1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: When EPA Administrator Lee Zelden launched what he called the 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: greatest day of deregulation in American history six months ago, 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: there seemed to be no mention of protecting the environment 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: or endangered species, but rather of advancing American energy, revitalizing 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: the auto industry, and getting rid of climate protections put 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: in place by the Biden administration. 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 2: EPA will be reconsidering many suffocating rules that restrict nearly 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 2: every sector of our economy and cost Americans trillions of dollars. 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 2: Our actions include the Biden Administration's deeply flowed Clean Power Plan, 11 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 2: two point zero mercury and Air Toxic Standards quato BC, 12 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 2: particulate Matter two point five light Medium, and head, the 13 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: Car and Truck rules. 14 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: And in keeping with those goals, the agency has sought 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: to roll back dozens of environmental regulations. The latest, the 16 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: EPA plans to end the greenhouse Gas Reporting Program, which 17 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: for the last sixteen years has tracked pollution from some 18 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: eight thousand sites and requires large, mostly industrial polluters to 19 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: report their planet warming greenhouse gas emissions to the government. 20 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: My guest is environmental attorney Jennifer Novak Jennifer This greenhouse 21 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: Gas Reporting program was created by legislation signed by President 22 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: George W. Bush in two thousand and seven. Explain what 23 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: it does. 24 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 3: The Greenhouse Gas Reporting Program has been the primary way 25 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:54,279 Speaker 3: for the US government to track certain emissions for about 26 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 3: eight thousand of the country's largest facilities since twenty ten. 27 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 3: This is how we've tried emissions of carbon dioxide, methane 28 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 3: and other gases that come from sources like oil refineries 29 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 3: and steel mills and cement plants and coal burning power plants. 30 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 3: And it's how we have been identifying where a lot 31 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 3: of these emissions have been coming from, but also tracking 32 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 3: whether or not we are able to try to reduce 33 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: them by addressing those sources. And we've been relying on 34 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 3: this for quite a long time up until now. I 35 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: will also note that this is also a way for 36 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 3: places like California and other states that have cap and 37 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 3: trade programs to be able to both design as well 38 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 3: as track the emissions so that they can determine how 39 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 3: to run those programs and using this information from around 40 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 3: the country. 41 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: The EPA Administrator Lee Zelden said, the Greenhouse Gas Reporting 42 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: program is nothing more than bureaucratic red tape that does 43 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: nothing to improve air quality. Would you agree with that? 44 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: I do not agree with that. This program provides very 45 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 3: valuable data for us to understand what is going on 46 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 3: in these industries, how it may be contributing to local 47 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 3: communities as well as to a larger, more global problem. 48 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 3: And asking for certain industries known to be large sources 49 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 3: of these emissions is not just red tape, not just costs, 50 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 3: but is part of understanding the science of what the 51 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 3: problem is. And more importantly, science is the foundation for 52 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 3: how we determine what policies to have and how to 53 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 3: implement them, whether or not we even need certain policies. 54 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 3: So by depriving universities, nonprofits, other governments of this data, 55 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: we effectively are attacking the very foundation of the policy making, 56 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 3: which is the science. Truthfully, it's the opposite of transparency, 57 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 3: and it would mean a lot of these otherwise climate 58 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 3: based policy makers will be flying blind. 59 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: Is the only benefit, the only reason for this that 60 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: it's going to save businesses according to Zelden, up to 61 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: two point four billion in regulatory costs over the next decade. 62 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: Is that the benefit. 63 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 3: Here that's really the only thing I see that the 64 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 3: only justification one could bring up. And more importantly, we 65 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,799 Speaker 3: don't know where that number comes from, so we don't 66 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 3: know if that's the true cost. I will also note 67 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 3: that this doesn't mean that certain industries won't collect the data. 68 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 3: It just means they won't report it, so that the 69 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 3: public and the government doesn't know how that a problem 70 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 3: might be. So the cost savings from the collection and 71 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: reporting may not be as great as the Trump administration is. 72 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: Assuming the EPA is terminating dozens of environmental regulations, is 73 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: this just one part of that rollback. 74 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 3: It really does go to the issue of the regulations. 75 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 3: One of the reasons why we haven't seen the ability 76 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 3: to eliminate many regulations, especially in the environmental realm, is 77 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 3: because the science just doesn't justify it. If you put 78 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 3: the science out there to show that you do need 79 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 3: certain regulations or certain policies, then it's very hard for 80 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 3: the government to simply wipe them off the books. So 81 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 3: here by attacking the science, or at least depriving the 82 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 3: science from that discussion, then it makes it a lot 83 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 3: easier to try to take things off the books that 84 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 3: might otherwise be needed. I will note that just because 85 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 3: we're not necessarily recording and reporting this information does not 86 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 3: mean that these facilities are not emitting things like the 87 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 3: methane and the carbon dioxide. It just means we won't 88 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 3: know about it. 89 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: Is it sort of in line with the Trump administration 90 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: trying to erase notes of climate change on websites. 91 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 3: It goes part and parcel with that. If you can't 92 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 3: point to the science and the data to show what's 93 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 3: happening with the climate, then one can argue that it's 94 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 3: all made up. Right. If you have the data, then 95 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 3: it makes it harder for them to say that climate 96 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 3: change doesn't exist. 97 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: Before Biden left office, he said that they handled things 98 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: in such a way that the Trump administration wouldn't be 99 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: able to destroy their environmental achievements. But it seems like 100 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: they are doing that. 101 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 3: They certainly are trying. For example, under President Biden, we 102 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 3: had the Inflation Reduction Act of twenty twenty two, which 103 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 3: required certain oil and gas facilities to both collect their 104 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 3: emissions data and report it. The Trump administration is not 105 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 3: getting rid of that particular requirement that they are proposing 106 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 3: that there's a delay in implementation for ten years. In 107 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: other circumstances, the priorities of the EPA clearly have been 108 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,119 Speaker 3: publicly shifted, where I believe the administrator has been saying 109 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 3: that the mission of EPA is to support the US economy, 110 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 3: whereas I think most people would argue that the mission 111 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 3: of the Environmental Protection Agency is to protect both people 112 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 3: and the environment and to ensure that we are not 113 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 3: either destroying health and the environment, but certainly to try 114 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 3: to maintain it as best we can while balancing the 115 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 3: need for economic development and other things we need in 116 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 3: our lives. But in this situation, what we see is 117 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 3: an attack on the inside as well, what kind of 118 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 3: information is coming out, what kind of opinions people can have, 119 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 3: what kind of studies they are developing. And this is 120 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,679 Speaker 3: part of an overall much larger situation with the Trump 121 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 3: administration also attacking things like universities and nonprofits that we're 122 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 3: receiving ants to work on, especially climate issues. So it's 123 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 3: a multifaceted attack on the many places that would already 124 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 3: be working together, collaborating, sharing data in order to make 125 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 3: these larger policy changes that the Trump administration clearly does 126 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 3: not agree with. 127 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: You know, you talk about science, etc. But the Trump 128 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: administration has asked NASA to decommission and possibly destroyed two 129 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: satellites that measure greenhouse gases from space. 130 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 3: Yes, that has been in the news lightly, and it's 131 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 3: consistent with this proposal to eliminate the reporting of greenhouse gases. 132 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 3: One could look at it as a short term long 133 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 3: term issue. Long term, we're going to need this data 134 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: from a variety of sources, and shutting down the reporting 135 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 3: or eliminating satellites means you may save money in the 136 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 3: short term, but sooner or later we are going to 137 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 3: need that back, so we will be behind. It may 138 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 3: be harder for us to address these larger problems in 139 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 3: the long term if we haven't been working on them 140 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 3: consistently all along, and you can't just take a break 141 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 3: and then come back to it and pick up where 142 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 3: you left off. The Earth does not care whether or 143 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 3: not we believe in climate change. The Earth is doing 144 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 3: what it's doing, and we can either address it and 145 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 3: understand it now, or we will have far more expenses 146 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 3: and human effects later on down the road. 147 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: That was going to be my next question, you anticipated. 148 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: I was going to say, if a new administration comes 149 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: in that believes in climate change and fighting climate change. 150 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 3: Can we recoup We certainly can go back to the fight, 151 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 3: but you will have lost potentially years of data and 152 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 3: thousands of data points in the process. That being said, 153 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 3: I would anticipate that we will see lawsuits arising from 154 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 3: this proposal. There is also a public comment period, so 155 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 3: it's not a done deal yet this particular proposal, and 156 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: I don't know whether or not it will go into 157 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 3: effect right away. I would anticipate there will be requests 158 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: to the courts to delay the implementation on the very 159 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 3: grounds that we've been discussing, just the need for it, 160 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 3: the severity of the problem, the fact that we are 161 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 3: at a critical juncture with respect to understanding and addressing 162 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 3: climate change. 163 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: Can the states in any way step in and make 164 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: requirements of facilities in their state. 165 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 3: The states can step in and put in their requirements, 166 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 3: but part of the problem is by having a federal program, 167 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: you have consistent requirements across the board, as opposed to 168 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 3: going state by state with their requirements. You may see 169 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 3: variances in the quality of information that is reported, and 170 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 3: so it is more difficult to attack this on a 171 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 3: state by state or regional government by regional government basis. 172 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 3: As opposed to having a federal program in addition, and 173 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 3: states definitely like to be able to look to having 174 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 3: federal law to turn to and be consistent with and 175 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 3: to enforce, and the Clean Air Act has been a 176 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 3: very powerful tool for decades in terms of addressing these issues. 177 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 3: It's a lot harder for states to step in and 178 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 3: try to supplant that. 179 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: How does this affect the tax credits that companies get 180 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: that capture and bury their carbon emissions. 181 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 3: It's unclear how it will affect it. That certainly is 182 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 3: one of the unknowns here, which is that there are 183 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 3: other reasons why businesses collect this data and report it. 184 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 3: Sometimes it may be that they have carbon capture requirements, 185 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 3: They may have other sustainability requirements. There may be requirements 186 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 3: from the Department of Energy, for example. And so it's 187 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 3: not that these companies won't necessarily need this information. It 188 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 3: is that, again, that we won't be receiving it through 189 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 3: reporting necessarily, or it will be much more patchwork because 190 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 3: of their other issues. But the extent that companies are 191 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 3: trying to do the right thing, they're going to find 192 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 3: themselves in an interesting situation where some companies may have 193 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: ongoing requirements and some may be excused from it and 194 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 3: therefore be getting an economic advantage. 195 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Jennifer. That's environmental attorney Jennifer Novak coming 196 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: up next. Apache tribes try to stop development on a 197 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: sacred site. This is Bloomberg John him On, a diva. 198 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 4: God him. 199 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: For centuries, Western Apaches have worshiped at Oak Flat, a 200 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: nearly seven square mile site in Arizona, where tribal members 201 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: conduct religious ceremonies that can take place anywhere else. One 202 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: is the Sunrise Ceremony, a three day coming of age 203 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: ceremony for a patche girls that requires gathering certain plants 204 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: at Oak Flat and being painted with white clay from 205 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: the ground. For years, the tribal members have tried to 206 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: stop the federal government's transfer of the sacred tribal land 207 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: to a compromising company, which will end in the sacred 208 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: site being destroyed. Indigenous and environmental groups have filed multiple 209 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: lawsuits against the US Forest Service, but the legal paths 210 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: for tribal groups to protect Oak Flatt on religious grounds 211 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: have been narrowed by several decisions. They bring up the 212 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: question of whether tribal religious freedom claims are getting equal treatment. 213 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: A descent by Justice, Neil Gorsuch suggests they're not. My 214 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: guest is Heather white Man, runs him director of the 215 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 1: Tribal Justice Clinic at the University of Arizona. Heather, can 216 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 1: you give us the background of this legal fight. 217 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. In twenty fourteen, Congress passed the Southern Arizona Land 218 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 4: Exchange and Conservation Act as part of a much larger 219 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 4: Defense authorization bill that was really so voluminous that it 220 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 4: didn't have a whole lot of review and people weren't 221 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 4: paying super close attention to some of the smaller parts 222 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 4: of that much larger piece of legislation. And because of that, 223 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 4: this particular bill, the Southern Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act, 224 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 4: was able to make its way through congressional ratification and 225 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 4: was signed into law by President Obama. This particular initiative 226 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 4: had been a standalone bill numerous times before and had 227 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 4: never moved forward, never been able to get through Congress. 228 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 4: What the bill does is it mandates the transfer of 229 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 4: forgest service lands to a private company resolution copper for 230 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 4: the purpose of mining a substantial deposit of copper that 231 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 4: underlies the surface of that land. The reason why that's 232 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 4: difficult or why it's been opposed for so many years 233 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 4: is because the land on the surface is the site 234 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 4: of very significant, longstanding religious practices by the Western Apache people, 235 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 4: and so the mining of the copper will result in 236 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 4: the complete destruction of a substantial area of the surface land. 237 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 4: It will subside, it will create a very large crater, 238 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 4: it won't be usable any longer for the purposes that 239 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 4: the Apache people have maintained on that land for hundreds 240 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 4: and hundreds of years, if not longer. And so that, 241 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 4: according to the Apache people, is a substantial burden on 242 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 4: their religious practice. And common sense would I think lead 243 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 4: anybody to a similar result that if you destroy the 244 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 4: land that is absolutely necessary for the practice of a religion, 245 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 4: that's the burden. So that's the conflict in essence. 246 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: Are the legal challenges based on the First Amendment or 247 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. 248 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 4: The challenges are based on both of those. There are 249 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 4: also claims that have been raised related to the treaties 250 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 4: between the Western Apache people in the United States, and 251 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 4: also some claims that are based in NIPA, the National 252 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 4: Environmental Policy Act and consultation claims as well. That you know, 253 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 4: the consultation process between the federal government and the tribes 254 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 4: in question here, the tribal members and the tribal government 255 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 4: was not sufficient or it wasn't meaningful. 256 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: The procedural history here is so complicated. It's been up 257 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: to the Ninth Circuit more than once, right, So. 258 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 4: There are several different causes of action. Right back up 259 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 4: a little bit further. As part of the land exchange, 260 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 4: environmental impact statement is to be prepared and then within 261 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 4: sixty days of the finalization of the EIF or the 262 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 4: environmental impact statement, the land transfer is undated to take place. 263 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 4: That's what the Act provides for. And so the EIS 264 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 4: was underway, was being prepared, preliminarily announced to be about 265 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 4: to be released back in twenty twenty one, and that 266 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 4: was when Apache Stronghold filed its lawsuits in the District 267 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 4: of Arizona. Apache Stronghold is a coalition of tribal members. 268 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 4: It's not the tribal government, but it's you know, some 269 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 4: of the folks who were really involved in so devoted 270 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 4: to the practice of their religious beliefs at Oak Flat, 271 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 4: and you know, really sincere adherence to those cultural practices 272 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 4: and beliefs from within the Apache tribe. And so there 273 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 4: are a couple of different claims that were raised in 274 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 4: that particular lawsuit, the riffra claim, the First Amendment claim, 275 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 4: as well as treaty claims and some of the other 276 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 4: issues with you know, NIPA and the APA. The District 277 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 4: court initially dismissed most of those claims, but what did 278 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 4: go forward was the difference First Amendment issues, and those 279 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 4: went up to the Ninth Circuit. The Ninth Circuit ruled 280 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 4: against Apache Stronghold and moved on to review on Bank 281 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 4: before an on bunk panel also ruled against Apache Stronghold 282 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 4: in a very very complicated opinion or a series of opinions, 283 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 4: about two hundred and forty pages, seven different written opinions 284 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 4: with sort of two different majorities holding in two different ways. 285 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 4: And then from there there was a petition for a 286 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 4: review through the full unbunk Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, 287 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 4: which was denied, after which point Apache Stronghold petition for 288 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 4: circerari to the US Supreme Court. 289 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: Will you explain why the Ninth Circuit found that the 290 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: transfer couldn't be considered a substantial burden on religious exercise. 291 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 4: So the Ninth Circuit opinion, it's a tough one and 292 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 4: to parse out right, and so there are a couple 293 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 4: of different things that happen there. First, the court ruled 294 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 4: that there was no substantial burden right because there's not 295 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 4: coercion under some previous case laws. The Ninth Circuit has 296 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 4: a very narrow definition of substantial burden and of coercion. 297 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 4: So they have ruled that in the absence of withholding 298 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 4: of a benefit because of a religious practice or a 299 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 4: punative or punishment type of provision in a generally applicable 300 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 4: federal law that is triggered by what would otherwise be, 301 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 4: you know, a basic exercise of a religious practice, that 302 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 4: there's no coercion that results in no substantial burden. 303 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: Will you tell us more about how Native American religious 304 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: practices require relationships with specific locations and natural features and 305 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: how that played into the arguments. 306 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 4: And that's the second part of the Ninth Circuits on 307 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 4: bonk holding. So the first is applying this really narrow standard, 308 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 4: really restrictive standard for finding a substantial burden. And also 309 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 4: a different majority of the Ninth Circuit then held that 310 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 4: where there's a federal property management initiative, that cannot burden 311 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 4: religious freedom right, which is really wrong when you think 312 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 4: about it that, you know, under the Ninth Circuit ruling, 313 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 4: we're limited from ever bringing any kind of claim then 314 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 4: saying that a federal land management decision substantially burdens our 315 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 4: free exercise right because it's federal property. The federal government 316 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 4: has a right to do what it wants with its 317 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 4: own land. And that just doesn't seem right to me. 318 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 4: That we can't limit the federal government from violating the 319 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 4: First Amendment because the federal government is the landowner. So 320 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 4: the analysis under the Ninth Circuit approach is really that 321 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 4: we're looking at the relief thought to limit our ability 322 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 4: to ever find an injury to people's First Amendment rights. 323 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 4: So we can't find a burden because the relief that 324 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 4: we're seeking, which will limit what the federal government is 325 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 4: a landowner can do with its own property. You know, 326 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 4: it certainly presents a real challenge to any Native American 327 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 4: person whose religious beliefs depend on a relationship with a 328 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 4: specific land base, and many of ours do. Many of 329 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 4: us have religions and religious practices and beliefs that require 330 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 4: specific things to happen in specific places, often at specific times, 331 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 4: and that is our sincerely held religious belief and how 332 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 4: we practice it, so it renders Native American religious belief 333 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 4: virtually unprotectable in many in many instances under the way 334 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 4: that the case law has developed. And I just think 335 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 4: that can't be right. And I hope most Americans would 336 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 4: consider that situation and feel similarly that that simply cannot 337 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 4: be correct, and that cannot be consistent with our constitution 338 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 4: or what our founds intended. 339 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: And tell us about the religious significance of Oak Flat 340 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: with regard to the three day coming of age ceremony 341 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: for Apache girls that tribe members say can't take place 342 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: anywhere else. 343 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 4: From my understanding, and I'm not an Apache person, Oak 344 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 4: Flatt is the site where female members of the San 345 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 4: Carlos Apache tribe have their coming of age ceremonies. So 346 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 4: it's where a girl becomes a woman. And there's a 347 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 4: specific ceremony that takes place when a girl becomes a woman, 348 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 4: and it's a very intensive, multi date ceremony. It's incredibly 349 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 4: onerous physically, there's a lot of prayer, a whole community 350 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 4: comes together to help bring a girl into womanhood. It's 351 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 4: a necessity for a woman to go through that ceremony 352 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 4: to fully realize her identity as an attache woman. So 353 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 4: it's incredibly significant. It's one of the most important things 354 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 4: that happens in any woman's life in that culture. 355 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: As we've discussed, there are several cases here, which is 356 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 1: the case that went to the Supreme Court and. 357 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 4: The litigation that's been most developed and has gone the 358 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 4: furthest up that was brought by a coalition of tribal 359 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 4: members who organized as a nonprofit corporation as Apache Stronghold 360 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 4: and so you know, Pache Stronghold petition for Circherai to 361 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 4: the US Supreme Court. The US Supreme Court, upon completion 362 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 4: of the cert petition briefing, brought the case in for 363 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 4: conference I think something like sixteen times. So it went 364 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 4: up for review to consider whether it would be whether 365 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 4: it would be granted, many many times over the course 366 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 4: of last spring. Ultimately, on May twenty seventh, the Supreme 367 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 4: Court denied Sircherai. Unfortunately, however, soon after the denial of 368 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 4: cert Apache Strongholds, the attorneys filed a petition for basically 369 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 4: a reconsideration of the cert petition asking the Supreme Court 370 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 4: to grant Scerai remand the case back to the Ninth 371 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 4: Circuit and provide a clear direction to the Ninth Circuit 372 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 4: on how to review the legal arguments going forward in 373 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 4: a new Ninth Circuit review. Part of the reason for 374 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 4: that is because intervening President was decided after the denial 375 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 4: of Scherai. 376 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: Coming up next. The Supreme Court denied cert but Justice 377 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: Neil Gorsuch said it was a grave mistake for the 378 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: Court not to hear the case. I'm June Grosso and 379 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 1: you're listening to Bloomberg. Indigenous and environmental groups have filed 380 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: multiple lawsuits against the government seeking to preserve Oak Flat, 381 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: a six point seven square mile site for Western Apache's 382 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: religious ceremonies that plaintiffs say can't take place anywhere else. 383 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: Years long court challenges have attempted to stop the federal 384 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: government's transfer of the land to a copper mining company, 385 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: but the legal paths for tribal groups to protect Oak 386 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: Flat on religious grounds have been narrowed by several decisions, 387 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: especially in the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. 388 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: I've been talking to Heather white Man runs him director 389 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: of the Tribal Justice Clinic at the University of Arizona. 390 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: Let's talk about Justice Gorsuch's Descent, joined by Justice Clarence Thomas, 391 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: and he said it was a grave mistake for the 392 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: Court not to hear the case. Quote, just imagine if 393 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: the government sought to demolish a historic cathedral on so 394 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: questionable a chain of legal reasoning. I have no doubt 395 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: that we would find that case worth our time. Face 396 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: with the government's plan to destroy an ancient side of 397 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: tribal worship. We owe the apaches no less. And this 398 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: is a Supreme Court that has expanded religious rights. Is 399 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: there a difference with the way they treat tribal religion? 400 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 4: I see a difference. A lot of people see a difference, 401 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 4: you know. Such is The Descent is a really great read. 402 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 4: I'd encourage anybody interested in these issues to read it. 403 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 4: And I think it recognizes that, like I was saying earlier, 404 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 4: the way that these cases are evaluated and the outcomes 405 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 4: that we keep seeing should be a concern to every American. 406 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 4: Every American citizen should worry about the viability of their 407 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 4: free exercise right. If the Court can condone the complete 408 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 4: annihilation of a place of worship that is absolutely central 409 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 4: to the perpetuation of that religion, they can limit anybody's 410 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 4: religious exercise right. So this is a threat to every 411 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 4: American religious liberty, and it is something that I think 412 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 4: we should all be concerned about and we should all 413 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 4: be advocating to our lawmakers, to our legal scholars that 414 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 4: you know, we need to work through these issues and 415 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 4: we need to find solutions that will bring us different results. 416 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: Ultimately, the Supreme Court had a decision in June where 417 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: it favored parents who want want their children to be 418 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 1: exempt from lessons involving books that mention sexuality and gender. 419 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: So how is that case playing in here? 420 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 4: So a couple of things. The Apache strongholds petition for 421 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 4: reconsideration relies heavily on the intervening decision in Mahmood because 422 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 4: there are similar impacts of the government policy that's challenged there. 423 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 4: In Mahmood, we had the Supreme Court recognize very, very 424 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 4: vehemently that when we limit parents' abilities to bring up 425 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 4: their children, to raise their children in ways that are 426 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 4: consistent with their religious beliefs, we are violating their First 427 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 4: Amendment rights. That is a substantial burden, and it has 428 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 4: to go through the relevant analysis for when and how 429 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 4: such burdens are limited and when they're allowed to go forward. 430 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 4: That type of test has not been applied yet to 431 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 4: the challenged law to the Land Exchange Act in a 432 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 4: Patchie stronghold. What we've been through so far is the 433 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 4: preliminary injunction analysis, So we haven't had the full the 434 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 4: full review of an application of the relevant legal standards 435 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 4: for what's permissible when. 436 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: And how So, what's happening right now? What stage are 437 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: you at. 438 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 4: The Apache stronghold motions to reconsider and grant curtari and 439 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 4: remand the case back to night Circuit is not decided yet. 440 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 4: But we also have a new case that has been 441 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 4: filed by a group of Apache women, mothers and daughters 442 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 4: that really found it claims in similar issues and similar 443 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 4: analysis to what the Supreme Court decided in Mahmoud. The 444 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 4: Land Exchange app will burden through free exercise rights of 445 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 4: especially APACHE women right because it's limiting APACHE women from 446 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 4: having the ability to become women in ways that are 447 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 4: consistent with their religious beliefs. It's limiting APACHE mothers from 448 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 4: bringing their daughters into womanhood as required by their religious beliefs. 449 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 4: And so there's you know, a real consistency with the 450 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 4: impact in the burden on a religious freedom interest there 451 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 4: as what we saw the Supreme Court limit in Mahmoud. 452 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 4: So that's a new case that was brought. First, it 453 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 4: was filed in the District of BC, it was transferred 454 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 4: into the District of Arizona. The District of Arizona court 455 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 4: ruled on preliminary injunction motions from both the plaintiffs in 456 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 4: this new case, Lopez versus the United States. The judge 457 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 4: subsequently ruled against those three motions that were pending for 458 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 4: injunctive relief. Plaintiffs immediately appealed to the Ninth Circuit Court 459 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 4: of Appeals. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals issued an 460 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 4: emergency injunction basically preventing the land transfer. The land transfer 461 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 4: was about to take place, put the cases on an 462 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 4: expedited briefing schedule, and so we're now in the middle 463 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 4: of that briefing to the Ninth Circuit or a argument 464 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 4: will probably take place early this fall and we'll see 465 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 4: how the Ninth Circuit resolves this issue going forward. So, yeah, 466 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 4: there's still a lot going on. There's still a lot 467 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 4: of activity surrounding various parties claims in relation to the 468 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 4: final disposition of Oak Flat. There are still cases pending 469 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 4: in the Ninth Circuit, and the Supreme Court itself has 470 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 4: not rolled on the motions filed by Apache Stronghold. After 471 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 4: the certain denial. 472 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: The tribal groups have not fared well at the Ninth Circuit. 473 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 4: Sort of the bigger picture things that are going on 474 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 4: here in the American West, Right, we're in the Ninth Circuit. 475 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 4: As Justice Gorsich pointed out in his dissent, the Ninth 476 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 4: Circuit encompasses more Native American people, more Indigenous religious practitioners 477 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 4: than any other federal district. Right, and we have more 478 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 4: federal land in the Ninth Circuit than in any other 479 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 4: federal circuit. This means that we have a lot of 480 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 4: conflicts right in federal land management decisions, which you know, 481 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 4: are all landscapes that were indigenous not very long ago, 482 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 4: and where practitioners maintained relationships with places and events that 483 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 4: take place on the land. So these conflicts are frequent. 484 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 4: And the other thing that I think people aren't fully 485 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 4: cognizant of is the fact that you know, the party 486 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 4: with the most to gain here if the status quo 487 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 4: is perpetuated is Resolution Copper. Resolution Copper is not a 488 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 4: domestic company. This isn't a project that is going to 489 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 4: immediately enrich the United States of America or its citizens. 490 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 4: It's a foreign held mining company. It's what a British 491 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 4: and Australian corporation. The largest shareholder of Resolution Copper is Chinalco, 492 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 4: which is owned by the Chinese government. So when we 493 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 4: talk about these mining projects being so essential to national 494 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 4: security and the interests of energy security in the United States, 495 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 4: if you dig a little bit deeper, you see that 496 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 4: the things that we're compromising fundamental rights of Americans or 497 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 4: aren't really that compelling to the federal government's interests or 498 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 4: the interests of mainstream society in America. When it comes 499 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 4: down to it, we'll. 500 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: See what happens at the Supreme Court the second time around. 501 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: Thanks Heather. That's Heather white Man runs him director of 502 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: the Tribal Justice Clinic at the University of Arizona. And 503 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. 504 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on 505 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 506 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, 507 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: and remember to tune into the Bloomberg Law Show every 508 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso 509 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Bloomberg