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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.

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Speaker 3: We wanted to do something that highlighted our.

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Speaker 2: Relationship and what it's like to be siblings. We are

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Speaker 2: sibling railvalry.

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Speaker 4: No, no, sibling. You don't do that with your mouth, revelry.

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Speaker 2: That's good. I'm a very unprofessional podcaster in the sense that,

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Speaker 2: you know, you look at all these other podcasts and

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Speaker 2: everything's like Neon signs and it's their set deck and

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Speaker 2: all their mics are like sort of you know, just floating,

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Speaker 2: and you know, the production value is amazing. I'm in

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Speaker 2: my fucking kitchen. You know, half the time my family

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Speaker 2: was walking through. I put all my podcast shit in

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Speaker 2: like this cupboard and it's all tangled up. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm a mess. And I've been doing this for much

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Speaker 2: longer than probably most people. You know, we started four

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Speaker 2: plus years ago. I think back when they're only nine

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand podcasts now, I think, just like seven million.

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Speaker 2: What am I fucking doing? What am I doing? I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I like to talk. I don't know I

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Speaker 2: got you know, I'm in a mood, all right, I'm

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Speaker 2: in a fucking mood whatever. You know why I should

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Speaker 2: be in a great mood. I'm on the last day

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Speaker 2: of my liver cleanse. You understand what I'm saying. I

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Speaker 2: have been marching through this cleanse with you know, this

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Speaker 2: and this and that and bank bank bank and eating

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Speaker 2: and not eating, and I actually feel pretty good, lost

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Speaker 2: like six pounds. Yeah, I don't know, I'm just annoyed. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna stop talking. It's not the greatest way to

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Speaker 2: get into I guess, but I'm gonna come out of it.

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Speaker 2: Right now. I'm gonna come out of it. I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: talk about my cleanse with my next guests, Teaking and Sarah,

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Speaker 2: identical twins, uh Canadian indie pop sensations. I think they

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Speaker 2: toured with Neil Young, which is pretty fucking rad actually,

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Speaker 2: and excited to talk to them. Bring them in. Let's

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Speaker 2: have a convo.

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Speaker 1: Tremendously. Even though I went into preferences and said, start

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Speaker 1: with my video on.

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Speaker 2: Failure, No you're not. I'm a failure. I'm a failure.

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Speaker 2: You know why because in my family, I'm a failure.

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Speaker 2: Even though God, yeah, even though I'm not meaning like

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Speaker 2: I'm a successful actor. I've made a life for myself.

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Speaker 2: I have an amazing family. There's no world where anyone

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Speaker 2: would see me as a failure. Zero people. But the

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Speaker 2: bullshit that I put on myself, the expectations, this black

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Speaker 2: sheep mentality that I have sometimes where parents are famous, sisters,

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Speaker 2: huge brothers me and then I'm the fucking oldest kid

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Speaker 2: that is trying to get a job. You know what

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Speaker 2: I mean. Yeah, So I just gave you a little

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Speaker 2: bit of my internal psychology as to why sometimes I

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Speaker 2: see myself as a failure and why I have to

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Speaker 2: sort of meditate and go into a bigger space understand

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Speaker 2: that we're all going to be a big ball of

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Speaker 2: fire someday and none of this is going to matter.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. Anxiety is a waste of time.

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Speaker 2: So how's that to start off the podcast?

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Speaker 5: I've always thought about, like, because Tegan and I are

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Speaker 5: friends with we're friends with some twins who didn't end

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Speaker 5: up choosing to do have a career together and do

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Speaker 5: everything together, and I I think we've sort of like

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Speaker 5: avoided this idea of competition with each other by just

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Speaker 5: doing everything together and sharing everything. And even though I

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Speaker 5: think Tigan is more successful than I am, because if

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Speaker 5: you just look at you know which songs are more popular,

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Speaker 5: you know, even some of her instincts, her instincts to

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Speaker 5: decide to do things. Even if I was fully involved

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Speaker 5: in the thing that we ended up deciding to do,

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Speaker 5: even if we had sort of like equal partnership, I

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Speaker 5: would never have made the choice to do the thing.

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Speaker 5: So in some ways, it shows that she's been much

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Speaker 5: more successful and her instincts are more successful than mine.

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Speaker 3: So I'm also the I sort of have a black

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Speaker 3: sheet mentality in my mind.

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Speaker 2: That's so interesting. But Tigan or do you feel the

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Speaker 2: same way. I mean, are you like, well, no, that's bullshit,

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Speaker 2: because here, here's why, you know, here's why Sarah is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well absolutely, I think my narrative, I mean it's different,

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Speaker 1: but it's you know, lives in the same family for sure,

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Speaker 1: you know, Like I always thought Sarah was Sarah's more credible.

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Speaker 1: She's the more artistic and more niche and is more

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Speaker 1: intelligent and more studied and academic feeling. And I was

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Speaker 1: a little more like you know, I remember as a kid,

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Speaker 1: I was the messier one, Like my hair. We were

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Speaker 1: in karate, and like when I look back at the photos,

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Speaker 1: like I just kind of looked like a disaster. And

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Speaker 1: Sarah was always was like very put together, but now now,

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Speaker 1: I yeah, I do feel like a bit of a disaster.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think Sarah's very measured and controlled, and

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Speaker 1: she is much better with privacy and having boundaries. And

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Speaker 1: you know, we've lived our entire adult life in the

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Speaker 1: public eye, and I think that she's just better at

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Speaker 1: managing that. And I'm a people pleaser and so I

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Speaker 1: get myself into trouble a lot.

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Speaker 2: So interesting, you know, it's just so interesting from an

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Speaker 2: identical twins standpoint, which of course I don't know much about.

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Speaker 2: But how you know, you grew up together. You I'm

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Speaker 2: sure were raised the same way, yet there are parts

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Speaker 2: of your personality this goes back to sort of nature nurture,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, that are completely different, which

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Speaker 2: is just so interesting.

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Speaker 3: And do you do you have kids?

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Speaker 2: I have three? Yeah, I have seventeen, fourteen, eleven.

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Speaker 3: Woh wow, that's cool. I have a two year old.

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Speaker 3: But I am amazed I didn't.

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Speaker 5: I sort of like just thinking about the nature and

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Speaker 5: nurture thing, Like I look back at videos of him,

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Speaker 5: even like a year ago, and he's like like they

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Speaker 5: come out with a personality like they just like even

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Speaker 5: when he was just a sack of potatoes blobbing on

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Speaker 5: the couch or whatever, Like I just look at him

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Speaker 5: now and I'm like, oh, I already see the personality.

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Speaker 5: And he's got such a big personality already at two,

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Speaker 5: and he talks a lot, and he he's he just

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Speaker 5: I mean, I think my wife and I are really

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Speaker 5: smart and funny, but like he's so funny and smart already,

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Speaker 5: like he's just and I just am like that's got

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Speaker 5: to be Like we didn't get a dud. But I

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Speaker 5: don't think it's because we've put a lot of energy

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Speaker 5: into making him not that, Like it just feels like

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Speaker 5: he came like I feel like out of the box.

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Speaker 5: He's pretty like baseline extra and and I just think,

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Speaker 5: you know, in some ways, like the thing Tigan's talking about,

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Speaker 5: like there was no forget nature nurture for a second,

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Speaker 5: Like we came out of my mother, and Tegan looked messier,

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Speaker 5: like she just her bangs were a little messier, and

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Speaker 5: she just she literally came out of the womb like

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Speaker 5: oh shit, like we're I'm here, you know, Whereas I

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Speaker 5: sort of came out and I was like I'm here, mother,

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Speaker 5: you know, and.

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Speaker 3: It's like, I just feel like I feel like we

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Speaker 3: came out like that.

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Speaker 2: No, I know, I mean it's so true. I guess

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Speaker 2: when you're thinking about you guys coming out at the

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Speaker 2: same time, you would assume that there would be more

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Speaker 2: similarity there as far as that goes, But maybe not.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I couldn't agree more. My kids raised all

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Speaker 2: the same way, you know. I mean we're still raising them,

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Speaker 2: of course. You know there's nuance to it. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, everyone's different, so you're going to sort of,

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Speaker 2: you know, alter the way that you do things for

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Speaker 2: each child based on who they are. But you know,

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Speaker 2: my first one came out three weeks early. He looks

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Speaker 2: like a little baby bird. We didn't know what the

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Speaker 2: fuck we were doing, you know what I mean. And

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Speaker 2: we were trying to sleep train him and we feed

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Speaker 2: him then he can't sleep. It was just such panic

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Speaker 2: all the time. And you know, he's, of course my

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Speaker 2: most sensitive. That's why the first borns are mostly the

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Speaker 2: most sensitive, because we coddle the shit out of them

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Speaker 2: because we have no idea what we're doing. And then

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Speaker 2: Body Wilder Wilder is my first kid. Then Bodie's my

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Speaker 2: second kid. He literally came out with a tan and

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Speaker 2: like a joint and ray bands on, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean. Like his first picture, he's smiling and he's

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Speaker 2: he looks like he just came back from Hawaii. He's

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Speaker 2: like tan and uh, super chill and stubborn as fuck.

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Speaker 2: And he still is that way. And then I've got

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Speaker 2: Rio Ye, my daughter, who's just you know, pure performer, fabulous,

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Speaker 2: just she's just all sugar. She's just the most beautiful,

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Speaker 2: loving human being of all time. Yeah. All three different,

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Speaker 2: but I will say this humor. Their humor was super connecting.

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Speaker 2: You know. They all have the same idea of what's funny,

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Speaker 2: how to make you laugh, understanding jokes, and they've had

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Speaker 2: to deal with me as a father too, So I

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Speaker 2: feel like humor.

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Speaker 1: I don't have kids, but I feel like if I

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Speaker 1: didn't have a funny kid, it would be away. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I have a question all her just going back to

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Speaker 1: the hell has all started. But you're saying that you

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Speaker 1: felt like a black beef and you you know you

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Speaker 1: mentioned I think you said you're the oldest of your siblings. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: do you feel like you've always been even though you

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Speaker 1: admit that you're not a failure and from the outside,

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Speaker 1: of course, no one else would be that way. But

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Speaker 1: it was that a thing that you've always had, like

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Speaker 1: since you were a kid, or was it something that

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Speaker 1: came in oulhood as you guys pursued the career.

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Speaker 2: Now, I think this is deeply psychological. You know, everyone

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Speaker 2: deals with trauma or pain in different ways. You know,

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Speaker 2: my dad bailed when I was like five or six.

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Speaker 2: It was good for until I was like eleven or twelve.

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Speaker 2: Then it just went off the rails. And you know,

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Speaker 2: mom was single for a minute. Then she met Kurt,

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Speaker 2: and Kurt became my stepdad, and who was amazing. He

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Speaker 2: raised me. But it's just it was just a tumultuous

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Speaker 2: sort of childhood for me, you know, you know, and

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Speaker 2: I think it hurt my self esteem when it came

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Speaker 2: to work for some reason. From a social standpoint, I'm good,

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Speaker 2: I'm confident, and I'm happy, and you know, I love

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Speaker 2: being social, so I think it stems from that. But

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Speaker 2: it's funny you asked this because I was on a

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Speaker 2: walk yesterday and I was just going back and reflecting

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Speaker 2: upon my life, which I do often, and I started

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Speaker 2: to get really emotional because I have this strange need

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Speaker 2: for people to like me, and if they don't like me,

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Speaker 2: it almost is a dagger in a strange way. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to offend anyone. I don't want to hurt

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Speaker 2: anyone's feelings, of course because I don't want them to

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Speaker 2: feel bad, but also because I don't want them to

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Speaker 2: think bless of me or bad of me in any

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Speaker 2: way whatsoever. I'm not a confrontational person because confrontation to

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Speaker 2: me as a kid was just devastating and ruined me,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it's been a bit detrimental to my life,

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Speaker 2: you know, to where I can't step up, you know,

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Speaker 2: basically say what I feel and say what I want.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm always sort of couching it in something. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I'm forty eight, you know, And it's a forever journey.

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Speaker 2: But it's beautiful and self reflection is amazing, and I've

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Speaker 2: been doing it for a long long time. You know

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Speaker 2: where Kate went the other way, She was like, no,

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Speaker 2: this is my pain. Fuck this, I'm going to have

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Speaker 2: the greatest work ethic of all time. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be famous, I'm going to be outible. Whatd I do?

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Speaker 2: Nothing is going to get in my way so we

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Speaker 2: just went at it differently, you know. So yeah, and

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Speaker 2: then you try not to pass any of that shit

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Speaker 2: onto your kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's I mean, it's so interesting too,

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Speaker 1: because I mean I wouldn't suppose that it's the same

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Speaker 1: with you and Kate, but like, you know, because Sarah

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Speaker 1: and I are twins, and because we are with each

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Speaker 1: other all the time. You know, there have been years

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Speaker 1: in our career, me touring, you know, and on the road,

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Speaker 1: traveling for hundreds of days at a time, so we

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Speaker 1: almost use each other as mirrors and that can be

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Speaker 1: really helpful, Like if one of us is being an

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Speaker 1: asshole or stepping out of line or just kind of

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Speaker 1: being a jerk, it's like the other one is there

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Speaker 1: to be like, like, you know, but it's also this

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Speaker 1: thing where it's like when I see a strength of Sarah's,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of magnifies that that's a weakness in me.

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Speaker 1: And we used to say that we felt like as twins,

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Speaker 1: it was like they took all the things you can

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Speaker 1: be good and bad at and then divide it up,

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Speaker 1: so like the thing Sarah's really good at, I just

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Speaker 1: can't get good at, and the things that Sarah is

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Speaker 1: really bad at, Like tend to be things that I've

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Speaker 1: been really good at. And one of the things I

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Speaker 1: think I'm really good at is putting people at ease

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Speaker 1: and being very liked. And it has become a compulsion

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Speaker 1: where I really relate to what you're saying, Like I

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Speaker 1: absolutely I will do anything to avoid being disliked. I will,

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Speaker 1: Like there's just an example of people from our past

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Speaker 1: that we haven't had a relationship with in decades, you know,

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Speaker 1: but like when they message, like to come to a show,

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Speaker 1: or they message to like connect, it's like I will

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Speaker 1: take the time and I'll respond and I'll make time.

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Speaker 1: And Sarah's just like being like who fucking cares? Like

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Speaker 1: get over it, Like we don't know that person, we

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Speaker 1: met them once, Like why do you feel so bad

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Speaker 1: You've met that person one time. You don't owe them anything,

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Speaker 1: And I just it's weird. I feel the same thing

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Speaker 1: like when you said, like it's like a dagger if

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Speaker 1: someone doesn't like you. It's also like a dagger for

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Speaker 1: me if I think I've heard someone feeling a total confrontation.

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Speaker 1: It's like my wife, my wife and we don't fight.

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Speaker 1: We started going to a couple of causing. The therapist was

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Speaker 1: like watching us back and forth and was like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's lovely that you guys get along so well. But

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming, I mean, you're avoiding talking about things.

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Speaker 2: That are hard. You're here for a reason, You're there

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Speaker 2: a reason, right, Like what are you avoiding?

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Speaker 1: But I think that comes from I think that's a

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Speaker 1: product of being again like in a band with my

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Speaker 1: sister for twenty five years, Like I can't have conflict constantly,

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Speaker 1: so it means I've had to learn how to compromise,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes it's like a lot, you know. And but

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Speaker 1: I don't want to fight with there. I don't want to.

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Speaker 1: I don't want the two of us to be at

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Speaker 1: each other's road. So you cause you've just learned to

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Speaker 1: avoid things and you learn to let it go. But

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Speaker 1: if you're not really letting it go, it's like building.

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Speaker 2: I know, yeah, and that resent meent. You don't want

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Speaker 2: that resentment to build either, you know. No, that's that's

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Speaker 2: why the communication is great. That's why. And vulnerability has

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Speaker 2: been an issue for me too, with just being able

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Speaker 2: to talk about my feelings and the things that I

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Speaker 2: really am, especially with women interestingly enough, you know, with

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Speaker 2: men and with my kids, I'm right there. But with

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Speaker 2: my wife and with my mom and with my sister,

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Speaker 2: you know, it was really difficult for me to just

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Speaker 2: express how I feel about them in a positive way,

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Speaker 2: meaning like, hey, I just want to tell you, I

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Speaker 2: fucking I'm so in love with you and you're incredible.

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Speaker 2: And here's why I get scared. I'm like, yeah, my god,

286
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Speaker 2: it's like, you know, cringe as they say these days,

287
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Speaker 2: and it's just it's a protection. I'm just almost protecting

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Speaker 2: myself from you know, getting annihilated, even though that it's

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Speaker 2: completely irrational. You know, It's funny how the mind and

290
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Speaker 2: emotion can totally separate. I consider myself a pretty evolved

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Speaker 2: person sort of intellectually, but that I'm still a fucking

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Speaker 2: child when it comes to sort of my heart and

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Speaker 2: my emotions. You know.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, ah, I have a lot lot more empathy for

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Speaker 6: men now in later years.

296
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Speaker 5: Like I think we we grew up with a fairly strong,

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Speaker 5: you know, sort of like feminist perspective on things, and.

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Speaker 3: We and because I think also because we were gay.

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Speaker 5: I mean, we always were surrounded by men, but I

300
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Speaker 5: think that there was a sort of like like it

301
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 5: just it's it's always been like a second language or

302
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,280
Speaker 5: something to speak to men and just like be like, Okay,

303
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Speaker 5: I guess I'll change my expectations, not necessarily lower, but

304
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Speaker 5: just I have to expect something different from men and

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Speaker 5: the relationships I have with men than I.

306
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Speaker 3: Than I have with women.

307
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Speaker 5: And I feel like I have a lot of really wonderful,

308
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Speaker 5: substantial connections with men that I love, but it's always

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Speaker 5: felt different. And now I'm raising a sun and I

310
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Speaker 5: am just completely obsessed with like, how does how do

311
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Speaker 5: I change that? You know, like how do I? And

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Speaker 5: and not necessarily with him, because right now it's like

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Speaker 5: he doesn't know any you know, we don't know anything

314
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Speaker 5: at that He's like it's he doesn't understand gender and

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Speaker 5: he doesn't understand all of these things.

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Speaker 3: And so it's so beautiful because we're just like having

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Speaker 3: a relationship.

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Speaker 5: But it's made me re contextualize so many of my

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Speaker 5: relationships with men in my life and see their sensitivities

320
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Speaker 5: and see their sort of like differences in a really

321
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,879
Speaker 5: empathetic way. Because already, even with my son, I can

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Speaker 5: see the way people treat him and change the way

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Speaker 5: they treat him when they know he's a boy. Like

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Speaker 5: I don't know if you experienced this between your sons

325
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Speaker 5: and your daughter, but like every people constantly talk about

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Speaker 5: my son's body. They'll say, look at that little boss,

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Speaker 5: look at his legs, or look at his cheeks, or

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00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 5: look at his hair. And the people will like come

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Speaker 5: up to him on the street and they constantly are like,

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Speaker 5: you know, like commenting on his physical his physical being,

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Speaker 5: and and I'm like, I don't think they want to do

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Speaker 5: they were, I mean when I'm around my friends with girls.

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Speaker 3: But then I think about, you know, me and Tigan.

334
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Speaker 5: Everybody thought we were boys until we were like you know,

335
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,040
Speaker 5: well very different ages depending on what our hair looked like.

336
00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,040
Speaker 5: But we spent a good chunk of our childhood being misgendered.

337
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,160
Speaker 5: And I think about like the way that we were

338
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,000
Speaker 5: treated often as if we were boys, Like whether we

339
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 5: even understood it or not, we really passed through the

340
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,800
Speaker 5: world when we were little almost being treated like boys.

341
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Speaker 5: And I think that has like a huge has had

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Speaker 5: a huge impact on how we feel in our bodies

343
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Speaker 5: and how we feel, you know, in our.

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Speaker 3: Like our presence, Like we weren't like.

345
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,360
Speaker 5: Not to say that we would have been like weak

346
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,280
Speaker 5: or more vulnerable or emotional as girls. But like you know,

347
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Speaker 5: my dad was giving us a hammer and nails at

348
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,600
Speaker 5: like five years old and was like, go whack this

349
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 5: in the backyard.

350
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Speaker 3: You know, we weren't playing with princesses or whatever.

351
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Speaker 5: And I think that there's just like something about like

352
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:51,399
Speaker 5: the way I'm experiencing.

353
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Speaker 1: Are you blank? Dad didn't know that we were girls.

354
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Speaker 3: I don't know, it seemed like it when he was around,

355
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:03,240
Speaker 3: you know.

356
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Speaker 2: Right, No, No, I couldn't agree more. I mean, you know,

357
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,120
Speaker 2: getting into sort of the male species, and I think

358
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:18,640
Speaker 2: that we all have vulnerabilities and sensitivities that we were

359
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,040
Speaker 2: just more afraid to sort of let come to the surface,

360
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,600
Speaker 2: you know. And I think now it's it's it's it's

361
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,160
Speaker 2: almost allowed it. It's easier. It's not weak anymore. In fact,

362
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,880
Speaker 2: it's strength to me. I mean, being a vulnerable man,

363
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:38,199
Speaker 2: being someone who can talk about his feelings and you know,

364
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 2: be extremely candid about my life and the way that

365
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,680
Speaker 2: I feel in my emotions. I mean I feel power

366
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 2: in that, honestly, you know, I do, because you're yourself

367
00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,800
Speaker 2: number one, and then you're also allowing other people around you,

368
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:56,680
Speaker 2: other men around you, to you know, to feel those

369
00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 2: same things as well. You know, the minute you put

370
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 2: your shit out there, it just opens the gates for

371
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 2: other people to put their shit out there as well.

372
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting you're saying that because I think

373
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,480
Speaker 1: back to like the early part of our career when

374
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Speaker 1: we were mostly surrounded by men on the road. You know,

375
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,800
Speaker 1: it was just that was who mostly was in our

376
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 1: band and crew. It was just easier to We used

377
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:19,919
Speaker 1: to say men were kind of like dandelions in our

378
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 1: industry because like the head off one and like forty

379
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 1: would grow, you know, whereas like finding a woman and

380
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 1: was like impossible. And we just have spent like an

381
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 1: absurd amount of time in the company of only men,

382
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 1: and you know, at really pivotal and important times in

383
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 1: terms of brain development and emotional development in our early twenties,

384
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 1: and you know, compounded with the fact that we were

385
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 1: dealing with like becoming known people and public figures and

386
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 1: success and failures and criticism and like you know, the

387
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,639
Speaker 1: Internet and social media, like all this was happening, and

388
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,439
Speaker 1: we were often processing a lot of our insecurity in

389
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 1: the company of men, and it was hard, Like I

390
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 1: think about something more dramatic or isolating or lonely moments

391
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 1: and it's you know, sitting in a room with this

392
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,920
Speaker 1: family that you create to go out on the road

393
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,679
Speaker 1: with for years at a time and crying and being like,

394
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 1: you know, sitting magazine called us the folk wickan nightmare,

395
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 1: and they're just like they'd laugh, like they were like

396
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 1: who cares, you know, and we're just like twenty somethings

397
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: that are like wickeds don't deserve you know this, and like,

398
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,920
Speaker 1: you know, we're not folk, and like it's misogyny and

399
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 1: hopefully like you know, having just so wildly emotional and

400
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:33,959
Speaker 1: you know, being this in the presence of all these

401
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 1: men who were like not ros the thing, the feeling

402
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 1: part of it, the emotion part of it. They were

403
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,199
Speaker 1: just like who gives a shit? And how awful that was.

404
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 1: And it's so funny now because we, you know, have

405
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 1: crested forty and so a lot of the men in

406
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: our lives were getting older, and obviously our dad, our stepdad,

407
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 1: who's you know.

408
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 2: Helped raise us.

409
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,160
Speaker 1: They're all in their sixties now and they fucking cry

410
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: and talk with their feelings and it's always like about

411
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 1: their emotions and feelings and now their childhoods and I'm like, God,

412
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 1: this is exhausting, Like.

413
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 2: Right, get it together, Jesus, I'm done enough of the tears.

414
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 5: Boys.

415
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 2: But it's amazing.

416
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's amazing. But I just think, like how

417
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: funny it is, Like we go through that at different

418
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 1: times in our lives, you know, and like our family

419
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,360
Speaker 1: now is just full of men who want to talk

420
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 1: about their feelings and all of those women who've been

421
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: like overprocessing for few decades, they're just like, uh.

422
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,199
Speaker 2: No, no, I know. And then and then you know,

423
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,919
Speaker 2: it's also watching my boys. My daughter is very expressive,

424
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, she's very emotions are right there,

425
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 2: you know, right at the tip. But watching my sons

426
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 2: and it's been really cool because they're very communicative with

427
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 2: their friends. Sometimes with their parents, it's like I was

428
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 2: school fine or whatever, you know what I mean, It's

429
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 2: just normal teenage bullshit. But watching them deal with their

430
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 2: friend is very communicative and they're not sort of holding back.

431
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 2: And you know, he's had a girlfriend now for a

432
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 2: year over a year and a half, and he's in

433
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 2: eleventh grade, so he's child love and you know, watching

434
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 2: him sort of navigate, you know, his whole world with

435
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 2: his girlfriend and her friends, it's it's interesting and and

436
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: and hearkening back to sort of my childhood and reflecting

437
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: upon it, it was it was not like that. It

438
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 2: was different. There's much more synergy now, there's much more

439
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 2: communication now, feelings it's okay to to talk about. So

440
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 2: it's it's it's cool.

441
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

442
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 2: I dig it. When did you guys know that you

443
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 2: were both gay? I mean, how did that? How did

444
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 2: that happen? And did one know before the other?

445
00:23:54,400 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 5: Yes, I I think circumstantially because I happen to meet

446
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 5: someone as a young person, you know, my best friend

447
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 5: who you know, eventually became my first girlfriend. It sort

448
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 5: of put me into a knowing place a lot sooner

449
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 5: than Tagan. So I was, you know, I was like

450
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 5: fourteen when I started having this relationship with my best

451
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 5: friend in secret, you know, from from most everyone, though

452
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 5: after years of sort of being together and not being together,

453
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 5: it was pretty obvious to I think most people in

454
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,719
Speaker 5: our life that there was something extra going on.

455
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 3: But I knew.

456
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 5: I sort of had a sense of myself very young,

457
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 5: like I recognized that the way girls made me feel,

458
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 5: especially contrasting that with the way boys made me feel

459
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 5: like I was really into boys.

460
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 3: Like actually, my mom has all these really.

461
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 5: Funny journal entries in our baby books that are like,

462
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 5: you're obsessed with boys, you love boys, like, but she misunderstood,

463
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 5: Like our obsession with boys was like we were like

464
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 5: we wanted to be boys, you know, we were like

465
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 5: boys with the I want to hang out with Colin

466
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 5: and Cameron, and like I was like, I want to

467
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 5: hang out with boys, and my mom was like, you know,

468
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 5: you little, you're gonna get pregnant, you know, like whatever,

469
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 5: and I was just like, you know, yeah, so not.

470
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 2: But like she.

471
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 5: Totally misunderstood, you know, like that my obsession with boys

472
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 5: was about finding kids that I wanted to feel like

473
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 5: or look like, or play with or whatever, and girls

474
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 5: would just sort of undo me, you know, like I

475
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 5: just my mom's friends would come over, you know, she

476
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 5: was in school like when we were kids, Like she

477
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 5: got back to college and all her like cool hipster

478
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 5: college girlfriends would come over and taken, and I would

479
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 5: like hide in.

480
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 3: The bedroom, like we were just it.

481
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 5: And I didn't know quite how to like put it

482
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 5: into context except to say that I felt completely comfortable

483
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 5: with my dad and stepdad and they're like construction hockey player,

484
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 5: macho friends. But if one woman wearing like a doc

485
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,239
Speaker 5: boots and like lipstick came over to the house, I

486
00:25:58,280 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 5: was like, I wish I was dead, and I don't.

487
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 5: I couldn't figure that out, you know, I just had

488
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,239
Speaker 5: no idea. So yeah, once I found a girlfriend, I

489
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 5: was like, oh, oh, I understand what's happening. Like this

490
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 5: is like, this is what this whole thing was. So yeah,

491
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 5: and Tigan I looked at As soon as I figured

492
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 5: out this thing about myself, I was like, well, obviously

493
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 5: Teagan is gay as well.

494
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 3: It just was so obvious to me. There was no

495
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 3: confusion for me.

496
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 2: So you almost knew before Teagan. You're like, no, not

497
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 2: just because you're my twin sister, but just knowing who

498
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: I am now and seeing who you are, I can

499
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 2: see that this.

500
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 3: I just thought we were the same. Like, I just

501
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 3: was like it didn't even occur to me.

502
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 5: I wasn't like I wonder if Teagan also is gay,

503
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 5: Like I was like, she's gay, right, Like I was like,

504
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 5: she's gay, there's no question.

505
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

506
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: And I think for me seeing Sarah, like I was

507
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: clearly aware that what was going on behind the scenes

508
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: in Sarah's private life, but we didn't talk about it,

509
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: which I do understand is kind of odd. Like I

510
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: think people make an assumption because we were the same

511
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: age and we were going through the same things that

512
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: we confided in one another, but we didn't.

513
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 2: We were, you know, really interesting.

514
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: We were kind of like possible to each other when

515
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: we were teenagers, Like there was you know, I think

516
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: because we were going through so many of the same things,

517
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: there was like a desperate need for privacy, and we

518
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: antagoni one another around fectuality. Actually, like you know, I

519
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: think that there were breaches on my vulnerability.

520
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a vulnerability.

521
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: It was like don't yeah, yeah, I think. I think

522
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: we struggled. We struggled to understand it and be comfortable

523
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: with it, and so we took it out on one another,

524
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: and so it didn't feel like necessarily a safe place

525
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: to go talk about it. But I know, for myself,

526
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: I really relate everything Sarah said about women growing up.

527
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: I knew that there was something that was different about me,

528
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: Unlike Sarah, though I didn't have any shame about it.

529
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: I never felt like I wasn't laying in bed thinking

530
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: about girls and then being like, you know, giving myself

531
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: lashes or something like that. Like there was no there

532
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: was no homophobia in the world, at least in my

533
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: world really. But once I did start to act on

534
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: my feelings with girls and establish crushes and talk about

535
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: it out loud and have relationships, I definitely felt really,

536
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: really nervous to kill Sarah. I was so worried to

537
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: she would think I was copying her, Like I mean,

538
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: we were teenagers. It was just like the weird thing

539
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: where it was like, this is Sarah's thing, and again,

540
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: like we were sort of ustle when it came to

541
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: this sort of stuff and each other, you know.

542
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: Where that was like Sarah's like, that's bullshit. I was

543
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: gay first, yeah, Or she'd be like, you know.

544
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: My best friend would come over and it was clear

545
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: we were hooking up, and Therapy would just antagonize up

546
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: like she'd be like, clearly, Jamie's your girlfriend, and it

547
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: was like, you know, we would be like, you know,

548
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: we'd all be like fighting and screaming and slamming, and

549
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: so I think it was not until we were older

550
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: that we and really it was when we started our

551
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: career and we started to do press and people were

552
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: acting us about our sexuality that we sort of listen

553
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: to each other talk about what it was like, which

554
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: again is a full theme and in therapy both for

555
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: both of us. It's just so much of our life

556
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: when unspoken, and we do this thing where we talk

557
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: about things that matter to us in the press or

558
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: on stage, and that's how we learn about each other.

559
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: It's like insane. But yeah, we never really talked about it.

560
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: That's really interesting. But it was there a moment where

561
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: it was like, all right, here's who I am, here's

562
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: who's here's who I am. I love you, love you great.

563
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: We could do it.

564
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: I guess we could do it right now. We could

565
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: do it like T and I love you. I know

566
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: you're gay.

567
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 3: You're doing right.

568
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: No, I came out.

569
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 5: I came out when I was eighteen, and he didn't

570
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 5: come out for another year or two, and there was

571
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 5: no you know, there was no coming out card and

572
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 5: gifts or anything. It was just kind of like, again,

573
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 5: this is such a different time, right, like we're talking

574
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 5: about nineteen ninety eight.

575
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was.

576
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 3: It was so tumultuous.

577
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 5: I was trying to establish my identity and privacy and

578
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 5: I was I was like fighting with my mom, who

579
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 5: you know, initially had a really difficult reaction to me

580
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 5: being gay.

581
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: And so she did, what if, Sorry, where did you

582
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: guys grow up in Canada? What part all great? We

583
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 2: grew up in com Okay cool and my mom had

584
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: been like she was.

585
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 3: Like, it's a great town.

586
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 5: We had like a very liberal, very cool, open minded family.

587
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 5: Very my mom's friends were gay. Like half the time,

588
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 5: I felt like my mom was grooming us to be gay.

589
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 5: She'd be bringing home like indie movies with gay people

590
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 5: in them, and I'd be like, does she know, like

591
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 5: what's happening? So I was very surprised by her reaction.

592
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 5: But then I think, you know, it's like contextually I

593
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 5: understand now, like there was a real sort of like

594
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 5: she was caught off guard.

595
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 3: There was a morning of like what she imagined for me,

596
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 3: you know.

597
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 5: So that was difficult, and I wasn't looking for comfort

598
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 5: from Teagan. I found comfort in my girlfriend, you know,

599
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 5: Like I was like I was like in my own

600
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 5: world where I was like I'm not I was sort

601
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 5: of trying to break away.

602
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 3: From the family unit. And then by the time Teagan came.

603
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 5: Out, it was so different like her, the reaction from

604
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 5: our friends and family. It was like everybody got to

605
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 5: do over, you know, So whoever had sort of stumbled

606
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 5: or got it wrong with me, yeah, I was able

607
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 5: to do a much better job with Teakens.

608
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, I that's so true. You were like

609
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 2: you're a bit of the You're the guinea pig, you know.

610
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 2: I mean I can relate to that with my kids

611
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: because I had a conversation with Wilder, my oldest, and

612
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 2: we were going through something and I said, look, man,

613
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 2: you know you're figuring it out as a young man,

614
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: as a young teenager with your hormones raging. I'm fucking

615
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: forty seven at the time, now forty eight, and you

616
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 2: are my first so I am equally figuring it out.

617
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: I'm going to make mistakes, and you're going to make mistakes.

618
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 2: And I said, and and you are my and the

619
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: other kids are lucky, body, and real are lucky because

620
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to have better knowledge of knowing what to

621
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 2: do because of you, you know. So it's I can

622
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: relate to that, and like you're the guinea pig. And

623
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: now it's like, okay, well we figured Sarah out. Now

624
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: we know now Teagans.

625
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: My mom gave me a couch i'n't been with my

626
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: girlfriend forly three seconds, and my mom bought up a couch.

627
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 3: Don't It's beautiful to.

628
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 5: Be able to recognize, though, that that you're wrong and

629
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 5: come to your kids and say that. And I think

630
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 5: that's a huge generational change because, certainly in our adolescence,

631
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 5: multiple timess in our you know, in our.

632
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 3: Teenage years where things were really tumultuous.

633
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 5: Really really pivotal, like seminole moments, our parents were able

634
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 5: to come to us and say, wow, we really handled

635
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 5: that wrong, or you know, I read there specifically, I

636
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 5: remember when Tegan and I were writing our memoir about

637
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 5: our high school years, which is when we launched our

638
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:42,719
Speaker 5: career and when we came out, so it was sort

639
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 5: of covering a lot of those kind of topics we're

640
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 5: kind of talking about right now. One of the stories

641
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 5: that sort of was unearthed was this moment where our stepdad,

642
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 5: who we adored and who was extremely maternal with us

643
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 5: and loved us and adored us, and you know, he

644
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 5: was he was wonderful, but he was also like, you know,

645
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 5: a guy a like thirties playing hockey working on a

646
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 5: construction site didn't always have like the most liberal politics,

647
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 5: or certainly didn't have the most liberal language at that time.

648
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 5: And I remember him using a disparaging word, you know,

649
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 5: to talk about Kirk Cobain, who we were obsessed with

650
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 5: Nirvana and obsessed with Kirk Colebain. And Tigan tells this

651
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 5: really beautiful story and the memoir about the confrontation invite

652
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 5: ultimately that they had about the way he was talking

653
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 5: about Kirk Cobain, and he came back and was able

654
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 5: to sit down and apologize and process that moment. And

655
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 5: those are the kinds of I think, those are the

656
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 5: kinds of stories and moments that are so new generationally.

657
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 5: Like I just don't think I can't even imagine my

658
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 5: grandparents sitting down with my mom I like nineteen sixty

659
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 5: whatever and being like.

660
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 3: We are sorry or you know whatever we did. You know,

661
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 3: we're wrong, and we didn't.

662
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 5: Have the institutional knowledge of like this would fuck you up,

663
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 5: Like they didn't have any of that, whereas like our

664
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 5: parents did. And it's so heartening to know to hear

665
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 5: you talk about it, and so I feel so fortunate

666
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 5: to be able to like, you know, I'll fuck up

667
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 5: my kid, but at least I'll be able to tell him,

668
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 5: how why I fucked him up?

669
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 3: Why I'm foxing up? Like people will be able to

670
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 3: share those things either.

671
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: I say this all the time and on the podcast too,

672
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 2: I say, it's not about if you fuck up your kids,

673
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: it's just to what degree. I mean, that's it. You know,

674
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 2: we're all screwing them up one way or another. It's

675
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 2: just the way it goes.

676
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: You know, it's validating in a way. I you know,

677
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: obviously our parents were really young when they had us.

678
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: So when we graduated high school, they were they had

679
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: just turned forty. And you know, I'm in a couple

680
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: of days, Sarah and I turned forty four, and like.

681
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: Wow, that's young. Had your parents had you guys young?

682
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,919
Speaker 1: They were children. The fact that we're alive, the fact

683
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: that we have been so successful, is actually insane really

684
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: to comprehend. But they were so young that they were

685
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: barely they had just turned forty when we graduated high school.

686
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: And when I think about that now, like when I

687
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: think about having eighteen year olds who I have just

688
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: set it into the world, I cannot. The other day,

689
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: we were at a photo shoot and the assistant on

690
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: set was twenty seven, and we started do math and

691
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, I could have had you,

692
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: like I would have been young. But I'm like, you

693
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,240
Speaker 1: know your I think your forties are really an interesting

694
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: time because it's when you start to remember your parents

695
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: and you start to remember like as children, as you

696
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 1: were a child, and all those feelings emotions. And they

697
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: know how cliche this is, but it's like all those

698
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 1: feelings emotions you had for them where you were like there,

699
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: my mom was not in high school, you know, she like, yes,

700
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: she was forty through her second divorce, you know, like

701
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: she was going to college and working and raising two

702
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: freaks who were doing acid and thinking out a pool constantly.

703
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: Like the fact that she didn't murder up is an

704
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,439
Speaker 1: achievement that they should be about degrees at university before.

705
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 1: Like it just it's unreal. And I just think the

706
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: context that we have now, not just generationally, but just

707
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: as the age that we're all at, you can start

708
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: to look back and be like, being a human being,

709
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: it's hard. Every age is different, and developmentally you're constantly

710
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: under a new challenge because you're the world with new perspective.

711
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's so true. It's so true. And

712
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 2: the appreciation of your parents. I can't even explain how

713
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 2: much I can relate to that. Once you get older

714
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 2: and then you don't have kids, But once you do

715
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 2: have kids, you understand all of a sudden, oh my god,

716
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: they love me so fucking much. And now I understand

717
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 2: how they love me and why they love me so much.

718
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it really opens up your eyes to sort

719
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: of the love and appreciation that your parents have for you,

720
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: and just they just want you to be okay, you know,

721
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 2: as far as LGBTQ and all that stuff, especially you

722
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 2: guys growing up in Canada. This could be a stupid,

723
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: weird question, but as opposed to America, like, is there

724
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 2: more leniency, is there more accepting? You know, are the

725
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: Canadian or is the Canadian cultures as broad the broad

726
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: idea of it, Yeah, because obviously everyone looks at the Canadians,

727
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 2: Oh they're so nice, and yeah, you know, I've met

728
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: a lot of asshole Canadians by the way.

729
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that all the bad parts of America

730
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: are in Canada too. I mean, you know, we've got

731
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: pretty much all the same problems and issues and bad qualities,

732
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: just on a smaller scale. I will say that because

733
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: we don't have entire networks devote it to twenty four

734
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: hour breaking news. It feels slightly less fire alarmy and

735
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: culturally here and we're clearly not as a stuffed with politics.

736
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: But I would say growing up career, we had as

737
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: little representation as American kids or any kids really around

738
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: the world. You know, we held on to the tiny

739
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: pieces of representation that would poke our head out. But

740
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: certainly as adults and like living in the city we

741
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: live in and having a career we have, we've certainly

742
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: experienced homophobia. But I think there's a more mind your

743
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: own business attitude to Canadians. Religion is not involved in politics.

744
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 1: You do not have you know, every politicians ing off

745
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: with God bless Canada. It's not like that. So I

746
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: don't feel that there's as much externalized homophobia hate, But

747
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: that's coming from a really privileged this you know can

748
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: you know, at times very fam like day person. So

749
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: I don't experience the kind of hate that some of

750
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: my friends who are trans or are more masculine, you know,

751
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 1: like I. But I would say, like generally speaking, I mean,

752
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: you know, we had equal rights in Canada nearly a

753
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: decade before America. So like you know, things have definitely

754
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: changed here quicker, but all of the trans rollbacks and

755
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: pushbacks on trans people and hate and paring down of

756
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: high flags like that all happens here. Just it's I

757
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: think it happens on a smaller scale. But we focus

758
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: a lot of our time and energy, Sarah and I

759
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: into philanthropy. We have a foundation. We spend a lot

760
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: of time funding left of center organizations that are overlooked

761
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 1: by the big funders. And you hear the horror stories.

762
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it's all still bad, but we, you know,

763
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 1: are doing our part to hopefully make it better.

764
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, so documentary, let's talk about the documentary. I

765
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: want to hear about it, and then and then the

766
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: cat if you can, if you can graze over the

767
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 2: cat fishing thing, it's so interesting to me. Yeah, I mean,

768
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: we spent so much time philosophizing that, I you know,

769
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: we did.

770
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: It's great.

771
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 2: I think it's everything else.

772
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: But honestly, there's I'm excited for people to see it.

773
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: The movie is called Fanatical the Catfishing of Teagan and Zarah,

774
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: and it comes out on the eighteenth of October on Hulu.

775
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,439
Speaker 1: So I don't want to give too much away, but yeah,

776
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: it was a crazy situation. You know. In twenty eleven,

777
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: some fans reached out to our management and said, one

778
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: of us has been talking to Teagan online. We've been

779
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 1: exchanging emails for years, but it's recently gotten kind of weird.

780
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: She's passed on unreleased songs, Cassport Scans gave me access to,

781
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: you know, an I disc which for the kids listening

782
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: is the old sc version of the cloud and it

783
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: seems wrong. Can you verify if it's Teak and that's

784
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: actually talking to us? And of course it was not me,

785
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: And it sort of started this unreal fifteen year journey

786
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: that we've been on to try to stop this person

787
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: who repeatedly has gotten access to, you know, people in

788
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: our world. At some point had access to an old

789
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: email of mine and was using it to fish people

790
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 1: I know, people I work with. And what has sort

791
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: of unraveled over the last fifteen years is just dozens

792
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,919
Speaker 1: and dozens of people all over the world who got

793
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: into a friendship, in some cases a sexual or romantic

794
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: relationship with a person who's been pretending to be me

795
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: and is is not me and a couple of years ago,

796
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: and we never talked about it publicly. We did put

797
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: warnings up, you know, on our website, and we would

798
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: you know, we would warn people on social media and

799
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: remind them like we don't have personal accounts, like only

800
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: our official accounts. You know, we do what every band

801
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: and every public person does, and increasingly we just have

802
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: had less and less to do with social media. But

803
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: you know, we were definitely warned people, but we never

804
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: ever came forward and told this story. And a couple

805
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: of years ago, I just got into my head that

806
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: I wanted to write the story down and I wrote

807
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: a story called Fake Tagan about what happened and how

808
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: it affected Sarah and I and my life and my

809
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 1: friends and how I communicate and our relationship to our fans,

810
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: and how violating it was, and sort of posed the

811
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: question at the end of the story like did we

812
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: do everything we could have done? I feel guilty. This

813
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: is my appevement people pleasing. I was like, did we

814
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: do enough to help prevent this from happening? What are

815
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: the other victims feeling? Have they been able to move on?

816
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 2: So this spread is it's not even about you, essentially,

817
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 2: I mean, of course it is, but this thing was

818
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 2: went viral. I guess, like it's a viral catfish.

819
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 1: It's like people from all over the world came forward

820
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: and we're like I was talking to Tigan for four years.

821
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 1: We sent like nine hundred emails. I mean people the victim.

822
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 1: You know, there was a spectrum of people. You know,

823
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: some would talk to fake again three times and be

824
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: like this is her. Other people had long friendships and

825
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: then you know in a handful of cases that we

826
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: found people who had actual romantic, like sexual relationships.

827
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 2: Is just one person we I mean, I want to

828
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 2: ruin the movie, like, don't don't ruin it. Don't ruin

829
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 2: it because I am a huge documentary docuseries fan, Like

830
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 2: I'm nutty. When does it come out?

831
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: By the way, it comes out on October eighteen, I'm

832
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: very excited.

833
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 2: This sounds unreal. How did you decide to because you

834
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 2: were so private about it, how did you decide to

835
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 2: all of a sudden say, you know what, this is

836
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: a story I want to tell.

837
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: You know, I've been thinking about it a lot, and

838
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: I had told the story. I hadn't told the story

839
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: start to finish to someone in a long time. And

840
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: I told a friend this, like what I remembered and

841
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: took like two hours, and he was just like, friend,

842
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: I'm freaking out, like this is crazy. You should write

843
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: this down. So I wrote the story and then I

844
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: was like, I want to make a podcast. I think

845
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: I want to investigate this again work In the beginning,

846
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: I've never talked to any of the other victims, so

847
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: I was like, I want to call the victims. And

848
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: I pitched it to this woman, Jenny Elish was a

849
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: writer and works at Serious Radio and it's just like

850
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: a legend in the music industry. And I was like,

851
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to pitch this to Jenny Liskw and she

852
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 1: had just worked on Britney Versus Your documentary, directed by

853
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 1: Aaron Lee Carr. And Jenny called me like, I don't

854
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: know two hours after I sent her the story, and

855
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: she said, this is fucking nuts. I've never heard a

856
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: story like this before. I want to take this to

857
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: Aaron Lee Carr. So Aaron and Jenny and I got

858
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: on a call like a week or so later or something,

859
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: and Aaron was like, this is not a fucking podcast,

860
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: you guys. Yeah, And two.

861
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 2: Years later, here we are, Holy and Sarah, how did

862
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 2: you feel about all of it? I mean, I know

863
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 2: it wasn't you, but essentially it was was it? I mean,

864
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: or was it? There's the twist in the dock.

865
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 5: I think that I think that film does a pretty

866
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 5: good job of really centering Teagan and her Rais obviously,

867
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 5: but you know this, this had a huge impact on

868
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 5: my life and really, like you know, our friends and

869
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 5: family are our business relationships, and you know, has has

870
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 5: definitely affected the trajectory of our band. I mean, we

871
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 5: have made really specific choices because of this situation. And

872
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 5: you know, in some cases, I think it was actually positive.

873
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 3: Like I think we.

874
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 5: Needed to be more mindful of boundaries and our fan base.

875
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 5: I think we were a bit naive, you know, to

876
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 5: think that our fan base was so special that they

877
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 5: would never do the things that other fan bases sometimes

878
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 5: do to artists.

879
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 3: And you know, I think this was healthy. Like I

880
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 3: think at some.

881
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 5: Point maybe we needed to have a bit more of

882
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 5: a disconnected relationship from our fan base, Like we were

883
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 5: really in with our fans, like we were really like

884
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 5: we saw ourselves as being them. And I don't think

885
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 5: that that, you know, can be sustained even if you

886
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 5: don't have someone pretending to be you.

887
00:44:58,719 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 3: For fifteen years.

888
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 5: Like I think at some point it's healthy to say

889
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 5: I make things for people, and I love the people

890
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 5: who love our things. But we're not friends, you know,

891
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 5: like we are we are, we have a we have

892
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 5: a relationship, but it's not the one we think we're having.

893
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 5: So But I'm also really different than Togan, Like we

894
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 5: started a nice way to bookend this conversation.

895
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 3: I'm not as worried about pleasing people.

896
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 5: And I feel like it's okay to have boundaries and

897
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 5: set sort of expectations and if if people sort of

898
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 5: push that, it's okay to say no, thank you, or

899
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 5: I don't want that or that doesn't make me feel good,

900
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 5: or I don't want to, you know, sign autographs in

901
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 5: a dark alley at two am.

902
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 3: Anymore.

903
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 5: I want to say nice to see you by and

904
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 5: walk into the bus, you know, or whatever.

905
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 3: Like I was more comfortable with that. And I also.

906
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 5: Like living a really private life. I really admire people

907
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 5: who can manage fame and celebrity on a on a level.

908
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 5: I've seen it, and I've had brief moments of experiencing

909
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 5: some version of it. It's not for me, Like I

910
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 5: like my life. I don't want to be famous, and

911
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 5: I like that we are a well known band and respected.

912
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 5: But when I go home, I love that I just

913
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 5: completely disappear and that you know, that all sort of

914
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 5: was happening, like those conversations were happening around the time

915
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 5: that this started. So yeah, it had a huge impact

916
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 5: because it was like case in point, we have somebody

917
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 5: pretending to be teaing like, let's disappear, you know. It

918
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 5: was like kind of like I used it to explain

919
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 5: my own decision to kind of move away from that

920
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 5: sort of trajectory in our career.

921
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, I mean it's so weird too, thinking of

922
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 2: it's almost like this, whoever this person or people are,

923
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: you know, which may or may not be revealed in

924
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 2: the documentary, which everyone does need to go see because

925
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 2: it sounds amazing there. It has to be some sort

926
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: of a mental illness. I mean for someone to be

927
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 2: able to dedicate this much time to this picturing the

928
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: other side them sitting mine their keyboard being like, I mean,

929
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 2: there's got to be something fucking really wrong with that person.

930
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely think. Top of mind when we started

931
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: this project, you know, was how do we tell this

932
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 1: story ethically and compassionately because it's not just about fatigue,

933
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: and it's about the victims. You know, these people were

934
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,439
Speaker 1: all online as diehard fans looking to try to find

935
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: my They wanted to be in touch with me, right, so,

936
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: you know, so it's like they were unsuspecting and they

937
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: got tricked. But many of them apologized when I interviewed

938
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: them and was like, well, what was I doing? I

939
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: mean I was a kid, but I was like online

940
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: looking for your personal phone number and email like I

941
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: you know. So there was like the sides for this,

942
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: like where it was like, we need to be really

943
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: compassionate and empathetic. We're going to tell this story. We

944
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: shouldn't be shaming anyone. But yeah, I think Aaron the

945
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,760
Speaker 1: Carr who directed it, you know, she directed with ten films,

946
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: and I think this is her specialty is telling stories

947
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: in a compassionate and ethical way. And it was a

948
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: part of our whole team's conversation pretty consistently throughout was

949
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: what is appropriate to put in here? There is so

950
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: much that did not make it a movie, like wild

951
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 1: stuff that we were like, can we preparing like that?

952
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: Think gaming? Like Yeah, there was like some weird conversations

953
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,479
Speaker 1: we had to have and ultimately, you know, I think

954
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: all of us as a team, but Aaron, as our

955
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 1: fearless leader, understood we sort of pivoted. This isn't a

956
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: who done it. The point was not to unmask or

957
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: ruin fake Tigan's life. You know. My personal feeling is

958
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 1: that many of the people who are involved with this

959
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: have some mental health stuff, and I think this became

960
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: a bigger conversation about parasocial relationships and you know, fandoms

961
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 1: and taking care of yourself and listening to your instincts.

962
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: Every single person I interviewed, everythingle victim at some point

963
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 1: ignored their instincts at some point was like something feels off,

964
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: and it's like, don't ignore your people.

965
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 5: We do.

966
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 2: We all do that. We all do that because there

967
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 2: is that little kernel of like, oh, it's that's the

968
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 2: addictive quality, that's that's the adrenaline rush, that's that that

969
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 2: release of that you know, chemical like, oh gosh, I

970
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 2: know it's wrong, but I have to go to the

971
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 2: other side. Really good to meet you guys, really fun.

972
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,720
Speaker 2: Thank you for for coming on and I will be watching.

973
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 2: I'm very excited about this so much more. I wanted

974
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: to talk to you guys about next time, next time,

975
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 2: next time. I appreciate your candor you guys, and thank

976
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 2: you for doing this.

977
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: You to thank us all.

978
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 2: Right later, guys. Cool. I'm in a better mood. Now,

979
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: see what happens. I come in hot, I come in

980
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 2: a little aggravated. I have amazing conversations with these two

981
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 2: amazing women who are so smart and so articulate and

982
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 2: so in touch. That was rat Podcasting is really an

983
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: interesting thing. Talking to people is interesting. I guess this

984
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 2: is why I love doing it. You know, would I

985
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: do it for free? No, I would not, But I

986
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: do love talking to you I I you know, people

987
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 2: come on to promote shit, and of course this is

988
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: the new medium sort of promote things on and half

989
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 2: the time you're kind of like, yeah, yeah, I check

990
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 2: it out. You know this I cannot wait to see.

991
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 2: This is crazy. This is a story like I've never

992
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 2: heard before, so everyone should check it out. Anyway, I'm

993
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 2: gonna go now because I am due for my mid

994
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 2: morning shake on the last day of my liver cleanse,

995
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 2: and then tomorrow, well I want to eat cheeseburgers and

996
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 2: pizza and drink beer and all that, but I can't.

997
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 2: I gotta, I gotta, I gotta maintain this beautiful fucking figure.

998
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 2: I'm out. Mm hm