1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: Today's episode of Stuff You Missed in History Classes brought 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: to you by Tracker. Tracker is finding more than a 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: million misplaced items each day. Order yours and never lose 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: anything again. Listeners to this show get a free Tracker 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: Bravo with any order. Go to the Tracker dot Com 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: and inner promo code history. The hardest thing you'll ever 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: have to find is their website. Go to the Tracker 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: dot com right now and in a promo code history 9 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: for your free Tracker Bravo with any order. Again, that's 10 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: the Tracker dot Com promo code history. Deep in the 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: back of your mind, you've always had the feeling that 12 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: there's something strange about reality. There is in life, death, 13 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: nanopart of MECHANICALSI punch evolution. On our award winning science 14 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: podcast Stuff to Abow your Mind, we examine neurological quandaries, 15 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, and our trans human future. New 16 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: episodes come out Tuesdays and Thursdays on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, 17 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: and anywhere you get your podcast. Welcome to Steph you 18 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: Missed in History Class from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, 19 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Collie fry and I'm 20 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: Tracy P. Wilson and it's Halloween, Tracy hers the best 21 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: day of the year. Uh. And today to celebrate Halloween, 22 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a history mystery. It's got everything. 23 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: It's got a mystery, a mystery body, it's got witches, 24 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: it's got espionage, it's got everything, and it's never been solved. 25 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: Though as we get to the end of the episode, 26 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: we're gonna get into some interesting math that tries to 27 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: sort out the situation. But I don't want to spoil 28 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: any of that, so let's just hop right in. So 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: in the nineteen four Days, a grizzly discovery was made 30 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: in a tree in Worcestershire, England. On April eighteenth of 31 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: nineteen forty three, four teenage boys were looking for birds 32 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: nests and they sent the best cli timer up an 33 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: elm tree. In the hollow of the tree, he did 34 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: not find a bird's nest. He found a skull. Initially 35 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: he thought it might be an animal skull, but when 36 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: he pulled it from its place in the tree, he 37 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: realized no, it was a human skull, and there was 38 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: also a little bit of decomposing flesh still attached. To 39 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: the skull as well as a patch of hair, and 40 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: the skull had distinctive teeth, they were crooked, and there 41 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: was sort of what looked what looks at pictures like 42 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: almost a pronounced overbite, but also some lower jaw um deformation. 43 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: The boys, whose names were Robert Hart, Thomas Willett's, Bob Farmer, 44 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: and Fred Payne, were terrified. They were also really worried 45 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: that they were going to get in trouble because they 46 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: had been trespassing in Hagley Woods. This estate, which was 47 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: near Birmingham, was private. They had no permission to be 48 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: in there looking for nests. They had also been hunting rabbits, 49 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: so they'd basically been poaching, and they had been doing 50 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: all of that that day with no permission. So the 51 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: boys promised each other that they would keep it a secret. 52 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: They put the skull back in its spot in the 53 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: tree and then they left. But the youngest boy of 54 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: that group, Tommy Willitts, did not in fact keep their secret. 55 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: He was really deeply upset by the discovery, and he 56 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: eventually confessed his troubles to his father, and his father 57 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: immediately contacted police, and of course an investigation began. When 58 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: the police examined this elm tree, they found not only 59 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: the skull, but also additional remains, including the majority of 60 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: the skeleton. There were also pieces of clothing, a wedding 61 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: band and a single shoe with a crepe sol. The 62 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: skeletal remains of one of the body's hands were also 63 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: found buried near the tree. Examination of the remains by 64 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: a pathologist concluded that the skeleton was a woman who 65 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: had been between thirty five and forty when she died. 66 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: She was five ft or one point five meters tall, 67 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: brunette and had probably given birth this one point. Another 68 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: man involved in the investigation was forensic biologist Dr John Lund, who, 69 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: at the age of one hundred and one, told the 70 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: BBC radio show Punt p I about his examination of 71 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: the remains. That interview happened in twenty fifteen, so he 72 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: had been working under James Webster at the West Midlands 73 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: Forensic Science Laboratory and he kept notes on the case. 74 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: The body arrived at his lab on April two days 75 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: after it had been discovered. The bones had absolutely no 76 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: remaining flesh. The hair that was attached to the skull 77 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: was quite fragile, but he determined that it had not 78 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: been chemically treated with color or any kind of curling solution, 79 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: and the woman Webster in Land concluded had been asphyxiated 80 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: by a piece of cafoda that had been shoved in 81 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: her throat. Additionally, it was believed that the body had 82 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: been hidden in the tree while it was still warm, 83 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: feet first, and that it had been there for about 84 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: a year and a half, placing her death somewhere around 85 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: October of nineteen forty one. Efforts started immediately to try 86 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: to identify what appeared to be the victim of a murder. 87 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: Missing persons reports were calmed through for anybody who might 88 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: line up with this mystery discovery. There were detailed descriptions 89 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: of what she had probably been wearing based on what 90 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: Webster had been able to extrapolate from this shoe and 91 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: the clothing remains that had been collected. That there was 92 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: a whole reference through the dental records with dentists from 93 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: all around Great Britain, but because of the war, missing 94 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: persons records were something of a mess at this point, 95 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: but even so, all known listings were reviewed for a 96 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: possible connection, literally thousands and thousands of records, but nothing matched. 97 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: No results with dental dental records either, despite the fact 98 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: that she had some unique features, including that jaw deformity 99 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,559 Speaker 1: and a recently pulled tooth that had had been pulled 100 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: shortly before she had died, and they really cast a 101 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: wide net by placing this information in dental journals, hoping 102 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: that they would find a dentist it recognize any of 103 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: this information, but the case went cold. A small clue 104 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: finally came from a man who had been working in 105 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: management in one of the area's industrial companies. He had 106 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: reported to police in July nine he was walking to 107 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: his home near Hagleywood and he heard a scream. Another person, 108 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: a teacher, who was also on a path but coming 109 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: in the opposite direction, had confirmed that he too had 110 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,119 Speaker 1: heard this screaming, and police were called to the scene 111 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: at the time that these two men heard this scream, 112 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: which would have been close enough to the October death 113 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: estimate to have been a possible connection to the murder, 114 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: But police in nineteen forty one found nothing where the 115 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: two men had heard the woman screaming, and they found 116 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: nothing when they revisited the scene in nineteen forty three. 117 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: After reviewing that ninety one report, just as the case 118 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: seemed to be running entirely cold, in December of nineteen 119 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,239 Speaker 1: forty three, odd graffiti started popping up in the area. 120 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: Scrawled in various play says were the words who put 121 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: Bella down the witch elm? There were actually a lot 122 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: of variant variations on the phrase, including who put Luebella 123 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: down the witch elm? And who put Bella in the 124 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: witch elm? There were also some more instances of graffiti 125 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: that's strayed from this question format and said things more 126 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: like hagleywood Bella. And as a point of note, as 127 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: we say this, we're not saying which here, uh, in 128 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: the sense you might be thinking, what with this being Halloween, 129 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: when we say witch elm, the spelling is w y 130 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: c H. That's a tree also known as a Scott's elm. However, uh, 131 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: In several things that I read, there were people that 132 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: were adamant that this was in fact not a witch elm, 133 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: but another type of elm that's often mistaken for one. 134 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: Just wanted to include that in the interest of horticultural 135 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: history and to clarify that it is not which is 136 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: in the halloween e sense. At this point, it is 137 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: creepy though Yeah, even without that spelling difference, still creepy. 138 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: These graffiti messages appeared to be the work of a 139 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: single person. They were all written in the same type 140 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: of chalk and block letters uh, and it was considered 141 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: that they maybe were just somebody trying to play a prank. 142 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: But there had been no leads in the case that 143 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: had actually panned out up to that point, So these 144 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: bizarre missives opened up two new lines of investigation. Number one, 145 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: was there really someone named Bella who might be involved 146 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: in this body that had been found in Hagleywoods? And 147 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: number two, who was the artist behind the graffiti and 148 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: did they actually know something about the murder? But nothing, 149 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: not the name Bella, not the dental records, not the 150 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: hunt for the graffiti artists, seemed to lead to any 151 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: actual information. This woman seemed to be entirely untraceable, and 152 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: as the months dragged into years, all kinds of other 153 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: theories started to pop up about the identity of this 154 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: woman in the tree. And before we get to those 155 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: theories that started popping up in an effort to explain 156 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: the skeleton in Hagleywoods, let's take a brief break and 157 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: we'll have a word from one of our sponsors. 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Go to 176 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: stamps dot com and before you do anything else, click 177 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: on that microphone at the top of the homepage and 178 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: type in stuff that's stamps dot com and enter stuff. 179 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: So we promised you a little witchiness at the beginning 180 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: in the actual which sense, not in the W Y 181 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: C H three sense, So we're getting there. Professor Margaret 182 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: Murray of University College London, who was an anthropologist, egyptologist, 183 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: archaeologist and folklorist, put forth the theory that Bella, as 184 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,599 Speaker 1: she had at that point become known thanks to that graffiti, 185 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: had been the victim of a ritualistic occult murder. Murray's 186 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: evidence to support this theory was the fact that the 187 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: handbones had been found away from the body, and she 188 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: believed that the ceremony that had claimed Bella's life, which 189 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: is one which is called the hand of glory in 190 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: which the hand cut from the victim could be used 191 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: for divining or protection as part of the practice of witchcraft. 192 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: And the sensational nature of this idea really took hold 193 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: in both the press and the public imagination surminds me 194 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: of the satanic rich will abuse panic. It is absolutely 195 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: the same thing that that was not really founded in reality. 196 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: So when another murder victim was discovered in a neighboring village, 197 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: this when a man who was pinned to the ground 198 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: with a pitchfork, people started linking the two deaths even 199 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: though it had been two years between the two. Scotland Yard, 200 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: who was spurred on by Margaret Murray, started investigating this 201 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: witchcraft angle because there had been no other new leads 202 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: in the case and asked with all the other leads 203 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: got them nowhere? Had no real information that was gathered 204 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: as a result of Murray's theories. And as a side note, 205 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: While Margaret Murray was famous for a time in the 206 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: early twentieth century as an expert and I should put 207 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: that in the air quotes on witchcraft, most of her 208 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: writings on the subject were controversial at the time and 209 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: they were eventually debunked and she was largely discredited. She's 210 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: actually on my short list for an episode all her own. 211 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: But she was basically kind of making stuff up. Yeah, 212 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: the first time I read through this outline, I got 213 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: to this description of her purported satanic not satanic, but 214 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: like her purported ritualistic occult murderer, and I was like, really, really, 215 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: actual anthropologist, for real, did you did you just make 216 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: this up? Like? What? Really? You know? She used logic 217 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: that made sense to her, but I don't know that 218 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: she was kind of fabricating these in an effort to 219 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: be um to be misleading or sensationalist. I think she 220 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: might have believed them, but I will do more research 221 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: on her perhaps in the future. Maybe that will be 222 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: in October episode next year. I maybe can't wait till then. 223 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 1: But what's that's cool too? Then? So ten years after 224 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: that initial grizzly discovery in the tree, there was another 225 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: possibility that came to light. This time a woman going 226 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,719 Speaker 1: by the name Anna from Claverley contacted the press in 227 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 1: a letter. She was responding to a series of articles 228 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: that had been written in nineteen fifty three about the murder, 229 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: saying she knew who had killed Bella. Anna's claim was 230 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: that Bella had in fact been part of an espionage 231 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: play gone wrong, and the letter read, finish your articles 232 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: regarding the witch Elm crime. By all means, they are 233 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: interesting to your readers, but you will never solve the mystery. 234 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: The one person who could give the answer is now 235 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: beyond the jurisdiction of earthly courts. Much as I hate 236 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: having to use a Nomeda plume, I think you would 237 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: appreciate it if you know me. The only clues I 238 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: can give you are that the person responsible for the crime, 239 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: died insane in nineteen forty two, and that the victim 240 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 1: was Dutch and arrived illegally in England about ninety one. 241 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 1: I have no wish to recall anymore. Anna's story cast 242 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: Bella as a Dutch woman who was passing information from 243 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: a British officer to a trapeze artist who appeared in 244 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: local theatrical productions. That trapeze artist would then pass that 245 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: mfl onto the Germans. Bella, in the story had become 246 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: too knowledgeable about this chain of of information, and she 247 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: was killed because of that knowledge, and then her body 248 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: was taken to Hagleywood's where it was hidden in the tree. 249 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: Of course, this fleshing out of the story passed. That 250 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: initial letter came because uh, the police got involved. Of course, 251 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: once the press got this letter h and they questioned 252 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: her because the area around Worcestershire was home to a 253 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: number of munitions factories during World War Two. It had 254 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: been scrutinized by the Nazis for information during the war. 255 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: It had also been a target, so authorities did pursue 256 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: this new German spy ring angle with some level of vigor. 257 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: Some aspects of Anna's story checked out. There had been 258 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: a British man connected to a German spy ring in 259 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: the area, but he had died in Stafford Mental Hospital 260 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: in ninety two, and as it turned out, that man 261 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: was related to Anna. Anna's real name was Una Massup. 262 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: Una had, she told police, been married to j Massip 263 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: and he had confessed the murder to her before his death. 264 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: It was her understanding that he, along with a dutch 265 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: Man named Van Raalt who was also involved, meant to 266 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: scare this woman by leaving her in the tree when 267 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: she was passed out because she was inebriated. They did 268 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: not actually intend to kill her. Yeah. The idea was 269 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: that she would wake up stuck in this tree and 270 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: see the error of her ways and being foolish, uh, 271 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: and would straighten up an act right. The police were 272 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: unable to locate this ven Rault character, and it appears 273 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: that they sort of abandoned the trail there. Years later, however, 274 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: another woman named Judith O'Donovan told police and investigators that 275 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: she was Jack mossa sort of distant cousin. I think 276 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: her he might have been her husband's cousin, and that 277 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: their entire family basically knew that Jack had been a 278 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: trader and that he had been connected to a woman's death, 279 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: so it sort of supported this spirring idea, uh and 280 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: the fact that he may have been connected to the 281 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: woman in the witch Holme. Another decade passed before another 282 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: theory emerged, and this one kind of combined the previous 283 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: two notions. In nineteen sixty eight, a book called Murder 284 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: by Witchcraft was published, written by David McCormick, and McCormick 285 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: penned an explanatory narrative in which the woman from the 286 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: Tree had been a Nazi spy named Clara Bella, who 287 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: was also an occultist. According to McCormick, who said that 288 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: he had been able to look at German intelligence reports 289 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: that listed the woman by her code name, she was 290 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: called Clara. His assertion was that the Bella and the 291 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: graffiti was referencing Clara Bella. McCormick's book indicated that Clara 292 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: had been sent into the County of West Midlands by 293 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: parachute in nineteen forty one, but that she was never 294 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: heard from again. Of course, these roads all proved to 295 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: be fruit list, just like all the others had in 296 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: terms of churning up any real information on the case 297 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: at the time. Three full decades after McCormick's book was released, 298 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: the case of Bella's identity once again gained a ten 299 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: chin and at this time pieces the puzzle started to 300 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: come together in the minds of interested parties. For one, 301 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: when the case closed, which was actually in two thousand five, 302 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: UH the case file was published and in it there 303 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: was a mention of a search for Bella's body to 304 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: be exhumed so that DNA evidence could be gathered, because 305 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: that would certainly be helpful, But that search was for 306 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: her body was unsuccessful. It turns out that this failure 307 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: to find her body was in part because they had 308 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: been looking in completely the wrong location. It had been 309 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: presumed that Bella had been buried locally, but in fact 310 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: her remains had gone to the University of Birmingham, to 311 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: a colleague of the original pathologist in the case, for 312 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: additional testing, and that was a detail that had sort 313 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: of been lost in the sixties, some years since the 314 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: case had been active before it was closed in two 315 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: thousand five, and unfortunately, the skeletal remains disappeared from the 316 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: university's records and their lab lost forever to time. And 317 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: any records from the University of Birmingham about any testing 318 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: that was done on those remains have also vanished. This 319 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: has led to some speculation of a cover up, but 320 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: it could also just be really terrible bookkeeping. Yeah, I'm 321 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: gonna hold out hope that one day it will be 322 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: one of those. Look what we found in our own 323 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: collection of human remains correctly. And the thing to keep 324 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: in mind too, um, and I know this from my 325 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: years working in the library, is that there were things 326 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: that happened during more time that really messed up record keeping. 327 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: You know. It wasn't necessarily that people were lazy or 328 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: trying to cover anything up. There was just there were 329 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: times when an air raid would happen and everything would 330 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: be shuffled around and stuff got lost. Yeah. Well, and 331 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: even if you are really careful, human beings still make errors. 332 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: And if you have a gigantic collection and are still accurate, 333 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: that's a bunch of errors. Anyway, coming up, we're going 334 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: to talk about an m I five file that might 335 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: actually give some weight to the narrative is that McCormick 336 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: had had reconstructed. But first we're going to take a 337 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: quick break for a word from one of our awesome sponsors. 338 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: A sponsor is me Andy's dot com. 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So 360 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: another bit of information that also shed light on this 361 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: possibility that McCormick's theory had some truth to it a 362 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: declassified file in the British National Archives on Gestapo agent 363 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: Joseph Jacobs, who was an inexperienced, undertrained agent that was 364 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: sent to gather information on weather patterns in the London area. 365 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: Jacobs had parachuted into Cambridgeshire in broken his ankle in 366 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: the drop and was arrested by the Home Guard, which 367 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 1: was a World War two defense organization that was part 368 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: of the British Army. One of the items that Jacobs 369 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: was carrying when the Home Guard apprehended him was a photograph. 370 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: That photo was a picture of a woman named Clara Bowerley, 371 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: a singer and film actress that Jacob said was also 372 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: his paramore. He also told his captors that Clara Bowerley 373 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: was a Nazi secret agent and was supposed to parachute 374 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: into West Midlands that the two of them were supposed 375 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: to have made contact. Jacobs was executed by firing squad 376 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: in the late summer of nineteen forty one, and this 377 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: turned out to be the last execution at the Tower 378 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,360 Speaker 1: of London. Uh. He could also easily be an episode 379 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,959 Speaker 1: subject on his own. These m I five records on 380 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: Jacobs included an investigation of Bauerley. She was born in 381 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: nineteen o six, meaning that in nineteen forty one she 382 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: would have been thirty five, which was the right age 383 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: to put the pathology report of the witch Elm victim. 384 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: And she did work in music halls in the West 385 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: Midland area for two years before World War two began, 386 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: and she learned to speak English with no trace of 387 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: a German accent. When the woman who had been calling 388 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: herself Anna contacted the police in the nineteen fifties claiming 389 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: to have knowledge of the crime, she had mentioned a 390 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: music hall in the information that she gave to the police. 391 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: And while this might seem to tidily wrap up the 392 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: identity of Bella quite nicely, because the pieces do seem 393 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: to fit together, uh, Joseph Jacobs's granddaughter, who has long 394 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: examined the details of her grandfather's life, actually obtained a 395 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: death certificate for Clara Bauerley, indicating that in fact, She 396 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: died in Berlin in December ninety two of aronal poisoning. 397 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: I eat not stuffed into a tree in England. Of course, 398 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: gossip turned up a huge variety of other possibilities about 399 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: Bella's identity. She might have taken shelter in the tree 400 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: during an air raid and gotten stuck. She might have 401 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: been murdered by a lover and clumsily hidden in the tree. 402 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: She may have been a traveler or a Romani who 403 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 1: was killed out of mere suspicion. And there was even 404 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: a lead that, at least in terms of plausibility, seems 405 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: fairly valid. So on April seven of nineteen forty four, 406 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: a sex worker from Birmingham told police that a woman 407 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: that she knew had gone missing on Hagley Road or 408 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: in that area three years earlier, and that woman's name 409 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: was Bella. If this information garnered follow up from the police, 410 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: it does not appear to have gotten much traction. Incidentally, 411 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: this whole graffiti of who put Bella in the witch 412 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: Elm has continued in the seven decades since the murder 413 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: was discovered. There's an obelisk in Hagley Park called the 414 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: Witchbury Obelisk, and it's been the most frequently tagged location 415 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: since the nineteen seventies. Presumably at this point it's kids 416 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: trying to be spooky, and the spelling has changed from 417 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: w y c H to w I t c H. 418 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: It's definitely not somebody trying to communicate a kind of 419 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: clue about the unsolved murder case. At this point, it 420 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: is like, was here but exactly, And it's very possible 421 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: that it never was anything but people pulling pranks, but 422 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: we just don't know, uh. In A statistical analysis of 423 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: all of the known data in the Hagleywood's murder was 424 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: done by researchers Norm and Fenton and Martin Neil using 425 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: Bayesian analysis, and they determined a number of things. They 426 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: they're actually in that BBC radio uh piece that we 427 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, but then they also wrote a paper separately 428 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: where they explained it all and that thing is fabulous. 429 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: Um so it'll be in the show notes. But the 430 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: first thing that they determined is that there is a 431 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: probability that the cause of death was criminal. That one 432 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: is the completely unsurprising correct. There's a ninety seven percent 433 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: probability that Bella was not British. Less than two percent 434 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: chance that she was Dutch and an eighteen percent chance 435 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: that she was German. There is a nine percent probability 436 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: that Bella was still alive when she was put in 437 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: the tree. That's awful. That kind of holds with that 438 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 1: whole story that the men had put her there to 439 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: scare her and that she had somehow become stuck. There's 440 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: a thirty three percent possibility that Jack Massa was involved 441 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: in her death and seven percent that it was some 442 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: kind of intelligence service. In order to increase that probability 443 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: to a nine percent chance that Massa was involved, the 444 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: researchers model would have required four additional witnesses in addition 445 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: to Youn Massup and his cousin Judith, And there is 446 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: a twenty five percent probability that Bella was a spy 447 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: and a six percent probability that she was a prostitute. 448 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 1: In their paper on this study, the researchers were very 449 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: clear that there are lots of variables that could quit 450 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: really quickly change the whole statistical picture. For example, they're 451 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 1: working under the assumption that police involved in the investigation 452 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: really did exhaust all the leads in each instance where 453 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: they felt like there was a dead end. If they 454 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: left a stone unturned here there, then the models shifts significantly. Additionally, 455 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: there's the credibility of various witnesses. Yeah, if you um 456 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: increase or dec secredibility rating of various witnesses, that model 457 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: changes really quickly as well. But of course, all of 458 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: those numbers do not settle this crime conclusively, and Bella 459 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: story remains a mystery, and considering the age of the case, 460 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: it is unlikely that this murder will ever be solved unless, 461 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: as Tracy mentioned earlier, the remains uh or the university 462 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: lab files suddenly turn up. So that is our spooky 463 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: unsolved mystery for Halloween. Uh. And we hope yours is 464 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: safe and that you do not end up in a 465 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: tree stuff. Don't you can climb a tree safely if 466 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: you want to do that. I have never climbed a 467 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: tree really Yeah. Uh dirty, They're dirty, and I'm scared. 468 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: That's the bottom line. Uh. My mother had very clear 469 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: rules about how large the branch could be for us 470 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: to safely climb the tree, and if we climbed up 471 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: into branches that were narrower than that, I think it 472 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: had to be at least as uh as big as 473 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: our arm I can't remember it was our armor, like 474 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: there was a body part that we had to compare 475 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: before we put our weight on any tree limb. Yeah, 476 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: my mother. My mother is very concerned with safety. I've 477 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: had many friends through the years who were big into 478 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: tree climbing, and they always look at me like I'm 479 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: some sort of mutant when I'm like, I've never climbed 480 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: a tree and I feel no urge to change that. 481 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: That's fine if you have some listener mail, though I do. 482 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: I have three pieces of listener mail, but they're brief. 483 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 1: The first one comes from our listener Kaylee. She sent 484 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: us a lovely parcel. She says, Hi, ladies, I've been 485 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: a longtime listener to the podcast and I finally decided 486 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: to write in after the John Brown Rate episode. I 487 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: am a museum curator for the National Park Service and 488 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: currently work in Harper's Ferry. Yeah, how great is that? 489 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: I read all our email, but I forgot this one. Well, 490 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: this was an email. It's a parcel. That's why you 491 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: haven't seen it. Uh. I moved here earlier this year 492 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: from Georgia. I was so decited to listen to the 493 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: episode because it gave me more insight than I had 494 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: already gathered. Keep doing what you do. I enjoy every 495 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: episode as it gets me through the mundane tasks at work. 496 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: Stay fabulous, Kaylee and Kaylee also sent us cool um 497 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: magnets and UH State Quarters just send us a lovely 498 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: little partial thank you, Kayley. That's the coolest. That's awesome, 499 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: That's really cool. And then I have two emails from 500 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: our very recent podcast on Vincent Price. First one says, hi, ladies, 501 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: I listened to your recent Victoria Price interview and I 502 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: was delighted to hear her mention that someone had emailed 503 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: her about their Vincent Price cooking blog, because that someone 504 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: was me. My partner and I have been huge fans 505 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: of Vincent Price. It's childhood and we love to cook, 506 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: so we decided to do thirty one days of Vincent 507 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: Price Cooking for the month of October. It seemed fitting. 508 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: Check out the blog if you would like, and let 509 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: me know if you've tried any of the recipes we've 510 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: tried or any we haven't that you recommend. That blog 511 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: can be found at thirty one days of Vincent Recipes 512 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: dot tumbler dot com. Uh. I love the interview with Victoria. 513 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: Isn't she just incredible? The answer to that is yes, Um, 514 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: she's amazing. So I did look at their blog and 515 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: they're Oh, they're doing such lovely little things. They're making 516 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: yummy stuff. It makes me want to bake all the 517 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: tarts because he has a lot of tarts in that book. 518 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: My favorite is still the Lobster brisk It's very heavy 519 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: and rich, but it's so delicious. My next one is 520 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: a fun story about Vincent Price from someone. We've had 521 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: a couple of people mentioned that they've seen him lecture 522 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: or that they ran into him at some point in 523 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: their lives, and this one was very sweet. So it 524 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: comes from our listener by Bette. She says, your interview 525 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: with Victoria Price was wonderful and it reminded me of 526 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: my Vincent Price story in ninety eight. I was on 527 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: an eighth grade trip into New York City and we 528 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: were allowed to scatter once. We were at the Whitney 529 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: Museum of Modern Art, and I was with a friend 530 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: near a very modern piece of art, a boulder surrounded 531 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: by a series of concentric circles of different types types 532 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: of stone granite. I noticed a very tall and distinguished 533 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: man in the room who looked oh so familiar, but 534 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure who he was. My friend, who probably 535 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: recognized him, goaded me to get his autograph, but I 536 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: still wasn't sure who he was, so I did what 537 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: any brave but confused team would do. I walked up 538 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: to him and I said, who are you? He smiled 539 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: and bent at the waist until he was closer to 540 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: my height of five four, and in his remarkable deep voice, 541 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: he practically saying why. And as soon as I heard 542 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: that voice, I knew exactly who he was, and I 543 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: asked for his autograph, which he gave me written in 544 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: very beautiful script, Vincent Price was my first celebrities signing 545 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: slash autograph and a thrill that I will never forget. 546 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: That's the sweetest story. Yeah, we I mean. On on 547 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: social media, we've gotten so many cute, like sort of 548 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: brief stories. One person had tweeted at me and said 549 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: that a friend that she knows uh lived not far 550 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: from him when she was a girl, and he would 551 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: sometimes bring cookies out to the kids at the bus 552 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: stop while they waited. Like there are just so many 553 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: cute little stories that have come up that it just 554 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: is delightful. Uh. If you would like to write to us, 555 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: you could do so at History Podcast at how stuff 556 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: works dot com. You can also find us across social 557 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: media as missed in History. That's at Twitter at misston History, 558 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: Facebook dot com, slash mist in History, Instagram at misst 559 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: in history, uh, mist in history dot tumbler dot com, 560 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: and on pinterest dot com slash mist in history. If 561 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: you would like to come to our parents site, how 562 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,719 Speaker 1: stuff Works, you can type almost anything that you can 563 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: think of in the search bar and you will get 564 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: a load of content to delight and entertain yourself. You 565 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: can also visit Tracy and me at misston History dot com, 566 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: where we have all of our old episodes, the entire 567 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: archive of the show, as well as show notes from 568 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: the last several years that Tracy and I have been 569 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: on the show in the occasional other goody So come 570 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: and visit us at misst in history dot com and 571 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com for more on this and 572 00:31:51,120 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com.