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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Our dominant model and narrative is that we should deny, reduce,

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Speaker 2: and avoid stress, and that is not always the case.

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Speaker 2: Every single person I know can tell of the time

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Speaker 2: where their stress helps them.

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Speaker 1: That's Madubay Aquinola, a professor at the Columbia Business School

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Speaker 1: and an expert on stress. Madubay's on a mission to

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Speaker 1: change how we think about short term stress, the kind

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Speaker 1: we feel when we're preparing for a big presentation at

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Speaker 1: work or before a difficult conversation with a friend. She says,

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Speaker 1: we can reframe our stress as something that actually helps us.

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Speaker 2: It's often your mindset about stress that can influence the

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Speaker 2: extent to which it can have harmful or helpful effects.

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Speaker 2: So when we have more of a stress is enhancing

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Speaker 2: mindset that leads to better outcomes.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, What Science teaches Us about the Upside

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Speaker 1: of Stress, I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight

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Speaker 1: change of plans, a show about who we are and

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Speaker 1: who we become in the face of a big change.

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Speaker 1: It's easy for us to see stress as the enemy.

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Speaker 1: In a stressful situation, our heart races, our blood pressure rises,

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Speaker 1: our breathing quickens, and this can all feel pretty uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: If we could wave a magic wand that would eliminate

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Speaker 1: all future stress from our lives, many of us would

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Speaker 1: wave that wand, and the dow Pay believes that if

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Speaker 1: we can make a small shift in our mindset, stress

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Speaker 1: can actually be a powerful asset. So, madiuve, can you

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Speaker 1: start off by sharing what it is that got you

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Speaker 1: interested in studying stress in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Basically, I grew up as a child of immigrants, and

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Speaker 2: anyone who is a child of immigrants knows that there

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Speaker 2: is just stress involved in that experience. The stress of

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Speaker 2: moving to a new country, the stress of having kids,

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Speaker 2: raising kids in a new environment, the stress of being

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Speaker 2: far away from your family if you've come from a

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Speaker 2: developing country, being able to support your family while also

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Speaker 2: trying to help your kids learn a new language here,

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Speaker 2: all of that, and so I realized later on in

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Speaker 2: life that I had absorbed a lot of that stress. Heck,

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Speaker 2: to this day, I still watch my parents' stress and

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Speaker 2: have to say to myself, wait a minute, pause, do

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Speaker 2: all the things that I advise other people to do.

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Speaker 2: So that is a piece of why a study stress.

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Speaker 2: But also one of the things I love about my

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Speaker 2: parents was that they were very education focused, and so

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Speaker 2: the stress of doing well in school, not even just

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Speaker 2: the pressure that they put on us. They didn't put

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Speaker 2: much pressure on us. They just sent us to one

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Speaker 2: of the best private schools possible and said, you know,

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Speaker 2: you do you. But in that process that meant that

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Speaker 2: I experienced the stress of being one a few black

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Speaker 2: people in every classroom I was in. So then there's

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Speaker 2: a stress of adjusting and adapting to environments where you

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Speaker 2: are the only where you're different. So all of those

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Speaker 2: things combined led to me eventually studying stress.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this charming story in the Dufet about your

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Speaker 1: high school yearbook and the fact that clearly you weren't

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Speaker 1: the only one thinking that you were stressed out. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell us a bit about that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So, you know, in high school usually you have

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Speaker 2: a yearbook, and in our yearbook there are roasts. In

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Speaker 2: those roasts, it highlights who you think you are and

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Speaker 2: who you actually are. And my dream was that I

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Speaker 2: was best dressed, is what they said. But my reality

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Speaker 2: was that I was the most stressed. So even senior year,

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Speaker 2: you know, even senior year, they saw that in me,

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Speaker 2: and I saw it in myself. But the thing about

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Speaker 2: it is there were so many ways in which that

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Speaker 2: stress helped me. It challenged me, and it pushed me.

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Speaker 2: So I kind of always felt like stress isn't always

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Speaker 2: this terrible thing that we need to run away from

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Speaker 2: and avoid and deny. Maybe it is helping us in

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Speaker 2: some ways too.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with the basics. If you can give

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Speaker 1: us kind of the stress one oh one, how do

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Speaker 1: you define stress?

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Speaker 2: I feel like the simplest definition is when the demands

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Speaker 2: of a situation exceed your resources to cope. But you

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Speaker 2: have to then take it a step further and say, well,

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Speaker 2: what are demands? And often demands are there's some type

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Speaker 2: of danger in the situation, there's some type of uncertainty,

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Speaker 2: you need to exert a lit what a bit of

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Speaker 2: extra effort in this situation. Then when you think about resources, well,

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Speaker 2: what helps us overcome danger, uncertainty, extra effort we need

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Speaker 2: to put into something, Well, when we have the knowledge

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Speaker 2: and the abilities to tackle that thing, when our personalities,

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Speaker 2: our dispositions can be helpful in tackling that thing, and

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Speaker 2: also when we have external support, other people cheering us on,

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Speaker 2: other people teaching us. That's when we have more resources.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting about this definition is that when it comes

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Speaker 1: to stress, it's really about our subjective assessment that we

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Speaker 1: have the resources to cope. So it might not be

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Speaker 1: the objective resources. In fact, I might have the mental

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Speaker 1: and physical resources to cope with the situation. But if

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Speaker 1: my self perception is that I don't have those resources now,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it is a stressful situation. So

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Speaker 1: I would almost reframe the definition as feeling like the

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Speaker 1: demands of the situation exceed your resources to cope. Is

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Speaker 1: that right?

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Speaker 2: Yet a lot of it is our subjective assessment of it,

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Speaker 2: which is a piece of why I tell people don't

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Speaker 2: say like, don't be stressed, that shouldn't stress you out,

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Speaker 2: because it doesn't matter Subjectively, I am feeling stressed. So

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Speaker 2: that's what needs to be taken into consideration, my subjective

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Speaker 2: experience of it.

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Speaker 1: On a physiological level, can you tell us what happens

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Speaker 1: to us when we experience stress?

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Speaker 2: So when we experience stress, our sympathetic nervous system gets activated.

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Speaker 2: It's that part of our body that tells us do

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Speaker 2: you need to fight or do you need to flee

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Speaker 2: this situation? And when that happens, we get adrenaline, We

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Speaker 2: get dopamine, we get cortisol, all of the resources we

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Speaker 2: need physiologically to move to act, to do what we

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Speaker 2: need to do. This process is a very adaptive one,

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Speaker 2: so that when you're done with the stressor ideally your

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Speaker 2: body wants to go back to its resting state, where

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Speaker 2: those hormones decrease, that adrenaline decreased, you get back to

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Speaker 2: resting and relaxing and all that. That is a normal

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Speaker 2: physiological response to an acute stressor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love your sharing that, because stress obviously gets

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Speaker 1: a really bad rep but it's not just this random

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Speaker 1: bad thing that our bodies experience. It exists in part

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Speaker 1: because it is highly adaptive, and there are many situations

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Speaker 1: in which an active stress response helps us do what

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Speaker 1: needs to be done. So, in other words, you mentioned cortisol, dopamine, adrenaline,

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Speaker 1: How do those translate into increased performance increased acuity? Just

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Speaker 1: help me build that bridge.

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Speaker 2: So essentially, your body is being taxed and your heart

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Speaker 2: rate is increasing because again you're getting ready. That cortisol

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Speaker 2: is giving you the energy that you need to be attentive,

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Speaker 2: to be focused, to approach the situation. And when you

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Speaker 2: have increased cortisol, you are attentive to threats, often in

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Speaker 2: a good way. You're like waiting for what's happening. You're

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Speaker 2: able to remember things in a different way, and so

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Speaker 2: we need to remember when our bodies are acting. It's

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Speaker 2: telling us you've got this, now, let's use this. But

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Speaker 2: one of the problems is when we can be overactivated

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Speaker 2: and too attentive to threat and those levels of the dopamine,

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Speaker 2: the cord is the adrenaline, all that are staying elevated

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Speaker 2: kind of chronically, and that is what leads to disease

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Speaker 2: and all of these problems that we want to avoid physiologically.

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Speaker 2: So that's kind of the stress cycle.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so now you've given us the lay of the

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Speaker 1: land on the basics of stress. Yes, one fascinating thing

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Speaker 1: your research focuses on is that how we think about

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Speaker 1: our own stress, our mindset, and our attitude towards stress

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Speaker 1: can actually change its impact on us. Yes, can you

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Speaker 1: first walk us through the two types of mindsets that

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Speaker 1: we can have towards stress.

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Speaker 2: So the two types of mindsets are a mindset that

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Speaker 2: stress is enhancing. It can help us in terms of

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Speaker 2: our perform orments, our growth, our learning. The second piece

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Speaker 2: is that stress is debilitating. It harms us in terms

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Speaker 2: of our health and vitality and our performance and our

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Speaker 2: growth in our learning. And it's often your mindset about

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Speaker 2: stress that can influence the extent to which it can

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Speaker 2: have harmful or helpful effects. So when we have more

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Speaker 2: of a stress is enhancing mindset that leads to better outcomes.

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Speaker 1: I love this research. I'm wondering if you can give

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Speaker 1: me a couple of examples of how introducing this mindset

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Speaker 1: shift was actually able to help performance in different contexts.

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Speaker 2: So in one study, we had people just watch a

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Speaker 2: video showing the many ways in which stress can be enhancing.

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Speaker 2: You can imagine things like that stressful moment in a

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Speaker 2: soccer game and somebody makes the goal. We can each

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Speaker 2: think of times when we have risen to the occasion.

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Speaker 2: When we show people these videos and then have them

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Speaker 2: engage in a creative task, we find the they're more creative.

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Speaker 2: We find that they are more attentive to positive things

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Speaker 2: in the environment versus negative things in the environment. On

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Speaker 2: the flip side, tell people or show them videos of

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Speaker 2: when stress can be debilitating and see the opposite, they're

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Speaker 2: less creative and also generally more negative mood more attentive

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Speaker 2: to threats. So that's some of the research we've done.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know that you work at a business

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Speaker 1: school and you often think about psychology as it applies

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Speaker 1: to organizational behavior. Yeah, and you did some similar research

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Speaker 1: when it comes to negotiators.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so often people are very stressed in the context

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Speaker 2: of negotiation. So in this research, we basically just told

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Speaker 2: people that, you know, a little bit of stress before

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Speaker 2: negotiations is actually okay. So we had half the people

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Speaker 2: we told that, the other half we didn't tell anything

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Speaker 2: prior to negotiation, and we found that for women who

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Speaker 2: experienced cortisol increases in the negotiations, so physiologically they were stressed. However,

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Speaker 2: they were told a little bit of stress is okay

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Speaker 2: in the negotiation, they outperformed those who were told nothing

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Speaker 2: about stress being helpful for negotiations. So there's something about

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Speaker 2: knowing that this is actually an okay thing, that when

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Speaker 2: your body is having this response, that can lead to

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Speaker 2: beneficial outcomes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And one of the most fascinating insights is that

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Speaker 1: our underlying physiology can change when we adopt a stress

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Speaker 1: as enhancing mindset. So it's not just that I think

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Speaker 1: more positive thoughts, it actually can affect our physiological response

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Speaker 1: to stress at this underlying level.

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Speaker 2: I think that that's absolutely right, that when you have

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Speaker 2: an enhancing mindset, it can affect your body's response to stress.

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Speaker 2: There has been research showing that the walls of your

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Speaker 2: blood vessels, rather than constricting, they are more likely to

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Speaker 2: dilate with a stress. Is enhancing mindset and the importance

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Speaker 2: of the mind body cannet is something I think we

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Speaker 2: often forget. And you know, our dominant model and narrative

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Speaker 2: is that we should deny, reduce and avoid stress, and

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Speaker 2: that is not always the case. Every single person I

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Speaker 2: know can tell of the time where their stress helps them.

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Speaker 2: So instead, in this research we talk a lot about

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Speaker 2: how can you acknowledge your stress, welcome your stress, and

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Speaker 2: use it in a way that will be beneficial because

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Speaker 2: it is designed to help you. Now, it's important to say,

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying run towards stress, like you shouldn't like

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Speaker 2: find more stressors. No, that's not what we're saying. We're

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Speaker 2: saying it's not always a bad thing. It's actually designed

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Speaker 2: to help you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you talk about dating your stress, Yes, you know

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Speaker 1: slight change listeners. We're simply asking for a first date. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you can decide if you want to do a second

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Speaker 1: or a third that just go on that first date.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Get to know your stress a little better

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Speaker 1: and brace it and.

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Speaker 2: Be kind to it. Open the door for it, you know,

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Speaker 2: let it in, welcome it, see how it feels. That's

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Speaker 2: what we need to do a lot more of.

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Speaker 1: After the break, we hear more from a Dubet about

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Speaker 1: the benefits of this mindset shift, and we talk about

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Speaker 1: its limits. She shares her go to strategies for managing stress.

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Speaker 1: When a simple reframe isn't enough, We'll be back in

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Speaker 1: a moment with a slight change of plans. Are there

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Speaker 1: situations where applying a stress is enhancing mindset? Doesn't make

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Speaker 1: sense because I can see a situation where if we

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Speaker 1: apply this mindset too liberally, we might end up tolerating

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Speaker 1: certain stressful situations that we really should try and avoid. So,

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Speaker 1: for example, a highly toxic relationship at work or in

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Speaker 1: your personal life, that's a situation where you're kind of

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Speaker 1: you really think, okay, we need to change the situation.

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Speaker 1: I need to get out of this situation, versus using

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Speaker 1: a mindset shift in order to better adapt to it.

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Speaker 1: So do you have thoughts on that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do think that our minds are so complicated

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Speaker 2: and we will trick ourselves into believing a stressful situation

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Speaker 2: is a good one when it's not. So that's when

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Speaker 2: the idea. Remember I talked about demands resources. One resource

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Speaker 2: is external support, your friends helping you and seeing when

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Speaker 2: something is harmful versus helpful for you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's helpful to clarify that this is

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Speaker 1: a mindset that's almost best to adopt when you're in

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Speaker 1: situations where you can't avoid the stress or you can't

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Speaker 1: control whether that situation exists or not, right, and so

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Speaker 1: adopting a more positive mindset might be one of the

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Speaker 1: few resources at hand.

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Speaker 2: That's absolutely right. And the challenge with the dominant narrative

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Speaker 2: about reducing or avoiding stress is that there are times

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Speaker 2: where we cannot do that. You can't, it's not possible.

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Speaker 2: So that's why it's important to understand how the stress

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Speaker 2: that you're experiencing or how your body's response can be helpful.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, so many people listening right now are thinking I

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Speaker 1: don't have any control right now over the stressful situation.

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Speaker 1: So Madupe, thank you for giving us some other techniques. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: let's say we've consulted with our resources, so our friends

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Speaker 1: and our family and the people that we trust in

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Speaker 1: our lives, and we've consulted with ourselves of course, and

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Speaker 1: we've identified a situation in which having a stress as

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Speaker 1: enhancing mindset is going to serve us. Well, how do

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Speaker 1: we learn to cultivate this mindset?

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Speaker 2: So a piece of this goes back to that, how

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Speaker 2: do I think of my stress differently? When my heart

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Speaker 2: is beating. I'm normally thinking to myself, this is bad.

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Speaker 2: But if you can remind yourself that my heart beating

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Speaker 2: is telling me, like I'm excited about something, there's something

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Speaker 2: here that I care about. This is something that I

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Speaker 2: want to do well in. This is something that I

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Speaker 2: can do well in. Then that reframes that heartbeat not

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Speaker 2: as a bad thing, but as your body preparing to act.

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Speaker 1: There have been so many times in my life, whether

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Speaker 1: when I was a child playing the violin, or whether

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Speaker 1: it's going into an interviews for a slight change of plans,

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Speaker 1: I get a little spooked if I'm not nervous, because

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Speaker 1: that means maybe I don't care as much as I

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Speaker 1: used to. And so I'm actually I see stress as

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Speaker 1: being a very affirming signal because it shows me that

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Speaker 1: I really care about the outcome, and it justifies the

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Speaker 1: unpleasantness of some of those feelings.

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Speaker 2: And that's a beautiful way of approaching it. That we

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Speaker 2: are typically stressed because there is an underlying reason why

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Speaker 2: we care about the situation. And if we can continue

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Speaker 2: to ask ourselves why, why why, then that puts a

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Speaker 2: whole different lens around why you're stressed and changes your approach.

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Speaker 1: Can you give me an example in the dupe from

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Speaker 1: your own life in which you started asking yourself these

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Speaker 1: series of why questions and it led you to a

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Speaker 1: place where you're better able to embrace your stress or

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Speaker 1: at least realize okay, good, at least it's serving some purpose.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm a professor, so each semester I teach one

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Speaker 2: hundred and forty plus students and the day before class

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Speaker 2: would always feel very stressed. And here's the thing, it's

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Speaker 2: not that I'd also be stressed. I'd also be a jerk,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'd be obnoxious to my loved ones, like

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Speaker 2: just not a person that anyone wanted to be around.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, i'd be happier when my significant others

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Speaker 2: were traveling or whatever, because it's like I just wanted

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Speaker 2: to be focused, and I had to ask say to myself,

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Speaker 2: first of all, that's not sustainable over time. I'm a

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Speaker 2: good teacher. Students like me. I've done this for years.

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Speaker 2: So I had to say, Okay, well why do you

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Speaker 2: have this reaction? Why are you stressed? And often it

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Speaker 2: was like, I'm stressed because I don't want to do

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Speaker 2: badly in the classroom. Why because I feel like what

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Speaker 2: I have to share with students is really important. Why

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Speaker 2: because I'm training future business leaders to be the most

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Speaker 2: phenomenal leaders possible. Why well, if I do that well,

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Speaker 2: then our organizations will be healthier and people will be

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Speaker 2: happier in their workplaces. Why does that matter? Because if

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Speaker 2: people are happier and healthier in their workplaces, then we're

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Speaker 2: going to be able to address some of the critical

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Speaker 2: challenges in this world. The questions that need to be addressed,

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Speaker 2: solve lots of the problems that need to be solved.

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Speaker 2: And so when you get to that, then it's like, well, a,

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Speaker 2: it tells you that's a good reason to be stressed,

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Speaker 2: but be it also says, you know, all right, well,

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Speaker 2: go get it, go do it. And that's a piece

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Speaker 2: of just kind of like acknowledging that type of stress

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Speaker 2: and welcoming it, because then you're like, oh, I'm pumped

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Speaker 2: up because what am I doing. I'm changing the world.

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling right now hearing just that process, just that

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Speaker 2: process makes a big difference.

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Speaker 1: I really love that, Madupe, because as you were sharing this,

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Speaker 1: I related to that early stress, and I was thinking

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Speaker 1: to myself that damn well deserves stress. That situation definitely

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Speaker 1: desert stress because the dupe is changing the world, and

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Speaker 1: so it certainly seems like that lecture carries significance and

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Speaker 1: importance because look at all these extremely positive downstream consequences.

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Speaker 2: Right, And the more I do that, then it tells me, like,

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Speaker 2: I don't have to be a jerky.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, share more about that, because obviously stress does not

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Speaker 1: just have internal consequences. It can have a lot of

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Speaker 1: external consequences on our loved ones and the people we

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Speaker 1: care about. Yeah, So I'd love to dig into that

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Speaker 1: a bit more. I'm sure that's something a lot of

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Speaker 1: people can resonate with.

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Speaker 2: Yes, one of the first things I tell people to

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Speaker 2: do is to acknowledge your typical reactions to stress. What

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Speaker 2: are their emotions, what are their behaviors, and what's their physiology?

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Speaker 2: And the behaviors one is really important because a it

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Speaker 2: serves as a signal when you are going for the

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Speaker 2: potato chips, the wine and yelling at your partner, that

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Speaker 2: probably means you're stressed. So now do an inventory about

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Speaker 2: what you need to do about it. And the reason

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Speaker 2: why it's really important for me to always kind of

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Speaker 2: go back and ask myself why something matters is that

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Speaker 2: ultimately none of us wants to do those destructive behaviors

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Speaker 2: to ourselves and to others. And so when you keep

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Speaker 2: asking yourself why and you understand the bigger picture, one

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Speaker 2: of the things it does, it's like I need that

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Speaker 2: source of support to help we change the world. So

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Speaker 2: I think it increases your ability to relate to others

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Speaker 2: in a way that can maybe help you in what

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Speaker 2: you're trying to achieve, versus them being a distraction that's

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Speaker 2: preventing you from doing what you need to achieve effectively.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is so interesting because you initially defined stress

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Speaker 1: as the demands of the situation exceed your resources to cope,

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Speaker 1: And I think what I'm hearing from you is we

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Speaker 1: often have more resources than we think, we're just really

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Speaker 1: hesitant to ask for them, to admit that we actually

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Speaker 1: need that kind of support in those resources. And so

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Speaker 1: when we think through this lens, which is my stress

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Speaker 1: has a purpose because I really care about these end outcomes,

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Speaker 1: it can lead us to feel less sheepish about asking

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Speaker 1: a friend for help, asking a loved one if they're

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Speaker 1: willing to give us a hand. It's hard for all

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Speaker 1: of us to ask people for help. It's one of

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Speaker 1: the hardest things.

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Speaker 2: And what's interesting is when we don't ask somebody for help,

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Speaker 2: it's often because there is something that we're uncertain about,

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Speaker 2: or feel threatened about, we're worried about. One of the

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Speaker 2: ways I interpret what you're saying is that when you

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Speaker 2: kind of reframe your stress, the people that seem like

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Speaker 2: demands actually become resources. Yes, you can view them more

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Speaker 2: as resources versus as demands. You go from thinking of

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Speaker 2: it as the person who's taking away from my ability

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Speaker 2: to prepare for class to the person who is helping

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Speaker 2: me and can help me in what do I need

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Speaker 2: to do to make this difference in the lives of others?

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's so nice. You know, you've taught us how

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Speaker 1: changing our attitudes towards stress can lead to better outcomes,

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Speaker 1: and also how it is that we can cultivate this

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Speaker 1: kind of mindset. But of course, there are lots of

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Speaker 1: situations where we overshoot and a shift in mindset might

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Speaker 1: not be enough to tamp down that response. So what

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Speaker 1: other techniques would you recommend help us to just lower

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Speaker 1: our stress response overall in these kinds of situations. What

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Speaker 1: are the types of things that you do adubat to

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Speaker 1: manage your stress?

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Speaker 2: So I am I'm.

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Speaker 1: A big meditator, darn. I was hoping you wouldn't say meditation.

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Speaker 2: I know, I know, and I couldn't at one point too,

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Speaker 2: you know. And I remember, like when I was first

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Speaker 2: trying to meditate, I just fall asleep each time, like

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Speaker 2: give me five minutes. I am out immediately. But I

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Speaker 2: realize that I really need to slow my mind down.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's so much firing that for me when

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Speaker 2: I sit and I'm just present first thing in the morning,

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Speaker 2: that allows me to just have a different response to

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Speaker 2: the many things that will come my way during the day.

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Speaker 2: And I say that, and I don't like sounding woo

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Speaker 2: woo like I don't like sounding like that person.

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Speaker 1: Hey, meditation is science based, so there's nothing woo about it.

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Speaker 2: I have learned in my life that it's something that

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Speaker 2: I need, yeah, because it slows me down, and it's

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Speaker 2: been so helpful. Taking out some time to just kind

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Speaker 2: of be present with yourself helps you to think clearly

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Speaker 2: and act deliberately instead of being reactive. So one of

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Speaker 2: the types of meditations I engage in focuses on body scanning.

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Speaker 2: So you start with your head and you scan and

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Speaker 2: you just notice each of your bodily sensations. Because the

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Speaker 2: idea behind this is that any reaction we typically have

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Speaker 2: is preceded by a physical sensation, and so if we

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Speaker 2: can detect and be good at understanding or feeling our sensations,

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Speaker 2: then that's preempting our reacting immediately. And so I body

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Speaker 2: scan regularly and I find it to be incredibly helpful.

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Speaker 2: The other thing, honestly, it's just taking a moment to breathe.

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Speaker 2: That minute that I find myself like I'm overwhelmed and

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Speaker 2: I have this and that to do, and the this

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Speaker 2: isn't working whatever. Stop breathe, breathe, just breathe, and it

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Speaker 2: just slows things down in a unique way that then

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Speaker 2: lets you say, Okay, how am I feeling right now?

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Speaker 2: Let me take an inventory. That's what I often do.

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Speaker 2: I need to pause and take an inventory instead of

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Speaker 2: just trying to push through, stop and pause.

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Speaker 1: As you look into the future of stress research, what

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Speaker 1: excites you most?

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 1: What are you are you most hoping that researcher's crack.

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Speaker 2: I really want people to be better at understanding when

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Speaker 2: they're stressed, because you are the only person that's with

435
00:24:47,996 --> 00:24:51,436
Speaker 2: you twenty four to seven. And so what I'm most

436
00:24:51,476 --> 00:24:55,236
Speaker 2: excited about are some of the technologies that will allow

437
00:24:55,316 --> 00:24:59,396
Speaker 2: people to notice when they're stressed. Is there a buzzing

438
00:24:59,476 --> 00:25:02,716
Speaker 2: thing on your finger that tells you that your blood

439
00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:06,596
Speaker 2: pressure is super high right now? Pay attention. Is there

440
00:25:06,956 --> 00:25:09,596
Speaker 2: some type of device that is telling you, Okay, here's

441
00:25:09,596 --> 00:25:13,516
Speaker 2: what your cardiovascular reactivity is looking like right now, there's

442
00:25:13,556 --> 00:25:17,796
Speaker 2: a spike right here. Breathe a little bit. And so,

443
00:25:18,836 --> 00:25:23,196
Speaker 2: as technology develops and can even kind of help us

444
00:25:23,236 --> 00:25:25,756
Speaker 2: in noticing some of these things and can just kind

445
00:25:25,796 --> 00:25:27,276
Speaker 2: of like I think of it as like that blinking

446
00:25:27,356 --> 00:25:30,076
Speaker 2: light that says, hey, pay attention, then I think that'll

447
00:25:30,116 --> 00:25:32,676
Speaker 2: help us in being able to give ourselves what we need,

448
00:25:33,156 --> 00:25:36,996
Speaker 2: and that ultimately means it will be healthier and happier.

449
00:25:37,556 --> 00:25:40,276
Speaker 1: So that's interesting because I feel like I'm sort of

450
00:25:40,316 --> 00:25:42,836
Speaker 1: excited about technology, and I want to get your thoughts

451
00:25:42,876 --> 00:25:44,916
Speaker 1: on this, because on the one hand, I think that

452
00:25:44,996 --> 00:25:48,276
Speaker 1: kind of self awareness and understanding is so critical. On

453
00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:51,836
Speaker 1: the other hand, we're trying to measure so much, and

454
00:25:51,916 --> 00:25:54,956
Speaker 1: all these measurements are also just proxies of stress. Right,

455
00:25:55,316 --> 00:25:59,516
Speaker 1: too much vigilance around our physiological states and or our

456
00:25:59,556 --> 00:26:03,316
Speaker 1: mental states can breed almost a new kind of anxiety,

457
00:26:03,436 --> 00:26:06,156
Speaker 1: like a meta layer of anxiety. Do you feel in

458
00:26:06,156 --> 00:26:09,596
Speaker 1: any way that there's limits to how much we should

459
00:26:09,636 --> 00:26:11,756
Speaker 1: be in tune with our body and minds, because at

460
00:26:11,756 --> 00:26:14,956
Speaker 1: a certain point it can be so excessive where you

461
00:26:15,036 --> 00:26:17,076
Speaker 1: just forget, like, you know what, I just need to

462
00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:20,396
Speaker 1: kind of exist too, And I don't need my little

463
00:26:20,796 --> 00:26:22,916
Speaker 1: phone or my watch or my ring buzzing at me

464
00:26:22,996 --> 00:26:25,476
Speaker 1: telling me that I'm stressed in any given moment because

465
00:26:25,716 --> 00:26:27,316
Speaker 1: I'm just you know, I'm hanging out with my friends

466
00:26:27,356 --> 00:26:29,636
Speaker 1: and I don't know, maybe I don't want the biofeedback.

467
00:26:29,956 --> 00:26:35,276
Speaker 2: Yes, The thing about stress research, and I guess much research,

468
00:26:35,396 --> 00:26:37,556
Speaker 2: is that you have to know yourself and know what

469
00:26:37,596 --> 00:26:41,516
Speaker 2: works for you and what doesn't. If you're the type

470
00:26:41,516 --> 00:26:44,796
Speaker 2: of person where the constant monitoring will be more stressful,

471
00:26:44,836 --> 00:26:47,476
Speaker 2: then you shouldn't constantly monitor. But if you're the type

472
00:26:47,476 --> 00:26:51,236
Speaker 2: of person where the monitoring makes you say, ooh, I

473
00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:53,076
Speaker 2: only got two hours of sleep last night, but I

474
00:26:53,116 --> 00:26:55,436
Speaker 2: need to get more and I know and that helps

475
00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:58,676
Speaker 2: you and helps change your behavior, then do it. So

476
00:26:58,876 --> 00:27:00,716
Speaker 2: for me, I am one of those people like I'm

477
00:27:00,716 --> 00:27:03,196
Speaker 2: hard enough on myself, so I don't need a buzzing thing.

478
00:27:03,636 --> 00:27:05,956
Speaker 2: I need to be more gentle. But how I use

479
00:27:05,996 --> 00:27:08,716
Speaker 2: this technology is to say, like, I'm kind of feeling tired,

480
00:27:09,116 --> 00:27:11,996
Speaker 2: and how much rest did I get? Oh wow, I've

481
00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:14,836
Speaker 2: been in the danger zone for five days. Let me

482
00:27:15,716 --> 00:27:18,916
Speaker 2: do something that will remind me to get in bed early.

483
00:27:19,836 --> 00:27:24,916
Speaker 2: So if you can use it lovingly and gently in

484
00:27:24,956 --> 00:27:28,476
Speaker 2: a way that will help you behave in a healthy

485
00:27:28,556 --> 00:27:32,236
Speaker 2: way for you, that's what I'm talking about. I also

486
00:27:32,276 --> 00:27:35,316
Speaker 2: wouldn't want us to over use our technology and rely

487
00:27:35,436 --> 00:27:37,636
Speaker 2: on it to tell us the things that we need

488
00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:39,756
Speaker 2: to rely on our minds and bodies to tell us.

489
00:27:40,116 --> 00:27:43,516
Speaker 2: I just think of it as another metric to use

490
00:27:43,756 --> 00:27:47,116
Speaker 2: to paint a holistic picture of what's going on with you.

491
00:27:47,636 --> 00:27:49,836
Speaker 2: And because it's so hard to be in tune with

492
00:27:49,876 --> 00:27:52,236
Speaker 2: what our bodies are doing, because we've ignored our bodies

493
00:27:52,236 --> 00:27:55,836
Speaker 2: for so long, these technologies give us greater insight that

494
00:27:55,916 --> 00:27:57,476
Speaker 2: we wouldn't ordinarily have.

495
00:27:58,116 --> 00:28:00,516
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I think that's exactly right. So

496
00:28:00,596 --> 00:28:02,836
Speaker 1: you've been doing this work for a while, and I

497
00:28:02,916 --> 00:28:06,036
Speaker 1: wonder in your years of doing stress research, whether there's

498
00:28:06,676 --> 00:28:09,996
Speaker 1: any example that's particularly salient for you where someone reached

499
00:28:09,996 --> 00:28:12,276
Speaker 1: out to you and said, Madupe, you changed the game

500
00:28:12,316 --> 00:28:15,076
Speaker 1: for me, like you really really helped me manage the

501
00:28:15,156 --> 00:28:18,796
Speaker 1: stressful situation or change my mindset. Are there any personal

502
00:28:18,836 --> 00:28:20,956
Speaker 1: testimonials that you can share with us so we can

503
00:28:21,036 --> 00:28:23,156
Speaker 1: see the impact of your research in the wild?

504
00:28:23,956 --> 00:28:26,836
Speaker 2: You know, the biggest example I have is a couple

505
00:28:26,876 --> 00:28:28,996
Speaker 2: of years ago, I was talking to a friend and

506
00:28:29,036 --> 00:28:32,476
Speaker 2: she was super super stressed and I literally just asked

507
00:28:32,476 --> 00:28:34,996
Speaker 2: her what do you need? And she said, I need

508
00:28:34,996 --> 00:28:39,556
Speaker 2: somebody to accompany me to walk through of her home

509
00:28:39,716 --> 00:28:42,796
Speaker 2: because she was closing on it the next day. And

510
00:28:42,876 --> 00:28:46,436
Speaker 2: you know that's stressful, Like you're worried, like am I

511
00:28:46,476 --> 00:28:48,796
Speaker 2: getting ripped off? Is the microwave going to work is

512
00:28:48,796 --> 00:28:52,436
Speaker 2: that and just having somebody else with you to help

513
00:28:52,516 --> 00:28:56,316
Speaker 2: out with that is huge. And sometimes you'd think you

514
00:28:56,316 --> 00:28:58,396
Speaker 2: have to do it by yourself and then no one's

515
00:28:58,436 --> 00:29:00,596
Speaker 2: going to have time for you. Yeah, or everyone has

516
00:29:00,636 --> 00:29:04,276
Speaker 2: busy schedules, which they do, but can you at least

517
00:29:04,276 --> 00:29:07,636
Speaker 2: ask first and let someone say no. But more often

518
00:29:07,636 --> 00:29:10,116
Speaker 2: than not, people will make it work because if you've

519
00:29:10,116 --> 00:29:13,796
Speaker 2: cultivated those relationships, they'll move things around their schedule to

520
00:29:13,836 --> 00:29:16,756
Speaker 2: be there for you. And that sticks with me because

521
00:29:16,756 --> 00:29:19,076
Speaker 2: it's something that I also need to remind myself to do.

522
00:29:19,556 --> 00:29:22,196
Speaker 2: Ask myself, what do I need right now? What do

523
00:29:22,276 --> 00:29:26,276
Speaker 2: I need? It's simple. So many of the answers to

524
00:29:26,316 --> 00:29:29,556
Speaker 2: our stress are within us, and we just need to ask,

525
00:29:29,956 --> 00:29:30,716
Speaker 2: just need to ask.

526
00:30:02,076 --> 00:30:05,276
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. On next week's episode,

527
00:30:05,316 --> 00:30:08,796
Speaker 1: we hear from comedian Hassan and haj. In our conversation,

528
00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:11,916
Speaker 1: Usin gets candid about the downsides of his sudden rise

529
00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:15,516
Speaker 1: in popularity and how it's fed an unhealthy obsession with

530
00:30:15,636 --> 00:30:19,356
Speaker 1: being liked. He tells me he's now reconsidering his future

531
00:30:19,356 --> 00:30:20,636
Speaker 1: in comedy.

532
00:30:20,676 --> 00:30:22,716
Speaker 3: Being an artist is who I am. I do have

533
00:30:22,796 --> 00:30:25,796
Speaker 3: this need to express myself, but I have to find

534
00:30:25,836 --> 00:30:30,756
Speaker 3: new mediums as my life continues that are less and

535
00:30:30,876 --> 00:30:33,956
Speaker 3: less and less attached to whether people like me or not.

536
00:30:44,196 --> 00:30:47,156
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive

537
00:30:47,196 --> 00:30:50,836
Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change Family includes

538
00:30:50,876 --> 00:30:54,996
Speaker 1: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan,

539
00:30:55,396 --> 00:31:00,076
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Vastola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae.

540
00:31:00,676 --> 00:31:03,916
Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith

541
00:31:03,996 --> 00:31:07,356
Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is

542
00:31:07,356 --> 00:31:10,796
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there,

543
00:31:11,436 --> 00:31:15,356
Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.

544
00:31:16,236 --> 00:31:18,756
Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram

545
00:31:18,796 --> 00:31:20,076
Speaker 1: at doctor a Mayah Schucker.

546
00:31:41,836 --> 00:31:45,316
Speaker 2: Everything in moderation, That's what this is about.

547
00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:51,756
Speaker 1: Except for Girl Scout cookies, but there's no moderation there. Yes,