WEBVTT - Peter Paterno 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.360 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bomb Left Sets podcast. 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:18.560 My guest today is Attorney Extraordinary Peter Paterno. Hi. So, 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:21.960 Peter the Doctor's gonna win the World Series? I hope. So. 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:24.080 I don't know. It's very dicey with some good teams 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.640 in the So what are the weaknesses? It seems like, 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.960 you know, the relief pictures, they keep blowing it. They've 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:31.800 gotten better. I mean, if the pitching is gonna be 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:33.400 the key I think to the World Series. I mean, 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:35.879 the Astros are very, very good and the Yankees are 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:37.720 good too, so it's just gonna be an issue to 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.960 see who who makes it. In Well, what we learned 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.040 from last year were learned from last year. Don't pull 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:45.720 your picture when he's pitching a one hitter in the 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.960 seventh inning. I know the guys too into the statistics. 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:53.279 So in any event, in addition to being a music lawyer, 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.240 you're a huge music fan. How did you get into 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.800 music like when you were a kid? I mean, I 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:00.320 think I got into music the way that a lot 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:02.640 of us gotten the music, the Beatles. I mean, you know, 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:07.240 I blame my career on John Lennon. Okay, so I 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:09.399 believe that the path, the path for better or for 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:12.959 worse that I've taken is basically due to those those guys. Okay, 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:15.520 so were you a fan? Were you listening to the 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:18.000 Top forty or anything before the Beatles run ed? Sullivan, 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:20.119 I was a kid. I listened to music. I didn't 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:21.759 think any of it was, Honestly, it's kind of weird. 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.160 I remember the year before the Beatles broke, sitting there 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.560 as a kid thinking music isn't very good, is it? 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.080 I really, you know, it was, you know, all these 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.679 like girl groups and whatever else was happening then, and 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.000 it just wasn't good. I mean, I think the week 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:37.920 before the Beatles broke, I think number one was Dumb 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:40.080 and eque by the Singing Nuns. So it was close 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:42.800 yeah around there. Yeah so, and that was one of 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.160 the better songs on the Top forty. She never did 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:49.560 have a follow up though, No, they apparently she had to. 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.200 She haded tragic circumstances that pursued her, but I don't 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.400 remember what they were. Actually, I don't remember that. Okay, 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.280 But did you have a transistor radio as a kid? 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.480 Of course? Okay, but for you listened to the baseball games, 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:03.360 I assume I listened to the baseball games when I 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.960 was a kid, and the Dodgers moved from Brooklyn and 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.360 New York to Los Angeles, and I was living in 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:11.760 New York at the time, and I put my transistor 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:13.680 radio on and the game started then at eight They 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.760 started now at seven or earlier in the game started eight, 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:18.520 which is eleven o'clock New York time, and I put 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:20.799 the transistor under my pillow. I listened to the ball 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.480 games because the broadcast the Giant Dodger games back to 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:26.639 New York. I listened to Vince Gully on the radio 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.919 and fall asleep with a radio under my pillow. And 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:32.359 I remember you. They used to have the nine vote 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.079 batteries and I would test them by putting them on 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.400 my tongue to see if they still had any zip 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:38.520 to them. Yeah, I don't think I had nine vote 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.640 battery transistor radio. I think mine was regular whatever the 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.560 double as or whatever they are. Okay, So what age 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:47.800 did you move from New York to Los Angeles. I 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.600 was twelve, with twelve is kind old enough to know 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:53.160 what was going on. So when you move, where did 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.360 you live in New York? Again? I lived on Long 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:59.639 Island Okay, what town, Baldwin? Okay, alright, by my backyard 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:03.000 was in the center, but main house was involved within. Okay, 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.280 And before you moved to the West coast, did you 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.880 go to any concerts because he had the Nasau Coliseum? Okay, 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.280 maybe the Nashville Coliseum wasn't even built by that point. 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:13.560 I think it was because it's ended. It was like 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.720 a dump thing. The team's moved out of there, but 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.040 now they have a new arena. In any event, you 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:21.720 moved to l A, where do you move to in 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.000 Los Angeles? I actually moved to Orange County. I grew 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:28.120 up in Orange County and Tustin. Tustin is like landlocked. 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.400 It's not like by the beach, and it's pretty flat. Yeah. 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.000 At the time, though, it was kind of the end 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.040 of the world. I mean all the freeways ended there. 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.800 It was still very heavily populated by orange groves instead 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.720 of people. Yeah, I mean the house next to me 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.840 had horses. And you know, we lived in Tustin proper. 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:46.400 It wasn't like we lived in like some weird place. 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:49.000 It was just it was a small community. And and 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:51.120 we used to go to the beach pretty regularly because 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.880 Newport Beach. You just got on the freeway and drove 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.800 down down the fifty five to its coast of Masa 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:58.560 and then you went to Newport Beach. So, yeah, we 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:00.560 spent our summers at the beach. How far was that 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:04.000 from tust him, you know, I think it's seven miles 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.920 actually something like that. I didn't realize it was that close. Yeah, 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:08.720 And what did your father or mother do for a 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:11.760 living when you lived in Tustin. My mother was a teacher. 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.000 She taught um for a while, biology, then she taught 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.120 languages at the local high school where I went to 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.599 high school. And my dad was a contracts administrator for 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.400 various facets of the defense industry. So he'd get laid 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:27.520 off every two or three years when the budget name 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:29.200 would go down and go up, and go down and 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.919 go up. So his training was in finance or engineering. 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:35.719 I think he got I know when I was a kid. 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:37.560 He went to n y U and got an NBA 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.440 at night at night in night school, so he you know, 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:45.360 he had he had. My parents both went to Brooklyn College, 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.080 but my dad left early to go to the world. 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:52.560 We're talking about the Brookley in Brooklyn, California. Brooklyn College. 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:54.400 They went to Brooklyn College. They my parents grew up 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:56.440 in Brooklyn, which is why I'm a huge Dodger fan. 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.800 And my dad left early. They allowed the people that 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.640 you know, the guy shipping out, They let him graduate early. 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.200 So he went out to the war and then came back. 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.080 And you know, I don't know what he did, but 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.080 when I was a little kid, he went to get 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:11.400 his graduate degree at n y U and business and 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.880 ended up doing whatever he did, okay, did he used 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:19.080 to tell stories about the war. Not much. It's actually 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.200 it was fairly traumatic for him. And I think he 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:24.520 had a little bit of a you know, uh p 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:27.479 ptsd P. Yeah, I mean, I guess what I heard. 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:29.479 I mean again, I was I wasn't born yet, but 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.600 I heard that he had he had some issues following 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.520 the war. And do you know what he did during 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.680 the war. He was he was in the South Pacific 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:41.720 and he um, I think he was a communications officer. 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:43.880 He you know, did walkie talkies and stuff like that. 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.599 And I think I don't know that much about it, okay, 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.360 But for those of us living on the East Coast, 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.839 to grow up in California in the sixties was a dream. Yes, 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.560 So what was it, like, I so didn't want to go, 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:57.440 I mean because I had all my friends in Baldwin 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.240 and I you know, I was getting ready to I 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:04.080 just graduate, and uh, you could graduated great school. So 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:06.000 I guess I was going into junior high and I 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:08.680 didn't want to go, and I was really upset. And 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.719 uh then we moved out here and it was great. 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:12.800 I mean it was just really great. I mean, you know, 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.839 um we lived in Orange County, were close to Disneyland, 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:18.880 which was exciting for me as a kid, and then 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.719 I could go to Dodger games and and there was 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:23.919 the beach and it was it was real. It was great. 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:28.160 How often would you go to Disneyland A lot? Really? Yeah? 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.760 I did? I went a lot. Okay. And were you 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.080 a popular kid in school? I don't know if I 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.240 was necessarily popular. I was the first couple of years 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.640 I had a New York accent and that wasn't cool 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.080 in California. But I kind of get along with everybody. 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.360 I was, you know, in high school. I think I 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:52.000 was voted most comical or something like that. Really, so 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.040 you were a good student. I was a very good student. Yeah, 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:58.120 and you did because parental pressure. You were just good, 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.200 or you were grind or all of those things. Wasn't 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:04.080 a grind? I just I was good at school, okay? 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.799 And you're you have the one sister, correct, two sisters, 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:11.160 two sisters, okay, and their daughters are super successful. Right, 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.360 but it's starting at this level. You're in the middle, 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:16.880 or where are you? I'm the oldest, you're the oldest. Now. 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:19.240 The next one is Vicky, who's an m d. Yeah, 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:22.280 she's a doctor. And the one after that Susan, she's 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:26.960 a journalism professor. She's um currently on sabbatical because she 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:29.440 was in the middle of writing a book about college admissions. 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.280 So she became the poster child for all the New 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:35.360 York Times and l A Times. They all interviewed her 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:38.640 because she was writing about this, and she's now taking 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:40.440 sabbatical to finish her book that she was in the 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:42.880 middle of when the scandal hit. Well, in terms, you 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.880 were talking about the generation after being super successful by 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.960 baby boomer standards, everybody in the family really rang the bell. 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.560 What was the drive was that, you know, the parental ethos? 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.400 Why do you think everybody was so successful? I don't know. 0:07:55.480 --> 0:08:00.640 I think basically, I think my mother was probably pretty 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:04.280 much uh, a driver. My dad wasn't so much, but 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:08.680 he expected us to get good grades. And I remember, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:13.800 I remember when one semester I came in with my grades. 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.520 I had all a's and I had four unsatisfactories and 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.360 conducts six. I used to just tell jokes in class 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.360 and and so my dad just started yelling at me, going, 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:25.760 anybody can get as it's the conduct that matters, and 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.720 you're failing. And so anyway, that was did you, uh 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.880 those conduct grades go back up? Yeah? I mean again, 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:36.359 I wasn't particular. I was sort of more of a 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.600 comedic foil than I was a troublemaker, you know. And 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:41.559 so you went to the same high school your mother 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.760 taught at I did. Yeah, what was that like? It 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:46.720 was a little weird. I had her for about three 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:48.559 weeks when I first started as a freshman, I was 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:53.000 in her class. And then then they started these um 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.720 I was I don't want to sound equal to etotistical, 0:08:56.840 --> 0:09:00.439 but I was. I was doing super well. I wasn't 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:02.240 very engaged. So they put me in all these advanced 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.920 placement classes and so I had to transferred over class 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:09.280 and do the other classes. Okay and okay, so the 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.440 Beatles hit. Were you a record buyer or just a 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:16.480 radio listener? Um? When at that age, you know, I 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.760 you know, basically buying records was kind of an event. Um. 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.600 I remember I in my sixth grade class, I won 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.280 some award and the teacher gave us some forty five um, 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:29.920 And so I just went home and listened to him 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.400 incessantly because they were all that I had, you know, 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.959 and for what those records were, I will follow him 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.520 by Little Peggy Mark. I think that was one of them. 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:40.520 I can't remember the rest of them. I just heard 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:42.800 that the way. That's a great song. Yeah. I mean 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:44.400 I never would have listened to it if they hadn't 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.520 given it to me, But yeah, that's what I had 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.800 to listen to. Okay. So the Beatles break, you're first 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:52.520 aware of the Beatles by seeing them on Ed Sullivan. 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.839 Yeah okay. And then how does that change your life? Well, 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.120 I you know, it doesn't change my life. I was 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.560 in seventh or eighth grade, so it was like, you know, 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.840 I mean I just became a big fan, and I 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:04.959 by the you know, the little trucks would come by 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.960 with the ice cream and they'd have tops baseball cards, 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.760 except they were Beatles and I bought them, and you know, 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.560 I just it's a fan. I'm not like an intense 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:15.800 super fan. I'm just a you know, I just really 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.960 think that, you know, I'm really into the music, but 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.720 I'm not crazy. I have other things that I do. 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.520 You know, you're about music in general or the beat 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.760 music in general. Okay, I'm a really pretty big Beatles fan, 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.400 but I'm not I'm not going to get confused with 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.640 one of these people that just basically knows everything in 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:35.320 the world about them. Okay, But in terms of music, 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.080 you're saying that you have other musical actury and or 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:41.839 other interests other than law, baseball and music. Yeah, I mean, 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.280 you know, I do you know, I fall sports. You know, 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.800 I'm yeah, I mean, I have other interests, but I'm 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:49.880 you know, I like music a lot. So when did 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:54.280 you start going to concerts? I remember the first sort 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.480 of unofficial concert I went to because I didn't it 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:58.640 wouldn't have been anything I would have chosen to go to. 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.840 Was I worked at a flower shop in Orange County 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.040 and the guy, the owner's son in law, was about 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:07.560 seven years older than I was, and he got tickets 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.360 to Melody Land, which was this theater in the Round 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.480 in Anaheim, right right next to Disneyland. It was hell 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:15.400 about three thousand people. It was a you know, it's 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:16.959 theater in the round that used to have The King 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.680 and I, which I saw there with my mom. And 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:24.640 they had a concert that day with Little Richard, four 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:30.160 Tops and Bo Diddley. So again, not wouldn't have been 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:32.560 my choice of of things that I would go to, 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:34.600 but it was great, and I went to that, and 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:36.120 then I didn't really go to anything on my own 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.839 until until I was like a junior in high school 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.800 and I um and the Doors played the Hollywood Bowl 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.000 and we went and it was funny. We went and 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.959 bought tickets at whatever the equivalent of ticket Master was then, 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.600 which was just this weird box office where you'd buy 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:54.040 tickets and there you had a choice, and I, you know, 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.200 I've never been to the Hollywood Bowl and and I 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.160 have a funny story about that, but I've never been 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.720 to the Hollywood bowls. So they had tickets available for 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.679 five dollars in the first row behind the Garden Terrorist 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:07.640 or whatever it's called. There were five bucks and the 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:11.120 ones in front we're six dollars. So we made a 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:13.960 conscious decision. We got the five dollar tickets because they 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:16.880 just one roll back and and uh we went and 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:21.080 saw the Doors, Um Stepping Wolf and the Chambers Brothers. 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:23.400 That was one bill. That was one bill. It's the 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:27.200 famous show what they have on the movie about the doors. 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:32.720 And and again I think that my theory is, you 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.320 know when people hold up lighters for encores, I think 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.360 it was invented at this show because the show was 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.160 on I believe the fifth of July, and everybody had 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.280 sparkers left over for from fourth of July, and so 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.440 after the show the set ended, they put up the 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.640 sparklers for light my fire. And I think that was 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.200 probably if you go before that, I probably don't think 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.840 you're gonna find anybody putting up lighters. And everybody was 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:57.040 holding them up for light my fire. Now, I never 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.960 I've seen the Chambers brothers. I got squeezed on Boss 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.199 and Garden. That's why never there's a crowd. I'm weary now. 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.480 But how were the Doors? I never saw him? They were, Well, 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.079 it's funny. I later got to be pretty friendly with 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.640 Robbie Krieger and uh, and it was really weird. I mean, 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:15.319 you know, the show was I mean for me, you know, 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.680 I was a kid that was great, but there was 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.320 generally some kind of issue. And Jim walked off stage 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:22.480 and disappeared for a while, and they brought him back 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.360 out and he was rambling and stuff. But again, you know, 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.520 that's what they do. I mean, you know, Lee, listen 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.720 to some of those uh songs, like the end and 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.920 stuff like that, there's a lot of rambling. And Robbie said, yeah, 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.440 Jim dropped acid right before the show, and by the 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:37.480 end of the show he was just tripping beyond belief. 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:40.920 You know, I'm sitting in the audience. And the funny thing, too, 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.000 is in the in the movie version of it. In 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:46.360 the Doors movie, they have all these women, you know, 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:48.520 these naked women dancing on the side. I believe I 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:50.360 was fifteen years old. If there had been naked women there, 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.280 I would exactly not that way. So how did you 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.280 get from Orange County to the Hollywood? Well, my friend, Uh, 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.400 I had a friend who had a microbust and right, 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.840 and uh it relates to Anto the other story I 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.360 was referring to. So we wanted as microbus to the 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:12.160 Hollywood ball. Then that summer we went to we decided 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:14.040 to drive up and see if we could find the Beatles. 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.480 We went up to Capitol Records and as microbus right, 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.680 and we show up at the Capitol Tower and we 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.120 don't know anything or kids, right, so we start wanting 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:28.360 around the tower looking for the Beatles, who weren't there obviously, 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:30.760 and then we thought maybe the doors with the studio 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.640 and Studio A at Capitol It's like it's on the 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:35.280 same floor as you enter, and so we sort of 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:36.960 wandered there in the guard said, well, you can't go here, 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.360 and we're looking for the doors, you know they're not here. 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:41.320 So then we got in the elevator and we went 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.960 up to the it's still the thirteen floor, but they 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.720 don't call it that um and we started wandering around 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:48.800 all the executive office, like me and two of my friends, 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:50.560 and my one friend kept going, you know how many 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:52.640 groups are on a record, There's just one long group 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.680 and it's harassing all these executives. And nobody threw us out, 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.160 nobody did anything, and we then we left and never 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:01.800 found the Beatles. Well that's something that could not happen 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.080 in today's security world. I couldn't even get into this building. 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:08.800 We can't get anywhere. We have silly security everywhere. So 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:11.760 you saw the door. Any other memorable concerts in your 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.440 high school era, Well that was about it for my 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.320 high school era. I was, you know, I went in 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.400 Orange County. I was pretty sheltered. I wasn't like l 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.240 A kids, you know, so I didn't really start going 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.000 to shows until I went to college. Okay, so you 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.960 went to college. You went to Harvey Mud, Right, how 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.560 long had Harvey Mud been in existence when you went 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:35.280 started in fifty seven? I started there in sixty eight. 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:36.960 I guess, well that must have been I mean, granted 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:38.880 you're living in the area, but in the East Coast 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.200 where the school has been open for hundreds of years, 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.640 it seems Why did you end up going to Harvey Mud? Um, 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:50.880 no clear plan. I actually went and visited some schools. 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.200 We went up to Mount Baldi to you know, slide 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.680 in the snow and sledge on the way back. My 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:58.760 mom said, why don't we visit these colleges? And it 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.680 was kind of pretty. And then the other one I 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:03.560 went to was Occidental, And you know, I applied to 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.400 all the u c s and so I decided I 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.200 was either you go to Occidental and Major and political 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:10.960 science to go to Harvey Mudd and major and maths. 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.080 So you can tell how focused I was on my 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.440 career and at the end I ended up going to 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.000 Harvey Mudd. My sister went to Occidental with Barack Obama, 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.560 but really she knew him, Yeah, she knew. What did 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:22.680 she say about him? She said, I didn't know him well, 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:23.840 and people go, how do you know you know him? 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.800 She goes, there are eight black people in Occidental. You 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.640 know Harry Mudd? There were there was one, so you 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.920 know at the time, okay he was bury Obama. I think, 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.040 yeah he was, but he was very Obama. Okay, so 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.920 there were there five Clearmont colleges. How many people went 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.800 to Harvey Mud the time I went there four And 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.160 that's men and women are just men. It was men, 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:47.000 and I don't want to say anything in correct politically incorrect, 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.240 but yes, there was men and women. There were There 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.440 were only about i'd say eight women at Harvey Mud. 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.600 It's gotten almost fifty fifty now, but at the time, 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:57.840 you know, it's a science and engineering school, and girls 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.680 from the fifties didn't really do science and engineering. That's changed, 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:03.680 but at the time there just weren't very many women there, 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:06.000 but you know, again, there were women at Scripts across 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:07.639 the street, and there were women at Pitzer across the 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:09.640 other street. And there was you know, co ed down 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:11.800 to Pomona, and there was a men's college at Claremont. 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.119 So that was fine. It was It was an incredibly 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.800 great atmosphere. Just Claremont McKenna was men only. Then it 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.880 was called Claremont Men's College. Really yeah, they they changed 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.680 the name to Claremont McKenna when they started admitting women. God, 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.680 because I always wondered, what was Claremont McKenna. Okay, so 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.080 what is your experience going to college? They wanted to 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:33.840 keep the M so it was still CMC and McKenna 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.879 was a big donator, A donor a donator. Excuse me, 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.720 So what was your college experience like? Were you basically 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.040 studying where you're partying? What were you doing? You don't 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:44.720 you don't party at Harvy Mode if you want to 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.640 stay there. You know, incredibly smart people there, and it's 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:52.520 like ridiculous, Um, you know, I mean basically, you know, 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:54.880 I mean again it's college, you don't study all the time. 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.240 But if you know, it was I remember my saw 0:17:57.440 --> 0:17:59.400 my junior year. I'll tell you what my classes where 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.000 if I can remember right, had topology, which is not 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.360 what you think of topology. It's like this advanced math. 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:13.080 I was doing quantum physics French lit uh um partial 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:18.200 differential equations, and then some physics class and quantum mechanics 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:22.480 are quantum something. So those are my five classes. It 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:26.520 was pretty intense. And how if there were four people 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:29.080 there was one hundred unior class. There were seventy five 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.919 in my classic class. Where were you in that class? 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:33.800 Not that it really matters, well, they were like I 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:35.640 was a math major, so there were like fifteen math 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.400 majors and I was kind of in the middle. Um. 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:40.520 But this is what convinced me that I was never 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.240 going to be a mathematician. Is that the year that 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:47.560 my senior year UM, which was what year seventy two, 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.240 I was a year ahead. I was skipped a grades. 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.639 So I kindergarten. I just went right. I went right 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:58.680 in the first grade when I was five or some so. UM. 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:03.280 So in my senior year they take you take the 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:08.679 NSF I mean, uh whatever you call them, the the 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.480 g r E s and there's a testing end too. 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:13.879 They then they evaluate the g r S and some 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:15.240 other factors. I don't know what they do, but they 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:20.960 hand out, um, they hand out thirty NSF fellowships for 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:26.520 grad school and six National Science Science Foundation and sixty 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:28.800 At the time, there was sixty or so runners up. 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.880 So this was in the math and the math part. 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:37.040 So out of the thirty people got the Math NSF fellowships, 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:38.879 two of them were in my class. And out of 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:40.840 the sixty runners up, four of them in my class. 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.239 So the six of the fifteen math majors were like, 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.160 they were ridiculous. So I said, you know, I don't know. 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:52.320 You know, again, I was fine, I was I wasn't great. 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.080 I was fine. But math people, when they there's just 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.600 guys that are just some different level, they just you know, 0:19:57.720 --> 0:19:59.760 and uh, we had a couple of those, I mean 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:02.840 they when I went on to prove a very important 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:04.720 theory and he didn't prove it. He did the set 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.879 up to the guy that proved it was the I 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.200 think it was four days last theory. I'm the four 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:12.160 color theory. One one of those one of those sort 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.520 of stating I won't borrow anybody with this, but it 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.200 was a four hundred year old problem. That he actually 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:21.320 helps solve. So anyway, I was out of my league 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.800 there and uh so, anyway, but you went to graduate school. 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.280 There's a reason for that. So I go to Harvey 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.680 Mud and I'm gonna graduating class of seventy people or 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:38.560 seventy seven or whatever it was. And um, I decided, 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:40.760 I'm I'm you know, these guys are too smart for me. 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:42.399 So I'm gonna go to law school. So I go 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:44.600 down to Pomona to take the L s a T. 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.920 I show up at Pomona. I have not read the materials. 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.240 I haven't done anything. And I show up and they go, 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.119 where's your idea? And I go, it's back at the 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:55.760 dorm and they go, well, you need your idea? I go, 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.159 why you know people cheat on this test? I go, 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.159 what nobody's taking this asked in my class except for me? 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:03.639 And they go, no, you can need your I d so, 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:05.600 but we'll wait for you. So I'd go bicycle back 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:07.800 up to my dorm room, come back and they're about 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:09.600 three quarters of the way through the instructions, which I 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.520 have never read. And you know, people are taking L 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:14.680 s a T prep courses and they're all getting ready 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:17.280 for you know, the day and I basically opened the 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:19.040 thing and see it for the first time as I'm 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.879 sitting there. So I took the test. I didn't actually okay, 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:27.919 not great, but okay, six forty or something okay, And 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:31.520 so I got into some schools, but not really anything 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.800 that I wanted to do. And so I all my friends, 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:37.960 meanwhile are getting these massive for the time fellowships to 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:41.560 do grad school because they're geniuses. So I go, well, okay, 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:43.359 everybody's getting all this money to go to grad school, 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:46.200 maybe I'll do that. So, like here we are, basically 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:50.400 the spring of seventy two, after everybody's done all their applications, 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:54.480 I applied to a bunch of grad schools um and 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:56.880 my only criteria for the grad schools is that there's 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.480 no application fee. So I just applied to the which 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:01.760 they had at the time. So I paid no application fee, 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:04.280 and I applied to seven grad schools and got into 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:05.960 a bunch of them, and they gave me. The biggest 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:10.240 fellowship I got was Hawaii. I just basically I basically 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:13.080 based my city. I based my decision on who they 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.159 paid me the most. So I went to Hawaii. HA 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:19.479 never been to Hawaii, and so I did that and 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.199 then yeah, so that's what I did. So okay, and 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:24.280 so you did that was one year? Well, I was 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:26.720 supposed to be two years. But remember I went to 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:30.080 a college full of geniuses. I tested out. I had 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:32.440 nine graduate units. I tested out of everything. I mean, 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:35.080 the people in Hawaii, God loved them. They have every 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:37.440 The professors were really smart because a lot of old, 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:41.719 really smart mathematicians retired there essentially. Um. But so I 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:45.560 tested out of everything. I got my masters in a year. Um, 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:47.919 and I took the l s C T again and 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:50.359 I did really well and got into pretty much everywhere 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:53.520 I wanted to go. So so you so you had 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:55.679 never had an intention when you're going to White to 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:59.520 actually practice in the math area. They were too smart. 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:02.080 So you just said, I'll do this and I'll apply 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:04.040 to law school. I got paid money. It was great. 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:05.960 I got to earn some money, and I got to 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:08.720 spend a year in Hawaii. It was kind of good. Okay, 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:10.320 So you take the L s A T again and 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:12.280 you ultimately decided to go to U C. L A. 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:16.359 Y Um. Well, I wanted to go to Berkeley because 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:18.560 my friend was in My best friend was in the 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:21.600 physics department there. Uh, he was a year behind me. 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:23.520 He had gotten while I was going to grad school. 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:26.680 He when he got in the physics department at Berkeley. 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:30.639 But I got wait listed, and so I actually had 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:34.159 a I had a bunch of fun correspondence with the 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:37.080 Berkeley admissions office. They waitlisted me, and I wrote them 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:40.280 back and said, thank you very much for wait listening. Uh, 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:41.960 could you let me know what's going on? And they didn't, 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:44.280 and so then they finally rejected me, and I wrote 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:47.200 back and said, well, I reject your rejection, and could 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:49.119 you give me information on the dorms. I'll be showing 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:51.000 up on such and such a day. And they wrote 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:52.960 back and said, we can't give your innovation on the doors. 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:55.960 You're not accepted dorms. And I go and then I 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:57.680 write back something like I need a place to live 0:23:57.680 --> 0:23:59.200 while I'm going to school there, and they right back, 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:01.320 You're not going to school here. And the funny thing 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:04.560 was is a dean of admissions at Bolt Berkeley Law 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:09.200 School was named Sarah Tomato. So so in my final letter, 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:12.199 I took a Heinz catchup bottle, cut the little tomato 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:14.320 out and said dear ms, and put the Tomato in 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:16.720 there and wrote a one final letter. And you know, 0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:21.360 obviously I didn't go there, but I did get into 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:23.200 U c l A and a bunch of other people places. 0:24:23.240 --> 0:24:24.960 So I went to u c l A. And that 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:28.240 good experience. Going to law school bad experience. It's law school. 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:30.439 You went to law school. Yeah, I mean, I had 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.680 a similar experience at law school that, uh my college 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:37.639 was so rigorous that law school. The other thing is, 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:40.040 you know two things Richard Nixon said nothing. I want 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:41.800 to quote Richard Nixon. The only thing you need to 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:46.720 get through law school is a lead butt. And I'm convinced, 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:49.600 if you're a smart person, you apply yourself, you could 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:51.399 take the bar review course and never go to law 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:53.760 school and pass the bar. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, 0:24:53.760 --> 0:24:57.000 I think the experiences probably helps, because I I didn't. 0:24:57.640 --> 0:24:59.159 I walked into law school in the first day, I 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:01.920 looked around and saw the Polly sign majors from cal State. 0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:05.200 I went, finally, I'm smarter than somebody was in college. 0:25:05.240 --> 0:25:09.040 I wasn't, and I didn't really. The other thing that 0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:11.760 I did in law school was I hadn't I hadn't 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:14.040 taken really a test in two or three years because 0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:16.359 in math, what they do is they just give you 0:25:16.600 --> 0:25:18.639 a theorem and they said, go home and prove this. 0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:21.119 You know, I didn't sit there and study for a final. 0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:23.920 Either were able to do the you able to apply 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:27.399 what you learned to uh proving the theorem, or you weren't. 0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:30.439 So I hadn't taken a test in at least two 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:32.280 years and probably more like three years, and I just 0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:35.200 went finals. This was it was painful. So like my 0:25:35.200 --> 0:25:37.960 first year of law school, I didn't really I did 0:25:38.000 --> 0:25:40.480 okay and do great, and then about the first quarter 0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:42.320 my second year, I figured it out. I figured law 0:25:42.320 --> 0:25:44.159 school out, and then I just cruised the rest of 0:25:44.200 --> 0:25:46.879 the time. We got all a's from then on out. Okay, 0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:48.879 So you graduate from law school and your intention is 0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:54.320 to do what well again, uh, keeping it with my personality, 0:25:54.400 --> 0:25:56.520 my intention was not to work for the man. I 0:25:56.560 --> 0:25:59.560 mean not not No, that's not right, that's incorrect. I 0:25:59.600 --> 0:26:02.080 didn't to work for a big corp. I didn't want 0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:03.720 to work for a big corporate law firm. I had 0:26:04.720 --> 0:26:07.080 most people interned or summer clerk at you know, the 0:26:07.080 --> 0:26:10.600 big firms. My first year I clerk at the Department 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:13.760 of Housing and Urban Development. My second year, UM, I 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:16.840 did the State Energy Commission, which is where I started 0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:20.160 realizing how sort of bad the government is. I mean 0:26:20.480 --> 0:26:25.760 just bureaucratic, and it was regulatory stuff. I started getting 0:26:25.760 --> 0:26:31.040 my economic views from working at the State Energy Department. UM. 0:26:31.160 --> 0:26:33.480 So my third year I didn't really know what I 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:36.200 wanted to do. I because everybody was interviewing with firms 0:26:36.280 --> 0:26:40.359 for jobs. I I decided I do some interviews. And 0:26:40.400 --> 0:26:42.320 I interviewed with a big firm. It might have been 0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:45.159 Greenberg Gluscre, which is four flow floors below was it 0:26:45.240 --> 0:26:49.479 might not have been, And so I did my one interview. 0:26:49.600 --> 0:26:50.879 I did a few, but I did this one and 0:26:50.920 --> 0:26:53.840 the guy says to me, Um, you know, he's going, well, 0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:56.879 what have you done that you know that extra curlercular 0:26:56.880 --> 0:26:59.560 activities that would help qualify you for career as a lawyer? 0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:02.600 And I go, well, I ran the speakers program at 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:04.879 U c l A. I was on the pub board 0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:09.280 at the Daily Brune. I was the president of the 0:27:09.320 --> 0:27:11.960 Student Bar Association. I did you know, I did the 0:27:11.960 --> 0:27:14.080 fair amount of stuff and I was on the communications 0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:18.399 bought board, And they go, yeah, but more sort of 0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:22.000 intellectual scholarly stuff. Well, I did you know, I don't remember. 0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:23.480 I was telling him some more stuff. I knew exactly 0:27:23.520 --> 0:27:25.000 what was getting at, and he says, why aren't thinking 0:27:25.000 --> 0:27:27.919 more of something like law review? And I go, Honestly, 0:27:27.960 --> 0:27:29.720 those guys were the biggest dicks in the school and 0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:33.200 and I had really no interest in doing that. He guess, well, 0:27:33.240 --> 0:27:35.360 I was the editor of the U c l A 0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:38.479 nine six. I got, well, that's your problem then, isn't it. 0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:40.320 And then I you know, they didn't have email, but 0:27:40.359 --> 0:27:43.960 I they messengered the rejection to my house. So so 0:27:44.080 --> 0:27:48.560 I my career trying to be a big firm lawyer 0:27:48.680 --> 0:27:51.959 was not met with an initial round of success. So 0:27:53.040 --> 0:27:54.680 I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't 0:27:54.680 --> 0:27:57.640 really have a great idea. So I took the bar 0:27:57.760 --> 0:28:00.040 and sat around, and I said, no, there was a 0:28:00.040 --> 0:28:01.719 book that out set us how to start your own 0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:03.480 law firm. So I read the book, and I'll start 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:06.600 my own law firm. So me and a classmate from 0:28:07.480 --> 0:28:09.399 u c l A started a little law firm and 0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:12.120 we started doing whatever walked in the door. I had 0:28:12.160 --> 0:28:15.399 p I did personal injury, I did h wills and trust, 0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:19.320 I did everything I did litigation, I did whatever came 0:28:19.359 --> 0:28:23.520 in and um, I did that, and I started realizing 0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:25.480 all the things that I didn't want to do, which 0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:28.199 is pretty much everything I was doing. And this is 0:28:28.200 --> 0:28:32.480 gonna sound really yeah, I don't care. I'm I'm old 0:28:32.520 --> 0:28:36.880 now anyway, But poor people tend to have not very 0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:40.720 interesting problems. I mean, you know, you know, it's like 0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:44.160 a dog bite case or you know something, and so 0:28:44.280 --> 0:28:46.880 the case, you know, I was taking whatever walked in 0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:52.719 the door, and it was somewhat not that interesting, you know. Um, 0:28:53.080 --> 0:28:54.760 but I am. I did a good job for everybody, 0:28:54.760 --> 0:28:56.920 so that wasn't that. I mean, I was a young lawyer, 0:28:56.920 --> 0:28:59.719 so I was learning stuff, but I didn't really love it. 0:28:59.840 --> 0:29:04.720 And then, uh, Howard King, my partner, um had gone 0:29:04.760 --> 0:29:06.240 to law school with me, that he was a year 0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:09.200 behind me, and he calls up one day and says, 0:29:10.720 --> 0:29:12.200 if you know somebody who wants a job being a 0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:13.960 music lawyer is going to be an opening on Friday. 0:29:13.960 --> 0:29:17.640 I hate this bitch that I'm working for. The bitch 0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:19.920 actually happened to be a friend of mine. She's I 0:29:19.920 --> 0:29:22.680 had gone to law school with her also, so I go, well, yeah, 0:29:22.800 --> 0:29:24.240 music law, that sounds a lot more fun than what 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:28.120 I'm doing so I applied. It was at Manatt Phelps. 0:29:28.360 --> 0:29:30.480 He was at Manatt Phelps. I was on my own 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:33.680 and I applied to Manatt Phelps and uh, you know, 0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:36.760 after a couple of months, they interviewed me and they 0:29:36.800 --> 0:29:39.360 may be an offer to go work in the music department. 0:29:39.400 --> 0:29:47.360 So that's how I ended up doing that. Okay, what 0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:50.840 was your experiencing that? It was good? I enjoyed it. 0:29:50.880 --> 0:29:54.120 I was there for about ten years, and uh, you know, 0:29:54.200 --> 0:29:57.200 I started out working for Lee Phillips and servicing a 0:29:57.200 --> 0:29:58.960 lot of his clients, and he had great clients. It 0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:00.600 was all the people I wanted to work with. I mean, 0:30:00.600 --> 0:30:01.959 it was really exciting to me that I was going 0:30:02.000 --> 0:30:05.240 to go to a firm that represented Linda Ronstad and 0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:09.640 Neil Young and you know, and um Jackson Brown and 0:30:09.720 --> 0:30:11.920 the Eagles were not really so much the Eagles, but 0:30:12.040 --> 0:30:14.960 the label that they represented electro Psylum Records, so they 0:30:15.560 --> 0:30:18.280 had you know, the interface with you know what. Actually 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:20.080 that wasn't the label that you know, I paid attention 0:30:20.120 --> 0:30:22.880 to labels. I loved a lot of their artists, and 0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:25.440 it was a super political firm to which I thought 0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:28.320 I was interested in a certain soon disabused of that notion, 0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:31.080 but because at the time was Manatt felt Rothenberg and 0:30:31.120 --> 0:30:33.719 Tuney and John Tunney had been his dad had been 0:30:33.720 --> 0:30:35.360 a big boxer and he had been a senator from 0:30:35.360 --> 0:30:38.280 the state of California. So it was very and Chuck 0:30:38.320 --> 0:30:40.200 man At had been the head of the Democratic Party 0:30:40.200 --> 0:30:43.360 that a few years before I got there, so it 0:30:43.440 --> 0:30:46.000 seemed very exciting to me, and it wasn't. It was great. 0:30:46.040 --> 0:30:47.960 I mean I had a good time. You know, they 0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:51.000 didn't pay me, but it was fun. So the next 0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:54.520 step was Hollywood Records. Yeah, well before you get there, though, 0:30:54.840 --> 0:30:58.440 you were you're like an incredible rainmaker. Okay, you have 0:30:58.480 --> 0:31:00.840 a relationship with all the clients. Did you learn that 0:31:00.880 --> 0:31:05.080 at Manatt Phelps? Well, no, I probably, I don't know 0:31:05.120 --> 0:31:06.640 if I learned it. Ever. I think it's just sort 0:31:06.640 --> 0:31:08.320 of an eight. But I mean I got clients and 0:31:08.400 --> 0:31:10.120 my little stupid law firm when I was just me 0:31:10.200 --> 0:31:12.320 and a friend. You know, it just they just were 0:31:12.440 --> 0:31:15.960 not you know they used to at Manat used ago 0:31:15.960 --> 0:31:17.880 this goofy guy. Why should we pay him? I mean, 0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:20.040 he's the only reason he gets clients because in the 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:21.760 music business. And I want to know, if I were 0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:23.920 a corporate lawyer, I'd have clients because that's what I do. 0:31:24.040 --> 0:31:26.840 I mean, I figure out how to solve problems and 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:30.200 succeed at what I do. But so I don't know, 0:31:30.520 --> 0:31:33.560 you know, you just I'm gonna service business. I can 0:31:33.600 --> 0:31:35.680 service people. I mean, okay, when you opened up your 0:31:35.720 --> 0:31:37.960 you know, hung out your shingle, as they say, how 0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:41.080 did you get clients? Then you know, I just you know, invite. 0:31:41.120 --> 0:31:42.840 We had a party. You invited a bunch of people, 0:31:42.880 --> 0:31:44.800 and I let it know, you knowing that we were open, 0:31:44.880 --> 0:31:47.880 and you know, people would start referring their brothers and 0:31:47.960 --> 0:31:50.120 their fathers and stuff, and you know, I do whatever 0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:51.840 came in the door, and I was willing to learn 0:31:51.920 --> 0:31:54.800 whatever it was. It was actually fairly good training for 0:31:54.880 --> 0:31:59.120 being a music lawyer, because music musicians have all these 0:31:59.160 --> 0:32:02.280 problems and they think of you as their lawyer. So 0:32:02.560 --> 0:32:05.200 if they have a family law problem, they want, you know, 0:32:05.200 --> 0:32:06.880 they call you. They don't call a family they don't 0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:09.040 know anybody. Or they have a tax problem, they call you. 0:32:09.640 --> 0:32:11.360 And so it was very useful to me to have 0:32:11.400 --> 0:32:14.880 done all these different disciplines because I actually can sort 0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:17.320 of fake my way through pretty much anything. Right now, 0:32:18.480 --> 0:32:20.200 at least long enough to get up to somebody who 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:22.000 really knows what they're talking about. Okay, So, now, in 0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:24.640 your ten years at Manette, where do you feel you 0:32:24.680 --> 0:32:28.280 are in the hierarchy of music lawyers. Well, it was 0:32:28.320 --> 0:32:32.680 really really kind of funny. Actually, um I remember was 0:32:32.720 --> 0:32:34.560 it then? And I think it was sort of the 0:32:34.640 --> 0:32:37.600 end of my tenure at Manette. Remember this big article 0:32:37.720 --> 0:32:41.560 on all the new hot young lawyers that they've done 0:32:41.600 --> 0:32:43.720 in one of the periodicals, And I'm looking at, you know, 0:32:43.760 --> 0:32:46.360 the new hot young lawyers. I'm going And the reason 0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:47.880 I wasn't in that because I wasn't a new hot 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:50.200 young lawyer. I was an established lawyer. By that, they're 0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:52.440 all older than I am. They're all older and I 0:32:52.480 --> 0:32:55.640 won't mention any names, but going, well, she's older than 0:32:55.680 --> 0:32:57.239 I am, and he's older than I am. Why am 0:32:57.240 --> 0:32:58.960 I not hot? In New York? You're not a hot 0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:04.040 new lawyer because you're an established lawyer. So okay, And 0:33:04.320 --> 0:33:06.760 at the time, you were basically doing contracts. What kind 0:33:06.760 --> 0:33:09.000 of work were you doing about I mean basically yeah, 0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:10.840 I mean, you know what you do as a music lawyer. 0:33:10.840 --> 0:33:14.200 Back in the day, the practice was I mean largely 0:33:14.280 --> 0:33:18.120 not entirely, but doing record contracts, doing publishing contracts. You know, 0:33:18.680 --> 0:33:23.320 I actually, um, one of my heroes was David Geffen, 0:33:23.440 --> 0:33:25.120 and he was a client of the firm, and so 0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:27.920 when I'd been there maybe a year and a half, 0:33:29.080 --> 0:33:31.200 he started Geffen Records, and I went to Lee Phillips 0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:33.240 and said, I'd like to work on this. You know, 0:33:33.280 --> 0:33:35.280 I was second year lawyer, and I go, I want 0:33:35.280 --> 0:33:37.840 to work on this. And so one of the things 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:40.000 I did from my first two or three years was 0:33:40.120 --> 0:33:43.520 just the paperwork for Gethin Records. I the agreement that 0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:47.880 formed record Gethin Records was written by me ages entirely 0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:50.840 by me. Um. You know, by the end of it, 0:33:50.880 --> 0:33:54.320 nobody was reading it. You know, I was more scrivener 0:33:54.360 --> 0:33:56.280 than a dealmaker. But they'd make the deal and I'd 0:33:56.320 --> 0:33:58.880 sort of translated and tell them, well, wait, you can't 0:33:58.880 --> 0:34:00.640 do this. You can't do this. He can do this, 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:04.000 and so you know, so you know, it was that 0:34:04.160 --> 0:34:07.280 I did the you know, and and uh and then 0:34:07.360 --> 0:34:10.200 just a lot of record contracts, you know, touring contracts, 0:34:10.239 --> 0:34:13.560 whatever you do when you represent talent. Okay, and who 0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:16.239 were the main competitive lawyers or law firms at that 0:34:16.280 --> 0:34:20.120 time at the time. Well, it was always John Branca, 0:34:20.400 --> 0:34:25.160 Don Passman, Krugman Um. You know, I missed out on 0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:26.840 Bruce Springsteen as a client because he lived in the 0:34:26.880 --> 0:34:29.800 East Coast. I did the first management agreement for John Landau. 0:34:30.040 --> 0:34:31.920 Well at least that's what John told me. Maybe he's 0:34:31.920 --> 0:34:35.000 been we have management agree with him in Springsteen. Yeah, 0:34:35.080 --> 0:34:37.600 I wrote the management agreement and John tells me that 0:34:37.640 --> 0:34:39.719 to this day it's it's a one page agreement or 0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:41.760 two page agreement. And I think to this day Bruce 0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:44.560 signs it every three years. Well, how did you know, 0:34:44.640 --> 0:34:46.359 how did that come together? How do you know John 0:34:46.360 --> 0:34:49.640 who lived on the East Coast. I think remember the 0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:52.440 bitch that I told you about, Debbie Reinberg, who was 0:34:52.480 --> 0:34:54.440 not She's really a nice person. She was number one 0:34:54.480 --> 0:34:57.520 in my class. She knew John for some reason because 0:34:57.520 --> 0:34:59.200 I think she was a big Bruce Springsteen fan and 0:34:59.239 --> 0:35:02.360 she you know, we we did the work for Electra 0:35:02.480 --> 0:35:05.000 Sylum Records, and we did the work for RSL Records, 0:35:05.000 --> 0:35:07.640 so we we represented a bunch of record executives, so 0:35:07.680 --> 0:35:10.320 there was some I don't remember how she knew John, 0:35:10.360 --> 0:35:12.319 but she ended up I ended up meeting John. I 0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:16.359 think through her Okay, she had gone in house at 0:35:16.360 --> 0:35:19.440 a lecture by then. I think, so was she today. 0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:21.200 I think she might be retired. I haven't talked to 0:35:21.239 --> 0:35:23.320 her in a while, but I think she might be retiring. 0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:29.839 So um, in any event, tell the story of how 0:35:29.840 --> 0:35:33.480 you end up getting the job at Hollywood Records. Okay, 0:35:33.520 --> 0:35:37.759 so um, somebody else show may name less and I 0:35:37.840 --> 0:35:42.160 will may name us because we're not friendly. Um, i'll 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:45.719 tell you off the record. Um. But anyway, they were 0:35:45.760 --> 0:35:47.839 looking for somebody to start their record company and this 0:35:47.880 --> 0:35:53.720 guy was working in house there and he told Michael 0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:57.400 Eisner about me. So, um, this is the person you 0:35:57.440 --> 0:36:00.360 don't have a positive opinion of. Yeah, I mean you know, 0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:01.920 there were other people that told him to I think 0:36:01.920 --> 0:36:05.400 you'd heard. I think it was him and other people. 0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:10.400 So what happened was I was in New York, um 0:36:10.480 --> 0:36:12.840 with Chris black Blow because I represent a Delicious Vinyl 0:36:13.719 --> 0:36:15.920 and we were doing a deal with Island Records with 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:18.120 Chris Blackwell, and I get a call from my you know, 0:36:18.160 --> 0:36:20.480 I called into my office. See anybody call in and 0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:25.000 she goes. Assistant goes, um, yeah, you got a call 0:36:25.000 --> 0:36:28.520 from Michael Eisener. I go, yeah, sure, I go, yeah, right, 0:36:28.560 --> 0:36:30.520 Michael eis was calling me. She goes, no, really, I 0:36:30.520 --> 0:36:34.360 go really because I didn't know Michael Eisener. So I 0:36:34.400 --> 0:36:37.520 called Michael Eiser back and he goes, uh, I've been 0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:39.759 hearing things about you. We're starting a record label. We'd 0:36:39.800 --> 0:36:41.200 like to talk to you about it. And I go, oh, 0:36:41.239 --> 0:36:43.160 to be the lawyer. He goes, yeah, or maybe to 0:36:43.440 --> 0:36:45.520 you know, run it. He said. So he said you 0:36:45.520 --> 0:36:48.200 want to meet and I go yeah, sure, and I 0:36:48.239 --> 0:36:50.319 go he goes, how about tomorrow. I go, I'm in 0:36:50.320 --> 0:36:52.400 New York. And when you're back tomorrow, it says how 0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:55.040 about the next day? And I go okay, fine, And 0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:59.840 so I met with him and UM, now you earlier 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:01.879 say you're not good with the man, So how did 0:37:01.920 --> 0:37:04.360 that meeting go? Well, I told you I corrected that. 0:37:04.560 --> 0:37:06.160 It wasn't that I wasn't good with the man. I'm 0:37:06.360 --> 0:37:09.000 I'm bad with authority. And the meeting went fine. I mean, 0:37:09.000 --> 0:37:11.200 michaeliss is a great guy. I mean he's very personable, 0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:14.920 he's super smart. Um, so the meeting went fine. And 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:16.719 the really funny thing was we were walking out and 0:37:16.760 --> 0:37:18.279 I said, it was nice to meet you. As you know, 0:37:18.360 --> 0:37:20.879 you're obviously a legend and it was great meeting. I'm 0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:22.759 parked on the street. I don't like Valet, and he goes, 0:37:22.840 --> 0:37:26.520 neither do I. I'm parked on the street too. That's 0:37:26.600 --> 0:37:30.319 hysterical because I've had my car. You know, I had 0:37:30.320 --> 0:37:33.239 an accident in Valet parking. I do my best thought 0:37:33.280 --> 0:37:36.000 because you can't collect. I mean I did collect it. 0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:39.399 I was tenacious, but it's almost impossible. I just I'd 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:41.560 rather not have to wait for my car. It's really 0:37:41.560 --> 0:37:44.279 as simple as that. So anyway, I met with him. 0:37:44.360 --> 0:37:45.840 Then he liked me, I guess. And he brought me 0:37:45.880 --> 0:37:48.200 in to meet Frank Wells, who was the president of 0:37:48.200 --> 0:37:51.920 the Disney Corporation, and uh, I guess Frank liked me. 0:37:51.960 --> 0:37:55.520 So they aren't being to meet Jeffrey and Jeffrey Jeffrey 0:37:55.560 --> 0:37:59.279 Katzenberg and um. Again, this is from my perspective. I 0:37:59.280 --> 0:38:01.480 don't know jeff him. I have a different perspective. But 0:38:01.800 --> 0:38:04.000 in between one of those meetings, I had a call 0:38:04.040 --> 0:38:06.359 from David Geffen. You know, I've been doing his legal work. 0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:08.480 He said, come over here. I know what's going on. 0:38:08.600 --> 0:38:10.920 You come over here right now. He wanted me to 0:38:10.920 --> 0:38:12.359 come meet with him. So I go to that point 0:38:12.520 --> 0:38:15.800 his office on Sunset Boulevard in the building. Yes, yes, yes, 0:38:16.280 --> 0:38:18.240 So I drive over and we meet for two hours, 0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:20.520 and he tries to convince me. I had asked him 0:38:20.520 --> 0:38:22.320 about six months earlier, because he had been there have 0:38:22.360 --> 0:38:25.239 been talking of him reviving asylum records, and I had 0:38:25.239 --> 0:38:27.000 asked him if it would be, you know, if he'd 0:38:27.000 --> 0:38:28.640 considered me to run, And you go, no, you need 0:38:28.680 --> 0:38:30.759 to get some experience like business affairs, like I don't. 0:38:30.800 --> 0:38:33.160 I don't want to do that. So he calls me 0:38:33.239 --> 0:38:36.239 over and spends two hours trying to convince me not 0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:38.719 to take this job. And he basically says, you know 0:38:38.760 --> 0:38:40.640 why you shouldn't take this job. And you know why 0:38:40.680 --> 0:38:43.239 I'm successful because I do things where my chances with 0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:45.520 success are high and my chances of failure are low. 0:38:45.880 --> 0:38:48.200 Your chances are failure are high, and you shouldn't do this. 0:38:48.239 --> 0:38:50.440 So he tried to convince me to do it, and 0:38:50.560 --> 0:38:53.879 I didn't listen to him. It turns out he was right. 0:38:54.080 --> 0:38:57.680 Um so anyway, so then I met with Katzenberg, and 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:00.759 but also you know, he just focusing. He did say, 0:39:00.800 --> 0:39:03.640 because tell you telling me the story before that you 0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:06.759 needed more seasoning in addition to the odds. Yeah, that's 0:39:06.760 --> 0:39:09.919 what he did. Okay, so he So do you think 0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:12.640 at this point you did need more seasoning or you 0:39:12.719 --> 0:39:15.200 just were in a bad situation. No, I don't think. 0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:18.400 I mean, look, as it turns out, I needed more seasoning, 0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:20.239 but I don't think running business affairs at a record 0:39:20.320 --> 0:39:22.000 label was the season and I need it, you know. 0:39:22.920 --> 0:39:26.319 And and Eisener later told me again it's all you know, 0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:29.240 he considered the source. But he said the reason Geffen 0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:33.080 was so uh so intent and not discouraginging. He didn't 0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:36.040 want you to leave as his lawyer, which I don't 0:39:36.080 --> 0:39:37.400 know how much. I believe he had grew him and 0:39:37.440 --> 0:39:41.319 he had other people, so um so. Anyway, so I 0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:46.160 disobeyed him. And uh again, some of this comes from Eisener, 0:39:46.200 --> 0:39:48.400 some of it comes from what I could see. But 0:39:48.960 --> 0:39:50.960 between him and Jeffrey, they spent four years trying to 0:39:51.000 --> 0:39:54.360 get me fired. Um No, I don't know. It's unfair. 0:39:55.880 --> 0:39:59.919 I didn't they uh As Eiser once said that bas 0:40:00.280 --> 0:40:04.800 I fired myself. I don't agree with him, but um 0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:07.799 you know, there's corporate politics at Disney, and and I 0:40:07.840 --> 0:40:10.600 didn't play that well with the strategic planning people and 0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:13.520 the finance people, and they didn't much like me because 0:40:13.640 --> 0:40:16.480 first time sort of anti authoritarian and I'm sort of 0:40:18.800 --> 0:40:22.680 not sober serious about this stuff. And and the thing 0:40:22.719 --> 0:40:25.799 that really really hated as I understand math, So you know, 0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:28.120 they would have most of the creative execs didn't understand 0:40:28.120 --> 0:40:30.160 what they did well. I understood really well. I'm good 0:40:30.160 --> 0:40:32.960 at math, so I would get in discussions with them 0:40:32.960 --> 0:40:34.840 and they wouldn't like how they went so and I 0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:39.560 was was it was an experience. Okay. So from the 0:40:39.600 --> 0:40:43.440 first meeting with Eisner, you talked about taking the top job. Yeah, 0:40:43.480 --> 0:40:45.400 and again nothing happened, and then he called me about 0:40:45.400 --> 0:40:47.520 a month or two later and said, look, we're still considering, 0:40:47.520 --> 0:40:49.160 you know, like, oh, that's fine. I got a day job. 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:51.840 I know, I mean, you know, because I was conflicted 0:40:51.880 --> 0:40:55.040 about doing it, and especially given I didn't want to 0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:56.799 have geff and mad. I mean, Geffin had been a 0:40:56.800 --> 0:40:58.640 good friend for a year, so I didn't want him 0:40:58.640 --> 0:41:03.040 mad at me. So it was easier if nothing happened. Okay, 0:41:03.040 --> 0:41:05.520 So then how did you Ultimately, ultimately they decided they 0:41:05.560 --> 0:41:07.000 were going to move forward, and they asked me if 0:41:07.000 --> 0:41:09.359 I wanted to take the job, and then I said, yeah, okay, 0:41:09.360 --> 0:41:12.120 what did Minatte say about your leaving? I mean, you know, man, 0:41:12.200 --> 0:41:14.919 that it was great. I left left behind my client base, 0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:16.840 which they took over, and I became a client of 0:41:16.880 --> 0:41:19.000 the firm. I used them for my internal legal work, 0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:22.960 so you know it was great for them. Okay. So 0:41:23.040 --> 0:41:24.840 the first thing you do when you open it was 0:41:24.880 --> 0:41:29.200 it already decided was going to be called Hollywood Records. No. 0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:31.760 I think they decided they had Hollywood films at the time, 0:41:32.480 --> 0:41:34.759 and they decided I don't remember. I think Michael or 0:41:34.840 --> 0:41:37.399 Frank or somebody picked the name. They thought it would 0:41:37.400 --> 0:41:40.040 be good to affiliate it with the film company, the 0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:44.719 studio they had. Um then we, of course there was 0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:46.960 already a Hollywood Records that have been in the fifties. 0:41:47.000 --> 0:41:49.279 We got in a big fight, paid the guy off. 0:41:49.360 --> 0:41:52.480 It was anyway, I didn't pay him much, but whatever 0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:54.759 it was. It's a guy named mole Lettle who was 0:41:55.040 --> 0:41:56.800 It turns out if you go look through your case books, 0:41:56.840 --> 0:41:59.319 he's a fair lititious guy. He would he you know, 0:41:59.360 --> 0:42:01.719 he bought up all those old fifties labels and would 0:42:01.719 --> 0:42:05.239 sue people. You know, it would that, you know, like 0:42:05.280 --> 0:42:10.360 a patentrol today yeah, or or like, um, I'm not 0:42:10.400 --> 0:42:13.759 gonna say, like all the copyright infringement lawyers that bring 0:42:13.800 --> 0:42:16.040 these stupid suits that they shouldn't win and they get 0:42:16.120 --> 0:42:20.960 lucky and win sometimes. Okay, so you got Hollywood's the 0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:23.680 first thing you did at Hollywood record This was funny. 0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:26.279 I remember walking in and I had I was in. 0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:29.200 There was nobody there. I just wanted I walked in 0:42:29.239 --> 0:42:31.440 and go. I guess I had to start a record company. 0:42:31.840 --> 0:42:33.680 I mean really, like I walked in. I was the 0:42:33.680 --> 0:42:37.600 only employee. So I was money and issue do they have? 0:42:37.719 --> 0:42:41.920 Budget was large? Money wasn't an issue, um you know, 0:42:41.960 --> 0:42:43.920 I mean whatever we lost was a pimple in the 0:42:44.000 --> 0:42:47.480 Disney You got enough money to hire or in Yeah, oh, 0:42:47.520 --> 0:42:51.319 no question about it. So, um, I realized, probably the 0:42:51.320 --> 0:42:52.839 first thing I have to do is have to find 0:42:52.840 --> 0:42:55.360 somebody to run the radio department, since back in the 0:42:55.440 --> 0:42:59.680 day the world really dependent on radio. Unless you know, 0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:03.600 well that's funny unless you signed sort of street hip hop, 0:43:03.640 --> 0:43:06.440 which I wanted to sign and did sign actually, which 0:43:06.480 --> 0:43:10.080 did not go over well with Disney people. When I 0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:13.040 got hired. They I did an interview where I said 0:43:13.040 --> 0:43:15.399 I wanted this higher signed hip hop and hard rock 0:43:15.880 --> 0:43:21.319 and so like. Somebuddy organized the campaign to basically send 0:43:21.400 --> 0:43:23.640 letters to Disney saying you've made a horrible mistake. He's 0:43:23.640 --> 0:43:26.360 going to ruin the company. And and I think they 0:43:26.440 --> 0:43:28.160 got three or five thousand letters and they were all 0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:32.000 the same. And you know, so who'd you hire? I 0:43:32.080 --> 0:43:35.280 hired Brendan Romano, Okay, who's still working today at Intersco 0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:38.040 at Interscope. She's great. And what had she done before that? 0:43:38.520 --> 0:43:41.719 She was at PolyGram? I think, I try to hire 0:43:43.000 --> 0:43:46.320 I try to hire Polly Anthony and I couldn't convince 0:43:46.360 --> 0:43:49.000 her to come, but she recommended Brenda Tomin to me. 0:43:49.080 --> 0:43:51.640 She was a number two person and wherever she was PolyGram, 0:43:51.680 --> 0:43:56.319 I think, And she's, you know, unbelievable, she's fabulous, she's okay. 0:43:56.360 --> 0:43:59.319 Who else did you? Oh? I mean that was my 0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:03.480 good hire. I hired a guy named Unfair Transition. I 0:44:03.560 --> 0:44:05.160 was thinking of my marketing guy that I hired that 0:44:05.200 --> 0:44:08.520 it was a mistake. I hired west Hine would run 0:44:08.640 --> 0:44:10.680 Enigma Records, so he'd actually run a label. It was 0:44:10.719 --> 0:44:12.560 an independent label. I hired him to sort of be 0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:16.400 my number two guy, and then hired and our people 0:44:16.440 --> 0:44:19.040 that probably could have done a better job at since 0:44:19.160 --> 0:44:22.600 basically they didn't sign anything that was any good. But yeah, okay, 0:44:22.600 --> 0:44:25.840 the marketing person I'm familiar with what was without mentioning 0:44:25.880 --> 0:44:29.560 his name, what was the problem there? Uh well, I 0:44:29.560 --> 0:44:31.319 mean it's the guy that we hired to replace him. 0:44:31.360 --> 0:44:34.640 When we hired somebody to replace him. He wasn't particularly creative, 0:44:34.680 --> 0:44:37.640 but the trains ran on time, so it was actually 0:44:37.640 --> 0:44:39.600 better having him than the creative guy that I hired 0:44:39.640 --> 0:44:43.359 first that basically just randomly spend money on, you know, 0:44:43.760 --> 0:44:47.960 crazy marketing ideas that we're very creative but not particularly 0:44:48.000 --> 0:44:52.920 economical or successful. Speaking of success, so the two things 0:44:52.920 --> 0:44:55.200 you're noted for in Hollywood Records. You made a deal 0:44:55.239 --> 0:44:58.560 for the Queen catalog and you signed you distributed Dave 0:44:58.600 --> 0:45:01.919 Clark five album which had been off the market. Let's 0:45:01.920 --> 0:45:06.080 start with the Queen albums. Actually it's kind of reverse. 0:45:06.120 --> 0:45:10.080 I didn't sign the Queen count What happened was I 0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:12.239 was that I was a lawyer I told you for 0:45:12.320 --> 0:45:14.480 the outside lawyer for Electure Records, and they were signed 0:45:14.480 --> 0:45:20.520 to Electra Records, and um they were I don't want 0:45:20.520 --> 0:45:23.080 to say dead dead would be an upgrade from where 0:45:23.080 --> 0:45:25.760 they were in America. They were in a really, really 0:45:25.760 --> 0:45:31.919 bad place in America. They were beyond washed up. And um, 0:45:31.960 --> 0:45:33.960 I was Bob Krass Now I ran an Electoral Records 0:45:33.960 --> 0:45:35.800 and said I got a thing. He had two albums 0:45:35.880 --> 0:45:37.360 left it that he was committed to do it a 0:45:37.360 --> 0:45:39.560 million dollars an album because I can't put these records out, 0:45:39.560 --> 0:45:42.200 I'll lose my ass. Get get rid of them. So 0:45:42.280 --> 0:45:45.080 basically I was My job as a lawyer was to 0:45:45.160 --> 0:45:49.719 negotiate with Jim Beach a release of Queen, And essentially 0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:52.160 he was Jim Beach. Jim Beach is the manager of Queen. 0:45:52.239 --> 0:45:54.280 She He was a lawyer at the time he became 0:45:54.320 --> 0:45:57.080 the manager. If he watched the movie, they referred him 0:45:57.120 --> 0:46:02.279 as Miami Miami Beach. So I, um, and I you know, 0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:04.279 I'd done all the Queen negotiations in the past, So 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:07.840 I negotiated with him to basically give them. It was 0:46:07.840 --> 0:46:10.200 a licensed deal. They they were signed at E M 0:46:10.239 --> 0:46:11.400 I and the rest of the world, and they were 0:46:11.520 --> 0:46:14.600 licensed to North America to Electra Records. I think Geffin 0:46:14.640 --> 0:46:16.320 had tried to sign him. I don't know the history, 0:46:16.400 --> 0:46:18.000 but I think he had tried to sign them, and 0:46:18.040 --> 0:46:20.120 somehow they ended up on a Electura. Maybe it was 0:46:20.160 --> 0:46:23.759 when he was running a Sylum, I don't remember. Um, 0:46:23.800 --> 0:46:26.719 so I negotiated an exit with him where basically we 0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:28.120 got out of paying the money and he got his 0:46:28.160 --> 0:46:31.759 catalog back. So then a few years a little bit 0:46:31.840 --> 0:46:34.839 slower you talking about they Okay, they had a million 0:46:34.920 --> 0:46:37.399 dollar deal with Electra and then what was the next 0:46:37.400 --> 0:46:39.560 step in terms of them getting their catalog back. Well, 0:46:39.600 --> 0:46:41.399 it was a license, so I don't remember how much 0:46:41.400 --> 0:46:44.200 they had left on the catalog anyway, on the licensed deal, 0:46:44.200 --> 0:46:46.200 I just you know, it was thirty years ago. I 0:46:46.239 --> 0:46:49.439 don't remember, but there was something basically the idea was, here, 0:46:50.440 --> 0:46:51.920 we don't have to pay you two million dollars to 0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:55.080 give us too stiff records, and you can have back 0:46:55.160 --> 0:46:58.000 whatever we have of yours. So I got it. Yeah, 0:46:58.719 --> 0:47:03.640 so um that happened. And then um, fast forward a 0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:06.359 few years and I'm running Hollywood Records and I show 0:47:06.440 --> 0:47:08.880 up in the door and look around. There's nobody around, 0:47:08.880 --> 0:47:10.920 and I send an email that Jim no one of 0:47:10.920 --> 0:47:14.239 my email facts to Jim Beach, and I said the 0:47:14.280 --> 0:47:18.400 beach um is Queen's still free for North America. And 0:47:18.480 --> 0:47:20.239 he writes back, yes, and I go, I'd like to 0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:23.160 sign him because I'm listening to the Queen records. They're 0:47:23.160 --> 0:47:25.400 making it the time when they're dead in America. They're great. 0:47:25.920 --> 0:47:27.880 The records are great, and those were hits in the 0:47:27.880 --> 0:47:29.719 rest of them were huge in the rest of the world, 0:47:29.760 --> 0:47:32.319 and they should have been. They were great. So so 0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:34.440 I go, there's something wrong here and this band is 0:47:34.480 --> 0:47:37.240 great and you know so I He says, yeah, they're available, 0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:38.879 and I go, great, I'd love to sign him. He goes, 0:47:38.920 --> 0:47:42.160 would you be interested in the catalog? I go yes. 0:47:43.400 --> 0:47:47.720 So basically I made a deal for It's really funny too. 0:47:48.160 --> 0:47:51.800 I made a deal for the Catalog and Queen and 0:47:52.680 --> 0:47:54.359 I don't want to talk about this. This is could 0:47:54.440 --> 0:47:56.120 put me in a bad light. But in any event, 0:47:56.400 --> 0:48:01.120 there were a lot of impediments like basically, uh, um, 0:48:01.160 --> 0:48:04.480 the night before, the night before I was going to 0:48:04.560 --> 0:48:07.600 sign them, Michael iSER called and said, I'm not going 0:48:07.640 --> 0:48:10.120 to tell this story. Um. In any event, we were 0:48:11.560 --> 0:48:14.560 so there was a spanner in the works just before 0:48:14.560 --> 0:48:17.040 you're going to sign Yes, But I convinced Michael first. 0:48:17.080 --> 0:48:20.200 The first thing was the catalog was it's not a 0:48:20.200 --> 0:48:22.439 secret now it was a ten million dollar purchase, which 0:48:22.640 --> 0:48:24.640 for then was a lot of money, and it was 0:48:25.320 --> 0:48:28.279 an outright purchase. No, it was a license. But I 0:48:28.320 --> 0:48:30.360 had an I built in. I was a good lawyer. 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:36.160 I built in an option to buy it. Okay, exercise that. Yeah, No, 0:48:36.280 --> 0:48:37.719 I don't know. I was gone by the time this 0:48:37.840 --> 0:48:40.359 came up. And I think there was renegotiations along the way, 0:48:40.400 --> 0:48:43.279 but the ultimate result is that Hollywood ended up with 0:48:43.320 --> 0:48:46.640 Catalog and certainly it was there for my lifetime. So 0:48:46.920 --> 0:48:51.560 um so yeah, So Frank said, we can't pay that 0:48:51.640 --> 0:48:53.480 kind of money for this thing. He said, I'm going 0:48:53.520 --> 0:48:55.360 to tell you can't do it, but you're free to 0:48:55.400 --> 0:48:56.800 go talk to Michael about it. And I went to 0:48:56.840 --> 0:48:58.799 talk to Michael, and Michael just basic said all right, 0:48:58.840 --> 0:49:01.040 if something really want, it's on you, you gotta go 0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:03.680 sign it. Then the day before there was, as you said, 0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:05.719 a spanner in the works. Then he finally let me 0:49:05.760 --> 0:49:09.200 go ahead and do the deal. And uh, I remember 0:49:09.440 --> 0:49:11.880 we were going to the we A convention that that week, 0:49:11.960 --> 0:49:16.359 and you know you present at the convention because present distributor. Yeah, 0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:19.600 we present. Uh it's funny Steve Burman, you know Steve Burman. 0:49:20.120 --> 0:49:22.479 Steve Burman was my weird Repp. He was twenty years old. 0:49:22.719 --> 0:49:27.960 So I've known Steve forever. Um, So you know, I'm 0:49:27.960 --> 0:49:30.239 still not sure whether they're gonna sign. Queen's gonna sign 0:49:30.360 --> 0:49:32.040 or not. There's been so many bumps in the road. 0:49:32.480 --> 0:49:35.839 And we have two presentations that we have presentation with 0:49:35.920 --> 0:49:39.719 Queen and presentation without. We have two separate presentations. Ten 0:49:39.760 --> 0:49:42.000 minutes before we're supposed to go on, I get a 0:49:42.040 --> 0:49:44.799 fact from Beats with the signatures of Queen on the deal, 0:49:45.600 --> 0:49:47.360 and then we went out and we started and started 0:49:47.360 --> 0:49:51.520 out with one vision or something like that, and I 0:49:51.600 --> 0:49:53.560 just played almost was gonna cry and mean, it was 0:49:53.600 --> 0:49:55.839 so happy. I was so because I love Queen and 0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:58.560 I just you know. So that's how we ended up 0:49:58.560 --> 0:50:03.560 with Queen in during your tenure was Wayne's World. Yeah, 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:05.560 that the story about that, which there has been told 0:50:05.600 --> 0:50:08.160 a number of times completely wrong, and I think in 0:50:08.200 --> 0:50:13.360 the movie is pretty much wrong too. But what happened was, Um, 0:50:13.480 --> 0:50:15.960 remember I told you I wanted to sign hip hop bands, right, 0:50:16.280 --> 0:50:19.680 So I signed this kid named high Sea, And the 0:50:19.760 --> 0:50:21.439 day before the record was going to come out, somebody 0:50:21.560 --> 0:50:23.080 was playing in one of the office is one of 0:50:23.120 --> 0:50:25.279 the Disney Whites came by and heard you know, the 0:50:25.719 --> 0:50:33.440 lyrics were lyrics, I still remember. Uh. So anyway, so 0:50:33.960 --> 0:50:35.879 they went to iSER and they said, we can't put 0:50:35.880 --> 0:50:37.800 this out. So I made a deal with Mo Auston 0:50:38.440 --> 0:50:40.920 where he it went on on his label as a 0:50:41.320 --> 0:50:43.239 distribution deal, and he helped He helped me out. He 0:50:43.320 --> 0:50:46.239 was Moawson is one of the greats. And uh I 0:50:46.280 --> 0:50:48.440 remember sitting there with high c at one point talking 0:50:48.440 --> 0:50:50.680 to him and he had the lyrics, one of his 0:50:50.760 --> 0:50:56.840 lyrics like I like to fourteen year old girls and okay, 0:50:57.160 --> 0:51:01.320 and you told him what I said, Hey, Crawford, look 0:51:01.680 --> 0:51:04.960 here's in the line that uh here's the line. Look 0:51:04.960 --> 0:51:07.600 at this line. I know you say your own you're 0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:10.120 only thirteen years old, Honey, I don't need no idea 0:51:10.640 --> 0:51:13.640 from a Rolling Stone song straycout blues. That's a really 0:51:13.640 --> 0:51:16.480 clever way to say exactly what you just said. He goes, yeah, 0:51:16.520 --> 0:51:18.279 but it ain't street. I like to say, I fun 0:51:18.360 --> 0:51:24.240 thirteen year old girls. So so that one went over well, So, um, 0:51:24.280 --> 0:51:28.239 what happened was that on The Wayne's World? But wait, wait, 0:51:28.320 --> 0:51:30.680 so Mode put out the record? Did he put off 0:51:30.719 --> 0:51:33.080 the record of that lyric? Yeah? Mo didn't care Mo 0:51:33.239 --> 0:51:36.240 was about creative. He respected the creativity of his artist. 0:51:36.280 --> 0:51:42.279 He didn't censor anybody. Um, so Wayne's world. Um, so 0:51:42.320 --> 0:51:44.840 they send me the script, right, and I read the 0:51:44.880 --> 0:51:51.320 script and it's honestly terrible. And and I go to, uh, 0:51:51.520 --> 0:51:53.880 it was in the script. That scene was in the script, 0:51:54.600 --> 0:51:58.480 but it was script sucked. And so they and the 0:51:58.560 --> 0:52:00.920 same people were attached to it. Yeah, it was. It 0:52:00.960 --> 0:52:02.560 was all the same. This is not This was just 0:52:02.600 --> 0:52:07.200 months before it came out. And so they they said, um, 0:52:07.320 --> 0:52:10.440 we'd like to, um, you know, we'd like to put 0:52:10.480 --> 0:52:12.040 in the movie. I go, I'm fine, and let me 0:52:12.080 --> 0:52:14.200 talk to Beach. I don't you know. I told Beach sucks. 0:52:14.200 --> 0:52:15.759 But it's a movie. And you know, they'll give us 0:52:15.760 --> 0:52:18.880 a thing fee. And he goes, okay, fine, our master fee. 0:52:18.920 --> 0:52:20.600 And and so I said, okay, fine, they guy and 0:52:20.600 --> 0:52:22.080 we want to put it on the soundtrack album. I go, 0:52:22.680 --> 0:52:25.359 there's no way. I just I just paid ten million 0:52:25.360 --> 0:52:26.959 dollars two months ago for this thing. I'm not putting 0:52:27.040 --> 0:52:29.839 on your soundtrack album. That's not gonna happen. And they go, well, 0:52:29.880 --> 0:52:32.320 we're gonna take it out of the movie. Then I go, okay, 0:52:32.960 --> 0:52:34.919 you know what do you mean okay, okay, and my 0:52:35.000 --> 0:52:38.000 company's going this is a good marketing opportunity to go A. 0:52:38.239 --> 0:52:40.759 The movie sucks. B. I've worked in a studio long 0:52:40.880 --> 0:52:43.160 enough to know that it's in the script. It's not 0:52:43.320 --> 0:52:46.480 coming out. It's the thing people don't get is when 0:52:46.520 --> 0:52:50.520 you have leverage. I knew it wasn't coming out. So 0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:53.359 they just kept badgering me and kept threatening and taking 0:52:53.360 --> 0:52:55.000 and I just kept going, take it out. I don't care, 0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:57.840 and movies terrible and you know, and uh, you're not 0:52:57.880 --> 0:53:01.120 taking it out anyway. So what happened was more called 0:53:01.160 --> 0:53:04.560 up and most said, you know, really it would be 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:06.480 really important. It's a favor to me if you would 0:53:06.600 --> 0:53:11.239 let me put this on my soundtrack album. And I went, welm, 0:53:11.400 --> 0:53:14.200 it's you and you're a great man, and sure you 0:53:14.239 --> 0:53:16.799 can do it, but you can't come out. Before you know, 0:53:17.080 --> 0:53:21.080 I'm doing a rerelease, a reissue of Classic Queen Too. 0:53:22.080 --> 0:53:26.000 No we didn't. We did Classic Queen two, and they 0:53:26.000 --> 0:53:28.600 should have been on Classic Queen Run Bohemian Rhapsody, but 0:53:28.760 --> 0:53:30.239 since we knew it was coming, I stripped it on 0:53:30.280 --> 0:53:35.480 the Classic Queen Too. And um, anyway, So so about 0:53:35.480 --> 0:53:37.439 three weeks before the movie opens. I go to see 0:53:37.440 --> 0:53:39.040 a screening of it, and I come back and I 0:53:39.440 --> 0:53:40.880 get on the phone and me like, I called my 0:53:41.080 --> 0:53:43.520 video guy and go, Stu, we gotta did a video 0:53:43.560 --> 0:53:45.399 done immediately this thing. He goes, what do you mean? 0:53:45.440 --> 0:53:47.799 It goes Swain's world. Un blately, he said, I thought 0:53:47.800 --> 0:53:49.920 you said it sucked. I went, the script suck. The 0:53:49.960 --> 0:53:53.960 movie is amazing. I go, I've learned something comedy is 0:53:54.000 --> 0:53:58.080 not in the script necessarily. So we did the We 0:53:58.120 --> 0:54:00.320 did the video. We got Penelfes fear Us, who directed 0:54:00.360 --> 0:54:02.719 the movie, to do the video. Obviously it did. It 0:54:02.800 --> 0:54:07.680 did fabulous. And Freddie had died not tour much earlier. 0:54:07.760 --> 0:54:09.880 He died the fall before the movie came out, and 0:54:09.880 --> 0:54:11.719 I think it was in February of that ninety and 0:54:11.800 --> 0:54:14.120 you knew he was going to die. I did not know. 0:54:14.320 --> 0:54:16.840 That was the story about Michael Eisner. I mean, I 0:54:16.880 --> 0:54:18.719 won't say who, but Michael Eiser had had a little 0:54:18.760 --> 0:54:21.200 bird telling him Freddie was going to die. He had 0:54:21.239 --> 0:54:23.239 aids and he was going to die, and that's why 0:54:23.239 --> 0:54:25.360 he didn't want me to sign him. And I said, well, Michael, 0:54:25.360 --> 0:54:28.160 there's two possibilities. I know he's ill. I mean, Freddie 0:54:28.200 --> 0:54:30.160 didn't hide that he was ill. I said, but I 0:54:30.200 --> 0:54:32.319 don't know why. You know what I said. So either 0:54:32.400 --> 0:54:35.120 he'll get better, in which case is the greatest front 0:54:35.120 --> 0:54:36.640 man that ever lived, then we'll go put him on 0:54:36.719 --> 0:54:40.080 tour it'll be great, or I'll die. And honestly, death 0:54:40.080 --> 0:54:45.120 sells records. So anyway, so we didn't know. And then 0:54:45.560 --> 0:54:49.480 they announced it like two days before they announced that 0:54:49.560 --> 0:54:51.160 he had AIDS and then he died two days later. 0:54:51.840 --> 0:54:54.319 And what I did is, I said, I'm gonna put um. 0:54:54.640 --> 0:54:56.120 We put out a single, these are the days of 0:54:56.160 --> 0:54:58.640 my lives, These days that there are our lives, which 0:54:58.719 --> 0:55:00.440 was on the record that I saw find them for 0:55:00.520 --> 0:55:03.160 It was it's a great record, and we did a 0:55:03.239 --> 0:55:05.880 really nice video. They did a video, and then Disney 0:55:05.880 --> 0:55:08.160 Animation did a video and we're gonna donate all the 0:55:08.160 --> 0:55:11.960 money from the single to the Magic Johnson Eates Foundation. 0:55:13.880 --> 0:55:15.920 So what happens was we see that we're in Waynes 0:55:15.960 --> 0:55:17.480 World thing and I said, well, we've got this record coming, 0:55:17.560 --> 0:55:20.719 Let's put Bohemian Rapsody on the B side. Wayne's World 0:55:20.719 --> 0:55:23.800 blows up. In five seconds, Bohemian rapidly flip flip the 0:55:23.800 --> 0:55:26.480 record over my single gets lost in the mix. We're 0:55:26.520 --> 0:55:29.960 selling just tons of bohemian rapsody singles, and I'm going 0:55:30.000 --> 0:55:32.880 eating all the money to charity while I'm losing my 0:55:32.960 --> 0:55:35.839 ass and the record business. So we at some point 0:55:35.840 --> 0:55:37.400 cut off the single and just put it on the 0:55:37.440 --> 0:55:39.680 album and put it all out. But we we raised 0:55:39.680 --> 0:55:41.800 about four hundred thousand dollars for the Magic Jobs and 0:55:42.080 --> 0:55:44.160 Aids Foundation, because a lot of times they say it's 0:55:44.239 --> 0:55:46.320 charity and there ends up being no money to give you. 0:55:46.520 --> 0:55:50.440 It was like three nine dollars or something like that. Okay, 0:55:50.600 --> 0:55:53.560 so while you were there, did the Queen deal pianout, 0:55:53.680 --> 0:55:55.680 pencil out as they would say? Yeah, I mean when 0:55:55.680 --> 0:55:57.600 I signed them, I mean, you know, we've done some 0:55:57.640 --> 0:56:00.239 projections and you know, look, let's be real. If there's 0:56:00.239 --> 0:56:02.239 been other labels willing to pend ten million dollars, I 0:56:02.280 --> 0:56:05.160 suspect they would have signed somewhere else. But as far 0:56:05.160 --> 0:56:07.239 as I could tell, when we first started putting it out, 0:56:07.239 --> 0:56:09.440 it looked like in about seven years we'd get our 0:56:09.440 --> 0:56:12.799 money back. Then Freddie died, which sells records, so it 0:56:12.800 --> 0:56:14.480 looked like in three years we get our money back. 0:56:14.800 --> 0:56:16.479 Then Wayne's World came out and we got our money 0:56:16.480 --> 0:56:21.000 back that week. Well what about okay, since we'll put 0:56:21.040 --> 0:56:23.120 it in the song on a soundtrack album? Did they 0:56:23.120 --> 0:56:26.399 buy the original? They buy booth? About both? I think 0:56:26.640 --> 0:56:28.719 his records sold two million copies, of Mind sold four 0:56:28.760 --> 0:56:33.440 million copies. Wow. What about Dave Clark. Dave was a 0:56:33.480 --> 0:56:36.359 friend of Freddie's and so that's how he got to me. Yeah, 0:56:36.600 --> 0:56:40.680 he was a friend of Freddie's and um he had 0:56:40.719 --> 0:56:45.960 done that play on in UM the West End with 0:56:46.200 --> 0:56:49.959 um famous English actor and Freddie had written some music 0:56:50.000 --> 0:56:53.640 for it. Whatever. He was friendly with with Freddie and 0:56:53.680 --> 0:56:57.160 so that's how I met him. And you know, he 0:56:57.280 --> 0:57:00.840 was incredibly precious about his out a lot. He probably 0:57:00.840 --> 0:57:03.200 waited way too long to let it come out. It 0:57:03.280 --> 0:57:06.800 took took two years to convince him to to um 0:57:07.000 --> 0:57:10.839 make a deal. And you know, there's there's a demographic 0:57:10.880 --> 0:57:12.759 sweet spot for that, and he might he might have 0:57:12.800 --> 0:57:16.200 missed it. Um. And by the time we made the deal, 0:57:16.680 --> 0:57:18.320 by the time it came out, I was gone and 0:57:18.360 --> 0:57:21.640 I was as big champion, you know. So he always 0:57:21.840 --> 0:57:23.560 told me that it was you know that it was 0:57:23.960 --> 0:57:27.840 basically basically if I had been there, it would have 0:57:27.880 --> 0:57:29.480 felt a lot better about how things but at this 0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:32.800 point the records are commercially unavailable. I don't know, yeah 0:57:32.840 --> 0:57:35.600 they are, and at this point Disney still loans Queen 0:57:35.640 --> 0:57:39.920 Galog definitely on the Queen coun okay. And during that interim, 0:57:39.960 --> 0:57:45.600 if I remember correctly, there were really no successes. Um, well, 0:57:45.640 --> 0:57:47.240 I mean, you know, high Sea sold you know, I 0:57:47.280 --> 0:57:50.560 mean we had moderate successes, Like high Sea sold three 0:57:50.600 --> 0:57:53.840 or four hundred thousand copies. The Party sold probably eight 0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:59.280 hundred thousand records total, so it was it wasn't completely barren. 0:57:59.320 --> 0:58:02.840 And then we had a huge hit with Sister Act 0:58:03.040 --> 0:58:07.720 soundtrack out, Yeah, you know, and there was Remember I 0:58:07.800 --> 0:58:09.400 made an allusion to the fact that I maybe didn't 0:58:09.480 --> 0:58:11.040 hire the best day in our people. Well, I didn't 0:58:11.080 --> 0:58:12.800 hire the best day in our people. The only stuff 0:58:12.800 --> 0:58:14.760 that sold on that label with stuff that I signed, 0:58:14.800 --> 0:58:17.600 which is scary when you're forty years old and you're 0:58:17.640 --> 0:58:19.800 running the n R Department, which I wasn't running. I 0:58:19.840 --> 0:58:22.560 just you know, I mean, the stuff that ultimately worked 0:58:23.960 --> 0:58:26.920 was this stuff, you know, the Queen stuff, which was 0:58:27.000 --> 0:58:32.280 me we signed, Um, we signed the Briant Such Orchestra, 0:58:32.440 --> 0:58:34.959 which didn't work at Disney, but blew up big time 0:58:35.000 --> 0:58:37.560 on because I was gone when they started putting it out. 0:58:37.920 --> 0:58:40.320 We signed Bush. You know, that didn't work until I 0:58:40.400 --> 0:58:43.880 was gone. Um, you know, so there was stuff there. 0:58:44.080 --> 0:58:47.640 It's just you know, Okay, at what point after you 0:58:47.720 --> 0:58:49.919 walk into the building do you realize this isn't gonna 0:58:49.920 --> 0:58:54.560 work out? Oh? I never thought it wasn't gonna work out. 0:58:54.600 --> 0:58:59.520 I thought no. I mean I actually I kind of 0:58:59.520 --> 0:59:01.440 sucked the first two years because I didn't really know 0:59:01.480 --> 0:59:03.240 what I was doing. But I learned a lot, and 0:59:03.280 --> 0:59:04.720 by the last couple of years, I think I was 0:59:04.760 --> 0:59:07.720 actually pretty good at the job. But I wasn't really 0:59:07.760 --> 0:59:10.280 particularly good at the Disney politics. I could have been. 0:59:10.560 --> 0:59:12.320 You know, It's not like I'm stupid, and you know, 0:59:12.880 --> 0:59:15.200 but I thought because Michael liked me and Frank like me, 0:59:15.240 --> 0:59:17.160 I didn't think I had a play ball with Larry 0:59:17.200 --> 0:59:20.080 Murphy or whoever. The head of Stress died shortly thereafter that. 0:59:20.200 --> 0:59:24.760 He died after I left, right after I left. And then, um, 0:59:24.960 --> 0:59:27.680 was there any advantage of being with Disney? What do 0:59:27.680 --> 0:59:30.640 you mean? It's a Disney's corporation? Now, you said they 0:59:30.680 --> 0:59:33.240 made a couple of videos for you. When you're working 0:59:33.280 --> 0:59:35.960 for that, could you leverage anything they had. Yeah, I 0:59:35.960 --> 0:59:37.880 could leverage they were so hot at the time. I 0:59:37.880 --> 0:59:39.720 could leverage their name, and you know, it was what 0:59:39.800 --> 0:59:41.360 I was selling because we didn't have a label that 0:59:41.480 --> 0:59:46.320 was doing much of anything. Um, they weren't particularly synergistic. 0:59:46.360 --> 0:59:48.080 I mean The Party, which was a band that I 0:59:48.120 --> 0:59:50.560 put together out of the Mickey Mouse Club, which actually 0:59:50.560 --> 0:59:54.760 had Britney Spears in it for about five seconds, and J. C. Chase, 0:59:55.000 --> 0:59:57.600 who ended up in one of those other bands in 0:59:57.680 --> 1:00:03.440 Center or something like that. I don't which one. Um, 1:00:03.480 --> 1:00:05.960 you know, they didn't really get the fact that I 1:00:06.000 --> 1:00:09.560 needed them to drive sales of this, you know band 1:00:09.560 --> 1:00:13.520 that was basically manufactured of the Mickey Mouse Club. Um, 1:00:13.600 --> 1:00:17.720 it actually did fairly you know, like I said, I 1:00:17.760 --> 1:00:21.040 did fairly well. But um, they didn't really help a 1:00:21.040 --> 1:00:23.280 whole lot. And it wasn't until about five years later 1:00:23.320 --> 1:00:26.200 when Clive Caldler used a Disney channel to break in 1:00:26.280 --> 1:00:29.480 Sync and Backstreet Boys in a huge way obviously that 1:00:29.520 --> 1:00:31.800 the Disney people went, oh, wow, you know, we can 1:00:31.800 --> 1:00:34.600 help break these backs because at the time I needed 1:00:34.640 --> 1:00:37.040 something like that because radio, I don't know, probably don't 1:00:37.040 --> 1:00:39.960 remember radio from their early nineties, but Hit Radio thought 1:00:39.960 --> 1:00:42.920 their audience was thirty five year old housewives, and so 1:00:42.960 --> 1:00:45.040 they there was I remember one time we had the 1:00:45.080 --> 1:00:47.160 party on. It was number one phones for three straight 1:00:47.200 --> 1:00:49.320 weeks at the station in Hawaii, and they called up 1:00:49.320 --> 1:00:51.240 Brenda Romano said, we're dropping this record. Just what do 1:00:51.280 --> 1:00:53.640 you mean you're dropping the record? These kids are clogging 1:00:53.720 --> 1:00:55.919 up our phone lines. I can't sell enough pimple cream 1:00:56.000 --> 1:00:58.880 to make it worth my while, so you know, and 1:00:58.960 --> 1:01:00.840 so we needed something like that to drive it, and 1:01:00.960 --> 1:01:03.320 it really wasn't particularly helpful. And you know, the film 1:01:03.360 --> 1:01:08.120 company was not particularly helpful, you know, it was. It's 1:01:08.120 --> 1:01:10.760 a big corporation. Every division is Therefore, you know, they 1:01:10.800 --> 1:01:13.240 get paid their bonus based on how their division it does. 1:01:13.280 --> 1:01:15.680 And if they're out trying to promote my records, they're 1:01:15.720 --> 1:01:18.120 not out promoting their TV show or their film. So 1:01:18.320 --> 1:01:19.920 you know, I get it. I'm not bitter about it 1:01:19.960 --> 1:01:28.120 or anything like that. What about the famous memo. There 1:01:28.200 --> 1:01:30.400 was a letter that you wrote I've leaved to Michael Eisner, 1:01:30.840 --> 1:01:32.920 and within a very short period of time it was 1:01:33.040 --> 1:01:35.920 leaked and everybody in the music business credit right. It 1:01:36.040 --> 1:01:39.320 was basically a seven page get off my back because 1:01:39.400 --> 1:01:41.320 I was tired of the strategic planning people, in the 1:01:41.360 --> 1:01:44.080 financial planning people where they come and say, we need 1:01:44.120 --> 1:01:46.680 to do a P and L on on this new artist, 1:01:46.680 --> 1:01:48.880 like I've done two artists. I don't need to do 1:01:48.880 --> 1:01:50.200 a piano if you want to know, a P and 1:01:50.320 --> 1:01:54.560 L L, because most artists fail. And I said, you know, 1:01:55.080 --> 1:01:58.080 so it was sort of that. And and I'm almost 1:01:58.120 --> 1:01:59.960 positive I know who leaked the memo because they're all 1:02:00.840 --> 1:02:04.840 I might have. Well, there were. I delivered the memo 1:02:04.880 --> 1:02:08.040 to Michael Izer, Frank Wells and this third person who 1:02:08.200 --> 1:02:12.240 was the CFO and UM, and then I was walking 1:02:12.280 --> 1:02:14.120 back to my office and I was reading it and 1:02:14.160 --> 1:02:16.680 there was a typo in the memo and I went 1:02:16.720 --> 1:02:18.720 back and fixed the typo. And the memo they got 1:02:18.800 --> 1:02:20.880 leaked had a typo in it, so it had to 1:02:20.880 --> 1:02:23.840 be one of those three copies that got leaked. And 1:02:23.920 --> 1:02:26.760 Frank had his copy with his notes on it, and 1:02:26.800 --> 1:02:29.840 Michael had his copy, So you figure it out. What 1:02:29.920 --> 1:02:33.760 was the backlash when it was leaked? UM, as somebody 1:02:33.840 --> 1:02:36.080 referred to it, it was a seven page suicide note, 1:02:37.800 --> 1:02:40.040 and you know, it blew over eventually. I mean, they 1:02:40.040 --> 1:02:42.080 were there were you know, look, I never got any 1:02:42.080 --> 1:02:43.440 good press while I was there. I mean it just 1:02:43.480 --> 1:02:46.120 got you know, I was bringing Satan to Disney, and 1:02:46.200 --> 1:02:48.360 you know it was they loved to pick on. I 1:02:48.400 --> 1:02:51.240 mean the queen signing go back and look it right, 1:02:52.160 --> 1:02:54.120 How stupid that was, and what an idiot he was 1:02:54.120 --> 1:02:57.240 signing this washed up gay guy, you know. And so 1:02:57.480 --> 1:03:00.240 it wasn't like it was funny Christmas. About a couple 1:03:00.280 --> 1:03:01.880 of years and there was an article in the New 1:03:01.960 --> 1:03:04.400 York Times and basically talking about what a complete disaster 1:03:04.440 --> 1:03:05.960 it was and what a complete city. And I was. 1:03:06.400 --> 1:03:08.120 My sister calls me up and says, did you read 1:03:08.160 --> 1:03:09.920 this New York Times article? And yeah, I read it, 1:03:09.920 --> 1:03:12.280 and she goes, it's horrible. I can't believe they're doing 1:03:12.280 --> 1:03:14.520 this too. You and I go, really should rate it again. 1:03:14.560 --> 1:03:16.360 It was like water off a duck's back at that point. 1:03:17.480 --> 1:03:21.240 So how did it finally end? Um? It finally ended 1:03:21.280 --> 1:03:23.320 that Um, you know, they decided they were going to 1:03:23.360 --> 1:03:25.960 go in a different directions, So I mean, literally, okay 1:03:26.120 --> 1:03:27.480 to keep going yet Well, he just called me in 1:03:27.520 --> 1:03:31.040 his office and you know, basically said we decided we're 1:03:31.040 --> 1:03:32.640 gonna make a change. And I go, is there anything 1:03:32.640 --> 1:03:33.960 I can do to talk about it? He said, no, 1:03:34.080 --> 1:03:37.320 and I went, okay. And at that point, okay, when 1:03:37.360 --> 1:03:38.840 you walked in the office, do you knew that was 1:03:38.840 --> 1:03:41.760 gonna happen? No? And do you have any time left 1:03:41.760 --> 1:03:45.440 on your contract? No? So it was literally kind of 1:03:45.480 --> 1:03:47.280 like the end of the contractor we were like, you know, 1:03:47.440 --> 1:03:50.479 I technically didn't get fired. I technically they just didn't 1:03:50.520 --> 1:03:55.240 pick up my option. Okay, so you walk out the door. 1:03:55.400 --> 1:03:57.840 You're done that day. Well, I mean, you know, he 1:03:57.840 --> 1:03:59.680 said I could keep an office there, and he, you know, 1:03:59.720 --> 1:04:01.880 he's from the film business, so he said, maybe we 1:04:01.880 --> 1:04:03.640 could put up a production company on the lot. I go, 1:04:03.800 --> 1:04:06.600 that's not what we do in the music business. And so, 1:04:06.840 --> 1:04:10.240 you know, but you know, this is actually a story 1:04:10.280 --> 1:04:13.240 that I actually use a lot. So it was on 1:04:13.280 --> 1:04:15.640 a Wednesday or Thursday or something like that, and I said, 1:04:15.640 --> 1:04:17.360 could we just keep a lid on this thing until 1:04:17.360 --> 1:04:20.440 the weekend? And he said, sure, I won't tell anybody, 1:04:20.480 --> 1:04:24.240 And you know, I said great. And so the next morning, 1:04:24.520 --> 1:04:27.480 my general manager is wandering the halls because you'd get 1:04:27.480 --> 1:04:29.120 it at six in the morning or seven in the mornings, 1:04:29.160 --> 1:04:35.880 like ridiculous Jeffrey Katzenberg hours, and and he runs into 1:04:35.920 --> 1:04:37.840 some strap planning kid. You know some kid it was 1:04:37.960 --> 1:04:40.680 like in this six years old in the strat Planning division. 1:04:41.480 --> 1:04:45.160 And he says, you know, patern has been fired. And 1:04:45.160 --> 1:04:47.240 and so I get there on Brad says to me, 1:04:47.360 --> 1:04:48.959 you know they told me you're fired. To go what's 1:04:48.960 --> 1:04:50.360 that about? I go, I don't know it's I go 1:04:50.560 --> 1:04:53.160 to see Eisner. I go, I thought we're gonna sort 1:04:53.200 --> 1:04:54.680 of give me a couple of days on this thing. 1:04:54.720 --> 1:04:56.880 He goes, he said, I had nothing to do with it. 1:04:56.880 --> 1:04:58.960 He goes, uh, let me, let me find out what's 1:04:59.080 --> 1:05:00.680 kid's name? I got. I don't all. I call Brad. 1:05:00.720 --> 1:05:03.240 He goes, you know, so Is Star calls up this 1:05:03.320 --> 1:05:07.240 kid and he said, so I heard you tell Brad 1:05:07.320 --> 1:05:11.320 Hunt that you know that we're firing paternal And he goes, oh, 1:05:11.440 --> 1:05:13.520 no, no no, I didn't do that, and he goes, okay. 1:05:13.880 --> 1:05:16.040 He calls Brad Hunt and talks to Brad Hunting and 1:05:16.120 --> 1:05:17.760 he gets off the phone and he says, to me, 1:05:18.480 --> 1:05:21.040 that kids lying. He calls the kid back and said, 1:05:21.040 --> 1:05:23.120 you know what, I don't know who you are, what 1:05:23.240 --> 1:05:25.439 you do, or what where you come from. But he said, 1:05:25.480 --> 1:05:27.960 let me tell you something. I don't think it's really 1:05:28.160 --> 1:05:30.360 wise to the wide to the CEO of your company, 1:05:30.680 --> 1:05:34.800 and he hung up on him. Okay, and you didn't 1:05:34.840 --> 1:05:36.680 want people to know for the weekend. Why you wanted 1:05:36.680 --> 1:05:39.080 to tell your staff yourself. Yeah, I just wanted to, 1:05:39.320 --> 1:05:41.840 you know, keep it under wraps for a while. Okay, 1:05:41.920 --> 1:05:45.600 So then your knned After that weekend, You're done. What's 1:05:45.600 --> 1:05:49.200 your emotional state? Not good? It's not fun getting fired, 1:05:49.560 --> 1:05:51.480 iSER said to me. We all get fired at some point. 1:05:51.520 --> 1:05:54.959 It's it's a it's a building block towards a successful career. 1:05:55.040 --> 1:05:57.360 Because I've been fired, that's great. I don't like it. 1:05:59.240 --> 1:06:01.600 So how long to take you to pick your feet 1:06:02.040 --> 1:06:06.440 up from pick yourself up? Um? Well, I mean it 1:06:06.520 --> 1:06:09.360 wasn't immediate. Um I tried to find a job for 1:06:09.360 --> 1:06:11.480 a while. You know, I sit there and go, okay, 1:06:12.200 --> 1:06:15.120 it's in. It's in the nineties. There's a convergence between film, 1:06:15.200 --> 1:06:19.000 TV and music. I've obviously got music nailed film and 1:06:19.080 --> 1:06:22.560 I mean film technology and music, and I go, I've 1:06:22.560 --> 1:06:24.360 worked at a studio for four years. I kind of 1:06:24.360 --> 1:06:26.439 know my way around the studio, which I did learn. 1:06:27.240 --> 1:06:29.560 And technology well, my background I used to write software, 1:06:29.600 --> 1:06:32.000 so I got that down. So I should be very hirable. 1:06:32.040 --> 1:06:34.960 So I went to some of the placement firms whatever 1:06:34.960 --> 1:06:37.120 they call like corn Furry and stuff like that. These 1:06:37.160 --> 1:06:39.439 things you learn when you're unemployed, Like, first of all, 1:06:40.160 --> 1:06:41.800 they don't really want to place you. They want to 1:06:41.800 --> 1:06:45.480 get paid for finding you. So they were pretty useless 1:06:45.600 --> 1:06:48.200 because again, I look like a good candidate, you know, 1:06:48.360 --> 1:06:50.720 I mean again, it didn't seem to me that it 1:06:50.720 --> 1:06:55.240 would be impossible to find a job. The other thing 1:06:55.280 --> 1:06:57.440 I learned is there's probably ten people in hand out 1:06:57.440 --> 1:06:59.040 the job that I wanted, and if you don't have 1:06:59.080 --> 1:07:00.920 a good relationship with not to say you have a 1:07:00.960 --> 1:07:04.640 bad relationship, but you know, it's it's somewhat a meritocracy, 1:07:04.640 --> 1:07:07.800 but it's not a complete meritocracy. It's a meritocracy based 1:07:07.840 --> 1:07:10.960 on relationships. So if you don't have the relationships, you know, 1:07:11.160 --> 1:07:13.600 it wasn't gonna happen. And the guys that I knew 1:07:13.600 --> 1:07:16.320 that handed out these jobs were Geffen who was mad 1:07:16.360 --> 1:07:18.640 at me, Eisner who just fired me, and you know 1:07:18.760 --> 1:07:22.480 whatever else. So that didn't work. So I kind of 1:07:22.480 --> 1:07:26.480 sat around and and try to figure out what I 1:07:26.480 --> 1:07:28.000 was gonna do next. And then sot of my old 1:07:28.040 --> 1:07:30.040 clients started calling me and saying, could you help out 1:07:30.080 --> 1:07:32.240 as a lawyer. The last thing I wanted to do 1:07:32.320 --> 1:07:34.760 is be a lawyer again, but it was I had 1:07:34.840 --> 1:07:36.720 to just kind of crawl back to being a lawyer 1:07:36.720 --> 1:07:39.800 because it's really all that I was in demand for. 1:07:40.560 --> 1:07:42.640 So how long after you got cam by Eisener were 1:07:42.680 --> 1:07:45.000 you really back in the swing of being a lawyer? 1:07:46.160 --> 1:07:51.120 Probably about six months in Metallica asked me to help 1:07:51.160 --> 1:07:55.000 them get out of there their deal with Electra, so 1:07:55.080 --> 1:07:57.240 that I started working on that, and then I started 1:07:57.280 --> 1:08:00.280 working on some other stuff, and and after about a 1:08:00.360 --> 1:08:02.720 year my current partner said, why are you working out 1:08:02.720 --> 1:08:04.000 of your house? Why don't you come in here and 1:08:04.000 --> 1:08:05.280 we'll give you an office. We don't have to have 1:08:05.320 --> 1:08:08.000 any commitments. And so I came in here and got 1:08:08.000 --> 1:08:12.840 an office and just started People started calling, Okay, what 1:08:13.000 --> 1:08:15.080 was the name of the lawyer who ended up running 1:08:15.120 --> 1:08:19.720 Polydor Polygraham? David Broun, David Broun. Okay, everybody whoever was 1:08:19.800 --> 1:08:22.880 a lawyer who went inside, when they came out and 1:08:22.920 --> 1:08:27.280 tried to practice law dead in the water, failed miserably. Hey, 1:08:27.320 --> 1:08:29.559 were you aware of that? Be? Why why did you 1:08:29.600 --> 1:08:32.920 break that mold? I was very aware of it and 1:08:33.080 --> 1:08:35.160 be I mean, I don't know why I broke them all. 1:08:35.400 --> 1:08:37.320 The reason I went back to the lawyers, I couldn't 1:08:37.360 --> 1:08:40.240 get a job, and you know, like I'm not independently wealthy, 1:08:40.280 --> 1:08:42.080 so I needed to get a job. And it was 1:08:42.120 --> 1:08:43.840 the job that people seem to be willing to hire 1:08:43.880 --> 1:08:46.760 me for. And you know, it's funny. I went back 1:08:46.800 --> 1:08:51.560 to Minat and said, I remember, I go, maybe I 1:08:51.600 --> 1:08:53.680 could come back here and at least you can give 1:08:53.720 --> 1:08:56.280 me work, and they go, well, what are you looking for? 1:08:56.320 --> 1:08:58.439 And I said, well, look all my old clients that 1:08:58.520 --> 1:09:01.559 I left behind, I won't you know, I won't make 1:09:01.560 --> 1:09:03.720 any claim on any of them, except for Metallica because 1:09:03.720 --> 1:09:06.439 I'm already doing work for them. So like, say ten 1:09:06.520 --> 1:09:09.360 percent of what Metallica is generating or five percent some 1:09:09.720 --> 1:09:11.920 low number. And then I said, like, I'd like a 1:09:11.960 --> 1:09:14.479 third of any new business that I bring in, and 1:09:14.600 --> 1:09:16.400 you can pay me on my hours. And they go, well, 1:09:16.479 --> 1:09:18.280 third in new business. If you have two million dollars 1:09:18.280 --> 1:09:20.960 of business, we don't have to pay seven under thousand 1:09:20.960 --> 1:09:22.280 of dollars. That's not how it works here. And I go, 1:09:22.320 --> 1:09:24.040 it's two million dollars of business. You don't have I'm 1:09:24.040 --> 1:09:27.840 not asking for the old stuff, and they go, well, um, 1:09:27.960 --> 1:09:29.760 that's not what we do here, but we'd like you back, 1:09:29.800 --> 1:09:32.040 but we'd like to pay you. Like it was ridiculous, 1:09:32.080 --> 1:09:35.840 whatever it was. So I just didn't do that, and 1:09:35.920 --> 1:09:39.920 I went like, I talked to some other firms, but again, 1:09:41.240 --> 1:09:43.360 the law firm business, it's like, we'll pay you for 1:09:43.400 --> 1:09:45.640 what you kill. And if I'm gonna get paid for 1:09:45.680 --> 1:09:47.320 what I kill, I might as well keep it myself. 1:09:48.040 --> 1:09:51.760 So I started I started back here at this with 1:09:51.800 --> 1:09:53.680 my friends, and people just started calling. I mean, I 1:09:53.680 --> 1:09:57.800 didn't approach anybody really, And the old clients that you 1:09:57.920 --> 1:10:00.599 left behind him at what percentage of them aimed to you? Now? 1:10:00.800 --> 1:10:03.439 A large percentage, a really large percentage. And why do 1:10:03.479 --> 1:10:05.439 you think that was? I think they were happy with 1:10:05.479 --> 1:10:07.439 the work I've done for them, and you know that, 1:10:07.479 --> 1:10:10.360 I don't think they felt like they it's gonna fit 1:10:10.439 --> 1:10:13.600 at the time. Okay, So at what point did you 1:10:14.200 --> 1:10:18.040 and Howard and Holmes ultimately decide, well, you're gonna throw 1:10:18.080 --> 1:10:21.439 in together. Well, I just started generating a lot of 1:10:21.479 --> 1:10:25.120 work and so I needed, you know, it seemed like 1:10:25.160 --> 1:10:27.920 a much better idea to have people that help, you know, 1:10:28.000 --> 1:10:30.920 so that's kind of just evolved. I think they wanted 1:10:30.960 --> 1:10:32.160 me to do it, and they just were trying to 1:10:32.200 --> 1:10:33.640 be nice to me to give me the space to 1:10:33.640 --> 1:10:35.680 figure out that I wasn't I wasn't going to get 1:10:35.680 --> 1:10:37.920 a job. And once when you were back into it, 1:10:38.160 --> 1:10:40.200 did you make peace with being a lawyer as opposed 1:10:40.200 --> 1:10:43.599 to a business executive? Yeah? Yeah, I mean, you know, 1:10:43.720 --> 1:10:45.680 I'm It's something I'm good at, so I'm gonna as 1:10:45.720 --> 1:10:48.960 well deal with it. Well, at this late age, you 1:10:49.000 --> 1:10:51.479 feel like, you know, any regrets you didn't do something else. 1:10:53.479 --> 1:10:55.519 I think we all have regrets, but you know I 1:10:55.560 --> 1:10:59.679 did okay, So okay, so now you come back in Okay, 1:10:59.760 --> 1:11:02.280 let let's jump forward and then jump back. What is 1:11:02.320 --> 1:11:07.120 the difference practicing law now as opposed to before when 1:11:07.160 --> 1:11:09.479 you were before you went to Hollywood Records? You mean 1:11:09.520 --> 1:11:12.720 now or when I just got back in now? Now 1:11:12.760 --> 1:11:15.200 it's super different. I mean when I got back into 1:11:15.240 --> 1:11:18.479 the nineties, it was pretty similar. I mean the business 1:11:18.600 --> 1:11:20.080 is just I mean, look a lot of what I 1:11:20.160 --> 1:11:21.880 don't do much in the I don't do a lot 1:11:21.880 --> 1:11:23.800 of record deals anymore, which is the basis of the 1:11:23.800 --> 1:11:29.200 practice before. The whole marketing aspect of the music. The 1:11:29.200 --> 1:11:32.679 record business has change, has changed. I mean basically when 1:11:32.680 --> 1:11:34.800 I was involved, you know, even when I was at 1:11:34.800 --> 1:11:37.639 a record company, they talk about marketing and they talk 1:11:37.680 --> 1:11:39.880 about all this bunch crap. I mean, basically, everything you 1:11:39.920 --> 1:11:42.400 did was to drive something either to radio or MTV. 1:11:43.200 --> 1:11:45.400 And that was what marketing was, is to get MTVS 1:11:45.400 --> 1:11:49.920 attention or radio's attention. Um, and so the path was 1:11:49.960 --> 1:11:53.200 pretty clear. There were a bunch of gatekeepers, and you 1:11:53.200 --> 1:11:54.880 wanted to figure out how to get it to the 1:11:54.920 --> 1:11:57.840 gatekeepers and get it through the gate Now, I don't 1:11:57.840 --> 1:11:59.759 know what the hell you do. Everything breaks that viral 1:11:59.840 --> 1:12:02.080 a I don't know the good news. I guess you 1:12:02.080 --> 1:12:05.000 can bribe pray lists, except Spotify won't let you bribe them. 1:12:05.000 --> 1:12:09.559 And it's it seems a whole lot more difficult to 1:12:09.600 --> 1:12:11.559 break an artist now, and it's just or not even 1:12:11.600 --> 1:12:15.040 so much to break it is to sustain a career. Okay, 1:12:15.080 --> 1:12:19.040 but uh so since before now we talked in another 1:12:19.120 --> 1:12:23.439 time about what's your viewpoint on the music today? The 1:12:23.520 --> 1:12:26.080 music will see in the Spotify Top fifty. The stuff 1:12:26.080 --> 1:12:29.200 that labels are signing, I mean labels are signing, what 1:12:29.400 --> 1:12:31.920 drives revenue? What drives revenue is the stuff that gets 1:12:31.920 --> 1:12:33.639 played over and over and over again. And what gets 1:12:33.640 --> 1:12:35.800 played over and over again what thirteen and fourteen year 1:12:35.800 --> 1:12:38.679 olds like because they'll play something a hundred times a day. 1:12:38.720 --> 1:12:41.439 Whereas if you or I buy a record, we might 1:12:41.479 --> 1:12:43.240 listen to it, you know, but we have jobs and 1:12:43.240 --> 1:12:45.840 we have other things to do. Kids listen to consume music, 1:12:46.760 --> 1:12:49.160 so whatever the you know, whatever they and their friends 1:12:49.160 --> 1:12:52.400 are consuming is what gets you know, in the way 1:12:52.439 --> 1:12:55.840 Spotify works is they you get paid based on the 1:12:55.920 --> 1:12:58.080 number of places that you get for your particular track 1:12:58.120 --> 1:13:01.639 compared to the overall number of plays. So essentially thirteen 1:13:01.680 --> 1:13:03.479 or fourteen year olds or fifteen year olds or whatever 1:13:03.520 --> 1:13:06.920 it is, are are sort of driving what gets picked 1:13:06.960 --> 1:13:09.400 up by major labels because that's what but by the 1:13:09.439 --> 1:13:12.160 same token, in terms of the overall music business, the 1:13:12.320 --> 1:13:15.160 streams and the labels are a smaller percentage than ever 1:13:15.160 --> 1:13:18.719 in our history, I'm sorry, as well as a percentage 1:13:18.720 --> 1:13:23.760 of the overall revenue is uh streams and major signings. 1:13:23.800 --> 1:13:25.799 Like a lot of your acts, you put out the records. 1:13:25.800 --> 1:13:28.519 Metallica puts off the records centraally themselves. They own the record, 1:13:28.960 --> 1:13:32.640 They find a deal so, but they're generating a shipload 1:13:32.680 --> 1:13:36.280 of money there, you know. Yes, Yeah, and a lot 1:13:36.280 --> 1:13:39.439 of the other clients are like that too, Yeah, No, 1:13:39.560 --> 1:13:41.400 a lot of That's a lot of what I do. 1:13:41.479 --> 1:13:43.599 I'll do a lot of deals with Live Nation, whereas 1:13:43.600 --> 1:13:44.600 I used to do a lot of deals with the 1:13:44.600 --> 1:13:46.200 record companies. I do a lot of deals with around 1:13:46.360 --> 1:13:49.760 Live Nation, a real lot or a g And are 1:13:49.800 --> 1:13:53.720 those deals tend to be overall deals? Yeah, I mean 1:13:53.760 --> 1:13:55.800 there's a number. I mean I do a lot of 1:13:56.120 --> 1:13:58.920 you know, like Live Nation buys a lot of management companies, 1:13:58.920 --> 1:14:01.280 so I represent managers that are selling the Live Nation 1:14:02.000 --> 1:14:05.000 and you know, there's like a Coachella deal for Dr 1:14:05.080 --> 1:14:08.320 Dre for instance, I'll do that deal, or a national 1:14:08.360 --> 1:14:10.320 tour deal for one of my clients. We get very 1:14:10.360 --> 1:14:12.439 involved in that, whereas that was just the province of 1:14:12.439 --> 1:14:18.320 agents before. And how did you get Drey as a client? Um? Uh, 1:14:18.439 --> 1:14:23.559 the general manager of Interscope Records, David Cohen Um was 1:14:23.640 --> 1:14:27.240 dealing with whoever his lawyer was at the time, and uh, 1:14:27.280 --> 1:14:31.040 it was being very difficult and they couldn't get anything done. 1:14:31.040 --> 1:14:34.320 And and Jimmy obviously has a great relationship with Dr 1:14:34.360 --> 1:14:37.040 Dre and Cohen went to Jimmy and said, look, there's 1:14:37.080 --> 1:14:40.519 my friend that just started back into practice again. And 1:14:40.800 --> 1:14:43.120 m you know, I think he's he's more of a 1:14:43.240 --> 1:14:45.760 problem solving a problem creator. Maybe we should see if 1:14:45.800 --> 1:14:48.479 Drey wants to meet with him. So they set up 1:14:48.479 --> 1:14:50.040 a meeting for me with Dre, and I met with 1:14:50.120 --> 1:14:52.960 Dre and and he hired me. At the time, I mean, 1:14:53.040 --> 1:14:56.360 Drey wasn't Dre. It was it was his Queen period, 1:14:56.439 --> 1:14:59.760 it was his fellow period. Um, you know, but I 1:14:59.760 --> 1:15:01.120 thought I think I had a I mean I was 1:15:01.120 --> 1:15:03.439 always a fan, so that was you know, I just 1:15:03.479 --> 1:15:07.759 thought he was enormously, enormously talented and we'd figure something 1:15:07.800 --> 1:15:10.320 out for three or four years. It was just it 1:15:10.439 --> 1:15:15.439 was it was tough. Okay. So in terms of payment 1:15:15.840 --> 1:15:18.200 or all your clients on a percentage deal, No, most 1:15:18.200 --> 1:15:22.760 of my clients are hourly, and uh, if it is 1:15:22.800 --> 1:15:27.680 a percentage deal, was a traditional five lawyer house. Okay, 1:15:27.720 --> 1:15:29.800 So what would how do you decide if a client 1:15:29.880 --> 1:15:31.920 is a percentage deal or an hourly deal. I let 1:15:31.960 --> 1:15:35.080 them decide. I don't decide into some book up a 1:15:35.080 --> 1:15:36.559 lot of hours then say hey, I'll be in a 1:15:36.560 --> 1:15:40.640 percentage We don't like doing that. I mean, that's the 1:15:40.680 --> 1:15:42.280 one thing that I'd have a problem with this year, 1:15:42.360 --> 1:15:44.240 the percentage or an hourly client. I don't want to 1:15:44.240 --> 1:15:45.760 sit there and have you on a percentage where you're 1:15:45.800 --> 1:15:47.639 making no money and then when you start making money 1:15:47.640 --> 1:15:50.160 you want to go to hourly. That's not right. And 1:15:50.240 --> 1:15:53.000 so if I'm on a percentage deal, will you take 1:15:53.040 --> 1:15:56.040 care of all my legal business or just my my 1:15:56.200 --> 1:15:59.240 music business, like wills and trust, you know, and things 1:15:59.280 --> 1:16:01.840 like that. We don't do wills here, so we've heard 1:16:01.880 --> 1:16:04.800 that out. We do anything that's kind of I mean, 1:16:04.840 --> 1:16:07.759 if it's litigation, we charge on top for that, um 1:16:07.840 --> 1:16:10.880 because we're one of the few entertainment firms that have litigators. 1:16:11.520 --> 1:16:14.320 But we'll do any kind of contractual stuff, any kind 1:16:14.320 --> 1:16:16.280 of corporate stuff. So if it's a live Nation deal, 1:16:16.320 --> 1:16:18.559 we'll do that. It's a publishing deal with that record deal, 1:16:18.600 --> 1:16:21.519 will do that. It's a corporate formation or a joint venture, 1:16:21.560 --> 1:16:25.120 will do that. And that's all part of the five percent. Okay, 1:16:25.479 --> 1:16:30.840 So tell me. Because your firm was involved in the uh, 1:16:32.040 --> 1:16:34.439 the famous hit case that went through a whole thing, 1:16:34.439 --> 1:16:38.519 and now we have the stairway case. Uh the borderlines right, 1:16:38.920 --> 1:16:42.639 So what's your viewput on all that? Don't get me started. 1:16:42.720 --> 1:16:46.200 The court system is just not set up to understand music. 1:16:46.240 --> 1:16:49.280 They suck at it. I I about six months ago 1:16:49.360 --> 1:16:52.360 was a reception with Justice Kagan from the Supreme Court, 1:16:52.400 --> 1:16:54.360 and I said, well, well a little bit. So how 1:16:54.360 --> 1:16:56.680 did that come together? Um, I do a lot of 1:16:56.720 --> 1:16:58.559 work at u C Law School, and she was there 1:16:58.560 --> 1:17:01.160 for a reception and the so they invited me. I 1:17:01.200 --> 1:17:04.640 work with Kenny's Different at the Different Center, and us 1:17:04.720 --> 1:17:07.320 and me and about ten other people are twelve other people, 1:17:08.160 --> 1:17:09.880 and so I just said, could you please leave the 1:17:09.960 --> 1:17:12.280 music cases alone? You get you get them wrong every 1:17:12.280 --> 1:17:14.479 single time. I mean not every time, but at least 1:17:14.520 --> 1:17:18.040 half the time. Because the judges can read books, they 1:17:18.040 --> 1:17:20.320 get the bookcases right. They get the script cases, all 1:17:20.360 --> 1:17:22.519 the script copyright cases, they get those right. They throw 1:17:22.600 --> 1:17:24.519 them out because they generally deserve to be thrown out. 1:17:25.120 --> 1:17:27.800 They can't read music. They don't understand it. The blurredlines case, 1:17:28.240 --> 1:17:30.080 there are no notes the same between that and the 1:17:30.080 --> 1:17:32.200 Marvin Gay tune. There are no chords the same, there 1:17:32.200 --> 1:17:34.679 are no lyrics the same. There's nothing in the same 1:17:34.720 --> 1:17:38.320 except they sound the same. And that's not a copyright infringement. 1:17:38.400 --> 1:17:42.280 You know, I tell you that the Stairway to Heaven case, 1:17:42.479 --> 1:17:45.040 it's probably more has more in common with the Spirit 1:17:45.120 --> 1:17:47.760 song then Marvin Gay and Blurred Lines, and I think 1:17:47.760 --> 1:17:51.400 that the Stairway to Heaven case, it looks like they're 1:17:51.400 --> 1:17:54.479 gonna just you know, get rid of that. So it's 1:17:54.680 --> 1:17:58.439 in this Katie Perry case, another disaster. It's like they say, well, 1:17:58.479 --> 1:18:01.240 there's an eight Austinado that's the same between the two songs. 1:18:01.280 --> 1:18:03.559 Once you say it's an ostinato, you're talking about a 1:18:03.560 --> 1:18:06.639 common figure in music. You can infringe in ostinato. It's 1:18:06.680 --> 1:18:10.000 a repeating a bunch of notes. It's ridiculous. And they 1:18:10.080 --> 1:18:11.880 let these go to a jury and they don't stop 1:18:11.960 --> 1:18:15.240 them on a summary judgment. It's it's pathetic. Okay, So 1:18:15.280 --> 1:18:17.559 what's did at this point in time on the Blurred 1:18:17.560 --> 1:18:20.400 Lines case? Did they pay the judgment or is there 1:18:20.439 --> 1:18:23.200 anything left? It's we're done, we're you know, we we 1:18:23.479 --> 1:18:25.840 asked for a non bunkering they granted and they led 1:18:25.880 --> 1:18:27.880 Zeppelin case. They didn't grant it to us. We're done, 1:18:27.920 --> 1:18:29.719 and the Supreme Court is not going to take the case. 1:18:30.080 --> 1:18:32.840 If they'd screw it up anyway. So so they paid 1:18:32.840 --> 1:18:35.080 the money or you're negotiating with no, no, we've we 1:18:35.320 --> 1:18:39.599 you mean the defendants we paid, Okay, And so what 1:18:39.640 --> 1:18:42.200 do you think should be the law in terms of 1:18:42.240 --> 1:18:45.080 copyright infringement. The law is fine, they just don't know 1:18:45.120 --> 1:18:46.920 how to implement it. I mean, the law is fine. 1:18:48.040 --> 1:18:49.880 You look at the law, these cases you know they 1:18:49.920 --> 1:18:54.920 shouldn't not. There's I don't want to get too deep 1:18:54.960 --> 1:18:57.360 into this, but there's something called the extrinsic tests and 1:18:57.400 --> 1:19:00.439 the intrinsic tests, and the extrinsic tests where they have 1:19:00.520 --> 1:19:03.880 music colleges do gang wars and try to, you know, 1:19:04.080 --> 1:19:07.479 say whether it's an infringement or not extrinsically. And and 1:19:07.520 --> 1:19:11.760 if if they decide that, um, if they decide that 1:19:11.800 --> 1:19:15.040 there's a substantial similarity in strinsically, they sent it to 1:19:15.040 --> 1:19:19.519 a jury to decide whether intrinsically there's substantial similarity. I'm 1:19:19.560 --> 1:19:21.680 just I don't know to tell you other than you 1:19:21.720 --> 1:19:23.320 could sit there and look at the music and these 1:19:23.320 --> 1:19:26.760 cases should mostly be thrown out. Okay. So your prediction 1:19:27.000 --> 1:19:30.720 is uh that the spirit estate will not win the 1:19:30.760 --> 1:19:33.160 Steerway to Heaven case. But you're I'm not holding you, 1:19:33.160 --> 1:19:36.120 but it does look like it, okay. So let me 1:19:36.160 --> 1:19:40.200 just say in the in the Blurred Lions case when 1:19:40.240 --> 1:19:42.800 it went up on appeal, there was a descent in 1:19:42.840 --> 1:19:45.600 the Blurred Lince case that was completely a h percent right. 1:19:45.640 --> 1:19:46.960 You want to know if the law should be or 1:19:47.040 --> 1:19:49.679 the law is? Is what the descent said. How many 1:19:49.760 --> 1:19:53.360 judges were in that there's one dissenting to in the majority. 1:19:53.680 --> 1:19:57.360 The two in the majority uh upheld the trial court 1:19:58.040 --> 1:20:00.960 on procedural grounds that they didn't they didn't opine as 1:20:01.000 --> 1:20:03.080 to the merits of the case. She opined. The judge 1:20:03.080 --> 1:20:06.000 win applied pine is to the merits of the case 1:20:06.040 --> 1:20:08.160 and got it completely right. So if you want to 1:20:08.160 --> 1:20:10.800 know what that's what the law is. And I think 1:20:11.680 --> 1:20:13.760 I think she was the presiding judge in the m 1:20:13.800 --> 1:20:16.879 Bank appeal and that led Zeppelin case. So my prediction 1:20:17.000 --> 1:20:19.040 is that what she wrote in the Blurred Line case 1:20:19.120 --> 1:20:21.000 is going to become law of the circuit, which is 1:20:21.080 --> 1:20:23.880 what it should be, okay? And where will that leave 1:20:24.439 --> 1:20:28.280 copyright infringement? Because the Blurred Lines made everybody anxious. Do 1:20:28.360 --> 1:20:32.120 you think this will move it towards more liberalism or 1:20:33.040 --> 1:20:35.240 to be a crackdown. What do you think. I think 1:20:35.439 --> 1:20:37.600 it's gonna be. People will be free to create and 1:20:37.640 --> 1:20:41.600 have to worry about everything they write and generating infringement 1:20:41.640 --> 1:20:44.720 suit an infringement suit. I mean, it's just really, I mean, 1:20:44.760 --> 1:20:47.920 every time somebody and I represent has a hit, some 1:20:48.080 --> 1:20:50.200 idiot sends an email saying, I have a song on 1:20:50.200 --> 1:20:53.080 the internet. You must have heard because we have people 1:20:53.080 --> 1:20:55.800 that saw it on YouTube, and therefore you stole my song. 1:20:55.920 --> 1:20:58.280 I mean, you know, it's every single So certainly the 1:20:58.360 --> 1:21:02.639 Cathy Perry Katie because you have to prove access. This 1:21:02.680 --> 1:21:05.280 guy had some you know, Christians who would have heard it. 1:21:05.960 --> 1:21:08.080 While she was Christian at one point, so she might 1:21:08.120 --> 1:21:10.120 have heard. I mean, it's just it's just ridiculous. And 1:21:10.760 --> 1:21:13.519 the jury in the Blurredlines case nobody could read music. None, 1:21:13.520 --> 1:21:18.400 not one of the jurors can read music. It's just stupid. Okay, 1:21:18.600 --> 1:21:23.280 So if we look forward, what do we see in 1:21:23.320 --> 1:21:27.679 the music business, what do you mean in terms of Okay, 1:21:27.800 --> 1:21:30.720 let me go with differently you when it comes to 1:21:30.760 --> 1:21:34.240 anti trust law. I'll let you answer. Your viewpoint is 1:21:35.080 --> 1:21:38.439 there is virtually no anti trust anywhere. Okay. The only 1:21:38.439 --> 1:21:40.680 anti trust that this is gonna get me a lot 1:21:40.720 --> 1:21:43.040 of trouble. But the only anti trust that exists is 1:21:43.240 --> 1:21:45.880 when it's government supported and I trust like a T 1:21:46.040 --> 1:21:48.960 and T in the past or something like that. So 1:21:49.080 --> 1:21:52.479 in terms of company mergers, you're that you're totally cool 1:21:52.520 --> 1:21:56.000 with that, completely okay. So to talk about recently T 1:21:56.200 --> 1:21:59.960 Mobile and and T Mobile Sprint, totally fine. Yeah, okay, 1:22:00.160 --> 1:22:03.200 if there were further consolidation three labels to two, would 1:22:03.200 --> 1:22:06.479 that be fine? Yeah? Okay, So because you feel eventually 1:22:06.520 --> 1:22:08.640 there's a third party that will come. What do you 1:22:08.680 --> 1:22:12.519 think about Facebook and Snapchat and all that anybody have 1:22:12.560 --> 1:22:14.559 a problem with them? I mean seriously, you know they 1:22:14.680 --> 1:22:18.880 recently Snapchat has been logging the ways that face forget 1:22:18.920 --> 1:22:22.240 the government, Snapchat has been logging the way that Facebook 1:22:22.479 --> 1:22:25.840 has been anti competitive in their eyes, allowing may not 1:22:25.880 --> 1:22:28.479 allowing them to have any content on Instagram that is 1:22:28.560 --> 1:22:33.040 Snapchat oriented, uh, having a special program such that they 1:22:33.080 --> 1:22:35.640 could see what was going on in Snapchat. I mean 1:22:35.640 --> 1:22:38.920 there's some legal issues there also, you know, as opposed 1:22:38.920 --> 1:22:41.840 to just raw anti trust, but some of them in 1:22:41.920 --> 1:22:45.320 the privacy stuff and that you know, data, you know, 1:22:45.400 --> 1:22:48.920 snatching stuff, that's a different story. I mean that's that's 1:22:48.920 --> 1:22:51.519 its own it's its own problem, you know. I mean again, 1:22:51.560 --> 1:22:55.080 I don't have an opinion about that. Okay, let's go 1:22:55.160 --> 1:22:59.160 back to Metallica. Walk us through Metallica Napster. What you 1:22:59.240 --> 1:23:02.120 thought and what you think now and whatever. I don't 1:23:02.320 --> 1:23:04.679 think any differently than I thought then. I thought Napster 1:23:04.840 --> 1:23:09.040 was a massive bootlegging uh scheme, and and you know, 1:23:09.040 --> 1:23:12.639 everybody goes, well, you should have settled with Napster. Really, 1:23:12.680 --> 1:23:15.360 how are we supposed to settle They're charging nothing, They've 1:23:15.400 --> 1:23:17.800 got twenty five million followers. In order to get any 1:23:17.840 --> 1:23:20.000 decent income, we'd have to charge ten dollars a month, 1:23:20.600 --> 1:23:23.120 and we charged ten dollars a month, and you're still 1:23:23.200 --> 1:23:25.479 half the size of the business you work two years before, 1:23:26.240 --> 1:23:28.719 and somebody starts Crapster the next day, and it's another 1:23:28.720 --> 1:23:31.800 free service out there, another free file sharing service. So 1:23:32.680 --> 1:23:35.160 it was I never had a problem with it. I 1:23:35.200 --> 1:23:37.240 only felt bad for Laws and James because they took 1:23:37.280 --> 1:23:40.680 so much abuse. But in terms of like, do I 1:23:40.760 --> 1:23:43.720 think that that it was wrong to sue Napster? No, 1:23:43.880 --> 1:23:46.479 I'll never believe that. And everybody who thinks differently just 1:23:46.600 --> 1:23:51.280 wasn't there. Well, I certainly believe that Napster was copyright 1:23:51.360 --> 1:23:54.200 infringement on a massive scale, and I thought that the 1:23:55.240 --> 1:23:58.599 lawsuits and the parties proved that, although I was under 1:23:58.640 --> 1:24:00.920 the illusion there would be some kind of step forward, 1:24:00.960 --> 1:24:06.200 some kind of licensing deal after that decision was made. Yeah, well, 1:24:06.240 --> 1:24:08.760 I mean again, I don't know. I don't know how 1:24:08.760 --> 1:24:10.559 you make a deal because it's so easy to just 1:24:10.600 --> 1:24:14.360 replicate what they're doing someplace else. So until you have 1:24:14.439 --> 1:24:17.120 the framework that it's clearly massive coyper and infringement and 1:24:17.160 --> 1:24:19.000 it's easy to shut down, there's no incentive to make 1:24:19.040 --> 1:24:22.400 a deal. Okay, but there were you know, the revenue 1:24:22.479 --> 1:24:25.120 from recorded music was going ultimately went down by a 1:24:25.200 --> 1:24:28.879 little bit more than half. What could the record companies? 1:24:28.920 --> 1:24:31.320 What could the industry have done? Because they proved their 1:24:31.320 --> 1:24:36.760 point legally, but substantially substitutively, it was a loss for 1:24:36.840 --> 1:24:40.200 there for at least a decade. Yeah, but what was 1:24:40.240 --> 1:24:42.960 the alternative? I mean, they you know, remember they tried 1:24:43.000 --> 1:24:46.760 to start downloading services fair player, press player or whatever 1:24:46.800 --> 1:24:48.960 they were called press player. I think they're not good 1:24:48.960 --> 1:24:51.280 at that. They needed Apple to come in and solve 1:24:51.320 --> 1:24:54.760 their problems. I mean, they needed somebody to devise a 1:24:54.800 --> 1:24:58.240 system that people could use economically and and easily. And 1:24:58.920 --> 1:25:00.400 there was no deal. I mean may because there was 1:25:00.439 --> 1:25:02.880 no system in place that could could replace what these 1:25:02.880 --> 1:25:05.599 people were doing. But in addition to dragging their feet, 1:25:06.040 --> 1:25:10.120 they were actively whole putting, putting their heels in the 1:25:10.160 --> 1:25:13.200 past and not jumping into the future. That but naps 1:25:13.280 --> 1:25:15.360 there was never the future. I mean whatever I'm talking 1:25:15.360 --> 1:25:18.479 about it forgetting Napster nas Napster's done. And then there 1:25:18.479 --> 1:25:21.040 were other companies as hard to get a license because 1:25:21.040 --> 1:25:23.240 then it became okay, we don't know what your business is. 1:25:23.640 --> 1:25:25.479 And I mean this gets very complicated. I don't want 1:25:25.479 --> 1:25:27.960 to go that far into it. But they were reluctant 1:25:28.360 --> 1:25:31.040 to make deals that might have been beneficial to them, 1:25:31.160 --> 1:25:35.480 or they were reluctant to give away there there assets 1:25:35.840 --> 1:25:38.080 for some startup company that's gonna make a lot of 1:25:38.120 --> 1:25:40.200 money on the back of the music. As I say, 1:25:40.240 --> 1:25:43.000 I think that the truth. I think they I think 1:25:43.040 --> 1:25:46.280 that's true conceptually and the other there. You know, it's 1:25:46.080 --> 1:25:48.240 just like people every you know, certainly once a week 1:25:48.280 --> 1:25:50.680 somebody emails me. At this late date, I have a 1:25:50.680 --> 1:25:52.439 way to save the music business, you know, I don't. 1:25:52.640 --> 1:25:55.640 I don't respond anyway. But it's like, even if you 1:25:55.720 --> 1:25:58.400 had this idea that was like eighteen years ago, no 1:25:58.439 --> 1:26:00.680 one even cares now, and we all learned unless you 1:26:00.680 --> 1:26:02.840 weren't connected to talk about, you know, if you unless 1:26:02.840 --> 1:26:08.479 you have relationships, nothing's gonna happen anyway. So uh, let's 1:26:08.479 --> 1:26:11.080 say you no listen. It's worked out at this point. 1:26:11.120 --> 1:26:13.880 But as I say, the business has changed completely. In 1:26:13.920 --> 1:26:18.000 my viewpoint, the major labels, by having such a narrow focus, 1:26:18.280 --> 1:26:21.200 are seating the territory and all this other music, and 1:26:21.920 --> 1:26:24.760 I think to their detriment. I don't disagree with you, 1:26:24.800 --> 1:26:27.240 but we'll see if we're right. I mean, the point 1:26:27.240 --> 1:26:31.680 of it is that that, um, you know, all this 1:26:31.800 --> 1:26:33.760 other music is not broken through on the level, at 1:26:33.840 --> 1:26:35.840 least on a streaming level. That that the stuff that 1:26:35.880 --> 1:26:38.760 the major labels chase does. And so if you're right, 1:26:38.840 --> 1:26:42.559 in two or three years, some random not hip hop, 1:26:42.920 --> 1:26:46.599 Atlanta trap band or artist is going to break through 1:26:46.720 --> 1:26:52.640 like Billie Eilish. Um, you know, um, but I'm not 1:26:52.680 --> 1:26:55.240 disagreeing with you, but it hasn't happened yet except for 1:26:55.240 --> 1:26:59.400 Billie Eilish. Okay, you represent Frank Ocean, right, Yes, well, 1:26:59.400 --> 1:27:03.360 I don't mean are firms afirmed those He famously delivered 1:27:03.360 --> 1:27:06.479 an album on his contract and then put out another 1:27:06.560 --> 1:27:10.800 album independently shortly thereafter. Yes, what was your viewpoint on 1:27:10.840 --> 1:27:13.719 that in terms of what I mean? Well, some people 1:27:13.760 --> 1:27:19.560 say that the label was blindsided, certainly legal under the circumstances. 1:27:19.600 --> 1:27:22.600 Is that your viewpoint? Or is there an obligation to 1:27:22.720 --> 1:27:25.960 the previous contract holder? I don't think there's an obligation 1:27:26.000 --> 1:27:28.599 in the previous contract holder. What record contract is ever 1:27:28.760 --> 1:27:30.639 fair in favor of the artist? The fact that they've 1:27:30.840 --> 1:27:33.920 made a mistake here, it's so rare. I mean, that's 1:27:33.960 --> 1:27:35.720 kind of what I live to take advantage of. And 1:27:36.120 --> 1:27:40.240 again it wasn't my particular case, but but I mean, 1:27:40.320 --> 1:27:43.000 these record contracts are heinous. They're eighty pages along and 1:27:43.120 --> 1:27:47.320 type this the size of a pen prick, and all 1:27:47.360 --> 1:27:50.479 they are is basically ways for that they can grab, right, 1:27:50.520 --> 1:27:53.840 So they label basically owns the artist. They want pieces 1:27:53.840 --> 1:27:55.639 of your tory, and they want to have These label 1:27:55.640 --> 1:27:58.600 waivers are just annoying beyond belief where you have to 1:27:58.600 --> 1:28:00.439 get a label waiver for your the US to do 1:28:00.479 --> 1:28:04.080 anything because they're basically owned by the label. Okay, you know, 1:28:04.320 --> 1:28:08.920 the interesting thing is is, you know, the major labels 1:28:08.960 --> 1:28:11.920 steal from the acts. Even if they go into royalties, 1:28:11.960 --> 1:28:13.679 they have a lot of ways they don't pay, etcetera. 1:28:13.960 --> 1:28:16.600 Why do the labels think they can get paid accurately 1:28:16.600 --> 1:28:19.840 on the touring and these other things. Well they if 1:28:19.880 --> 1:28:24.040 they think that, they're kidding themselves. I mean, as always said, 1:28:24.080 --> 1:28:27.840 there's nobody smarter at stealing money than a promoter. And 1:28:27.920 --> 1:28:29.720 they don't know that. And at least we know a 1:28:29.720 --> 1:28:31.439 little bit about what the promoters do. They just they 1:28:31.560 --> 1:28:34.800 started hiring ex promoters and to to to police this thing. 1:28:35.200 --> 1:28:41.639 The labels are not as they're not as what's untransparent. Uh, 1:28:41.720 --> 1:28:44.200 they're they're more transparent than they've been in the past. 1:28:44.280 --> 1:28:47.439 I don't really. I think there's you know, like the 1:28:47.479 --> 1:28:49.080 back of the day where they sell records out of 1:28:49.080 --> 1:28:50.960 the back of a truck and not report them or 1:28:51.000 --> 1:28:55.360 you know, want of Uh well it's thirty years past. 1:28:55.400 --> 1:28:58.720 It's actual limitation. But Electric Records had a CFO who 1:28:58.760 --> 1:29:01.320 had an account in Hawaii called Jackson Hawaiian. They code 1:29:01.320 --> 1:29:03.719 it with the free goods anything that went to Jackson, Hawaii, 1:29:04.200 --> 1:29:06.360 which was their They didn't have a distributor in Hawaii. 1:29:06.479 --> 1:29:08.400 So they sent all these records of Jackson. Why they 1:29:08.400 --> 1:29:10.559 would be coded as free goods and the artists wouldn't 1:29:10.560 --> 1:29:12.519 get paid on any records for like five years sold 1:29:12.520 --> 1:29:17.120 in Hawaii. There's not that anymore. They're owned by major corporations, 1:29:17.120 --> 1:29:21.519 they're public. They don't really steal overtly. They steal with 1:29:21.600 --> 1:29:24.559 the pen, you know. They basically, like I said, eighty 1:29:24.600 --> 1:29:28.640 pages of oppressive contract. They that's where they do it. 1:29:28.640 --> 1:29:31.800 It's not really the old school, you know. Well, what 1:29:31.920 --> 1:29:34.120 I find is, you know, they have these royalty clauses 1:29:34.439 --> 1:29:37.400 and they give them to completely unskilled people to calculate 1:29:37.439 --> 1:29:40.040 the royalty. Is just crazy. Yeah, you know, you get 1:29:40.080 --> 1:29:43.479 screwed that way. So what are the challenges you find 1:29:43.600 --> 1:29:47.960 artists have or clients have in today's business. I think 1:29:48.000 --> 1:29:51.960 I said it before, sustaining a recording career, not sustaining 1:29:52.040 --> 1:29:55.960 hey touring career, because most of the artists can, you know, 1:29:56.000 --> 1:29:58.040 build a touring base and sustain it by going out 1:29:58.080 --> 1:30:01.000 on the road and working. But it's really hard. The 1:30:01.040 --> 1:30:03.360 turnover is kind of incredible. I mean, you know, when 1:30:03.360 --> 1:30:05.559 you take an artists as big and as great as 1:30:05.560 --> 1:30:07.920 Taylor Swift, and you sit there and look, and every 1:30:07.920 --> 1:30:09.759 time she puts out a record, it's like, is anybody 1:30:09.840 --> 1:30:12.880 gonna care? I mean, she's really talented. People should care. 1:30:12.920 --> 1:30:15.839 But it's not like, you know, at least you'd get 1:30:15.880 --> 1:30:18.000 a slightly longer career. Back in the old days, you 1:30:18.040 --> 1:30:20.759 could extend your career. Now it's just really, every every 1:30:20.760 --> 1:30:23.559 record is an adventure. There's no you know, there's no 1:30:23.680 --> 1:30:26.120 guarantee that you're gonna you know, it's just because they've 1:30:26.120 --> 1:30:28.680 had past success, they're gonna future success. Not that there 1:30:28.720 --> 1:30:30.599 ever was, but there's even less than I think than 1:30:30.600 --> 1:30:34.360 there used to be. Right, So, if someone who's anticipating 1:30:34.360 --> 1:30:36.040 a deal with a major label comes to you, will 1:30:36.080 --> 1:30:40.559 you negotiate that? Yeah? Oh yeah, you know. I mean, look, 1:30:41.360 --> 1:30:44.559 there's interesting there's an interesting sub phenomenon with all these 1:30:44.720 --> 1:30:48.519 hip hop acts. Um, the ones that are blowing up virally. 1:30:49.120 --> 1:30:51.200 You know, they get to ten or twenty million streams 1:30:51.200 --> 1:30:53.960 on their own, the labels start bidding like crazy for them, 1:30:54.000 --> 1:30:57.240 so you can actually leverage the bidding war to get 1:30:57.240 --> 1:30:59.479 fair terms. Although most of the hip hop acts just 1:30:59.560 --> 1:31:03.120 care about the money. But I mean, to me, you know, 1:31:03.240 --> 1:31:05.040 maybe that's not wrong. I mean again, if you don't 1:31:05.040 --> 1:31:06.519 think you're gonna have a career, get as much money 1:31:06.560 --> 1:31:08.439 as you can today. If you think hip hop acts 1:31:08.439 --> 1:31:10.240 do or do not care about I care about money. 1:31:10.360 --> 1:31:12.360 So you know you'll get two or three million dollars 1:31:12.880 --> 1:31:14.600 as an advance for a hip hop act. And the 1:31:14.680 --> 1:31:16.760 label's bet is that I can take these twenty million 1:31:16.760 --> 1:31:19.599 streams and tournam into half a billion streams, which case 1:31:19.640 --> 1:31:23.080 I've covered my bat and then everything's gravy after that, 1:31:23.200 --> 1:31:28.240 you know, so it's a little bit risky. And you know, again, 1:31:28.280 --> 1:31:29.920 what I've always done in my career is trying to 1:31:29.920 --> 1:31:33.960 get the artists much of an option as I possibly can. 1:31:34.160 --> 1:31:36.519 So the number of albums they owe the record company, 1:31:36.560 --> 1:31:39.160 or number tracks the old the record company to a minimum, 1:31:39.200 --> 1:31:41.559 I try to give them as much opportunity to get 1:31:41.600 --> 1:31:44.160 free as possible, so that you know, when a new 1:31:44.200 --> 1:31:46.519 trend comes around, they do not beholding to a label. 1:31:46.680 --> 1:31:48.519 But you know, if you don't think your artist is 1:31:48.600 --> 1:31:49.880 gonna have a career and then get as much money 1:31:49.880 --> 1:31:52.160 as you possibly can, how about the opposite. You have 1:31:52.160 --> 1:31:56.160 an artist that's got some live traction, but nothing's going 1:31:56.200 --> 1:32:01.920 on in recordings. You know, I mean, let me give it. 1:32:01.920 --> 1:32:03.879 It's not a great example, but it's a good example. 1:32:03.960 --> 1:32:08.639 Anderson Park guys phenomenally talented. He does great live business. 1:32:09.000 --> 1:32:11.559 He's one track away from from having a massive career. 1:32:11.680 --> 1:32:14.680 So you just keep trying. I mean, you don't. I 1:32:14.680 --> 1:32:16.400 mean that's really kind of what you do. You just 1:32:16.479 --> 1:32:19.439 keep trying and uh and if worst comes to worst, 1:32:19.439 --> 1:32:23.639 hopefully you keep your touring base and heritage. Jack's should 1:32:23.640 --> 1:32:25.840 they even put out new music? What do you say not? 1:32:26.000 --> 1:32:28.559 I think they should. I think you know. I mean, look, 1:32:29.680 --> 1:32:33.040 I'm a big Beach Boys fan. Brian Wilson puts out records. 1:32:33.040 --> 1:32:36.439 Everybody talks about how terrible they are. They're not. They're 1:32:36.439 --> 1:32:38.880 not terrible. They're actually pretty good. And Paul McCartney, you'll 1:32:38.920 --> 1:32:41.000 have a couple of good songs on every record I'll have. 1:32:41.320 --> 1:32:44.400 They're not they're not day in life, but they're decent songs. 1:32:44.439 --> 1:32:46.760 And so you know, go do it. I mean, why 1:32:46.800 --> 1:32:48.640 wouldn't you do it? It It gives you know, unless you 1:32:48.720 --> 1:32:51.680 just don't want to. And then if someone listening to 1:32:51.760 --> 1:32:55.040 this who's thinking about a career as a music attorney, 1:32:55.040 --> 1:32:58.640 what would you tell them, Well, it's really interesting. For 1:32:58.680 --> 1:33:00.960 a period of time there was anybody thinking about doing 1:33:00.960 --> 1:33:03.519 a career as a music attorney. The business sucked and 1:33:03.600 --> 1:33:08.240 technology was where the action was. You know, um, you know, 1:33:08.320 --> 1:33:10.160 I mean again, if it's if you love music and 1:33:10.200 --> 1:33:12.960 you want to do something and hopefully things are looking up, 1:33:13.200 --> 1:33:15.559 you know, why not do it? Things that things do 1:33:15.680 --> 1:33:18.080 look a lot rosier than they did five years ago. 1:33:18.520 --> 1:33:21.160 And what's the easiest or best way for someone who 1:33:21.479 --> 1:33:24.160 does have a legal degree to get into music. It's 1:33:24.200 --> 1:33:26.479 not easy, and you just gotta find somebody like me 1:33:26.600 --> 1:33:29.479 or you know, done passes firm they were willing to 1:33:29.560 --> 1:33:31.280 take a chance on you, or go work at a label. 1:33:31.320 --> 1:33:32.679 If you can get a job at a label, it's 1:33:32.920 --> 1:33:34.559 it's like anything else, you know, you got to figure 1:33:34.600 --> 1:33:37.120 out how to get your way in. And so how 1:33:37.120 --> 1:33:41.840 many attorneys work in the firm now? Um, about about 1:33:41.840 --> 1:33:44.599 half of which are music lawyers and the other half 1:33:44.640 --> 1:33:48.639 are some litigators corporate guys. And how many support staff? 1:33:49.280 --> 1:33:52.280 But we have about ten paralegals and I don't know 1:33:52.320 --> 1:33:55.360 how many assistants are here. And in terms of management 1:33:55.360 --> 1:33:57.160 of the firm, are you involved in that at all? 1:33:59.400 --> 1:34:01.519 I like how to do most of that stuff? I 1:34:01.840 --> 1:34:04.559 worked too much? I really do Okay, So yeah, I 1:34:04.560 --> 1:34:06.599 know you're working around the clock. You get an email 1:34:06.640 --> 1:34:10.320 from you at twelve, When do you not work to 1:34:10.400 --> 1:34:14.439 service business? You're on all the time, and the thought 1:34:14.479 --> 1:34:19.720 of the thought of potentially retiring, Uh not yet. I mean, 1:34:19.800 --> 1:34:24.040 you know, I was I was witness and an expert witness. 1:34:24.040 --> 1:34:26.160 And Milt Milt Alan was a music lawyer that was 1:34:26.320 --> 1:34:29.680 tragically he was tragically killed by a cop texting on 1:34:29.760 --> 1:34:32.519 Mulholland when he was riding his bike, and it was 1:34:32.560 --> 1:34:36.240 a wrongful death case. And the insurance company was trying 1:34:36.240 --> 1:34:38.479 to show that he was sixty six year ols old 1:34:38.520 --> 1:34:40.479 when he died and he wasn't gonna have much of 1:34:40.479 --> 1:34:43.240 a career, was going to retire soon. So they interviewed 1:34:43.280 --> 1:34:44.760 me and said, well, what do you think I go? 1:34:45.400 --> 1:34:50.040 Like Jake Cooper was still pricingalized Lee Phillips in his eighties, said, 1:34:50.120 --> 1:34:52.519 music lawyers and basically all lawyers get taken out on 1:34:52.560 --> 1:34:55.160 the slab. They didn't retire, they just get taken out 1:34:55.160 --> 1:34:57.520 on the slab. And I we knew, Bill, why didn't 1:34:57.520 --> 1:35:00.479 give it up? No? Exactly, Peter, this has been wonderful. 1:35:00.520 --> 1:35:02.920 Thanks so much for your wisdom and your stories. Okay, 1:35:02.960 --> 1:35:03.479 thanks Bob,