1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: From Bloomberg News and iHeartRadio. It's the big take. I'm 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: West Cosova today. It's tax time again. Have you done 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: years yet? Maybe you're just sitting down now to tackle 4 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: that hated dearly chore or paying an accountant, or logging 5 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: into an online service like the most popular one into 6 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: its turbo tax. But no matter if you do it 7 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: way ahead of time or at the very last minute. 8 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: What if you didn't have to file taxes at all? 9 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: The IRS just did it for you for free, told 10 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: you each year how much your refund is or what 11 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: you owe without you having to lift a finger. We 12 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: asked some people in Washington, DC if they'd want the 13 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: ir to do their taxes for them. Probably. Yeah, our 14 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: tax situation is reasonably simple, I would say, quite straightforward. 15 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: So and the thing that can make it a little cheaper, Yeah, 16 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: we'd love to do free taxes provided by the government. Definitely. 17 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: I think I would be in favor of that because 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: I usually use like third party software anyway, and so 19 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: this seems more straightforward, seems like a good option. I 20 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: don't know if I would trust them to manage a 21 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: system like that. It's you know, it's reminiscent of healthcare 22 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: dot gov. Yeah, in a perfect world, sure, but are 23 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: they capable of managing what's on their plate right now? 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: Not quite. This proposal is just what a Biden administration 25 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: and some Democrats want to happen. Congress has approved money 26 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: for the Internal Revenue Service to study if it's possible 27 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: for the government to do people's taxes for them, like 28 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: some other countries already do. Bloomberg reporters Brody Forward, then Steverman, 29 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: and Laura Davison have been covering what that might look 30 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: like Broody. The IRS is conducting the study on the 31 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: possibility of creating its own tax filing service. They would 32 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: be free. Exactly what is that and why are they 33 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,399 Speaker 1: doing it now? The IRS has flirted with creating free 34 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: tax system for a long time, for decades. It's one 35 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: of those weird, uniquely American things. I compare it a 36 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: bit to a healthcare where we know that our system 37 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: is pretty different than other developed countries, maybe doesn't work 38 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: as well, but there's just never quite been the political 39 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: will to change that. So unless you own a business, 40 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: and most developed countries, most wealthy countries, the government essentially 41 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: calculates these things for you. It's not that you have 42 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: to scramble before April and hire an accountant or go 43 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: online and fill out all these things and sweat through 44 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: the night. Essentially, it's kind of done for you the 45 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: same way in some other countries. You don't have to 46 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: pay for healthcare. It's just part of your taxes. And 47 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: so for a long time, good government types, folks at 48 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: the IRS, I've thought, hey, could we do this, but 49 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, ultimately that has not happened. About twenty years ago, 50 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,119 Speaker 1: the IRS entered an agreement with private industry saying, okay, look, 51 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: we won't compete with you, we won't make a system 52 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: that would undercut your profits as long as you make 53 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: your systems available to low and moderate income people. I 54 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: think the agreement was about seventy percent of the population, 55 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: and so that's a significant number that didn't work, that 56 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: didn't happen. Right today under that agreement, I think it's 57 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: only about four percent of people have utilized it. Some 58 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: corporations offer their systems for free by their own accord, 59 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: but it's unregulated. They try to upsell people. And so 60 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: one of the big reasons that right now is a 61 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,119 Speaker 1: moment we're seeing this happen is that some pretty important 62 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: officials have come to the conclusion that the current agreement 63 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: between the IRS and private industry has not worked. The 64 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: other reason this is on the table now is that 65 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: last August Congress past after more than a year of debate, 66 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: the Inflation Reduction Act, so called, which is President Biden's 67 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: signature economic package. There's money for climate in there, but 68 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: there's also money for the IRS almost eighty billion dollars 69 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: to improve customer service, to improve enforcement. But along with that, 70 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren and other progressive kind of shoehardened to that 71 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: very large bill, this study of whether it's viable to 72 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: offer pre tax filing to Americans in some form. Laura, 73 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: is it viable? You've covered the IRS for a long time. 74 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: Is this something that the IRS can do well? There's 75 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: two questions there is can the IRS do it? The 76 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: IRUs has had a lot of technical challenges going forward, 77 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: and that's really part of this eighty billion dollars as 78 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: part of the Inflation Reduction Act is to get the 79 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: agency up to the technical standard it needs to be 80 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: so it is possible, particularly with this new investment. There 81 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: are a lot of examples where government websites. Healthcare dot 82 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 1: gov is sort of the prime example of where is 83 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: the Obamacare website. We all remember it came out it 84 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: was super glitchy. So there's you know, examples of government 85 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: sort of falling down when they have these big initiatives 86 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: that they need to take on. There's a lot of 87 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: optimism both within the IRS and outside the IRS that 88 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: this is something that is possible. The IRS already has 89 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: this information to go ahead and calculate people's taxes for them, 90 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: and that's one of the big frustrations for folks when 91 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: they go and file their taxes. They are trying to 92 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: figure out all their receipts, get all the paperwork they 93 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: need from their bank, from their job, and the IRS 94 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: already has this. For the most part, having the IRS 95 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: tell you what they think you owe is sort of 96 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: the government showing their hand first first and you having 97 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: to guess what they have, and then having the IRS 98 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: come back and say, hey, no, you're wrong. We either 99 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: need more information you or more money, or you know, 100 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: worst case scenario, we're sending an auditor to look through 101 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: all your books. So Brodie described how other countries do 102 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: that is that the way it works is that they're 103 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: just keeping track of the numbers you know, the computers 104 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: already kind of know what you owe and they just 105 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: tell you and you pay it. Yeah, So it's essentially, 106 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: you know, they call it a returnless filing system. Basically, 107 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: you get a form and it says here's what you made, 108 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: here are other income sources you may have, and you 109 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: just click okay, yes or no, and you move on. 110 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: It takes almost no time, whereas in the US the 111 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: average Americans spend somewhere north of ten hours a year 112 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: filling out their tax return. That is a fixable problem 113 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: with money and time. The IRIS can do this. The 114 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: question is can they really get the go ahead from 115 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: Congress and the funding from Congress to do this? And 116 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: so there is the big question, Brodie. You mentioned how 117 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: there was this agreement between the government and these companies 118 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: that you can pay like Turbo Tax and h andr 119 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: Block were familiar with them, but it hasn't happened, and 120 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: why is that. So the goal with the Free File 121 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: Alliance was you gotta remember, I think this was two 122 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: thousand and two, a lot of people were still physically 123 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: mailing their returns to the IRS. That's a disaster. Nobody 124 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: wants that. So part of the goal was to improve 125 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: electronic filing, make it simpler for everyone, and also make 126 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: sure that people who were below a certain income threshold 127 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: could get it for free. And again, the goal was 128 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: there that if you have seventy percent of people who 129 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: are eligible, you know, maybe you don't get all seventy percent, 130 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: but you know, maybe you get fourty fifty percent, you 131 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: get four percent. Is what ended up happening. And that 132 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: has happened because a couple of reasons. Lack of awareness. Right, 133 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people just simply didn't know about this program. 134 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: If you talk to your friends, I mean, I'm a 135 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: browse in college. Not that long ago, nobody made above 136 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: this income threshold. Nobody knew about this. Right, everybody paid 137 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: to do their taxes. And I think that's a pretty 138 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: common story. And regulators would say a big part of 139 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,239 Speaker 1: that is because companies like into It in Turbo Tax 140 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: promoted their paid service, promoted their service that was outside 141 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: of the bounds of the irs. And so the way 142 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: it's supposed to work was, let's say you were eligible 143 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: to use this agreement, it's called the Free File Alliance, 144 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: and you google free tax returns. What was supposed to happen? 145 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: What was supposed to happen is that one of the 146 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: IRS approved contractors essentially would appear and you would go 147 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: to their site and you'd get it for free, and 148 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: there would be protections in terms of data, to be 149 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: protections in terms of cross selling. And that's not what happened. 150 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: They share of folks using that IRS facilitated system essentially 151 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: declined a year over year, and an important element is 152 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: into an H and R block. Actually both pulled out 153 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: of it, so they aren't even part of the alliance anymore. 154 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: A lot of the smaller providers are there, but what taxes. 155 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: A lot of it is about trust, and if you're 156 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: already uncertain about your taxes and you see a site 157 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: you never heard of, you're probably not going to click 158 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: on it. The other aspect of this is that if 159 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: you watch the Super Bowl in the last few years, 160 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: you've probably seen a TurboTax ad, and in previous years 161 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: they would hammer home the idea that it was free, 162 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: So they were marketing themselves their core product as a 163 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: free product, and a lot of people would log on 164 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: to do that, and then they'd end up paying, like 165 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: paying for a state tax return or paying for other services. 166 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 1: The thing too, that's important to remember behind all of 167 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: this is just the fear that goes in for the 168 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: average person as they're trying to file their taxes. You know, 169 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: they don't want to get audited. They don't want to 170 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: forget something. So when you have a service that's saying, hey, 171 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: for you know, twenty five thirty forty extra dollars, will 172 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: you know, make sure that if you get audited, if 173 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: you're selected for audit will will cover that for you. 174 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: If you're already in the system and you need to 175 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: fill out your state tax return, what's another twenty five 176 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: bucks to go ahead and do that. Another thing that's 177 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: important to remember is that some of the services would 178 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: also allow you to pay for the service out of 179 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: your refund, so it feels like less of a hit. 180 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: If okay, I'm getting two thousand dollars back, you know, 181 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: what's one hundred or two hundred of that going to 182 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: the tax service versus having to actually write a check. 183 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: So they made it very easy psychologically for people to say, yeah, 184 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: this is worth paying for and I'm not even really 185 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: feeling to hit directly. It's in the interests of tax 186 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: filing companies who make money off of this to make 187 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: this tax filing time seem like this very complicated thing 188 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: for a lot of people, like maybe seventy million people 189 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: according to one study we looked at, they have pretty 190 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 1: simple taxes, Like I have very simple taxes. You know, 191 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: I have a W two, I've got my income, but 192 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 1: I don't own a house, and so I have a 193 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: retirement account, but that's not part of your taxes, and 194 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: so I have like two or three inputs. Why am 195 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: I paying to file a very simple tax return that 196 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 1: there really isn't any risk of being audited and if 197 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: they'll do audit me, like, I'll have two documents to 198 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: show them. So there's a lot of people in that situation, 199 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: and those people are still anxious, and they really shouldn't be. 200 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: So a lot of this controversy began to come to 201 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: a head in about twenty nineteen. We saw state regulators, 202 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: federal regulators, stand up, comedians, journalists, a lot of people 203 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: coming out of the woodworks to say, wait, a second 204 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: tax filing was meant to be free. There's a company 205 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: making four billion a year off of it. And that's 206 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: a really core piece of the lawsuits by a coalition 207 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 1: of state regulators all fifty rare to see them all 208 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: agree on something as well as the Federal Trade Commission, 209 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: and so the state regulator lawsuit they took them to 210 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: task over this free marketing as well as that thing 211 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 1: of redirecting users from the IRS facilitated system to their system, 212 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: and that ended up settling into It paid one hundred 213 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: and forty one million, and they agreed to a whole 214 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: motley of remedies. They agreed to more government monitoring, they 215 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: agreed to change their advertising practices, and into It says 216 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 1: that they are helping the consumer, that they are helping 217 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: people get the biggest return possible but maybe wouldn't be 218 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: possible without their software. And even in the state regulator lawsuit, 219 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: they admitted no wrongdoing as they accepted the variety of remedies. 220 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: And if you've watched advertisements on YouTube the Super Bowl 221 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: in the last year or two, you've noticed that turbo 222 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: taxes ads don't say free too much. There was an 223 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: advertisement cited by regulators where it was an auctioneer and 224 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: the dude just said free, free, free, free, free brain free, free, 225 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: honey free down bree brain here bury bree bree, and 226 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: then it popped up with about tax logo like that 227 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: was the whole brand positioning right, and that's totally changed now. 228 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: But if you talk to Turbo Tax like I have, 229 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: they say that the change in marketing away from the 230 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: free messaging is totally unrelated to the lawsuits that they 231 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: were going that direction anyway, But no matter how you 232 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: cut it, their marketing has changed in recent years. When 233 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: we're back what this tax filing system might look like 234 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: if it happens, Laura, how much political momentum is there 235 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: in Washington for the IRS to provide the service. Yeah, 236 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: you're starting to see political momentum, particularly from Democrats, about 237 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: the need for this. You mentioned earlier that Senator Elizabeth 238 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: Warren has really been beating the drum was simplified filing. 239 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: They could plug in IRS data, take a look, maybe 240 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: make a tweak if they think there's something that's not 241 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: right there, and then send it in in minutes instead 242 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: of hours. My view on this, it's time to put 243 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: hard working Americans at the center of our tax policy. Simplify, 244 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: make it easier, let them be able to pay their 245 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: taxes and move on with their lives. She's led a 246 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: group of Democratic senators on a bill that's been in 247 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: Congress for several years, it's never really gotten any traction 248 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: on this issue. The reason that the Free File Alliance 249 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: exists is because of this twenty year old truce where 250 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: the IRS and Congress said, Okay, we'll let the companies 251 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: have a stake in this and we won't compete with them, 252 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: and that was the result of lobbying. We're now sort 253 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: of at the end of this pact and Congress season 254 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: opening to go forward here, but I anticipate that we 255 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: will see again lobbying really step up. You look at 256 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: into it nature our block both are big political givers 257 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: and bipartisan. They're giving to both sides no matter who 258 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: is in charge, that they will have friends on both 259 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: sides of the aisle. You look about fifteen twenty years 260 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: ago in California, there was an effort to do this 261 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: at the state level for California state tax returns. So 262 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: there was a pilot program in two thousand and five 263 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: and two thousand and six or they sent out these 264 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: returns already filled out to people and you just basically 265 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: had yes or no and send it back to the 266 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: state tax board. And people loved it. People said that 267 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: they thought it was great, and they said it saved 268 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: them time that it was really really beneficial, I mean 269 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: just kind of across the board, really overwhelmingly positive response. 270 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: It never got a vote in the California State Legislature. 271 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: Brodie Laura mentioned how the industry does allow to lobbying 272 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: tell us about into it specifically, it's the biggest in 273 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: the online tax filing space and it owns TurboTax. Absolutely, 274 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: they punch above their weight when it comes to looking 275 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: at the size of a company versus how much they're 276 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: spending on lobbying. They signed a record last year for 277 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: their lobbying spending, more than any other year before. They 278 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: have a lot of well known faces around DC working 279 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: for them, And what I find interesting about their strategy 280 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: is the way that their arguments appealed to both the 281 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: left and the right. They'll say things that appeal to Republicans, 282 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: such as the IRS is overreaching, the IRS doesn't have 283 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: the capability of doing this, and then they'll say things 284 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: that can appeal to Democrats, talking about how, well, look, 285 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: the IRS is just underfunded and we want to make 286 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: sure that poor people get their returns. You know, this 287 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: won't really benefit the working class. One of the arguments 288 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: from Turbo Tax that it's a conflict of interest for 289 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: the IRS to offer this as a service to tax 290 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: bears that the IRS has a interest in getting the 291 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: most revenue possible. So the idea that you would prepopulate 292 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: returns and suggest how much someone owes proactively would be 293 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: somehow a conflict of interest, and the IRS could be 294 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: playing games with that And do those arguments win on 295 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: Capitol Hill because they're so persuasive or because there's some 296 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: money that goes along with it. You know, we particularly 297 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: look at Republicans and they've had a lot of success 298 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: with anti IRS messaging throughout the midterms. They really campaigned 299 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: on you know, Biden is pumping eighty billion dollars and 300 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: there's going to be an IRS army with armed agents 301 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: on your doorstep demanding that you hand over money. The 302 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: flip side of this is that this is also an 303 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: idea that's very popular with voters. So if people get 304 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: a taste of this, Republicans may struggle more to convince 305 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: people that this is something that they should be fearful of. 306 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: So let's say the RS does move forward with all 307 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: this money in the Biden plan and they try to 308 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: build their own tax filing system. What would that actually 309 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: look like if you went to it, what do you 310 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: imagine you would find there? There's a nonprofit called Code 311 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: for America which just took it upon themselves to make 312 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: a mock up. And it's very simple, right. This is 313 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: it would be a system, at least initially thrills with 314 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: fairly simple taxes. The idea would be that you just 315 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: kind of log in, or's that nice little IRS logo. 316 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: You know it's official, and it says here's what you owe, 317 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: put in your dependence, put in which tax credits you're 318 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: going to claim. And their idea was to make it 319 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: mobile first, with the thought that a lot more people 320 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: don't have access to computers than I think a lot 321 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: of us realize, right, especially those who maybe aren't currently 322 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: being served by our tax systems. So the idea is 323 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: that it would be as simple as possible, because again, 324 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: if the government is already supplying this information, you wouldn't 325 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: need it to be some advanced piece of software. One 326 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: of the other interesting ideas that's being discussed at the 327 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: IRS now is they're actually in the midst of building 328 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: a much better customer service interface digitally. I'm not saying 329 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: that they're building the actual tax filing part of it. 330 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: But you can imagine like you could in theory log 331 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: into an account, let's say you were being honored it 332 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: like it would be nice to be able to see, Okay, 333 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: did the IRIS get the response that I sent them? 334 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: Has that been uploaded yet? How do I upload it? 335 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: What else do they need from me? The sort of 336 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: basic stuff that you have in other customer survey settings 337 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: when you're dealing with like a bank or just have 338 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: an account at a company. The IRS is like decades 339 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: behind on that stuff, So that is the basic infrastructure 340 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: they're building now, and you can sort of imagine that 341 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: tax filing could be kind of bolted onto that potentially. 342 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 1: During COVID, the IRS actually really got a great sort 343 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: of trial by fire experiment in dealing with all of 344 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: the distribution of the three rounds of stimulus checks. So 345 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: they have started to build some of these systems during 346 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: the pandemic to give people a sense of updating of 347 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: when is your money coming, how can you expect to 348 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: receive it, that sort of thing. They've had some small 349 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: case studies to see what are the functionalities that people want, 350 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: what should the system look like, and how do we 351 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: manage sort of that direct communication with what would essentially 352 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: be you know, customers or taxpayers. So that's one way 353 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: that maybe they've sort of built up some of their muscles. 354 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: But I think a lot of people would probably look 355 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: at the argument that the IRS could build a website 356 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: that would be able to do tens of millions of 357 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: people's taxes and do it right and do it on time, 358 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: and sort of like, yeah, good luck, fellas, because we 359 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: know how the government works and it's not always that great. 360 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: Do you think the IRS has the capability to build 361 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: this thing even with all that money. The flip side 362 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: to the stimulus check argument is that there were a 363 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: lot of mistakes and a lot of people got missed 364 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: and a lot of people didn't have the money go 365 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: to them. And one thing too, that's just kind of 366 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: important to remember of sort of what stage we are 367 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: in the process is the IRS got eighty billion dollars 368 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: partially for tech but also for customer service and for 369 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: expanding their enforcement operations fifteen million with an m SO 370 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: of eighty fifteen million is to do this study to 371 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: figure out if this is feasible. So they are really, 372 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: you know, just at the starting line of developing something 373 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: like this. So that's a good point because the study 374 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: they have to issue a report in May of this year. 375 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: Let's say they come up with a really great plan. 376 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: How soon after that do you think this could actually 377 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: be up in running. Okay, that silence tells us everything 378 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: we need to do. The thing is that they're going 379 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: to need to go back to Congress for more money 380 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: for some of this likely. I'm just looking at the 381 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: size and scope of what this project could be. And 382 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: as people who are watching Washington may remember, this summer 383 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: is going to be a big fight over the debt 384 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: ceiling and government funding. And Republicans control the House now, 385 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: so this is almost certainly going to get locked into 386 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: some politics and some fights over funding about how this 387 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: moves forward and could be a p football. You know, 388 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: as these debates continue after the break, all the obstacles 389 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: that could get in the way of the irs. Brody, 390 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: you write that Wall Street analysts think that the chances 391 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: of the government building this system are so remote that 392 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: they don't even factor it into their models. Yeah, so 393 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: companies under risk of losing their revenue in the future, 394 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: they lose a little bit off their stock price. You know, 395 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: if you have a company that's big oil is a 396 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: great example. Right, everybody knows that that's going to go away, 397 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: maybe not as soon as some people hope, but it's 398 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: going to go away, right, And so they lose some 399 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,479 Speaker 1: valuation on that. The same thing if a company might 400 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: get regulated out of existence, they lose valuation into it, 401 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: does not lose valuation for risk of the IRS. I 402 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: went down the list and called like ten different analysts. 403 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: A lot of them kind of laughed at me. They're saying, 404 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: you know, one, the IRS is underfunded, it's not going 405 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 1: to be able to do it. But the consensus over 406 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: there is absolutely that Into it will be fine. That 407 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: even if the IRS goes ahead and successfully builds this, 408 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: it's not going to pull away many people. And maybe 409 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: the people that pulls away weren't really a profit center anyway. 410 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: I wonder though, if some of these analysts are being 411 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: a little too confident and a little too cocky because 412 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: Wall Street the stock market for these companies, it's all 413 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: about growth and if an IRS product can cut into 414 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: some of the growth. And also remember this is a 415 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: market where there really isn't any competition. More than ninety 416 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: percent of the revenue in this segment is going to 417 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: one company in terms of online filing at least, so 418 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: if you have a competitor, you might have to cut 419 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: your prices to bring people back. Something to clarify is 420 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: that when we talk about the online market and really 421 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: the group of people we're talking about in general today, 422 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: is that fifty per centers so of people who don't 423 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: own a ton of assets, who don't have the most 424 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: complicated situation in the world, because these are the people 425 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: that are using services like turbot tax, because you know, 426 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, if you own five houses, 427 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: you're going to an accountant. You aren't in the turbot 428 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: tax pool of users. Anyways, Laura, you mentioned that we're 429 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: about to enter in a summer of fighting over or 430 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: spending in Washington. Republicans really love the idea of raiding 431 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: all that money for the irs. Do you think there's 432 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: a chance that that money just becomes a casualty of 433 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: this fight and this whole thing that we're talking about 434 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: here gets shelved for another day. So Republicans made their 435 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: first vote when they took over the House to be 436 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: repealing this funding. So this is a big symbolic issue 437 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: for them. It is unlikely given that Biden as president 438 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: and Democrats control the Senate, that that entire eighty billion 439 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: pot goes away. You could see that this becomes a 440 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: flashpoint that Republicans and Democrats are both arguing over of 441 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, are there additional restrictions put on this money? 442 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: Are there certain bits of it that are that are 443 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: held back or have other ways that make it less 444 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: effective and give the irs less flexibility to move forward 445 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: on this. This money isn't going away. Democrats are not 446 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: going to concede that this was such a big political 447 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: win for them to get this, but it does make 448 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: it harder for the irs if they are hamstrung in 449 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: some way, shape or form, or you know. Of course, 450 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: in a couple of years, if Republicans do take over, 451 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: this money does become at risk. It's always an unfair 452 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: thing to do to ask anyone to predict the future. 453 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: So that's exactly what I'm gonna do. Brodie. If you 454 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: look five years from now, do you think people are 455 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: going to be filing their taxes for free online? I 456 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: can see a reality where a fairly limited group of 457 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: people are. I think betting against movement in Congress is 458 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: usually a winning one. I don't want to sound like 459 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: all the Wall Street analysts here, but they have pretty 460 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: convincing arguments. I think the tone most people left me 461 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: on is while they wouldn't use the word likely at 462 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: this point, they would say it's the best chance we've 463 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: had in two decades, and I think that's a fair assessment. Ben, 464 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: what do you think. Yeah, I think it is the 465 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: best chance that government provided free filing has had ever. 466 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 1: But there are huge logistical challenges. There is a lot 467 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 1: that the IRS is planning to do over the next 468 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: few years. It's really impossible to imagine that some point 469 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: in the twenty first century the IRS won't be able 470 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: to build this because it is a pretty simple off 471 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: the rack thing. Eventually, there's going to be someone that's 472 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: going to be able to push this through, and you 473 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: would presumably think that it will be used by a 474 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: certain number of people who will then become constituents and 475 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: voters and would want it to continue. Laura, what do 476 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: you think. I'm more optimistic than less. I will not 477 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: commit to that five year timeline, but I do think 478 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: that this is an inevitability, and probably sooner rather than later, 479 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: there will just become particular for politicians who have to 480 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: answer for why are you against making it simple for 481 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: your constituents to file taxes? That's going to become a 482 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: losing argument at some point. Laura bang Brodie, thanks so 483 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: much for coming on the show. Thank you, thanks, thanks, 484 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: thanks for listening to us. Here The Big Take. It's 485 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows 486 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, 487 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. 488 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg 489 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is 490 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: Vicky Bergolina. Our senior producer is Katherine Fink. Our producers 491 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: are Michael Fallero and Mo Barrow. Hilda Garcia is our engineer. 492 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: Our original music was composed by Leo Sidrin. I'm Westkasova. 493 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.