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Speaker 1: Melissa Lucio grew up poor in South Texas, a victim

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Speaker 1: of years of sexual abuse from multiple offenders in the home.

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Speaker 1: At age sixteen, she married her first boyfriend to escape

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Speaker 1: tying up her self worth and being a mother, so

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Speaker 1: much so that she eventually had fourteen children. The final

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Speaker 1: two were twins that Melissa delivered behind bars after having

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Speaker 1: been accused of allegedly murdering the next youngest sibling, two

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Speaker 1: year old Mariah, on February fifteenth, two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 1: Mariah's older siblings witnessed her take a tumble down the stairs.

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Speaker 1: Lethargy and a lack of appetite were hoped to be

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Speaker 1: symptoms of something less severe than head trauma, but when

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Speaker 1: she became unresponsive on February seventeenth, they called the ms.

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Speaker 1: Mariah passed away, and an aggressive interrogation ensued, resulting in

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Speaker 1: an admission to an overarching sense of guilt that most

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Speaker 1: any mother would feel. The usual bruising from rough play

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Speaker 1: with her siblings was later used to support the state's

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Speaker 1: theory of a pattern of abuse. Melissa's conviction would also

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Speaker 1: go a long way to shore up a tough on

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Speaker 1: crime image for a corrupt district attorney embroiled in a

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Speaker 1: bribery scandal during an election year, Defying logic and the

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Speaker 1: scientific method, the state's forensic pathologists ruled out Maria's fall

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Speaker 1: down the stairs as the cause of the failed head trauma. Further,

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Speaker 1: the children who witnessed the accident and denied the pattern

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Speaker 1: of abuse were not called to testify. After trial, Melissa's

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Speaker 1: defense attorney was immediately hired to the DA's office with

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Speaker 1: a bump and pay. The DA got reelected, but was

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Speaker 1: later prosecuted by the FBI, and Melissa is still on

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Speaker 1: death row. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Today we're talking

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Speaker 1: about the case of Melissa Lucio, an innocent woman on

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Speaker 1: death row in Texas. Today. To tell this incredible, harrowing

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Speaker 1: and urgent story, we have with us Sabrina van Tassel.

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Speaker 1: Sabrina is an acclaimed documentary filmmaker and investigative journalist who

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Speaker 1: has made forty five films and I think maybe it

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Speaker 1: was all a build up to this one. Sabrina, welcome

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Speaker 1: Toronful Conviction. Thank you so much, and with her is

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Speaker 1: a badass Texas attorney named Margaret Schmucker, and Margaret has

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Speaker 1: been a fierce advocate for Melissa as her habeas attorney. Margaret,

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Speaker 1: welcome toronful conviction.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: And thank you both for being here. So over the

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Speaker 1: past few years, Sabrina has visited Melissa Lucio on death

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Speaker 1: row in Texas, where she's been stuck since two thousand

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Speaker 1: and eight. And throughout this episode you're going to hear

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Speaker 1: excerpts from those interviews. You can also see in here

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Speaker 1: in Sabrina's film The State of Texas Versus Melissa. And

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Speaker 1: during those interviews, Melissa really was very candid with you

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Speaker 1: about her life, which was just beyond tragic from the

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Speaker 1: very beginning.

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Speaker 3: So Melissa was born in Houston. Her father left the

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Speaker 3: mom when she was three months old, and they moved

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Speaker 3: to Harlingen, Texas, and the mother kept being, you know,

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Speaker 3: with different boyfriends. They were all abusive.

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Speaker 4: I was.

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Speaker 5: Molested by my mother's boyfriend. I must have been about

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Speaker 5: seven years old when the abuse started. I grew up

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Speaker 5: not really loved because of this incident. I continued to

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Speaker 5: be molested by other family members. I just allowed myself

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Speaker 5: to be a victim over and over again.

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Speaker 3: She did tell her mother that the boyfriend was actually

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Speaker 3: abusing her, and the mother basically did not believe her,

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Speaker 3: and then she basically allowed herself to be a victim

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Speaker 3: to other men in the family. And once she was

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Speaker 3: about fifteen years old, the first boyfriend that she got

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Speaker 3: involved with she married, and she started having a family

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Speaker 3: right after. By the age of twenty two, she already

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Speaker 3: had five children. Her husband introduced her to drugs, and

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Speaker 3: one day the husband just left her, and so all

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Speaker 3: of a sudden, she's twenty two and she has five children,

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Speaker 3: and she meets her other partner, Robert Alvarez, and together

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Speaker 3: they're going to have nine other children, right.

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Speaker 1: And two of those nine were twins that Melissa delivered

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Speaker 1: in jail while she was being held for the alleged

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Speaker 1: murder of her youngest child at that time, Riah. So

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Speaker 1: before Mariah died, there were five from the first guy

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Speaker 1: and seven from Robert Alvarez, for a total of twelve.

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Speaker 1: Some of them were still really little, some of them

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Speaker 1: were teenagers. Some of them had even moved out by

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Speaker 1: the time Febuary two thousand and seven year olds around,

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Speaker 1: which is when this incident happened. But before that they

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Speaker 1: were all living in desperate, desperate poverty and relying on

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Speaker 1: a charity called Loaves and Fishes for most of their meals.

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Speaker 1: Melissa and robert had very unpredictable schedules because they were

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Speaker 1: doing all sorts of odd jobs trying to support the

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Speaker 1: family and to keep up with all of it, or

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Speaker 1: to I don't know, maybe forget their troubles. Melissa and

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Speaker 1: Robert were using drugs out of the sight of the children,

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Speaker 1: but regrettably also while she was pregnant with Mariah.

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Speaker 2: When Melissa had Mariah, the seventh child with Roberta Alvarez,

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Speaker 2: she was born with drugs in her system, and so

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Speaker 2: she was taken from Melissa or mister Albarez by CPS

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Speaker 2: Child Protective Services, along with all of the other kids

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Speaker 2: that were in the home at that time, and they

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Speaker 2: were placed in foster care. They were fairly well split up.

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Speaker 2: That continued for so years, and Melissa and Roberta were

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Speaker 2: given supervised visits with Child Protective Services with the kids,

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Speaker 2: and then finally, when Mariah's about two years old, over Thanksgiving,

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Speaker 2: CPS returned the seven children, who were still minors at

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Speaker 2: the time, back into the home of Melissa and Roberta.

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Speaker 2: And so it is from that point until the point

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Speaker 2: where Mariah dies, where there's nine children in the home

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Speaker 2: in this small second story apartment with a rickety, scary

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Speaker 2: stairwell on the exterior, which is the access point right.

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Speaker 1: And to make this accent even more likely to happen,

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Speaker 1: Mariah had this is important, a physical impairment as well.

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Speaker 1: One of her feet was turned in slightly, which caused

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Speaker 1: her to be unstable and to fall downstairs occasionally, as

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Speaker 1: was documented while she was in foster care. But that's

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Speaker 1: not all that was documented in those Child Protective Services reports.

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Speaker 1: There was a tremendous amount of inter sibling violence while

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Speaker 1: in foster care and when they were living at home,

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Speaker 1: especially from the older sisters disciplining the younger ones who

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Speaker 1: they resented having to care for while their parents were

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Speaker 1: at work. And then the boys were very rambunctious as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the boys were fighting, you know, all

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Speaker 3: the time, and you know, they were big on Wwe

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Speaker 3: keep in mind, CPS comes by once in a while,

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Speaker 3: and so we have the CPS reports, and on one

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Speaker 3: of those, the very last time they came to visit,

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Speaker 3: which was two months prior to Mariah's death. There's concern that,

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Speaker 3: you know, the place is too small, that they're you know,

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Speaker 3: small objects on the floor, that those stairs are very dangerous,

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Speaker 3: and the parents are not around, and basically it's up

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Speaker 3: to the teenage daughters to supervise them.

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Speaker 1: So among the many problems, they've got to move out

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Speaker 1: of this decrepit, totally unfit apartment with the rickety stairs,

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Speaker 1: and they found a first floor apartment with just two

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Speaker 1: or three steps leading up to the door, and that

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Speaker 1: move was going to be happening over the course of

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Speaker 1: February fifteenth, sixteenth, and seventeenth of two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 2: And so Melissa and Roberto were in the process of

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Speaker 2: trying to get the family moved, and so some of

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Speaker 2: the kids were with their mom, some of the kids

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Speaker 2: were with their dad. They're going back and forth in

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Speaker 2: a pickup truck taking loads. Mariah, being at that point

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Speaker 2: about two and a half years old, was in the

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Speaker 2: second story apartment with her mom and at least one

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Speaker 2: of the teenage daughters while they were trying to pack

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Speaker 2: things up. Several of the sort of younger age children

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Speaker 2: about eight nine years old were downstairs playing in the

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Speaker 2: backyard at some point, Melissa and the older daughter are

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Speaker 2: in one of the bedrooms. They're packing up clothes, what

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Speaker 2: have you, and one of the kids who's playing in

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Speaker 2: the backyard came upstairs. He went into the apartment to

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Speaker 2: get a drink of water, and there was a screen

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Speaker 2: door on that exteriors or that had a latch on it,

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Speaker 2: and when he went back downstairs to go play, he

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Speaker 2: left that door unlatched. And Mariah, who as we've already discussed,

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Speaker 2: was unstable on her feet because of her small deformity,

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Speaker 2: went to go follow her brother and she started down

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Speaker 2: the stairs and fell. One of her brothers saw her

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Speaker 2: as she sort of tumbled the last three or four

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Speaker 2: steps and hit her head on the pavement. Melissa, at

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Speaker 2: this point goes looking for her and finds Maria at

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Speaker 2: the bottom of the stairwell, and she checks her over

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Speaker 2: and doesn't see any serious injury. Doesn't look like she's

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Speaker 2: broken any bones or anything, and Mariah's not crying, she's

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Speaker 2: not acting like she's hurt, and so she takes Mariah

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Speaker 2: and they go back upstairs and they continue to pack

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Speaker 2: and complete the move to the new apartment. So by

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Speaker 2: time Saturday rolls around, Mariah has already had this closed

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Speaker 2: head injury from this fall down the stairs that is

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Speaker 2: not noticeable from her head or scalp, and her progression

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Speaker 2: of symptoms during that time period is exactly what you

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Speaker 2: would expect for a child of that age who's had

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Speaker 2: a serious close head injury and who has swelling on

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Speaker 2: the brain. It progresses from lethargy to not wanting to eat,

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Speaker 2: to ultimately some more serious symptoms where she has lockjaw,

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Speaker 2: and then she basically loses consciousness, although to her parents

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Speaker 2: she's still just sleeping. And at that point they're already

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Speaker 2: in this first floor apartment and Roberto Alvarez goes out

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Speaker 2: on air and he comes back and he goes to

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Speaker 2: check on Mariah and she is non responsive, and so

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Speaker 2: they do end up calling EMS, and EMS shows up

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Speaker 2: at this apartment and they see injuries bruises on Mariah

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Speaker 2: that they don't have any explanation for. And they hear

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Speaker 2: Melissa say, well, she fell down the stairs a few

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Speaker 2: days ago and we thought she was okay, but maybe

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Speaker 2: she wasn't. And the EMS sort of jumped to the

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Speaker 2: conclusion that the stairs Melissa is talking about are the

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Speaker 2: two or three steps from the ground floor apartment they

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Speaker 2: are now in, and they have no knowledge of this

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Speaker 2: full flight of stairs at the prior apartment that they

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Speaker 2: were living in just a few days earlier, And so

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Speaker 2: the EMS are incredulous, to say the least. They're, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, a kid can't get this injured falling down

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Speaker 2: two or three stairs. And so they try and resuscitate

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Speaker 2: Mariah unsuccessfully, which can leave its own kinds of bruises

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Speaker 2: on a body. But the MS take her to the hospital.

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Speaker 2: She does pass away, and Melissa is arrested and taken

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Speaker 2: to the police station.

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Speaker 1: So when she was pronounced dead Mariah, of course, I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about in the er. She was examined initially by

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Speaker 1: an er physician named Vargas, and he noted that she

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Speaker 1: had sustained significant physical abuse. He said that she had

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Speaker 1: several bruises that were in various stages of healing, and

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Speaker 1: that there were bite marks on her back, and that

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Speaker 1: one of her arms had been broken sometime two to

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Speaker 1: seven weeks prior, and that she was missing portions of

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Speaker 1: her hair. But Fargas said he found no outward sign

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Speaker 1: of head injury. So you can see how there's like

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Speaker 1: a straight line connecting this to the interrogation. The interrogator

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Speaker 1: was taking these findings from this doctor and then trying

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Speaker 1: to put those words into Melissa's mouth.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're not wrong. This information was all then

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Speaker 2: conveyed to the police, and the police went in to

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Speaker 2: the interrogation room with Melissa with already the preconceived notion

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Speaker 2: that this had to have been physical abuse, and it

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Speaker 2: had to have been physical abuse by Melissa in their view,

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Speaker 2: because she was Mariah's primary caretaker, because she was the mother,

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Speaker 2: and that's where her nightmare really sort of began as

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Speaker 2: far as her involvement with the criminal justice system in

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Speaker 2: this case, because she is interrogated at length, well into

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Speaker 2: the night and early wee hours of the morning by

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Speaker 2: multiple police officers who are aggressively denying her explanation that

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Speaker 2: Mariah had fallen down the stairs and her attempts to

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Speaker 2: explain any older injuries that Mariah might have as having

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Speaker 2: been the result of the rough play with her other

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Speaker 2: older kids, which is well documented by CPS and by

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Speaker 2: other just sort of slips and balls, because she has

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Speaker 2: a tendency to do that, and they just aggressively deny this,

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Speaker 2: deny this, deny this. They won't believe her, and finally,

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Speaker 2: in the wee hours of the morning, they get her

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Speaker 2: to say that she's responsible. And they never get her

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Speaker 2: to say really that she murdered Mariah, or that she

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Speaker 2: hit her on the head or anything. They just get

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Speaker 2: her basically to admit responsibility in the sort of overarching

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Speaker 2: way of a mother responsible for the circumstances that led

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Speaker 2: to her child's death, and so she is charged with

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Speaker 2: capital murder.

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Speaker 1: At that point, it's actually remarkable that she was able

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Speaker 1: to not really confess. I mean, they called it a confession,

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Speaker 1: but she didn't really confess. But eventually she was questioned

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Speaker 1: by a Texas ranger named Escalon. She confessed basically having

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Speaker 1: spanked Mariah several times, quote, day after day, and other

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Speaker 1: minor abuses which we now know didn't happen, like biting her.

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Speaker 1: So she was confessing to things that didn't even make

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Speaker 1: any sense at all because they weren't true. She was

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Speaker 1: just basically trying to say, I guess anything she could

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Speaker 1: to get out of this awful situation, and Target went

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Speaker 1: so far as to ask Willista to demonstrate the spanking

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Speaker 1: on a doll and was encouraged by the investigator to

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Speaker 1: spank the doll harder, right, I mean, and this is

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Speaker 1: on video, right, I mean the.

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Speaker 4: Way you actually did it just hard on her back.

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Speaker 6: We'll do it real hard, you will do it, but

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Speaker 6: the way you would do it, that's.

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Speaker 4: The way we do it. I mean I wouldn't found

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Speaker 4: on her. Mm hmm. It was it harder because I

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Speaker 4: just I don't do it's hard. Well, you're doing it

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Speaker 4: on yourself.

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Speaker 7: This is.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I wasn't pounding on her.

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Speaker 6: Yes, okay, and this is just what it was thanking.

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Speaker 8: My name is doctor John Pinkerman. I was the clinical

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Speaker 8: psychologist appointed to Miss Melissa Lucio's defense team. Melissa had

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Speaker 8: a history of certainly abuse, sexual abuse, and mistreatment going

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Speaker 8: back into adolescence and can continuing throughout her adulthood in

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Speaker 8: which she acquiesced to multiple individuals that abused her. She

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Speaker 8: became pretty compliant with individuals, didn't tend to break free

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Speaker 8: from them and often continue the relationships even though they

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Speaker 8: were really self defeating. For so, we felt this was

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Speaker 8: you know, and I felt it was really a problem

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Speaker 8: issue That helped explain some of the behavior that she

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Speaker 8: evidenced during the interrogation and how she came to provide

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Speaker 8: an acquiescence. I don't know if I want to call

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Speaker 8: it a confession, but an acquiescence to the investigators in

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Speaker 8: regard to her conduct. I was struck by how she

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Speaker 8: was explaining that she was spanking the children, or spanking Melissa,

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Speaker 8: and she it appeared like coach to show stronger force

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Speaker 8: in striking the table in the interview room. You know,

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Speaker 8: all of that contradicted every piece of information we had

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Speaker 8: that she provided physical discipline to the children. You know,

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Speaker 8: we never heard that from any of the children, and

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Speaker 8: certainly not to the extent of causing the alleged injury

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Speaker 8: and subsequent death.

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Speaker 2: It's important to note that he didn't just encourage her

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Speaker 2: to spank the dull harder. I mean, he encouraged you

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Speaker 2: to confess to things which she had no knowledge of

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Speaker 2: or had no part of. He told her there was

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Speaker 2: a bite on Mariah's back and got her to confess

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Speaker 2: to having bitten Mariah and at least my medical expert,

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Speaker 2: so that wasn't even a bite mark. It was a

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Speaker 2: parallel striation bruises from having fallen down the flight of

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Speaker 2: stairs on her shoulder blade. And so Ranger Escalon got

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Speaker 2: Melissa to admit to a type of abuse of Mariah

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Speaker 2: that did not exist, that had not happened at all.

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Speaker 2: And again, that's sort of a hallmark of a false confession,

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Speaker 2: is getting somebody to confess to something that there's no

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Speaker 2: evidence of.

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Speaker 1: At the end of it. And this really is such

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Speaker 1: a painful thing to think about. And I saw it,

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Speaker 1: of course in the film. But you know, she ultimately says,

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Speaker 1: I wish it was me that got hurt, and then

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Speaker 1: started crying.

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Speaker 6: How do you feel when you see these pictures?

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Speaker 4: No, she was maybe not hurt.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to add?

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Speaker 4: Okay, she listen. It's three fifteen am, and that will

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Speaker 4: end the interview.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss Rifkin, Porton and Garrison,

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Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had

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Speaker 1: an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono legal assistance

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Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable members of our society and in

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Speaker 1: support of the public interest, including extensive work in the

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Speaker 1: criminal justice area. So during the interrogation, Escalon asked Melissa

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Speaker 1: if they would find a fractured skull during the autopsy,

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Speaker 1: even though the er physician said there was no sign

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Speaker 1: of head injury, but Escalon had a theory right. So

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Speaker 1: on Monday February nineteenth, two thousand and seven, the chief

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologist of Cameron and Hidalgo County is a woman

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Speaker 1: named Norma je and Farley had conducted an autopsy and

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Speaker 1: ruled that, due to the presence of bloodpooled in the

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Speaker 1: crandial vault, that the cause of death was quote blunt

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Speaker 1: force had trauma. And then she went on during the

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Speaker 1: trial to say that a fall downstairs could not possibly

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Speaker 1: have been the cause. But that doesn't sound like science.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like conjecture, right. Oh.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 6: My name is doctor Thomas Young. I am a forensic pathologist.

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Speaker 6: Back in twenty ten, I was contacted by Margaret Schmucker,

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Speaker 6: who served as an appellate attorney on the case of

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Speaker 6: Texas versus Melissa Lucio. She wanted me to look at

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Speaker 6: the records and offer opinions that I could make to

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Speaker 6: a reasonable degree of medical certainty. Doctor Norma Jean Farley,

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Speaker 6: who is also a forensic pathologist, has made a mistake

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Speaker 6: very common in forensic pathologists. The idea that you can

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Speaker 6: look at an autopsy, that you can look at findings

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Speaker 6: on a body and be able to determine the very

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Speaker 6: very complex succession of events that happened in the past

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Speaker 6: to lead to that event. This is reasoning backwards. It

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Speaker 6: doesn't work. It is like trying to solve blank plus

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Speaker 6: blank equals four. If you think four is the consequence

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Speaker 6: of blank plus blank, looking at four doesn't give you

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Speaker 6: the answer to what goes in the blanks. There are

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Speaker 6: already numerous witnesses as to what happened to see the

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Speaker 6: succession of events that occurred that led to the outcome.

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Speaker 6: What doctor Farley did was she reasoned backwards, ignoring all

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Speaker 6: these witness accounts. She says that she knows for certain

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Speaker 6: what happened here to Mariah Alvarez. And this is arrogant

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Speaker 6: where you ignore what multiple witnesses say who were there

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Speaker 6: to actually see what happened. This is absurd. This is

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Speaker 6: just a flat out guess. But doctor Farley approaches it

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Speaker 6: as if she is certain about this.

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Speaker 3: How did she know that you cannot get a lot

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Speaker 3: high trauma from a full down the stairs. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it makes no sense.

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Speaker 2: You know, the science has developed at the time of

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Speaker 2: Maria's death in since that it is possible for a

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Speaker 2: child to fall down even a very sharp flight of

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Speaker 2: stairs and have a fatal head injury. All I can

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Speaker 2: say is Norma Farley was just wrong on the science

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Speaker 2: on that. You know, you put an expert on the

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Speaker 2: witness stand and the jury, you know, gives them an

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Speaker 2: awful lot of credence if they have appropriate credentials. And

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Speaker 2: of course Norma Jean Farley was the medical examiner for

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Speaker 2: the county, and so they give her testimony quite a

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Speaker 2: bit of credibility clearly in reaching the verdict that they did.

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Speaker 1: That sure sounds like the science is being adjusted to

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Speaker 1: fit the narrative when that is exactly the opposite of

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Speaker 1: how this all should function. Right. Well, now we get

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Speaker 1: to the trial, which the state argued that Melissa had

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Speaker 1: confessed to a pattern of abuse and inflicting the fatal

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Speaker 1: blows that killed Mariah. So the video clearly shows that

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Speaker 1: that is not the case. So they supported the theory

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Speaker 1: that Melissa was abusive with evidence that Mariah had bruises,

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Speaker 1: which we know she did, that were at various stages

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Speaker 1: of healing. But we also have covered why they were there,

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Speaker 1: and that had nothing to do with Melissa except the

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Speaker 1: fact that she was not in control of her own

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Speaker 1: life at that point, right, and Norma Jean Farley, again

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Speaker 1: as a chief forensic pathologist, testified that Mariah's death was

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Speaker 1: the result of blood force head trauma. She continued that

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Speaker 1: it must have occurred within twenty four hours of death,

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Speaker 1: and that it would have been immediately apparent that Mariah

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Speaker 1: was in distress and in need of medical attention. Now,

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Speaker 1: Farley testified that Mariah suffered multiple contusions to her head area,

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Speaker 1: but somehow she was magically able to rule out that

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Speaker 1: the strikes to the head were not the result of

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Speaker 1: tumbling down the stairs. Now, I don't think she witnessed

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Speaker 1: the tumbling down the stairs. So again, how in the

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Speaker 1: world would she know that, Well, she wouldn't, but this

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Speaker 1: is probably what she thought that the authorities wanted to hear. So,

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Speaker 1: just so we're clear, Melissa's defense did put on the

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Speaker 1: stand an expert named doctor Curry.

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Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, they did. But when they qualified doctor Curry

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Speaker 2: as an expert, since he was a pediatric neurologist, he

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Speaker 2: was not a forensic scientist, and so they did not

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Speaker 2: allow him to testify it regarding the source of any

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Speaker 2: of her other injuries anywhere below the neck. And so

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Speaker 2: because the defense didn't hire a better expert or more

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Speaker 2: appropriate expert. They were not able to counter the state's

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Speaker 2: case that all of these prior injuries were from being

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Speaker 2: beaten repeatedly over a period of weeks or months. But

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Speaker 2: he did contradict Norma Jean Farley's testimony in the timing

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Speaker 2: of the head injury that caused her death. Norma Jean

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Speaker 2: Farley had said that the injury had to have occurred

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Speaker 2: approximately twenty four hours prior to her death. Doctor Curry,

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Speaker 2: who was a pediatric neurologist, testified that it could have

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Speaker 2: occurred earlier than that, you know, anywhere from forty eight

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Speaker 2: to seventy two hours before she died. And so that

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Speaker 2: becomes important when you look at the timeline of events

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Speaker 2: of the family moving and everybody being together, you know,

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Speaker 2: either at the old place, the new place, or in

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Speaker 2: transit about whether or not Melissa was ever alone with Mariah.

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Speaker 3: Melissa was never alone with Mariah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when you go back through all of the evidence

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Speaker 2: that the state had collected, whether they used it or

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Speaker 2: not at trial, you find that Melissa was never alone

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Speaker 2: with the kids at all. Whether you look at the

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Speaker 2: timeline suggested by doctor Farley or you look at the

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Speaker 2: timeline suggested by doctor Curry, she was always with family members.

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Speaker 2: They were always together as a family, either you know,

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Speaker 2: a few kids or more everybody during that whole seventy

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Speaker 2: two hour period. And not one of those kids has

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Speaker 2: ever said that during that time period that Melissa's ever

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Speaker 2: hurt Mariah, ever touched her in any kind of aggressive way.

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Speaker 1: How could you possibly be alone in a two room

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Speaker 1: or so apartment with nine kids, is It's preposterous.

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Speaker 2: So they did not present the evidence that she was

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Speaker 2: never alone within that twenty four to seventy two hours

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Speaker 2: prior to Mariah's death, and that the kids were never

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Speaker 2: allowed to testify that they'd never seen their mom hit

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Speaker 2: Mariah during that period of time, and she was never

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Speaker 2: alone with Maria during that period of time. And then

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Speaker 2: there's the issue with doctor Pinkerman. The defense did try

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Speaker 2: to put doctor Pinkerman on to talk about why my

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Speaker 2: Melissa might have made this so called confession of being responsible,

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Speaker 2: when in fact she was not, And the court refused

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Speaker 2: to allow doctor Pinkerman to testify.

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Speaker 3: To that.

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Speaker 8: Of my colleague, Normal Villanueva was a social worker, and

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Speaker 8: she and I developed different viewpoints about in the case.

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Speaker 8: As we went along in our meetings with the defense team,

435
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 8: we raised questions in our meetings, and I can remember

436
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 8: at least on one occasion going to the second chair

437
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 8: council just sort of asking, you know, is it possible

438
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 8: that we could take a look at these issues and concerns.

439
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 8: That individual said that he thought it might be a

440
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 8: good idea, but he deferred to the lead attorney, mister Gilman.

441
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 8: I was not asked to provide any testimony during the

442
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 8: Gilt innocence phase of the trial, but in the sentencing phase,

443
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 8: I felt my testimony was abbreviated and truncated in a

444
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 8: way because there was a lot of background information that

445
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 8: I was prepared to offer to the court that would,

446
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 8: I hope, mitigate the ultimate sentence. It seemed that there

447
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 8: was not much interest in having that information, as I understand,

448
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 8: of course, the appeal was based on specifically on my

449
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 8: opportunity or lack of opportunity to present that kind of viewpoint.

450
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 3: Melissa didn't have anybody on her behalf. Her kids weren't

451
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 3: allowed to testify, nobody was allowed to testify.

452
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: She was alone in her defense because no one was

453
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: really brought in to testify even though her trial attorneys

454
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: knew that the older girls had admitted to causing Mariah's injuries,

455
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: They knew that the younger kids had testified to seeing

456
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: Mariah fall down the stairs, and they knew, or should

457
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 2: have known, if they put sort of two and two

458
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 2: together of all the various pieces of evidence that were

459
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: available to them, that Melissa was never alone with Mariah

460
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: at the time, But they never put any of that

461
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: evidence on.

462
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: With what the jury was presented with. The results were

463
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: as predictable as they were tragic and wrong. She was

464
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: convicted and sentenced to death.

465
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 5: When the jury came back and said that they found

466
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 5: me guilty, even though I did hear the word guilty,

467
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 5: I didn't want to step it. The best way to

468
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 5: describe it is I felt like I was in a

469
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 5: dream and then I would wake up and I would

470
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 5: be at home with my kids.

471
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 6: You know.

472
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 5: Everybody was screaming and crying, and they let me out

473
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 5: from the courtroom. They took me back to my cell

474
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 5: and I remember I slept. I just tried to block

475
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 5: out everything that had happened in that courtroom. I figured

476
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 5: my children would be able to testify, that they would

477
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 5: be able to get on that stand, and I know

478
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 5: that they would come out and say the truth. And

479
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 5: mister Gilman, he didn't want to. He told me no

480
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 5: because he didn't know what the p secutors had in

481
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 5: store for them, and he didn't want them to try

482
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 5: to manipulate them. And he felt that it wasn't there

483
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 5: wasn't a need for my children to be understand.

484
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: You know, someone listening to this cold would probably come

485
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: away with the impression that the defense attorney was almost

486
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: like an adjunct prosecutor. And as crazy as that sounds,

487
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: it's not that crazy when you think about the fact

488
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: that he went to work for the prosecutor immediately after

489
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: the trial, and why would the prosecutor's office hire him

490
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: at a higher salary than the season prosecutors that were

491
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: already working there immediately after having watched him do as

492
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: terrible of a job as an attorney can possibly do

493
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: for their client. It's just stinks so bad.

494
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 7: It does stink.

495
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: But let me make some clarifying points about what really happened.

496
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: Right before Mariah dies, there was another murder case in

497
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: the Brownsville area and the defendant was a guy by

498
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: the name of Amat Livingston and mister Livingston ends up

499
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: I believe, pleading guilty to murder, but with the agreement

500
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: of the District attorney's office Armanda Violobos, he is released

501
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 2: in order to go put his affairs in order before

502
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 2: he has to go to prison. When he's released, he

503
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: disappears into the wind. He's found more than a decade later,

504
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: hiding out in India.

505
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 3: But in any event, at the.

506
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: Time he's gone missing in action. And the newspapers picked

507
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: this up and they're like, you know, why did the

508
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: District Attorney's office agree with this? You know what's going

509
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: on here? This was all very bad press for mister Volobos,

510
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: who was getting ready to run for reelection of the

511
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 2: District Attorney of Cameron County. He needed a win, and

512
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: he needed a win big. And right after all this

513
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: happened is when Mariah died. And Melissa's the perfect target.

514
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: She's poor, she's Hispanic. There's a dead baby with a

515
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: lot of bruises. This is the perfect vehicle for mister

516
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 2: vo Lobos to go, I'm hard on crime, re elect

517
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: me in a district attorney's office. So obviously Melissa gets

518
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 2: convicted since to death, mister vo Lobos gets re elected

519
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: and within a fairly reasonable time after mister Vio Lobos

520
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: is reelected, that's when Pete Gilman goes to work for

521
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: the district Attorney's office.

522
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: Un fucking believable. Please continue now.

523
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: I did an open records request to find out about

524
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: the hiring process for mister Gilman, and what I found

525
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: out was he was supposedly interviewed on an unknown or

526
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: unstated date by mister vo Lobos himself, and was hired

527
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: and had accepted the job before he'd even submitted a

528
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: CV or a resume to the human resources department. He

529
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: was hired first and then he submitted those papers, so

530
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 2: that was kind of shady. And then you find out

531
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: that he gets a pretty good salary. District attorneys don't

532
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: usually get paid the way attorneys in private practice do.

533
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 2: It's usually a starter salary, a stepping stone to something bigger.

534
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: He gets hired in at a pretty significant rate, and

535
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,959
Speaker 2: then his wife is also hired at the courthouse and

536
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 2: between the two of them are bringing down a six

537
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: figure salary.

538
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: Wow. You know, just when you think you've heard everything,

539
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: and I always think every week I said, I think

540
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: I've heard it all, and then there's this. I mean,

541
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: Where where do these people come from? How do they

542
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: sleep at night? I mean, just to recap, so he's

543
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: accepted the job. We don't know exactly what it could

544
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: have been before the trial. For all we know, right,

545
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: he could have actually been working for the prosecution while

546
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: supposedly defending Melissa. And let's just look at what he

547
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: did and did not do during the trial. This Gilman

548
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: character failed to call as witnesses any of Melissa's children

549
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: who had seen Mariah file down the stairs. Okay, that

550
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: alone is fucking shocking. Then there was the social worker,

551
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: right Norma Villanueva, to whom Melissa's daughter Alexandra bravely had

552
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: said that she was the reason Mariah fell down the stairs.

553
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: The social worker was instructed by Gilman to not alert

554
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: anyone to this statement that sounds like the work of

555
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: an adjunct prosecutor. She was not, of course, called to testify.

556
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 1: That testimony could have been extremely valuable. There was also

557
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: a host of witnesses that were interviewed and or put

558
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: on the stand by the state that together never placed

559
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: Melissa alone with Mariah. Yet to that that no witness

560
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: ever saw Melissa beat Mariah at any time, and Melissa

561
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: and Riah whenever alone, we know that Farley's theory. A

562
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: first year law student could have connected these dots and

563
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: shown that Farley's theory was nonsense. But none of that

564
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: was ever done for the jury. And then just process

565
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: this with me for a second.

566
00:34:59,360 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 2: Right.

567
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: So there's a horrible interview with Yilman after he had

568
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: already joined the prosecutor's office formally, instead of only you

569
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: know well anyway, but he said and I quote, she

570
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: was not a good mother. Did she kill her child?

571
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: I don't know? End quote.

572
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: Well, I can tell you something. When I interviewed Peter Gilman,

573
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: because that's in the film, you would have thought that

574
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 3: Melissa was his worst enemy. He had nothing nice to

575
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 3: say about her. He went on and on. It was

576
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 3: quite an extraordinary And.

577
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 7: I said to him, I kept asking him. I was like,

578
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,720
Speaker 7: what was your strategy? What was your strategy at Trout?

579
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 7: And he couldn't answer. I think I asked him that

580
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 7: question maybe seven times. What was your strategy? I mean,

581
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 7: did you believe that it was an accident? Did you believe?

582
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 7: He couldn't answer he had no strategy.

583
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: He had a strategy. It wasn't a defense strategy, but

584
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: he had a strategy and to get himself a better job. So,

585
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: in case you haven't heard enough yet, and in case

586
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: you were looking for an even more terrible villain in

587
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: this story, if such a thing as possible, boy, do

588
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: we have one for you now. The elected district attorney,

589
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: a gentleman named Armando via Lobos, and mister via Lobos

590
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: was at the time of this all that stuff taking place.

591
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: He himself was at the center of an FBI investigation,

592
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: and for good reason. There was a public scandal that

593
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 1: emerged because he was using his office to enrich and

594
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: empower himself through several different schemes, one of which was

595
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: bribery in exchange for favorable outcomes at trial.

596
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 3: He was involved with cartels. He would bring lawyers and

597
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 3: judges to Las Vegas and pretend to lose in poker

598
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 3: games so you know, he could bribe them. It goes

599
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 3: on and on. Basically, his agenda was to take money from,

600
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 3: you know, people who could pay him, and then four

601
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 3: people like Melissa he would use to be reelected. The

602
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: moment he heard about Melissa's case, he was at the

603
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 3: police station. I mean, while Melissa's being interrogated, I mean,

604
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: he's already there. He just completely used her case. You know,

605
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 3: Margaret will tell you how very rare for DA's to

606
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 3: actually get personally involved, you know, in cases. I mean,

607
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 3: he even did the ending statement at her trial.

608
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: He not only did the ending statement, but he actually

609
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: examined one of the state's witnesses, and he had the

610
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: state's witness get up off the witness stand and pretend

611
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 2: to shake a child like shaken baby syndrome, which has

612
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: questionable scientific background, especially for a child of Mariah's age.

613
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: If you talk to the scientists, they will tell you

614
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 2: that a child is large as Mariah. If you'd shaken

615
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 2: her heart enough to cause the brain to sort of

616
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 2: shake back and forth inside the skull and be damaged,

617
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: you have to have broken her neck. But he nevertheless

618
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: has this witness get up off the witness stand and

619
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 2: stand in front of the jury and pretend to violently

620
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: shake a child as a demonstration. You know, I don't

621
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: know how intensely that played into the jury's verdict, but

622
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: I'm sure it wasn't ignored.

623
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: And then he took part in this sentencing phase to

624
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: make sure that she got death.

625
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 3: I mean, and he had to prove to the jury

626
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 3: future dangerousness. Right, and Melissa had never been arrested before.

627
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 3: And Melissa had no prior history of violence whatsoever. So

628
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, he needs to prove to the

629
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 3: jury that you know, she is so violent that she

630
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 3: actually might be a danger to prisoners, and that's why

631
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: she needs to be on death throw. Right, Let's put

632
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 3: it this way. I mean, if Melissa Lucio is the

633
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 3: type of person that is actually the most dangerous person

634
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 3: in America, that she would end up on death row.

635
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, we were in trouble.

636
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: She wasn't even the most dangerous person in the courtroom.

637
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: That DA was the most dangerous person in the courtroom.

638
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: He was running a continuing criminal enterprise. He's doing backroom

639
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: deals with cartels, He's bribing judges and lawyers. He's selling verdicts,

640
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 1: letting murderers, serial murderers run free. I mean, this guy,

641
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 1: he'd be a cartoon villain, except there's nothing funny about

642
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: any of it. So we know how rare it is

643
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 1: for prosecutors to be prosecuted. But this one the FBI

644
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: took very seriously and they got involved to say the least. Right,

645
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: how did it end up?

646
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:35,760
Speaker 7: Well?

647
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 3: I interviewed Michael Wynn, who was the lead prosecutor against

648
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 3: Armando Villa Lobos, and of course I never had any

649
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 3: contact with the ABI, but he told me that they

650
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 3: were trying to get him because he was running for

651
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 3: Congress and they wanted to make sure that that did

652
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 3: not happen. So they were trying to get him, and

653
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 3: they had so much on him.

654
00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: You know.

655
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 2: The feedback that I got on that line was there

656
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: was so much on mister Vio Lobos that they decided

657
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: to stick to sort of their slam dunk case for

658
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 2: conviction because they just needed him gone. And so Melissa's stuff,

659
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 2: it came out a little bit in the Fiolobo's trial.

660
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 2: The bit about at Livingstone and all of that did

661
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 2: come out at trial, and Melissa's involvement and that came

662
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: out in trial, but it was very, very limited. It

663
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 2: wasn't the focus of their energies at mister Lobo's ateral

664
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: criminal trup.

665
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 3: You know, I find that extraordinary as an outsider, that

666
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 3: you know, you have, you know, a quarter pointed attorney

667
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 3: who now works at the DA's office who basically did

668
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 3: not defend Melissa at all, and then you have a

669
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 3: DA who got thirteen years of federal prison. But you

670
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 3: know that has nothing to do with Melissa's case, and

671
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 3: you know her case should not be re examined. It's infuriating.

672
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: No, You're absolutely right. Every single case that this guy

673
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: had anything to do with needs to be immediately reopened

674
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: and thoroughly re examined. And I'm not saying, to be

675
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: clear that everybody that he prosecuted is innocent, but a

676
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: lot of them probably are. And in any case, it's

677
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: abundantly clear that almost none of them could have possibly

678
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: gotten a fair trial. And Melissa absolutely did not get

679
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: what she is constitutionally guaranteed, which is a fair trial.

680
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: And what I find particularly shocking is that Gilman hasn't

681
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: even been disbarred. I mean, this case is a literal

682
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: poster child for ineffective assistance of counsel. But Melissa remains

683
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: a death row to this very day, and the State

684
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: of Texas is desperately continuing to try to execute her.

685
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 1: So her direct appeal was denied, you filed her state

686
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: habeas and then it moved on to federal habeas and

687
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: ended up in the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, which

688
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: is the conservative federal court that sits on top of

689
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: Texas among other states.

690
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: And it's at that point that I ended up kind

691
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 2: of being dropped out of the case. But what ended

692
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: up happening there was ultimately the Fifth Circuit, a panel

693
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 2: of the Fifth Circuit, three judges who initially heard the case,

694
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: ordered that Melissa should get a new trial. The state

695
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: was not happy with that outcome. They asked for what's

696
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: called a rehearing en banc, which is a rehearing in

697
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 2: front of all of the justices of the Fifth Circuit

698
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 2: Court of Appeals. The request for on bank rehearing was granted,

699
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: and there was another argument, and just recently the Fifth

700
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: Circuit issued an opinion which was deeply divided, that denied

701
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 2: Melissa the right to a new trial and again affirmed

702
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: what happened in the state court. So from here, she

703
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: has basically ninety days from that date to file a

704
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 2: request for her case to be heard of the United

705
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 2: States Supreme Court, and.

706
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 3: They take what one percent of cases.

707
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: Probably probably less than one percent of the cases. So

708
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 2: you know, her odds, you know, of having her case

709
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 2: taken are not good. And you know, once it's in

710
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, it can take a while. But if

711
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 2: they a nicer it's all over. There are some additional

712
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 2: post conviction procedural maneuvers which may take place. Since I'm

713
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: no longer her attorney, I don't know what they're going

714
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: to be doing, but from my perspective, because the state

715
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: used what I would consider to be junk science, the

716
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: shaken baby testimony, the fall down the stairs can't cause

717
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: the head injury testimony, that sort of thing, that potentially

718
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 2: her new council could go back into the courts on

719
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 2: what's called a junk science writ on her behalf, and

720
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 2: they may also be able to file a civil rights

721
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: action on her behalf, maybe going back to some of

722
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: the issues with mister vo Lobos, that the way that

723
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: her case was even presented and ended up in the

724
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 2: court in the first place was a result of a

725
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: violation of her civil rights.

726
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 1: I asked you to please join me in supporting Melissa.

727
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: The one simple step you can take is go to

728
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: actionnetwork dot org that's a network dot org to sign

729
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 1: a petition, and there will be more links in our

730
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: bio for other constructive steps you can take. Your voice matters,

731
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,240
Speaker 1: so please spread the word, get involved. Let's save Melissa

732
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,280
Speaker 1: before it's too late and Sabrina, I watched your movie,

733
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: and in no small part that's why we're here, because

734
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: your movie is such a powerful piece of documentary filmmaking

735
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: and tells his story so hauntingly. How can people access

736
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 1: the film, Well.

737
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 3: The film is called The State of Texas Versus Melissa

738
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 3: being streamed right now. It's on Hulu.

739
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: And now we turn to the part of our show

740
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: that always seems to be the best. Posing arguments and

741
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: how this works is very simple. First of all, I

742
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: want to thank are two esteemed guests for just coming

743
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: and sharing your passion and your expertise. Of course I'm

744
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: talking about Sabrina and Tassel and Margaret Schmucker. Thank you

745
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: both again for being here.

746
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 3: Thank you for having us.

747
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 7: Thank you Jason so much.

748
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: Closing arguments works like this, I turn off my microphone,

749
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: kick back in my chair and just listen to whatever

750
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: you have to say, whatever you feel there is left

751
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: to say after this extraordinary conversation. So we'll start off

752
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 1: with Margaret, then Sabrina, and then Melissa.

753
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 2: I've talked about other lawyers in this I feel like

754
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: I need to make it clear that you know, there's

755
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 2: nothing I've said today that isn't readily available as a

756
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 2: matter of court record. It's been in the state courts,

757
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 2: it's been in the federal courts. If you've got the energy,

758
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: you can go look it up. But you know, the

759
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 2: key take home points. You know that there is and was,

760
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 2: you know, some level of corruption involved in this case.

761
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: And that's of concern that there is evidence that you know,

762
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: Melissa could not have caused more injuries in the timeframe

763
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: that she was said to have caught them in, that

764
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 2: she's never been violent with her kids. There is an

765
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 2: absolute difference between physical abuse, which is a positive action,

766
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: and neglect, which is an absence of an action, and

767
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 2: her entire history is neglect because she just had too

768
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 2: many kids. And we have to always also be concerned

769
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: about the fact that are we looking at all this

770
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 2: evidence through the lens of sort of white privilege, and

771
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 2: we have to take a step back and say, you

772
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 2: can't do that. You have to look at it from

773
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 2: her perspective and what was going on in her life

774
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: and why she was acting the way she was. And

775
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 2: of course for that we had doctor Pinkerman. And as

776
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: to the physical stuff, obviously we have doctor Young who

777
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 2: has been very helpful in this case. I would really

778
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 2: hope that at some point Melissa's case will get back

779
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: into court and that she will be fully exonerated and

780
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 2: will be set free to be with her children.

781
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 3: I want to say her name. Her name is Melissa Lucio,

782
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 3: and she's been away from her children for thirteen years.

783
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 3: She hasn't seen most of her kids in that length

784
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 3: of time, and she's never seen her mother again. She's

785
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 3: never seen her brothers and sisters. I mean, she's been

786
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 3: all alone on death row, twenty four hours a day,

787
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 3: waiting for her fate. And she's someone who didn't stand,

788
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 3: you know, a chance from the first day. And I

789
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 3: hope and pray that, you know, people will get interested

790
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 3: in her case and start tweeting about her and talking

791
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 3: about her and raise this horrible story. You know, together we'll,

792
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 3: you know, find a way to get her out of there.

793
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 1: And now we'll hear from Melissa.

794
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 5: My name is Melissa Elizabeth Lucio. I'm forty eight years old.

795
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 5: I had fourteen children. It's been very hard to wake

796
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 5: up each morning and not and I hear them calling

797
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 5: out for me. The State of Texas wants to kill me.

798
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 4: Every day.

799
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 5: I ask God why I often think about my daughter Mariah.

800
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 5: I've had a lot of dreams about her. I've dreamed

801
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:28,240
Speaker 5: that her and I are out there and that she's

802
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 5: running around in her little dress, and she's wanted me

803
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 5: to comb her hair, brush her hair, put Baretts on

804
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 5: her hair, paint her nails, paint her toenails, and put

805
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 5: some lipstick on her lips. It's hard to have dreams

806
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 5: about your children because when you wake up and then

807
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 5: you see where you're at, you wish that it wouldn't

808
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 5: happen a dream, that it would have been reality.

809
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 4: There are days that.

810
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 5: That I feel that I could just leave this place

811
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 5: and be reunited with Mariah and just tell her I'm

812
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 5: sorry that I wasn't there to protect her and I

813
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,479
Speaker 5: failed her. I failed her in any ways.

814
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

815
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the

816
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help.

817
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburn,

818
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always,

819
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be

820
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and

821
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,720
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction. Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason

822
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and

823
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:06,919
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one