WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - July 5th, 2024 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:06.800 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:12.760 This is Bloomberg business Week Inside from the reporters and 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:16.520 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:20.760 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:25.720 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.920 Hi, everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.720 It's a holiday weekend thanks to the July fourth holiday. 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:36.600 Many may be finding themselves on the beach, up in 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.640 the mountains, in a nearby park, or sitting on their 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:41.440 front stupid some time on their hands. 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.200 So with that in mind, here's our team summer reading list, 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.640 in no particular order, and including books from a Nobel 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.559 laureate and a former witch on Wall Street to one 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.960 about selling the high Seas alone, to the journalist who's 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.000 keeping track of those who break barriers later in life. 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:01.120 We begin with our team's pick by Nobel Laurie. Joseph Stieglitz, 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.680 Professor of economics at Columbia University. He was Chairman of 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.680 the Council of Economic Advisors under President Clinton and a 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:09.600 former Chief Economist of the World Bank. 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.399 He's written many books, authored numerous research papers on many 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:17.240 aspects of economics, equality, and more. His latest subject matter 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:19.759 is covered in a new book. It's called The Road 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.720 to Freedom, Economics and the Good Society. Our conversation began 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.479 with the Fed's commitment to that two percent inflation objective 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.080 and whether a little above actually makes much of a difference. 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.240 We spoke to Professor Stieglitz in late April. 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:36.640 From the point of view of economics, having two and 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.160 a half or even three percent inflation is not a 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:43.320 big deal. You know, the two percent target was pulled 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:46.320 out of thin air. It was not based on economic science. 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:48.840 What we want to be sure of is that we 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.880 don't have runaway inflation. And inflation has clearly been tamed, 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:55.800 it's been brought down, it's stable at lecture, wakes from 0:01:55.840 --> 0:02:00.880 month to month, but it is not as your problem. 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:05.360 We should be focusing on other things, continuing economic growth, 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:11.200 making sure that all Americans share in that growth. Those 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:13.079 are the kinds of things that we ought to be 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:14.480 thinking more about. 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.720 So, Professor Stieglitz, should the FED abandon the two percent 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.040 inflation goal? Should they have a different inflation goal, a 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.400 different metric that they should be held accountable to. 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:25.760 Yes, I think they should. 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:29.120 I think they should be talking about keeping within a 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.760 range to maybe three three and a half four percent. 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:38.120 You know, there's actually some economic science that says, especially 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.639 in a time of major structural change such as we're 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:47.680 going through, having a little higher inflation actually is helpful 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:53.440 in reallocating resources in the presence of downward nominal rigidities 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:58.760 of wages, because what guides the movement of resources from 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:02.840 one place to another is relative wages, and if some 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:07.000 wages are sticky downward, you want other wages to go 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.840 up enough to move labor, and that means you're going 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.320 to have to have more inflation. So actually a little 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.000 higher inflation is actually good for the economy. 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:21.399 Do you think the FEDS management of the economy has 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.560 been a good one in terms of policy? 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.959 Quite? Frankly, no, put it bluntly. 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:33.320 Let's go back to when inflation broke out after the 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:38.080 pandemic and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The question was 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:42.160 what was the cause, the primary cause of the inflation. 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:43.360 It was unambiguous. 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:48.800 It was the pandemic and war related interruptions in supply 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:53.760 chains and rising prices caused by shortages of oil and food. 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.360 It was demand shifts. People wanted to live in different places, 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:02.120 and that meant housing prices went up where there was 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.800 a scarcity, but it didn't go down as much where 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:09.320 there was where people didn't want to live in parts 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:14.880 of New York, raising interest rates actually impedes the ability 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.480 of the economy to respond to that kind of. 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:23.360 Structural to that kind of challenge. 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.520 We needed to build more houses in the places where 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:33.480 there was a scarcity, and having higher interest rates actually 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:38.760 works makes it more difficulty. They also have a model 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.520 of the economy that's based on competition. That might have 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:45.160 been true some time ago, but we have an economy 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:49.240 with a lot of market power at firms are trading off. 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.679 If they raise their prices, they get more profits today, 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:57.760 they lose profits in the future, and in that trade off, 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.719 when you raise the interest rate, they value those future 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:04.480 losses less and they're induced to raise their prices more. 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:09.479 So margins go up, and a marked aspect of the 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:13.479 inflation that we've just been through is that markets have 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:14.920 increased enormously. 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.960 Hey, Professor Stieglitz, I just wanted to speaking of the FED, Carol, 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:20.000 I know you would a. 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.640 Well, one one thing before we have a bigger broader question, 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:24.800 and it's certainly been a bigger to jump in on that. Well, 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.080 what do you think then we should be cutting rates already, 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:28.479 that we're behind the curve right now. 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.280 Yes, I think I think the risks are asymmetric. I 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:38.440 think with Europe already slowing down in recession, we don't 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.760 know where China is going to be going. I think 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:46.800 uh proudents would have us uh going back to a 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:51.960 more normal infrast rate. The higher interest rates are are 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:53.839 really not going to be taming inflation. 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:55.279 That that model was wrong. 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.240 In another way, they dramatically had said that we're going 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.520 to need five percent of inflation for five percent unemployment 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.200 for some time in order to get inflation down. 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:05.560 They were absolutely wrong. 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.760 We got inflation down where in a period where we 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:14.800 kept unemployment relatively low, So they are analysis of the 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:19.279 economy was just off. And meanwhile they have put at 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:23.520 risk our banking system. We had a problem in Selicom 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.320 Valley Bank partly because of the enormous changes in terms 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:32.120 structure which their policies led to. And we're facing a 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:35.040 debt crisis in the developing countries and emerging markets. 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:41.760 So there's enormous one sided risk. I believe in the 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:43.560 policies that they've been pursuing. 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:45.800 Well on the FED, Professor Stieglitz, I got to ask 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.120 you about this Wall Street Journal report that broke last 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.280 night that said how former Trump administration officials are coming 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.839 up with plans to take on the independence of the 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.800 Federal Reserve essentially at one end of the spectrum, even 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:01.080 allowing if President Trump gets re elect him to weigh 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:04.080 in on FED policy when it comes to interest rates. 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:06.840 Talk a little bit about your reaction to if this 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.160 were to come to fruition, how important the independence of 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:12.680 the FED is and if that would really put at 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:16.640 risk the model of the independence of the US financial system. 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:22.680 Well, I think Trump is himself a major argument why 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.360 you want to have independence. 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:26.880 Of the FED. 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:32.160 You don't want somebody who doesn't understand monetary policy, who 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:36.480 would put at risk the long run stability of the 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:41.080 economy for the short term electoral advantage of having a 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:46.600 hot economy right before an election. That's precisely why there 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:52.160 is an argument for independence. So, you know, I believe 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:57.320 in the accountability of the FED. It is a public institution. 0:07:59.320 --> 0:07:59.800 We have. 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.520 Previous chairmen of the FED. We're very cognizant of that. 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:10.520 I remember Paul Voker saying Congress created us and Congress 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:14.120 can uncreate us. So there is a kind of accountability 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:18.160 that responsible to heads of the FED, understand, But we 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:22.240 certainly don't want Donald Trump to be running monetary policy. 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:24.840 All right, We do want to dig into your book 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.880 because you've been thinking a lot about the meaning of freedom, 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.160 and I think we throw the word abown a lot. 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:35.560 I think the folks who created the United States are 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:40.040 founding fathers thought about freedom a lot and the difference 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.760 though between what that really means and maybe it comes 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.240 down to, as you think about it, the values that 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.720 we all have in society tell us about how we 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:51.880 need to kind of maybe redefine freedom and what it 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:57.839 means in terms of citizens more broadly and generally, as 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.040 well as economically in terms of their six. 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:05.760 Sure you know, I approached the issue obviously as an economist, 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:10.040 and as an economist we think of freedom is free 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:11.160 to do what you can do. 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:13.120 What are the choices that you can make. 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.720 Somebody who is at the point of starvation doesn't really 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:19.640 have any freedom. He has to do what he does 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:24.800 what he can to survive, and so expanding the set 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:29.000 of choices that an individual is available is a way 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.320 of saying that he has more freedom. And here there 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.959 are a couple of ideas I put forward in my book. 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:44.040 The first is that in our integrated urban twenty percentury economy, 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:50.280 one person does the expansion of his freedom may. 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:52.400 Lead to less freedom of others. 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:57.880 Isaiah Berlin, the great Oxford philosopher, put it this way. 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:01.520 He said, freedom for the war has often meant death 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:07.000 for the sheep, and in the context of the US, 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.240 for instance, the freedom to carry an AK forty seven 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:16.480 means that people will die, and it means that our 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:21.320 school children are not free from fear. They have to 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:26.040 learn what to do if a gunman comes into the classroom, 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.800 and teachers have to go to school worried about whether 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:35.840 they'll be attacked. Freedom not to wear masks is exposed 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:38.440 taking away the freedom of others to live. 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:39.960 So we. 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:46.560 Have to balance these freedoms. There are trade offs. Many cases, 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:51.400 those trade offs are easy. Freedom to pollute takes away 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:58.240 the freedom to have somebody with asthma to even live, 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.600 let alone the freedom of all of us to live 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:06.120 on our planet. So there I think we have to 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:11.240 constrain the freedom of the pluters and the freedom of exploiters. 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:15.200 So we're talking with Joseph Stieglitz, Nobel Laureate Economists, Professor 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.000 of Economics at Columbia University, and we're talking about his 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.679 new book, The Road to Freedom, Economics and the Good Society. 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.319 All right, So if we think Professor Stieglitz the idea 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.520 of freedom, so it's maybe more inclusive or it's a 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:32.840 broader definition, how do we do that within society? With corporations, 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.920 the need to be profitable for those we are in 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:38.560 earning season. We look at companies and their reports and 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.200 that's how we kind of measure them, grade them. What 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:44.600 does government need to do? How can we maybe be 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:46.200 better if you will for more. 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:51.359 First, let me emphasize that in the world i've just described, 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:57.920 there's an important role for regulations. Corporations often don't like that, 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.440 but we have to remember the purpose of our economy 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:06.360 is to improve the lives and livelihoods of our citizens. 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:11.280 It's not the other way around that the economy. 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.559 The economy is supposed to serve society, not the other 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:14.560 way around. 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:16.960 There's another aspect. 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:21.040 Regulations can't actually expand the freedom of all of us. 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:25.320 Think about stop likes if we don't have stop stop likes. 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.600 We have gourdlock. None of us has the freedom to move. 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:33.319 Stop likes ors are a little bit of coercion, mean 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.600 that I have to take turns, but by taking turns, 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.920 we all have more freedom. And that basic idea extends 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:45.679 much more broadly. People don't like to pay taxes. That 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:50.800 that's they often feel kind of coercion. But when those 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:55.040 tax revenues are used productively, like they were to invest 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.040 in the Internet and invest in the m R any 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:02.400 platform that led to the vaccine against COVID nineteen, that 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:07.920 expands our freedom to do. And so we have to 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.000 look at this in I would say in a little 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:11.400 bit more holistic way. 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:13.480 Well, I want to go to your taxes point, because 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.280 I'm curious if you could wave a magic wand or 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.120 implement some sort of tax policy here in the US, 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.600 what would it be? How could you reinvent it? Would 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.680 you broaden the tax space, would you lean more on 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.679 corporate taxes, would you tax wealth more? What, in your 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:28.600 opinion would work? 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:31.840 Well, I begin by. 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.320 Analyzing would are some of the key problems on our 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.840 society basis, and one of them is inequality. One of 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.200 the reasons and a second problem is the growth of 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:47.680 market power, which has been enormous in the last few decades, 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.360 and those two are obviously linked. When you have more 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:56.600 market power, the fruits of that market power go to 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:01.200 those at the top. We also have more economists called 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:06.120 monoposity power. Firms have market power over workers and have 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:12.000 driven down their wages significantly below a competitive level. So 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.840 I want to have more anti trust policy, more competitive 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:23.640 labor market policies, but that can take time. Meanwhile, there's 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:28.200 a lot of monopoly rents, and so part of what 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:33.040 I would begin by doing is increasing corporate comfix taxes, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.960 which are not a tax on return to capital, they 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.800 are tax on this monopoly profits. 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:42.920 I'd also like to have environmental taxes. 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.560 Firms that are engaged, including the environment, ought to pay 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:52.880 for the damage that they're doing. Remarkably, America, those at 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:57.520 the top pay a lower percentage of their taxes than 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.680 those down below. Even some of our richest people have 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.520 commented that they think they're right more be wrong. 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:07.040 Well, can I ask you, like on a day when 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.120 we're looking at a company and forgive me, I'm just 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:13.200 singling out because it popped. Shares of alphabet are now 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:17.080 a two trillion dollar market cap company this week, you 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.240 know next week. Last week, we've been obsessed with, certainly 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.280 what we call the Magnificent seven, the big megacap technic companies. 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.600 They're very big. Amazon, we talked with an author recently, 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.880 so entrenched certainly in our world, and you think about 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.640 their reach. Are these the companies, the individuals, whether it's 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.560 an Amazon, whether it's a Meta, whether it's an alphabet 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.720 that you think you talked about. Growth of market power 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.520 isn't too much at this point in your view that 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:45.640 something needs to be done to rain them in or 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.320 do the benefits outweigh the downside here, Well. 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.640 They do give benefits, but they have a lot of downsides. 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.680 They need to be better regulated. Europe has done a 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:03.320 better job but regulating that. The digital harms are quite 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.280 obvious and have been by now well documented. 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:13.600 But talking narrowly now about market power, I. 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.000 Think we ought to do what we can to limit 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:20.920 their market power, but tax the fruits of that market power, 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.120 the revenues that they get at a much higher rate. 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:30.840 You know, if you ask the question, would Jeff Bezos 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.000 or the founders. 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:34.640 Of Google. 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:41.200 Or Zuperbird stop working if we tax their wealth in 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:47.040 a way, say a three percent, So any answer is obvious. 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:49.040 They would continue to work. 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:50.880 Do you think that they would leave the United States? 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:55.320 Well, we have imposed what we call an exit tax 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.600 that those with a lot of wealth and don't feel 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.640 who don't feel loyalty United States. 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:03.520 Can lead. 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.960 We allowed them to leave, but they have to pay 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.879 a tax that represents attacks on the groups of the 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.600 wealth that they've accumulated while they've been in the United States. 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:19.400 And that tax is significant, and it is a deterrent, 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.480 and if it's not, it may be that we ought 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.600 to consider raising that tax. But I don't think people 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:31.439 like Zuckerberg Musk are going to leave the United States. 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.760 They realize the benefits of American citizenship. 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.919 We're speaking right now with Professor Joseph Stieglitz, Nobel Lauriate Economists. 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.439 He's a professor of economics at Columbia University. He's got 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:44.720 a new book out, The Road to Freedom, Economics and 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.239 the Good Society. Professor, as I mentioned, you are up 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:50.400 at Columbia. You've been there for a long time. We've 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:53.320 been watching everything that's been happening on the campus there, 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:57.240 as well as campuses including USC, Yale, MIT, the list 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.520 continues to go on here in the United States, as 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.879 was seen Palestinian protests and encabments take over some of 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:07.359 these campuses. Freedom in the academic context, How are you 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.159 looking at the protest protests and the context of freedom 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:10.600 of speech? 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:13.560 That's a good question, I mean personal. 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.720 Let me comment that up where my office is, which 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:20.960 is the Manhattanville campus, things are. 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:25.840 Very quiet the business school at the business school there. 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:28.800 But you've been on campus a long time and you've 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.359 seen different protests over the years, and it seemed to 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:33.119 be I was there when there were protests, and it 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.120 seems like that's what students are should be doing, exploring 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:39.280 and pushing back when they don't feel like things are right. 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:42.400 But what is what is the what is it those 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.119 protests in the context of freedom of speech? 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:46.840 So I agree with you very strongly. 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.919 I'm actually happy the students are engaged in the world, 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.399 you know. That's that's one of the things I tribably 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:58.359 keept them to be interested in the world and also 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:02.760 the reason about the world, to come to understand it 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:08.480 and to debate how could or should things be changed. 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.879 So that's a good thing. And in my own life, 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:20.560 protests have played a very important role. Back in nineteen 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.399 sixty three, I was down there in the march in 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:28.320 Washington with Martin Luther King, and you know that speech 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.399 he gave about I have a Dream has been a 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:39.520 lifelong inspiration to me. So even civil disobedience in certain 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:46.639 circumstances can be an important mechanism for social change. We 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:50.800 have a special responsibility, of course, to make sure on 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.880 our campus that all views get heard, that we can 0:19:53.920 --> 0:20:03.040 have civil debates, and on the one end, academic freedom 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:08.840 is really important. And I really took offense to Speaker 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:12.119 Johnson coming up to our campus and calling for the 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.440 resignation of our president. 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:16.639 I hadn't seen anything. 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.879 Like that, maybe since the HUAC hearings the House on 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.960 American Activities Committee back with McCarthy in the fifties. I mean, 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:31.240 that kind of direct interference in academia is just unheard of. 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:36.160 And we know some of the Republicans have been trying 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:41.640 to undermine universities because universities teach children how to our 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:46.200 young our youngsters, our young men and women, how to think, 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.480 and a lot of people don't like that idea that 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:53.919 they should be thinking for themselves. But at the same time, 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:59.960 we have to create on campus a community. We're all 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.600 voices are heard, and I think we're actually working very 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:11.280 much towards that. There were only a few people raising problems, 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:18.000 and I think having outside actu takers like the speaker 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:19.960 is not helpful. 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:22.439 We're going to leave it on that note. We always 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.280 appreciate hearing you talk about hearing from voices. We always 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:28.320 appreciate hearing from you. Professor Stieglitz, thank you so much, 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:32.320 Nobell Loride Economist Columbia Professor Joseph Stieglitz here in New 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.480 York City. Check out his book. His latest book, The 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:39.280 Road to Freedom, Economics and the Good Society. Really appreciate 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:47.360 us spending some time with you. 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:51.200 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.240 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple Car 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.199 Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:00.480 can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:04.359 New York station, Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:08.879 This next book Tim's pick, also Group fave by New 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:12.760 York Times Global economics correspondent and award winning journalist Peter S. Goodman, 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:15.560 the book How the World Ran out of everything inside 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:18.840 the global supply chain. And to understand the supply chain. 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.040 Peter visits seemingly every link. He spends time with one 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:25.000 of the largest exporters of amends in California and the 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:27.159 dock workers who are supposed to get those amends all 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:29.560 over the world. He hitches a ride through Kansas with 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:32.520 a Brahms loving trucker and visits ports from Los Angeles 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.600 to Savannah to explain how the world found itself in 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.080 the greatest supply chain crisis it's ever seen. 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:40.760 He is a journalist that really does his job. Here's 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:43.600 Tim Summer read from Peter S. Goodman, his book How 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:46.760 the World Run Out of Everything Inside the Global supply Chain? 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:51.359 Bill Clinton and China entering the wto the rise of globalization, 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:55.680 McKenzie and the Lean Taliban, the decline of unions in 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:59.720 the working class, the rise of share buybacks and increasing dividends, 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:04.639 monopolistic takeovers, and then the pandemic and the great supply 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:06.080 chain crisis. 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:08.560 Covering it all. And this complex global system is New 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:12.359 York Times Global Economics correspondent an award winning journalist, Peter S. 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:12.760 Goodman. 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:15.679 He's the author of the new book Just Out how 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:19.040 the world ran out of everything inside the global supply chain. 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:22.920 And to understand the global supply chain, Peter visits seemingly 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:25.520 every link of it. He spends time in one of 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.800 the largest exporters of almonds in California and with the 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:31.119 dock workers who are supposed to get those amends all 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:33.760 over the world. He hitches a ride through Kansas with 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:37.120 a Brahms loving trucker, feeds cows with a third generation 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:40.119 rancher in Montana, and eats breakfast with the commissioner of 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:43.560 the Federal Maritime Commission. He visits ports from la to 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:46.119 Savannah to explain how the world found itself in the 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:48.160 greatest supply chain crisis it's ever seen. 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:50.879 All Right, he is here in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker studio. 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:53.600 We wanted to do the setup because it's really comprehensive, 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:55.439 and I do feel like I think it's safe to 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:57.280 say that it explains a lot of kind of where 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.760 we are today. So, Peter, you have such a front 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:03.879 row seat to so much that is going on in 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:06.159 the world. Tell us about that front row seat and 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:08.560 what kind of really you know, stands out for you. 0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:10.640 You know, it's changed the way I look at any 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:14.040 package that lands at my door, or really any product 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:17.000 that somebody made somewhere that had to be transported to 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:19.280 a store or to a home or a business. We 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:21.800 don't tend to think about the supply chain, you know. 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:23.520 It's one of those things. It's like the light switch. 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:25.760 We're not thinking about the internal wiring. We flipped on 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:27.640 the light's work well when. 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:30.720 We needed it most. It failed, It. 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:33.560 Buckled, and we had frontline medical workers dealing with COVID 0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:36.840 patients without protective gear. We had families unable to find 0:24:36.840 --> 0:24:39.040 infant formula. I mean, that was an incredible crisis. We 0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:41.840 have a toilet paper scare, which turned out to not 0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:45.040 be so much as shortage as a question of hoarding. 0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:48.360 And we all remember these ships, you know, fifty sixty 0:24:48.560 --> 0:24:52.359 seventy ships that were floating off the coast of southern California, 0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:56.280 unable to land, floating for weeks at a time before 0:24:56.359 --> 0:24:58.760 they could find a slot to load and unload all 0:24:58.800 --> 0:25:01.640 these factory goods coming in from China. And I think 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:03.920 for all of us in the midst of the pandemic, 0:25:03.960 --> 0:25:08.240 it was so bewildering that it gave us this curiosity 0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:09.000 about these people. 0:25:09.000 --> 0:25:09.840 We never think about. 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:10.000 So. 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:13.080 Yes, as you guys pointed out, I climbed into in 0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:17.280 the front of a truck. I visited with rail maintenance 0:25:17.320 --> 0:25:19.520 workers who were away from their families for weeks at 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:22.080 a time, and I really tried to understand what has 0:25:22.119 --> 0:25:23.280 gone haywire here. 0:25:23.640 --> 0:25:26.399 Peter, the reason we're talking about such a complex supply 0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:29.679 chain is because of globalization. Your career has kind of 0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:34.560 coincided with the rise of globalization, right being a reporter 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:37.359 in South Asia in the nineties and then post dot 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:40.200 com crash working for the Washington Post. I think it 0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:42.359 was out of Shanghai. That's you visited a lot of 0:25:42.359 --> 0:25:45.760 these factories at times when they weren't what they are today. 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:48.280 Talk a little bit about how you've seen that your 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:51.200 career alongside the rise of globalization. 0:25:51.600 --> 0:25:54.120 Yeah, I appreciate your pointing that out. So I landed 0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:56.800 in China in two thousand and one, which was the 0:25:56.800 --> 0:25:59.480 same year that China, of course enters the World Trade Organization, 0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:03.760 this landmark, you know, moment for globalization, and it was 0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:09.399 pretty clear then that China had huge aspirations and that 0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:12.479 the world was flocking to China in large part because 0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:16.200 you know, corporate CEOs who were constantly looking for ways 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:21.040 to cut costs, availed themselves of this ultimate opportunity to 0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:24.280 you know, engage Chinese labor as a way of undercutting 0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:28.160 labor costs at home in the US and in Japan, 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:32.320 in South Korea, in Europe. And it was also clear 0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:36.479 that the Chinese government had very systematically built out the 0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:40.199 infrastructure that was needed for trade. So you know, visited 0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:43.720 massive ports factories that were capable of making you know, 0:26:43.880 --> 0:26:47.720 enough microwave ovens to supply Walmart for a year, you know, 0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:52.160 and whole towns were you know, set up for single industries. 0:26:52.200 --> 0:26:54.760 I remember going to the necktie town. There was this 0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:58.160 one town in one province that was suddenly making more 0:26:58.200 --> 0:27:00.480 neckties than all of Italy, you know, in the course 0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:03.520 of a decade. So you could feel that the scale 0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:08.360 was available. But what I didn't understand, and what I've 0:27:08.400 --> 0:27:10.840 come to understand through this book, is that all of 0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:14.440 this was premised on the idea that container shipping would 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:18.560 be basically free and reliable. And what I've come to 0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:22.479 see is that we built this global economy putting ourselves 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:25.560 really at the mercy of this international cartel. 0:27:25.680 --> 0:27:29.320 If you had to pinpoint, was it President Bill Clinton, 0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:32.560 former President Bill Clinton, and the push to get everybody 0:27:32.680 --> 0:27:35.080 or to get China in the WTO. That that's why 0:27:35.160 --> 0:27:38.480 we're having this conversation. That's why when the pandemic hit, 0:27:38.720 --> 0:27:40.720 we were like, what the heck happened to our global 0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:45.000 supply chain? Isn't that particular moment in time that got 0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:45.400 us to. 0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:47.480 Hear I think that's a landmark. I mean, there's a 0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:48.640 lot of moments at time, right. 0:27:48.680 --> 0:27:50.560 I mean I write about Ford because I was interested 0:27:50.560 --> 0:27:53.359 in the rise of mass assembly. I write about the 0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:57.960 roots of the shipping container because the process of standardizing 0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:00.680 cargo made it possible to go look for the cheapest 0:28:00.680 --> 0:28:02.240 place to make anything. 0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:03.520 You could go anywhere around the world. 0:28:03.560 --> 0:28:06.679 But if China wasn't accepted on a global scale in 0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:08.800 terms of trade, right, there was a big push. There 0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:11.080 were lots of concerns about human rights. There are still 0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:13.920 lots of big concerns about human rights, and yet there 0:28:13.960 --> 0:28:16.920 they were right in the WTO, something they fought for. 0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:20.040 Well, here's the part that people are generally afraid to 0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:24.000 talk about. You know, China gets into the WTO because 0:28:24.240 --> 0:28:28.800 American retailers lobby like crazy to get China into the WTO, 0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:32.560 and nobody wants to be affiliated with the story of 0:28:32.640 --> 0:28:36.560 labor exploitation. Now, let's remember Chinese labor in American history. 0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:40.440 You know, from the beginning it's about undercutting wages. Right, 0:28:40.680 --> 0:28:44.400 Chinese workers aren't systematically brought over from China to build 0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:47.960 the railroads because the mostly Irish laborers say, ah, this 0:28:48.000 --> 0:28:50.400 is pretty dangerous and we're not getting paid enough. So 0:28:50.760 --> 0:28:53.040 this is a continuation of that story, you know, a 0:28:53.120 --> 0:28:56.520 century later, where now we're bringing the production to China 0:28:57.080 --> 0:29:01.400 and there's this is a sort of seamy, unsavory quality 0:29:01.560 --> 0:29:04.400 to this story because of course China is controlled by 0:29:04.400 --> 0:29:07.160 the Chinese commediest Party. There's no elections. You can get 0:29:07.200 --> 0:29:11.680 access to land, you can bypass workplace and environmental standards 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:14.520 by cutting some local party official in on part of 0:29:14.520 --> 0:29:16.640 the sports. Well, this is not a good story for 0:29:16.720 --> 0:29:19.960 Bill Clinton, who you know, only a decade before he 0:29:20.040 --> 0:29:22.760 lobbies to get China into the WTO, is running as 0:29:22.800 --> 0:29:25.880 the guy who's you know, disciplining George H. W. Bush 0:29:25.920 --> 0:29:29.680 for coddling the butchers of Beijing. He's very critical of 0:29:29.720 --> 0:29:35.160 the crackdown against the pro democracy demonstrators in Tianneman Square. Well, 0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:36.840 I tell the story in the book. You know, it's 0:29:36.880 --> 0:29:39.960 not even a decade later, and Clinton's in Beijing at 0:29:39.960 --> 0:29:42.480 a banquet at the Great Hall of the People across 0:29:42.520 --> 0:29:45.680 the street from Tianeman Square, where he literally picks up 0:29:45.760 --> 0:29:50.719 the baton and conducts the People's Liberation Army Orchestra as 0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:53.160 they play this John Phillips southsro March. Now, why is 0:29:53.160 --> 0:29:57.640 Bill Clinton there? He's there because his party, the Democratic Party, 0:29:57.960 --> 0:30:02.280 is pulling in massive campaign attributions from retailers, and they're 0:30:02.360 --> 0:30:05.840 fashioning this story. It's not totally a fairy tale, right, 0:30:05.880 --> 0:30:08.920 I mean, trade has been the lynchpin of American foreign 0:30:08.960 --> 0:30:10.920 policy since the end of the Second World War. But 0:30:10.920 --> 0:30:12.600 there are a lot of reasons to be dubious that. 0:30:12.840 --> 0:30:15.200 You know, this is really about It's not just about 0:30:15.200 --> 0:30:17.720 selling Chinese people lots of stuff. It's not just about 0:30:17.800 --> 0:30:21.440 buying cheap goods from China. This is about democratizing China once. 0:30:21.640 --> 0:30:23.640 Well, that was the goal, that thinking that, okay, let's 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:26.800 open up you know, trade and probably democracy will come 0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:29.160 and the human rights abuses will go away. And yet 0:30:29.400 --> 0:30:30.960 it didn't necessarily play out that way. 0:30:31.080 --> 0:30:33.360 Well, one part of it played out. We got really 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:37.200 low cost goods from China. The Walton family, the founders 0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:39.720 of Walmart, for a while became, you know, the wealthiest 0:30:39.720 --> 0:30:44.000 family on Earth. And anybody who moved production over to 0:30:44.080 --> 0:30:46.960 China at scale and managed to do the right deals 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:51.280 rewarded their shareholders handsomely. That part held to form. Also, 0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:57.040 not incidentally, the industrialization of China lifted several hundred million 0:30:57.240 --> 0:30:58.600 people out of poverty. 0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:00.560 Yeah, and that's highly significant. 0:31:00.560 --> 0:31:03.440 But the part about once Chinese people get a taste 0:31:03.440 --> 0:31:06.160 of Kentucky fried chicken, they're going to demand the ballot box, well, 0:31:06.160 --> 0:31:08.880 that has not worked out as I think everyone is now. 0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:12.160 Where you know, we're talking about genocide according to the 0:31:12.200 --> 0:31:16.120 Biden administration in Hinjong, where the Wigers are pressed into 0:31:16.160 --> 0:31:19.960 forced labor to produce cotton that ends up in lots 0:31:19.960 --> 0:31:24.240 of apparel. Of course, we still don't have elections. The 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:28.720 central government has actually strengthened its role in Chinese society, 0:31:28.880 --> 0:31:31.800 so we don't hear that talk anymore. And of course 0:31:31.840 --> 0:31:36.640 now it's become politically fashionable within both parties to attack 0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:37.640 China as our enemy. 0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:40.960 Peter, you mentioned concentration in shipping. I believe you called 0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:43.640 it a cartel, right, I had no idea before reading 0:31:43.720 --> 0:31:46.360 this that it was basically what three companies. 0:31:45.880 --> 0:31:48.480 Three alliances that can use a bunch of companies, but 0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:49.640 think of it like airline allies. 0:31:49.760 --> 0:31:52.240 Three alliances that control basically all. 0:31:52.160 --> 0:31:55.520 Of shipping ninety five percent of the shipping from China 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:56.960 to the West coast of the United States. 0:31:57.080 --> 0:31:59.960 Some of the companies owned by China or like our 0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:03.560 are state subsidized organizations. How did it become like that? 0:32:03.920 --> 0:32:07.560 It became like that because there was deregulation pretty much everywhere, 0:32:07.560 --> 0:32:09.880 including in the US, where you know there used to 0:32:09.880 --> 0:32:12.880 be this anti trust exemption, but there was regulation on 0:32:13.000 --> 0:32:16.680 shipping rates, so you had to post what your rates 0:32:16.720 --> 0:32:18.120 were from one place to another. 0:32:18.320 --> 0:32:21.320 You couldn't negotiate a deal in secret. 0:32:21.760 --> 0:32:24.640 It was all above board, sort of like a utility, right, 0:32:24.880 --> 0:32:28.000 like the governments involved because this is a vital part 0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:32.280 of the economy. And then basically retailers lobbied. There were 0:32:32.280 --> 0:32:35.000 a couple of landmarks. The last one was in the eighties. 0:32:35.480 --> 0:32:38.240 There was no Amazon then, but there was Walmart target. 0:32:38.240 --> 0:32:41.040 The big retailers thought, well, if we're bringing over lots 0:32:41.040 --> 0:32:43.560 of these factory goods from China to the West coast 0:32:43.600 --> 0:32:45.200 of the US, to the East coast of the US, 0:32:45.440 --> 0:32:47.440 we would like to be able to negotiate a better 0:32:47.480 --> 0:32:50.600 deal than the smaller competitors. So essentially we've optimized the 0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:55.160 supply chain for the biggest companies, and the anti trust 0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:58.680 was essentially deactivated throughout much of American life. Right, you 0:32:58.720 --> 0:33:01.200 go back to Reagan, although really the story starts with Carter. 0:33:01.680 --> 0:33:04.560 You know, we're steeped in this idea that scale is 0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:07.680 the way to serve consumers, and so let's just get 0:33:07.680 --> 0:33:09.920 out of the way of business and let them provide, 0:33:10.400 --> 0:33:13.360 you know, that will deliver innovation. But once you take 0:33:13.400 --> 0:33:16.720 away competition, of course, what we get is pricing power. 0:33:17.160 --> 0:33:20.160 And for a long time, these mostly well they're all 0:33:20.200 --> 0:33:24.880 actually foreign companies. In international shipping. There were like extensions 0:33:24.920 --> 0:33:28.680 of state policy in China, South Korea, Taiwan, so they 0:33:28.680 --> 0:33:30.920 were content to keep shipping costs low as a way 0:33:30.960 --> 0:33:34.400 to bolster their exports. But once we get a shock 0:33:34.720 --> 0:33:38.239 in the great supply chain disruption during the pandemic, we 0:33:38.320 --> 0:33:42.520 see shipping prices go up tenfold, and we see, you know, 0:33:42.560 --> 0:33:44.160 you guys were alluding to the fact that I spent 0:33:44.240 --> 0:33:47.280 some time with Amman farmers in central California. We see 0:33:47.320 --> 0:33:53.880 amed farmers I visited had an entire crop sold to 0:33:54.000 --> 0:33:57.360 Dubai to Japanese purchasers, and they were just sitting on 0:33:57.400 --> 0:34:00.560 all this crop that they couldn't actually get on a ship. 0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:04.920 Because these shipping carriers were making so much money sending 0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:07.480 factory goods from China to the West coast of the US, 0:34:07.560 --> 0:34:10.000 which is the gateway for forty percent of American imports, 0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:12.600 that they didn't even want to bother to send empty 0:34:12.600 --> 0:34:15.480 containers up to the Central Valley to load up with 0:34:15.600 --> 0:34:19.080 farm products like ammons. They just unloaded factory goods in 0:34:19.239 --> 0:34:23.160 La and sent empty containers back across the Pacific. We're 0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:26.520 talking about burning diesel fuel to send air back across 0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:29.640 the Pacific. So they can get twenty five twenty seven 0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:33.120 twenty eight thousand dollars to move a container of factory 0:34:33.120 --> 0:34:36.520 goods from you know, a place like Shanghai to LA 0:34:37.000 --> 0:34:39.719 that used to cost like twenty twenty five hundred during 0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:43.000 the pandemic. That's largely the story of deregulation. 0:34:43.320 --> 0:34:43.520 You know. 0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:47.399 One thing I think about, though, in particular in your 0:34:47.400 --> 0:34:49.600 book is kind of the role of consultanc here. And 0:34:49.640 --> 0:34:51.520 I don't want to pick pile on anyone in particular. 0:34:51.600 --> 0:34:53.759 But you do single out mackenzie, I sure do. You 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:56.399 do talk about the lean Taliban. You also get into 0:34:56.520 --> 0:34:58.920 a lot of just in time inventory for anybody's taking 0:34:58.960 --> 0:35:02.960 accounting cleanses. Played around with this, right, but this idea too, 0:35:03.080 --> 0:35:07.239 that you don't want to have big inventories, you want 0:35:07.239 --> 0:35:09.600 to be lean and mean. Right, so, because those inventories 0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:12.920 are costly to store them, to have them, and all 0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:17.319 that thing, and so this financial focus on that and 0:35:17.400 --> 0:35:20.680 this kind of narrative of saying be lean and mean, 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:22.840 that's a good thing. We've all played a part of 0:35:22.880 --> 0:35:24.919 it when we go through the quarterly lean and mean 0:35:25.000 --> 0:35:27.960 this is a good thing for a company. How big 0:35:27.960 --> 0:35:30.319 a role did that play in getting us so that 0:35:30.360 --> 0:35:34.200 when the pandemic hit, nobody had excess supply anywhere? 0:35:34.320 --> 0:35:37.680 A huge role. We cut inventories to the bone. Publicly 0:35:37.680 --> 0:35:41.760 traded companies cut inventories to the bone over decades. Now, 0:35:42.080 --> 0:35:44.759 Just in time is a sensible idea. It was pioneered 0:35:44.800 --> 0:35:49.200 by Toyota, and of World War two devastation, not a 0:35:49.200 --> 0:35:51.440 lot of capital, not a lot of land to develop. 0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:55.280 Taichi Ono, who is running Toyota, pioneers this idea instead 0:35:55.280 --> 0:35:58.000 of making as much stuff as possible like Henry Ford 0:35:58.000 --> 0:36:00.759 did at Ford and letting sales people try to figure 0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:03.560 out how to sell it. Let's just make enough to 0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:06.799 replenish the cars that we've already sold. Let's get our 0:36:06.840 --> 0:36:09.239 suppliers to deliver the stuff we need right when we 0:36:09.280 --> 0:36:11.040 need it, rather than waste. 0:36:10.760 --> 0:36:11.759 Capital on warehouses. 0:36:11.800 --> 0:36:14.920 Hey, that's a good idea, but a long come of 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:19.760 publicly traded companies guided by consultants like McKenzie who say, listen, 0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:23.080 this should apply to everything, and you should not stop 0:36:23.640 --> 0:36:27.279 until there's basically no inventory. And what you do is, 0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:30.280 instead of wasting capital on sticking you know, auto parts, 0:36:30.360 --> 0:36:33.360 you know, a warehouse as a hedge against trouble, just 0:36:33.520 --> 0:36:36.759 liquidate the warehouse. Take the cash, give it to yourselves 0:36:36.920 --> 0:36:39.840 to reward yourselves, corporate executives for being smart enough to 0:36:39.880 --> 0:36:42.400 hire McKenzie, Give it to shareholders and the form of 0:36:42.440 --> 0:36:47.080 dividends and share buybacks, and everybody's happy until there's a problem. 0:36:47.520 --> 0:36:50.000 And this pandemic was not the first time we saw 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:51.560 a shock to the system. I mean, I wrote my 0:36:51.560 --> 0:36:54.200 first supply chain story back in nineteen ninety nine. It 0:36:54.239 --> 0:36:57.560 was about an earthquake in Taiwan, and back then people said, oh, whoops, 0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:01.680 we've got computer chip shortages. Maybe we shouldn't concentrate all 0:37:01.680 --> 0:37:04.080 our industry here, Maybe we should have a little more difference. 0:37:03.800 --> 0:37:05.560 If we learn our lesson with the computer tip industry. 0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:06.400 We sure did not. 0:37:07.239 --> 0:37:09.279 I mean, I tell the story in the book of 0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:12.680 Henry Ford, who is a problematic figure in history, but 0:37:12.719 --> 0:37:14.640 knew a thing or two about supply chains and never 0:37:14.680 --> 0:37:16.000 wanted to be in a position where. 0:37:15.840 --> 0:37:19.560 He could be pinched by a supplier constrained. 0:37:20.080 --> 0:37:21.920 Would have been horrified to see what I saw one 0:37:21.960 --> 0:37:24.279 hundred years later, as on walking the catwalk at his 0:37:24.400 --> 0:37:28.680 signature River Rouge plant outside of Detroit, where they're making 0:37:28.719 --> 0:37:32.560 these beautiful f one fifty pickup trucks their most popular vehicle. 0:37:32.680 --> 0:37:34.600 They've got all the things they need except for the 0:37:34.600 --> 0:37:36.560 one thing that brings it to life, the computer chip. 0:37:36.600 --> 0:37:40.000 And I watched them park these cars in the shadow 0:37:40.520 --> 0:37:44.560 of Ford's corporate headquarters across the street from Henry Ford 0:37:44.640 --> 0:37:47.440 Elementary School. I mean, he would be spinning in his 0:37:47.560 --> 0:37:49.880 grave over this. We did not learn the lesson. 0:37:50.040 --> 0:37:51.799 I think this is his part, and forgive me if 0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:53.920 I've got it wrong. But when I read it Detroit 0:37:53.960 --> 0:37:56.359 had devolved into a poignant example of what happened when 0:37:56.400 --> 0:37:59.640 middle class factory jobs were replaced by poverty level positions 0:37:59.640 --> 0:38:02.600 at reach Heller's warehouses and fast food chains. Next to 0:38:02.640 --> 0:38:05.920 the old Highland Park factory, now forlorn brickshell, a shopping 0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:09.359 center called modelty Plaza was anchored by a dollar store, 0:38:09.400 --> 0:38:12.840 a payday lender, and a plasma collection center, awaiting people 0:38:13.040 --> 0:38:15.279 willing to swap blood for cash. The cards off had 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:17.600 become an instrument of white flight. Like that to me 0:38:18.160 --> 0:38:20.920 says so much of what's going on across America and 0:38:20.960 --> 0:38:23.120 explains to me politics in a big way. We want 0:38:23.160 --> 0:38:25.759 to bring in Doug Christeners here. Doug is like this 0:38:25.800 --> 0:38:29.040 great thinker and like your book just kind of reminds 0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:30.680 us of the things we talk about with Doug. So 0:38:30.760 --> 0:38:32.640 we wanted to bring in one of the things. 0:38:32.440 --> 0:38:34.840 That's interesting, Tim was going to talk about politics. In 0:38:34.880 --> 0:38:39.160 the nineteen ninety two presidential campaign. Ross Perrot was the 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:42.600 lone voice who was kind of cautioning against at that 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:45.560 time what was the North American Free Trade Agreement Canada, 0:38:45.680 --> 0:38:49.640 the US and Mexico. What's stunning is how quickly the 0:38:49.719 --> 0:38:53.799 conversation became about China. Why did that pivot happen so 0:38:54.000 --> 0:38:58.200 quickly in your view away from North America manufacturing in China. 0:38:58.680 --> 0:39:02.680 Well, China, it operates on a whole different scale than Mexico, right, 0:39:02.760 --> 0:39:05.120 So Rossboro, of course, yeah, famously warned of the giant 0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:08.480 sucking sound. And we did lose some jobs in the 0:39:08.480 --> 0:39:11.359 industrial Midwest to Mexico, but we picked up a lot 0:39:11.360 --> 0:39:15.080 of jobs because the US and Mexico are economically integrated. 0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:17.680 And I mean it's ironic now to think about Mexico 0:39:17.760 --> 0:39:20.160 as the solution to some of our supply chain problems. 0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:24.120 But when we import something from Mexico, forty percent of 0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:26.840 the value of that imported good was actually made in 0:39:26.880 --> 0:39:29.120 the United States. So you know, we bring in a 0:39:29.160 --> 0:39:32.800 car that was made in a Mexican factory, and forty 0:39:32.800 --> 0:39:35.040 percent of the value of that car was built by 0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:41.240 American labor in American factories. The component number for China 0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:45.040 is three percent, so only three percent of the value 0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:49.440 of imports from China have American value. Add and of 0:39:49.440 --> 0:39:52.120 course Chinese state policy is really directed to driving that 0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:55.600 as close to zero as possible. But I think it's 0:39:55.640 --> 0:39:58.640 really important to note that a lot of these failures 0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:05.000 that have fueled backlash originally Mexico now China. I argue 0:40:05.000 --> 0:40:06.799 in the book, I mean this part nobody really wants 0:40:06.840 --> 0:40:10.360 to talk about. These are homemade failures. I mean, we 0:40:10.440 --> 0:40:13.719 have benefited from trade with China. We have benefited from 0:40:13.719 --> 0:40:16.240 trade with Mexico. We've got a lot of low cost goods. 0:40:16.760 --> 0:40:19.680 In the case of Mexico again, we've boosted our exports. 0:40:20.200 --> 0:40:25.239 We've got consumers benefiting. A lot of data shows that 0:40:25.320 --> 0:40:29.000 consumer spending has been juiced by trade with China, and 0:40:29.040 --> 0:40:30.840 that money ends up, you know, in the hands of 0:40:30.840 --> 0:40:34.840 American service providers. Our leisure you know, is more robot 0:40:34.880 --> 0:40:37.480 We have more money here. The problem is we haven't 0:40:37.520 --> 0:40:41.040 cushioned the people who have lost. And we have seen 0:40:41.480 --> 0:40:46.040 whole communities, industries, you know, really hit hard by this 0:40:46.200 --> 0:40:48.600 China shock. That a lot of the data shows we're 0:40:48.600 --> 0:40:51.239 talking one million direct jobs in the space of a 0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:53.760 decade lost to Chinese imports. 0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:56.759 It is China the bad guy, or is it investors 0:40:56.840 --> 0:41:01.200 and companies who constantly we're seeking out a low cost provider. 0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:05.920 The ultimate winners are the investor class, without any question, 0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:10.120 and there's a lot of labor exploitation in China. So yes, 0:41:10.400 --> 0:41:12.960 the winners are the people who funded the Clinton campaign 0:41:13.000 --> 0:41:14.280 and got Bill Clinton against. 0:41:14.160 --> 0:41:16.520 Say nothing of environmental regulation, of course. 0:41:16.640 --> 0:41:18.479 Okay, right, go ahead, Peter. 0:41:18.520 --> 0:41:22.240 I want to talk about labor exploitation in the trucking industry, sure, 0:41:22.600 --> 0:41:25.040 because a common thing that we heard over and over 0:41:25.080 --> 0:41:27.600 again during the pandemic and the supply chain disruption that 0:41:27.600 --> 0:41:30.840 we saw was that trucking companies just didn't have enough drivers. 0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:32.440 They needed people to go learn how to drive a 0:41:32.440 --> 0:41:36.680 truck and start driving trucks. You found that that wasn't 0:41:36.680 --> 0:41:38.720 the case. It's just a really, really bad job. 0:41:39.400 --> 0:41:42.319 It's a horrible job. I mean, I rode with a 0:41:42.440 --> 0:41:45.480 trucker in the best possible conditions, guy who actually likes 0:41:45.520 --> 0:41:48.719 his job, from Kansas City to Dallas and back in 0:41:48.760 --> 0:41:50.720 the middle of the winter. I slept in the cab 0:41:50.920 --> 0:41:53.920 for two nights. I watched this man have to worry 0:41:54.000 --> 0:41:57.160 about caffeinating enough so we wouldn't fall asleep at the wheel, 0:41:57.840 --> 0:42:00.279 and yet not having to pull over to use the restroom. 0:42:00.440 --> 0:42:02.960 Truckers are constantly worried about where they're going to park. 0:42:03.160 --> 0:42:05.360 They're at the mercy of lots of other parts of 0:42:05.360 --> 0:42:07.359 the supply chain. They have no influence over. They can 0:42:07.400 --> 0:42:10.279 get stuck at warehouses for hours waiting for somebody to 0:42:10.400 --> 0:42:14.920 load or unload their vehicle because warehouses have shortages of workers. Now, 0:42:15.200 --> 0:42:20.120 this trucking industry shortage, this is an industry talking point. 0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:22.600 There's ten million people in the United States who have 0:42:22.719 --> 0:42:26.480 licenses to drive long haul trucks, and we need roughly 0:42:26.520 --> 0:42:29.360 a third that number. We've run out of people we 0:42:29.440 --> 0:42:33.000 can feed into the mill who are willing to sign 0:42:33.080 --> 0:42:36.239 off on these predatory lending arrangements by which truckers pay 0:42:36.320 --> 0:42:39.719 for their certification, by which they end up buying these 0:42:39.840 --> 0:42:43.480 vehicles at wildly inflated prices from the trucking companies. Then 0:42:43.480 --> 0:42:46.480 they're forced to go service these vehicles at places that 0:42:46.560 --> 0:42:50.400 are part of the empires of these trucking companies. And 0:42:50.440 --> 0:42:52.200 so a lot of people, you know, they get tired 0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:54.799 of being away from their families. They get tired of 0:42:54.840 --> 0:42:58.239 hearing that they've missed another chill child's birthday party, they 0:42:58.239 --> 0:43:01.120 miss people's funerals. It's a tough job. It's always been 0:43:01.120 --> 0:43:03.840 a tough job. The difference is it's been downgraded to 0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:05.759 the point that we've run out of takers for this 0:43:05.880 --> 0:43:06.359 tough job. 0:43:06.400 --> 0:43:08.319 What's the remedy in your view? I mean, how do 0:43:08.400 --> 0:43:10.279 we get out of the situation that we're in now. 0:43:10.520 --> 0:43:13.399 I'm listening to the trucking story and I'm thinking of 0:43:13.760 --> 0:43:16.759 robotic vehicles that are going to be creeping into the 0:43:16.760 --> 0:43:19.680 scene pretty soon. So the argument that you're making right 0:43:19.680 --> 0:43:21.799 now may get a remedy, but it's going to be 0:43:22.400 --> 0:43:25.279 at the cost of labor in a major way. But 0:43:25.360 --> 0:43:27.280 what do you think the remedy is longer term? 0:43:27.560 --> 0:43:29.440 I mean, I think for openers, we got to look 0:43:29.480 --> 0:43:33.240 at these predatory arrangements that truckers make with the people 0:43:33.320 --> 0:43:37.680 coming through these educational mills that set up certification with 0:43:37.960 --> 0:43:42.280 taxpayer funding. You know, we are paying to feed people 0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:45.520 into these training programs where they end up getting jobs 0:43:45.520 --> 0:43:47.560 that pay a fraction of what they've been promised. 0:43:47.640 --> 0:43:49.239 So that's the first thing to do. 0:43:49.440 --> 0:43:51.799 Look, automation is inevitable, it's going to happen, but we 0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:55.080 got to have a conversation about how we compensate the 0:43:55.080 --> 0:43:57.120 people who are still in the business. We got to 0:43:57.120 --> 0:43:59.919 make sure that they can get exercise, that they can eat, 0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:01.880 eat better than they're eating. 0:44:01.920 --> 0:44:04.959 I mean, the food that you see at. 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:07.759 These truck stops it's just a it's a tough life. 0:44:07.800 --> 0:44:10.040 The government has to get involved in looking at these 0:44:10.080 --> 0:44:10.760 working conditions. 0:44:10.800 --> 0:44:12.960 What's the bigger solution though, because to me, I'm thinking, 0:44:13.000 --> 0:44:14.840 all right, if we're bringing a lot of stuff home, 0:44:14.920 --> 0:44:16.799 maybe more jobs are going to be created back home, 0:44:16.800 --> 0:44:19.040 but it's going to be more expensive, So get ready 0:44:19.080 --> 0:44:22.360 to continue to pay more money. But if it means 0:44:22.400 --> 0:44:25.320 that workers are actually making more and a real living, 0:44:25.560 --> 0:44:27.080 that's a good thing. So I don't know, I'm just 0:44:27.080 --> 0:44:28.720 trying to figure out what you see is Wait. 0:44:28.560 --> 0:44:32.000 In some cases, if we shift production from China to 0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:34.480 other countries where wagers higher, if we bring some of 0:44:34.520 --> 0:44:37.319 it back to the US, that that'll mostly be automation. Yeah, 0:44:37.360 --> 0:44:39.839 the costs for some things are going to go up. 0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:41.640 Some things may go now, and some things may go up. 0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:44.360 But what is the cost that we're paying now that 0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:47.160 doesn't get factored into the simple you know, sticker price 0:44:47.200 --> 0:44:49.680 with the Walmart Superstar. What's the cost of running out 0:44:49.719 --> 0:44:52.399 of medical devices in the middle of a pandemic. What's 0:44:52.440 --> 0:44:55.520 the cost of discovering that we've depended upon a single 0:44:55.560 --> 0:44:58.319 country that we've decided is our adversary, that we're having 0:44:58.320 --> 0:45:01.080 a trade war with for you know, personal protective gear 0:45:01.080 --> 0:45:02.800 to give frontline medical whim. 0:45:02.520 --> 0:45:04.920 That's really changed, right dramatically or. 0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:07.719 Have changed somewhat. I mean I spent a lot of 0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:10.400 time for the book. You know, I went to Guatemala 0:45:10.440 --> 0:45:13.680 with Columbia Sportswear. They're looking to move production closer to 0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:16.080 their biggest market, which is North America. Spent a lot 0:45:16.120 --> 0:45:18.520 of time in Mexico looking, you know, as we've discussed 0:45:18.560 --> 0:45:20.840 how that could potentially be part of this solution to 0:45:20.880 --> 0:45:23.600 our excessive reliance on China. But China's going to be 0:45:23.920 --> 0:45:27.080 the center of manufacturing for a really long time for 0:45:27.080 --> 0:45:30.200 the simple reason that's got this unbeatable combination of infrastructure, 0:45:30.320 --> 0:45:32.120 low cost efficiency. 0:45:32.320 --> 0:45:34.000 The question is how do. 0:45:34.040 --> 0:45:37.920 We compensate the people who were depending on in our 0:45:38.000 --> 0:45:41.880 own country. And you know, Henry Ford again problematic character 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:44.600 for all sorts of reasons, but he got some things right. 0:45:44.640 --> 0:45:46.920 You know, he doubled wages for his workers in the 0:45:47.000 --> 0:45:49.280 nineteen teens. He was called a communist by some people. 0:45:49.480 --> 0:45:51.400 He said, look, I'm just trying to sell cars, and 0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:53.600 I'm trying to sell them at low prices. And any 0:45:53.640 --> 0:45:58.120 business that's built on low wage labor is unreliable. 0:45:57.760 --> 0:46:00.480 Away from the government. Is there a role for organized 0:46:00.560 --> 0:46:01.160 labor in this. 0:46:01.400 --> 0:46:04.120 Oh, one hundred percent. I mean we should be embracing 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:09.160 labor mobilization. I mean it's bumpy, it does involve higher costs. 0:46:09.160 --> 0:46:11.680 If you're running a business, you're you're not delighted that 0:46:11.719 --> 0:46:14.799 your union is now animated. But first of all, it 0:46:14.840 --> 0:46:19.680 puts spending capacity in people's pockets, right, It boosts consumer power, 0:46:19.920 --> 0:46:22.799 which is good for all businesses. And it's simply more 0:46:22.840 --> 0:46:25.399 reliable if people aren't are at work not worried about 0:46:25.440 --> 0:46:27.120 their ability to put groceries on there. 0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:29.320 I was thinking about that when I read about precision 0:46:29.360 --> 0:46:33.160 scheduled railroading in your book, because those were union guys, right, right, 0:46:33.280 --> 0:46:35.319 But they had a pretty tough gig too, So well, 0:46:35.320 --> 0:46:35.799 some of them are. 0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:37.719 So you wrote about people. 0:46:37.400 --> 0:46:40.160 Who missed medical appointments and funerals and like, we're driving 0:46:40.160 --> 0:46:42.759 so far from their homes in that business. Were the 0:46:42.880 --> 0:46:45.319 unionized folks who were doing that in a much better 0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:47.480 position than the non unionized ones. I mean that's a 0:46:47.480 --> 0:46:48.120 tough gig too. 0:46:48.200 --> 0:46:50.799 Look, the unions, you know, we're ready to go on 0:46:50.880 --> 0:46:53.680 strike and couldn't go on strike because there's this law 0:46:53.680 --> 0:46:56.320 that says they have to basically get the president's permission 0:46:56.400 --> 0:46:58.680 to strike, and the president didn't grant that permission because 0:46:58.680 --> 0:47:00.480 it would have been a shock to this. It would 0:47:00.520 --> 0:47:02.720 have uped inflation, and that wasn't something that Joe Biden 0:47:02.760 --> 0:47:06.200 wanted to happen on his watch. But even you know, 0:47:06.320 --> 0:47:09.239 this this powerful union that got right to the edge 0:47:09.239 --> 0:47:10.080 of strike. 0:47:09.960 --> 0:47:13.080 They couldn't get paid sick leave. You know, Biden gave. 0:47:12.960 --> 0:47:15.440 It to them through the bully pulpit, and some of 0:47:15.440 --> 0:47:17.759 the companies then delivered a few days. But yes, I 0:47:17.840 --> 0:47:21.520 talked to people who were missing out. In one case, 0:47:21.520 --> 0:47:25.800 a guy who's who's infant, you know, needed cardiac surgery 0:47:26.040 --> 0:47:28.680 and he was told, sorry, pal, you know we need 0:47:28.719 --> 0:47:31.080 you on the maintenance crew. You can't be home for that. 0:47:31.120 --> 0:47:34.040 And then he finally quit and fired off a letter Yeah, 0:47:34.080 --> 0:47:35.480 go ahead, no, but so much for. 0:47:35.560 --> 0:47:37.759 Like was it a few years ago? The business round table, 0:47:37.840 --> 0:47:40.680 stakeholder like, think of all the stakeholders, including employees. 0:47:40.719 --> 0:47:41.560 That's my last book. 0:47:41.640 --> 0:47:44.120 We only have, I know, twenty seconds left. Are we 0:47:44.160 --> 0:47:46.040 going to run out of things again? At some point? 0:47:46.280 --> 0:47:48.960 Yes, you know, talk to contractors about why they can't 0:47:48.960 --> 0:47:51.359 build more housing. It's part of white housing so unaffordable. 0:47:51.520 --> 0:47:53.759 This was so much fun, So appreciate it. Thank you 0:47:53.800 --> 0:47:56.920 so much. Peter Goodman, global economic correspondent New York Times 0:47:56.920 --> 0:47:59.120 his new book How the World Ran Out of Everything, 0:47:59.280 --> 0:48:01.680 and then thanks to our Doug Krisner too. We really 0:48:01.680 --> 0:48:03.120 appreciate you coming to reading. 0:48:03.160 --> 0:48:07.560 You you're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch 0:48:07.640 --> 0:48:10.560 us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm. Easter 0:48:10.760 --> 0:48:13.200 Listen on Apple car Play and and Broud Auto with 0:48:13.200 --> 0:48:17.040 a Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:48:17.680 --> 0:48:20.600 We continue with our summer reading pick number three, courtesy 0:48:20.640 --> 0:48:23.920 of our Business Week Weekend and Remote broadcast producer Sebastian Escobar, 0:48:24.239 --> 0:48:26.880 who says this next book truly puts into perspective the 0:48:27.000 --> 0:48:31.480 power humanity holds to radically advance or even destroy our future, 0:48:31.960 --> 0:48:34.160 and that the question now is not whether we should 0:48:34.239 --> 0:48:36.920 use these powers, but how best to use them. 0:48:37.040 --> 0:48:40.360 Sebastian's choice comes from Jamie Metzel, who's the author of 0:48:40.520 --> 0:48:43.880 Hacking Darwin, Genetic Engineering in the Future of Humanity and 0:48:43.960 --> 0:48:47.040 four other books. Jamie also served in the US National 0:48:47.080 --> 0:48:50.839 Security Council, State Department, and Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and 0:48:50.920 --> 0:48:52.759 with the United Nations in Cambodia. 0:48:52.840 --> 0:48:54.840 He was also a member of the World Health Organization 0:48:55.000 --> 0:48:58.760 Expert Advisory Committee on Human Genome Editing, and currently Jammie 0:48:58.800 --> 0:49:01.279 works as a Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council and 0:49:01.320 --> 0:49:03.960 founder and chair of the nonprofit on Shared World. 0:49:04.239 --> 0:49:06.759 The book that Sebastian picked is Jamie's latest It's a 0:49:06.800 --> 0:49:10.040 book that explores the ways humanity can utilize technology for 0:49:10.160 --> 0:49:13.680 building a better world or potentially cause more harm. The 0:49:13.719 --> 0:49:18.200 book super Convergence How the genetics, biotech, and AI revolutions 0:49:18.239 --> 0:49:20.720 will transform our lives, work, and world. 0:49:21.239 --> 0:49:24.480 So this book, in many ways, it's the culmination kind 0:49:24.560 --> 0:49:29.239 of my entire life, and I'm trying to ask the 0:49:29.360 --> 0:49:32.719 question is what do we do and how do we 0:49:33.000 --> 0:49:36.560 manage these two most fundamental transformations of our lives? And 0:49:36.600 --> 0:49:39.400 those two transformations are this is the moment, after three 0:49:39.440 --> 0:49:43.200 point eight billion years of life on Earth, that our 0:49:43.320 --> 0:49:48.040 one species has developed these two transformational superpowers, and that's 0:49:48.080 --> 0:49:52.759 we are creating novel intelligence and have developed the capacity 0:49:52.880 --> 0:49:55.600 to recast all of life. 0:49:55.239 --> 0:49:56.200 Including our own. 0:49:56.400 --> 0:49:59.279 And the one question that's going to determine whether our 0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:03.600 species thrives in the future or doesn't is whether we 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:09.080 can use these new godlike superpowers wisely. And a Carol, 0:50:09.120 --> 0:50:12.160 you mentioned my last book, Hacking Darwin, was all about 0:50:12.160 --> 0:50:15.239 the future of human genetic engineering. And then I was, 0:50:15.320 --> 0:50:18.120 as you and I have discussed, deeply involved in issues 0:50:18.120 --> 0:50:19.759 of pandemic origins. 0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:21.680 I was a member of the World. 0:50:21.560 --> 0:50:24.440 Health Organization Expert Committee on Human Genome Mediting after the 0:50:24.440 --> 0:50:28.279 first Crisper babies were born, and so I definitely am 0:50:28.360 --> 0:50:32.160 deeply involved in the science of what these intersecting AI 0:50:32.239 --> 0:50:39.040 genetics and biotechnology revolutions mean. And then the applications healthcare, agriculture, manufacturing, 0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:41.200 data storage. 0:50:40.920 --> 0:50:43.239 And lots of other things. But then the question is, well, 0:50:43.280 --> 0:50:44.000 how do we do it? 0:50:44.239 --> 0:50:46.360 And so one is we need to be very cognizant 0:50:46.440 --> 0:50:48.920 of the dangers which are very real, and then we 0:50:48.920 --> 0:50:50.920 need to say what's the path forward, how do. 0:50:50.880 --> 0:50:52.160 We do this wisely? 0:50:52.200 --> 0:50:54.640 And what are the building blocks of getting to the 0:50:54.680 --> 0:50:56.399 place where we want to be, Because if we get 0:50:56.400 --> 0:51:01.120 this right, we can have much better healthcare, more abundant 0:51:01.160 --> 0:51:03.680 foods for everybody around. 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:04.759 The world, and all kinds of wonderful things. 0:51:04.840 --> 0:51:07.480 And we get it wrong right, we can get sin 0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:11.839 bio pandemics, we can crash ecosystems, we can undermine our 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:13.040 very humanity. 0:51:13.040 --> 0:51:14.520 And that's why I've written a book for everyone. 0:51:14.520 --> 0:51:16.840 I want people to take this book to the beach 0:51:16.920 --> 0:51:19.600 and be comfortable and having fun reading it on the beach. 0:51:19.719 --> 0:51:19.880 They go. 0:51:20.000 --> 0:51:23.120 That was a really easy read, but I actually learned 0:51:23.160 --> 0:51:25.560 a lot and it sparked a lot of meaningful conversations. 0:51:25.640 --> 0:51:28.000 I have to say that I have been watching though 0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:31.800 a video you did where you talked about the book. 0:51:32.360 --> 0:51:36.440 You're in San Jose, California. You're competing in an ultra marathon. 0:51:37.080 --> 0:51:40.480 It's raining. You talk about your hands getting dumb, you're 0:51:40.520 --> 0:51:42.440 sniffling because it's cold, it's raining. 0:51:42.719 --> 0:51:43.640 Are you walking and running? 0:51:43.719 --> 0:51:44.000 Jamie? 0:51:44.120 --> 0:51:46.759 Just to clarify it here, it looks like it looks like. 0:51:47.120 --> 0:51:50.560 I say, I am so honored that you are sharing 0:51:50.640 --> 0:51:53.680 this with your viewers. So for those of you who 0:51:53.760 --> 0:51:56.960 don't do ultra marathons, ultra marathons are hard. Ultra marathon 0:51:57.000 --> 0:51:58.799 is a race longer than a marathon. The ones that 0:51:58.840 --> 0:52:04.160 I do are fifty kilometers thirty thirty two mile races, 0:52:04.160 --> 0:52:06.960 and I do mountain trail runs. And I was in 0:52:07.000 --> 0:52:10.080 San Jose speaking at Sin Bio Beta, which is the 0:52:10.080 --> 0:52:13.960 big synthetic biology conference that my friend John Cumbers runs, 0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:16.440 and I thought, oh, this is gonna be easy, famous 0:52:16.520 --> 0:52:18.319 last words. I'm just gonna go the day before the 0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:20.560 conference and I'll run this race San Jose. 0:52:20.680 --> 0:52:22.880 The weather's perfect, How big could the hills be? 0:52:23.440 --> 0:52:25.799 So it turns out the hills were pretty big, and 0:52:25.880 --> 0:52:30.240 it turned out they had this uncharacteristic freezing like rainy, 0:52:30.400 --> 0:52:35.320 slushy storm. And it was like, I'm so much older 0:52:35.320 --> 0:52:37.160 than you guys, but you know what a three hour 0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:37.839 tour means. 0:52:37.840 --> 0:52:41.319 When you know this is gonna be easy. Island like 0:52:41.320 --> 0:52:43.160 a three It was a three hour tour. 0:52:43.520 --> 0:52:45.960 And so then I knew that I had somebody had 0:52:46.000 --> 0:52:48.440 asked me to record a video about the book. And 0:52:48.480 --> 0:52:51.920 I was walking up this hill at mile like thirty 0:52:52.239 --> 0:52:53.279 and it was kind of this. 0:52:53.320 --> 0:52:57.080 Straight up you know, I'm what can I do record? 0:52:57.280 --> 0:52:59.080 It's like, you're insane at those homes. 0:52:59.239 --> 0:53:02.160 I'm going to record to record a video about this book. 0:53:02.200 --> 0:53:03.880 That seems like a good idea. 0:53:03.920 --> 0:53:04.520 So I didn't. 0:53:05.120 --> 0:53:07.400 Well, I was thinking about watching it and I was 0:53:07.480 --> 0:53:09.799 like it, Peel, you know, you know when you're out 0:53:09.800 --> 0:53:13.279 in nature, you said times for me, my brain opens up. 0:53:13.360 --> 0:53:16.200 I think differently, maybe more clearly, about some of the 0:53:16.239 --> 0:53:19.480 big ideas and trends and innovations, disruptions, whatever the heck 0:53:19.480 --> 0:53:20.840 you want to call them, that are coming at us 0:53:20.880 --> 0:53:24.200 big time. How do you cross nature with some of 0:53:24.200 --> 0:53:26.960 these dynamic trends that are coming us that will clearly 0:53:27.760 --> 0:53:32.319 test kind of natural evolutionary theory that is dominated for 0:53:32.400 --> 0:53:33.040 so long. 0:53:34.080 --> 0:53:36.840 This is why you're such a great journalist, Carol, to 0:53:36.920 --> 0:53:39.279 make such a smooth transition as that one. 0:53:39.320 --> 0:53:42.400 And what I'll say is the things that we. 0:53:42.320 --> 0:53:45.640 Call nature aren't natural. 0:53:46.200 --> 0:53:48.080 If you go to Whole Foods. 0:53:47.719 --> 0:53:50.520 And go to the fruits and vegetables section, you would 0:53:50.560 --> 0:53:53.960 be hard pressed to find a fruit or a vegetable 0:53:54.480 --> 0:53:59.080 that twenty thousand years ago existed in anything like its 0:53:59.120 --> 0:53:59.680 current form. 0:53:59.840 --> 0:54:01.360 Almost doesn't exist. 0:54:01.360 --> 0:54:04.600 Maybe there's one or two things if you like, when 0:54:04.600 --> 0:54:06.960 I was out hiking in San Jose, it seemed like 0:54:07.080 --> 0:54:09.480 nature because there were a lot of trees. But nay, 0:54:09.680 --> 0:54:12.120 if we mean by nature what it was like before 0:54:12.200 --> 0:54:16.239 humans changed everything, Like, no one went hiking just for 0:54:16.320 --> 0:54:19.520 fun because the saber toothed hiker will eat you if 0:54:19.560 --> 0:54:21.719 you do that. And so the thing that we call 0:54:21.840 --> 0:54:25.880 nature is just the world that our ancestors managed and 0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:29.840 manipulated like you're your dog. That your dog didn't exist 0:54:29.960 --> 0:54:31.800 fifty thousand years ago in this. 0:54:33.160 --> 0:54:36.240 In this format, and so what. And even if you are. 0:54:36.160 --> 0:54:40.400 The most indigenous farmer in the highlands of Peru ma 0:54:40.600 --> 0:54:44.960 it making growing quinoa from ancient varieties of seeds, you 0:54:45.000 --> 0:54:49.719 are a radical biotechnologist. Much more the difference between the 0:54:49.760 --> 0:54:54.480 precursors to our domesticated crops and our current non GMO 0:54:54.680 --> 0:54:58.120 corn and our current GMO corn. The difference between the 0:54:59.120 --> 0:55:04.280 precursors corn is way more than the minuscule difference between 0:55:04.400 --> 0:55:07.480 current corn and GMO. So the starting point for this 0:55:07.560 --> 0:55:09.879 has to be the choice that we are making as 0:55:09.880 --> 0:55:14.120 a species is not natural versus unnatural. It's how do 0:55:14.160 --> 0:55:17.960 we interact with the living world that we have been 0:55:18.000 --> 0:55:21.600 managing and manipulating for thousands of years and do so 0:55:21.760 --> 0:55:27.640 in the smartest, most economical, safest, most sustainable way to 0:55:27.800 --> 0:55:29.560 achieve the things that we want to achieve. 0:55:29.560 --> 0:55:30.239 And what are those things? 0:55:30.239 --> 0:55:33.120 Well, we don't want to die of terrible cancer. 0:55:33.719 --> 0:55:35.600 We want to have gene therapy. 0:55:35.680 --> 0:55:38.320 So somebody who's born with something like sickle cell disease 0:55:38.880 --> 0:55:42.080 rather than living a life of excruciating pain and then 0:55:42.160 --> 0:55:45.279 dying prematurely and live a normal life. We want to 0:55:45.440 --> 0:55:49.080 grow more crops on less land to feed more people. 0:55:49.160 --> 0:55:52.080 So, Jamie, my question for you is, after doing the 0:55:52.120 --> 0:55:54.360 research and reporting for this book in your other books, 0:55:54.760 --> 0:55:56.880 how do you live your life differently? What do you 0:55:56.960 --> 0:55:59.480 eat that's different? What do you do that's different than 0:55:59.480 --> 0:56:01.239 you used to do now that you found all this 0:56:01.280 --> 0:56:01.880 through research? 0:56:02.680 --> 0:56:03.000 Yeah? 0:56:03.040 --> 0:56:05.080 So you know, it's funny people ask me this a 0:56:05.080 --> 0:56:08.160 lot because I'm deeply involved in the world of, for example, 0:56:08.239 --> 0:56:10.040 the science of human life extension. 0:56:10.120 --> 0:56:11.680 And everyone says, oh, you must. 0:56:11.440 --> 0:56:15.279 Be taking the nad bus boosters and med foreman, and 0:56:15.320 --> 0:56:18.800 you must be like doing like the thing where they 0:56:19.520 --> 0:56:22.440 cut open the old and young mice and sew them together. 0:56:22.480 --> 0:56:23.800 You must be. 0:56:23.360 --> 0:56:26.719 Doing that with I don't know who, or your girlfriend 0:56:27.000 --> 0:56:29.719 or something, And I don't do any of that. What 0:56:29.760 --> 0:56:31.800 I do is a few things. 0:56:31.960 --> 0:56:35.080 One just in terms of my personal life. I exercise 0:56:35.160 --> 0:56:37.000 an hour a day and eat healthy and do all 0:56:37.040 --> 0:56:40.799 those blue zone things that everybody knows you're supposed to 0:56:40.840 --> 0:56:45.800 do and are hard to do. Certainly in my healthcare 0:56:46.280 --> 0:56:48.080 I try to get ahead of the curve because I 0:56:48.080 --> 0:56:50.080 write about the future of healthcare in the book, and 0:56:50.520 --> 0:56:53.040 where we're going is from our current world of healthcare 0:56:53.080 --> 0:56:55.880 based on population averages. You have a headache, and you 0:56:56.000 --> 0:56:58.480 go to CVS and you pick up a title and 0:56:58.520 --> 0:57:02.880 all to our new world of health care precision or 0:57:02.880 --> 0:57:05.960 personalized health care based on each person's individual biology. Because 0:57:06.200 --> 0:57:08.120 you know a small percentage of people who take a 0:57:08.160 --> 0:57:10.319 tile and I will have a terrible adverse reaction and 0:57:10.320 --> 0:57:13.080 could even die. And so better to know you're one 0:57:13.080 --> 0:57:15.279 of those people before you take the tile. And that's 0:57:15.320 --> 0:57:18.520 true for cancer therapies and all of that. So we're 0:57:18.840 --> 0:57:22.200 in that process, we're gaining a lot of information about 0:57:22.440 --> 0:57:25.800 systems biology, so the complexity of human biology. 0:57:26.000 --> 0:57:26.240 Right. 0:57:26.320 --> 0:57:28.720 And then where that's the next shift in our healthcare, 0:57:28.720 --> 0:57:33.160 which is from precision to predictive and preventive. Where with 0:57:33.280 --> 0:57:35.960 all of this data and the formula for all of 0:57:35.960 --> 0:57:39.080 this stuff is the more high quality data you have, 0:57:39.680 --> 0:57:42.880 the more computing power, right, stronger algorithms, the more we're. 0:57:42.720 --> 0:57:45.200 Going to be able to decipher actionable patterns. 0:57:45.240 --> 0:57:47.480 That's going to change health care and industry and agriculture 0:57:47.480 --> 0:57:48.000 and everything. 0:57:48.320 --> 0:57:50.320 One thing I wanted to ask you the way the 0:57:50.320 --> 0:57:52.880 books starts, you have two quotes. But you say, this 0:57:52.960 --> 0:57:55.560 is from Stuart Brand, we are as gods and might 0:57:55.600 --> 0:57:58.560 as well get good at it. What's the message there? 0:57:58.680 --> 0:57:59.960 It feels pretty powerful. 0:58:00.720 --> 0:58:07.200 For millennia, our ancestors imagined these all powerful gods that 0:58:07.320 --> 0:58:11.560 could create new stuff, They could recast life, they could 0:58:11.760 --> 0:58:16.400 grant people's wishes to live extra life, they could transform 0:58:16.480 --> 0:58:20.400 the world around them. We can now do all of 0:58:20.440 --> 0:58:23.280 those things. So we are in many ways not and 0:58:23.320 --> 0:58:26.920 always in manaze. We are the all powerful gods that 0:58:26.960 --> 0:58:31.040 we have imagined in our past. And just like we've 0:58:31.080 --> 0:58:35.680 imagined those gods can build and destroy, we can build 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:38.400 and destroy. And so now we have these superpowers, and 0:58:38.520 --> 0:58:40.800 the question is are we going to use them to 0:58:41.000 --> 0:58:45.160 build to make a better future for us individually, for 0:58:45.280 --> 0:58:48.560 our companies, for our countries, and for our world, and 0:58:48.600 --> 0:58:52.400 do it in really practical ways, or are we just 0:58:52.480 --> 0:58:55.160 going to not do what needs to be to not 0:58:55.320 --> 0:59:00.760 create the right frameworks and governance and values and accountability 0:59:00.760 --> 0:59:03.400 and all the things that are required to make sure 0:59:03.480 --> 0:59:07.120 this story has as happy of a process there's no 0:59:07.240 --> 0:59:10.560 ending process as possible. If we don't do those things, 0:59:10.560 --> 0:59:12.640 we're really going to be in trouble and That's why 0:59:12.960 --> 0:59:15.640 I've written the book. That's why I'm so passionate about 0:59:15.680 --> 0:59:20.560 bringing everybody into this conversation because it's in the early 0:59:20.600 --> 0:59:23.840 when you're doing anything, starting a company, That's when you 0:59:23.880 --> 0:59:26.040 need to say, hey, here's what we stand for, here 0:59:26.120 --> 0:59:29.920 are our values right, and then everything gets built on that. 0:59:30.000 --> 0:59:32.400 If we don't have a conversation of what we're trying 0:59:32.400 --> 0:59:34.919 to achieve, who we are, and what are the core 0:59:35.000 --> 0:59:36.880 values that are going to guide us. If we make 0:59:36.920 --> 0:59:40.480 this a conversation just about the technology itself, We're going 0:59:40.520 --> 0:59:43.320 to wind up in a very unfamiliar and most likely 0:59:43.360 --> 0:59:43.920 scary place. 0:59:44.000 --> 0:59:46.480 I have to say, I'm already scared because I question 0:59:46.680 --> 0:59:49.920 the moral values and ethics that I feel like people 0:59:49.920 --> 0:59:54.000 have really lost. I want to ask you, genetics, biotech, AI, 0:59:54.520 --> 0:59:58.200 what worries you the most that we could get wrong. 0:59:58.640 --> 1:00:04.240 There is a reason why anxiety has been preserved by evolution. 1:00:04.840 --> 1:00:08.240 Anxiety is actually a really healthy emotion for us and 1:00:08.320 --> 1:00:11.800 for every animal, because we're afraid of things, and that 1:00:11.920 --> 1:00:14.680 is what inspires us to say, Hey, this terrible thing 1:00:14.840 --> 1:00:17.720 could happen. I could be eaten by some horrible animal. 1:00:18.000 --> 1:00:21.360 So I'm going to start planning so that that doesn't happen, 1:00:21.680 --> 1:00:24.120 and so these fears that we have. I mean, there's 1:00:24.160 --> 1:00:26.800 some people who are just such techno optimists. They say, 1:00:26.880 --> 1:00:28.840 just do nothing in the future is going to be great. 1:00:28.880 --> 1:00:31.640 That is not true. Bad things could happen. We need 1:00:31.640 --> 1:00:34.480 to be honest now about what they are. A few 1:00:34.480 --> 1:00:36.480 of them that I highlight in the book. One, as 1:00:36.720 --> 1:00:39.240 I mentioned, I was a member of the World Health 1:00:39.320 --> 1:00:44.080 Organization Expert Advisory Committee on Human Genome and doctor Teddros 1:00:44.240 --> 1:00:47.680 the director of the who created that after the world's 1:00:47.680 --> 1:00:50.400 first crisper babies were born in China in twenty eighteen. 1:00:50.400 --> 1:00:51.760 That was a terrible violation. 1:00:52.280 --> 1:00:54.760 If we just say, hey, let's just do whatever willy 1:00:54.840 --> 1:00:58.800 nilly human experimentation, we're going to wind up with more 1:00:58.880 --> 1:01:02.920 Nuremberg Trial and those kinds of violations. We have the 1:01:02.960 --> 1:01:07.160 capacity to use gene drives, which is basically we put 1:01:07.480 --> 1:01:12.720 a little molecular scissors almost into the sex cells that 1:01:12.840 --> 1:01:16.320 pass between animals, and we could use it to wipe 1:01:16.400 --> 1:01:19.120 out mallarial mosquitoes, and that would be great. 1:01:19.120 --> 1:01:20.640 We could save a million lives per year. 1:01:21.200 --> 1:01:25.440 But we don't know how these full ecosystems work, and 1:01:25.520 --> 1:01:29.160 if we're not careful we could also crash whole ecosystems, 1:01:29.200 --> 1:01:31.760 not because we're trying to do harm, because we're trying 1:01:31.800 --> 1:01:34.240 to do good. And as you and I have talked 1:01:34.240 --> 1:01:37.280 about this before, Carol, but I've been in the middle 1:01:37.760 --> 1:01:39.600 for the last almost four and a half years of 1:01:39.600 --> 1:01:42.680 this debate about COVID nineteen origins, and it's my view 1:01:42.720 --> 1:01:47.280 that the preponderance of the available evidence suggests a research 1:01:47.360 --> 1:01:51.440 related origin in Wuhan. And it's very likely that these 1:01:51.520 --> 1:01:54.400 Chinese scientists who weren't trying to create bioweapons, but were 1:01:54.400 --> 1:01:58.440 most likely trying to create a pan coronavirus vaccine and 1:01:58.520 --> 1:02:01.480 had an accident and didn't realize what had happened, and 1:02:01.520 --> 1:02:05.280 then things got worse and worse. So it's not just 1:02:05.320 --> 1:02:08.920 that we're going to have doctor evil doing bad stuff. 1:02:08.960 --> 1:02:11.880 It could be that well intentioned people, people who are. 1:02:12.080 --> 1:02:18.080 Trying to prevent terrible diseases, or to stop malarial mosquitos, 1:02:18.160 --> 1:02:20.640 or all sorts of things. And that's why, again and 1:02:20.680 --> 1:02:22.520 again I keep going back to values. 1:02:23.000 --> 1:02:25.280 It's establishing the north star where are we heading? 1:02:25.480 --> 1:02:27.040 That makes us think about Tim and I talk a 1:02:27.040 --> 1:02:27.720 lot about AI. 1:02:27.920 --> 1:02:30.280 Yeah, So Jamie, my question for you is where could 1:02:30.320 --> 1:02:32.920 AI go wrong and where what are the indications? And 1:02:32.960 --> 1:02:34.600 now about the direction that it's moving in. 1:02:34.920 --> 1:02:38.000 AI, Like, all of these technologies can be used for 1:02:38.120 --> 1:02:41.080 good or for ill, and we're seeing both of those 1:02:41.120 --> 1:02:45.760 things right now. We're seeing AI being applied in healthcare 1:02:45.800 --> 1:02:49.400 settings and agriculture and all these other areas in companies 1:02:49.440 --> 1:02:53.720 and it's helping solve real problems in very practical ways. 1:02:54.280 --> 1:03:00.360 And we're seeing deep fakes, manipulations, all kinds of of 1:03:00.640 --> 1:03:01.720 problems with AI. 1:03:01.840 --> 1:03:03.920 And these are just the early days. 1:03:04.480 --> 1:03:07.240 And right now when people think about AI, most people think, 1:03:07.280 --> 1:03:10.120 oh AI equals chat GPT, like, I'm going to go 1:03:10.160 --> 1:03:13.320 to this website and then I'm gonna do AI. But 1:03:13.400 --> 1:03:16.040 if I were to ask you, guys, how did electricity 1:03:16.120 --> 1:03:20.880 influence your life today, It's an unanswerable question because electricity 1:03:20.920 --> 1:03:23.200 it's in your alarm clock, it's in your house, it's 1:03:23.200 --> 1:03:26.440 in your air conditioning, it's in the microphone, it's in 1:03:26.480 --> 1:03:29.880 our clothes, it's in our haircuts. It's just electricity is 1:03:30.000 --> 1:03:33.560 part of everything that we do. And these technologies are 1:03:33.560 --> 1:03:35.760 going to be part of everything that we do, part 1:03:35.800 --> 1:03:40.320 of our accounting systems, our interacting systems, how we interact 1:03:40.400 --> 1:03:45.080 with the world how everything is made, and that's why 1:03:45.080 --> 1:03:50.480 we need to think systemically and systematically about about these 1:03:50.680 --> 1:03:52.880 these technologies. And there are some of these people say, oh, 1:03:52.920 --> 1:03:55.440 just no regulation. Yeah, government, get out of the way. 1:03:55.480 --> 1:03:58.280 That's the last thing we need. We need wise governance 1:03:58.440 --> 1:03:59.880 and whise regulation. Yeah. 1:04:00.040 --> 1:04:02.280 Everything. Well, my dad, you say everything in moderation. I 1:04:02.320 --> 1:04:04.360 know everybody's dad says that or mom says that, but 1:04:04.840 --> 1:04:08.160 it's also everything. Like you gotta have some oversight of 1:04:08.240 --> 1:04:11.840 all this stuff. Jamie, good luck, so much fun to 1:04:11.840 --> 1:04:14.400 catch up with you again. Thank you so much for 1:04:14.440 --> 1:04:17.320 finding time for us once again here at Bloomberg. Jamie, 1:04:17.360 --> 1:04:18.120 take care, be well. 1:04:18.480 --> 1:04:20.800 Good luck also in the future Ultra Marathon. 1:04:20.880 --> 1:04:23.520 I know he's pretty impressive. I love I highly recommend 1:04:23.520 --> 1:04:25.360 you check out that YouTube video because he really does 1:04:25.400 --> 1:04:27.080 go through so much of the book and like I said, 1:04:27.120 --> 1:04:30.160 it's raining, there's mud. Jamie is, of course, senior fellow 1:04:30.200 --> 1:04:32.280 at the Atlanta Council, founder and chair of the nonprofit 1:04:32.320 --> 1:04:35.480 One Shared World. Check out his new book, super Convergence, 1:04:35.520 --> 1:04:38.640 How the genetics, biotech and AI revolutions will transform our 1:04:38.680 --> 1:04:40.440 lives working world. It's coming out on Tuesday. 1:04:40.720 --> 1:04:43.720 He'd spend a few times with us during COVID. Yeah, 1:04:43.800 --> 1:04:46.800 came on talking because, as he mentioned, he looked very 1:04:46.800 --> 1:04:48.800 closely and has been looking very closely at their origins, 1:04:48.800 --> 1:04:50.280 so we had him on a few times sixty minutes. 1:04:50.320 --> 1:04:52.560 Has done a big piece on certainly his thinking. There 1:04:52.600 --> 1:04:53.800 so fun things. 1:04:56.400 --> 1:05:00.600 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast live each 1:05:00.600 --> 1:05:03.720 weekday starting at two pm Eastern on applecar Play and 1:05:03.720 --> 1:05:06.760 Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You can also 1:05:06.800 --> 1:05:10.000 listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York 1:05:10.040 --> 1:05:13.400 station Just Say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven. 1:05:13.120 --> 1:05:15.920 Thirty plenty a head in our second hour of our 1:05:15.920 --> 1:05:18.919 weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. Our team summer reading 1:05:18.960 --> 1:05:22.320 list continues, including the book about the individual who left 1:05:22.320 --> 1:05:24.880 a cult and her family, made her way on Wall 1:05:24.920 --> 1:05:28.160 Street when it wasn't so easy for a woman, and 1:05:28.360 --> 1:05:30.160 earned a nickname along the way. 1:05:30.520 --> 1:05:33.280 Also from Colonel Sanders and mel Brooks and Norman Lear 1:05:33.440 --> 1:05:37.000 to Carol Channing, Rita Moreno and Henri Matisse, The Rock 1:05:37.080 --> 1:05:40.400 to Genarians that are rocking their later years, and Carol's 1:05:40.440 --> 1:05:43.560 pick no surprise as the sailor of the group, her 1:05:43.600 --> 1:05:48.160 selection sailing alone, A surprising history of Isolation and Survival 1:05:48.200 --> 1:05:48.800 at Sea. 1:05:48.840 --> 1:05:50.680 First up this hour, though, let's get to the fourth 1:05:50.680 --> 1:05:52.960 book on our summer reading list, This one from our 1:05:53.000 --> 1:05:57.040 YouTube producer Elizabeth Sedrin, who says Patricia Walsh Chadwick had 1:05:57.080 --> 1:05:59.840 a compelling story of leaving a cult and then climbing 1:05:59.880 --> 1:06:02.600 the corporate investment ladder, and that she had a smart 1:06:02.680 --> 1:06:06.560 perspective on investment cycles while not leaning into girl boss rhetoric. 1:06:06.600 --> 1:06:10.800 Sounds like, Elizabeth, well, we've got your attention right. Chadwick 1:06:10.840 --> 1:06:13.160 started as a receptionist at a brokerage firm at the 1:06:13.200 --> 1:06:15.840 age of nineteen, and thirty years later was named a 1:06:15.880 --> 1:06:19.040 global partner at Invesco. Needless to say, she's seen a 1:06:19.040 --> 1:06:21.320 lot of eras and cycles on Wall Street. It's in 1:06:21.400 --> 1:06:23.920 her book Breaking Glass Tales from the Witch of Wall Street. 1:06:23.960 --> 1:06:26.280 Here's Patricia Walls Chadwick with her story. 1:06:26.840 --> 1:06:28.440 I did not know I was called the Witch of 1:06:28.520 --> 1:06:32.080 Wall Street until five years ago, and I was bit serious. 1:06:32.160 --> 1:06:35.120 I am serious. It was my seventieth birthday party, I 1:06:35.160 --> 1:06:37.680 don't mind saying that. And there was a woman who 1:06:37.720 --> 1:06:40.360 said she had met meate in nineteen eighty five. I 1:06:40.440 --> 1:06:43.200 remembered it well, and she was with Bear Stearns, and 1:06:43.280 --> 1:06:46.080 she told me that she was told by the institut 1:06:46.120 --> 1:06:49.560 of Institutional Sales. We have a very big, important count 1:06:49.560 --> 1:06:51.360 at City Bank. One woman runs a lot of the 1:06:51.400 --> 1:06:54.000 money there. But we have a problem. The men are 1:06:54.040 --> 1:06:57.880 afraid of her. These are the institutional salespeople. Because apparently 1:06:57.960 --> 1:07:00.520 I was fairly demanding, but that was my job. So 1:07:01.120 --> 1:07:03.160 she said, I had heard of this woman, but I 1:07:03.200 --> 1:07:05.200 had never met her, and all I knew was on 1:07:05.240 --> 1:07:07.680 the trading floor. They called her the Witch of Wall Street. 1:07:08.040 --> 1:07:10.840 And I was oblivious, and I only heard that five 1:07:10.920 --> 1:07:13.160 years ago. Been out of Wall Street for a long time. 1:07:13.440 --> 1:07:15.800 I was shocked, I really was. And then I thought 1:07:15.800 --> 1:07:17.880 about it for a while and I thought, okay, so 1:07:18.000 --> 1:07:20.560 maybe I did break some china along the way, and 1:07:20.600 --> 1:07:23.439 maybe some of the characteristics that might get a man 1:07:23.520 --> 1:07:26.800 called the Wolf of Wall Street, you know, aggressiveness and 1:07:27.200 --> 1:07:29.800 demanding get a woman called the Witch of Wall Street. 1:07:29.840 --> 1:07:32.880 And I decided that I would embrace it rather than 1:07:33.480 --> 1:07:34.240 run away from it. 1:07:34.320 --> 1:07:35.320 So you're owning it. 1:07:35.680 --> 1:07:36.959 I own it. I own it. 1:07:37.240 --> 1:07:39.120 I was just gonna say, did bother you or like, 1:07:39.120 --> 1:07:41.400 like when you think back and you just it's interesting 1:07:41.400 --> 1:07:43.959 because we have a lot of conversations about aggression from 1:07:44.000 --> 1:07:46.680 a man versus a woman, and COURSEU I still have 1:07:46.720 --> 1:07:50.720 it that can often be respected versus a is you know, 1:07:50.920 --> 1:07:53.960 not a witch but another word that rhymes me vercisely. 1:07:54.160 --> 1:07:56.640 I'm just I'm trying to understand. So take us like 1:07:56.880 --> 1:07:59.840 I don't know. First of all, that era, like go back, 1:08:00.040 --> 1:08:01.200 it was a different Wall Street. 1:08:01.480 --> 1:08:03.640 It was a very different Wall Street, and there were 1:08:03.760 --> 1:08:06.200 very few women who would really come in power. And 1:08:06.200 --> 1:08:08.480 that's why the title is breaking glass. I mean, I 1:08:08.480 --> 1:08:11.360 don't talk about shattering glass or anything, but you get 1:08:11.400 --> 1:08:13.120 to a certain point and then you were able to 1:08:13.160 --> 1:08:16.160 break through it, and a lot of women aren't. I 1:08:16.200 --> 1:08:21.560 think women are treated more difficultly in terms of promotions 1:08:21.600 --> 1:08:23.919 because I think everything looks like a return on investment, 1:08:24.360 --> 1:08:26.439 and it's how much do we want to invest in 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:29.639 her if she's not going to stay, and not going 1:08:29.680 --> 1:08:33.160 to stay generally means a chance, yes, precisely, And so 1:08:33.200 --> 1:08:36.360 I think women have to understand and accept that reality 1:08:36.880 --> 1:08:39.559 and just be even more aggressive. And I don't say 1:08:39.560 --> 1:08:41.760 that derogatorily. You've just got to be there. You've got 1:08:41.800 --> 1:08:44.720 to play the hard game if you're going to be 1:08:44.800 --> 1:08:45.840 in it for the long haul. 1:08:46.000 --> 1:08:46.759 Did you have kids? 1:08:47.200 --> 1:08:50.759 I did. I was forty five when I had my twins. Wow, 1:08:50.800 --> 1:08:53.599 so I had had quite a long haul, and there 1:08:53.680 --> 1:08:56.080 was I'll tell you, honestly, there was a time when 1:08:56.080 --> 1:08:59.280 I wondered whether I could be a good businesswoman, a 1:08:59.320 --> 1:09:03.240 good wife and a good mother simultaneously. And then when 1:09:03.280 --> 1:09:05.960 I had them, and it was wonderful for about six years. 1:09:06.520 --> 1:09:09.120 But very truthfully, I think an important story in my 1:09:09.240 --> 1:09:11.639 book is that we were on vacation and our children 1:09:11.640 --> 1:09:13.880 were five years old, and we were on the beach 1:09:14.080 --> 1:09:15.920 and my husband came home one day with them and 1:09:15.960 --> 1:09:18.760 he said, sweetheart, we're on the beach swimming and you're 1:09:18.800 --> 1:09:22.200 on conference calls. And I thought about that overnight and 1:09:22.240 --> 1:09:24.120 I woke up the next morning and I said, honey, 1:09:24.360 --> 1:09:27.360 I'm going to retire. And I retired at the age 1:09:27.360 --> 1:09:30.200 of fifty one. It was a big step to take, 1:09:30.439 --> 1:09:33.240 but in my mind, it was the right one for me, 1:09:33.920 --> 1:09:35.920 it was the right one for our family and what 1:09:36.040 --> 1:09:38.000 I did, and I ultimately had another. 1:09:38.040 --> 1:09:39.759 Well, I was going to say, you didn't really retire, 1:09:40.240 --> 1:09:42.680 like you know, this is not your first book, and 1:09:43.000 --> 1:09:45.720 you were also, you know, global partner at Invesco, and 1:09:46.160 --> 1:09:48.760 certainly in a second career as a member of many 1:09:48.760 --> 1:09:49.479 corporate boards. 1:09:49.560 --> 1:09:52.000 I did corporate boards and I did expert witness work, 1:09:52.280 --> 1:09:54.320 so yes, but it allowed me to do what I 1:09:54.360 --> 1:09:54.840 did want it to. 1:09:54.920 --> 1:09:55.160 Yeah. 1:09:55.200 --> 1:09:57.840 I didn't want my children being raised by nannies, and 1:09:57.920 --> 1:10:00.639 so you know, I accept the fact, and I think 1:10:00.680 --> 1:10:03.200 most women have to accept the fact you're going to 1:10:03.240 --> 1:10:05.960 have some more difficult choices than like leet men are. 1:10:06.280 --> 1:10:08.320 Was it the right move to retire at fifty one 1:10:08.600 --> 1:10:08.880 for me? 1:10:09.360 --> 1:10:12.840 Absolutely? I don't look back with any regret on it 1:10:12.880 --> 1:10:13.160 at all. 1:10:13.240 --> 1:10:14.840 Would you have if you were to do it again, 1:10:14.920 --> 1:10:16.400 retired earlier if you could have? 1:10:16.640 --> 1:10:19.000 No, I think the time my children were twins and 1:10:19.000 --> 1:10:22.360 they were fifth grade going into kindergarten, perfect time. I 1:10:22.400 --> 1:10:24.200 don't have to make all the play dates when two 1:10:24.240 --> 1:10:26.600 and three and four, right, but I did want to 1:10:26.640 --> 1:10:29.280 be there to answer the questions when they were getting older, 1:10:29.320 --> 1:10:30.320 So for me, it was perfect. 1:10:30.320 --> 1:10:31.640 Well, it's funny because Tim and I have had this 1:10:31.720 --> 1:10:34.760 conversation because he's back. Well now it's over a year, 1:10:34.840 --> 1:10:37.160 almost a year now, almost a year. That took it paternally, 1:10:37.439 --> 1:10:41.240 you know, like a real leave, not like six months 1:10:41.360 --> 1:10:44.200 six months, which is unheard of. Which is incredible that 1:10:44.240 --> 1:10:44.840 our company does. 1:10:44.960 --> 1:10:47.120 I was going to say that credit to Bloomberg. That 1:10:47.240 --> 1:10:48.040 was fantastic. 1:10:48.400 --> 1:10:51.679 It was fantastic, and I think it It's also changed 1:10:51.720 --> 1:10:53.840 a lot just in recent years. I mean, I wasn't 1:10:53.840 --> 1:10:55.400 at Bloomberg when I had my first kid, but I 1:10:55.400 --> 1:10:58.000 got two weeks off at that point and it just 1:10:58.040 --> 1:11:00.120 makes such a difference for when you raised ef. 1:11:00.360 --> 1:11:02.679 But what like the con we can be real and yeah, 1:11:02.760 --> 1:11:03.000 be real. 1:11:03.520 --> 1:11:04.880 I've talked about a lot. I don't know where we 1:11:04.920 --> 1:11:05.599 talked about. 1:11:05.360 --> 1:11:08.160 The study, No, but the point of that we need 1:11:08.360 --> 1:11:11.240 men to take that six months so that it kind 1:11:11.240 --> 1:11:15.040 of evens the playing field, if you will. Right of that, 1:11:15.240 --> 1:11:17.720 I'm not you know, the female isn't necessarily the only 1:11:17.760 --> 1:11:20.600 one that disappears from the workforce for six months or 1:11:20.640 --> 1:11:22.960 what have you. That it's good to see both parents 1:11:23.000 --> 1:11:23.360 doing it. 1:11:23.400 --> 1:11:25.800 It's something that has not done very much in our 1:11:26.200 --> 1:11:29.120 business the world of finance and investing, but it's done 1:11:29.200 --> 1:11:32.200 much more in Europe and I think we can learn 1:11:32.240 --> 1:11:35.559 from them. Take us back though, to your first job 1:11:35.600 --> 1:11:39.439 on Wall Street. I was nineteen years old and I 1:11:39.479 --> 1:11:41.559 have been given the job, you know, our harder job 1:11:41.640 --> 1:11:44.600 for ninety dollars a week, and all I was so 1:11:44.640 --> 1:11:46.280 proud of myself forgetting I askaw. 1:11:46.120 --> 1:11:46.840 What year this was. 1:11:47.360 --> 1:11:50.760 This was nineteen sixty eight. Okay, okay, but it was 1:11:50.760 --> 1:11:52.599 more than the minimum wage. So I was very proud 1:11:52.600 --> 1:11:55.439 of that, and all I wanted to be was the 1:11:55.439 --> 1:12:00.760 best receptionist in the world. Six months later, George, who 1:12:00.800 --> 1:12:02.840 is one of my mentors. My book is dedicated to 1:12:02.840 --> 1:12:05.120 my mentors, he brought me into his office and he said, 1:12:05.160 --> 1:12:07.240 we're going to give you a raise from ninety dollars 1:12:07.280 --> 1:12:09.400 a week to one hundred and I did my quick 1:12:09.400 --> 1:12:11.880 arithmetic and went, well, that's eleven percent, but that's in 1:12:11.920 --> 1:12:13.879 six months, so that's really twenty two percent. 1:12:14.280 --> 1:12:16.640 And I felt so empowered. 1:12:17.160 --> 1:12:20.000 And then two months later, it was Christmas time and 1:12:20.120 --> 1:12:21.960 he called me in and he said, we're very pleased 1:12:22.000 --> 1:12:24.120 with your work, and we're going to give you a 1:12:24.200 --> 1:12:29.439 fifteen hundred dollar bonus. It was like a third of 1:12:29.479 --> 1:12:33.559 my salary. I started investing and that was about the 1:12:33.560 --> 1:12:36.880 first thing. Literally less than a year later, he sent 1:12:37.000 --> 1:12:40.040 me to New York to close a deal. I didn't 1:12:40.080 --> 1:12:42.880 know what a deal was. I got into New York, 1:12:43.200 --> 1:12:45.519 I had a limousine that took me around to five places. 1:12:45.520 --> 1:12:49.639 I collected five checks each for a million dollars, went 1:12:49.720 --> 1:12:53.160 back to Boston, presented them to him. He and his 1:12:53.400 --> 1:12:56.799 partner took me out to dinner at the Ritz Carlton, 1:12:57.120 --> 1:12:59.800 and that night I lay in bed and said, hmm, 1:13:00.240 --> 1:13:02.320 I wonder if I might ever have a job like 1:13:02.400 --> 1:13:06.760 there someday. So it was from lowly beginnings, but I 1:13:06.800 --> 1:13:09.439 think the kind of the message of my book is 1:13:10.439 --> 1:13:13.960 be adaptable, learn put your hand up all the time, 1:13:14.400 --> 1:13:19.000 and little by little, when you are adaptable, you'll become 1:13:19.040 --> 1:13:22.040 more confident. When you more confident, you'll be successful. And 1:13:22.080 --> 1:13:24.200 it's not a very complicated story. 1:13:24.320 --> 1:13:26.760 So Patricia, that's exactly where I want to start, is 1:13:27.320 --> 1:13:30.760 the beginning. And I'm not talking about nineteen years old 1:13:30.880 --> 1:13:33.760 and your job as a receptionist. I'm talking about early on. 1:13:33.960 --> 1:13:37.200 And because you have an interesting story that I think 1:13:37.560 --> 1:13:38.719 would surprise a lot of people. 1:13:38.880 --> 1:13:40.840 Yes, and that story was my first book. It was 1:13:40.840 --> 1:13:44.440 called Little Sister. I was born into a religious community 1:13:44.600 --> 1:13:47.559 in all of all places, Cambridge, Massachusetts, so part of 1:13:47.560 --> 1:13:51.639 the real involved world, a group of highly intelligent, highly 1:13:52.160 --> 1:13:56.880 educated people at all Catholics, and they were under the 1:13:56.920 --> 1:14:01.240 auspices of a priest named Father Leonard Feenie Jesuit and 1:14:01.320 --> 1:14:05.160 a woman named Catherine Clark who created the entity, which 1:14:05.200 --> 1:14:08.800 was really for Catholics at Harvard and Radcliffe and other 1:14:09.080 --> 1:14:12.200 schools to have an opportunity to meet and talk about 1:14:12.200 --> 1:14:16.519 their own religion. And during the war World War two, 1:14:16.560 --> 1:14:19.479 that is, it was very very popular, and after the war, 1:14:19.720 --> 1:14:23.120 when all the veterans were coming back, father feene was 1:14:23.160 --> 1:14:27.639 the most popular lecturer in the world. My parents met there. 1:14:27.720 --> 1:14:30.479 My father had been a naval officer during World War two. 1:14:30.680 --> 1:14:34.280 He was getting his graduate degree in philosophy at Boston 1:14:34.320 --> 1:14:36.840 College and my mother was twelve years younger and she 1:14:36.960 --> 1:14:40.760 was a brand new eighteen year old convert to Catholicism. 1:14:41.240 --> 1:14:43.719 They met, they got married a year later I was born. 1:14:44.160 --> 1:14:48.920 But under Father Feenie's influence, the organization became very very 1:14:49.400 --> 1:14:53.240 doctrinaire about you had to be Catholic to be saved. 1:14:53.560 --> 1:14:55.919 And it was at the time that a humanism was spreading, 1:14:56.200 --> 1:14:59.040 and the idea was religions should all get together, and 1:14:59.080 --> 1:15:01.080 you know, they all worshiped in one way or another, 1:15:01.360 --> 1:15:04.160 and let's not you know, say that we have battlegrounds. 1:15:04.439 --> 1:15:06.559 But that was not the way they took it, and 1:15:06.640 --> 1:15:09.240 so pretty soon they were not. Father Feenie was no 1:15:09.320 --> 1:15:13.040 longer allowed to practice as a Catholic priest. My parents 1:15:13.240 --> 1:15:16.080 stayed with him. In a way. That was the only 1:15:16.120 --> 1:15:19.640 world I knew. And there were sixty adults. Among that 1:15:19.720 --> 1:15:23.679 were twelve married couples, and then thirty nine children came along. 1:15:23.720 --> 1:15:25.439 I was one of the oldest, and all of a 1:15:25.479 --> 1:15:28.240 sudden things really started to change. We had a number 1:15:28.240 --> 1:15:30.360 of houses in Cambridge and they built a big red 1:15:30.400 --> 1:15:33.400 stockade fence, so now the whole world was shut out. 1:15:33.400 --> 1:15:37.040 It was like a compound, a compound, absolutely, And then 1:15:37.160 --> 1:15:40.560 when I was six, the children were separated from the parents, 1:15:40.960 --> 1:15:45.800 and then the parents were arm twisted seriously to take 1:15:45.920 --> 1:15:51.040 vows of celibacy. And my father said, absolutely not, and 1:15:51.240 --> 1:15:53.200 Father Feenie came back to him and back to him, 1:15:53.280 --> 1:15:55.080 and finally Father Feenie said to him, you are the 1:15:55.120 --> 1:15:57.800 only you couple. You are the one couple, the only 1:15:57.840 --> 1:16:00.840 hold out of the twelve. They well, they had to 1:16:00.880 --> 1:16:02.920 do it. They really wanted us to have a very 1:16:03.000 --> 1:16:07.000 Catholic education. Years later, one of the other children told 1:16:07.040 --> 1:16:10.320 me his parents told him the very same story. So 1:16:10.360 --> 1:16:13.120 it had been this divide and conquer right, and now 1:16:13.320 --> 1:16:15.400 the children were not being brought up by the parents. 1:16:15.400 --> 1:16:17.720 The parents were not able to be together, and it 1:16:17.840 --> 1:16:22.120 was a monastic environment, silence most of the day. We're 1:16:22.160 --> 1:16:25.479 not allowed to address our parents, speak to them at all, 1:16:25.840 --> 1:16:28.519 and so people say, why did they do that? And 1:16:28.560 --> 1:16:33.040 all of that. That was their decision. But my father 1:16:33.240 --> 1:16:35.640 used to break the rules, and breaking the rules to 1:16:35.760 --> 1:16:39.960 me was what told me that he loved me. And 1:16:40.240 --> 1:16:44.120 the fact of the matter is I never blamed my parents. Somehow, 1:16:44.160 --> 1:16:46.360 I think I was a bright little girl, but somehow 1:16:46.400 --> 1:16:49.760 I blamed Catherine Clark, whom we called Sister Catherine, and 1:16:49.840 --> 1:16:54.240 Leonard Feeney for separating my parents. And I never thought 1:16:54.240 --> 1:16:55.920 of it as a cult. You will not see the 1:16:55.920 --> 1:16:58.639 book word cult in my first book. It was my home. 1:16:59.200 --> 1:17:01.880 It was my daughter her when she was twenty years 1:17:01.880 --> 1:17:04.519 old and came home from college and she said, Mom, 1:17:04.880 --> 1:17:07.760 I have two things to tell you. Then what was that? 1:17:08.040 --> 1:17:10.320 And she said, first, you have to stop everything until 1:17:10.320 --> 1:17:12.680 you finish this book. And then she said, and you 1:17:12.800 --> 1:17:15.760 have to accept the fact that you grew up in 1:17:15.840 --> 1:17:18.960 a cult. I never thought of it that way. It 1:17:19.040 --> 1:17:22.400 was my home and I loved it in many ways. 1:17:22.680 --> 1:17:26.599 But ultimately I accept the fact that it was a cult. 1:17:26.880 --> 1:17:29.640 And then when I was about fourteen or fifteen, I 1:17:29.720 --> 1:17:33.639 started having crushes on boys. Now that was not going 1:17:33.680 --> 1:17:36.800 to keep me in the community. Sister Catherine wanted every 1:17:36.840 --> 1:17:40.120 one of the children to grow up remain celibate for life. 1:17:40.560 --> 1:17:42.800 I would be a bride of Christ. But I have 1:17:42.920 --> 1:17:45.800 these dreams of a prince coming into the garden and 1:17:46.040 --> 1:17:48.559 sweeping me off, and you know, we will go off 1:17:48.600 --> 1:17:50.280 and live in a castle and have lots of children 1:17:50.320 --> 1:17:51.960 up that I knew how any of that would happen. 1:17:52.479 --> 1:17:55.679 And the next thing I knew, she kicked me out. 1:17:56.040 --> 1:17:57.320 No opportunity to come back. 1:17:57.360 --> 1:17:58.559 How old were you when you were kicked out? 1:17:58.600 --> 1:18:01.880 Seventeen? I just graduated from high school, schooled within our 1:18:01.920 --> 1:18:05.680 own community. I'd never seen a television show, never read 1:18:05.720 --> 1:18:08.280 a newspaper, never been to a grocery store, never had 1:18:08.439 --> 1:18:11.519 held a dollar bill. We'll go. So I had been 1:18:11.560 --> 1:18:14.880 accepted at two colleges because they needed the school to 1:18:14.920 --> 1:18:18.040 be accredited, and I was a good student, and I 1:18:18.080 --> 1:18:20.880 got into Vassar and I got into Bates, where my 1:18:20.880 --> 1:18:23.719 father had gone. She made me write a letter saying 1:18:23.760 --> 1:18:25.880 that I wasn't coming. She said it would be the 1:18:25.960 --> 1:18:28.919 I would lose my soul if I went to college. 1:18:29.439 --> 1:18:32.120 So she allowed me to go to a secretarial school 1:18:32.600 --> 1:18:35.439 so that I could get the necessary skills to be 1:18:35.520 --> 1:18:38.559 able to earn my own living. And my first place 1:18:38.600 --> 1:18:42.640 to live was at a room in the YWCA in 1:18:42.760 --> 1:18:44.879 a not very fashionable section of Boston. 1:18:45.360 --> 1:18:49.640 How does something like that? You seem pretty normal? But 1:18:49.680 --> 1:18:52.840 I don't even know what normal is anymore. But you 1:18:52.880 --> 1:18:55.240 know what I mean, And you've done really well, and 1:18:55.280 --> 1:18:58.000 I just wonder, though, what if that still stays with 1:18:58.080 --> 1:19:01.760 you or impacted you as you, you know, out into 1:19:01.800 --> 1:19:02.440 the world. 1:19:02.240 --> 1:19:03.400 And also raised your own family. 1:19:03.800 --> 1:19:06.640 Yes, oh yes, I look back on my life. I 1:19:06.720 --> 1:19:10.760 know it was very abnormal and very strange, but I 1:19:10.840 --> 1:19:13.120 look back and I wouldn't change anything. I'm not saying 1:19:13.120 --> 1:19:14.840 I wouldn't have had more time with my parents, of 1:19:14.880 --> 1:19:19.080 course I wouldn't. But I think the way one's path 1:19:19.200 --> 1:19:22.280 goes in life ultimately leads you to where you are 1:19:22.640 --> 1:19:26.080 happily married, two children, who one of them is now engaged. 1:19:26.080 --> 1:19:28.519 I mean they're thirty years old now, they're young adults, 1:19:28.880 --> 1:19:34.240 and I just think sometimes you're given the ability to, 1:19:35.160 --> 1:19:38.240 you know, get over the things that aren't good and 1:19:38.360 --> 1:19:42.240 find the best in them. Sister Kavin herself was never 1:19:43.000 --> 1:19:46.680 a mentor to me, but I believe she was a 1:19:46.760 --> 1:19:50.120 role model. This was a woman who ran a community 1:19:50.120 --> 1:19:53.880 of one hundred people. Not one man pushed back on her, 1:19:54.160 --> 1:19:57.160 not one woman pushed back on her. And I think 1:19:57.200 --> 1:20:01.600 when I got into that doggy dog world of Wall Street, subliminally, 1:20:01.720 --> 1:20:04.400 in the back of my mind, my only model was 1:20:04.439 --> 1:20:07.720 someone who ran things and was a woman, right, And 1:20:07.840 --> 1:20:10.360 I think I just learned, Okay, that's what I got 1:20:10.360 --> 1:20:12.880 to do. I'm gonna do this. I never thought I 1:20:12.960 --> 1:20:15.240 can't do that because I'm a woman. So I have 1:20:15.320 --> 1:20:16.360 to give her a little credit. 1:20:16.560 --> 1:20:20.120 So maybe that's the perfect segue to getting from your 1:20:20.160 --> 1:20:23.680 first job or your first role to one where you 1:20:23.720 --> 1:20:25.960 moved to the business side. You said you lay awake 1:20:26.000 --> 1:20:28.960 at night wondering how you could become one of those 1:20:29.280 --> 1:20:30.000 deals people. 1:20:30.360 --> 1:20:31.200 So how did you do that? 1:20:31.400 --> 1:20:31.720 It was? 1:20:31.840 --> 1:20:34.599 It was little baby steps. Let me tell you. One 1:20:34.600 --> 1:20:36.200 of the first things I did was I, by the 1:20:36.400 --> 1:20:40.200 age twenty one, I became a stockbroker. I didn't end 1:20:40.320 --> 1:20:42.720 up getting customers. I just thought I can do that. 1:20:42.960 --> 1:20:45.240 Then I memorized I had to do those s and 1:20:45.240 --> 1:20:47.840 p tear sheets. You're both way too young to know 1:20:47.880 --> 1:20:48.320 what they are. 1:20:48.320 --> 1:20:51.040 But I tickers are to memorize tickers. 1:20:51.240 --> 1:20:53.800 I memorized every ticker on the New York Stock Exchange, 1:20:53.840 --> 1:20:55.439 and I would go into the trading room and I 1:20:55.479 --> 1:20:58.360 would give myself tests, and I just found the whole 1:20:58.360 --> 1:21:00.640 thing so exciting. And by the time I moved to 1:21:00.640 --> 1:21:05.360 Philadelphia with my best girlfriend, I was becoming an assistant 1:21:05.479 --> 1:21:08.240 to the analysts. And the one thing I said of them, 1:21:08.360 --> 1:21:11.479 there were six men that I was reporting to. I said, listen, 1:21:11.520 --> 1:21:13.120 I don't want to just put numbers on a piece 1:21:13.160 --> 1:21:16.360 of paper for you. I want to learn what those 1:21:16.439 --> 1:21:18.960 numbers mean. And I want you to promise me that 1:21:19.560 --> 1:21:22.080 you'll answer all the questions I have. I was ready 1:21:22.120 --> 1:21:25.360 to walk away from that job if they had said, no, 1:21:25.439 --> 1:21:27.479 we just want you to give us the numbers. They 1:21:27.560 --> 1:21:30.479 kept their words, every one of them, and I walked 1:21:30.520 --> 1:21:33.880 away After two years. I wasn't even twenty five yet, 1:21:34.000 --> 1:21:36.639 and I understood how the trucking industry worked, and at 1:21:36.680 --> 1:21:40.040 the airline industry and the insurance industry, and so from 1:21:40.080 --> 1:21:42.640 there it was just a little step bigger till I 1:21:42.720 --> 1:21:43.479 became an analyst. 1:21:43.520 --> 1:21:45.639 Well, it's like you have this incredible story, and understanding 1:21:45.680 --> 1:21:48.320 that story is an important part of you. But understanding 1:21:48.360 --> 1:21:50.800 I think we feel that way like investment stories, Like 1:21:50.880 --> 1:21:53.719 understanding the story or the fundamentals or what something really 1:21:53.800 --> 1:21:55.960 is rather than just a sheet of numbers. Right, and 1:21:56.040 --> 1:21:58.840 understanding absolutely. Thirty seconds left. What would you like to 1:21:58.840 --> 1:21:59.719 share with our audience? 1:21:59.800 --> 1:22:02.599 Well? I do think for young people and I love mentoring. 1:22:03.160 --> 1:22:06.000 It's important to have mentors in your life. It is 1:22:06.080 --> 1:22:10.000 also really important to be adaptable. I think let's put 1:22:10.000 --> 1:22:13.080 your hand up, say yes, ask someone for help, don't 1:22:13.080 --> 1:22:15.920 be afraid to and you'll find little by little the 1:22:15.960 --> 1:22:18.520 first time it's hard, and then you have more confidence, 1:22:18.640 --> 1:22:21.080 and then you build up your own resilience. And I 1:22:21.120 --> 1:22:23.800 think everyone should have a mentor. There's no such thing 1:22:23.840 --> 1:22:27.320 as a bad mentor. They're either a mentor or they're not. 1:22:27.439 --> 1:22:29.680 If you were starting today fifteen seconds left, would you 1:22:29.720 --> 1:22:30.920 still go to Wall Street? Do you think? 1:22:31.439 --> 1:22:32.080 I love it? So? 1:22:32.240 --> 1:22:32.760 Okay? 1:22:33.640 --> 1:22:36.320 I end checking to see if like you're feeling about 1:22:36.479 --> 1:22:38.240 and I think it can be a great place for women. 1:22:38.360 --> 1:22:39.000 It really can. 1:22:39.240 --> 1:22:41.320 All right, love it? Promise you'll come back when the 1:22:41.360 --> 1:22:44.400 paperback comes us or even sooner, or even or even 1:22:44.439 --> 1:22:46.720 sooner what an amazing tale. Has Netflix called and said 1:22:46.760 --> 1:22:48.080 we need to make this into a series. 1:22:48.520 --> 1:22:52.559 There been little talks of I would watch last year, 1:22:52.880 --> 1:22:53.120 all right. 1:22:53.200 --> 1:22:56.439 Patricia Walsh Chadwick, a former global partner in Vesco her 1:22:56.439 --> 1:22:59.000 book Breaking Glass Tails from the Witch of Wall Street. 1:23:00.040 --> 1:23:03.519 Listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast Catch us live 1:23:03.600 --> 1:23:06.640 weekday afternoons from two to five pm. Easter Listen on 1:23:06.680 --> 1:23:07.280 Apple car. 1:23:07.280 --> 1:23:09.760 Play and and Broud Auto with a Bloomberg. 1:23:09.280 --> 1:23:14.920 Business app or watch us live on YouTube. 1:23:13.320 --> 1:23:15.679 Now to our fifth pick on our summer reading list, 1:23:15.720 --> 1:23:17.960 Our team Summer reading List from the producer of our 1:23:18.040 --> 1:23:21.719 daily Bloomberg BusinessWeek broadcast and podcast, Paul Brennan, who says, 1:23:21.880 --> 1:23:23.840 as someone who is later in his life and waiting 1:23:23.880 --> 1:23:26.680 for his own triumph to come, Paul was inspired by 1:23:26.800 --> 1:23:30.799 Moe's profiles and and he mentioned of his hero, Paul's 1:23:30.840 --> 1:23:33.240 hero mel brooks, it's a plus. 1:23:33.040 --> 1:23:35.880 And by Moe he means Mo. Roca, a correspondent for 1:23:35.920 --> 1:23:39.200 CBS Sunday Morning, a frequent panelist on NPR's weight Wait 1:23:39.280 --> 1:23:41.720 Don't Tell Me, and the host en realtor of the 1:23:41.720 --> 1:23:45.920 Cooking Channels My Grandmother's Ravioli. Also, he spent years earlier 1:23:45.920 --> 1:23:48.400 in his career as a correspondent on The Daily Show 1:23:48.560 --> 1:23:50.519 as well as on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. 1:23:50.680 --> 1:23:52.720 Yeah, he does a lot, man. His perspective's a lot 1:23:52.720 --> 1:23:55.200 of fun too. Morocca is also the New York Times 1:23:55.280 --> 1:23:59.360 bestselling author of obituaries Great Lives Worth Reliving, a companion 1:23:59.400 --> 1:24:01.559 to his podcast of the same name. His new book 1:24:01.560 --> 1:24:06.960 out just recently, Rockagenarians, Late in Life, Debuts, comebacks and triumphs. 1:24:07.320 --> 1:24:10.120 It was my first job and it is the toolbox 1:24:10.280 --> 1:24:13.160 I keep going back to all the time. Honestly, I 1:24:13.160 --> 1:24:15.960 don't want to sound too grand about it talking about 1:24:16.000 --> 1:24:19.840 being a storyteller, but really that job was storytelling boot 1:24:19.840 --> 1:24:23.040 camp because we a very small writing staff, had to 1:24:23.080 --> 1:24:26.479 take classic novels and break them down into half hour 1:24:26.560 --> 1:24:29.920 episodes as seen through the eyes of a Jack Russell Terrier, 1:24:30.040 --> 1:24:32.960 a dog for kids between the ages of six and eleven. 1:24:33.080 --> 1:24:36.120 It was like a writing assignment devised by an English 1:24:36.120 --> 1:24:39.240 professor on acid, and it was just the best way 1:24:39.439 --> 1:24:42.639 to learn. And you know, my boss there, she gave 1:24:42.680 --> 1:24:45.679 me some real tough love because I sort of thought. 1:24:45.479 --> 1:24:47.640 Oh, I don't really know what I'm doing. 1:24:47.240 --> 1:24:50.439 And so my scripts were kind of half baked, and 1:24:50.640 --> 1:24:52.720 she said, you just had to figure this out. And 1:24:52.760 --> 1:24:55.920 she took a couple of books on really screenwriting, and 1:24:55.960 --> 1:24:57.800 she just threw them down on my desk. At one 1:24:57.800 --> 1:24:59.640 point she said, figure it out because this is a 1:24:59.640 --> 1:25:02.880 great opportunity. And it was a great opportunity. In part 1:25:02.880 --> 1:25:05.720 peak is six to eleven year olds. You can't fool them. 1:25:06.040 --> 1:25:09.320 And so you can't just write a lazy script with 1:25:09.439 --> 1:25:11.760 characters just kind of talking to each other. It has 1:25:11.800 --> 1:25:14.360 to be really lean and dynamic, and the action has 1:25:14.400 --> 1:25:17.559 to keep moving forward or they'll lose interest. So it 1:25:17.680 --> 1:25:19.559 was a really great audience to have to write for. 1:25:19.800 --> 1:25:23.200 What is it about getting snapshots of you know, people's lives, 1:25:23.360 --> 1:25:27.280 you know individuals, great works, as you did with Wishbone. 1:25:27.640 --> 1:25:30.120 What is it about kind of like telling vignettes that 1:25:30.200 --> 1:25:32.519 you love doing Because you do this, it's obviously in 1:25:32.560 --> 1:25:32.960 this book. 1:25:33.160 --> 1:25:34.800 I mean, it's sort of the same thing that drew 1:25:34.880 --> 1:25:37.920 me to obituaries, which were kind which was a subject 1:25:38.000 --> 1:25:41.960 of my last book and podcast. A good obituary is 1:25:42.000 --> 1:25:44.880 about someone's life, not their death. And I love a 1:25:44.920 --> 1:25:46.160 good life style. 1:25:45.840 --> 1:25:48.600 Love reading obituaries, especially yeah, but go ahead. 1:25:48.439 --> 1:25:50.080 No, because a good obituary is sort of like the 1:25:50.960 --> 1:25:53.559 trailer for an Oscar winning biopic. It has a sweep, 1:25:53.560 --> 1:25:56.720 a drama, romance, the highs, the lows, the triumphs and tragedies. 1:25:56.920 --> 1:25:59.760 And my father was a real romantic and a very optimistic, 1:26:00.320 --> 1:26:02.800 very boyant, and so he loved to read. Growing up 1:26:02.800 --> 1:26:05.280 in the Washington, DC area when there were two daily papers, 1:26:05.400 --> 1:26:07.200 he just he would say, oh boy, the oh It's 1:26:07.280 --> 1:26:09.600 just my favorite section of the paper. So I just 1:26:09.840 --> 1:26:11.679 love a person's story. 1:26:12.640 --> 1:26:13.080 It's hard. 1:26:13.280 --> 1:26:14.479 I'm not sure how was to put it. 1:26:14.600 --> 1:26:16.960 Yeah, yeah, do they also though, teach us about how 1:26:17.000 --> 1:26:19.320 we want to live our lives completely completely. 1:26:19.520 --> 1:26:21.240 I mean there are times that I've been a competitive 1:26:21.280 --> 1:26:23.080 oh bit writer, Like you're sort of reading an oh 1:26:23.160 --> 1:26:25.280 bit and then you go, oh my god, he did 1:26:25.320 --> 1:26:27.000 all that by the time he was twenty five. 1:26:27.120 --> 1:26:29.280 Right, not to make it all about the person who's 1:26:29.280 --> 1:26:29.880 not dead, but. 1:26:30.160 --> 1:26:32.040 Right, I know, but it's hard to not to sometimes 1:26:32.040 --> 1:26:33.200 and then you're like, oh my god, he went to 1:26:33.240 --> 1:26:33.960 prison at thirty five. 1:26:34.000 --> 1:26:34.599 I'm doing fine. 1:26:36.120 --> 1:26:37.360 There's this metric going. 1:26:37.680 --> 1:26:39.640 But I mean, in this case, I mean, my co 1:26:39.720 --> 1:26:42.680 author and I wanted to tell stories of people who 1:26:42.680 --> 1:26:47.320 accomplished great things late in life. Because obviously old age, 1:26:47.360 --> 1:26:50.800 advanced age is very much in the news, a very 1:26:50.920 --> 1:26:55.400 hot topic, not just in politics, but as the population ages. 1:26:55.479 --> 1:26:57.400 Well, I think it's I would say for myself, like 1:26:57.479 --> 1:26:59.639 I think as I've gotten older, history in general is interesting, 1:26:59.640 --> 1:27:01.400 but also I think about the older folks that have 1:27:01.439 --> 1:27:03.479 been in my lives, like I love hearing about their 1:27:03.520 --> 1:27:05.960 stories and kind of what they had to go through. 1:27:07.720 --> 1:27:11.360 Having said that, sometimes having it's the folks that you 1:27:11.400 --> 1:27:14.120 write about. Sometimes it's their first chapter, sometimes it's the 1:27:14.160 --> 1:27:16.120 second chapter, sometimes it's the third chapter. Kind of talk 1:27:16.120 --> 1:27:17.519 to us a little bit about that, right, it's not 1:27:17.560 --> 1:27:18.640 sometimes their first. 1:27:18.400 --> 1:27:22.960 Act, right, or sometimes it is, well exactly, it's a variety. 1:27:23.000 --> 1:27:25.639 It's I mean, it's debuts, comebacks, and sort of it's 1:27:25.800 --> 1:27:28.759 capstones a lot of architects. It's one of these amazing 1:27:28.760 --> 1:27:30.880 things that architects just keep getting better and better. And 1:27:30.880 --> 1:27:34.400 I think there are a couple of practical reasons. If 1:27:34.439 --> 1:27:37.120 you're doing a commission for a big, expensive building, you 1:27:37.120 --> 1:27:39.839 want somebody with experience, right, You don't want necessary probably 1:27:39.880 --> 1:27:44.280 don't want a young starter architect, and more architects of 1:27:44.320 --> 1:27:47.120 advanced age also are likely to have a staff doing 1:27:47.120 --> 1:27:48.960 a lot of the grant work by that point. But 1:27:49.080 --> 1:27:51.320 all of these people have in common that they don't 1:27:51.400 --> 1:27:55.839 accept this very strange, pervasive and kind of insidious message 1:27:55.880 --> 1:27:57.680 that your third act of life is a time to 1:27:57.720 --> 1:28:02.120 kind of wind things down. Sure where that came from. 1:28:02.439 --> 1:28:05.679 And also, I mean, we're going to continue living longer 1:28:05.720 --> 1:28:08.920 and longer. I mean, if we're fortunate and have good health, 1:28:09.040 --> 1:28:14.080 decent healthcare. There are also people that don't look backwards. 1:28:14.120 --> 1:28:17.559 They're very in it. So they're not doing victory laps. 1:28:17.600 --> 1:28:21.320 They're not sitting at home playing highlight reels of their 1:28:21.960 --> 1:28:24.599 great achievements. And that's okay if you want to do that, 1:28:24.720 --> 1:28:27.320 if you know, if you want to do that and 1:28:27.400 --> 1:28:30.160 hang out and just reminisce. But that's not what these 1:28:30.160 --> 1:28:30.960 people in this book do. 1:28:31.160 --> 1:28:32.360 I want to get to some of the stories in 1:28:32.400 --> 1:28:34.080 just a few minutes, but before we do that, talk 1:28:34.120 --> 1:28:36.080 a little bit about the organization of the book, because 1:28:36.080 --> 1:28:38.240 it reads in a really interesting way. 1:28:38.400 --> 1:28:40.840 I have learned from the best At CBS Sunday Morning, 1:28:41.200 --> 1:28:43.960 which is a forty five year old arts and culture 1:28:43.960 --> 1:28:51.200 show on CBS, my executive producer Rand Morrison believes very 1:28:51.280 --> 1:28:54.840 much in mix show mix, like you have to, and 1:28:55.160 --> 1:29:00.479 part of that is surprises. So you go from I'm 1:29:00.479 --> 1:29:04.439 proud that the book includes Henri Matisse and Clara Peller 1:29:04.479 --> 1:29:06.719 that wears the beef Lady and a tortoise. 1:29:07.120 --> 1:29:08.880 Mister you're gonna get to mister racical. 1:29:08.960 --> 1:29:10.439 We had to get to miss the first time Fouther 1:29:10.479 --> 1:29:13.440 at ninety take that al Pacino. But like, but, but, 1:29:13.439 --> 1:29:16.960 but so mix is very important. I think everything I 1:29:16.960 --> 1:29:19.600 think when you turn the page, you want to be. 1:29:20.320 --> 1:29:23.960 I mean, I'm big into delight, like you know my ovid. 1:29:24.000 --> 1:29:25.960 I would just wanted to be like Morocca, who delighted 1:29:26.000 --> 1:29:28.120 audience has died today. He was one hundred and sixteen. 1:29:28.160 --> 1:29:31.400 But like that's a big part of it. So it's 1:29:31.439 --> 1:29:35.360 not chronological. We just we just wanted it to have 1:29:35.479 --> 1:29:38.920 a decent mix so that you know, it's I almost 1:29:38.920 --> 1:29:40.720 to give it in terms of protein and carbs. Like 1:29:40.800 --> 1:29:44.479 some stories have import and kind of grandeur, like married 1:29:44.560 --> 1:29:46.920 church Terrelle the civil rights leader at the age of 1:29:46.920 --> 1:29:51.080 eighty six, led sittings segregated, watching DC lunch counters. But 1:29:51.560 --> 1:29:56.160 that's a good like filling, nutritious, I mean, really story 1:29:56.560 --> 1:29:58.439 and then you want something just kind of busy and 1:29:58.520 --> 1:30:00.880 fund Carol Channing Finding Love at eighty two. 1:30:01.200 --> 1:30:03.400 It is fascinating. There's just so many different names. There 1:30:03.400 --> 1:30:05.320 are names people will definitely know, there are names that 1:30:05.360 --> 1:30:08.840 people might not. How did you go about figuring out 1:30:08.880 --> 1:30:10.400 who you wanted to include? 1:30:10.479 --> 1:30:13.320 Well, I didn't want to go I hate to start 1:30:13.360 --> 1:30:15.120 with what I didn't want to do, but I didn't 1:30:15.120 --> 1:30:18.040 want to go to entertainment heavy. There are actors Rita 1:30:18.080 --> 1:30:22.200 Moreno whom I've interviewed before, and who's a pistol, who 1:30:22.280 --> 1:30:24.960 is really a pistol? I mean, she's amazing at ninety two, 1:30:25.400 --> 1:30:28.040 Morgan Freeman, because I love the Electric Company and they 1:30:28.040 --> 1:30:31.799 both were on it and they kind of have intertwined lives. 1:30:32.040 --> 1:30:34.320 By law, we had to include at least one golden girl. 1:30:34.360 --> 1:30:36.320 I think we would have been arrested if we didn't. 1:30:36.360 --> 1:30:38.120 And Estelle Getty was the story to tell because she 1:30:38.120 --> 1:30:41.000 made her television debut at sixty two really after a 1:30:41.080 --> 1:30:43.760 life of kind of raising her family and doing every 1:30:43.840 --> 1:30:46.880 little bit off off off Broadway theater she could, So, 1:30:47.560 --> 1:30:49.800 I mean, it just seemed right that she should have 1:30:49.880 --> 1:30:53.479 this amazing, iconic role at the end. But we wanted 1:30:53.479 --> 1:30:56.160 to make sure that there was a real range of people. 1:30:56.320 --> 1:30:58.559 So one of the things I'm interested is sort of 1:30:58.680 --> 1:31:02.120 people who are obviously respected but kind of famous in 1:31:02.200 --> 1:31:05.000 sort of sub worlds, if you will. So I called 1:31:05.000 --> 1:31:08.439 my friend Scott Erlik, whose family worked in wine making 1:31:08.560 --> 1:31:11.160 for many years, and I said, who is someone in 1:31:11.200 --> 1:31:15.520 the wine making world that's just remarkable for his longevity 1:31:15.520 --> 1:31:18.240 And he's without skipping a beat, he said, Mark Kurkic 1:31:18.800 --> 1:31:21.960 is the guy. A Croatian immigrant, an immigrant from most 1:31:21.960 --> 1:31:24.640 than Yugoslavia, and he was alive at the time. He 1:31:24.720 --> 1:31:28.080 only died last year, right before our publication, so he 1:31:28.400 --> 1:31:31.000 was active up until the age of one hundred. And 1:31:31.120 --> 1:31:33.880 I love the fact that he was really the reason 1:31:34.000 --> 1:31:40.800 this amazing immigrant story that American specifically California wines when 1:31:41.320 --> 1:31:44.439 you know, became contenders the Judgment of Paris in nineteen 1:31:44.479 --> 1:31:48.839 seventy six, when American wines and French wines were competed 1:31:48.840 --> 1:31:51.439 against each other in a blind taste test in Paris 1:31:51.760 --> 1:31:55.160 organized by kind of a wag of a British promoter 1:31:55.520 --> 1:31:58.519 who expected it to be a runaway French victory, and 1:31:59.439 --> 1:32:02.880 both the red and white Americans. The white from Gurkitch's 1:32:03.120 --> 1:32:08.000 Winery One shocked the world to change the world of wine. 1:32:08.560 --> 1:32:08.680 Uh. 1:32:08.840 --> 1:32:11.920 And I just loved his story and uh and he's 1:32:11.960 --> 1:32:15.200 somebody who had persevered throughout his life but enlightened to 1:32:15.240 --> 1:32:19.120 his life bringing wine making in a very elevated way 1:32:19.160 --> 1:32:21.479 back to his homeland of Croatia. So it had a 1:32:21.680 --> 1:32:23.599 beautiful full circle. 1:32:23.680 --> 1:32:23.920 Yeah. 1:32:24.000 --> 1:32:26.200 You also stumble on names when you're reading the book 1:32:26.240 --> 1:32:27.840 and you say, wait a second. I've always seen a 1:32:27.920 --> 1:32:31.759 Roget's thesaurus on a bookshelf or as a college student. 1:32:31.840 --> 1:32:33.559 I had no idea. There was a guy named Rose 1:32:34.240 --> 1:32:36.280 and he was old when he wrote it. 1:32:36.400 --> 1:32:39.519 He was he was and I keyed into him because 1:32:39.640 --> 1:32:43.960 I love making lists myself. And you know, I know 1:32:44.000 --> 1:32:45.960 the capital every country in the world, and I used 1:32:46.000 --> 1:32:47.200 to do strange things. 1:32:47.600 --> 1:32:50.200 Don't make us quizy, I know, I know. 1:32:50.680 --> 1:32:52.680 Please where do I go? 1:32:52.840 --> 1:32:55.559 Where do we don't throw out a random country name? 1:32:56.120 --> 1:32:59.840 Please don't do that. Okay, she's she's thinking Brunei and 1:32:59.840 --> 1:33:02.120 the capital's bandar seri bega want so off? 1:33:02.160 --> 1:33:02.400 Okay? 1:33:02.400 --> 1:33:05.200 And Tim, now you ask what's the capital? And Jibouti, Jibouti, 1:33:05.439 --> 1:33:09.240 the capital jibutis JIBOUTI trick question, right, that's ok that's okay, 1:33:09.479 --> 1:33:12.559 But okay, I used to do make crazy lists and 1:33:12.920 --> 1:33:15.879 like I used to waterways near state capitals. 1:33:15.880 --> 1:33:16.320 That's one. 1:33:16.439 --> 1:33:18.960 But anyway, Peter Mark Roge did the same thing as 1:33:18.960 --> 1:33:21.640 a child, I think for different reasons. I did it 1:33:21.680 --> 1:33:24.360 because I was just maybe sort of curious and strange, 1:33:25.120 --> 1:33:28.720 which are synonyms, right, And he did. He had a 1:33:28.720 --> 1:33:32.000 lot of tragedy and his like personal loss, and one 1:33:32.000 --> 1:33:34.040 of his biographers believe it was a way of coping. 1:33:34.400 --> 1:33:37.760 But he returned to these lists that he had been 1:33:37.800 --> 1:33:40.160 working on at the age of seventy three and published 1:33:40.520 --> 1:33:43.360 The Rogestosaurus, and until the age of ninety he kept 1:33:43.360 --> 1:33:46.800 refining it and working on it. But and so that's 1:33:46.840 --> 1:33:50.040 sort of an unfinished business, which is something I like. 1:33:50.120 --> 1:33:52.720 A lot of these stories are people in a sense 1:33:52.800 --> 1:33:55.799 returning to childhood in more obvious ways, with Frank McCord 1:33:55.840 --> 1:33:57.920 and lore Ingles Wilder, who brought us to the Little 1:33:57.920 --> 1:34:01.840 House books by writing about their quite literal childhoods. But 1:34:01.880 --> 1:34:06.599 then people like the concert pianist Ruts Lenchinska. As a child, 1:34:06.760 --> 1:34:09.439 she was called the Shirley Temple of classical music, and 1:34:09.439 --> 1:34:11.720 this is a woman who at the age of nine, 1:34:11.840 --> 1:34:14.120 she had subbed for Rochman and Off Okay, and I 1:34:14.200 --> 1:34:16.559 interviewed her when she was ninety seven pace she had 1:34:16.560 --> 1:34:19.040 an album come out. I interviewed it for CBS. But 1:34:19.120 --> 1:34:21.960 what I found was a woman who had been really 1:34:22.000 --> 1:34:25.120 tormented by her father as a child prodigy and had 1:34:25.600 --> 1:34:27.920 the piano was a punishment, and she was just so 1:34:28.080 --> 1:34:32.439 enormously talented, and he was brutal to her. She literally 1:34:32.479 --> 1:34:34.679 was not allowed to play with dolls or go outside 1:34:34.680 --> 1:34:37.240 and play with other kids. And much later in life 1:34:37.240 --> 1:34:39.559 she returned to the piano on her own terms and 1:34:39.640 --> 1:34:42.920 learned to love it for the sake of itself. And 1:34:43.160 --> 1:34:44.480 I've found that so beautiful. 1:34:44.960 --> 1:34:46.920 I don't even know that there's no easy segue here, 1:34:46.920 --> 1:34:49.080 but the founding fathers of comedy. I mean, we have 1:34:49.160 --> 1:34:53.200 some guys who have been making us laugh for decades. Yeah, 1:34:53.200 --> 1:34:56.559 and I know some have passed away, and I think 1:34:56.560 --> 1:35:00.800 about Norman Leear, but you dig into what they doing. 1:35:00.720 --> 1:35:04.320 Well, Norman Lear, mel Brooks and Carl Reiner, who were 1:35:04.360 --> 1:35:08.840 all good friends. And I got to know Norman moderately well, 1:35:09.120 --> 1:35:11.640 I would say he was a friend. By the end 1:35:12.240 --> 1:35:15.559 of his life, and together. When you think of their 1:35:15.560 --> 1:35:21.840 body of work, they are largely responsible for at least 1:35:21.880 --> 1:35:24.040 a big part of what we actually laugh at. I mean, 1:35:24.080 --> 1:35:27.640 Carl Reiner with the Dick Van Dyke Show really did 1:35:27.760 --> 1:35:32.559 help create the modern situation comedy. And you know, and 1:35:32.600 --> 1:35:35.439 then Norman Lear made sure that it actually said something. 1:35:36.080 --> 1:35:40.800 And this is an undeniably culturally Jewish thing and that 1:35:41.000 --> 1:35:44.360 needs to be celebrated and acknowledged for what they did 1:35:44.439 --> 1:35:46.559 and what they have given us. So much of what 1:35:46.560 --> 1:35:49.639 we laugh at and think is funny comes from them. 1:35:50.000 --> 1:35:52.639 I mean, it's it's pretty remarkable. And you know, mel 1:35:52.640 --> 1:35:55.439 Brooks is still going. Mel Brooks is very different than 1:35:55.479 --> 1:35:57.920 the other two because I think mel Brooks there was 1:35:57.960 --> 1:36:02.080 a grumpy about him. A lot of what drove him 1:36:02.880 --> 1:36:08.720 was anger at injustice, at the horrors of the Holocaust. 1:36:08.760 --> 1:36:10.960 I mean, making fun of Hitler, knocking him off his 1:36:11.040 --> 1:36:15.760 pedestal was a real driving force of what behind what Melbrooks. 1:36:15.240 --> 1:36:16.960 Did for example. 1:36:17.040 --> 1:36:19.559 Absolutely, Yep, it's really remarkable. 1:36:19.640 --> 1:36:21.479 Yeah, we have to ask you about those who misspent 1:36:21.520 --> 1:36:22.160 their old age. 1:36:22.400 --> 1:36:25.920 Yeah, there's a whole chapter here about folks that some 1:36:26.000 --> 1:36:28.960 of whom are household names, some aren't, who misspent their 1:36:29.080 --> 1:36:32.160 their old age. One of those you argue is Rudy Giuliani. 1:36:32.600 --> 1:36:37.920 Rudy Giuliani, you know, this chapter is comprised of people 1:36:38.000 --> 1:36:40.240 that you think all you had to do is do nothing. 1:36:40.800 --> 1:36:47.240 Just enjoy the laurels, take those victory laps, just you know, first, second, 1:36:47.479 --> 1:36:52.000 and finally just do no harm. And Rudy Giuliani, there's 1:36:52.040 --> 1:36:56.920 certainly his mayoralty can be addressed, but I don't think 1:36:56.920 --> 1:37:00.800 it's debatable that the city was on it in key 1:37:00.880 --> 1:37:04.599 measures better off once he finished his mayor than it 1:37:04.640 --> 1:37:07.000 was at the beginning. You know, I think when he 1:37:07.040 --> 1:37:09.680 became Person of the Year for Time, it wasn't just 1:37:09.760 --> 1:37:14.360 an acknowledgment for how he handled the aftermath of nine 1:37:14.400 --> 1:37:17.040 to eleven. I think it was also for how he 1:37:17.080 --> 1:37:20.360 had shown that a city could be governed, which is 1:37:20.400 --> 1:37:22.240 something that had been in some doubt. I think that 1:37:22.280 --> 1:37:25.160 a city like New York could be governed. And then 1:37:26.080 --> 1:37:30.280 his behavior since then, and with the twenty twenty election 1:37:30.920 --> 1:37:35.040 and the Georgia election workers and there's a reason he 1:37:35.880 --> 1:37:39.240 is bankrupt. I don't know if he's legally bankrupt. You 1:37:39.280 --> 1:37:41.960 can correct me on that. If he's declared bankruptcy but. 1:37:43.560 --> 1:37:45.519 There's a lot of stuff still going on in terms 1:37:45.520 --> 1:37:45.720 of it. 1:37:45.760 --> 1:37:49.040 Yeah, he really could have just done nothing and been okay, 1:37:49.520 --> 1:37:50.160 how about. 1:37:49.960 --> 1:37:52.040 Okay, We've just got about a minute or so left here. 1:37:52.160 --> 1:37:55.639 I mean, going through this and all the reporting you've 1:37:55.640 --> 1:37:58.400 done as a journalist and these stories, like, does any 1:37:58.439 --> 1:38:01.040 of it make you think differently about how you want 1:38:01.040 --> 1:38:01.360 to live? 1:38:02.120 --> 1:38:02.360 Yes? 1:38:02.920 --> 1:38:05.240 And I think this is happening anyway. One of the 1:38:05.320 --> 1:38:08.400 unexpected things of getting older. I'm fifty five now is 1:38:08.439 --> 1:38:11.240 that I'm actually and I'm happy to report fretting less 1:38:11.240 --> 1:38:15.200 about the future, which I think would I didn't expect 1:38:15.200 --> 1:38:16.800 that to happen. I think I would think that the 1:38:16.880 --> 1:38:19.400 less time you have on the other side had the 1:38:19.400 --> 1:38:21.360 more you'd fred I'm not, and I think that that's 1:38:21.520 --> 1:38:23.920 a characteristic of a lot of these people. So I'm 1:38:23.920 --> 1:38:25.920 a little freer to act. And I think in a 1:38:25.960 --> 1:38:29.679 way it's you might as well act now because people's 1:38:29.720 --> 1:38:33.000 memories are short, and when you're gone, your children, your 1:38:33.040 --> 1:38:36.400 loved ones will remember you, hopefully for at least a 1:38:36.400 --> 1:38:40.880 little bit of time. Like, but you might as well 1:38:40.920 --> 1:38:45.479 act now, enjoylight and be in the present because it 1:38:45.520 --> 1:38:46.479 goes by quickly. 1:38:46.880 --> 1:38:49.559 No, you're right being the present and don't be afraid 1:38:49.600 --> 1:38:51.479 to do new things right even as you get older. 1:38:51.520 --> 1:38:54.080 And I'm also trying to speak more deliberately in sentences 1:38:54.080 --> 1:38:57.080 that can be diagrammed instead of just run on crazy 1:38:57.200 --> 1:38:58.600 sentences where I'm just filling. 1:38:58.320 --> 1:38:59.599 Space before we let you go. 1:39:00.040 --> 1:39:03.639 Capital of Slovenia, lib Dianya. 1:39:03.960 --> 1:39:04.960 Just making sure that. 1:39:05.040 --> 1:39:06.439 Said just sounded like a made episode. 1:39:06.560 --> 1:39:08.599 Just keep it, just keeping you on on us here 1:39:08.640 --> 1:39:09.439 we might be emailing. 1:39:09.479 --> 1:39:10.360 It was just more questions. 1:39:10.400 --> 1:39:12.320 I was actually just slurring, but okay, well. 1:39:12.360 --> 1:39:15.720 Raka, thank you so much. Inspiring and really thoughtful and 1:39:15.880 --> 1:39:20.160 just fun to read. Roctagenarians with Jonathan Greenberg, Late in life, debuts, 1:39:20.200 --> 1:39:21.760 comebacks and tribes. Thank you so much. 1:39:28.520 --> 1:39:32.080 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. Catch us 1:39:32.080 --> 1:39:35.320 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen 1:39:35.360 --> 1:39:36.080 on Apple car. 1:39:36.080 --> 1:39:38.520 Play and and Brout Auto with a Bloomberg. 1:39:38.080 --> 1:39:41.680 Business app, or watch us live on YouTube. 1:39:42.360 --> 1:39:44.519 All right, Tim, We're going to continue with our summer 1:39:44.560 --> 1:39:47.280 reading list. This is our final pick, pick number six. 1:39:47.400 --> 1:39:50.320 And I got to say, for me, it was pretty easy. 1:39:50.320 --> 1:39:52.439 When we started talking about doing this project, I'm like, 1:39:52.600 --> 1:39:55.400 uh was first of all to be fair, we talked 1:39:55.400 --> 1:39:57.800 to a lot of great authors. Our producer, Paul Brennan 1:39:57.840 --> 1:39:59.560 really books us with some really great guests, as you 1:39:59.600 --> 1:40:01.360 can see in the previous segments. 1:40:01.520 --> 1:40:05.360 Yeah, but I think this one actually came courtesy of you, right, No, uh, 1:40:06.160 --> 1:40:08.679 maybe it was Paul. He realized you're a sailor. He did, 1:40:08.800 --> 1:40:09.479 He knows you're. 1:40:09.680 --> 1:40:11.120 It was like a gift to me because. 1:40:10.880 --> 1:40:13.080 It was a gift to you. Books was fantastic. 1:40:13.160 --> 1:40:14.800 He gave the book to me early on. He's like, 1:40:14.840 --> 1:40:16.880 you gotta look at this one. My husband and I 1:40:17.000 --> 1:40:19.760 are sailors. We have been for over thirty years. We 1:40:19.920 --> 1:40:22.040 love love being out on the water with no one 1:40:22.040 --> 1:40:25.880 around us. For what seems like miles or like last summer, 1:40:25.920 --> 1:40:29.759 we were pretty alone, only boat out there except for Humpback, 1:40:30.000 --> 1:40:33.639 which popped up at our bow and then entertained us 1:40:33.720 --> 1:40:38.080 with breeches and tail smacks and like waving you know, 1:40:38.600 --> 1:40:41.599 one of his dorsal fins or I forget what finn 1:40:41.640 --> 1:40:43.760 that is off our stern for over an hour is 1:40:43.800 --> 1:40:46.519 pretty pretty amazing. But I will say for the most part, 1:40:46.560 --> 1:40:49.840 when we are out sailing, we're in sight or just 1:40:49.960 --> 1:40:52.839 off the coast. The coastline and land is often insight 1:40:52.880 --> 1:40:56.200 for us. We have not done serious offshore sailing across 1:40:56.320 --> 1:40:59.560 an ocean alone, something that we know many others. 1:40:59.240 --> 1:41:01.280 Have done yet, is what I said. 1:41:01.400 --> 1:41:02.880 That's what my husband says, not yet. 1:41:02.960 --> 1:41:06.599 Well, Richard King surely did. He's visiting professor in Maritime 1:41:06.680 --> 1:41:10.400 History and Literature with the Sea Education Association. He crossed 1:41:10.400 --> 1:41:13.679 the Atlantic in his twenty eight foot sloop he calls Fox. 1:41:14.080 --> 1:41:17.439 He wrote all about his treacherous journey in his new book, 1:41:17.640 --> 1:41:21.439 It's also Carol's Pick, Sailing Alone, A Surprising History of 1:41:21.439 --> 1:41:23.519 Isolation and Survival. Let's see, I. 1:41:23.479 --> 1:41:26.719 Sailed by myself in two thousand and seven across the Atlantic, 1:41:26.720 --> 1:41:29.799 and I definitely don't see myself as a super sailor. 1:41:30.360 --> 1:41:32.040 You know, it was a little bit of a bungling affair, 1:41:32.439 --> 1:41:34.360 and in some ways, going out of side of land, 1:41:34.479 --> 1:41:36.200 you know, off the coast is easier, right, you know, 1:41:36.240 --> 1:41:39.479 there's less to hit and less to take keep track of. 1:41:40.640 --> 1:41:41.640 But I did it for a couple of. 1:41:41.600 --> 1:41:43.920 Different reasons, and that was one of the things that 1:41:43.960 --> 1:41:46.160 I explore in this book. You know, I'm really telling 1:41:46.200 --> 1:41:48.439 the history of people that have gone to see by 1:41:48.479 --> 1:41:51.600 themselves and crossed ocean by themselves since at least the 1:41:51.640 --> 1:41:54.799 early seventeen hundreds and all the way up to today, 1:41:54.840 --> 1:41:56.439 and so I was trying to explore like why did 1:41:56.439 --> 1:41:59.680 people go, why would they go? And then also what 1:41:59.680 --> 1:42:01.640 they say all out there, just like you did in 1:42:01.640 --> 1:42:03.519 that intro care of like what is it like to 1:42:03.560 --> 1:42:07.000 be out at sea by yourself on a quiet boat, 1:42:07.040 --> 1:42:09.599 really close to the surface day after day. 1:42:09.439 --> 1:42:12.120 And really getting that connection to the ocean world. 1:42:12.200 --> 1:42:14.439 Well, I love that the book about you know, why 1:42:14.520 --> 1:42:16.400 they go, what they see? So when you took your 1:42:16.400 --> 1:42:19.400 trip across the Atlantic on Fox, your twenty eight foot sloop, 1:42:19.479 --> 1:42:22.960 what did you or what why did you go specifically 1:42:23.520 --> 1:42:24.639 and what did you see? 1:42:24.880 --> 1:42:25.160 Yeah? 1:42:25.200 --> 1:42:25.679 I went. 1:42:25.840 --> 1:42:27.960 I was in graduate school at the time, and I 1:42:28.000 --> 1:42:29.800 studied literature at the sea. I'm actually more of a 1:42:29.840 --> 1:42:32.519 scholar than you know, a sailor, and I'd spend so 1:42:32.600 --> 1:42:35.160 much time reading about these experiences and I was like, you. 1:42:35.160 --> 1:42:37.639 Know, maybe maybe I could do that, and. 1:42:39.160 --> 1:42:40.960 So I put I'm really proud of sort of the 1:42:41.000 --> 1:42:44.479 logistics of the boys, not necessarily the execution, but I 1:42:44.479 --> 1:42:46.519 didn't make it. And you know, some of the things 1:42:46.520 --> 1:42:49.599 that I saw out there was just a really close 1:42:49.640 --> 1:42:52.480 connection with some of the seabirds, particularly storm petrels. 1:42:52.960 --> 1:42:54.959 I had one moment which. 1:42:54.720 --> 1:42:56.920 I you know, many of the listeners will sort of 1:42:56.960 --> 1:42:59.439 connect with where I was fishing off the back of 1:42:59.479 --> 1:43:01.640 the boat and I saw a fin coming behind me, 1:43:01.680 --> 1:43:04.040 a really large dorsal fin, and I kind of freaked out. 1:43:04.080 --> 1:43:05.640 I was like, oh, my gosh, Jaws is going to 1:43:05.680 --> 1:43:07.840 like leap right on top of the boat and you know, 1:43:07.920 --> 1:43:08.479 eat me up. 1:43:08.600 --> 1:43:09.600 And you know, I. 1:43:09.960 --> 1:43:12.160 Quickly went down below and I took pictures and I 1:43:12.160 --> 1:43:13.680 grabbed my boat hook as if I was going to 1:43:13.760 --> 1:43:14.519 you know, stab it. 1:43:14.479 --> 1:43:15.760 In the eye or something like that. 1:43:16.080 --> 1:43:17.720 And then later when I look at the pictures, I 1:43:17.760 --> 1:43:19.519 realized it was this tiny little fin. 1:43:19.640 --> 1:43:21.519 It probably wasn't even the shark. It might have been 1:43:21.560 --> 1:43:22.880 like a pilot whale or something. 1:43:24.880 --> 1:43:26.760 But you know, you just really get that sort of 1:43:26.800 --> 1:43:31.000 intense connection, particularly the nights at sea and the sunrises 1:43:31.040 --> 1:43:36.120 and sunsets, and it's you know, it's a rare, privileged experience. 1:43:36.160 --> 1:43:40.200 Really, maybe because I'm an anxious New Yorker. I'm just 1:43:40.240 --> 1:43:42.760 wondering about the anxiety of being out there. It's so 1:43:43.400 --> 1:43:47.599 it's so I know it's cam but well, there's this 1:43:47.680 --> 1:43:50.719 feeling that I have. I'm not a sailor. I've sailed before, 1:43:50.800 --> 1:43:54.080 but I would not consider myself a sailor of not 1:43:54.160 --> 1:43:56.759 being in control of when you can get back on land, 1:43:57.320 --> 1:44:00.679 and that part of this totally freaks me out. 1:44:00.680 --> 1:44:00.920 Here. 1:44:01.080 --> 1:44:03.519 Were there any moments out there that you just found 1:44:03.560 --> 1:44:04.799 yourself terrified, like when. 1:44:04.640 --> 1:44:06.679 The engine died on that trip across the Atlantic? 1:44:07.760 --> 1:44:08.759 Yeah, Tim, totally. 1:44:08.800 --> 1:44:11.519 I would say ninety percent of the time I was 1:44:11.600 --> 1:44:13.920 an anxious wreck and my people are also from New York. 1:44:14.400 --> 1:44:15.240 I have that stream. 1:44:15.479 --> 1:44:19.400 Okay, you know, I think, and that's really the book 1:44:19.439 --> 1:44:21.760 is really about some of these great sailors who have 1:44:21.840 --> 1:44:23.879 gotten over that first anxious experience. 1:44:23.920 --> 1:44:24.720 I kind of never did. 1:44:24.760 --> 1:44:27.000 I did my first trip across the Atlantic, and then 1:44:27.000 --> 1:44:29.840 afterwards I was like, Okay, I think, I think I'm good, 1:44:30.200 --> 1:44:32.480 but I do kind of wish that I had continued 1:44:32.479 --> 1:44:35.240 on because you look at some of the really extraordinary 1:44:35.720 --> 1:44:40.960 historical sailors Bernard Martissier, Robin Knox, Johnson, Ellen MacArthur, even 1:44:41.040 --> 1:44:43.320 you know the early ones like Joshua Slogan who got 1:44:43.360 --> 1:44:46.920 over those initial and anxious moments and then were able 1:44:46.920 --> 1:44:49.600 to carry on and really be calm and really. 1:44:49.439 --> 1:44:50.919 Enjoy themselves at sea. 1:44:50.960 --> 1:44:54.439 And often that's when you know, these sailors really got 1:44:54.479 --> 1:44:57.479 these experiences in the natural world where they could finally 1:44:57.520 --> 1:45:00.439 relax and not have to worry so much about you know, 1:45:00.520 --> 1:45:02.040 this thing breaking or. 1:45:02.200 --> 1:45:04.920 There's something always breaking on a boat. You know that 1:45:05.720 --> 1:45:08.439 it's always breaking. Well, what's the joke. They say, it's 1:45:08.479 --> 1:45:11.120 like hours and hours of boredom broken up by you know, 1:45:11.680 --> 1:45:14.160 minutes or seconds of just sheer, terror and chaos. And 1:45:14.160 --> 1:45:17.120 that's kind of sailing, right, because it's really quiet out there, 1:45:17.120 --> 1:45:18.479 and then you have to go into harbor and you 1:45:18.479 --> 1:45:20.840 have to dock, and it's like there's always something that's 1:45:20.880 --> 1:45:21.559 going to go wrong. 1:45:22.080 --> 1:45:24.040 That's right, and you know, for a big part for 1:45:24.240 --> 1:45:27.000 solo sailers, trying to steer the boat and trying to 1:45:27.000 --> 1:45:28.559 get rest is a big part of it. And so 1:45:29.120 --> 1:45:30.400 one of the things I talked about in the book 1:45:30.439 --> 1:45:32.559 is sort of the development of various technologies that have 1:45:32.600 --> 1:45:34.840 made it a little bit easier for solo sailers, whether 1:45:34.880 --> 1:45:38.920 it's GPS or fiberglass or the marine engine, but self 1:45:38.920 --> 1:45:42.880 steering mechanisms, whether they're wind based or electrical, have made 1:45:42.920 --> 1:45:43.919 a huge difference. 1:45:43.960 --> 1:45:44.519 You had a wind. 1:45:44.560 --> 1:45:45.519 But even in my kid. 1:45:45.520 --> 1:45:47.400 Did you have a wind vane that's what you used 1:45:47.479 --> 1:45:48.400 right to go across. 1:45:48.760 --> 1:45:50.759 That's right. I had two different types of steering. 1:45:50.800 --> 1:45:53.280 I had a wind vane self steering, which you know 1:45:53.360 --> 1:45:56.000 doesn't require any power or any fuel, and that is 1:45:56.040 --> 1:45:58.479 about the most magical device on the planet. I was 1:45:58.520 --> 1:46:01.360 developed sort of, you know, in the a nineteen fifties 1:46:01.360 --> 1:46:05.840 and sixties for recreational boats, and that was just amazing. 1:46:06.320 --> 1:46:09.559 But that requires that's based on relative winds. So if 1:46:09.560 --> 1:46:12.080 you want to sleep for two hours and you got up, 1:46:12.280 --> 1:46:15.120 the boat is adjusting itself based on an angle of 1:46:15.120 --> 1:46:17.000 the wind. So if the wind shifts, your boat is 1:46:17.040 --> 1:46:18.639 going to change. 1:46:18.800 --> 1:46:21.960 And then I also had a little electrical tour pilot. 1:46:22.720 --> 1:46:24.200 You could say to a compass. 1:46:23.880 --> 1:46:28.400 Point, I'm curious about the reasons behind this and how 1:46:28.640 --> 1:46:31.120 not necessarily yours, which I want to get to, but 1:46:31.600 --> 1:46:33.920 the way that they've shifted over time, because as you 1:46:33.960 --> 1:46:37.120 mentioned in the seventeen hundreds, a lot of this was exploration. 1:46:37.200 --> 1:46:39.000 It was in search of riches, it was in search 1:46:39.040 --> 1:46:41.840 of you know, at that point, not necessarily new lands, 1:46:41.840 --> 1:46:45.120 but sort of right, the great exploration of the seas 1:46:45.479 --> 1:46:46.599 of the Earth. 1:46:47.080 --> 1:46:48.360 But these days. 1:46:48.640 --> 1:46:50.880 A lot of it is about recreation, and it's about 1:46:50.880 --> 1:46:53.720 sort of personal challenges, and I'm wondering how you can 1:46:53.760 --> 1:46:55.800 characterize the evolution of why someone would do this. 1:46:56.320 --> 1:46:56.559 Yeah. 1:46:56.600 --> 1:46:58.439 Yeah, No, that's a great point, and that's it's only 1:46:58.520 --> 1:47:01.519 something I sort of trade through going over time, because 1:47:01.640 --> 1:47:04.559 you know that the whole idea that going sailing by 1:47:04.560 --> 1:47:07.040 yourself across an ocean, that that isn't completely just a 1:47:07.040 --> 1:47:09.720 banana's idiotic kind of thing. That this idea that over 1:47:09.760 --> 1:47:12.320 time people start to respect that is a sort of 1:47:12.800 --> 1:47:13.799 interesting transition. 1:47:14.400 --> 1:47:15.959 And you do see sort of blips. 1:47:16.040 --> 1:47:19.000 You know, everybody is different, and everybody's complex about whether 1:47:19.000 --> 1:47:22.600 they're escaping a family situation or they are trying to 1:47:22.960 --> 1:47:25.400 make money or they're trying to make fame for themselves. 1:47:25.600 --> 1:47:26.799 But you do see sort. 1:47:26.600 --> 1:47:29.240 Of these sort of blips of where there's more recreational 1:47:29.280 --> 1:47:32.880 sailing and then even more solo sailing. One of these 1:47:32.920 --> 1:47:35.400 blips is right after World War Two, and I focus 1:47:35.479 --> 1:47:37.679 the book a lot sort of frame it on Ann Davidson, 1:47:37.720 --> 1:47:40.519 who's the first woman that we know of to sail 1:47:40.560 --> 1:47:44.479 alone across an ocean, and she sales in nineteen fifty two, 1:47:45.479 --> 1:47:49.160 and she's part of this whole surge of people from Europe, 1:47:49.240 --> 1:47:51.439 from North America, from all around the world that really 1:47:51.439 --> 1:47:54.200 are going out to the ocean and seeking that sort 1:47:54.240 --> 1:47:56.760 of respite, that sort of perception that the ocean is 1:47:56.800 --> 1:48:00.760 a clean, unhampered space, particularly after the trauma of World 1:48:00.800 --> 1:48:01.160 War Two. 1:48:01.720 --> 1:48:05.280 Yeah, it's pretty fascinating right to kind of hear what 1:48:05.360 --> 1:48:09.080 they sought out right to help them through it. I 1:48:09.080 --> 1:48:12.559 want to go back to something you said earlier, and 1:48:12.560 --> 1:48:17.679 that was I think the first solo circumnavigator or who 1:48:17.760 --> 1:48:20.400 was actually let me let you pick the story that 1:48:20.800 --> 1:48:23.799 you just were really drawn to. Because there's older folks, 1:48:23.880 --> 1:48:26.920 folks a long time ago. There's teenagers, which I'm always 1:48:26.960 --> 1:48:29.800 blown away by someone who's a teenager who gets in 1:48:29.800 --> 1:48:31.320 a book and their parents are in a boat and 1:48:31.360 --> 1:48:33.479 their parents are like yet gofort I think about there's 1:48:33.479 --> 1:48:37.839 a Netflix movie just on Jessica Watson, an Australian teenager, 1:48:37.960 --> 1:48:39.960 and it's kind of wild. 1:48:41.720 --> 1:48:44.479 Yeah, Jessica Watson is fantastic. And I think one of 1:48:44.520 --> 1:48:46.080 the things that I talk a lot about in the 1:48:46.080 --> 1:48:50.439 book is this relationship between being a writer because going 1:48:50.479 --> 1:48:52.439 to see you know, maybe even for you Caroly the 1:48:52.479 --> 1:48:54.400 when you go out just for an afternoon or for 1:48:54.439 --> 1:48:55.920 a day, it's a literary endeavor. 1:48:55.960 --> 1:48:58.320 You're keeping a log book, maybe you're writing a note, 1:48:58.320 --> 1:49:00.240 you're writing a letter, you're reading about others. 1:49:00.080 --> 1:49:03.680 Sailers, and so it's this very sort of almost all 1:49:03.760 --> 1:49:06.040 of these people that are going selling alone are also 1:49:06.160 --> 1:49:08.400 thinking about it artistically, and some of them are thinking 1:49:08.400 --> 1:49:11.280 about writing a book even before they've they've left. And 1:49:11.320 --> 1:49:14.799 so someone like Bernard Martissier, who in the nineteen sixties 1:49:14.920 --> 1:49:18.960 was the first to sail solo NonStop around the world 1:49:19.160 --> 1:49:22.360 one and a half times around the world in the 1:49:22.479 --> 1:49:25.920 late sixties, and he for him, from the very start, 1:49:26.080 --> 1:49:29.360 it was about making a book about crafting this work 1:49:29.360 --> 1:49:32.960 of nature writing, not even as much about the expedition itself. 1:49:33.000 --> 1:49:36.760 It was like as if Threau, you know, was climbing Everest. 1:49:38.040 --> 1:49:41.080 Just got about a minute left here, I mean, thirty 1:49:41.160 --> 1:49:43.320 years of sailing. We saw our first whale play with 1:49:43.400 --> 1:49:47.080 us in a boat off of Rhode Island just this 1:49:47.160 --> 1:49:48.920 past summer, and my husband I looked at us, maybe 1:49:48.920 --> 1:49:50.720 it's time to sell the boat because it was just 1:49:50.800 --> 1:49:54.000 so unbelievable. But you have about a minute left here? 1:49:54.040 --> 1:49:55.960 Is there a moment in time where you just I 1:49:55.960 --> 1:49:58.480 don't know a little story before we go unfortunately. 1:50:00.240 --> 1:50:03.040 Yeah, I think one interesting story is, you know, if 1:50:03.040 --> 1:50:05.519 you're watching in the news, you're seeing orcas that are 1:50:05.600 --> 1:50:09.160 damaging boats off Gibraltar. They're actually seem to be knocking 1:50:09.200 --> 1:50:12.000 into recreational boats. And one thing that you learned from 1:50:12.040 --> 1:50:13.840 the history is that's been happening for a while. And 1:50:14.120 --> 1:50:17.880 one former New Yorker, Teddy Seymour born in Yonkers, the 1:50:17.880 --> 1:50:20.960 first black sailor to sail alone around the world, and 1:50:21.000 --> 1:50:23.960 he was knocked by an orca off the Red Sea 1:50:24.080 --> 1:50:26.880 for about a half a day, but luckily just kind 1:50:26.880 --> 1:50:28.800 of banged into a self steering gear. 1:50:29.600 --> 1:50:31.040 But he tells a great story of it. 1:50:31.880 --> 1:50:33.839 I got to tell you, we watched the orc of videos, 1:50:33.920 --> 1:50:36.600 and we watch all these people, whether it's the YouTuber's 1:50:36.640 --> 1:50:40.160 project Atticus or Vagabond or you know, my husband and 1:50:40.200 --> 1:50:41.599 I are obsessed with it, and you get to get 1:50:41.600 --> 1:50:42.840 a feel of what it's like to be out on 1:50:42.880 --> 1:50:43.320 the ocean. 1:50:43.400 --> 1:50:45.760 Professor, just fifteen seconds left. Would you do it again? 1:50:46.800 --> 1:50:48.439 I think I do it with friends. 1:50:49.080 --> 1:50:52.040 Yeah, that's what I you know, that's what most of 1:50:52.080 --> 1:50:53.240 them do. And some of them have a couple of 1:50:53.280 --> 1:50:55.799 kids and they're going around the world, but they eventually 1:50:55.880 --> 1:50:58.760 on some of those big crossings, bring friends on. This 1:50:58.960 --> 1:51:01.000 was so much fun. I hope we get a chance 1:51:01.040 --> 1:51:03.960 to talk again and maybe you will buy it. Do 1:51:03.960 --> 1:51:04.760 you have a vote now? 1:51:05.800 --> 1:51:09.360 If anyone would like to donate one. 1:51:09.160 --> 1:51:11.920 Well said, Well said Richard King. His book is Sailing Alone, 1:51:11.920 --> 1:51:16.120 A Surprising History of Isolation and Survival at Sea, joining 1:51:16.160 --> 1:51:18.719 us from Santa Cruz, California. A great place to go sailing, 1:51:18.800 --> 1:51:19.320 no doubt. 1:51:19.120 --> 1:51:21.799 About that, Richard Visiting Professor of Maritime History and Literature 1:51:21.920 --> 1:51:23.600 with the c Education Association. 1:51:24.240 --> 1:51:27.439 This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast of a Little 1:51:27.520 --> 1:51:31.080 on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. 1:51:31.520 --> 1:51:34.880 Listen live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern 1:51:35.000 --> 1:51:38.400 on Bloomberg dot Com, the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and 1:51:38.479 --> 1:51:41.240 the Bloomberg Business App. You can also watch us live 1:51:41.320 --> 1:51:44.960 every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg terminal