WEBVTT - Ghislaine Maxwell Fights to Stop Document Release 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:05.680 You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:10.760 Unsealed documents show that Jeffrey Epstein was offering advice to 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:15.360 Glaine Maxwell as late as despite her lawyer's statement that 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:19.000 the British socialite had no contact with the disgrace financier 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.799 in a decade. Maxwell is in a federal jail in 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.079 Brooklyn after her arrest this month on charges of engaging 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.240 with Epstein in a sex trafficking scheme. She's trying to 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.000 stop the disclosure of documents that include her sworn testimony 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:35.000 in a civil case. Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.560 Patricia Hurtado, who has been covering the Maxwell case that 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:41.720 give us the background on these documents. So this is 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.600 a prolonged involved story goes back to there was a 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.640 young woman named Virginia Robert Gufrey, and she says that 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.720 when she was sixteen years old, she encounters Gawayne Maxwell 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:57.080 at mar Lago. Her dad worked there as a maintenance man. 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.920 He gets her a job at the spa. She's handing 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.120 out towels and a lovely woman British woman comes up 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.520 to her and sees her reading a book about massage 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.080 and offers her a job working for this wealthy man 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.080 who wants to looking for a private massuit. She said 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:15.560 she was sixteen years old at the time, so she 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.080 goes to the mansion through if it turns out she's 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:24.960 introduced Jeffrey Epstein and he immediately and Maxwell, she alleges 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:29.280 forced her to perform sex acts with the two of 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:33.680 them present, and she became a sex slave. She and 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:41.560 alleges that was in thousands. So then she ends up 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.399 trying to join a lawsuit with victims of Epstein after 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:49.120 Epstein gets his secret plea deal, and she makes some 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:54.200 comments about Maxwell publicly and Maxwell comes back and issues 0:01:54.200 --> 0:02:00.000 a press release in January twenty sixteen. She makes statements 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:03.440 and says that this woman is a liar. It provoked 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:09.079 or prompts a defamation lawsuit. Gufrey sues Maxwell for defamation 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:16.120 and Maxwell gave testimony under oath questioned about this steps trafficking. 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:22.120 Guffrey was very very aggressive. Her lawyers included David Boys 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.840 and this guy Bradley Edwards and as Pottinger in Florida, 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:30.520 and they really went to question Maxwell at people that 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.840 worked at the Epstein home in Palm beach, all kinds 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.959 of allegations. So Gufrase alleged was forced to have sex, 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.480 that she was trafficed to these famous men, including alleged 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:49.120 princes passively, Prince Andrew, she's named him, and Maxwell denies it. 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.720 So what happens is this stuff was all settled right 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.320 on the eve of trial. The tifteen lawsuits got settled 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:00.280 right before trial, and then the documents were understealed. So 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:04.919 how did all those sealed documents get unsealed before Jeffrey 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:11.640 Epstein's suicide. But after Epstein gets prosecuted, the Miami Herald 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:17.600 goes to ask why is this sealed? And the Court 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:21.640 of Appeals, Second Circuit Court of Appeals directed that the 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:25.840 judge who had originally had the lawsuits didn't properly seal. 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.120 He shouldn't have properly sealed everything. It was improper to 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:33.680 keep all the documents from the public. And so that's 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.480 how we get to this point. The circuit orders last August, 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.120 they order all these documents and seals, and all the 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.720 documents start hitting the dockets and the next day Jeffrey 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:47.840 Epstein is found dead in his jail cell of an 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:52.920 apparent suicide. So the document release was sent back to 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.600 a new federal judge to provide over what's properly unsealed 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:58.760 and what should not be properly unsealed. And you can 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:02.600 imagine there's all these implications for other people whose names 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:06.520 may can't come up, other victims who allegedly were there 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:10.240 when the trafficking occurred or were also traffic who may 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.320 not want to have their names come out. So there's 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:14.840 like a Jane Doe one, and a Jane Doe two, 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:20.920 and multiple Jane does and also John does. So Judge Prescott, 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.480 July twenty three, she held a hearing after you know, 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:27.000 Maxwell has now been charged and says, okay, let's go 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.599 and have a hearing about what you get unsealed. So 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:33.279 she ordered the first transfer documents to be unsealed last 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.760 Thursday night. So that's how we get to this testimony. 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:42.279 Maxwell was questioned under oath. The government used the testimony 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.200 as a basis they say she lied and committed to 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.240 counts of perjury for lying when she claimed she was 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:53.599 never present when Epstein may have been sexually abusing underage girls, 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:56.440 nor had she seen anything like it. She was not 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:00.680 aware of that activity illegal activity, nor was President ever 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:05.480 witnessing it, so that testimony remains under steal because she 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.479 went for an emergency motion and asked the Quarter of 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:14.320 Appeals to again stop the release Thursday night. So that 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.520 was on the eleventh hour stop to that part. But 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.240 the rest of the documents hit the docket starting at 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:24.240 like nine thirty on Thursday night. How many documents are 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:29.800 already out. Two thousand pages were released in August, so 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:34.520 that's when we started first seeing these allegations of possible 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:40.960 you know, Prince Andrew's involvement. Some captains of industry were implicated, 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:45.600 some senators, some former presidents uh their allegations. There were 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.040 flight records of people who were on the plane to 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.920 Epstein's Island in the Virgin Islands. What's her legal argument 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.560 to stop the release of the deposition, Well, I mean 0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:00.360 it's it's unusual because the you know Federal with Heel's 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.440 Court already ruled we should be un sealed, and then 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.240 the judge was ruling she reviewed it and said she 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:10.240 didn't see a problem. But now Maxwell is making this 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:15.920 argument that oh, I'm under indictment, so my testimony, if 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.039 any potential juror reads it, I won't be able to 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.280 get a fair trial and they'll judge me based on 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:26.040 this testimony coming out now. So she'd won a temporary stay, 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.360 but the circuit told her they want to hear oral 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.400 arguments on September twenty two, and in the meantime, Judge 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:37.000 Loretta Prescot, who is presiding over the un sealing the 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.400 federal judge in Manhattan, she's ordered them to get ready 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:44.719 for another state of documents. So on Thursday night we 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:49.240 saw about fifty documents with hundreds of pages of evidence 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:56.119 coming out um, including Gufrey's deposition which she gave under oath. 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:59.120 There were excerpts that had been under steal, and we 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:01.440 saw a little bit more about that. It seems a 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:06.600 little disingenuous for Maxwell to want to conceal this deposition 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.440 in the papers. When she tried to get the judge 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:16.720 to agree to let her lawyers openly identify her accusers 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:22.400 in public. Yeah, that was It's It's interesting because her 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:27.000 civil lawyers in the defamation lawsuits are also part of 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.160 the team that's defending her in this criminal case. And 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:35.160 I guess it makes sense that these lawyers from Denver 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.000 have great expertise. They know all that what's out there 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.760 against her, but um, it was an interesting tactic. They 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.000 wanted to be able to identify the accusers by name. 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.720 It's called protective orders, and they're becoming really common nowadays 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.080 for federal prosecutors to say that the lawyers will give 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.040 you the evidence, but you are prohibited from releasing it 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:59.080 to anyone and you could face criminal prosecution if you 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:02.400 leak it to one. So that's a way of keeping 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.920 things out of anyone else's hands, and it's just about 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.880 the lawyer's eyes only. But what they wanted to do 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.000 is they would see the names of the victims, and 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.280 they wanted to say the names of any victim that 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:17.040 had possibly in a tweet or on a Reddit posting 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.440 said oh yeah, hashtag me too, I was an Epstein victim, 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.640 or I agree with you he's a terrible person, or whatever. 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:25.520 They wanted to be able. They said that was in 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:27.960 the public forum, and they wanted to be able to 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:31.000 name those people. The judge in the criminal case said no, 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.880 but it's an interesting um argument. And the thing that 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:39.280 was also interesting that Judge Prescus stated in her ruling 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.240 she was kind of surprised by Maxwell trying to keep 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:46.120 her testimony from becoming public basically, Presca said, when asked 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.240 about all this activity, she basically denied knowing anything that's 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:51.880 going on. So like, how bad could it be if 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:56.480 she basically doesn't answer questions or denies anything. What did 0:08:56.520 --> 0:09:02.000 you learn from the documents that were released already? You know, 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:08.839 it's it's dizzy and uh, mind boggling, how intense all this, 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.080 you know, these what these girls went through. I mean 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.360 I had read most of the stuff before, but when 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.800 you go back, one of the things Virginia Jufrey wrote 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:22.240 was called The Billionaire Playboys Club, and it was like 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.840 a novel that she serialized or novelized her life, and 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.720 it was it's like stunning too when you read, you know, 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.480 sixteen year old going to the South of France for 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:40.040 Naomi Campbell's birthday party, and what happens when you go 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:45.120 there when all these potentates and wealthy men are there. 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:49.240 And she said she was, you know, gots struck by 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:51.960 how amazing she was with all these celebrities wearing a 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:54.800 pretty dress that the night ends up getting her farmed 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:58.040 out to a wealthy man as a friend of Jeffrey Epstein. 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.280 It's so tawdry and it's it's really kind of you 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.559 know how Epstein had a lot of connections, a lot 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.280 of friends. There he is kissing Naomi Campbell. There's delay 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.959 Maxwell kissing Naomi Campbell Hello friends and getting invited to 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.200 her birthday party in the south of France in Santo Pay. 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.880 But you can kind of see how these poor kids 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.360 might have gotten. Some of them came from very broken 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:23.680 homes or runaways or came from troubled homes, and Epstein 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:27.880 and Maxwell allegedly kind of hooked up on those people 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.760 to lure them into their world. We also saw a 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:37.040 very unusual thing, which was Maxwell's lawyers claimed that after 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:41.120 in the last ten years, Maxwell had not had any 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:45.000 communication with Epstein and they proffered that to the judge 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.600 and asking for bail, that she had nothing to do 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.480 with him and she hasn't spoken to him for ten years. 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.480 And what was released by Judge Prescott also on Thursday 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:59.640 were a series of emails that Epstein traded with Maxwell 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:05.280 in January, basically him telling her how to handle this 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:09.520 flare up of Geuffrey making these allegations against her being 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.679 ef steamed, madam, you know, hold your head up high, 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:18.880 go to parties. These women are they're just gossip mongers. Um, 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:21.680 it's it's pretty interesting. They seem to have had a 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:26.920 very close relationship. Even still despite what the lawyer claimed 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:31.600 that it had been ten years. Here was January, these 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:36.640 emails were exchanged. Since the second Circuit already ordered these 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.280 documents released before, what are the chances that they'll now 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:45.000 say no, don't release them. Yeah, that's a good, very 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:49.720 good question. And what the circuit did originally and last 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.840 year it's ordered much of the documents. There was apparently 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.760 some just some agreements that the document certain documents already 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.439 got released. That's how we got those two thousand last August. 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.760 But they also directed there were some documents that should 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.959 go back to the trial judge or a lower court judge, 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.839 which is how PRESCO got it to determine what should 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.280 be you know, filtered, what should be redacted, What was 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.880 anything named anybody that had never come public before. So 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.360 it really is going to be interesting. I don't know 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.520 exactly who's on the panel, and I think we know 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.400 two judges and um, it remains to be seen if 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.120 the three judges on the in the panel how they 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.760 view this latest attempt by her, because they've already and 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:37.040 they also have the comments Judge Presco has made. She's 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.720 done the review in camera looking at Maxwell's testimony, and 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.640 she said, I don't have a problem releasing this. And 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:47.000 then she also argued, Uh, the judgment noted in her 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:52.160 ruling that Maxwell had been charged on July second, and 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:56.160 yet her lawyers didn't bother coming to her and saying, oh, no, 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.200 we have a criminal case. Now halt the release of 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:03.960 these documents until like last week. So she's like, what, 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:06.200 what took you three weeks to come to me? Um? 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.720 She called it an eleventh hour last effort. Just update 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:15.320 us on where Maxwell is right now and are there 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:20.280 any more attempts on her part to get released? So far, 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.520 we haven't seen anything like that. Um. If she's in 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:29.760 the Brooklyn lock up and by Sunset Park, by the 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.800 b QUE, it's probably kind of grim. She probably will 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.200 make another effort. The judge is basically said, because of 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.440 her ties, because she's a you know, French citizen, she 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.560 could go to France and flee and then she couldn't 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.760 be extradited. So, um, you know, the next step we 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:52.280 have is oral arguments in September. I suspect that her 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.800 lawyers are going to make a full throated the sense 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:59.800 of her on both tacks, you know, both the guffre 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.319 versus Maxwell lawsuits, civil suits as well as you know, 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.559 making filings. I mean, what we saw was really unusual. 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:11.080 It was this effort to the bid Bibo defense lawyers 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.920 to name the victims, which is pretty unheard of. And 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.000 the judge kind of noted that that victims are you know, 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:22.040 accorded a certain amount of privacy, and you know, it 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:27.040 might even seem like an attempt to quiet the women 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:30.640 of the female accusers. A lot of these defense tactics 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:35.600 like naming the alleged victims seem manipulative and tawdry, and 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:41.120 if they're worried about pre trial publicity influencing potential jurors, 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:45.800 these tactics certainly wouldn't endear them to potential jurors. Yeah, 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:50.760 I I agree with you. It doesn't look, um, particularly 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:56.280 endearing for a defendant to go after people who your 0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:01.320 young women who were you know, thirteen fourteen years of age. Um. 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.280 But I guess you know, we certainly saw that out 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:09.920 of Epstein, where his lawyers argued that these were transactions 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:14.880 with young women who were basically prostitutes, and the judge 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.640 who had that case, raised his eyebrow and said that 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.440 these are underage girls, so it doesn't matter if they 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:24.520 supposedly were engaging in which you call like legitimate transactions 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.760 or consensual. How can it be consensual when they're underage. 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:31.800 You don't have consent when you're fifteen. So um, it 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:33.600 remains to be seen. You know. I guess it's a 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.560 fine narrow line they're gonna have to tread. Maybe they're 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:41.880 hoping that they'll just do a full throttle defensive galine 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:46.480 at before trial, and then maybe the judge won't be endeared, 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.640 but at least they'll be defending her their client, And 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.920 then maybe they're hoping that any potential jurors will forget 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.760 by the time they get to jury selection in July 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.200 of next year. Thanks for being on the Bloomberg Law Show, Pat, 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:04.080 That's what is Sha Hurtado, Bloomberg Legal reporter. A federal 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.560 appeals court has thrown out Joe Harsnayev's death sentence in 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.760 the Boston marathon bombing. A three judge panel of the 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.840 First Circuit Court of Appeals ordered a new penalty phase 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.880 trial on whether the twenty seven year old Sir Nieves 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.040 should be executed for the attack that killed three people 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.560 and wounded more than two hundred sixty others. The panel 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.720 said there was massive media coverage and the trial judge 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:31.880 did not adequately screen jurors for potential biases. Sir Nieve 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.080 will spend the rest of his life in prison, but 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:36.200 it will be up to the U. S. Attorney's Office 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.440 to decide whether to appeal the decision or retry the 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.880 death penalty portion of the case. My guest is Robert Bloom, 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:46.840 a professor at Boston College Law School. The appellate court 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:52.120 said the jurors weren't properly screened. How so, what problems 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.320 did they find with the screening. Well, one of the 0:16:55.440 --> 0:17:00.680 major problems was the use of social media, especially twitters 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:05.280 or read twitters or whatever they call it. And apparently 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:12.240 one juror tweeted that he called there of garbage and 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.439 the judge, who asked a lot of questions about media, 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:20.119 didn't really get into the social media. So the appellate 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:24.720 Court wanted to make sure that the jury which which 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:29.560 decided on sentencing was fear and they said that the 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.840 judge should have done more. The judge did a good bit, 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.360 but he should have done more to make sure that 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:42.000 nobody was using social media or was reading newspapers. In addition, 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.880 one of the jurors said he didn't stay at home 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:47.720 during the time that they were looking. He had a 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:52.600 shelter in place, and he apparently said he didn't, but 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:58.000 he actually did. So there's some indication of a lack 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:02.960 of fairness given bias of those particular drawers. Can a 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.879 judge really find out if someone is lying in that respect? 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.440 I mean, how can I judge monitor social media? Isn't 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.680 up to the lawyers, the defense and the prosecution to 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.000 bring forth some things that might be troubling about a juror. 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.840 There's just so much out there these days. And what 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.520 what's supposed to occur as the jurors are seated is 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:29.960 something called wada, and the judge will get questions from 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:34.960 both sides and we'll ask those questions. There's no there's 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:39.000 very little investigative peace. The lawyers don't know who the 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.200 drawers are going to be. It's a big pool. This 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:47.640 judge also had questionnaires for the drawers, which both attorneys got, 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:53.480 so so there's not an investigative The investigation comes from 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:57.200 asking questions and you hope the drawers are telling the truth. 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.080 One of the primary defense are events was that it 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:05.359 was error to even hold the trial in Boston. What 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.159 did the appellate courts say about that? They only focused 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.800 in on the sentencing hearing, So I guess they concluded 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:18.240 that holding trial itself not the sentencing hearing. By the way, 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.200 the sentencing hearing is the continuation of the trial. They 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:25.800 felt that was okay. Apparently they described the media attention 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.800 as unrivaled in American legal history, and the O. J. 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.199 Simpson trial came to mind, because with the O. J. 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:36.520 Simpson trial, people were watching every minute of it across 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:40.879 the country. You're in Boston. Was it a microcosm of 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:45.680 that in Boston for this trial? Absolutely there were news 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:51.359 reports Daley, and you know, initially was the horror of 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:56.959 the marathon bombing in the capture of Tanara. Almost on 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:02.400 a daily basis, deal was news media reports about the marathon. 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.840 So there was a great deal of publicity. Certainly there 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:12.040 was all kinds of media attention, TV radio, a lot 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:16.040 of it. If this decision stands, the defense will try 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:19.360 to move the case out of Boston again, most likely, 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:24.760 so seven years later, is the same bias evident in 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:29.640 Boston as it was before, Well, it's obviously less. The 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:33.200 heelicourt didn't say you can't have it in Boston. They 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.200 just said, if you decide to have it anywhere, make 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:42.199 sure you ask enough questions so that decision makers, the 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:47.280 jurors will act fairly. In a death penalty VOI dear, 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:51.600 doesn't that always get you a jury that is perhaps 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.880 more pro law then you would ordinarily get because they're 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:58.120 able to say, yes, I'd give someone the death penalty. 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.680 You know, it's it's more the notion of considering it. 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.640 If they say they adamantly against the death penalty, then 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.719 obviously they would be challenged and they wouldn't be allowed 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:10.720 to sit on the second time around. What can a 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:16.680 judge do to try to ensure that there are unbiased jurors. Well, 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:20.639 he certainly can ask more questions about social media. He 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:24.760 can ask questions about whether or not somebody was sheltered 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.240 in place, so they can do a good deal more 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.879 of that kind of situation. By the way, they judge 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:34.920 didn't do a bad job. He had a long questionnaire 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.240 and what the just to screen out a bunch of 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:42.480 durs and then many questions were asked, but what there 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:46.439 took a while, but there were still some problems. According 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:50.000 to the Court of Appeals, So Sir Nayev's attorneys, in 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.199 trying to avoid the death sentence, argued that his older 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:58.359 brother had orchestrated the attack and influenced his younger brother. Yeah, 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:02.919 especially during the sentencing part of the trial. One of 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:07.280 the defenses arguments was that he was under the influence 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:11.840 of his older brother, so that the relationship with the 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:18.359 older brother was certainly an important part of the sentencing piece, 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:23.960 So tell us more about the brother well. The judge 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:30.880 refused to allow the notion that the brother was alleged 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:36.920 and being investigated for two thousand and twelve murder and um. 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:44.520 The appellate court thought that was important, especially if one 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:46.960 of the arguments that the defense was making that he 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:49.560 was under the influence of his brother. And if you 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.919 are under the influence of your brother and you know 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:57.080 that your brother has killed in the past, are alleged 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:02.040 to have killed in the past, then isn't that increase 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:06.639 the influence peace? And the appellate court thought that the 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:10.040 judge made an error in not allowing that information. In 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:17.080 judges are so reluctant to move trials for obvious reasons. 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:19.120 But do you think the judge in this case really 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:22.879 should have moved the trial? Well, um, you know, a 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:27.080 more apt example would probably be the Timothy McVeigh case, 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:32.600 where the trial judge did not have the trial in 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:38.080 Oklahoma City. I believe it was moved to Colorado. The 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:43.400 marathon in Boston is like the Fourth of July apple 0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:49.720 Pie and the Red Sox. It's very big here in Boston, 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:58.000 So messing with this tradition was upsetting too many in 0:23:58.040 --> 0:24:02.520 Greater Boston. M Some legal observers say that the U. S. 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:06.440 Attorney might go straight to the Supreme Court with an appeal. Well, 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:09.719 if they do that, okay, I'm not sure the Supreme 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:12.720 Court will take it because, as you read the decision, 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:15.600 there's a lot of facts that are that are utilized 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:19.800 by the appellate court, and usually the Supreme Court doesn't 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:24.280 want to get involved with all the facts that the 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:31.159 appellate court addressed. So my best guess is that it 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:36.040 won't be appealed to the Supreme Court at any rate. 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:39.840 If it is appealed to the Supreme Court, and for 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:42.840 some reason which I doubt, the Supreme court were to 0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:47.520 take it. Then if they overturn the first circuit, then 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:50.800 the death penalty would still be on the table. On 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:54.080 the other hand, if they don't appeal it, the U. S. 0:24:54.119 --> 0:25:00.000 Attorney with possibly the Justice Department in Washington being involved, 0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:06.120 can retry SNAr with regard to the sentencing piece. Automatically, 0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:09.360 you can do it. The Peller Court said they throughout 0:25:09.400 --> 0:25:11.320 the initial one, but they said you could do it 0:25:11.359 --> 0:25:14.719 again if you wanted, and is it likely that they 0:25:14.760 --> 0:25:17.880 will do it again. The victims would have to relive 0:25:18.200 --> 0:25:21.640 this all over again if there's a retrial of the 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:27.280 penalty phase. There was a letter published at the time 0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:30.480 of the sentencing phase, or as it was about to begin. 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:35.200 The Richards family who lost I believe it was an 0:25:35.200 --> 0:25:38.200 eight year old son. A younger daughter I think she 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:41.600 was five or six lost the leg. The nature of 0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:46.000 the letter was, please don't give him the death penalty 0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:48.760 because this thing will be appealed and appealed and appealed, 0:25:48.760 --> 0:25:51.159 and we want to get it behind us. And what 0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:57.520 they predicted was absolutely correct. In addition, Greater Boston community 0:25:57.680 --> 0:26:01.280 we had to relive the horror of that day. If 0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:05.120 the government had taken the death penalty off the table. 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:08.560 He would have admitted guilt, he would have gotten a 0:26:08.680 --> 0:26:12.040 life sentence. He would have been sent for the rest 0:26:12.040 --> 0:26:17.160 of his natural life to Supermax and Flawrence, Colorado, which 0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:19.959 is where he is now. And that would have been 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:24.439 that and we wouldn't have to relive it. Instead, you know, 0:26:24.680 --> 0:26:31.320 the story of the whole marathon bombing turned into the 0:26:31.400 --> 0:26:38.199 story after the bombing was about courageous police and bystanders 0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:42.560 and the medical community. And everybody was wearing shirts as 0:26:42.600 --> 0:26:47.399 a Boston Strong, and the Watertown police will be wearing 0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:51.439 shirts calling the Watertown Strong. It was just it was 0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:56.400 just great to see how the community was coming together. 0:26:57.000 --> 0:27:00.399 There was an unbelievable memorial right across us from the 0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:04.480