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Speaker 1: It's that sign sign time, time, luck and load. The

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Speaker 1: Michael vari Show is on the air.

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Speaker 2: Born in the year two hundred and fifty one, so

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Speaker 2: two and a half centuries after the birth of Christ,

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Speaker 2: two centuries since the death the Christians church was quite

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Speaker 2: different than it is today. It was developing, it was strengthening,

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Speaker 2: it was spreading. There was a passion for the word.

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Speaker 2: And there was a Christian named Anthony who became Saint Anthony.

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Speaker 2: And he has many, many terms by which titles by

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Speaker 2: which he is referenced. Anthony of the Desert is one

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Speaker 2: you'll see. Because he was the first, he is sometimes

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Speaker 2: called the first monk. He's not the first monk. He

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Speaker 2: was the first monk to lead by desertification, going out

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Speaker 2: into the desert. This sort of what we now considered

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Speaker 2: monk like behavior, monasticism, living alone, studying, sacrificing, engaged in

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Speaker 2: pure thoughts and pure action. This sort of behavior is

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Speaker 2: often identified with him, and is often credited to him

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Speaker 2: as saint like and monastic monk like behavior, and he

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Speaker 2: came to be.

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Speaker 1: Known probably more.

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Speaker 2: He lived in Egypt, and he left the city to

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Speaker 2: go out to the desert, which is a harsh life.

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Speaker 2: As you can imagine and to study to purify his

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Speaker 2: thought and action. And he came to be known as

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Speaker 2: Anthony the Great. And what's interesting about him is that

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Speaker 2: he really internalized the Christian life and the Christian faith

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Speaker 2: and spoke to the individual about the society around them.

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Speaker 2: I've read a lot about him, but not a good biography.

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Speaker 1: And I've asked of.

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Speaker 2: Eddie Martini's brother Fatherly is a priest, and I've asked

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Speaker 2: him for a good biography on him, and when I

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Speaker 2: find it out, I'll share it. But there is a

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Speaker 2: line that he wrote that I would advise you for

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Speaker 2: so many of you who are going through what I'm

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Speaker 2: talking about, And he said, the days are coming when

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Speaker 2: men will go mad, and when they meet a man

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Speaker 2: who has kept his senses, they will rise up against him,

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Speaker 2: saying you are mad because you are not like us.

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Speaker 2: You've surely heard thee Orwell line. In a time of

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Speaker 2: universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary when.

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Speaker 3: You see someone speak out about COVID, when you see

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Speaker 3: someone speak out about an issue where the conventional wisdom

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Speaker 3: says you don't you don't defy this, you just go along,

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Speaker 3: even though secretly we all know or question that may

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Speaker 3: not be true. The term mad is used in this

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Speaker 3: translation for crazy. The days are coming when men will

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Speaker 3: go mad, and when they meet a man who has

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Speaker 3: kept his senses, they will rise up against him, saying,

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Speaker 3: you are mad because you are not like us. Christopher

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Speaker 3: Hitchins often quoted the story of Socrates, who, for his

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Speaker 3: scientific advancements, had been called by the Church elders, who

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Speaker 3: were the leaders of both the church and the nation.

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Speaker 3: And he had been accused of a crime wishable by death,

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Speaker 3: and that crime was blasphemy.

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Speaker 2: And he was called before the elders to explain this

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Speaker 2: blasphemy of his scientific developments and writings, theories which we

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Speaker 2: would later embrace, in which would be central to our

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Speaker 2: world of science. And he was brought before the church

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Speaker 2: elders to defend himself against penalty of death. So here

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Speaker 2: was Socrates, a man who should be honored, the nobel

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Speaker 2: prize of his day, the Einstein of his day, the

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Speaker 2: Jonas Sawk of his day, the Gregor Mendel of his day,

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Speaker 2: this great man of his era. But he wasn't being

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Speaker 2: called forward to be honored. He was being called forward

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Speaker 2: to be judged and to be killed. That he betray

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Speaker 2: what he knew to be true, because in a time

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Speaker 2: of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

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Speaker 2: The teachings of the church and the state at the

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Speaker 2: time were at best naive. They couldn't reconcile science.

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Speaker 1: With faith.

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Speaker 2: Their ecumenical teachings had to be above the scientific teachings.

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Speaker 2: And Socrates was to be put to death. And Hitchins,

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Speaker 2: who of course was a known atheist, and used this

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Speaker 2: as an example of the horrors of the church. And

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Speaker 2: he and I just have a disagreement on that, and

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Speaker 2: that's okay. But imagine a moment. Imagine how Socrates felt.

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Speaker 2: Here was the state condemning the individual. Lest he say, no, no,

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Speaker 2: I've changed my mind. You are the wise ones. I

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Speaker 2: will bend my need to you.

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Speaker 1: You are the ones that are right, and I am wrong.

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Speaker 1: How dare I question?

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Speaker 2: The days are coming when men will go mad, and

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Speaker 2: when they meet a man who has kept his senses,

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Speaker 2: they will rise up against him, saying, you are mad.

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Speaker 1: Because you are not like us. So many people.

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Speaker 2: Like to throw a man overboard today because his very

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Speaker 2: bravery in descent.

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Speaker 1: Is an indictment of their own inaction.

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Speaker 2: They were the words of George Ben aren't shore and

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Speaker 2: the words that were taken by Robert F. G.

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Speaker 4: These children speak Chinese and Spanish.

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Speaker 1: Michael, let's take a break from politics for a moment.

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Speaker 1: It's not really it's it's life.

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Speaker 2: Politics should be about life and culture and how we

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Speaker 2: live and the things that matter most of families. I

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Speaker 2: went to college on a full scholarship. I was very

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Speaker 2: proud of that fact, so my parents didn't have to

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Speaker 2: pay a dime. I went to law school on scholarships.

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Speaker 2: Was very proud of that fact. I went to the

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Speaker 2: University of Nottingham and England on a scholarship from the

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Speaker 2: University of Texas.

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Speaker 1: I was very proud of that. And I went to

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Speaker 1: a lot of school.

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to be honest with you, and I

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Speaker 2: know this is a good way to alienate my audience.

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Speaker 1: I loved it. I loved school.

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Speaker 2: The only reason I went and got another law degree,

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Speaker 2: which has no real useful purpose, is to teach. And

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Speaker 2: I wanted to teach. I love accumulating knowledge. I love

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Speaker 2: sharing knowledge. Was it Seneca who said to teach us

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Speaker 2: to learn? I love giving speeches. I love watching documentaries.

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Speaker 2: I love knowledge. I'm a jeopardy nut it makes me happy, right,

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Speaker 2: So with that in mind, the academy was created. We

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Speaker 2: were going to take kids from the farms into the

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Speaker 2: city and we were going to teach them the things

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Speaker 2: they would need to know to write, to think, to experiment,

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Speaker 2: science and mathematics and literature and all these sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: And so people like my parents who didn't go to

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Speaker 2: college were delighted that I could go to college. That

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Speaker 2: was exciting. That was a big deal, you bragged. And

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Speaker 2: then there's the where's your kid going to college? And

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Speaker 2: it's at ivy leagues and all that, and then that

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Speaker 2: morphed into whose college has the best football team? So

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Speaker 2: schools like Alabama and Georgia rose so the top where

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Speaker 2: they hadn't been before in the brack factor. And then

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Speaker 2: you start looking at these cases and how much people

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Speaker 2: are spending on college intuition is but seven times what

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Speaker 2: it was twenty five years ago, I think is the number.

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Speaker 2: And people are going broke over this, and kids are

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Speaker 2: graduating or not and have no means to pay it back,

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Speaker 2: and so the government is paying for it, so that

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Speaker 2: becomes a huge transfer of wealth. And so all of

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Speaker 2: this college talk, this massive industry in life, which is

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Speaker 2: bigger than birth and death and marriage and costs in

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Speaker 2: many cases more than your home. What's the point of

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Speaker 2: it all? So we came across something called who needs

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Speaker 2: College Anymore? Imagining a future where degrees don't matter. The

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Speaker 2: author is Kathleen Dulaski or Deloski. Ramon, do you want

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Speaker 2: me to first try Dulaski and then she corrects me

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Speaker 2: as Delasky or do you want to do Delasky and

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Speaker 2: she corrects me as d'laski Dulaski. Okay, We're going with

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Speaker 2: Delaski till she corrects us. And I'll be honest. We

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Speaker 2: don't get this excited up. We don't do many guests.

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Speaker 2: You folks know that, but I was really really interested

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Speaker 2: in this guest because I love when people think differently,

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Speaker 2: whether that's the COVID shot or anything else. Kathleen, is

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Speaker 2: it d'laski or Dulaski d'laski? Ah, we got it, Okay, Polish,

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Speaker 2: I presume the name is yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we've been here a long time, so who knows.

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Speaker 2: Well, it'll be okay if you were Polish. I like Poles.

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Speaker 2: One of my good friends is Polish. Yeah, and the

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Speaker 2: polls behave very admirably. During World War Two, the Polish

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Speaker 2: underground and the cracking of Enigma is the greatest story

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Speaker 2: of World War Two never told. But I won't bother

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Speaker 2: you with all that, so I rid do background. You

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Speaker 2: are an education and workforce designer and a futurist. That's

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Speaker 2: always interesting. I'm not one, but I'm fascinated by people

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Speaker 2: who are. You founded the Education Design Lab in twenty

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Speaker 2: thirteen to help We'll get into that, and for a

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Speaker 2: decade you were CEO of this lab, and you're obviously

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Speaker 2: a person who spends a lot of time thinking in

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Speaker 2: the aggregate about the big picture of how we I

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Speaker 2: don't believe that that uh college is for the purpose

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Speaker 2: of getting a degree, or even as much as learning,

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Speaker 2: as developing and growing the old the old Yates line

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Speaker 2: that that education is not filling a bucket but lighting

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Speaker 2: a fire. I am a big believer in the academy

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Speaker 2: as it once existed. But I'm going to turn the

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Speaker 2: show over now to you with a few basic questions.

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Speaker 2: Why have you written this book? What was the goal

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Speaker 2: in asking the question? Who needs college anymore? And then

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Speaker 2: you sort of answer that with imagining a future where

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Speaker 2: degrees don't matter. I'm going to let you have the

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Speaker 2: rest of the floor for the rest of the segment.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you and thanks for having me. I love

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Speaker 4: your story, Michael. It's it's really compelling about your family

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Speaker 4: and how you know, people who learn, who love to learn,

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Speaker 4: should will still have the opportunity to go to college,

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Speaker 4: to go get a four year degree. I mean, it's

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Speaker 4: the degree is not going away. But I wrote the

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Speaker 4: book really to try to highlight the fact that that model,

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Speaker 4: the four year degree model, which has basically, you know,

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Speaker 4: over taken all narratives about how you how you get

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Speaker 4: your you know, find your way to the American dream.

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Speaker 4: It's like the only narrative right now. And yet yet

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Speaker 4: the model only serves a minority of American adults. You know,

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Speaker 4: only thirty eight percent of people have a four year degree.

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Speaker 4: So we need to stop treating it as the only

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Speaker 4: aspirational brand, you know, to to get to success, because

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Speaker 4: you know, we see what's happening with the resentment building

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Speaker 4: and the economic divide. You know, some people are calling

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Speaker 4: it the diploma divide. You know, we have other models

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Speaker 4: that show promise, like apprenticeships and like short term you know,

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Speaker 4: certificates and certifications and boot camps, but they can't scale

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Speaker 4: because they don't qualify for the funding and the prestige

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Speaker 4: that you know that right now we're the only colleges enjoy.

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Speaker 4: And so that that's why I wrote the book. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I have my own personal story with my own children.

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Speaker 4: The model didn't really work for either of them, and

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Speaker 4: so I was kind of radicalized. Even though I live

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Speaker 4: in an area where everybody goes to college and you're

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Speaker 4: in you know, when you're at a you know, softball game,

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Speaker 4: and you know, you're kind of like under your breast

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Speaker 4: in my kids about going and so you know that

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Speaker 4: that kind of got me going, even in the first

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Speaker 4: place to start this thing called the Education Design Lab,

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Speaker 4: which is actually working with colleges to try to you know,

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Speaker 4: disrupt themselves and reinvent their own models. So we can

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Speaker 4: talk about that.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk first about your story. We've got two minutes

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Speaker 2: left in this segment. So I always like to know

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Speaker 2: where someone's angle is and all this. I feel like Nixon,

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Speaker 2: Nixon going to China. I can say that college doesn't

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Speaker 2: matter because I spent a lot of time in college.

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Speaker 2: I think it's harder if someone didn't, because then there

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Speaker 2: may be defensive about it.

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Speaker 1: What was your story?

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Speaker 4: Well, I am not the right messenger to be able

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Speaker 4: to stand up and say you don't need college, because I,

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Speaker 4: like you, I was lucky enough to you know, go

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Speaker 4: to both have an undergrad and I did a master's degree.

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Speaker 4: And I actually, in research in the book went back

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Speaker 4: to my to my ancestor, who my great grandfather time seven,

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Speaker 4: was one of the first graduates of you know that

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Speaker 4: university that's now under attack, but is the first university, Harvard.

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Speaker 4: He was the son of an indentured servant, an immigrant,

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Speaker 4: and he was able to somehow get into Harvard and

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Speaker 4: told his family up to a position of prominence in

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Speaker 4: colonial America. This is in sixteen seventy three, in one generation.

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Speaker 4: And so I start this, I start the book out

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Speaker 4: there to kind of demonstrate how college kind of took

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Speaker 4: a foothold in the lore of you know, how to

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Speaker 4: succeed in America right from the very beginning. So so

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Speaker 4: my you know, my story is that college was always

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Speaker 4: available to me and my forefathers. And yet now I

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Speaker 4: feel like we're in the family like some kids are

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Speaker 4: choosing not to go, including one of my daughters. One

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Speaker 4: wanted to go but you know, had neurodivergent issues and

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Speaker 4: ended up getting through it. But it was a complete,

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Speaker 4: you know, flog and difficult situation. And they, you know,

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Speaker 4: they helped me see that there are other ways to

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Speaker 4: succeed number one, but also that college needs to, you know,

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Speaker 4: we need to redesign it to meet the needs of

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Speaker 4: other folks and have different versions, like the degree should

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Speaker 4: just be one version of what college is offered. Why

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Speaker 4: can't they offer.

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Speaker 2: You are speaking my language. I love that you've undertaken

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Speaker 2: this project because I think that what you're saying is

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Speaker 2: is very visionary. One moment, our guest is Kathleen Dulaski.

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Speaker 2: The book is Who Needs College Anymore? Who Needs College Anymore?

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Speaker 1: More?

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Speaker 2: Big other one made money off of itsh We didn't

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Speaker 2: get nothing the hard time the Michael Berry Show. It's

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Speaker 2: a damn same, it's a damn same, it's a damn same,

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Speaker 2: it's a damn same. Kathleen d'laski as our guest. He's

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Speaker 2: the author of Who Needs College Anymore? Imagining a future

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Speaker 2: where degrees don't matter, And I would encourage everyone who

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Speaker 2: is listening to take a step back and ask yourself

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Speaker 2: this question, what should college be if you're going to

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Speaker 2: spend over over a one hundred thousand dollars, which is crazy,

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Speaker 2: what should be the result at the end. Many people

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Speaker 2: view it as I'll have a ticket to punch to

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Speaker 2: get a job. I think that's sad, but okay, and

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Speaker 2: that's because corporations created this. You have to have a

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Speaker 2: degree to go to work here, which was really just

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Speaker 2: a way of saying, I want to pick the white kids,

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Speaker 2: not the black kids, but I don't know how to

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Speaker 2: do that, and says the white kids go to college

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Speaker 2: and the black kids don't. That'd be a good way

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Speaker 2: to separate. Then the black kids went to college and

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Speaker 2: they said, oh, what do we do now? Well, about

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Speaker 2: that time, you had DEI so it didn't matter. But

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Speaker 2: I honestly think that was the history behind that. And

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Speaker 2: you folks know that I'm not one to claim very

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Speaker 2: much as racism, but I think that was racism. It

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Speaker 2: was also a way to create a class distinction because

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Speaker 2: richer kids went to college and poorer kids didn't.

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Speaker 1: How do we just get the kids who know which

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Speaker 1: fort to use?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: Will require college degree?

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Speaker 2: Or should it be an opportunity to learn and you

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Speaker 2: will come out of there and you will be very smart. Well,

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Speaker 2: nobody really believes that's happening. The only people who really

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Speaker 2: have to go to college. Or if you want to

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Speaker 2: be an engineer, a doctor, a lawyer, an architect, someone

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Speaker 2: who requires this certificate. So that's really no different than

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Speaker 2: a plumber and electrician, just costs a whole lot more.

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Speaker 1: And you have toga parties. But what should be the

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Speaker 1: point of this that?

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is a major part of our economy,

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Speaker 2: and so I would encourage you to open your mind

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Speaker 2: as we Kathleen and I have this conversation and join

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Speaker 2: in yourself.

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Speaker 1: What should be the purpose of all this?

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Speaker 2: Should it just be the buildings that are attached to

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Speaker 2: the football team and basketball team that we root for?

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Speaker 2: Because that seems sort of silly, doesn't it. So Kathleen,

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Speaker 2: let me fast forward from home. Who needs college anymore?

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Speaker 2: What is give me the four minute ideal? Kathleen is king,

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Speaker 2: what do you create as a college replacement?

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Speaker 4: Well, it's I don't want to replace college. I want

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Speaker 4: to uh a college an institution to have an umbrella

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Speaker 4: of let's call them products, right, services that they offer

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Speaker 4: a continuum of learners and not just the eighteen year

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Speaker 4: olds who showed up looking for adultification services. Right. They

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Speaker 4: need that maturation process probably more than anything. They need

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Speaker 4: to learn how to go through a gauntlet, how to

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Speaker 4: separate back from fiction, how to you know, organize their thoughts,

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Speaker 4: how to get along with people that they might not

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Speaker 4: have known existed. Right, So they need a kind of

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Speaker 4: a boot camp for life and growing up. But then

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Speaker 4: many other kind a lot of the people who aren't

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Speaker 4: being served by college are currently are you know, people

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Speaker 4: who are older, or people who are single moms, or

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Speaker 4: they're returning vets, or they're in the neurodivergent spectrum. And

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Speaker 4: you know, college was not designed to serve them, but

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Speaker 4: it can other programs serve them. But those other programs

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Speaker 4: aren't don't have access to the same funding. And that's

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Speaker 4: what's become you know, kind of very skewed in a system. Right.

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Speaker 4: It's like it's like it makes you realize that it

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Speaker 4: really is an elitist funding model that we need to

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Speaker 4: you know, we need to I don't want to say

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Speaker 4: take apart because I still want we still need, you know,

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Speaker 4: people to go all the way through to get a

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Speaker 4: PhD and be be a cancer researchers. You know, I

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Speaker 4: don't want to stop that. I don't want to stop engineers,

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Speaker 4: civil engineers from getting degrees to build bridget We need that.

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Speaker 4: But you know, the sixty two percent who are being

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Speaker 4: left behind, which is most of us, let's face it,

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Speaker 4: most most Americans, they need they need you know, they

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Speaker 4: need college too, Like why aren't there? Why do they

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Speaker 4: have to kind of figure out how to work through

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Speaker 4: a maze and end up often trying and failing to

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Speaker 4: do this college thing. I mean so, so I didn't

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Speaker 4: answer your question, which is what you know, what if

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Speaker 4: I were a king, what would I do? What? What

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Speaker 4: I advocated in the book is what I call a

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Speaker 4: step ladder approach. And some community colleges in particular are

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Speaker 4: starting to do this, and we're actually working with a

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Speaker 4: number in Texas where they, you know, you have a

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Speaker 4: short stack called a micro pathway where you you know,

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Speaker 4: you get you basically learn the skills through a couple

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Speaker 4: of uh, you know, like a boot camp basically for

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Speaker 4: one job role, right, and then you can go out

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Speaker 4: and get that job role, and then you can stack

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Speaker 4: to the next, you know, the next income level to

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Speaker 4: build your earnings power you know, often while you're in

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Speaker 4: that job. So it's the idea that you are earning

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Speaker 4: and learning and scaffolding up to along your career path

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Speaker 4: and getting the learning you need along the way. And

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Speaker 4: there's two reasons why why we're starting to move to

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Speaker 4: this and we have to move to this model for

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Speaker 4: higher education. Number one is people can't afford one hundred

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Speaker 4: thousand dollars, which is the average cost of a college

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Speaker 4: degree these days. Four your degree. People can't afford that, right,

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Speaker 4: so they're opting out and they're sitting on the sidelines.

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Speaker 4: The second reason is AI right, I mean, and technology,

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Speaker 4: like the things that you spend those four years learning

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Speaker 4: are not necessarily useful to the employer when you get

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Speaker 4: out the door and want to you know, want to

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Speaker 4: line up and apply for that job. So we need,

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Speaker 4: you know, we need shorter term learning because you need

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Speaker 4: to be agile, and you need to learn the latest right,

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Speaker 4: the latest software, the latest cyber thing, the latest technology,

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Speaker 4: and your healthcare job. It's changing so fast that the

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Speaker 4: four year model is feeling kind of antique.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just so different.

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Speaker 2: You know, we have in the state of Texas a

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Speaker 2: plumbing crisis or plumber crisis where plumbers are phasing out

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Speaker 2: and nobody's coming in, and it requires certification, it requires

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Speaker 2: time on the job. You know, you go from journeyman

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Speaker 2: and all you know, from apprentice to journeymen and all this,

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Speaker 2: and we don't have the master plumbers to a lesser degree,

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Speaker 2: but still a problem is true of electricians. And these

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Speaker 2: are things that AI is not going to replace overnight,

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Speaker 2: and so.

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Speaker 4: We've got a problem very secure jobs yet.

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Speaker 2: So what's happening is the guy who started as a

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Speaker 2: plumber made pretty good money and built up a plumbing

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Speaker 2: company with twenty plumbers, and he's making over a million

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Speaker 2: dollars a year and he has no He has a

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Speaker 2: plumbing license but no college degree, and so he sends

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Speaker 2: his kid to college to get a psychology degree, and

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Speaker 2: he's he's folding shirts at Apricrimey and Fish And our

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Speaker 2: economy is, our needs aren't being met, and that kid's

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Speaker 2: future is not being set very well because God knows,

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Speaker 2: Daddy doesn't want him to get his hands dirty. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's a real problem. Whereas the people who

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Speaker 2: do go for a vocational license, that should be a

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Speaker 2: very different experience. We don't need to go and spend

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Speaker 2: a fortune for fraternities and toga parties when what you

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Speaker 2: really want to do is get a life skill and

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Speaker 2: get to work. And so I think everybody's every journey

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Speaker 2: I hate the word, but should be different and a

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Speaker 2: different approach depending on kind of what you're going to do.

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Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by this, this study you have. You have

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Speaker 2: really piqued an interest in me in something I think

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Speaker 2: our society is getting wrong, and especially a one size

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Speaker 2: fits all, because that's that's not the answer to this.

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Speaker 2: When did you read who Needs College Anymore? I was,

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Speaker 2: Or when did you.

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Speaker 4: Write, Oh, I mean I just finished it like last summer,

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Speaker 4: and then you know, it takes like six months for

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Speaker 4: the publisher to get it put it together. So it

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Speaker 4: came out in February, okay this year and.

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Speaker 2: Worth noting for those of you who are interested in this,

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Speaker 2: especially because you have children who are in high school

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Speaker 2: and you're trying to consider what to do for your

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Speaker 2: student who's not really interested in school per se, but

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Speaker 2: you want a good future for them. The website is

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Speaker 2: who Needs College Anymore? Dot org rg who Needs College

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Speaker 2: Anymore dot org And with that we will continue our

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Speaker 2: conversation with Kathleen Dulaski. The website is who Needs College

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Speaker 2: Anymore dot org, and I encourage every family to have

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Speaker 2: this conversation as your kids are growing up. Don't just

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Speaker 2: go to college because you don't know what else to do.

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Speaker 2: That's no reason to join the military, there's no reason

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Speaker 2: to go to college. There's no reason to do anything else.

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Speaker 2: Give thought to this, what do I want to be

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Speaker 2: when I grew up? Who do I want to be

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Speaker 2: when I grow up? And not just what job or

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Speaker 2: how much money I want to make, but what field

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Speaker 2: of study?

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Speaker 1: What passion do you have? Anyway more coming up?

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Speaker 2: Get people to understand giving information is not sniping.

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Speaker 1: Kat's land.

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Speaker 2: Delasteth is our guests. She's the author of Who Needs

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Speaker 2: College Anymore? Imagining if future where degrees won't matter. Imagine

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Speaker 2: a society giving the power to confer upon an individual

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Speaker 2: the ticket to punch to riches. You would be giving

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Speaker 2: all the power to this unique institution. And a lot

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Speaker 2: of people think that's what's happening, and it's not. I've

434
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: known two billionaires very closely in my life, neither of

435
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 2: whom went to college. I've known other billionaires who didn't

436
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 2: graduate from college. So if riches are your goal, getting

437
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 2: a job and working within a corporate entity is not

438
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 2: always the best way to go about that. But there's

439
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 2: so much more to life than how much you make.

440
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: It's what you do and finding a passion for that. Kathleen,

441
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: how has your work been received because everybody with a

442
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 2: college degree thinks you're devaluing their college degree.

443
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know. I think at the time that

444
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 4: I chose to write it, which is pretty much now,

445
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 4: it is a kind of wake up call moment. I

446
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 4: feel like ever since the recession from twenty ten college attendance,

447
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 4: college enrollment has been dropping. So community college has lost

448
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 4: a third of their enrollment in the last decade. And

449
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 4: this was even happening well before COVID and then degrees.

450
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 4: I mean, people are not the degree. A number of

451
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 4: people signing up for degrees is dropping, and the number

452
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 4: of people signing up to do like certificates and other

453
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 4: form short forms of training is going up. And so

454
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 4: you know, I don't, I don't. Colleges are receiving my

455
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 4: message pretty well because they know they have to change,

456
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 4: and they're like going right to the chapter that's like,

457
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 4: how can colleges adapt and they're looking at you know,

458
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 4: the models that I show there are really around. Okay,

459
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 4: if you want to show that you still have an

460
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 4: ROI or a return on investment for your students, you

461
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 4: really need to focus more on helping them, you know,

462
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 4: land them at the front door of their first job,

463
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 4: because as you just said a few minutes ago, that's

464
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 4: exactly what you know, that's what families are expecting to

465
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 4: happen when their kid graduates, is is they you know,

466
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 4: they're going to get a job. And so you know,

467
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 4: how can we connect those dots better? And so I think,

468
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 4: you know, you see a lot of colleges really trying

469
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 4: to start to work on that, and Texas in particular.

470
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 4: I was just at the Association with all the Community colleges,

471
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 4: the annual meeting in Nashville, and some Texas colleges were

472
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 4: presenting and they're explaining that you know, you've got you've

473
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 4: got a new law on Texas called HB eight, which

474
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 4: which is now, uh, colleges are being judged and they're

475
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 4: getting funding based upon the outcomes that they deliver, and

476
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 4: by that they mean what kind of income are students

477
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 4: making after they graduate? That's actually being tracked and Texas

478
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 4: is the first state to do this, and everybody else

479
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 4: is watching this. I mean there are other states are

480
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 4: kind of doing versions of it, but they're doing the

481
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 4: most intense version and it's been really interesting to watch.

482
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: That is wow.

483
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: You know, these are things that don't I don't think

484
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 2: are talked about widely. There is so much. I have

485
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: a son who's a junior, so he will begin the

486
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: college application process in the fall, and I've told both

487
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 2: of my sons.

488
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 4: I'm in the zone.

489
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 2: I have a son who's the freshman's University of Texas,

490
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 2: and I've told them, you can do the military, you

491
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 2: can do vocational school, you can go to college, you

492
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: can take a gap year and travel and work around

493
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: the world as you do it.

494
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: It's totally up to you.

495
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: And both have thus far chosen college as their route.

496
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: And I think part of that is that's what their

497
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 2: friends are doing. Is a comfort to that and all that.

498
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: Just like with careers and your life partner choice, I

499
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 2: think it's important that you keep an open mind and

500
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: you look at you know, you don't just marry the

501
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: girl who lives next door or was your high school sweetheart.

502
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: That may work you don't just do the job that

503
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: your dad did.

504
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 2: That may work, but you know, these are going to

505
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: have a big impact on your life, life and your happiness.

506
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 2: So be willing to look at at least know what

507
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: all is out there, right, and don't be limited to

508
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: the kids who did bring your dad to work day

509
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 2: because there's a lot there are a lot more careers

510
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: out there.

511
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I just wanted to mention I want with

512
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 4: your son being a University of Texas. So another really

513
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 4: interesting pilot that I feature in the book is University

514
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 4: of Texas. The whole system is starting to incorporate like

515
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 4: industry certifications into the degrees, and they're again they're doing

516
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 4: You're doing the largest pilot in the country right now,

517
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 4: and everybody's watching it. And so you're you know, they're

518
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 4: getting like a Google It certificate or a cybersecurity certificate.

519
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 4: You can get this without going to college, but at

520
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 4: least the college are just saying, wow, we need to

521
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 4: add this value. Yes, where you know, learners can see

522
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 4: the connection between you know, what what Google is going

523
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 4: to be asking for in the job interview and what

524
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 4: we were delivering in the classroom. So they're actually baking

525
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 4: in the certificates that have been created by by companies.

526
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,479
Speaker 4: Will I think it's a great step in the road,

527
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 4: and let's talk.

528
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: About why they didn't do it.

529
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: It wasn't that they lacked the expertise or the space

530
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: or the students with the interest in it. It was

531
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: beneath the university. We are the academy, we are the

532
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: Ivory Tower. We don't get down into certificates. And I

533
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: think there is now a sort of hey, guys, there's

534
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: got to be some value to this. I'm spending all

535
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 2: this money and I need to be able to have

536
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: certificates when we get out of this to perform tasks,

537
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: especially because you mentioned Google.

538
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: Google goes out of their.

539
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: Way to hire young people who did not go to college,

540
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: and I think that's a wake up call to the universities.

541
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, they have been good about them.

542
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: What is the takeaway that people have the website is

543
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: who needs college anymore? Dot org to your theories and

544
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: ideas that you get the most. What is the thing

545
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 2: that someone says I hadn't thought about that?

546
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 4: Well, I think you know, everybody's heard about apprenticeships and

547
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 4: boot camps, but I don't think people realize that we

548
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 4: are suppressing those models by the way that we put

549
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 4: all of our all of our funding eggs in the

550
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 4: in the in the you know sort of college and

551
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 4: college tuition basket, you know, through federal financial aid. You know,

552
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 4: there's like fifty to one is the expenditures on college,

553
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 4: you know, nationally versus supporting college versus apprenticeships. So, you know,

554
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 4: I don't want to suggest to your listeners that they

555
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 4: could just walk out, their kids can walk out and

556
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 4: get a cool apprenticeship, because apprenticeships are are you know,

557
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 4: have long been available in areas light construction, electrician, HVAC,

558
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 4: but they're now becoming available in what you might call

559
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 4: the white collar jobs, but not at scale yet. And

560
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 4: so I don't want to suggest that these are like

561
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 4: ready to go models. We need to push for them,

562
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 4: and states are actually taking the lead right now on that.

563
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 4: And so you can, your listeners could go to apprenticeship

564
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 4: dot gov and see, you know, where what what apprenticeships

565
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 4: are available, because that's a great model. Yes, and colleges

566
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 4: are now even trying to to bring them in, you know,

567
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 4: to kind of become the the you know, the facilitators

568
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 4: for apprenticeships. And that's cool. You'll see more of that,

569
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 4: but you know, probably not what your kids are in school.

570
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 4: So so I don't want to suggest that like these

571
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 4: other models are like easily available to kids right now.

572
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 4: They're not, but we need to make them so.

573
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: I have I'm fortunate to have contacts and people that

574
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: I could reach out to, but I have had my

575
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: kids doing what I would consider apprenticeships, internships, whatever you

576
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: want to call it, and I break down the formal

577
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 2: barriers and I say, I just want them to hang

578
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: out with you for some period of time a week,

579
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: a month, and literally watch you take phone calls, watch

580
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 2: how you spend your day, watch how you spend your hours,

581
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: watch you go to lunch with and you learn so much.

582
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: I learned at the foot of mentors that I had

583
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 2: who were much older than me, who were willing to

584
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 2: invest in me. And I'm a big believer in that model.

585
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 2: I want to say, because I'm up against the clock.

586
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: You also mentioned self instruction using YouTube. I think of

587
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: how many kids are doing homeschooling now, and they're doing

588
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: it all online.

589
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: And you know, you're always told you have to go

590
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: to school to be socialized.

591
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 2: These kids are smart, they're well rounded, I'm thoroughly impressed

592
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: by them.

593
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: I love what you're doing.

594
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: Kathleen de Laski, Let's have you on again, The author

595
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 2: of Who Needs College Anymore. The website is who Needs

596
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: College Anymore dot org. Thank you for your time.

597
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 4: Thank you, Michael