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Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, are you welcome to

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb

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Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick. And no, you're beating around the bush.

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Speaker 1: It looks like cannibalism is on the roster for today.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And I just want to remind everybody that

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Speaker 1: we're not going to be talking about a hannibal lecter.

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Speaker 1: This is not a show about like modern cannibalism among humans.

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Speaker 1: This is not the Dahmer cast exactly. This is mostly

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Speaker 1: going to deal with animals, and towards the end of

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Speaker 1: the episode, we are going to discuss some some of

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Speaker 1: the questions surrounding cannibalism among ancient humans. But again, if

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Speaker 1: it don't worry, We're not going to be talking about

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Speaker 1: like like true crime cannibalism here. That's your thing. There's

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Speaker 1: plenty of that out there, you know where to find it,

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Speaker 1: that's right. So we we've frequently discussed predation on the show,

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Speaker 1: and we've of course discussed cannibalism as well. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've talked about how it factors into any given organism, organisms, life,

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Speaker 1: whether it's predator or prey, as well as its role

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Speaker 1: in human evolution. And I think we've also tried. I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously it can be fun to talk about, especially grizzly

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Speaker 1: predatory practices in the wild, especially among like invertebrates, But

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Speaker 1: I feel like we tried to do our best to

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Speaker 1: dispel predator hatred, right. We We did a whole episode

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Speaker 1: a while back about why predators are so beneficial for

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Speaker 1: ecology and even for for human civilization. Absolutely, and you

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Speaker 1: can't look at predators just as the villain of any

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Speaker 1: given peace, no matter how dramatic the music and a

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Speaker 1: given nature documentary might be. That's something I found watching

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Speaker 1: just so many nature documentaries with my son, is that

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Speaker 1: earlier on he would get a little wigged out by

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Speaker 1: scenes of predation or pending predation because they just have

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Speaker 1: such overly dramatic music and they're really playing into the

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Speaker 1: idea that the predator is the villain. Yeah, but I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to say that he is. He's really gotten

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Speaker 1: out of that. It's very rare now that at age

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Speaker 1: he just turned seven. Uh, it's very rare that he'll

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Speaker 1: be wigged out by predation scene. In fact, there will

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Speaker 1: be scenes where say, like some young lions or ripping

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Speaker 1: apart of water buffalo or something, and I'll be a

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Speaker 1: little wigged out. I'm like, this is getting kind of bloody,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, you sure you wanna finish watching this scene.

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Speaker 1: He's like, oh, yeah, it's cool that they're hungry. No, no,

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Speaker 1: he's not. He's not bloodthirsty for it. But he he

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Speaker 1: has he's already has his appreciation that. Yeah, those those

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Speaker 1: animals are hungry. They need to eat. This is how

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Speaker 1: they eat. This is part of the natural order of things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's really cool. I mean it's it's a hard thing

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Speaker 1: to appreciate because of course, within a human context, if

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Speaker 1: you see like one human chasing after another human trying

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Speaker 1: to hurt him, we know that's morally bad. That's something

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Speaker 1: to to oppose. When you see a predator chasing prey, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the prey is fighting for its life, but the predators

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Speaker 1: also fighting for its life. It's just obeying its instinct.

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Speaker 1: That's part of what it does. And if if the

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Speaker 1: predator doesn't get some prey, it too will die. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a wrong move on the on the part of a

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Speaker 1: predator giving chase could lead to its death as well.

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Speaker 1: Via via starvation, if it were to say, in draw leg.

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Speaker 1: But of course, one of the strangest forms of predation

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Speaker 1: and one that often seems to even when you see

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Speaker 1: it among animals, even when you know better. One that

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Speaker 1: I think still strikes many people as a kind of

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Speaker 1: taboo or a kind of violation is when predation is

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Speaker 1: turned inward on one's own kind, when it turns into cannibalism. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we've and we've again we've discussed cannibalism on the

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Speaker 1: show before, especially sexual cannibalism, I think more recently, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we did a whole episode on sexual cannibalism, especially as

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Speaker 1: it appears like among arachnids, in which there are some

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Speaker 1: fascinating behaviors. It's far more complex and interesting than just

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Speaker 1: like well, male spider mates with a female spider and

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Speaker 1: then the female eats the male. They're all kinds of

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Speaker 1: economic energy dynamics going on different behavioral adaptations to that,

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Speaker 1: to that kind of world. It's a really truly complex

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Speaker 1: and interesting subject. Yeah, And I think economics is the

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Speaker 1: way I always try and and and focus on it,

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Speaker 1: you know, just thinking of just the the economy of uh,

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Speaker 1: turning sunlight into flesh, which is basically what happens with

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Speaker 1: the food chain. And so you're going to reach a

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Speaker 1: point where even another member of your own species is energy.

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Speaker 1: And what are you to do if you are, say

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Speaker 1: a scorpion or something. I mean, especially with the with

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Speaker 1: the scorpion, which is you know, UM tends to be

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Speaker 1: a solitary organism. Uh, you know you're not going to

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Speaker 1: let that energy just go to waste because you have

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Speaker 1: some sort of you know, heightened scorpion morality or you know,

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Speaker 1: our ethical system in play. No, you're gonna you're gonna

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Speaker 1: show down on some cannibal meat. Well, no, again, animals

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Speaker 1: are not humans. We with human brains can appreciate reasons

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Speaker 1: that one should not eat one's own kind. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: if in the rest of the animal animal world cannibalism

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Speaker 1: is widespread. So I today's episode, you know a lot

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Speaker 1: of what we're gonna deal with this this idea of

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Speaker 1: almost cannibals, which is something I started thinking about while

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Speaker 1: I was vacationing in Belize. I was out there with

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Speaker 1: the family, snorkeling, and I was slipping through a guide

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Speaker 1: book for Caribbean organisms um aquatic organisms, and I came

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Speaker 1: across a couple of entries for the head shield slug. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is kind of like a it looks sort of

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Speaker 1: like a hammerhead slug. Yeah, it looks like a hammer

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Speaker 1: head sea slug. They're also known as bubble snails um

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Speaker 1: and and these are members of the clade um Cephalospidia,

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Speaker 1: and the these names head shield slugs bubble snails. The

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Speaker 1: name refers to their common head shield, as is a

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Speaker 1: broad head that's used for burrowing in the sand and

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Speaker 1: it helps to keep the sand out of their mantle cavities.

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Speaker 1: And most have have shells, but some species have have

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Speaker 1: to have a reduced shell and some have what's known

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Speaker 1: as a like a bubble shell. Now I never got

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Speaker 1: to actually see one while snorkeling, but the two entries

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Speaker 1: in the book, I got my my mind working because

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Speaker 1: there was leech head shield slug, which was this beautiful

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Speaker 1: dark blue indigo creature with bright yellow stripes. This is

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Speaker 1: one of the counterintuitive things about nature, is that clearly

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Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful types of animal in the

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Speaker 1: entire world or sea slugs. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, uh. But

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Speaker 1: then there was another one. There was the mysterious head

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Speaker 1: shield slug. That's what it's called that was in in

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Speaker 1: this in this book, and this may have been an

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Speaker 1: older book. There may be updated names for some of

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Speaker 1: these now, but this one looked had the color of

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Speaker 1: just rotting vegetation swearing camo. And as for their diets,

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Speaker 1: the book listed that the mysterious head shield slug feeds

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Speaker 1: on other sea slugs, especially the the lettuce sea slug. Okay,

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Speaker 1: fair enough, right, there are a lot of sea slugs

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Speaker 1: out there, and there's a lot of competition in aquatic environments. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're dealing with a very large subclass of

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Speaker 1: the gastropod of family here. But the leech head shield

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Speaker 1: slug its diet was listed as other head shields, So

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Speaker 1: it's getting even closer to home, right, Yeah, so it's

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Speaker 1: not cannibalism. You know, they're not the same species. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they're in the same family, but I suppose, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's the name that that gives me pause. The

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Speaker 1: fact that they're both classified as headshield slugs. Well, that

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Speaker 1: is a kind of interesting question to say, Like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we know cannibalism happens pretty often in the wild, and

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Speaker 1: we'll discuss the conditions and just a minute here, there

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Speaker 1: are some limitations that are imposed by genetics, by the

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Speaker 1: energy economy, and by epidemiology on on how far you

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Speaker 1: can go with practicing cannibalism as a lifestyle as an animal.

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Speaker 1: Uh So they these limitations are in place. Some of

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Speaker 1: those limitations might not be in place if you're preying

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Speaker 1: on something that's a lot like you, but is not

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Speaker 1: exactly you. Right, So, yeah, that's something we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about here. You know, what are some examples of

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Speaker 1: um near cannibalism, Like what are some of the more

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Speaker 1: closely related prey predator relationships out there in the animal world?

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Speaker 1: And then what does that say about us? What does

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Speaker 1: that say about the way that humans think about cannibalism?

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Speaker 1: In a weird way, this episode topic even got me

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Speaker 1: thinking about some of the strange economic dynamics of digital media.

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Speaker 1: I promise that's not as boring as it sounds. We'll

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Speaker 1: come back to that later. I don't know, digital media cannibalism.

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Speaker 1: That sounds pretty exciting and probably just like spot on

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Speaker 1: and just a fact of life. So let's refresh a

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Speaker 1: little bit about cannibalism. So, to eat one's own species

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Speaker 1: is to commit an act of cannibalism. Now, sometimes especially

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Speaker 1: we'll get into a few cases later on. Sometimes this

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Speaker 1: word we the word cannibalism is used for things that

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Speaker 1: are not quite cannibalism. But that's where we get into

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Speaker 1: that gray area of near cannibalism. Yeah, and it's sometimes

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Speaker 1: said with the derogatory context, but I mean again, it's

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Speaker 1: something that like, obviously, if you kill and eat your

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Speaker 1: next door neighbor, that's a bad thing. But animals this

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Speaker 1: is just sometimes an adaptation that animals have, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And there are many different varieties and classifications we've discussed.

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Speaker 1: Somebody's done the show before. Sexual anibalism for instance, which

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Speaker 1: like you said, can be can be, you know, rather complex.

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Speaker 1: It's not just a situation of well I made it

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Speaker 1: with him, I guess now I'll consume his flesh. A

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Speaker 1: lot of times it depends on, for example, what the

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Speaker 1: male brings to the table in the sexual encounter. There

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Speaker 1: are some species of spider where if a male shows

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Speaker 1: up with a food gift for the female, for example,

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Speaker 1: he can he can be more likely to avoid being

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Speaker 1: cannibalized after mating, whereas if he shows up and just

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Speaker 1: wants to mate and doesn't bring her anything to snack on.

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Speaker 1: He's more likely to be cannibalized. And this sort of

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Speaker 1: makes sense, right, like or is he is he contributing

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Speaker 1: additional food resources to the development of the offspring? Right?

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Speaker 1: And then there are other examples like matrophagi where babies uh,

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Speaker 1: where the offspring consume the mother um. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: they're examples where um of a mother organism will consume

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Speaker 1: the young. And a lot of these cases of cannibalism

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Speaker 1: in the while, they're they're going to be influenced by uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, economic um uh resource uh deprivation issues like

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Speaker 1: are those offspring going to survive? Is something threatening them?

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Speaker 1: Should then the energy of those uh of the offering

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Speaker 1: be uh brought back into the host or into the

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Speaker 1: mother organism. Yeah, Now, I detect among the literature in

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Speaker 1: in zoology and behavioral ecology and all that that there

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Speaker 1: there's been a shift in consciousness about cannibalism over the

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Speaker 1: previous decades where I think it used to be more

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Speaker 1: common for scientists to believe that cannibalism would was something

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Speaker 1: animals would only do under extreme scenarios, like if they

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Speaker 1: were in a starvation scenario, you know, just like the

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Speaker 1: absolute limits of survival, and that has increasingly it's increasingly

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Speaker 1: become clear that that's not the case. Though animals don't,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're not usually going to practice cannibalism as

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Speaker 1: some kind of primary mode of living. There are actually

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Speaker 1: a pretty wide range of scenarios in which cannibalism occurs,

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Speaker 1: and we're we're documenting more and more of those scenarios

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Speaker 1: all the time. It's not always just star ovation at

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Speaker 1: the very edge of survival and the peaks of stress. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it's one of these things that is, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're learning as ubiquitous in the natural world. It it

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Speaker 1: offers some really key advantages, though there are some downsides.

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Speaker 1: It remains highly popular without ever becoming like the thing

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Speaker 1: right like you made your species might engage in cannibalism

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Speaker 1: for a number of different reasons, but you were not

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Speaker 1: going to become an obligate cannibal like that is where

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Speaker 1: the system would collapse. Yeah, and I think there are

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Speaker 1: some reasons that that's sort of impossible. I'll talk about

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Speaker 1: that in just a minute. It reminds me a lot

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Speaker 1: of some things I've heard about the band Primus. I've

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Speaker 1: heard stuff, but okay, well I'm going with you. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying that the members of Primus are cannibals, but

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Speaker 1: rather um, I think it was less Claypool himself, who

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Speaker 1: at one point pointed out that like they were in

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Speaker 1: a good place popularity wise, like they like they never

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Speaker 1: completely went out of fashion, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: like they never just really blew up. Like I feel

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Speaker 1: like most people, Uh, if you asked them, they might say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Primus is cool. I did Primus. I myself have enjoyed

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Speaker 1: a prime Primus in concert before, but I would I

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Speaker 1: would never say Primus is necessarily my favorite band. Uh. Likewise, cannibalism,

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Speaker 1: It's okay, I'm with you. I see what you're saying. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, they're Primus has long been By the way,

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Speaker 1: my candidate for what I joke about is like the

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Speaker 1: least sexy or least romantic possible music. So if you're

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Speaker 1: trying to like figure out what to put on for

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Speaker 1: a Valentine's Day dinner or something like that, so you

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Speaker 1: could go with like your Marvin Gay or you know,

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Speaker 1: your classic romantic options, and at the other end of

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Speaker 1: the spectrum you've got Primus. Yeah. For me, Primus is

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Speaker 1: more like driving around music, you know it nothing will

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Speaker 1: scribe if you if you were thirsting for primus, nothing

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Speaker 1: else will do. But then there are plenty of other

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Speaker 1: cases where it probably is not going to be the

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Speaker 1: ideal soundtrack for life. But anyway back back to canalism,

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Speaker 1: So yes, there it can be especially useful in certain

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Speaker 1: ecological situations. Uh and and there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: key benefits to the individual. On the other hand, it

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Speaker 1: can impact community dynamics. But the exact shape and scope

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Speaker 1: of a species cannibalism it varies greatly. Yeah, exactly. Um So,

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Speaker 1: so there are these obvious, like you're talking about, economic

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Speaker 1: and evolutionary limits on what forms cannibalism can take, even

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Speaker 1: though it can to each individual animal that practices that

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Speaker 1: give all kinds of benefits. One example would be that

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Speaker 1: you know, when one species regularly eats another species, it

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Speaker 1: is common that the prey species is in some way

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Speaker 1: more vulnerable, it's smaller or weaker, definitely more numerous than

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Speaker 1: the predator species. You can't make a diet out of

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Speaker 1: eating mostly or entirely animals that are say as good

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Speaker 1: at killing you in self defense as you are at

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Speaker 1: killing them in predation or the economics of acquisition. Just

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Speaker 1: don't work out, right, You're not gonna go chasing down

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Speaker 1: something that's got all the same muscles and teeth and

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Speaker 1: claws and all that as you. Right, you have to

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Speaker 1: have some sort of an advantage, either a direct biological

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Speaker 1: advantage or some sort of behavioral advantage such as pack

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Speaker 1: hunting or something like that. But but even in those

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Speaker 1: cases it can be exceedingly risky. And and think again,

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Speaker 1: how I mean, I think we sometimes because we have

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Speaker 1: medical care, we uh downplay the risks to an animal

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Speaker 1: in the wild of a mirror like you know, leg

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Speaker 1: injury or something like that, which can be fatal to

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Speaker 1: an animal in the wild, while you know, you can

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Speaker 1: just go to the hospital and get fixed up. So

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Speaker 1: if adults of a species focus on other similarly sized

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Speaker 1: adults of the same species, hunting probably becomes too dangerous

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Speaker 1: to sustain as a regular practice. Also, a species cannot

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Speaker 1: make a diet out of eating mostly or entirely animals

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Speaker 1: that are less numerous than itself, because it's going to

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Speaker 1: run out of food and starve, or it's gonna have

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Speaker 1: to switch to a different food source. If an animal

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Speaker 1: were to eat primarily or entirely members of its own species, Uh,

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Speaker 1: there would immediately be a couple of problems. And number one,

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Speaker 1: you would have to think, if it's a sexually reproducing species,

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Speaker 1: this behavior is probably going to interfere with mating and

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Speaker 1: lead to depletion of mates. Probably more importantly, the species

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Speaker 1: couldn't survive. It would sort of eat itself to extinction.

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Speaker 1: Like if every member of the species needed to eat

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Speaker 1: one other member of the species every month in order

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Speaker 1: to not starve to death. Your best case scenario is

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Speaker 1: having the number of individuals every month. Now, maybe you

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Speaker 1: think you could replace those through rapid reproduction, but where

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Speaker 1: does the energy to create and grow those new bodies

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Speaker 1: come from unless you're eating even more of your own kind.

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Speaker 1: So it seems kind of I was trying to find

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Speaker 1: an example of something that comes close, but it seems

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Speaker 1: to me you can't really have something like an obligate

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Speaker 1: cannibal species, something that only eats its own kind. That

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Speaker 1: seems like an an absurdity. So you have that fact,

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Speaker 1: but then you also have the fact that we do

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Speaker 1: observe lots of in species cannibalistic behavior in the wild

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Speaker 1: in the wild, and we know that this can only

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Speaker 1: take place in sort of limb did conditions and scenarios,

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Speaker 1: and we're discovering more and more of those types of

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Speaker 1: scenarios all the time. Here's a common one we know.

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Speaker 1: You can't just eat members of your own species for

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Speaker 1: your entire diet and have every member of your species

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Speaker 1: do this for your entire life, for the species would

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Speaker 1: cease to exist. But within certain phases of life, cannibalism

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Speaker 1: can be a primary strategy. Consider the larval stage of

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Speaker 1: many amphibians. Uh you have like cannibal morph larvae of

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Speaker 1: tiger salamanders. We talked about those in our episode on

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Speaker 1: salamanders with Mark Mandica. Or think about the cannibalistic tadpoles

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Speaker 1: of toad species like the spadefoot toad. And this is

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Speaker 1: where the biggest tadpoles in a small body of water

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Speaker 1: will eat the smaller ones to survive and grow even bigger.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like a letting letting the strongest of

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Speaker 1: the of the litter absorb the energy of all the others. Now,

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Speaker 1: obviously this kind of strategy can't be continued for the

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Speaker 1: amphibians entire life cycle, but it can work in a

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Speaker 1: phase of the life cycle because the other energy inputs

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Speaker 1: into that phase. Another great example from another episode we

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Speaker 1: had with a with a guest was thinking about intra

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Speaker 1: uterine cannibalism in some sharks species, like we talked about

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Speaker 1: with Mara Hart, where some unborn sharks will swim over

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Speaker 1: and eat their siblings or half siblings before they even

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Speaker 1: leave their mother's uterus. Do we talk about cannibalism with

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Speaker 1: all of our guests? I don't know. It does seem

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Speaker 1: to come up a good fit, but maybe we do.

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Speaker 1: I don't think we brought either of these up, did we.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess they were just an innate part

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Speaker 1: of the cut, the conversation and the expertise of the guests.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we just invite creepy guests. They're not creepy. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we're creepy. We're talking about cannibalism right now. We're definitely creepy.

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Speaker 1: So while cannibalism can't be the entire diet of a species,

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Speaker 1: it can be an important supplemental part of a diet,

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Speaker 1: especially in scenarios of environmental stress, and it can even

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Speaker 1: reduce competition when times are tough. One example here is

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Speaker 1: that cannibalism, according to what I've read, it's much more

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Speaker 1: common if you live life in the water. Oh, yes, definitely. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you're wet, you're probably involved in cannibalism in some way.

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Speaker 1: It just happens a lot more in aquatic environments. For example,

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Speaker 1: when fish are foraging for food, one type of energy

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Speaker 1: source they will often come across is little sphere ules

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Speaker 1: of lipids and energetic materials floating in the water. Other

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Speaker 1: fish eggs. Uh. These fill the waters of the ocean

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Speaker 1: by the bazillions, and this will include some eggs of

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Speaker 1: their own species, which they basically just eat discriminately along

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Speaker 1: with the other eggs. We recently did the episode on

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Speaker 1: the Christmas Island crabs. Oh, yeah, where they just stuff

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Speaker 1: the crabble are right into their mouths. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: how do you know if it's your own offspring. Chances

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Speaker 1: are it's not. There's so many out there, it's probably

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Speaker 1: somebody else's. Also, I think I accidentally said that they

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Speaker 1: will eat them discriminately. Obviously they eat them indiscriminately, is

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Speaker 1: what I mean. Fish don't discriminate. But yeah, it works

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Speaker 1: out because fish produce a lot of eggs. Under the

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Speaker 1: evolutionary assumption that most of the eggs, many of the

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Speaker 1: eggs at least, will not survive and the eggs of

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Speaker 1: one's own species are only a supplemental part of the

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Speaker 1: adult fishes diet, not the whole thing for the whole species,

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Speaker 1: which again would be a problem. But the phenomenon of

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Speaker 1: adults eating young of their own species actually happens in

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Speaker 1: many scenarios outside the water too. Obviously, it would make

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Speaker 1: no sense for animals to have instincts to kill and

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Speaker 1: eat all of their own young, but there is some

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Speaker 1: selective strategic snacking of this kind. Like often rodent mothers

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Speaker 1: will eat some of their own litters, especially those that

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Speaker 1: are sickly or don't seem like they're gonna thrive. Male

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Speaker 1: carnivores like lions, will sometimes eat the cubs sired by

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Speaker 1: another male, and this tends to increase the female lions

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Speaker 1: receptivity to mating and the pride. Yeah, this is seen

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Speaker 1: in bears as well, for sure. Oh yeah, definitely. And

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Speaker 1: then there are some really strange cases that were observing

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Speaker 1: again more and more all the time, even with animals

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Speaker 1: once thought to be herbivores engaging in occasional cannibalism. Here's

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Speaker 1: when I came across hip pose what hundred percent herbivores right, Well,

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Speaker 1: that this one one I always assumed. I mean you

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Speaker 1: hear to hear about like the vast amount of vegetation

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Speaker 1: that a given hippo needs to consume, and that is

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Speaker 1: their primary diet. They mostly are herbivores, but occasionally they'll

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Speaker 1: just be versatile. So we used to think there are

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Speaker 1: a hundred percent herbivores. They're mostly herbivores, except now it's

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Speaker 1: been observed that sometimes they'll kill and eat an impula,

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Speaker 1: or even sometimes they will eat a fellow hippopotamus. Well,

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Speaker 1: they are ferocious. I mean, we can't take that away

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Speaker 1: from them. So there are just more and more examples

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Speaker 1: all the time that science is documenting about ways that

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Speaker 1: animals will occasionally or opportunistically or even in some controlled ways,

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Speaker 1: regularly engage in direct in species cannibalism. Yeah. I was

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Speaker 1: reading the amazingly titled two thousand tin paper Cannibals in Space,

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Speaker 1: the Coevolution of Cannibalism and Dispersal in spatially structured Populations

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Speaker 1: and U. And in this the authors point out that

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Speaker 1: the propensity for cannibalism, you know, it's going to vary

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Speaker 1: considerably among even closely related species. And then a lot

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Speaker 1: of questions remain concerning exactly what drives variation and the

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Speaker 1: evolution of cannibalism across and even within a species, and

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Speaker 1: the can and the same can be said for the

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Speaker 1: evolutionary consequences of cannibalism. Yeah, a lot about cannibalism remains

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Speaker 1: an open question. There's still a ton we don't know.

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Speaker 1: But I think one thing that is emerging is what

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Speaker 1: we're getting some good ideas of what the major downsides

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Speaker 1: to cannibalism are, like, what are the limitations that are

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Speaker 1: imposed on it as a practice, And so I want

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Speaker 1: to mention I think three major ones that there may

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Speaker 1: be other ones, but these are three major ones. One is,

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Speaker 1: if you're practicing cannibalism, you could end up eating animals

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Speaker 1: closely related to you. And given the self preserving tendencies

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Speaker 1: of genes and evolution, there's going to be a selection

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Speaker 1: pressure against this. Genes will tend to come about and

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Speaker 1: become prevalent within the species that say don't eat each

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Speaker 1: other if you have this gene. Also, as we mentioned

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Speaker 1: are here, it's a risky to try to kill and

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Speaker 1: need an animal that has ald the same equipment you do,

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Speaker 1: the teeth, the muscles, the fighting abilities, it's easier to

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Speaker 1: go after weaker prey, and there's usually some kind of

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Speaker 1: weaker prey out there. But there are ways around both

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Speaker 1: of these. I mean, for one thing, you can try

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Speaker 1: to avoid eating animals you're closely related to, even if

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Speaker 1: you're eating your own species, by evolving ways of detecting relatedness.

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Speaker 1: So maybe you know there's some gene that allows you

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Speaker 1: to recognize who is your from your immediate family and

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Speaker 1: not eat them. I actually have an example of this.

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Speaker 1: We'll come back to that later. Okay. Another thing you

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Speaker 1: can get around is that animals with cannibalistic tendencies can

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Speaker 1: get around the problem of fighting uh something, fighting something

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Speaker 1: just as big and dangerous as as you are by

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Speaker 1: eating smaller, weaker con specifics. And this can take the

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00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: form of sexual cannibalism, like in some spiders like the

425
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: red back spider, where there's a huge difference in size

426
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,479
Speaker 1: between the males and females and it works out just

427
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: fine for the females to eat the males after mating,

428
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 1: or this can happen with adults preying on larvae or

429
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 1: smaller juveniles of their own species. But finally, one last

430
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 1: big problem with cannibalism, and we'll come back to this.

431
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 1: When you eat your own kind, you put yourself at

432
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 1: risk of catching diseases and parasites. You're more likely to

433
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: consume or otherwise expose yourself to something bad that can

434
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 1: infect your species. If you're eating animals that are already

435
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: of your own same species, Yeah, you're basically diving into

436
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,679
Speaker 1: a swimming pool of this other individual's potential viruses and illnesses.

437
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: You're you're diving into a swimming pool marked bio hazard. Yeah.

438
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 1: So there's always a cost benefit calculation going on. And

439
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: I'm not saying obviously that the animals are doing this

440
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: calculation consciously in their heads, but somehow this calculation is

441
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: being worked out. There benefits to cannibalism, there's an obvious

442
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 1: energy advantage, and there are all these downsides, And so

443
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 1: the circumstances and and the specific traits of each individual

444
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: species are going to interact to determine when cannibal is

445
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: m is actually appropriate. Alright, Well, on that note, we're

446
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 1: going to take a quick break, but when we come back,

447
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 1: we're gonna continue exploring this topic. And we're going to

448
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: kick off by discussing this idea of near cannibalism a

449
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: little bit more than thank you. All right, we're back.

450
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 1: So we were just talking about the limitations, Uh, well,

451
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 1: all of the examples we see of cannibalism in the

452
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 1: natural world, true cannibalism where members of one animal species

453
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: are eating members of the same animal species. Uh. And

454
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: then limitations on wind cannibalism can be practiced, and what

455
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: what might hold it hold it at bay from becoming

456
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: too prevalent. But there are probably examples of animals doing

457
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: something that is not quite cannibalism, but where they're eating

458
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: something that's kind of close to them. Yeah, And so

459
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: I started looking around for answers on this, and one

460
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: thing that that did come up when I was looking

461
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: for near cannibalism and um and you know, scholars, scholarly

462
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: works and academic papers, I ended up running across it

463
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: in some myth papers on myth and medieval histories. And

464
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: I found this rather telling, not so much about like

465
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: what's going on in the animal kingdom, but about like

466
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: why I'm fascinated with it, Why this idea of near

467
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: cannibalism is perhaps even a little more interesting than interesting

468
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: to me compared to apps absolute cannibalism. So For instance,

469
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,959
Speaker 1: there are medieval accounts of the Danes roasting animal flesh

470
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: to eat alongside, like right next to heaped the heaped

471
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: human dead from a battle, so like feasting on the

472
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 1: battle grounds with their slain enemies around them, almost sort

473
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: of suggesting a mental connection. Uh yeah, And of course,

474
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: again these are accounts of the Danes probably you know,

475
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: with it with the idea of portraying them as being

476
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: in the state of of near cannibalism, Like look at that,

477
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: they're just cooking their meat right next to the bodies

478
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: of the dead. They're just there's just one misstep away

479
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: from going full cannibals. Romans would never do anything like that.

480
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 1: Another thing that come up came up with was the

481
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: myth of like Cayan, which we recently discussed, and there's

482
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: an act of near cannibalism cannibalism there as well, where

483
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: the flesh of a human is offered up to the

484
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: god Zeus to say, like, hey, Zeus, do you want

485
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: to eat some human flesh? Like they're trying to trick Zeus. Uh. Now,

486
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: granted Zeus humans a god, but sort of yeah, I

487
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: mean it seems like species enough, like if if if

488
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: the gods of Greek mythology can mate with humans. It

489
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: seems like that they should be like biologically close enough

490
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: that eating us would be a cannibalism, right right. And

491
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: of course you know the gods, especially the Greek gods,

492
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: they were down for any number of horrible acts. They

493
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: would turn into an animal to mate with a human,

494
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But I guess the thing is

495
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 1: that they probably are not going to look kindly on

496
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: being tricked into doing anything vile that they didn't want

497
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 1: to do. No, And of course when Zeus was almost

498
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: tricked into eating human flesh, he retaliated. By their different

499
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: tellings of the story, sometimes he retaliates by just like

500
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: killing a bunch of people. Sometimes he retaliates by turning

501
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: the king who tried to trick him into a were wolf,

502
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: has pointed out by seed down him in the Good,

503
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: the Bad, and the Ugly portrayals of Vikings in the

504
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: Fragmentary Animals of Ireland, near cannibalism and near paganism were

505
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: considered the apotheosis of the evil. Yeah, you see this

506
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 1: in many ancient sources. It's like cannibalism is sort of

507
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: held out as it's it's the archetype of barbarism. You know,

508
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: it's like the ultimate act that in itself in an

509
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: iconic way shows that somebody is not civilized and not good.

510
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: And there's something as he's pointing out her, there's something

511
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: tantalizing about like that that that moment before cannibalism, that

512
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: or that moment before paganism, like that slip that decline

513
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: into this barbarous nature. Uh, the idea that, oh, they're

514
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: not cannibals now, but I bet they'll be cannibals tomorrow

515
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: because look what they're doing right now. And of course, uh,

516
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: in the animal king um, all these species we're you know,

517
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: we're looking at cannibalism is already in the blueprint, like

518
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: it's already part of the of the of the act.

519
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: But there is there's something about about about that to

520
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: the the human mind, I think, you know, because we

521
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: can't help to think of of of all of these

522
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: changes taking place not against the the in in the

523
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: time scale of evolutionary history, but we think about it

524
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: within the terms of lifespan and the choices that we make.

525
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: But anyway back back to just like purely the the

526
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: animal world here I did can run across a study

527
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: that points at a possible case of cannibal fueled speciation,

528
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: because I think that's something to interest to think of,

529
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: because it's like if I'm if if one if within

530
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: a species, members of that species are deciding to just

531
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: go full cannibal like they're like, oh, I can just

532
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: eat my own species all the time. If that were

533
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: to happen, could that conceivably lead to a speciation event

534
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: where the cannibals become their own species. Oh yeah, that's

535
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: an interesting question. And so this this study I found

536
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: in two thousand seventeen study, and I should stress that

537
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: this is an unrefereed preprint in bio archive, so caveats

538
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: on not going through peer review, right. But in it,

539
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: the author's point to cannibalism in South American um annual

540
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: killie fish that's austro lebias as a possible speciation event.

541
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: So they're they're they're presenting what they refer to as

542
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: an alternate hypothesis for giant dwarf speciation where where some

543
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: of these uh we're basically the chilly fish here have

544
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: evolved in sympathy without geographic separation by character displacement and

545
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: cannibalism but in this day, the authors are discussing cannibalism

546
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: in South American annual killie fish, and the idea here

547
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: is that it could it could be a speciation event

548
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: going on here, that that accounts for giant dwarf speciation,

549
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: So basically bigger, bigger killy fish versus a smaller chilly fish,

550
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: and cannibalism could play a role in that right right there,

551
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: That that could be what's what's pushing this species into

552
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: two species based on the size of the individuals. Yeah,

553
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: that's interesting if I am understanding their argument correctly. Okay, Now,

554
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,959
Speaker 1: there's one thing that I had been thinking about as

555
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: a potential case of near cannibalism, which we've already sort

556
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: of discussed in a previous episode called Strange Milk. So

557
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: I won't linger on it too long. This has come

558
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: up before, but I just wanted to remind us of

559
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: one form of feeding that could be seen as analogous

560
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: to cannibalism, but without the element of lethal predation, and

561
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: that is found in various systems where an adult animal

562
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: feeds its offspring with some part of its own body. Ah. Yes,

563
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: so this is not predation. The offspring does not necessarily

564
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: kill and eat the adult, but it could be considered

565
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: a form of alternative cannibalism, as if I could like

566
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: off one of my arms and feed it to my kids. Interesting,

567
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: and the great example here is the type of amphibian

568
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: known as Sicilians. Now it's not spelled like from Sicily.

569
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: It's c A E C I L I A N.

570
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: Sicilians are amphibians. They're kind of like frogs and salamanders,

571
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: but they've got no legs. They look like a cross

572
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: between a snake and a worm, like a like a

573
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: wet earth snake. They tend to live underground, so we

574
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: rarely see them, and if you do see one, you

575
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: might mistake it for some kind of gigantic worm. Yes,

576
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: I remember we we talked about about the about the

577
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: Sicilians with Mark Pendina. Oh yeah. And one of the

578
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,959
Speaker 1: things we talked about with the Sicilians and the strange

579
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: Mailk episode was that after the mother of a Sicilian

580
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: species called a boo Langarula titan us gives birth, she

581
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: turns her outer skin into a nutrient rich secretion for

582
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: her offspring, and then the young gross special teeth. I've

583
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: seen these referred to as shaped a slotted spoon so

584
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: that they grow special teeth, uh quote, which they used

585
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: to peel and eat the outer layer of their mother's

586
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: modified skin. And that's a quote from a two thousand

587
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: six paper in Nature. So basically, the mother turns her

588
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: skin into like this cheese like substance, and then the

589
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: juvenile worm like creatures chew off their mother's skin. They

590
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: peel her like a like a vegetable. This is interesting.

591
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: This is it's very it's consensual. It's it's not just

592
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: a situation where the young eat the mother, but the

593
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: mother is mother said is essentially saying, here, take of

594
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: this specially prepared skin and eat it in remembrance of me. Yes,

595
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: take of my body and take of my skin. I mean.

596
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: It seems to combine multiple elements of the Texas Chainsaw

597
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: Massacre together at once, but somehow without the massacre. So

598
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: there's the peeling of skin, peeling the skin off, and

599
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: a form of near cannibalism, but without the elements of predation.

600
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: The the the willing adults says, try my skin. It's good,

601
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: and they do. That's what we aid for the the

602
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: to to reboot the Texas Chainsaw Massacre franchise is we

603
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: need to we need to take the mascre at mascre

604
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: at just have everything else happening consentually, and ultimately that's

605
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,479
Speaker 1: going to be more terrifying. I think it's just about

606
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: a consensual human barbecue cook from from Texas. Yeah, you know,

607
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: I've had that thought with a few different horror films

608
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: that have come out where you know, they're there, you know,

609
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: people behind them are sometimes pushing the boundaries and they're like,

610
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: and it's all about like horrible things being done to people.

611
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: And I'm and I'm thinking, you know, the creators here

612
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: obviously they think that this is that this is horrible,

613
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: and this is a terrifying vision of of life. But

614
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: but what if what if it what if everyone was

615
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: engaging in it willingly, like you know, then it would

616
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: put an entirely different spin, and arguably a more thought

617
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: provoking and even terrifying spin. I feel like that's often

618
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: what black mirror is. Black mirror is often like a

619
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: what would otherwise be like a horror movie or a

620
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: horror show, except most of the time the people who

621
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: are the victims of whatever is happening in the episode

622
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: get involved consensually. Yeah, because it's technology because the technology exactly. Like,

623
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,240
Speaker 1: for instance, if you had a Friday the Thirteenth film

624
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: where all of the young people went off to camp

625
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: and the thing that they all really hoped for, that

626
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: the thing they desired most of all, was to be

627
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: massacred by the mass killer that runs the woods. You

628
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: know that that would fulfill some sort of deep desire

629
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: in them, some desire for I don't know, like teenage

630
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: martyrdom or something like that. Ultimately, like that that that

631
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: gets me thinking a lot more. There's a sort of

632
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: almost element of that in Hell Raiser. I guess people

633
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: are looking for trouble messing around with a puzzle box.

634
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: They should know better than Yeah, And of course that

635
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: would make sense. Clive Barker, especially in the younger Clive Barker,

636
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: I think he did engage in a lot of a

637
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: lot more subversive treatment of these things. Well, speaking of

638
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: Clive Barker, okay, on that. You know, I thought of

639
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: Clive Barker already earlier in this episode when there were

640
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: a couple of times where you just said flesh and

641
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 1: I was like, you kind of can't do that without

642
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: saying it in the Doug Bradley voice. Yeah, obviously, we're

643
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: big fans of some of the hell Raizor films, and

644
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: and uh, and I definitely hold up some of Barker's work,

645
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: especially his books of blood short stories. There's some some

646
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: really good short stories in those collections. Yeah, I've always

647
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: meant to read them, might never have yet. But we

648
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,760
Speaker 1: should get back to near cannibalism. Well, let's bring things

649
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: around to the human realm, or at least the you know,

650
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: the the ancient human realm. So let's talk about humans

651
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: and Neanderthals. So evidence has been presented and sometimes dismissed

652
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: regarding regarding cannibalism among both ancient humans. Though it gets

653
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: kind of complicated because we're talking about ancient humans, but

654
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: technically you call these modern humans. They're they're ancient from

655
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 1: our standpoint, but they are evolutionarily modern humans. So uh,

656
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: at anyway that there's there's their arguments and evidence for

657
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: both these ancient modern humans and the indertal is engaging

658
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: in cannibalism. And as we've discussed on the show before,

659
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: the evidence that scientists look for when they're talking about that,

660
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: they're looking for signs of processing on the bones. In

661
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: other words, it's not enough that a human or a

662
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: neandertal skull was caved in by heavy object, But are

663
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: there signs of the bodies having been systematically or ritually

664
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: stripped of meat or marrow for the purposes of consumption?

665
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: And uh so, so that's one of the things they

666
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: look for. And as Bill Shoot points out in his

667
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: his excellent book Cannibalism, archaeologists generally want to match this

668
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: sort of evidence up with similar damage on the bones

669
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: of game animals from the same site, so that way

670
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: they can say, look, this is what these people were

671
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: doing to the bones of animals that were clearly praise

672
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: a prey species, and here's what was done to the

673
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: bones of other members of the species. And then you

674
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: have more of a direct comparison to make here, so

675
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: that you can say, this looks like this was cannibalism.

676
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: That all makes sense. There's some pretty convincing there's some

677
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: pretty convincing evidence that Neanderthals engaged in cannibalism, at least

678
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: survival cannibalism. And Shoot points out in his book that

679
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: the near Neanderthal species Homo antecessor quote, may have simply

680
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: considered others of their kind to be food, and he

681
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: pointed out. You know that again, this is hardly out

682
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: of step with the rest of the animal kingdom. Cannibalism

683
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: is ubiquitous, so it's not surprising that Neanderthals or Neanderthal ancestor,

684
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: or that Homo sapiens engaged in this practice. But what

685
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 1: what's interesting us the most for this episode is the

686
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 1: question of near cannibalism. Right, whether ancient modern humans considered

687
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 1: Neanderthal's prey or vice versa, how much uh consumption of this,

688
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 1: of this this other man like creature was going on, this,

689
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: how much near cannibalism was happening. So for starters, we

690
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: have some competing theories, but for the most part, we

691
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what happened to the Neanderthal. They obviously

692
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: they went extinct, and we know that they likely transition

693
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: from Homo antecessor to Homo Neanderthal plenis about about a

694
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand years ago, and then they went

695
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: extinct thirty thousand years ago, So that's kind of the

696
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: the period of their existence as far as we understand it.

697
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 1: One hypothesis is that that's out there is that humans

698
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,959
Speaker 1: in the Neanderthals interbred and that they simply became us,

699
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: or at least they became those of us with some

700
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: portion of Neanderthal DNA and uh, and there is there

701
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: is DNA evidence to support this, and then there but

702
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 1: there's some that to take issue with leaning too heavily

703
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: on this idea. Apparently, paleo anthropologist Ian Tattersall, who Shoot

704
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: interviews in the Cannibalism book Um this guy, is a

705
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: critic of the idea, and he argues that quote structurally, anatomically,

706
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: and presumably behaviorally too, Neanderthals and modern humans were very,

707
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 1: very different, and he says that while a certain amount

708
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: of genetic exchange definitely took place, he doesn't think that

709
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: they were absorbed into our population through inter breeding alone. Now, interestingly,

710
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: Tattersall points out that modern humans and Neandertals managed to

711
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: share the Near East for a long time, but this

712
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: was before we became creatures of symbolism, as Shoot puts it, quote,

713
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: an advanced symbolism driven species. These new humans at least

714
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 1: outcompeted the Neanderthals for resources, and it's reasonable to expect

715
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 1: that they did a bit more than that. Right when

716
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: you look at at certainly the way humans have have

717
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: treated other groups of humans, um, you know throughout history. Now,

718
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: some researchers have argued in support of of of predation

719
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: and cannibalism that that Homo sapiens uh hunted and consumed

720
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: Neanderthal meat. But there's currently no clear fossil evidence that

721
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: this occurred. So it might seem uh like something that

722
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: they would have done. We can, we can point to

723
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 1: aspects of human nature and and uh in humanity's historical

724
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: treatment of others, but when it comes down to the

725
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: hard fossil evidence of it, when it comes down to

726
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 1: looking at bones and looking for signs of processing, uh,

727
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: it's just not there. Again, we have clear evidence of

728
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: cannibalism in either group of Homo sapiens eating Homo sapiens

729
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: and neandertals eating the ander dolls, but uh, if it occurred,

730
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: we don't have any evidence of actual intragenous cannibalism between

731
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: the inder dolls and Homo sapiens. That's interesting. That being said,

732
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: I think if if you were to present me with

733
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: the time machine and make me place money on the

734
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: on on the the chances that humans in Neanderdals, I

735
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: would personally um want to place my back on humans

736
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: eating neander DoLS. Well, i'd say it's probably because humans

737
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 1: will eat anything. That's true. If something existed, humans probably aided.

738
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: I bet generally a safe bet. Now, let's back up

739
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: out of the human realm here, and I want to

740
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: come back to something you said earlier about how a

741
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: particular cannibalizing species might make sure that it's not cannibalizing

742
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: its own young Oh yeah, or or members of its

743
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: own near family. Because then you the closer relative within

744
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: your own species is the more genes you probably share

745
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: with them, which makes it more likely that some of

746
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: those genes would would discourage you from eating other carriers.

747
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: And so I found a recent article that deals with this.

748
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: Max Plank Society article titled a Peptide against Cannibalism from

749
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: April of twenty nineteen. The researchers noted that nematodes in

750
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: the genus pristianchas we're all all about some cannibalism because

751
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: their favorite food is worm lark. So how do you

752
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: keep from consuming your own offspring? Well, the answer, they

753
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: said is that they carry a quote small highly variable

754
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: protein on their surfaces. So what they do is they

755
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: experimented by offering adult worms of different uh of different

756
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: species again within this genus. Uh, they gave them their

757
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 1: own larva to potentially eat larva of a closely related

758
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: species or larva of a related line within their own species.

759
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: And in all cases they avoided their own larva but

760
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 1: tore into everything else, so they were they were totally

761
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 1: fine for eating another species. It's closely related to them

762
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: that near cannibalism. They were also readily engaging in an

763
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: absolute cannibalism. But uh, this peptide was at least aiding

764
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: in their identification of their own offspring and preventing them

765
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: from eating uh those uh those larva. They identified this

766
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: particular gene, which they called self one, as playing a

767
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: key role in distinguishing self from non self. However, it

768
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it's the only factor in the decision

769
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: to attack or not. And this is ultimately one of

770
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: those areas where more research is going to be needed.

771
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 1: But it does give us some idea of the kinds

772
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 1: of of mechanisms that are in place, that kind of

773
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: fail safes that are in place to keep cannibalism from

774
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: just decimating a species. Yeah, and it's really interesting trying

775
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: to work out exactly when and how those could controls

776
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: fall into place. All Right, we need to take a

777
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be right back. Alright, we're back now.

778
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: I want to talk about something related to what you

779
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: were just saying, especially when it comes to praying on

780
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: the larva of your own species or related species. Uh,

781
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: this is a case of true cannibalism, but with interesting features.

782
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the cane toad or Ranilla marina.

783
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 1: So the cane toad has an almost beaut to fully

784
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: horribly ironic history in Australia. I'm sure, I'm sure all

785
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: of our Australian listeners are pulling their hair out right

786
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: now because if you if you read Australian writers talk

787
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: about the cane toad, they there's I don't want to

788
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: over generalize, but there is very often utter revulsion just

789
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: the idea that they want to beat all these things

790
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: to death with a sock full of quarters. Now, we

791
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 1: we don't encourage wanton violence against wild animals, but there's

792
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 1: a reason behind this. So in the nineteen thirties, Australia

793
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: had a problem protecting sugar cane crops from populations of

794
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,479
Speaker 1: a pest known as the cane beetle, and in order

795
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: to control beetle populations in sugarcane agriculture, they introduced a

796
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: South American toad. I think this was a nive. It

797
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: was the cane toad. They brought it to Australia because

798
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: it was believed that this toad would eat up the

799
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: beetles that were getting to their crops. And this turned

800
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: out to be a horrible idea. Uh. The cane toad

801
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: became a kind of breakout character, right, It's like the

802
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: fawns circle, you know. It's like it took on a

803
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: life of its own for the continent of Australia. It

804
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 1: did eat some cane beetles, but it also became extremely

805
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: numerous and ate all kinds of other insects, and its

806
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: populations in Australia just exploded. So it's another case of

807
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 1: an already unbalanced environmental situation due to agricultural activities and

808
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: then they intentionally introduce an invasive species and things go

809
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: out of whack. Very bad idea. And what's worse, the

810
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: native marsupial and reptile predators of Australia, like crocodiles and

811
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: like coals that might have been expected to control and

812
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: exploding toad population by eating the toads were totally unprepared

813
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: because the cane toad produces toxins that kill the predators

814
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: that eat them, So since the cane toad was out

815
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: of its native range, the predators had no resistance to

816
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: these toxins and no one stinctual avoidance of the cane toads.

817
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: So simply introducing these like poison candy toads into the

818
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: ecosystem was devastating to some predator populations. But this threat

819
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: to predators doesn't apply only to the marsupials and the

820
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: reptiles like crocodiles that might eat the adult cane toads.

821
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 1: It would also apply to perhaps smaller predators that tried

822
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: to eat the cane toads also poisonous eggs. The eggs

823
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: have similar poisons. So I was reading a New York

824
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 1: Times article from two thousand eleven about research on cane toads.

825
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 1: The articles by Natalie Angier, but the the article tells

826
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 1: the story of a scientist named Dr Richard Shine, a

827
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: biologist at the University of Sydney in Australia, who began

828
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: to notice years back that cane toad eggs were being

829
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 1: depleted by something, and at first he assumed that some

830
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: predator was at risk of mass poisoning by eating these

831
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: killer toad eggs uh to quote from the article. Follow up,

832
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 1: field Stead soon revealed the identity of the caviar thieves

833
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: to the researchers astonishment. Dr Shine said it was cane

834
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: toads themselves, or rather their tadpoles, which would swim over

835
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: to each fresh batch of vanilla eggs and quote desperately

836
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: consume every slick black sphere that they could find. And

837
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: then a two thousand eleven study in the journal Animal

838
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: Behavior found that not only do cane toads cannibalize eggs

839
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: from their own species, they strongly prefer them. When given

840
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: the option to eat cane toad eggs or other food

841
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: sources like similar eggs from another amphibian species, the cane

842
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: toads went right for the delicious cane toad eggs. And

843
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: this was just the cane toads that did this, It

844
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: wasn't other uh frogs amphibian species. Now, remember that while

845
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 1: lots of species practice cannibalism under some circumstances, no species

846
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: is exclusively obligately cannibalistic like that would make no sense.

847
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: But what if you're kind of edging in that direction

848
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 1: by at least in one stage of life, preferring to

849
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 1: eat your own kind over other forms of prey. Yeah,

850
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 1: we're definitely in that near well, we're definitely in that

851
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 1: that zone where it's cannibalism. But is it potentially becoming

852
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: something else? Now? You would think since this is tadpoles

853
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: eating eggs of the same species, you think maybe once

854
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: you metamorphos into an adult cane toad, you'd get past this,

855
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: uh this problem? Right? The answer is no. Studies have

856
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: also shown that that like midsize adult cane toads like

857
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: to eat smaller, younger cane toads. They even have like

858
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: deceptive lure tactics where they will wiggle the toes of

859
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: their back feet in water to attract smaller conspecifics and

860
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: then just literally swallow them whole. So I've, as we've discussed,

861
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: there's lots of occasional opportunistic cannibalism in the animal world.

862
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 1: But what causes the cane toads to go so hard

863
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: after their own species? Why do cane toads prey on

864
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: other cane toads so aggressively, and the researchers here in

865
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: this paper i mentioned hypothesize several answers with regard to

866
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: the campbalization of eggs by by cane tode tadpoles. Number One,

867
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: it eliminates rivals who you're probably not related to, and

868
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,760
Speaker 1: this has to do with the specifics of the timing

869
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: of ovipositing and mating by cane toads. Obviously, it doesn't

870
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: make evolutionary sense to eat your own brothers and sisters,

871
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: but due to the timing of cane toade reproduction, if

872
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: you're a cane toad tadpole and there are eggs in

873
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: the pond with you, you can be pretty sure they

874
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 1: belong to some other family of cane toad's. Number two,

875
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: eating the eggs speeds up the maturation of tadpoles. Obviously

876
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: it's free energy. And three, the resource is abundant since

877
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: it's poisonous and other potential predators can't eat it, but

878
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: you can, since cane toads are immune to their own poison,

879
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: so they're kind of like the de facto specialized predator

880
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: of their own young. It's it's like when you know

881
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: somebody orders something for lunch, and there's one thing out

882
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 1: on the buffet that you're the only person in the

883
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: office that likes. So it's all for you. Enjoy this

884
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: braised red cabbage robbers. And there's a quote from from

885
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: Dr Shine in that Times article where he says, quote,

886
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: we're talking about a tropical animal that was relocated to

887
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: one of the driest places on Earth. Cannibalism is one

888
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: of those clever tricks that makes it such a superb

889
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: colonizer and a survival machine. Talking about the cane toad um. Now,

890
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: of course this does come with some of the regular

891
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,720
Speaker 1: downsides of cannibalism, like it came across the two thousand

892
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 1: eleven paper with a pretty great title. Also, Richard Chin

893
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: was one of the authors on this quote. You are

894
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 1: what you eat parasite transferring cannibalistic cane tod So you know,

895
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: do cane toad's risk infection and paras parasitization by eating

896
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: their own The answer is, oh yes. When a cane

897
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 1: toad eats another cane toad and infected with, for example,

898
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: nematode lung worms. This study found that the cannibal toad

899
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 1: can end up with viable lung worms in its own body,

900
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: so they are paying this cost for their cannibalism behaviors.

901
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: And nevertheless, I was reading in another context that cane

902
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: toads are so aggressively cannibalistic that that cane toad juice

903
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: from the poison glands of an adult cane toad is

904
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: one of the best imaginable baits for a trap for

905
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 1: catching cane tone tadpoles. Okay, I think it's a cane

906
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 1: tone cane toad tadpoles. That's a tongue twister. Uh So

907
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: it smells like eggs, right, because they have these same

908
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: chemicals and poisons, And it's an ingenious method for removing

909
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 1: the tadpoles of this invasive species from a water source

910
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: without harming other creatures. Like the cannibalistic tadpoles are attracted

911
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: to it in swarms because of course they want to

912
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,760
Speaker 1: eat the eggs of their own kind, and other animals

913
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: are not really attracted to it at all. So you

914
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: can put traps out with this and catch thousands of

915
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: cane toad tadpoles and almost nothing else. But I think

916
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: it seems like this species in Australia in particular favors cannibalisms.

917
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: Aggressively because it's a tough physical environment, like they need

918
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: to reproduce in water, and yet it's a relatively dry landscape.

919
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: And yet at the same time, there's an abundance of

920
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 1: their own species due to a lack of adapted predators. Interesting,

921
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: So I feel like one of the crazy things about

922
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: this is that a lot of what they're observing here

923
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: it's it's it's nothing you would observe, at least on

924
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: this scale in their natural habitat, Like they're the cane

925
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: todes of Australia have this kind of bloated and and

926
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: an natural space in the ecosystem that has yet to

927
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,879
Speaker 1: be uh, you know, sort of recalibrated by other factors. Yeah.

928
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: Now I don't know what they're what they're cannibalistic tendencies

929
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 1: are like within their native range, it might be something equivalent,

930
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: but but this seemed to be focused on the ones

931
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 1: that are in Australia, So I'm not sure how prevalent

932
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 1: this would be in the species as they live in

933
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,399
Speaker 1: South America. It's like, if you know, if cannibals took

934
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: over a date care, like and you observed it on

935
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: like the first day of activities, you know, it's like

936
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,879
Speaker 1: everything is going to be crazy that first day. Hopefully

937
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: by day three or four things would have have settled

938
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: down and or the police had shown up, etcetera. Uh.

939
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 1: And of course before that, before the cannibals took over

940
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: the daycare, you would not have this um, this out

941
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,919
Speaker 1: of balance scenario in which to observe how things would

942
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: take place. That's a beautiful analogy. Wrout. Before we wrap up,

943
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention just one more type of predation

944
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: that we might consider a kind of close analogy to cannibalism,

945
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: and that is when you kill and eat an animal

946
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: that is not the same species as you, So it's

947
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 1: not cannibalism, but which makes a living the same way

948
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: you do, maybe does the same job as you. And

949
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: this brings us to a biological concept and as intra

950
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: guild predation, in the words of entomologists j Rosenheim and

951
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: Jason Harmon into intra guild predation occurs quote when two

952
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: consumers that share a resource and which therefore are potential competitors,

953
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: also engage in predator prey interactions with each other. So

954
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: you've got two different species competing for the same resource.

955
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: Like how at different times. Maybe Elmer Fudd and Yosemite

956
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: Sam are both trying to go hunting for bugs Bunny.

957
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: But what if instead Elmer Fudd kills and eats Yosemite Sam. See,

958
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 1: this solves two survival problems at the same time. It

959
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 1: provides an immediate meal. You get to eat Yosemite Sam,

960
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: and there's energy in that. But it also reduces future

961
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 1: competition for the webbit. Right, all right, it's a it's

962
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 1: a basic Freddy versus Jason scenario. Right, Yeah, that's pretty good.

963
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: So the benefits of this kind of thing are obvious,

964
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 1: and there are a couple of versions here. There is

965
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: asymmetrical inter guild predation, and this occurs when two species

966
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 1: compete for the same prey resources and one of those

967
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: two species also kills and eats the other. And then

968
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: there's what you might guess, the other half of that,

969
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: the other side of that coin, symmetrical intriguild predation. It's

970
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: when two species are in competition and they also both

971
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: kill and eat one another. If one predator is regularly

972
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 1: bigger than the other or something. This kind of two

973
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: way mutual predation can often cross the lines of life phases,

974
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: where say one predator adults of one predator prey on

975
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 1: the juveniles of the other predator. Okay, So with asymmetrical

976
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: um intriguild predation, there's always going to be probably a

977
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: clear winner, yeah, Like the the larger of the two

978
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: competing species is going to be the one that eats

979
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 1: the smaller. But in symmetrical interguild predation, it could go

980
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: either way depending on body size, phase of life, or

981
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 1: other factors of superiority exactly. And so this type of

982
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 1: stuff often happens in insects and arthropods that share the

983
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 1: same prey, like in some centipedes, but it also occurs

984
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 1: in large mammalian carnivores like canids and fields. They often

985
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: prey on one another when they're competing for the same

986
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: food resources, for example lions and wolves, or coyotes and

987
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: foxes or bobcats. According to a n paper in the

988
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 1: American Naturalists by by Palomari's and Caro uh quote, interspecific

989
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: killing among mammalian carnivores is common in nature and accounts

990
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: for up to sixty eight percent of known mortalities in

991
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: some species. So there's some carnivorous predatory mammals for which

992
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: more than two thirds of their deaths are caused by

993
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 1: other predatory mammals. And because inter guild predation accomplishes two

994
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: different goals at the same time, inter guild predation can

995
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: be extremely useful as the survival adaptation. It's a very

996
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: efficient way to do things. Of course, since members of

997
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 1: the same species are often in competition for the same resources,

998
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: the same advantages that apply to inter guild predation often

999
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 1: apply to straight up cannibalism. Right because you know you,

1000
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: you and the other one of your species you're you're

1001
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: probably also in competition. But straight up cannibalism is more

1002
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 1: likely to come with the other downs sides, such as

1003
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: reducing the gene pool of your own species, making making

1004
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: more difficult, exposing you to more parasites and diseases, and

1005
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 1: so forth. Now you said you were going to bring

1006
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 1: all this back to social media. No that I was.

1007
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this and I started to think

1008
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: that I see parallels between the strategy of intra guild

1009
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 1: predation and some types of business strategies, especially like in

1010
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: digital media where we work. So why don't you think

1011
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: about this example? What did Facebook due to the rest

1012
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: of the web? Like digital media companies are in competition

1013
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: for audience. You can almost think about audience as their

1014
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: prey in a way. They make money when more people

1015
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: spend more time on their side or their platform. Facebook

1016
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 1: was a digital media company in competition for users attention

1017
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: and time, and their competitors were the other places where

1018
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 1: people might spend their time on digital devices, other websites,

1019
00:57:56,080 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: other apps, other platforms. So it seems to me Facebook said,

1020
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: you know, instead of just competing with these other media platforms,

1021
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,919
Speaker 1: I will eat them. And that's sort of what it did.

1022
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: Right So now instead of just going to your blog

1023
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: or homepage or whatever, people would go to your Facebook

1024
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: page or just follow you on Facebook or rely on

1025
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: Facebook to keep people updated on what you're doing, whether

1026
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: you're a person or a business or a content provider.

1027
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: And I think the analogy holds that Facebook functions like

1028
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: an asymmetrical intriguild predator. Here it gets double benefits both

1029
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: by getting a direct meal off of you, like it

1030
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: gets the traffic that you would be getting elsewhere that

1031
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 1: gets just subsumed into its diet of traffic, and it

1032
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 1: reduces competition in the future by training people evermore to

1033
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: just go directly to Facebook instead of to other sites.

1034
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 1: And apps, And it makes me wonder if there are

1035
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 1: other examples in the business world where there is something

1036
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 1: like intriguild predation going on, where where one business gets

1037
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 1: double benefits out of assuming or subsuming another one. Yeah,

1038
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: I think you may have something. You may have a

1039
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 1: point there. I mean, also, it's very easy to imagine

1040
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 1: any of these large media companies as kind of a

1041
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 1: bloated cannibal king feasting and blood soaked on a on

1042
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: a pyramid of bones of its competitors. Uh, and the

1043
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 1: attentions of its clients. I couldn't put it any better

1044
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: than that, Robert, But but I feel like we're kind

1045
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 1: of given normal predators, a normal cannibals a bad name

1046
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 1: by associating them with with that kind of ghastly you know,

1047
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: very uh, you know, human centric image. That's true. Normal animals,

1048
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 1: even the ones that sometimes practice cannibalism, are not. Corporations

1049
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: don't decide that hippos are bad now just because occasionally

1050
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: hippos will eat another hippo, They're still they're hippos. They're animals,

1051
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 1: they're they're living within an ecology, and they're doing what

1052
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: they have to do to survive. Yeah, I mean, it's

1053
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 1: like with mice and hamsters and so forth. You know,

1054
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: it's like you can if you get one as a

1055
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 1: pet and you in your you end up tricking yourself

1056
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: or falling into this idea of thinking them it's like

1057
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 1: tiny furry people and you're a little furry friend that

1058
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: lives in this box and scurries around. And then but

1059
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 1: then if you're going to become horrified when they engage

1060
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: in something in humans such as cannibalizing their young, uh,

1061
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 1: And that's I mean, you should take that as a

1062
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 1: learning lesson. You know that this is ah, these are

1063
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 1: the perils of of anthropomorphizing, uh, the animal world and

1064
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 1: then then the wild world and the natural order of things.

1065
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 1: But really, cannibalism is simply ubiquitous and it is going

1066
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 1: to be practiced by um, you know, most of these

1067
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: organisms at one point or another. Totally exactly right. Though

1068
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 1: I want to make clear also I'm not implying that

1069
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:45,919
Speaker 1: the inverse excuse supplies where you can you can take

1070
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: that logic and apply it back to human institutions like

1071
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: people and like corporations and all that, because come on,

1072
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: they got people in them. People out oft know better.

1073
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 1: And also we are not condoning human cannibalism, right, that's

1074
01:00:57,800 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 1: what I mean. Yeah, I think you're just talking about

1075
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: the digital media, but neither one neither actually eat killing

1076
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: and eating other humans, nor doing stuff that's akin to

1077
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 1: cannibalism in metaphorical way right now, Survival cannibalism, that's that's

1078
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 1: a different scenario. If somebody's already dead and you've got

1079
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 1: nothing else to live on. Maybe maybe, But then again,

1080
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 1: like that's that's a decision you're going to have to

1081
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: make in those dire situations. We can't make it for you.

1082
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: It would be you know, it would just be rude

1083
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 1: of me to rule on that. I do not know

1084
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 1: the particulars of your survival cannibalism. So if you are

1085
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: in a survival cannibalism situation right now while listening to

1086
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 1: this podcast, I cast no judgment. Eat your earbuds. If

1087
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 1: that that's what you should do, well, maybe if you

1088
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 1: chew on the earbuds a little, it can distract you. Right,

1089
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 1: It's kind of like sucking on a button if you're thirsty, right,

1090
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: the I don't know if that actually works, but that's

1091
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 1: the old wives tale, right. This has been a lot

1092
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 1: of fun, Robert, Yeah, another page in the book of Cannibalism. Uh. Likewise,

1093
01:01:57,800 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 1: with a lot of these topics, there's so much more

1094
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 1: we could discuss, and cannibalism will probably come back around

1095
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 1: to cannibalism again, either generally or you know, regarding a

1096
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: specific organism at some point in the future. Uh. Also,

1097
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 1: I want to stress again that Bill shoot book Cannibalism

1098
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 1: is excellent. Do pick it up. You wrote another one

1099
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 1: on vampires dealing with vampiric organisms, and that too is

1100
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 1: an excellent read. So either of those books are wonderful

1101
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 1: if you want to, like I guess you know, slightly

1102
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 1: uh slightly ghastly um biological read, They're they're great books.

1103
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out more

1104
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, heading over to

1105
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where you'll

1106
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: find them. That's where you find links, oute of social accounts.

1107
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 1: That's where you will find a tab for our store

1108
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 1: where you can buy some merchandise. But if you want

1109
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 1: to help the show out, the best thing you can

1110
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: do is to rate and review us wherever you have

1111
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: the power to do so, and subscribe. Subscribe to Stuff

1112
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind subscribe to Invention as well. Uh,

1113
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: that's the other show that Joe and I do. It

1114
01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: is an invention by invention, look at human techno history. Recently,

1115
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 1: we've been spending a lot of time talking about photography

1116
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: and now we're getting into the realm of motion pictures,

1117
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 1: but in exactly the opposite direction. I've just had in

1118
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: mind a very ancient invention that I want to go

1119
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: back too soon. So so just keep that in mind

1120
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 1: as a tease ancient superweapons. Yeah, absolutely huge, Thanks as

1121
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producers Alex Williams and Tory Harrison.

1122
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

1123
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1124
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 1: a topic for the future, for just to say hello,

1125
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

1126
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

1127
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more

1128
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,

1129
01:03:51,200 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1130
01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 1: Bid good by Press four part first par