating things like investor protection and shareholder votes stand

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Speaker 2: in the way of getting what you want to get

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Speaker 2: if you're an iconic clastic you know, founder or CEO

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Speaker 2: of the company. So it may be that Texas just decides, Okay,

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Speaker 2: this is our chance to author a law that is

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Speaker 2: going to stake out somewhere on the spectrum on how

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Speaker 2: protective of investors we're going to be, versus how solicitous

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Speaker 2: of CEOs and boards we're going to be, and we're

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Speaker 2: just going to stake out something that is a little

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Speaker 2: bit more friendly to the Elon Musks of the world.

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Speaker 2: Than Delaware has. It's interesting they know though, that there

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Speaker 2: are a lot of people who are over the years

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Speaker 2: criticize Delaware for being too friendly to the CEO and

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Speaker 2: board of director types, and so Texas would be going

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Speaker 2: even further. It wouldn't be the only state that did

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Speaker 2: it right. Nevada famously has tried to make a push

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Speaker 2: in this direction as well. And you know, you could

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Speaker 2: imagine that if Texas law does go in that direction,

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Speaker 2: it could potentially attract other companies to Texas. Now whether

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Speaker 2: it succeeds in doing that or not is another question, right.

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Speaker 2: The fact of the matter is, you know, if you're

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Speaker 2: an all reformed company, it's really nice, if you're the

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Speaker 2: CEO or the board not to be subjected to a

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Speaker 2: bunch of you know, what you might view as pesky,

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Speaker 2: you know, shareholder litigation complaints. But by the same token,

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Speaker 2: if you back up a stage to the point where

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Speaker 2: you are raising money from people saying please invest in

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Speaker 2: the company, and we want to make a credible promise

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Speaker 2: to you that we're not going to, you know, misuse

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Speaker 2: your funds, spirit them away, use them for our own

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Speaker 2: private alliances, or some other company we are in control of.

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Speaker 2: It's sometimes good to be able to say, hey, we're

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Speaker 2: incorporated in a state that won't let us do that.

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Speaker 2: And so if Texas were to stake out a much

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Speaker 2: more permissive ground to let CEOs and boards do whatever

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Speaker 2: they want, does it then kind of, ironically enough, make

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Speaker 2: it harder for those same CEOs and boards to get

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Speaker 2: people to partners with their money at the point of

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Speaker 2: investing in the company, because they know they're not going

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Speaker 2: to have as many protections down the road.

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Speaker 1: I don't think Musk is thinking about that aspect of it.

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Speaker 1: He's just thinking Delaware has been so hard on me,

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Speaker 1: and Texas might be different, especially because my company is here.

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Speaker 1: And of course in other areas Texas judges have been

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Speaker 1: known to depart from the strict rule of law, shall

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Speaker 1: we say, so, maybe the judges there will be a

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Speaker 1: little easier on him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a good chance that they will.

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Speaker 2: And you know, one of the things that will be

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Speaker 2: interesting to see play out is not only this sort

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Speaker 2: of question of whether the iconoclast like Musk want to

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Speaker 2: reincorporate in Texas, so whether some of the more hum

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Speaker 2: drum CEOs you would want to do that as well. Right,

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Speaker 2: the thing that's definitely special about mister Musk is that

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Speaker 2: he can sort of push to pay himself a very

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Speaker 2: very large chunk of the company's value and still have

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Speaker 2: folks who are basically unflinching in their loyalty to him

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Speaker 2: within the stockholder base. That's generally not true for almost

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Speaker 2: all other CEOs out there. They don't have, you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of an almost religious following amongst people, so it's

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Speaker 2: going to be a harder sell, it seems to me,

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Speaker 2: for lightly less superstar like CEOs to convince their stockholders

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Speaker 2: that moving to Texas is going to be great for everyone.

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Speaker 2: But I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Texas, now having

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Speaker 2: been handed one of the biggest companies in the world,

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Speaker 2: has a company to be in its charge at a

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Speaker 2: point when it's now trying to redefine its own business law,

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Speaker 2: might end up crafting that business law in a way

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Speaker 2: that's a little bit more friendly to what mister Musk

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Speaker 2: has already experienced in Delaware, even though a lot of

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Speaker 2: that was pretty consistent with decade law Delaware law.

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Speaker 1: Speaking about some Tesla's shareholders unflinching loyalty to Musk no

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Speaker 1: matter what he does, will that be tested by a

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Speaker 1: lawsuit that was filed last week. Musk and SpaceX were

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Speaker 1: sued by eight former SpaceX workers accusing Musk of overseeing

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Speaker 1: a pervasively sexist culture and animal house environment, and The

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Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal reported last week that he had had

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Speaker 1: sex with an employee who directly reported him and a

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Speaker 1: college intern, and asked a woman at his company to

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Speaker 1: have his babies. So now it's a lawsuit, and when

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Speaker 1: one suit is filed, often others follow, as you know,

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Speaker 1: so one wonders if he'll be held accountable in some way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, listen, there's a small allegory from the

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Speaker 2: old West, right, which was you can seem invincible in

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Speaker 2: a gunfight until you're suddenly not. And so you never

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Speaker 2: know when like sort of the end of the you know,

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Speaker 2: sort of the benighted, you know, sort of lucky streak

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Speaker 2: is going to happen, and for all we know, it

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Speaker 2: may go on for several years. But realize that, you know,

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Speaker 2: some of these allegations do not center themselves in Delaware

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Speaker 2: corporate law. They're like federal type of claims. You don't

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Speaker 2: you know, you don't get to escape them simply by

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Speaker 2: reincorporating in Texas or Nevada or even outside of the US,

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Speaker 2: because they apply to where are you doing your business?

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Speaker 2: And much of that, if not all of it, most

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Speaker 2: of it, I guess, is in the US. So in

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Speaker 2: some ways, the recent events, and you know we might

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Speaker 2: see more as well, well, you know, are going to

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Speaker 2: at least stress test the cult of personalities and the

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Speaker 2: and the attachment that much of mister Musk's sort of

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Speaker 2: army seems to unfailingly have towards him. At the point

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Speaker 2: the gold plating may may wear off of that, and

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Speaker 2: when that happens it is almost always difficult to predict,

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Speaker 2: but it can and it can happen relatively quickly, So

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Speaker 2: you know, there is a sense, by the way, and

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Speaker 2: in fairness to mister buss Buck, he's you know, essentially

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Speaker 2: put himself out there as a very visible person on

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Speaker 2: some set you know, of of measures. I guess he's

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Speaker 2: willing to be judged by his track record, but you know,

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Speaker 2: some of these events are also part of his track record,

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Speaker 2: and so are they going to you know, sort of

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Speaker 2: die down over time? Who knows. They certainly don't give

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Speaker 2: one the flavor of thinking that you know, these alleged

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Speaker 2: transgressions are all you know, far and into the background,

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Speaker 2: and so it will be I think an ongoing at

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Speaker 2: least backstage drama, if not front of stage drama over

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Speaker 2: the next couple of years. And you know, we'll see

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Speaker 2: how test the weather's the storm. He's been remarkably resilient,

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Speaker 2: not only in the business community, but also you know,

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Speaker 2: on the regulatory and legal side of being able to

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Speaker 2: send off these challenges. But like I said, the worm

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Speaker 2: can turn quickly in these situations as well.

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Speaker 1: To put in legal terms, you mentioned Musk being able

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Speaker 1: to fend off regulatory problems. Musk announced the successful vote

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Speaker 1: the day before the official announcement by the company. Would

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Speaker 1: the SEC see that is a problem.

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Speaker 2: There was an interesting thing. You hardly ever see this

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Speaker 2: when you've got proxy votes coming in. And so there

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Speaker 2: are some people who will just wait until the shareholder

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Speaker 2: meeting to vote their shares. But some people who basically say,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to give my proxy over, maybe

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Speaker 2: even to the CEO or a member of the board,

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Speaker 2: and this is how I want them to vote my

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Speaker 2: shares and so, and that's typically what will happen in

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Speaker 2: some of these circumstances. So you know, members of the

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Speaker 2: board and Elon Musk had a lot of these proxy

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Speaker 2: votes already in their possession, and he posted before the

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Speaker 2: stockholder meeting that they had already passed the threshold on

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Speaker 2: both of these initiatives to gain a stockholder mandate under

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Speaker 2: each of them. And there's kind of an interesting question

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Speaker 2: about whether that itself is problematic. You never see it

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Speaker 2: occur that you Usually, you know, you wait until the

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Speaker 2: you know, all of the live votes are tallied up,

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Speaker 2: and then you try to figure out who won. And

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Speaker 2: usually you kind of know who won before the live

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Speaker 2: votes are callied up, but as a as a general norm,

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Speaker 2: you don't make the announcement ahead of time. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of like the controversy we saw years ago with you know,

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Speaker 2: exit polls right where you know, the press would go

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Speaker 2: out and they take exit polls the people who vote

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Speaker 2: early in the day, and then it would discourage people

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Speaker 2: from showing up later in the day because they already

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Speaker 2: dow the outcome or they thought they knew the outcome

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Speaker 2: of the vote. So you would this have changed the outcome?

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Speaker 2: Probably not. Might some federal regulators be interested in whether

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Speaker 2: this was a type of a manipulation of the proxy rules.

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Speaker 2: I expect they're looking at it. I don't know how

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Speaker 2: much is going to come out of it. But the

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Speaker 2: last thing that's kind of interesting, and we talked about

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Speaker 2: this earlier, you know, at the very beginning. The first

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Speaker 2: question you asked me is that you surprised at the outcome.

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Speaker 2: And I said, well, I'm surprised at the margin of

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Speaker 2: victory here, and they're you know, pre announcing, oh yes,

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Speaker 2: we're already over the threshold. There's nothing that can change

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Speaker 2: the outcome of this vote. Might that have actually caused

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Speaker 2: this margin itself to go up? Right? Might it be

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Speaker 2: that some people who are going to vote know when

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Speaker 2: they thought that, you know, oh this is going to

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Speaker 2: be a close call, I'm going to show up a vote.

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Speaker 2: Now they just don't show up, or they show up,

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Speaker 2: but they say, I'll go ahead and vote for it

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Speaker 2: because they can't affect it anyway. So I might as well,

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Speaker 2: you know, add to the mandate. And to the extent

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Speaker 2: that that's true, and to the extent that Tesla's going

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Speaker 2: to depend on the size of this mandate as being

435
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 2: something that signals a strong message from stockholders, it's not

436
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 2: obviously in their interests who have leaked the ultimate outcome

437
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 2: the night before the actual stockholders meeting and there thereby

438
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 2: possibly hitting up more of a mandate than they would

439
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 2: have gotten otherwise. And so you could imagine that coming

440
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: into play particularly, and you know, maybe softer questions of

441
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 2: how should we interpret the size of this margin of victory?

442
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 2: Was it a margin of victory that itself was subject

443
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 2: to some degree of manipulation?

444
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 1: And where was his Twitter sitter? One might ask, thanks

445
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: so much?

446
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 4: Eric.

447
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 1: That's Columbia business law professor Eric Tally. Coming up next

448
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg Lan Show the trial of exiled Chinese

449
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: tycoon Miles Quo for swindling investors out of one billion

450
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: dollars and oh the luxury lifestyle prosecutors say he bought

451
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 1: with that. I'm June Grasso and this is Bloomberg.

452
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 4: Welcome to an undisclosed location in Texas. Miles. It's a

453
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 4: pleasure to have you here. Nice. Yeah, well, we met before.

454
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,959
Speaker 4: I become friends quickly me too. We share some similar

455
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 4: views and come from very different angles, but we're going

456
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 4: to have a great time today.

457
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 1: Four years ago, hedge fund manager Kyle Bass interviewed exiled

458
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: Chinese tycoon Miles Gwo, now bass may be a witness

459
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 1: against Quoh at his fraud and racketeering trial in a

460
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 1: disclosed location Federal court in Manhattan. Prosecutors accused Guo of

461
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: swindling more than one billion dollars from investors by tricking

462
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: them into funding four bogus schemes and then spending the

463
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: money on lavish gifts for himself and his family. We're

464
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 1: talking about a twenty six million dollar New Jersey mansion,

465
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: a thirty seven million dollar yacht, a four million dollar Lamborghini,

466
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: a sixty thousand dollars TV, and a thirty five thousand

467
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: dollars mattress, to name a few. The defense says that

468
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: Guo lived that lifestyle long before he was alleged to

469
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: have committed these crimes, and that being shallow or rich

470
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: does not make you a criminal. Guo now resides at

471
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: Brooklyn's Metropolitan Detention Center, quite a step down from his

472
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 1: sixty eight million dollar pantouse and the sharing Netherlands hotel.

473
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: Joining me is Ava Benni Morrison, who's covering the trial.

474
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: Ava tell us about Miles Guo, who's also known as Guo.

475
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 5: Wee Gue Miles Glow is a tycoon from China who

476
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 5: has been living in exile in the US since about

477
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 5: twenty fifteen. Since then, he has built a really strong

478
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 5: following online denouncing the Chinese Communist Party the CCP, and

479
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 5: through that he's been able to encourage a lot of

480
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 5: his followers to make sizable investments in a few different

481
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 5: investment opportunities he was touting from crypto to farm to

482
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 5: loan programs, and even his own social media platform. When

483
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 5: he was arrested last year in New York, he was

484
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 5: living in the famous Sharry Netherland Hotel overlooking Central Park

485
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 5: from the Upper East Side. His lawyers in his trial,

486
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 5: which has been going on the past few weeks here

487
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 5: in Lower Manhattan, have tried to stress the jury that

488
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 5: just because he's richer and he likes to find a

489
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 5: things in life doesn't mean he's afordser They've said that

490
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 5: he grew up in a really wealthy family of real

491
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 5: estate developers in China, and he's always been used to

492
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 5: having nice things, and this didn't happen because he was

493
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 5: swindling people out of money.

494
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 1: What's the government accusing him of?

495
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 5: So, Malclow is accused of ripping off investors to the

496
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 5: Junels one billion dollars, and he allegedly did this by

497
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 5: encouraging a lot of his online followers to invest money

498
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 5: in a few different investment opportunities that he had going on.

499
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 5: One of them was a social media platform called GTV,

500
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 5: another was a crypto ecosphere called the Himalaya Exchange, and

501
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 5: another one was a farm to loan program. In one

502
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 5: of the cases, he allegedly took one hundred million dollars

503
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 5: worth of investors' money and put it towards a hedge

504
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 5: fund to bet again the Hong Kong dollar, which unfortunately

505
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,719
Speaker 5: for him, failed. And he is also accused of spending

506
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 5: a lot of his victims' money on very very nice things.

507
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 5: We're talking a twenty six million dollar mentioned in New Jersey,

508
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 5: a thirty seven million dollars super yocht, a Ferrari, a

509
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 5: thirty five thousand dollars mattress as well, and.

510
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: My favorites the Bugatti and the Lamborghini, plus the sixty

511
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: thousand dollars TV. So is the defense saying he got

512
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: this money from family funds or he earned it. Where

513
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: did it come from?

514
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 5: We haven't had a look at the defense case yet

515
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 5: because the prosecution is still going, but from the outset

516
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 5: from the defense opening at the start of a trial,

517
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 5: they have said that he's always been rich in his

518
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 5: whole life, and he has access to a tremendous amount

519
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 5: of wealth. The prosecution has combated that and said, well

520
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 5: before he was arrested, authorities in Hong Kong and China

521
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 5: had actually seized his assets, and they say that's why

522
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 5: he was cashed for and he was looking for more

523
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 5: funding to keep his extraordinary lifestyle going. So there's two

524
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 5: sort of contrasting pictures being presented here in front of

525
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 5: the jury.

526
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: And does he have political asylum here?

527
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 5: He applied for a political asylum after moving to the

528
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 5: US in twenty fifteen. His lawyers have told the jury

529
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 5: that he is the subject of an inter Paul read

530
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 5: notice by the Chinese government, so he can't go back

531
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 5: to China otherwise he'll be arrested. They've also said that

532
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 5: the Chinese government has targeted his wife and his child.

533
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 5: They've hacked his computers, his bank accounts, his cell phones,

534
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 5: and they've tried to portray the picture of a man

535
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 5: who is brave and courageous in going up against the

536
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 5: CCP and uniting all of these people who want to

537
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 5: push back against what they see as a pretty aggressive

538
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 5: regime in China.

539
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: And in reading your story, I remembered where I heard

540
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: his name before. He has connections to Steve Bannon and Maga.

541
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 5: Yes. One of the interesting parts of this trial has

542
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 5: been seeing the people that Miles Glow surrounds himself with.

543
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 5: He was quite close with Donald Trump's former advisor Steve Bannon.

544
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 5: When Bannon was arrested himself a few years ago, he

545
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 5: was actually on board Milesglow's supiot off the coast of Connecticut.

546
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 5: Milesgow also had a professional relationship with hedge fund manager

547
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 5: Kyle Bass, who may or may not sufy at this trial.

548
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 5: We're waiting to see whether he pops up at some point.

549
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 5: And every day when Miles Glow appears in court, there

550
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 5: must be three to four dozen people all crammed into

551
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 5: the courtroom in support of him. During the breaks, he'll

552
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 5: turn around and he'll waive at the people that are

553
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 5: sitting in the public gallery and smile and giggle at them.

554
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 5: So he's certainly got an entourage that turns out to

555
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 5: support him every single day.

556
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: So the judge has taken the really unusual step of

557
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: ordering that the jury be anonymous.

558
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 5: Yes, while Mosglow has all of these supporters, there have

559
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 5: been a handful of them who have been quite vocal

560
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 5: and at times protesting outside of the courthouse, holding signs,

561
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 5: yelling things at witnesses as they walk outside. So Judge

562
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 5: has taken the unusual step of ordering that the jury

563
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 5: in this trial be escorted to and from the courthouse

564
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 5: every single day. They use a different elevator in the

565
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 5: building to what the general public uses. And Mosglow has

566
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 5: argued that yes, that's necessary because he is a target

567
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 5: of PHYSICDP and therefore they should be protected. But the

568
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 5: prosecution says, you have these very passionate and loyal supporters

569
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 5: who have been acting out at some of the prior

570
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 5: court appearances, and the jury needs to be protected from

571
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 5: any other further instances like that.

572
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: And avor part of his persona was as a fierce

573
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: critic of the Chinese Communist Party.

574
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 5: Definitely, that's definitely the heart of this case that he

575
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 5: was this self pres claim crusader against the CCP and

576
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 5: the CCP regime. But at the same time he was

577
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 5: using that platform and the support base that he had

578
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 5: amassed to commit this fraud and to swindle people out

579
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 5: of more than a billion dollars. When I've been sitting

580
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 5: in court and listening to one or two victims who

581
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 5: were really attracted to Miles Grows huff stands against the CCP.

582
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 5: They said that they were watching his online videos, his

583
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 5: YouTube sermons, and they just became really fascinated with him

584
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 5: and then ended up investing money with him because they

585
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 5: trusted him. I heard from one woman the other day

586
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 5: on the stand who described him as a liar, someone

587
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 5: who can't be trusted, who is a cheetah. And when

588
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 5: she was giving that testimony, I could hear some of

589
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 5: the people that were sitting behind me sniggering. So I

590
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 5: think that he does have this really like strong support

591
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 5: base and people who may not have lost money, like

592
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 5: some of the witnesses who were tested buying against him.

593
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: Now, his former chief of staff Isvette Wang, pleaded guilty

594
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: on May third. Do you know if she's going to

595
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: testify against him.

596
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 5: I'm not sure, Actually I don't. I don't think so

597
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 5: because she didn't have a cooperation agreement, and.

598
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: Are most of the witnesses who've testified so far investors

599
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: or others.

600
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's been a real mix of people who have

601
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 5: testified so far. We've heard from investors who gravitated towards

602
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 5: Milesgow after watching his online videos. One woman invested about

603
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 5: fifteen thousand dollars and she lost all that, which was

604
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 5: a big amount for her. We've heard people who worked

605
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 5: for some of Milesglow's companies, including someone who was working

606
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 5: at Citybank and handling his company's business accounts before he

607
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 5: actually left that job and joined one of Milesbrow's companies

608
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 5: during the pandemic. We've even heard from a Ferrari dealer

609
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 5: who was talking about a very explosive sports car of

610
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 5: which there's only forty maid in the world, that Milesgow

611
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 5: allegedly brought for millions of dollars in twenty twenty one.

612
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 5: So it's been a real mix of people who testifying

613
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 5: on behalf of the prosecution.

614
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had some very nice cars there. Prosecutors have

615
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: sought the forfeiture of the mansion, the yacht bank accounts,

616
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: a Bugatti, a Lamborghini, and a Rolls.

617
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 5: Royce, Yes exactly. And one of the FBI agents who

618
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 5: was testifying early on in the trial actually talking about

619
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 5: when she was at the house during the search warrant

620
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 5: at Milesglow's house, and I was mentioned of Italian suits

621
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 5: hanging up in the wardrobe and ridiculously expensive car parked

622
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 5: in the driveway, documents with a super yacht. So yeah,

623
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 5: he certainly lacks the final.

624
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: Things the MT His wife and daughter live in Connecticut,

625
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: but he's being held in lock up.

626
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 5: Yes, his wife and daughter live in Connecticut, but Miles

627
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 5: Glow is currently in custody at the MDC in Brooklyn.

628
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 5: He's been there since he was arrested in early twenty

629
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 5: twenty three.

630
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: Could he be deported to China? Do you know if

631
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: that's part of it?

632
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 5: As a non US citizen, that's always the risk when

633
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 5: you're arrested and charge of the felony. If you're convicted,

634
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 5: there is a real likelihood that you will be sent

635
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 5: back to the country of your citizenship. So that could

636
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 5: certainly happen here. And if there is that red interpomotice

637
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 5: out for him, like his lawyer argues, he could be

638
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 5: facing a whole other judicial process over there.

639
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: Does he speak English or is the whole trial being

640
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: translated for him?

641
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 5: He does speak some English, but it's quite basic from

642
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 5: what I understand he has He does speak some English,

643
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 5: but it's limited. He has a few translators in court

644
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 5: every day, and his wearing headphones and the translators that

645
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 5: are obviously listening to what the witness is saying, what

646
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 5: the judge is saying, and the lawyers, and then it's

647
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 5: been translated to him in real time through the headphones

648
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 5: that he's wearing.

649
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: And how long is the prosecution's case expected to take.

650
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 5: It's been going for four weeks now and it was

651
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 5: only about halfway through as of last week, so we

652
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 5: expect to see a couple more weeks of the prosecution

653
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 5: case and then we'll hear from the defense. The judge

654
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Speaker 5: expressed some concern this week that the prosecution was taking

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Speaker 5: so long, and as she's decided that the trial is

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Speaker 5: going to sit for a couple more extra hours each

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Speaker 5: day this week, so the prosecution can really make some headway.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be so interesting to see who the

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Speaker 1: witnesses are for the defense. And I know you'll be there, Ava,

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Ava Benny Morrison,

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Speaker 1: and that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Remember you've been always get the latest legal news by

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Speaker 1: subscribing and listening to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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Speaker 1: and at bloomberg dot com podcast slash Law. I'm June

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Speaker 1: Grosso and this is Bloomberg