1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. We are returning to you with a 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 1: fascinating interview from several years back when we ask none 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: other than the legendary Toby Ball to teach us a 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: little bit about Betty and Barney Hill, one of. 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 2: The classic UFO abduction stories, borderline like one of the 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 2: archetypal abduction stories. 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 3: Oh yes, and we're talking to him because he made 8 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 3: an entire podcast about it called Strange Arrivals, and it 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 3: was the first season. Since then, there are three seasons 10 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 3: of that show, but it's an entire, huge deep dive 11 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 3: into this one instance of a couple seeing some weirds 12 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 3: that or believing that they experience something very strange on 13 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 3: the road. 14 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: So join us and Toby as we travel back to 15 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,319 Speaker 1: September of nineteen sixty one, right after a word from 16 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: our sponsors. 17 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 4: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 18 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 4: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 20 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 4: production of. 21 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 3: iHeartRadio, Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 22 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 3: my name is Nola. 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our 24 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:26,199 Speaker 1: super producer Paul Mischig Control decands most importantly, you are you, 25 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't 26 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,559 Speaker 1: want you to know. Interestingly enough, many of our fellow 27 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: listeners have written into us on a regular basis over 28 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,559 Speaker 1: the years asking us to cover more things about UFOs, 29 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: whether that's just unexplained aerial phenomena, whether that's you know, 30 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: allegations of visitations by extraterrestrial or even extra dimensional entities. 31 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: And we've taken a swing at a lot of it. 32 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: But today we're bringing out the big guns. In fact, 33 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: you could say today's episode concerns the most important UFO 34 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: story in American history. It's a strange, twisting tale. It 35 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: begins all the way back in nineteen sixty one, but 36 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: it's a story that has ramifications which continue to influence 37 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: the world of UFO research here in the modern day. 38 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 3: That's right, and today we are not going to tackle 39 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: this alone. We have brought along and are joined by 40 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 3: a journalist and author. His name is Toby Ball. He 41 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 3: is the host of the new show Strange Arrivals that 42 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 3: is executive produced by Aaron Manky. By the way, it's 43 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 3: a new show on our network that delves deep into 44 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 3: the Betty and Barney Hill Story. 45 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on the show, Toby, Thanks for having 46 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: me on Now, Toby, before we begin today's show, we 47 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: would be remiss if we didn't mention the fact that 48 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: you are, in addition to being an author and a journalist, 49 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: you are also a potter in the world of crime. 50 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 5: Is that correct? That's right. For about five and a 51 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 5: half years, I've been one of the four co hosts 52 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 5: of Crime Writers on and every week we review a 53 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 5: couple of true crime properties, occasionally fictional crime as well, 54 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 5: if that happens to be hot at the moment. So podcasts, 55 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 5: you know, HBO series, documentaries, things like that, and. 56 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,959 Speaker 3: I would just say that they're very honest in their reviews. 57 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 3: They've they've done several of that I know Nolan and 58 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 3: I have made and Ben you might have one coming 59 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 3: down the pike soon too. They're really honest and it 60 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 3: is a It's a great show if you want to 61 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 3: get an objective take. 62 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 5: Dare we say brutally honest? Yeah? 63 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 3: Sometimes sometimes I think Nolan and I have both felt 64 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: that before for Wrath, But I mean, you know it's 65 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 3: worth a listen. 66 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 5: No, did you did you work on the Oregon murders. 67 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 3: I did. 68 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: I did. 69 00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, you were the one that you were the 70 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 2: the dugad. But everybody else hated it, apparently. I actually 71 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: I couldn't even bring myself to listen to it. But 72 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: you and I spoke a little bit, and I know 73 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: that you stood up for it, and I really appreciate them. 74 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 5: Yeah I did. I actually did, really like that one. 75 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 3: Awesome, But that's not what we're talking about today. 76 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 5: No, it's not. 77 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: And I want to be the first to say I 78 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: really like Strange Arrivals, which is what we are here 79 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 2: to talk about. It's such a lushly sound designed and 80 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: soundscaped storytelling kind of bordering on true crime. It feels 81 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: like a mystery kind of. There's this wonderful atmosphere to it. 82 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: Your narration is super solid, the writing's great. All the 83 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 2: archival stuff really enriches the experience. And you know, kudos 84 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: for the first episode. I can't wait to hear more. 85 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: New episodes are out every Tuesday. As we record this, 86 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: we should note Toby Strange Rivals. It addresses, as you 87 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: had mentioned, Matt, it addresses the story of Betty and 88 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: Barney Hill. Now, a lot of people in our audience 89 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: today know sort of the the broad strokes of some 90 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: aspects of the tale, or they've at least heard the 91 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: name right the Hill case mentioned, But we were hoping 92 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: we could begin today with a little bit closer look 93 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: at the overall lay of the land. On this show, 94 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: we always liked to start with the facts. So for 95 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: the here are the facts portion of our show, could 96 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: you give us maybe just a broad outline of what 97 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: the story is. It starts on September nineteenth, nineteen sixty one. 98 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 5: Right, yes, so what the basic the sort of bones 99 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 5: of the story are. Betty and Barney Hill were a 100 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 5: mixed race couple from Portsmouth, New Hampshire, professionals in their community, 101 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 5: leaders in the civil rights movement in our area of 102 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 5: New Hampshire. This I live in southeast New Hampshire as well. 103 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 5: So they went on a vacation. They went to Niagara Falls, 104 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 5: they went up to Toronto, and they were going to 105 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 5: go and spend a final night the night of September nineteenth, 106 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 5: nineteen sixty one in Montreal, and for some reason, and 107 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 5: there's been a number of reasons given as to why 108 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 5: this was, they didn't spend the night there. Instead, well 109 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 5: into the evening They decided to drive all the way 110 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 5: back to Portsmouth, New Hampshire, which was probably about a 111 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 5: seven hour drive at that time, so they started heading south. 112 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 5: They crossed the border, they stopped at a diner to 113 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 5: grab something to eat. As they were leaving the diner, 114 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 5: they noticed that it was about a little bit after 115 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 5: ten o'clock at night, and they continued to head south 116 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 5: and they started to notice they saw a light in 117 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 5: the sky that seemed a little brighter than others, and 118 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 5: Betty in particular sort of fixated on that. They stopped 119 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 5: a couple times it seemed as though it was following them, 120 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 5: and then they stopped one time just north of a 121 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 5: place in the mountains called Franconia Notch. They got out, 122 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 5: they looked through binoculars, couldn't quite figure out what it was, 123 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 5: but it definitely seemed odd. It wasn't another star. They 124 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 5: thought maybe it was a plane, but weren't quite sure 125 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 5: what to think it. Got back in the car. They 126 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 5: started to head down through Franconia Notch, which is this 127 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 5: area that cuts between these two sort of sets of mountains. 128 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 5: It's very very steep on either side. It feels pretty claustrophobic. 129 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 5: They pulled up to a place called the Old Man 130 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 5: in the Mountain, which is no longer there. It actually 131 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 5: crashed to the ground in two thousand and three, I think, 132 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 5: but it used to be this sort of natural rock 133 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 5: formation that looked like an old Man. And they saw 134 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 5: an actual craft at this point with lights and it 135 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 5: was hovering and it wasn't making any noise, and so 136 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 5: they looked at it, and then it left again and 137 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 5: they could They got back into their car and they, 138 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 5: you know, the hearts are pounding. They keep driving south 139 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 5: through Fanconia Notch, stopping every once in a while to 140 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 5: see if they can see it. And they get a 141 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 5: little bit further south near a terist area called Indian Head, 142 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 5: which is another sort of natural rock formation that looks 143 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 5: a tiny bit I guess like an Indian Head, and 144 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 5: then you know, they feel this thing whoosh over their car. 145 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 5: They stop their car in the middle of the highway. 146 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 5: I mean this is at night in very world New Hampshire, 147 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 5: so there's almost no traffic, there's no ambient light, and 148 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 5: they see a craft hovering above a field. Barney gets out. 149 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 5: He approaches the craft with binoculars and sees beings looking 150 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 5: back at him. He panics, runs back to the car. 151 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 5: They they take off down the highway. There's a sense 152 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 5: that the UFO is falling them. It's like sort of 153 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 5: hovering above them. As they move, they feel this, hear 154 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 5: this noise, and feel like a little bit of a 155 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 5: tinge in their bodies. And then about thirty miles further 156 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 5: down the road, they kind of come to you know, 157 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 5: they haven't said anything, they're not really clear of time passing, 158 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 5: but suddenly they're down by this town, Ashland, New Hampshire, 159 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 5: and they wonder what happened. And so they've had this 160 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 5: strange experience and they drive home basically straight from there. 161 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 5: They make a quick stop trying to get some coffee, 162 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 5: but they end up arriving home two or three hours 163 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 5: later than they're expecting to arrive home. They get there, 164 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 5: they unpacked their car. They notice a few interesting things. 165 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 5: Betty's dress is torn, Barney's shoes are scuffed, their watches 166 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 5: have stopped at identical times, and they they call Betty's sisters. 167 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 5: Neighbor was a physicist and they for whatever reason, Betty 168 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 5: thinks that maybe he'll have some insight into this. He 169 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 5: suggests they go and they put a compass over their 170 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 5: car to see if there's any strange magnetism. They apparently 171 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 5: do this over the trunk where these bright spots and 172 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 5: the compass starts spinning wildly. So there's all these little 173 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 5: pieces of what they consider to be evidence that something 174 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 5: strange had happened during that time. And then about ten 175 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 5: days later, Betty has this series of very very intense 176 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 5: nightmares about being brought aboard an alien spacecraft and having 177 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 5: sort of a medical examination done to her on the 178 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 5: spacecraft by aliens, and is very disturbed by this. She 179 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 5: tells this story to a variety of people, including her supervisor. 180 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 5: She apparently, I guess she used to have tea with 181 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 5: her supervisor and her sister and she tells them about 182 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 5: these nightmare she's having, and her supervisor for whatever reason, says, 183 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 5: you know, maybe you know, maybe they're not just nightmares. 184 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 5: Maybe you're actually remembering something that actually happened. 185 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 3: Really really quickly. So this is so, I mean, this 186 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: is you're you're going through like all of these things 187 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: that have happened, and so far, through all of this, 188 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 3: except with the exception of a few extra people there, 189 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 3: these are the personal experiences of two people and the 190 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 3: stories that we're getting from two points of view, right, 191 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 3: or were the only two people that we are to 192 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 3: believe right now currently are Betty and Barney about what's 193 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 3: happened besides the neighbor and you know the supervisor, right right. 194 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 5: So there wasn't any other sort of corroborating witness to 195 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 5: see anything that night they did, you know, they pretty 196 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 5: immediately started telling people about what they had seen, you know, 197 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 5: so it's not this isn't something where two years later 198 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 5: there's like, oh, by the way, you know, two years ago, 199 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 5: we saw this thing. They get in touch with a 200 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 5: UFO investigation group called Nightcap, which was pretty big at 201 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 5: the time, and they send an astronomer to come and 202 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 5: interview them and he writes up a report. But at 203 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 5: the time, it really is the extent of it is 204 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 5: seeing this light in the sky and then having this 205 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 5: very very intense experience in this field by the Indian 206 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 5: Head resort, and then heading home, and that's kind of 207 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 5: what they remember sort of consciously throughout the whole thing, 208 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 5: and they, you know, they draw a picture of what 209 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 5: they saw. Betty writes down a narrative of her. 210 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 3: Dreams Nightcap, by the way, for anyone who's interested. Was 211 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,599 Speaker 3: a thing called the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, 212 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 3: and it was active roughly nineteen fifties to the nineteen eighties. 213 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: So this was a real this was a real primetime 214 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: heyday for the organization. I guess we would sum up 215 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: then for our or look at these unusual instances. So 216 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: so Betty and Barney see this anomalous thing. They also 217 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: when they kind of come to out of a fugue state, 218 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: they've lost time. Would it be fair to say that 219 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: from their account they have lost time? 220 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 5: Yeah, they absolutely think that. I think sort of the 221 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 5: the unusual nature of the whole experience makes the lost 222 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 5: time part of it seemed not as like that seems 223 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 5: to kind of fall back as compared to seeing, you know, 224 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 5: a spacecraft in the middle of a field. But as 225 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 5: time kind of goes on, and especially after she has 226 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 5: those dreams, that is something they're like, huh, you know, 227 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 5: that is kind of weird that it took an extra 228 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 5: two hours to get home. What went on there. 229 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: I'd like to maybe bracket this just for a second, 230 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: because what what you've just outlined succinctly and very well 231 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: is the is the order of events in which they 232 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: occur that we that we know for sure per Betty 233 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: and Barney, for many people this would probably remain the 234 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: most inexplicable, strangest experience of their adult lives. But this 235 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: is just sort of the beginning of the tale. And 236 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: one thing I like, without spoiling Strange Arrivals, one thing 237 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: I was surprised to find and fascinated by, was there's 238 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: a segment early on in the podcast where you talk 239 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: a bit about your own personal experience. I think it's 240 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: at the very beginning of the very first episode. Could 241 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: you could you tell us a little bit, just so 242 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: we have something to compare with Betty and Barney, Could 243 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about your experience and 244 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: what you see as differences or commonalities, and maybe whether 245 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: that in inspired you to pursue this show. 246 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, so Strange Arrivals, Actually it starts with me talking 247 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 5: about an experience and experiences is maybe putting it too strongly, 248 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 5: but I was having So. My family's got a place 249 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 5: up on an island in a lake in New Hampshire 250 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 5: called Lake Winnipesauke, which is you know, it's about an 251 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 5: hour and a half two hours from where Betty and 252 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 5: Barney had their experience, and it was right around dusk 253 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 5: and we were having dinner and drinks with a couple 254 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 5: who are old friends of ours, my wife and I 255 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 5: and my wife saw these red lights sort of hovering above, 256 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 5: you know, sort of the hills that you can see 257 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 5: from the porch of our house. You know, it was 258 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 5: just strange. You know, I've been going up there for 259 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 5: fifty years and I hadn't seen anything quite like that before. 260 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 5: And it was enough that we walked down from the 261 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 5: porch and we walked onto our dock to get a 262 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 5: better look. And you know, the number of lights, I 263 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 5: believe it started with four and probably got up to 264 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 5: about seven red lights, and they were kind of moving around, 265 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 5: and it wasn't clear, you know, there was some distance away, 266 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 5: there was no noise, and it wasn't clear if there 267 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 5: were individual things that were moving or whether it was 268 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 5: a larger thing that was kind of you know, moving 269 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 5: in its aspect to us, so that we were getting 270 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 5: a different view of what it was. I mean, that 271 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 5: was sort of the illusion that we had and I 272 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 5: just I just I checked. My wife was checking, and 273 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 5: she wrote some notes about this afterwards, and we watched 274 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 5: it for twenty minutes, you know, So it was a 275 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 5: good long time that we were watching this, you know, 276 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 5: and it never got to be more than just lights. 277 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: You know. 278 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 5: We never saw like an outline of anything, or none 279 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 5: of the lights seemed to have you know, more to them. 280 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 5: So what's what's kind of interesting is, you know, while 281 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 5: we're watching this, my buddy and I are like, how 282 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 5: I wonder what that is? And my wife and and 283 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 5: my buddy's wife were like, oh, yeah, that's definitely that's it. 284 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 5: Those are that's an alien spacecraft, like, no doubt about it. 285 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 5: And then you know, if you talk to us now, 286 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 5: like my buddy and I are, the way we remember 287 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 5: it ending is the lights just kind of blinked out 288 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 5: one by one, like they just kind of disappeared, and uh, 289 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 5: my wife and and uh and my buddy's wife are 290 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 5: both say that they took off at high speeds. You know, 291 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 5: they just kind of took off and disappeared. But there 292 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 5: was movement involved. It wasn't just blinking out. So this 293 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 5: has been a source of of some uh some dispute 294 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 5: at various times after a few libations, and so that 295 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 5: was kind of it was an interesting question to me. 296 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 5: It's like, why did half of us believe right off 297 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 5: the bat, it's like, wow, that must be the extraterrestrial 298 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 5: And then half of us were like, it could be 299 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 5: just about anything, have no clue what it is, but 300 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 5: it's definitely not that. And that was kind of what 301 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 5: got me thinking about these kinds of questions in general, 302 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 5: like why are some people skeptical about these things? Why 303 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 5: are the people more prone to believe these things when 304 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 5: you're looking at exactly the same thing, right, the evidence 305 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 5: that we had was identical, and then based on that 306 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 5: first instinct, our memories of what happened are very different. 307 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 5: It's really fascinating. 308 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 2: The whole idea of like the fallibility of memory, I 309 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: think is a really interesting spin on this, and especially 310 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: when it was sort of split between the believers and 311 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: the non believers as to how you actually visually, you know, 312 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 2: interpreted this information like and then took that and created like, 313 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 2: you know, this is this is this is this phenomenon. 314 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 2: I absolutely believe it. It's not such a leap to 315 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,239 Speaker 2: think that. It's just really interesting to me that, so 316 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: what where did you guys land on that? Like, when 317 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: you like, what do these debates sound like? Over a 318 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 2: few drinks like that, How do you make your case? 319 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: Was it just okay, I got to make this podcast. 320 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you know it's you know, nobody budgets. Basically, 321 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 5: you know, people dig in their heels and we have 322 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 5: another beer and we dig in our heels even further. 323 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 5: And uh, there really hasn't been any kind of movement 324 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 5: towards the center from anybody. I mean, you just the memories. 325 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 5: The memory and that's kind of what made it compelling 326 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 5: to me. And when I was talking to my friend 327 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 5: about this podcast, he had the same same feeling. It's like, 328 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 5: it is it is super strange that we all, you know, 329 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 5: at this point it's what like six years ago, it's 330 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 5: not that long, but our memories of it are just 331 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 5: are so different, and there's just no give to anybody. 332 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 5: Everybody's very clear about what they remember. So I was 333 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 5: trying to figure out a way of like, how do 334 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 5: you approach like examining this And that was when I 335 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 5: kind of latched onto the Betty and Parney Hill case, 336 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 5: partly because I live in the same town as the 337 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 5: University of New Hampshire and they've got the Betty and 338 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 5: Parney Hill papers and a lot of other kinds of documents, 339 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 5: audio documents, video documents, photographs. So it seemed like it 340 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 5: seemed like kind of a natural as a way of 341 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 5: taking a look at it, because it does bring up 342 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 5: a lot of the same issues about you know, perception 343 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 5: and memory and how how do you approach how do 344 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 5: you approach making sense of things that you experience that 345 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 5: don't have an obvious explanation. 346 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 3: And we'll be back with our discussion with Toby Ball 347 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 3: after a word from our sponsor. Welcome back to the show. 348 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 3: Now let's keep you on with this conversation. You know, 349 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 3: we're talking about belief here. Something Ben has stated on 350 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 3: this podcast before I'm going to paraphrase, but each of 351 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 3: our understandings of the world, it's only the information that 352 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 3: we've ever taken in, right. We can't know things necessarily 353 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 3: that we've never accepted it likes as information into our brains. 354 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 3: So each of us has that different perspective of all 355 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 3: the information we know and then applying it to what 356 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 3: we're observing. Right, That's kind of what you're exploring here. 357 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 3: But the story really takes a turn at the point 358 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 3: where we left off a little while ago there when 359 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 3: we're getting into the concept of digging into someone's brain, 360 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 3: putting someone back into a fuguel like state, and digging 361 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 3: through their brain to pull out new information that hasn't 362 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,479 Speaker 3: been stated as a memory. 363 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's that's why I wanted to ask you specifically, Toby, 364 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: do you think that, say, hypnotic regression might help solve 365 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: this long standing and disagreement about what you saw. 366 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 5: I would it would be interesting to find out. I 367 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 5: My sense is, having talked to a lot of people 368 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 5: about hypnotic regression at this point, is that we would 369 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 5: probably probably all tell the exact same stories. It's your 370 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 5: your recall through hypnotic regression is it's it's made with 371 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 5: the same sort of fallible things that your conscious memory 372 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 5: is made of, you know, when you're when you're thinking 373 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 5: about things. So it's it's taking the same basic elements 374 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 5: but just in sort of a different state of consciousness 375 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 5: to recreate them. 376 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: And I didn't want to apologize if I'm derailing the 377 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: conversation here, guys, but I do mean it as, let's say, 378 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: sixty percent joking with you and forty percent, well what if, 379 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: because that's that's exactly what you're setting up, Matt, Right, 380 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: Like the the idea that the hills. Eventually, I think 381 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: we have a little bit of a time gap there, 382 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,959 Speaker 1: but eventually, uh power. Inspired in part by Betty's dream journal, 383 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: inspired of course, by these unusual events, they they also 384 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: turned to hypnosis. Right, is it hypnotic regression specifically or 385 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: just I'm not a hypnotist. I don't know the difference. 386 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 5: Right. So, Barney had already had some anxiety issues, and 387 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 5: I believe he was already seeing a therapists. But regardless 388 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 5: of whether he was before or not, he does end 389 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 5: up seeing a therapist. But they're not really talking about 390 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 5: alien stuff. They're talking about other issues in his life. 391 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 5: But he does bring up this this thing that happened, 392 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 5: and his therapist recommends that you go down and see 393 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 5: a psychiatrist who uses hypnosis, whose name is doctor Benjamin Simon, 394 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 5: who's very well known for working with returning soldiers who 395 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 5: had PTSD. It wasn't known as PTSD at the time, 396 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 5: but that's what it was. So they go down there 397 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 5: and they do regression hypnosis. So what he does is 398 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 5: he says, you know, cast yourself back to this date, 399 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 5: tell me what happened. And so they start to go 400 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 5: through this story and he starts them off in Montreal 401 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 5: and going on the different steps of the journey. But 402 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 5: what they find is that after this buzzing noise that 403 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 5: I talked about, after they have this sort of intense 404 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 5: experience with the UFO in the field, they both tell 405 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 5: sort of versions from their own viewpoints of this same 406 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 5: story of their driving down the highway's Route three. They 407 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 5: take a turn off for some reason they don't really 408 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 5: know why. They take another turn onto a dirt road 409 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 5: where they're stopped by six figures in the road and 410 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 5: they see this glowing light behind them, and you know, 411 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 5: they're they're not quite clear what's going on. But Barney 412 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 5: turns off the car and then can't turn it back 413 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 5: on again, and the figures break into two groups come 414 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 5: and take them from their car and bring them on 415 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 5: to a bring them through the woods and onto a spacecraft. 416 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they get on a spacecraft and don't the 417 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 3: don't the people talk to them while they're being pulled out, like. 418 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's interesting in that. So one of the 419 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 5: things that comes out of all this is Betty has 420 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 5: this very detailed story about this whole thing. Barney has 421 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 5: a much less detailed story and they both sort of 422 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 5: agree that that he was sort of put under the 423 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 5: alien control and then he had his eyes and was 424 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 5: very scared. She, on the other hand, you know, ends 425 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 5: up talking to them, and there was one who speaks 426 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 5: English with an English accent. She says sort of a 427 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 5: foreign English accent, and he's sort of trying to reassure 428 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 5: her that it's going to be fine. We're just going 429 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 5: to take you aboard the spaceship. You don't have to worry, 430 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 5: and then we'll bring you back and no harm will 431 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 5: come of you. And you know, she's wary, as I 432 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 5: think anybody would be about being brought onto an alien spacecraft. 433 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 5: But they do. They bring them aboard, and they separate 434 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 5: them into different rooms and they undergo, you know, medical 435 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 5: medical examinations at the hands of an alien who they 436 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 5: call the physician, and he doesn't speak English either. There's 437 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 5: there's the leader who speaks English, the physician who does 438 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 5: the medical exams, and then there's a whole bunch of 439 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 5: you know, six or seven sort of out of crew 440 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 5: members or whatever who speak amongst each other, but not 441 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 5: in English or any language that you know a human 442 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 5: would understand. 443 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 2: Now you mentioned, you know, the divide that is obviously 444 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 2: even in listeners to the show, and even between the 445 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 2: three of us between you know, belief and skepticism, and 446 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: you know, some people can kind of there are grades 447 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 2: of that obviously, and you can change over over the 448 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 2: course of your life. Have you found that this research 449 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 2: and looking into the story and going deeper has changed 450 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: you a little bit in terms of your belief or 451 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 2: or made you more skeptical. 452 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 5: That's a really interesting question. I feel as though I've 453 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 5: become more skeptical of my own memories of things that 454 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 5: seem that seem real. And I can kind of give 455 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 5: you a quick example. I my sister has a story 456 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 5: up at that same island place where when she was young, 457 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,719 Speaker 5: you know, three or four, opening the door from our 458 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 5: kitchen to the outside and seeing a raccoon hanging from 459 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 5: a screen and freaking out and then having nobody believe her. 460 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 5: And I have this absolutely crystal clear memory of being 461 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 5: in the kitchen when that happened, and her opening the 462 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 5: door and looking and seeing her back and then seeing 463 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 5: the raccoon hanging from the screen. But it seems that 464 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 5: that almost certainly did not happen. It seems that she 465 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 5: told me that story, and I, you know, I was 466 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 5: able to picture it in my head so clearly that 467 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 5: now it seems like this absolutely concrete memory that oh yeah, 468 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 5: I was there when my sister opened the door and 469 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 5: saw the raccoon, but based on her memory of it, like, 470 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 5: we both can't be right, and I'm pretty sure she's 471 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 5: probably the one who is. And I just imagine that 472 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 5: happening so much. So that's really been, you know, more 473 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 5: than I would have expected myself too. I've really taken 474 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 5: a look at things that have happened in the past 475 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 5: that I feel as though I remember pretty well but 476 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 5: don't necessarily feel consistent with with other pieces of reality, 477 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 5: and then sort of questioning if my memory of that 478 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 5: is accurate. So that's really been you know, it's been 479 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 5: kind of an eye opener, quite honestly. And then when 480 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 5: you apply it to the other part of my other 481 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 5: podcasting stuff, which is about you know, true crime, and 482 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 5: you think about you know, people going in front of 483 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 5: going on trial and having these witnesses with these people's 484 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 5: lives in their hands, and just knowing that their memories 485 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 5: are probably not as accurate as they think they are. 486 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 5: Is it's sobering. 487 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: We talk about on this show all the time, and 488 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 2: you know, we've all worked on true crime shows as well. 489 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 2: Abo how eyewitness accounts are typically just awful. They're the 490 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 2: worst kinds, but they can absolutely convict somebody. Or if 491 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: you point somebody out in a lineup, and then we've seen, 492 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 2: you know, experiments where people don't remember faces, or they 493 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 2: kind of twist it to fit their own narrative and 494 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,479 Speaker 2: maybe they really want someone to go down for something, 495 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: and so they convince themselves that that's the guy that 496 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: did this or whatever. I mean, it's really fascinating the 497 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 2: way we're able to almost delude ourselves, Like your raccoon 498 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 2: story is a form of that. It's less conscious, but 499 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 2: you basically invented a narrative by believing something so much 500 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: that you created this image in your mind that seemed 501 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: very very real. But now you've accepted Okay, I think 502 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 2: that was just It sort of speaks to the power 503 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 2: of belief, really, and how we're able to kind of 504 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 2: fool ourselves and trick ourselves into thinking that things are 505 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 2: happening or real when they're absolutely not. 506 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, one hundred percent. 507 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Toby Ball after a 508 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor and we're back. So I want 509 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: to follow up with a question here. To me, one 510 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: thing that's fascinating about the raccoon story is, Toby, have 511 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: you ever heard of something called the Mandela effect? 512 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 5: I don't think so. 513 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: So maybe fifty years from now you and I will 514 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: look back and think that we both did remember it, 515 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:17,239 Speaker 1: because it's this fascinating concept that's very close to what 516 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about today, wherein people can become convinced in 517 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: a group that something has happened and it didn't occur. 518 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: It's named the Mandela effect because the person who named 519 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: it they were in a group of people who were 520 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: certain that they knew Nelson Mandela had or had not 521 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: died and exactly when that happened, and they were so 522 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: surprised that this was not the case at least in 523 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: their current timeline, that instead of just saying, well, maybe 524 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: we were wrong about it, they've doubled down and said 525 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: maybe they're having a memory from a different timeline. 526 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 2: The stupidest version of that is that there's a whole 527 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: contingent of people that believe Shaquille O'Neill play a genie 528 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 2: named Shazam in a movie, but it was actually Kazam 529 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: I think was the name of the movie. If I'm 530 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 2: mistaken and it wasn't Shaquilla no Sinbad, but it was 531 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 2: actually Shaquille O'Neil. Anyway, correct me on that one, Ben, 532 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 2: But that's my favorite example of this. 533 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 5: There's another one with. 534 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 2: The baron Stein Bears versus the baron Stain Bears. So 535 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 2: many people believe it's spelled ste i n and in 536 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 2: their minds that's like just that's all it's ever been. 537 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 2: It's always been the barn Steinbars, but it's actually the 538 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 2: barn Stain Bears. It's interesting. 539 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 5: I was actually tripped up on that one a few 540 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 5: years ago. Somebody pointed that out to me. 541 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 3: We did a whole episode on it, and I don't 542 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 3: think we've ever had more feedback episode besides maybe the 543 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 3: what the sleep paralysis episode? Maybe, Ben, I think maybe 544 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 3: we got. 545 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: Right right, Matt, sleep paralysis. It's interesting because both the 546 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: Mandela effect, the what I've always called like the treachery 547 00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: of memory, and sleep paralysis. The situation should wherein people 548 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: experience vivid things, often nightmares, or the sensation that they 549 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: are not in control of their body while they attempt 550 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: to slumber those both could relate in a way, however, 551 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: indirectly to the case of Barney and Betty Hill. More 552 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: skeptical people in the audience, for instance, might say that 553 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: perhaps Betty was experiencing some form of sleep paralysis in 554 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: her dreams. But what do we like, Toby, The question 555 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: about the dreams is fascinating to me because they're a 556 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: whole other world. What did Betty just have like a 557 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: short run of bad dreams or were they recurring dreams? 558 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: Did they change? What do we know about our dreams? 559 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 5: So it's interesting she actually wrote them down in a 560 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 5: document called Dreams or Recall, So she was already kind 561 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 5: of thinking about, you know, is this dreams or is 562 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 5: this actual memories of something that happened that that's been repressed. 563 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 5: And so what she said is she doesn't dream them 564 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 5: in sort of chronicle order, of chronological order of the 565 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 5: way they happened. She dreams them sort of out of order, 566 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 5: and then she puts them into order in this document. 567 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,919 Speaker 5: And so they kind of stitch together, but they don't 568 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 5: follow one after the other. They kind of bounce around 569 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 5: a little bit. And I don't know, like I haven't 570 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 5: come up with anything that goes into any more detail 571 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 5: on how that all worked. You basically just get you know, 572 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 5: this is my compiling these five dreams in a way 573 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 5: that sort of makes narrative sense going forward. And so 574 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 5: it's this, you know, it's this I imagine, quite distressing series 575 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 5: of dreams again about being a board of spacecraft and 576 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 5: being under the control of alien visitors and having them, 577 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 5: you know, examine you and and really you know, you're 578 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 5: sort of powerless in the face of their technology, and 579 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 5: they also seem to have some kind of physical control 580 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 5: over you even if they're not holding on. 581 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 2: It's interesting how that scenario always is kind of the 582 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 2: trope of alien abductions. I kind of wonder what the 583 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 2: first one that was ever reported was. Do you happen 584 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 2: to know anything about the history of this scenario of 585 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 2: being you know, probed or examined, like it didn't just 586 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 2: come out of nowhere, you know, like whether even if 587 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 2: it's made up, it's somebody made it up first. I'm 588 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 2: fascinated by how this is a repeating story we see 589 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,439 Speaker 2: all the time with these abduction remembrances. 590 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 3: I guess. So. 591 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 5: I think that's one of the interesting thing about this 592 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,879 Speaker 5: case is that there really wasn't anything quite like it beforehand, 593 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 5: and this sort of sets the narrative going forward, you know, 594 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 5: And so most abduction cases that follow are playing off 595 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 5: this to a certain extent, and and you know, it's 596 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 5: like anything else where, it escalates an esque and escalatees 597 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 5: and then you end up in the eighties and nineties 598 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,399 Speaker 5: with you know, people being demateialized through walls, and you know, 599 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 5: you know, tens or hundreds of thousands of people being abducted. 600 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 5: But before Betty and Barney Hill, there's really only one 601 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 5: case that was not well known at the time, and 602 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 5: it took place in Brazil, and it was this guy 603 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 5: named Antonia Villis Bois who was abducted and brought on 604 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 5: a UFO and and sort of a little twist on 605 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 5: this has a sort of sexual sexual encounter with a 606 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 5: alien like this small female alien with bright red hair, 607 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 5: who you know, screams like an animal and rubs her 608 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 5: belly and points up to the stars and he takes 609 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 5: it to me and she's going to take their baby 610 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 5: back to her home planet, I guess, to raise him 611 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 5: or whatever. This hadn't really made it to the US 612 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 5: unless you are like a real UFO Officionado, so so 613 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 5: not Betty and Barney. And I think there is a 614 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 5: question that that hasn't been answered about why this sort 615 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 5: of medical exam. In particular, she talks about having a 616 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 5: needle plunged into her navel with the idea that it 617 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 5: has something to do with reproduction or pregnancy. Different people 618 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 5: have different I think hypotheses, and I think you can 619 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 5: kind of, you know, guess what they are about why 620 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 5: they would why she would be sort of fixated on 621 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 5: that in particular. But I don't know. I don't know. 622 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 5: I mean, nobody's I haven't read anything where people are like, 623 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 5: this is why these two people in particular would be 624 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 5: this concerned about, you know, sexual matters when you're on 625 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 5: board a spaceship. So this is just a really good 626 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 5: question and I'm not sure what the answer is. 627 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 3: There's something deeper. I want to get into that and 628 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 3: try and tie it back to their work in the 629 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 3: civil rights movement and like try and compare or somehow 630 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,399 Speaker 3: find a way to compare that. But before we do that, 631 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 3: we're talking about the how influential this story was from 632 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 3: the you know, the abduction experience. What actually happens when 633 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 3: you're abducted, but also the extra supposed extraterrestrials that did 634 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 3: the abducting. The descriptions of them change quite a bit 635 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 3: right over the course of the all the stories from 636 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 3: Betty and Barney. 637 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, So when it first happened, immediately following their 638 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 5: sighting on September nineteenth, they describe seeing, you know, basically 639 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,879 Speaker 5: humans looking back at them, Humans who are wearing uniforms, 640 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 5: who are wearing caps some of them. And so that's 641 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,760 Speaker 5: about what you get up until the point where they 642 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 5: undergo hypnosis, and then there's a light change, and part 643 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 5: of it is under hypnosis, you know. When Barney's describing 644 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 5: being in the in the field and looking at these 645 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 5: beings looking back at him, he describes two of these beings. 646 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 5: One he describes as looking like an irishman, and he 647 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 5: worked in Boston, and as an African American, it was 648 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 5: very clear that he saw Irish as being sort of 649 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 5: agents of racial animosity. So this is like a stressful 650 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,280 Speaker 5: image to him. The other one he describes as a Nazi. 651 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,359 Speaker 5: So again it's this sort of a figure that would 652 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 5: cause him anxiety. And he actually talks in radio interviews 653 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 5: about how he didn't feel that they were sinister, but 654 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 5: that the situation itself was sinister. But the way he 655 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 5: describes them, certainly to me, sort of indicates that at 656 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 5: some level he thought it was they were sinister. But 657 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 5: this changes when they go aboard the UFO and he 658 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 5: he talks about, you know, basically, you know what you 659 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 5: would think of as a gray or sort of like 660 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 5: a proto gray of like you know, the slit mouth 661 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 5: and the very small nose or almost non existent nose, 662 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 5: and you know, the big eyes. And he even goes 663 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 5: he has this very weird thing about there being a 664 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 5: film over the mouth that makes this kind of weird, 665 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 5: you know, slurpy kind of noise, and it's very you know, 666 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 5: it would be an alarming thing to open your eyes 667 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 5: up to. Betty, on the other hand, in her dreams, 668 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 5: talks about them as little guys with big noses like 669 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 5: Jimmy Duranty, and people kind of say, well, she heard 670 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,720 Speaker 5: what Barney description was, and kind of changes her story 671 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 5: a little bit to fit his. Not to mention the 672 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,399 Speaker 5: fact that you know, people's reaction is is that it's like, oh, 673 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 5: like Jimmy Duranty, and you chuckle like aliens like Jimmy 674 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,320 Speaker 5: duranty has happened. So they come out of this do 675 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 5: doing all this hypnosis with this basic idea of sort 676 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 5: of what the aliens look like, and it's sort of 677 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 5: on the way to being what we think of now 678 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 5: as a typical alien. And they spend some time trying 679 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 5: to refine this and they they end up working with 680 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 5: a New Hampshire artist named David Baker in the late sixties, 681 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 5: and he's sketching drawings of what Betty and Barney think 682 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,319 Speaker 5: they look like, and they're getting back to him. They'll 683 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 5: like see sketches, and they'll get back and they'll they'll say, 684 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 5: you know, make these changes. This isn't this is the 685 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 5: stuff that was wrong. And then he'll get back with 686 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 5: a new a new sketch, and they actually, you know, 687 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 5: at the UNH Library, University of New Hampshire Library, they've 688 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,439 Speaker 5: got the copies of those those sketches and they're they're 689 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,760 Speaker 5: really they're they're a little bit spooky like in all honesty, 690 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 5: and they're just kind of hazy and vague enough that 691 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,399 Speaker 5: they're very evocative of this idea that you're kind of 692 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 5: like trying to bring up a memory in a way 693 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 5: that I thought was really kind of cool and interesting. 694 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 5: And the other piece that they tried to put together 695 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 5: to sort of document their memories of this is this 696 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:23,839 Speaker 5: strange little bust called Junior, and it was something that 697 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 5: Betty commissioned a woman named Marjorie Fish, who plays a 698 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 5: big part in the story in another way, to create 699 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 5: and it's it's like a little bust of a gray, 700 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 5: you know, like a primitive version of a gray. And 701 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 5: it's about the size of a small human head. I've 702 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 5: held it. It's got a little hole in the back 703 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 5: from where she knocked it off a pedestal during a 704 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 5: talk she was giving in Cincinnati, and it's it's just 705 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 5: a very very odd thing, but it is. I mean, 706 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 5: that's that's what she says is the closest reper presentation 707 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,879 Speaker 5: to what she saw during that experience. 708 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 2: And that classic kind of gray alien image that is 709 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 2: just so ubiquitous and pop culture. Now this is kind 710 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 2: of the origin of that, Like this is really where 711 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 2: that kind of came into existence. 712 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 5: The story. Yeah, so this is the first time I 713 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 5: think it's been put forward as being a you know, 714 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 5: an actual alien, like I saw an alien and that's 715 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 5: what it looked like. There's been people have tried to 716 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 5: say where where did they get this vision, and they 717 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:37,280 Speaker 5: point to a there's an episode of The Outer Limits 718 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 5: that ran just a couple of weeks before they started Hypnosis, 719 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 5: and it was called the Bolaro Shield, and it's got 720 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 5: this alien in it that kind of looks like a 721 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 5: gray Yeah. I mean, I think you the only way 722 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,800 Speaker 5: you can really make it work is if you try 723 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 5: and describe it and then somebody hears it and then 724 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,839 Speaker 5: they draw something that sort of sad looks a little 725 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 5: bit like it. You might come up with the gray, 726 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,359 Speaker 5: but it's not so close. And then I've actually heard 727 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 5: Brian Dunning from Skeptoid had heard from somebody that there 728 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,279 Speaker 5: was another a Twilight Zone episode that was about a 729 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 5: year and a half before that that was called hocus 730 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 5: Pocus and Frisbee that has another similar kind of I mean, 731 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 5: this is all this is stuff from like, you know, 732 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 5: the early sixties. So the alien is basically a guy 733 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,240 Speaker 5: in a mask, and I think in hocus Pocus, in Frisbee, 734 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 5: he's actually wearing a suit while he's being an alien, 735 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,439 Speaker 5: and it's all it's kind of ridiculous, but it does 736 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 5: have the basic idea of big eyes not much of 737 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 5: a nose, just a little slip for a mouth. So 738 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 5: for what it's. 739 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,879 Speaker 3: Worth, another fascinating detail that ends up coming out of 740 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:03,319 Speaker 3: the hypnosis session and the memories then that are kind 741 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 3: of brought back from the time that Betty. I think 742 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,840 Speaker 3: it is particularly Betty when the time that she supposedly 743 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:16,240 Speaker 3: spent on this spacecraft was that she saw some kind 744 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 3: of dotted lights or lines of light, which she interpreted 745 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,720 Speaker 3: to be I believe a starmap. Is that correct? 746 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, So while she's after she gets her exam, she 747 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 5: apparently gets quite comfortable and starts having a conversation with 748 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 5: this alien. She calls the leader and she asks them, 749 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 5: you know where did where did you come from? And 750 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 5: his response is to sort of pull out this what 751 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 5: they call a starmap and apparently is in some ways 752 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 5: a three D type thing. Regardless, he pulls it out 753 00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:01,239 Speaker 5: and she says, well, which one is yours? And he says, well, 754 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 5: can you point out where your son is on this map? 755 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 5: And she says no, and he says, well, then it 756 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 5: doesn't make any difference, right, like you can't orient yourself, 757 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 5: So he puts it away. So she tells this story 758 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 5: under hypnosis and doctor Simon, the hypnotist, is just intrigued 759 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 5: by it and says, you know, sometime when you're not hypnotized, 760 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,239 Speaker 5: if you want to, why don't you draw that map 761 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,799 Speaker 5: that you saw. So she draws the map later, and 762 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 5: it's you know, I think it's twenty one sort of 763 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 5: circles of various sizes, and some of them are connected 764 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 5: by lines, and some of them are connected by more 765 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,959 Speaker 5: than one line. And so this is a star map. 766 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,279 Speaker 5: This is supposed to be a exact replica of what 767 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 5: she saw on board. And what makes it the really 768 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 5: interesting part of the story is that this woman, Marjorie Fish, 769 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,000 Speaker 5: the very same Marjorie Fish who did the bust of 770 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,960 Speaker 5: Junior the alien. She looks at it and thinks, maybe 771 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 5: I can use that to determine where the aliens came from, 772 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 5: Like what's the vantage point in the galaxy from which 773 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 5: this map was made. So this isn't the pre you know, 774 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,680 Speaker 5: home computer age. So what she does is she gets 775 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:31,359 Speaker 5: the latest information on stars and their distance from the 776 00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 5: Earth and each other, and she makes these really really 777 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 5: elaborate models of the near galaxy in her living room. 778 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 5: And what she does is she puts, you know, black 779 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,759 Speaker 5: paper or fabric around the walls, and then from the 780 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 5: ceiling she hangs beads from thread and it's all done 781 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,919 Speaker 5: with these like super exact measurements to get them as 782 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 5: close as possible to exactly where they would be in 783 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 5: space based on what we knew then, you know, and 784 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 5: this is you know, this takes place over a course 785 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 5: of years, and I think she does twenty or twenty 786 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,000 Speaker 5: one different models, and then she takes a camera and 787 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,080 Speaker 5: she's taking pictures from different angles, right, so she's trying 788 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,200 Speaker 5: to get it to match, get a picture that will 789 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,880 Speaker 5: match the star map. And so she gets to a 790 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 5: point it's very you know, as you can imagine, it's 791 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:33,960 Speaker 5: very detailed, exacting, frustrating work. She can't find a match. 792 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 5: And then this new astronomy catalog sort of the astronomy 793 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 5: Bible at the time, comes out and it's identified a 794 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,799 Speaker 5: few new stars, and there's three stars that when she 795 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 5: adds them to one of her models, it fits the 796 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 5: star map. And then so you know, what's her proponents 797 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,680 Speaker 5: of the Hills story say, is you know that map 798 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:07,760 Speaker 5: wouldn't have existed as humans couldn't have made that map 799 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 5: with what they knew at the time. That she drew 800 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 5: it like you had to have had advanced understanding of 801 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 5: the location of different stars in order to create that map. 802 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 5: So yeah, she identified their sort of stars of origin 803 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 5: as Zeta Reticuli, which is a binary star system, which 804 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 5: she thought could sustain a planet that could have life. 805 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:38,759 Speaker 5: So it's a really, you know, a completely sort of 806 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:45,279 Speaker 5: obsessive quest to find a match in something that would 807 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 5: be really daunting today with computers, but back then when 808 00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,680 Speaker 5: you're just like literally hanging beads from a ceiling, it's unbelievable. 809 00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,880 Speaker 5: And the pictures there's no pictures on the Internet, but 810 00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,120 Speaker 5: there are, or at least that I could find. But 811 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 5: they do have a lot of those pictures at the 812 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,759 Speaker 5: University of New Hampshire Special Collections and I've checked them 813 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,360 Speaker 5: out and it's it's really it's quite something. 814 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,560 Speaker 1: It's interesting because it reminds me of the old, uh, 815 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,960 Speaker 1: the older story of the Dogon tribe that I think 816 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,839 Speaker 1: this was actually after the Betting Barney hillcase. You guys 817 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,840 Speaker 1: can correct me if I'm wrong, but the Dogon tribe 818 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:30,319 Speaker 1: had a similar experience being able to name stars or 819 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:35,560 Speaker 1: star system a serious system that was, according to the tale, 820 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,280 Speaker 1: something that human technology was not at the time able 821 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:44,759 Speaker 1: to view, and it stranged me because, you know, like 822 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,600 Speaker 1: someone else pointed out earlier, we're seeing tropes there. And 823 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,200 Speaker 1: now that we know this story for the Dogon may 824 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,880 Speaker 1: have happened or come to attention after the Betty and 825 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,640 Speaker 1: Barney Hill story, we have to we have to ask 826 00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:03,880 Speaker 1: ourselves just how profoundly the experience of these folks has 827 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:10,120 Speaker 1: has informed UFO folklore UFO. I don't even want to 828 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,160 Speaker 1: say tropes, but you know, has informed the commonalities that 829 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,920 Speaker 1: people say they experience. When you're in the course of 830 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,279 Speaker 1: your research here and you're you're finding all these exclusive 831 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,160 Speaker 1: materials that are, as you said, not available on the 832 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,719 Speaker 1: internet or not widely available. Have you run into other 833 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:34,920 Speaker 1: people researching this story, or have you had anybody anybody 834 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,640 Speaker 1: contact you with some kind of exclusive or some kind 835 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,239 Speaker 1: of what they feel is an insight. I guess what 836 00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,960 Speaker 1: I'm asking, Toby is have you had other people who 837 00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:48,920 Speaker 1: feel they've experienced an abduction reach out to you? 838 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,920 Speaker 5: Not yet, although I feel so that may come at 839 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,600 Speaker 5: some point in the future as strange arrivals kind of 840 00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:04,439 Speaker 5: continues on. Yeah, it's the Betty and Barney Hill archives. 841 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:09,120 Speaker 5: Are as you you imagine the most sort of viewed 842 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,560 Speaker 5: things that they have At the University of New Hampshire. 843 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:16,399 Speaker 5: There's a big UFO conference in Exeter, New Hampshire, which 844 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:20,480 Speaker 5: is about twenty minutes away. So during that sort of 845 00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,040 Speaker 5: week slash weekend, a lot of people come in and 846 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,400 Speaker 5: if only to see like the junior bust or Betty's 847 00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,879 Speaker 5: torn dress, which is also there's sort of a pilgrimage. 848 00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,040 Speaker 5: But yeah, I haven't. I haven't anybody reach out to 849 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,920 Speaker 5: me yet, but I'll keep you in the loop if 850 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:38,120 Speaker 5: I do. 851 00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,480 Speaker 1: Please do because toward the end of this episode, we're 852 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,359 Speaker 1: going to tell people where to find you. 853 00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:50,759 Speaker 3: Aha, which is actually, guys, what we're about to do now. 854 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:52,800 Speaker 5: Really quickly. 855 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,760 Speaker 3: If you do want to check out the special collections 856 00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,719 Speaker 3: at the University of New Hampshire, if you cannot physically 857 00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,719 Speaker 3: go there, you can go to library dot u nh 858 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,120 Speaker 3: dot edu. Just do a little search within there for 859 00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,960 Speaker 3: Betty and Barney Hill and you'll see the special collections 860 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:14,040 Speaker 3: that they have. They've really it's really just kind of 861 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,359 Speaker 3: a list of the materials that are available there and 862 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,959 Speaker 3: like which box they're in and where you can find 863 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,799 Speaker 3: them if you're physically there. But it's a great list 864 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,440 Speaker 3: of things as well as just some overall information about 865 00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,120 Speaker 3: the case. 866 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 5: I actually, I believe they're going to be digitizing make 867 00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,760 Speaker 5: you some of it available digitally over the next few months. 868 00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:38,680 Speaker 5: So depending on how quickly people are listening to this, 869 00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 5: there may be more stuff there. 870 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,400 Speaker 3: At the very bottom of the page of that special 871 00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,440 Speaker 3: Collection of Betty and Barney Hill, there is a picture 872 00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,560 Speaker 3: of the alien bust if you want to go and 873 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:50,880 Speaker 3: see what that looks like. So if you want to 874 00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 3: do that, you know, if you want to learn more 875 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,120 Speaker 3: about this story, then just listen to Strange Arrivals. That 876 00:53:56,160 --> 00:54:00,640 Speaker 3: would be my recommendation. We kind of talked about the experience, 877 00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,920 Speaker 3: the sonic experience you're gonna get in that show. We 878 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,360 Speaker 3: really think it's worth your time. It feels like you're there. 879 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:12,000 Speaker 3: There's like some recreations that have been done, correct, Toby. 880 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,800 Speaker 3: It makes you feel like you're with Betty and Barney 881 00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,320 Speaker 3: and you're aren't there actual Isn't there actual hypnosis tape 882 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:20,960 Speaker 3: in the show too? 883 00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,359 Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a a couple of instances we do have 884 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:29,600 Speaker 5: the actual hypnosis tape that we play. Uh, there's a 885 00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:32,560 Speaker 5: part where Betty's talking about being taken from the car 886 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:38,960 Speaker 5: and being brought aboard the ship, Barney experiencing the UFO 887 00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,440 Speaker 5: in the in the in the field. 888 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:42,720 Speaker 1: Wow. 889 00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:45,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, So if you want to do that, what should 890 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,440 Speaker 3: what should people do to find you? And Strange arrivals? 891 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,560 Speaker 5: Toby, So, strange Arrivals, uh, you know, should be available 892 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,600 Speaker 5: on whatever podcast app you use. Uh, if you want to, 893 00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,960 Speaker 5: uh get in touch with me. I'm on Twitter at 894 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:05,440 Speaker 5: Toby Ball NH and my website is tobyball dot com. Awesome. 895 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,719 Speaker 3: Well, hey, thank you so much for joining us in 896 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:12,920 Speaker 3: talking about this really really interesting case. I'm glad that 897 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,040 Speaker 3: you're making the show you're making because I want to 898 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,000 Speaker 3: know more and I'm sure a lot of us do. 899 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:17,880 Speaker 1: Agreed. 900 00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,520 Speaker 2: Agreed, And also thanks for the solid outer limits and 901 00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,640 Speaker 2: Twilight Zone Rex in this episode. If you get I 902 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:26,960 Speaker 2: don't even can see my background, but I changed it 903 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,520 Speaker 2: to the hocus Pocus and Frisbee alien kind of sche 904 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,759 Speaker 2: mask looking dude, But he really does have the two 905 00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,640 Speaker 2: kind of almond shaped eyes and the two little nostrils. Actually, 906 00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:39,600 Speaker 2: now I'm noticing, which I think is a pretty key 907 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,800 Speaker 2: part of the gray face facial structure. So I'm actually 908 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,480 Speaker 2: kind of on board with this having been an influence 909 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,520 Speaker 2: for those descriptions now that I'm looking at it. 910 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:53,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, you check it out online. You can if you 911 00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,279 Speaker 5: put into Google that they've got pictures of it. It's 912 00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:58,360 Speaker 5: you know, it's getting there. 913 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,560 Speaker 1: It's getting there, and we are getting to the end 914 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,920 Speaker 1: of today's episode. Please check out Strange Arrivals. Don't take 915 00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,560 Speaker 1: our word for it, experience it yourself wherever podcasts are available. 916 00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:16,000 Speaker 1: We'd also like to hear your stories about allegations of 917 00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:20,160 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial activity at UFO sidings. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, 918 00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:21,279 Speaker 1: and Instagram. 919 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,840 Speaker 3: We are conspiracy stuff on most of those conspiracy stuff 920 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:28,239 Speaker 3: show on Instagram. If you don't want to use the 921 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,200 Speaker 3: social media, because come on, we all know what happens 922 00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,919 Speaker 3: with the social media. We joke about it all the time, 923 00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:39,319 Speaker 3: and our NSA intern definitely, you know, appreciates these jokes, 924 00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,759 Speaker 3: I'm sure every week. But if you want to give 925 00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:47,480 Speaker 3: us a call, we are one eight three three STDWYTK. 926 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,120 Speaker 3: You can leave a message, talk to us about this episode, 927 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,640 Speaker 3: about an idea you've got for an upcoming episode, anything 928 00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:56,120 Speaker 3: you want to do, just give us a call and 929 00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:57,000 Speaker 3: leave a message. 930 00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:58,440 Speaker 2: And if you don't want to do any of that, 931 00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,000 Speaker 2: you can only send us a good old fashion email. 932 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:23,400 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 933 00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:25,600 Speaker 3: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 934 00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:30,240 Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. 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