Speaker 1: Evite says the average American hasn't made a new friend
Speaker 1: in five years.
Speaker 2: I was going to be shocked at first, but true true.
Speaker 1: My first curiosity is when did evite jump into friendship research?
Speaker 2: People are still sending evites? I guess Oh.
Speaker 1: I hate when I get those.
Speaker 2: I can never open it. I click it in that
Speaker 2: little envelope be halfway flipping over and it don't flip
Speaker 2: all the way over. Frustrating.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna call you and say, in thirty minutes,
Speaker 1: hop on.
Speaker 2: Zoom, that's the type of friend my friend Zekiya is.
Speaker 2: I'm t T and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify. This
Speaker 2: is dope labs. I feel like friendships are always being tested,
Speaker 2: but more so now because of quarantine.
Speaker 1: Yes, we know some of your friends partied on the
Speaker 1: fourth and now they want to come up to your house.
Speaker 1: So what you're gonna do.
Speaker 2: Y'all not coming to my house with your COVID shirts
Speaker 2: and your COVID pants and your COVID hands. I'm not
Speaker 2: not in my house.
Speaker 3: Not.
Speaker 1: Let me tell you. She is laying down the law,
Speaker 1: and it's firm. A couple of weeks ago, it was
Speaker 1: my birthday, she showed up and stood out there in
Speaker 1: the blazing hot sun, fifteen to twenty feet from my
Speaker 1: door with her mask on. I'm surprised you didn't have
Speaker 1: on goggles on top of your glasses.
Speaker 2: I'm not playing around. I don't want to get sick,
Speaker 2: and I don't want to get other people sick. I'm
Speaker 2: thinking about the global community. But that where y'all do
Speaker 2: not care.
Speaker 1: But you do care, and that's something that I love
Speaker 1: about you as a friend. This TT is the most
Speaker 1: caring a right. You need something to balance out because
Speaker 1: you know on the other side.
Speaker 2: Ruthless. Okay, I'm super excited about this episode today though,
Speaker 2: because we are talking all about friendship, and.
Speaker 1: I know friendship has been on some of y'all's minds
Speaker 1: because I see you subtweeting your subtweeting folks when Insecure
Speaker 1: is on.
Speaker 2: Yes, everybody's like, oh, I know a Molly, and I
Speaker 2: see a lot of people pointing fingers that Molly's in
Speaker 2: their lives. But it's so funny because none of y'all
Speaker 2: are saying, y'all are Molly.
Speaker 1: How is that possible? You gotta hold that mirror up
Speaker 1: and you gotta say self, y'all already know we're best friends,
Speaker 1: but for this episode, we wanted to hear from some
Speaker 1: other best friends too.
Speaker 2: So we brought in real life best friends and hosts
Speaker 2: of the podcast Call Your Girlfriend, Ann Friedman and Ami
Speaker 2: Na Tu.
Speaker 3: So. My name is Ann Friedman.
Speaker 4: I am Ami Not So.
Speaker 3: We co host the podcast Call Your Girlfriend, and we
Speaker 3: co wrote the book Friendship, How We Keep each Other Close.
Speaker 4: It's available July fourteenth wherever you buy books, but especially
Speaker 4: at your local indie bookshop, or please borrow it from
Speaker 4: your local library.
Speaker 1: I already read it.
Speaker 2: I already read it, and I have my hard copy
Speaker 2: pre ordered.
Speaker 1: You'll hear them chiming in throughout the episode with their
Speaker 1: own experiences and thoughts about friendship.
Speaker 2: Let's get into the recitation. So what do we know?
Speaker 1: Well, we know most people have friends. Now, those friends
Speaker 1: you have might range and likability, but they're there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, some friends are better than others, and some friendships
Speaker 2: are just for a season.
Speaker 1: And some friendships turned into a podcast. That's right, But
Speaker 1: what do we want to know?
Speaker 2: I feel like people use the term friend so loosely
Speaker 2: these days, so I want to know how do you
Speaker 2: define a friend like a real friend?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what makes a good friend.
Speaker 2: Conflict is going to in every relationship, So how do
Speaker 2: you navigate those waters? And if you feel like you
Speaker 2: need to part ways with that friend, how do you
Speaker 2: break up?
Speaker 1: You know, I often hear humans or social creatures, but
Speaker 1: is that unique to us? You know my stance, We're
Speaker 1: all just animals, So is there evidence of friendship in
Speaker 1: other animals?
Speaker 2: And during this time in quarantine, when we're all in
Speaker 2: our houses and not able to meet up with our
Speaker 2: friends like we normally do, what do we do to
Speaker 2: combat those feelings of loneliness that we have because we're
Speaker 2: all separate.
Speaker 1: And we know we run't alone with these questions. And
Speaker 1: and Aminatu had the same questions while writing their.
Speaker 2: Book, and we know that you might have the same
Speaker 2: questions too, So let's jump into the dissection.
Speaker 1: Today's guest expert is doctor Marissa g. Franco.
Speaker 5: Hello, everybody, I'm doctor Borissa Gifranco. I am a psychologist
Speaker 5: and a friendship expert.
Speaker 2: We asked her all our questions about friendship and how
Speaker 2: to make the most of it. Let's dive right in
Speaker 2: and start with the basic definition of friendship.
Speaker 1: Mariam Webster says friendship is the state of being friends
Speaker 1: but that's not really helpful. What happened to not using
Speaker 1: a word to define another word?
Speaker 2: Did y'all learn that room, Mariam?
Speaker 1: That's exactly well, how does it define a friend?
Speaker 2: It says a friend is a person whom one knows
Speaker 2: and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection,
Speaker 2: typically exclusive of sexual or family relations.
Speaker 1: But the rap group Houdini told us that the dictionary
Speaker 1: doesn't really know the meaning of friends, so we asked
Speaker 1: doctor Franco.
Speaker 5: But for me, personally, I feel like I define a
Speaker 5: friendship as a relationship where there's mutual love that rejuvenates
Speaker 5: it replenishes me.
Speaker 2: I mean not too and Anne explain the term that
Speaker 2: they coined, big friendship.
Speaker 3: I think we were really looking for a term that
Speaker 3: was not best friend and also, so you know, something
Speaker 3: beyond like bestie or BFF, which feels, you know, a
Speaker 3: little younger, like we're in an adult friendship with its
Speaker 3: own adult pros and cons, and big friendship felt like
Speaker 3: an important way of staking out some new language for
Speaker 3: the kind of long term, really mutually supportive and intimate
Speaker 3: friendship that we have. And it sounds like you all
Speaker 3: have too.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like best friends, but in a
Speaker 1: suit all grown up. But what makes a good friend?
Speaker 1: Doctor Franco gave us three main things you should expect
Speaker 1: if you're looking for a good friend or want to
Speaker 1: be one.
Speaker 2: The first one is a good friend should be rooting
Speaker 2: for you.
Speaker 5: When we really become a friend with someone, we begin
Speaker 5: to incorporate them into our sense of our own identity.
Speaker 5: So what that means is that, like, if they feel hurt,
Speaker 5: we feel hurt. If they feel good, we feel good.
Speaker 5: The boundaries between ourselves and other people are emotionally decrease
Speaker 5: when we become friends with someone.
Speaker 1: The second thing is that there should be some shared vulnerability.
Speaker 5: Where you're sharing and revealing things about yourself and they're
Speaker 5: doing the same.
Speaker 2: And the third thing is that you guys support one another.
Speaker 5: I like to say that a friendship in general should
Speaker 5: be fifty to fifty in the book of the friendship,
Speaker 5: but each chapter will be different. In times of crisis,
Speaker 5: one friend might need a hundred while you're getting zero,
Speaker 5: and that's going to be shifting over time.
Speaker 1: That sounds good overall, but getting that balance just right
Speaker 1: can be tricky.
Speaker 2: Yeah, cause I'm sure some friends when you're given twenty
Speaker 2: five percent and they have to give seventy five percent.
Speaker 2: They might feel some type of way.
Speaker 1: Here's what Anne says about this, and I think that's
Speaker 1: generally true.
Speaker 3: But what's hard about it, like living it in real time,
Speaker 3: is like you don't know what the whole book is,
Speaker 3: Like you know, all you know is the chapter you're in,
Speaker 3: in the chapters that have come before.
Speaker 2: That is such a good point, Like when you think
Speaker 2: about it, how do you know when it's your turn
Speaker 2: to carry the heavy load or if you should just
Speaker 2: cut your losses.
Speaker 1: Sometimes that can feel like a lot of work for
Speaker 1: someone who's just a friend. But doctor Franco tells us
Speaker 1: that's exactly the problem framing it as just friendship.
Speaker 5: We need to give friendship more dignity. It's not an
Speaker 5: inferior form of a relationship. We shouldn't be asking people,
Speaker 5: you know, when are you gonna get married, When are
Speaker 5: you're going to get a husband? We should ask them
Speaker 5: like have you found community? Because that's what's most important,
Speaker 5: like that you feel a sense of belonging with other people.
Speaker 2: And the research shows us that these three points are
Speaker 2: important for friendships and romantic relationships.
Speaker 1: The research says that one of the best predictors of
Speaker 1: whether people stay together and are satisfied with their romantic
Speaker 1: relationships is whether they feel like they're friends with their partner.
Speaker 1: So friendship does matter.
Speaker 5: And so friendship is actually part of what makes romantic
Speaker 5: relationships last, like the sense of I feel like you
Speaker 5: fully see me, I feel like I'm fully seen by you.
Speaker 5: I feel like we show up for another and support
Speaker 5: one another. All of those traits that we see in
Speaker 5: our friends are also what makes romance buzz and continue
Speaker 5: and be sustained.
Speaker 1: You already know how I feel about friendship.
Speaker 2: Yes, Zakia is how do I say this? Sakia is
Speaker 2: an intense friend. She's a all no friend. But in
Speaker 2: bold italics and underlined, well, just.
Speaker 1: For the record, we know friendship can literally change your life.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. My life would not be the same without Zekiah.
Speaker 2: We would not be doing this podcast if Zekiah were
Speaker 2: not my friend.
Speaker 1: Well, I've met more along the lines of what studies
Speaker 1: show us. But yeah, studies show us that friends improve
Speaker 1: your self confidence, your self worth, and help you cope
Speaker 1: with trauma and more. There's a correlation between a strong
Speaker 1: social support network and lower risk for health problems like depression,
Speaker 1: high blood pressure, and high BMI.
Speaker 2: So we're getting double the benefits friendship and health, but
Speaker 2: I mean not too says you still have to do
Speaker 2: the work to get your friendship to that point, and
Speaker 2: that can be tricky.
Speaker 4: There is not a lot of social support for how
Speaker 4: you're supposed to be in a friendship. I always feel
Speaker 4: awkward when I have friend drama in a way that
Speaker 4: I don't feel awkward when I have romantic drama. I'm
Speaker 4: always like, uh, I know how to deal with that,
Speaker 4: you know. I'm like, I have scripts for that, you know.
Speaker 4: I was like television says you like key their car,
Speaker 4: or you do that, you know, Not that I'm saying
Speaker 4: that that's what you're supposed to do. I just think
Speaker 4: that there's there's so much like visual imagery for like
Speaker 4: to represent a kind of internal turmoil that you can have.
Speaker 4: But like telling you a friend, Like if I got
Speaker 4: a text from a friend that was like we need
Speaker 4: to talk, I'm like, I am already halfway to Uganda.
Speaker 4: I'm like I'm out of here, Like I don't need
Speaker 4: to talk to.
Speaker 2: You, right. No one wants to have those awkward conversations,
Speaker 2: But after you have.
Speaker 1: Them, I feel like it makes you grow stronger.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the whole Like pressure make Simon's things.
Speaker 2: I think that can also apply to friendship, like the
Speaker 2: hard times makes it more beautiful, We.
Speaker 1: Asked, I mean, not to an end, how to make
Speaker 1: friendship more official? So how do you get to the
Speaker 1: point where you and lockstep and just unbreakable?
Speaker 2: It feels weird to say, hey, friend, I know we
Speaker 2: just met, but are you ready to take this friendship
Speaker 2: to the next level?
Speaker 3: Hearing you say that makes me think about a communications
Speaker 3: professor we interviewed who was saying that one of the
Speaker 3: hallmarks of friendships that last a long time is that
Speaker 3: they contain these assurances wherein you have said out loud
Speaker 3: to each other that hey, we want to be friends
Speaker 3: for a long time.
Speaker 2: This actually happened in Menzakia's friendship, where we said out loud,
Speaker 2: or Zekia said out loud that we were gonna be
Speaker 2: friends from friends forever. Minzekia had a disagreement.
Speaker 1: Do you remember what it was about? I have no clue.
Speaker 2: It was so long ago and I truly do not remember,
Speaker 2: but we had a disagreement. It was very early in
Speaker 2: our friendship, and you know me, I felt like, okay, well,
Speaker 2: we don't know each other that well, we've had this disagreement.
Speaker 2: That means we probably are not friends anymore. And so
Speaker 2: the next day I get at message from Zekiah and
Speaker 2: she's like, oh, come to my lab.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean why not. That's what we have been
Speaker 1: doing every day before that.
Speaker 2: And so I was like, well, dang, I guess she
Speaker 2: want to fight or something like she want to argue
Speaker 2: some more. I don't know. And so I went over
Speaker 2: there and I was like, hey, girl, what's up? Because
Speaker 2: I didn't know what to expect, and she don't stand offish,
Speaker 2: and she was like, girl, this happened.
Speaker 1: Da da dada da.
Speaker 2: Oh we need to do this, We need to do that,
Speaker 2: Da da da da, and just was acting like nothing happened.
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, you know, I thought you
Speaker 2: were upset. I thought we weren't friends anymore.
Speaker 1: I was devastated.
Speaker 2: Zakia started crying. Well, if you know Zekiah, you know
Speaker 2: it really doesn't take much for her to her eyes
Speaker 2: to well up with tears. But she was just so
Speaker 2: she looked like she was blindsided. She was like, what
Speaker 2: we are friends forever?
Speaker 5: Now?
Speaker 2: You made me sound like a h This sounds like
Speaker 2: a hostage situation. It is it is someone help help.
Speaker 1: I think I just thought there was some permanence that
Speaker 1: I had conveyed, you know, And I think from that,
Speaker 1: I felt like I haven't said the things to make
Speaker 1: you feel safe and secure in this friendship. And so
Speaker 1: I decided right then with that, Pipette id wed to friendship.
Speaker 1: I do, I do. We all know friendship is good
Speaker 1: for us, So why do we keep hitting these stumbling
Speaker 1: box Why do we keep fumbling the bag?
Speaker 2: Yes, friendships are so complicated, but they are so important.
Speaker 2: And when we get back, we're going to talk about
Speaker 2: why you should prioritize your friendships and.
Speaker 1: How to navigate them. Once you do, we're back and
Speaker 1: we're ready to jump right into the peaks and valleys
Speaker 1: of friendship.
Speaker 2: Doctor Franco talked to us about how society has conditioned
Speaker 2: us to feel like our friendships are not important, but
Speaker 2: that's not true.
Speaker 5: Like the ways that we have our society is set up.
Speaker 5: It's actually like if you're not in a romantic relationship,
Speaker 5: you're at a disadvantage. Like there's all these privileges that
Speaker 5: are afforded to people who are in a romantic relationships
Speaker 5: that are not afforded to people that live a life
Speaker 5: of deep connection through friendship.
Speaker 1: Here's i'm Anato's tape.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and for me, it's like that is
Speaker 4: such a reality of my life. It's like my four
Speaker 4: oh one K recipient is a friend my the person
Speaker 4: who has my medical directive and power of attorney is
Speaker 4: my friend, you know. And every time it's you know,
Speaker 4: you're kind of at the mercy of what happens when
Speaker 4: you know, if someone challenges that policy directly, it's like
Speaker 4: I can tell you that, like I have had friends
Speaker 4: come and visit me in the hospital and seeing like
Speaker 4: medical professionals kind of bristle a little bit at it,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, no, no, this is not just my friend, Like,
Speaker 4: this is my literal person that will like that is
Speaker 4: going to take care of you know, that's going to
Speaker 4: have to deal with a body if I don't come
Speaker 4: out of here alive. So you have to respect that bond.
Speaker 4: But I think that you're you're really identifying like all
Speaker 4: of the ways that you know, we minimize a really
Speaker 4: intense emotional relationship that we can have with someone because
Speaker 4: capitalism and society ultimately is shaped in a way where
Speaker 4: marriage just reigns. As you know, this this bond that
Speaker 4: is unbreakable, and I'm like, all I know is divorce people.
Speaker 1: So I was like, I like, the premise is flawed.
Speaker 2: All this sounds good, right, Me and Zakia have had
Speaker 2: a really great friendship, but we both have friends that
Speaker 2: are no longer our friends, and that is when it
Speaker 2: gets really difficult. So we wanted to know how to
Speaker 2: navigate the conflict waters with your friends. Yes, those are
Speaker 2: choppy waters, Hella, choppy, those are like hurricane in the
Speaker 2: middle of the ocean waters.
Speaker 5: Open pathtic conflict actually is related to having a deeper
Speaker 5: sense of friendship. But the reality is that friendship actually
Speaker 5: tends to be a relationship of things left up. Said,
Speaker 5: You're a lot less likely to mention a problem in
Speaker 5: a friendship than you are in a romantic relationship, and
Speaker 5: that's because I think people fear that if you bring
Speaker 5: something up, you know, because friendships we don't maybe have
Speaker 5: the same amount of time together as romantic relationships or
Speaker 5: even this formal meritive about they feel more fragile. And
Speaker 5: I think people have a lot of fear around engaging
Speaker 5: in conflict because of that.
Speaker 2: And I think that's true. I've heard of a lot
Speaker 2: of people including myself, who just kind of stopped talking
Speaker 2: to folks and don't bring up what the problem is
Speaker 2: and just say we're just not friends anymore. We had
Speaker 2: a falling out, we grew apart or whatever.
Speaker 1: I feel like if I'm not close with someone, it's
Speaker 1: much easier for me to say this is what's wrong,
Speaker 1: this is what's bothering me. But for my close friends,
Speaker 1: I know that when I'm upset, nobody wants to hear
Speaker 1: those words. And I don't want to say anything that
Speaker 1: I don't mean, and so I just wait and wait,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, when are you When do you feel
Speaker 1: like you've really got it just down to a tee?
Speaker 1: And by that time I look like a crazy person.
Speaker 1: Five years ago, thirty seven weeks ago, on a Tuesday, you.
Speaker 2: Said, and I'm like, what did I say?
Speaker 1: No, we could all use some tips on getting a
Speaker 1: conversation started when there's conflict.
Speaker 4: Like, it's not something that you learn when you're six
Speaker 4: years old and then you just you know how to
Speaker 4: be a good friend. It's like some people are good
Speaker 4: friends and some people are not. I'm like, no, it's
Speaker 4: just you have to constantly You were constantly challenged as
Speaker 4: a person.
Speaker 2: Doctor Franco says that there is a best way to
Speaker 2: enter into conflict with your friend, and it's based on
Speaker 2: a theory called reciprocity theory, and it's basically the idea
Speaker 2: that people respond to you how you talk to them.
Speaker 2: So if you're kind to them, they're likely to be
Speaker 2: kind in return, and if you nice and nasty, they're
Speaker 2: gonna be nice and nasty back.
Speaker 5: First thing you need to do is you need to
Speaker 5: be able to enter into this conversation from a place
Speaker 5: of empathy and perspective taking. And if you feel really
Speaker 5: angry and stressed out, then that is not the time
Speaker 5: to enter the conversation. So first you need to get
Speaker 5: your mind and your energy ready right.
Speaker 2: So, if we're thinking about the whole conflict with Molly
Speaker 2: and Lisa, Molly could have really used these steps to
Speaker 2: help her talk to Lisa in a way that could
Speaker 2: have preserved their friendship and they could have been back
Speaker 2: on track a lot sooner. So first Molly could have
Speaker 2: been like, let me not assume the worst of her.
Speaker 2: This is my friend, We've been friends for so long.
Speaker 2: Let me come into the space with my heart open
Speaker 2: and ready to forgive.
Speaker 5: Then you open up the conflict with a sentence that
Speaker 5: is welcoming and inviting and affirms the value of the friendship.
Speaker 5: So I think with my friend, I said something like,
Speaker 5: I love you. Our friendship is so important to me,
Speaker 5: which is why I want to make sure that I'm
Speaker 5: expressed things that are weighing on me so that they
Speaker 5: don't get into the way of our bond. So that's
Speaker 5: a lot better than you know, we need to talk
Speaker 5: because I'm pissed.
Speaker 1: So Molly could have just said, Lisa, we've been friends
Speaker 1: for a really long time and there's something that has
Speaker 1: been on my mind. It's been weighing on me, and
Speaker 1: I just got to get it off my chest because
Speaker 1: I love you and I don't want it to get
Speaker 1: in the way of our friendship.
Speaker 2: I love that this does not feel like an argument.
Speaker 5: Then what you do is you share your internal world.
Speaker 5: You don't tell them about what they did. You tell
Speaker 5: them about they how what they did affected you. And
Speaker 5: that's what you share. You share that vulnerability because the
Speaker 5: vulnerability is what brings people's guards down and welcomes them
Speaker 5: to be vulnerable too. After you share your vulnerability, I
Speaker 5: statements not you, statements not you did a horrible thing
Speaker 5: I felt this way, and then you ask them to
Speaker 5: share their world what was going on.
Speaker 2: For them, so Molly could have said something like what
Speaker 2: brought us to a have For me is when I
Speaker 2: found out that you had talked to Nathan to talk
Speaker 2: to my boyfriend about getting an ad for the block party.
Speaker 2: That made me feel like you weren't taking my feelings
Speaker 2: into consideration because we had had a conversation already and
Speaker 2: that hurt.
Speaker 1: I think that's a way better approach than how we
Speaker 1: normally handle things, which is why was you talking behind
Speaker 1: my back and I already told you and.
Speaker 2: Started a fight at ASA's job at the block party?
Speaker 2: That was so inappropriate.
Speaker 5: Last you asked them for what you want to see
Speaker 5: in the future, so you say like something like, hey,
Speaker 5: next time when I need support, could you please just
Speaker 5: reach out to.
Speaker 2: Me going forward, because I value you as a friend
Speaker 2: and I don't want to lose you as a friend.
Speaker 2: Let's just talk it out a little bit more. I
Speaker 2: think that conversation deserved more time so that maybe you
Speaker 2: could have understood my perspective a little bit better and
Speaker 2: we could have came to some other conclusion to try
Speaker 2: and help you out with the work. You were doing,
Speaker 2: because I know it's important to you.
Speaker 1: And it's important not to beat up on ourselves as
Speaker 1: we go through this process. Friendship is not perfect. We're
Speaker 1: all just figuring it out as we go, and and
Speaker 1: says she and Amina Tou are no different.
Speaker 3: In defense of our past selves. We're not really trained
Speaker 3: to recognize the like the emotions associated with awkwardness or
Speaker 3: conflict within a friendship, especially the kinds of stuff we
Speaker 3: write about, which are not huge, dramatic transgressions. They were
Speaker 3: like little moments when we were missing each other that
Speaker 3: later became big moments.
Speaker 2: Right Because in their book they talk about this interaction
Speaker 2: or conflict that they had that surrounds this friend group
Speaker 2: called the Desert Ladies. Definitely read about it. It was
Speaker 2: very very interesting, and it was a conflict that they
Speaker 2: ended up not really resolving.
Speaker 4: Actually what happened is that years later it just exploded
Speaker 4: in our faces that something that we hadn't talked about
Speaker 4: was one of the very original sins of many many
Speaker 4: disagreements that we'd had. And so I think that with
Speaker 4: the hindsight, with the knowledge of hindsight, is really understanding
Speaker 4: that if I am not comfortable about something and how
Speaker 4: I relate with someone else, like a special a close friend.
Speaker 4: It's very possible that they have that same discomfort and
Speaker 4: they're just not saying it because it seems like a
Speaker 4: small thing.
Speaker 1: That's a really good point, and hopefully we can start
Speaker 1: to have these reminders to check in with yourself. Is
Speaker 1: this just in my head? Or did I say something
Speaker 1: out loud so someone else know? You know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: I know that sounds crazy alone. Yes, it's just in
Speaker 1: my head.
Speaker 2: No, it's not just in your head. Say those things
Speaker 2: out loud. Probably most times it's not even as serious
Speaker 2: as you think. Or it's a misunderstanding that you guys
Speaker 2: can get over. But if you keep spinning your wheels
Speaker 2: in your head and assuming and thinking like all these
Speaker 2: awful things, then it'll affect your relationship downstream.
Speaker 1: So these are some good strategies, but we all know
Speaker 1: that it doesn't always turn out like this.
Speaker 2: Yes, me and as a kid have been friends for
Speaker 2: a long time, but we also have friends that we
Speaker 2: are no longer friends with, so it doesn't always end
Speaker 2: up with a podcast.
Speaker 1: So when you gotta do it, what's the best way
Speaker 1: to break up with a friend?
Speaker 5: I would say that the answer is going to differ
Speaker 5: depending on how close you are. If you're kind of
Speaker 5: like casual acquaintances, I think it's okay to like just
Speaker 5: kind of back away or be busy. But once you
Speaker 5: get into the stage where you're like actually close and
Speaker 5: you're actually friends, you want to have a direct conversation.
Speaker 5: And the reason that is is because if you don't,
Speaker 5: you trigger something called ambiguous loss. An ambiguous loss is
Speaker 5: when people can't process an ending because they didn't get
Speaker 5: the necessary closure, and so it leads them to ruminate
Speaker 5: and obsess. It's kind of like ghosting. Ghosting is an
Speaker 5: ambiguous loss, and they're not able to move forward, and
Speaker 5: so you take away another person's piece. If you're not
Speaker 5: able to, I guess, sacrifice your piece.
Speaker 2: I know this happens from personal experience. When I was
Speaker 2: an undergrad, I had a group of friends and I'm
Speaker 2: still friends with some of them, and some of them
Speaker 2: I'm not. I mean, it's not there's no bad blood
Speaker 2: or anything like that. We just you know, grew apart.
Speaker 2: But then when I was in grad school, I had
Speaker 2: one of those friends find me and reach out, like
Speaker 2: I hadn't talked to them in five six years, and
Speaker 2: they were like, hey, how are you? And I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm good, Yo, how have you been? And then they said,
Speaker 2: you know, I've really been feeling really bad about the
Speaker 2: way our friendship ended. And I'm like, I don't know
Speaker 2: what they're talking about because I don't remember wow. And
Speaker 2: I told them I can't remember any I can't remember
Speaker 2: what happened. I just remember us kind of not talking anymore.
Speaker 2: But there was no like ill will, There was no
Speaker 2: hard feelings. I did not hate them or not like them.
Speaker 2: I didn't even know really myself what happened. It just
Speaker 2: felt like we just grew apart.
Speaker 1: I've definitely been on the other end of that, on
Speaker 1: the other end of the STA, you know. So we
Speaker 1: told the story about a less casual relationship, but one
Speaker 1: of my big friendships we had a falling out and
Speaker 1: it was just just like Anne and I mean not
Speaker 1: too said. It was the piling up of things left unsaid, right,
Speaker 1: It was the weight of a thousand murmurs. So if
Speaker 1: you always get along with somebody, you never sharpen those
Speaker 1: tools to help you navigate conflict. And so when it
Speaker 1: comes along, even if it's tiny, you don't do anything
Speaker 1: about it, and it piles up, and it piles up,
Speaker 1: and it piles up, and then the whole thing just breaks.
Speaker 1: And I think it was not only difficult for the
Speaker 1: two of us, but I think it was difficult for
Speaker 1: all of our friends around us, right because we have
Speaker 1: been this inseparable duo for eight years up until this point,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, it was just like
Speaker 1: no more.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 1: And eventually, you know, we use some of these tools
Speaker 1: to get back to a better place, but it was
Speaker 1: not easy.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: We assume that the only pain we experienced from relationships
Speaker 5: is romantic relationships, but friendship can also be a real
Speaker 5: heavy loss for people too, and there's less of a
Speaker 5: space to greet. It's just like, well, that was just
Speaker 5: a friend, wasn't your partner, wasn't your husband, wasn't your wife?
Speaker 5: But like friends cut deep, they can be just as
Speaker 5: close as like our romantic partners.
Speaker 2: We need to start making safe spaces for folks to
Speaker 2: grieve their lost friendships.
Speaker 1: The ghost of friendship past, that's what I call.
Speaker 2: Them, because it's sad some people have you have these
Speaker 2: friends for years, yeah, and they know everything about you.
Speaker 2: They've helped you through really really tough times and so
Speaker 2: when the friendship ends, it hurts.
Speaker 1: So we've covered all these different angles of having a friend,
Speaker 1: having conflict with a friend, and then breaking it off
Speaker 1: with a friend. But something we haven't discussed is loneliness
Speaker 1: that you can feel even when you do have friends.
Speaker 1: And this is more likely to happen now, especially with
Speaker 1: all of this increased social distancing. Yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: been really tough. This is something that none of us
Speaker 1: have ever experienced before. And so even though you know
Speaker 1: we're tapped into social media, everybody's going on ig live
Speaker 1: and everything like that, I mean, it does feel really
Speaker 1: lonely in quarantine. So we asked doctor Franco, what do
Speaker 1: you do? How do you work through loneliness?
Speaker 5: When we get into a state of loneliness, we have
Speaker 5: two desires. Want is to connect with other people, and
Speaker 5: the other is to protect ourselves. By disconnecting from other people,
Speaker 5: people become far more threatening than they are when we're
Speaker 5: not lonely.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, So it feels like a heavier lift to
Speaker 2: reach out to people when you're feeling lonely, and so
Speaker 2: you're less likely to do it.
Speaker 5: And so what the research finds is that basically, when
Speaker 5: you're lonely, and you interact with people, you're more likely
Speaker 5: to assume that they're rejecting you.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's really crazy, your own brain tricking you like that.
Speaker 2: It'd be your own brain.
Speaker 5: But the most effective intervention for loneliness has actually been
Speaker 5: helping people deal with their thoughts and feelings that come
Speaker 5: out of low because once you're able to recognize that
Speaker 5: that's your lonely brain speaking, you are able to do
Speaker 5: the work of reaching out. And so there's this really
Speaker 5: fascinating technique called the third person method.
Speaker 1: The third person method is when you talk to yourself
Speaker 1: in the third person. So I'd say, Zakiya is lonely
Speaker 1: right now, but Zakia is worried about being rejected, And yes,
Speaker 1: that feels both weird and goofy. But what it does
Speaker 1: is generate some psychological distance in my brain. So it
Speaker 1: allows me to kind of distance what I'm going through
Speaker 1: from what my thoughts are and what's beneath my thoughts,
Speaker 1: and you begin to realize, Okay, the thoughts on having
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily my reality.
Speaker 2: This was so eye opening because I feel like I
Speaker 2: don't know a lot of stuff about myself, and like,
Speaker 2: how good of a friend I am or how bad
Speaker 2: of a friend I am. And so now I have
Speaker 2: these cues that I can think of when I'm interacting
Speaker 2: with my friends to try and be the best friend
Speaker 2: that I can be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely some great tools in here. You know.
Speaker 1: I pride myself on really cultivating my friends. You do,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, girl, you got to go back
Speaker 1: to the drawing board.
Speaker 2: And based off the stories that you tell me about
Speaker 2: when you were a kid, you have not changed like
Speaker 2: you have always been. No, for real, You've always been
Speaker 2: this really great friend that's really in tune with her friends,
Speaker 2: and people just love being around you, and you really
Speaker 2: like to bring people into the fold.
Speaker 1: As you say, But that's not unique to me. A
Speaker 1: lot of what happens in our childhood really influences how
Speaker 1: we make friends as adults.
Speaker 2: Here's ami not too.
Speaker 4: The reason that we write about our childhood so much
Speaker 4: and how we grew up and how we were in
Speaker 4: our family is that actually so much of that informs
Speaker 4: the kind of friend that you are to people Like
Speaker 4: I come from a family where it's not that we
Speaker 4: don't fight. I'm like, we fight, and then like people
Speaker 4: don't talk to each other for ten years, you know,
Speaker 4: like that is it is, that is the baggage that
Speaker 4: I grew up with. When Anne writes about her about
Speaker 4: her childhood, it helped me understand so much about where
Speaker 4: she was coming from also, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: now when we relate to each other, I understand that
Speaker 4: she comes from people that are deeply loyal. They will
Speaker 4: never let you go anywhere, you know, and and there
Speaker 4: is like a security in that. But I think that
Speaker 4: not you know, giving each other truly the benefit of
Speaker 4: like yeah, sure, like we we met ten years ago,
Speaker 4: but I was a whole human being when I met Ann,
Speaker 4: and I you know, and I was I had a
Speaker 4: way that I was then and now the person that
Speaker 4: I am today is very much informed by this relationship
Speaker 4: that I've had. But it also means that all of
Speaker 4: that other baggage is always there underneath.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing about friendship. Because now you're about
Speaker 1: to get me on my soapbox.
Speaker 2: You know, yay, let me put it in place, sit.
Speaker 1: It down on the ground for bett, let me step up.
Speaker 1: I think you know, yes, you are this whole person,
Speaker 1: but I think there's some real truth to that saying
Speaker 1: that you are, you know, the company that you keep ye,
Speaker 1: and I can say, you know, since becoming friends with you,
Speaker 1: I have I feel like a lot of my world
Speaker 1: has just blossomed. The things I was like, Oh no, girl,
Speaker 1: that's not my arina. I don't think I can do that.
Speaker 1: You are a dura cell battery in the back. Okay,
Speaker 1: if you say you might want to go to the moon,
Speaker 1: my friend is like, do you have your suit ready?
Speaker 1: Do you have all the things that you need ready? Here?
Speaker 1: I'm here to help you. Do you have your freeze
Speaker 1: drive food? I mean you you bring this such You
Speaker 1: bring such an energy and enthusiasm and care for others
Speaker 1: right that makes you feel almost like you can do anything.
Speaker 1: Which is why I'm out here trying all the crazy
Speaker 1: stuff because I know my friend got my back.
Speaker 2: You know that's because I know my friend can do it.
Speaker 2: And she also brings that energy to me in that
Speaker 2: she comes up with these ideas that she thinks is crazy.
Speaker 2: But I'm like, you have to have a certain level
Speaker 2: of confidence in yourself and your abilities to eat and
Speaker 2: come up with these ideas, and so that inspires me
Speaker 2: to have more and more ideas and not say, oh
Speaker 2: that's stupid. Oh that's not your lane. You can't do that.
Speaker 2: And Zakia is like, no, all these lanes are ours and.
Speaker 1: The lanes for everybody.
Speaker 2: Yes, And so the enthusiasm that I bring to her
Speaker 2: she also feeds to me as well. So it just
Speaker 2: feels like this, this friendship, this big friendship that we've
Speaker 2: fostered over the last ten plus years, is such a
Speaker 2: beautiful thing, and I am so glad that we are here.
Speaker 1: I just want that for everybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody should have Azakia.
Speaker 1: No, that's not what I'm talking to you about. I
Speaker 1: mean I want that big friendship for everybody you know.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think if you are out there and
Speaker 2: you are listening to this episode right now, that you
Speaker 2: need to make sure that you get on social media
Speaker 2: and tag your friends, your besties, the people that you've
Speaker 2: been riding with for a little bit or for a
Speaker 2: long time, and so that we can see and we
Speaker 2: can share it on our page.
Speaker 1: Yes, I can't wait to see all the big friendships.
Speaker 2: That's it for Lab twenty six, but we have so
Speaker 2: much more for you to dig into on our website,
Speaker 2: So go to Dope Labs podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: On our website, you can find a cheat cheat for
Speaker 1: today's lab, along with a ton of other links and
Speaker 1: resources in the show notes.
Speaker 2: And if you want to stay in the know with
Speaker 2: Dope Labs, don't forget to sign up for our newsletter
Speaker 2: on our site too.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to our guest expert, doctor Marissa Gfranco. She's
Speaker 1: writing a book called Platonic. You can find out more
Speaker 1: info on her website, Doctor Marissa Gfranco dot com.
Speaker 2: Also special thanks to our guest hosts and fellow best
Speaker 2: friends Ann Friedman and Ami nati Soa. Their new book,
Speaker 2: Big Friendship, comes out July fourteenth. Go to Big Friendship
Speaker 2: dot com to pre order yours today.
Speaker 1: Yes, also, we love hearing from you. What did you
Speaker 1: think about today's lab? Do you have ideas for future labs?
Speaker 1: Call us at two zero two five six seven seven
Speaker 1: zero two eight and let us know. You can find
Speaker 1: us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope Labs podcast tt
Speaker 1: is on Twitter at dr Underscore, t.
Speaker 2: S h O, and you can find Zakiya at z
Speaker 2: said So.
Speaker 1: Follow us on Spotify or wherever else you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2: Dope Labs is produced by Jenny radalt Mass of WaveRunner.
Speaker 1: Studios, mixing and sound design are by Hannes Brown. Our
Speaker 1: theme music is by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura, with
Speaker 1: additional music by Elijah Lex Harvey. Dope Labs is a
Speaker 1: production of Spotify and Mega Oh Media Group, and it's
Speaker 1: executive produced by us T. T. Show Dia and Zakiah Wattley.
Speaker 1: I want to see was anybody else doing rap squad poses?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: I want to see what you were doing with your friends.
Speaker 2: Yes, from just a few, from just a year, a
Speaker 2: few months ago. I love it.