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Speaker 1: Each And is one quote global rule don't post, request

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Speaker 1: or link to any content that is illegal in the

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Speaker 1: United States, but that hasn't stopped the creation and spread

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Speaker 1: of dangerous content. It has been connected to this circulation

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Speaker 1: of child porn. Um. It is a place where people

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Speaker 1: are routinely docked UM for you know, going against something

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Speaker 1: that the people on each and believe in. UM it

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Speaker 1: has you know, white supremacist memes and views are not

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Speaker 1: uncommon there. UM. It's sort of a free for all

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Speaker 1: of all of the worst things that can possibly happen

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Speaker 1: online in like one board Wow, all of the worst

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Speaker 1: things that can happen online on one board eight chan.

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Speaker 1: I spent a fair amount of time on their reading

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Speaker 1: stuff yesterday as I became aware of its role in

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Speaker 1: so many things in society, including the shooting on Saturday

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Speaker 1: in which the stupid, lazy, coward, murderous scumbag idiot posted

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Speaker 1: his manifesto on there right before he went and shot

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Speaker 1: all those people. Drew Harwell is a technical porter covering

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Speaker 1: artificial intelligence and other issues for The Washington Post and

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Speaker 1: certainly no stranger to the Web and it's dark corners.

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Speaker 1: Drew joins us now, Hello, Drew how are you, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm okay, how are you other than sickened and troubled

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Speaker 1: like the rest of us? So listen, we got a

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Speaker 1: little intro on what h chan is, but I think

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Speaker 1: it's worth repeating that if it were shut down today,

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Speaker 1: something would replace it tomorrow. What goes on in these

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Speaker 1: corners of the web? I mean, imagine like one of

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Speaker 1: the worst parts of the Internet, with all of the

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Speaker 1: most vile sort of content and means to guess every

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Speaker 1: flavor of racism, sexism, anti sematism, anti everything. It all

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Speaker 1: has a refuge in h chan um. H chan is

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Speaker 1: an anonymous message board. No one gives their name, and

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Speaker 1: everything is um open to discuss, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: it's become sort of a drain pipe really for everything

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Speaker 1: that anyone wants to talk about online. So you end

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Speaker 1: up seeing I mean, this year we have seen three

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Speaker 1: mess shootings, including christ Church and el Pass on Saturday,

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Speaker 1: that began with gunmen going onto the board and posting

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Speaker 1: their hateful spreed manifestos on a chan, knowing that that's

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Speaker 1: a place where they could post it and then would

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Speaker 1: it be deleted. They knew they would be celebrated and

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Speaker 1: have a welcome audience and in the a chan for

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Speaker 1: those administrators have allowed that. So they've been sort of,

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Speaker 1: you know, more than even complicit. They've been providing the

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Speaker 1: support for for that kind of online hate. I was

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Speaker 1: gonna ask that, So, yeah, these forms you have to

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Speaker 1: have an administrator just to keep the thing working. Do

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Speaker 1: they not? Are they in agreement with all these people?

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Speaker 1: Do they just not care? They're making add revenue off

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Speaker 1: of this? How does that work? A chan is its

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Speaker 1: own sistem, really, I mean, it's a it's the pet

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Speaker 1: project of is of its owners, and it's it's not

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Speaker 1: connected to a lot of the tech companies that would

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Speaker 1: traditionally exert this kind of pressure. They don't sell ads,

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Speaker 1: they don't depend on Facebook, and so they get to

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Speaker 1: operate pretty much as their own little cloistered you know,

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Speaker 1: hermit kingdom um, and so you know, they can get

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Speaker 1: some pressure from the few companies they work with, but

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Speaker 1: they're they're allowed to sort of set their own rules

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Speaker 1: and that creates, you know, the environment that we've seen

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Speaker 1: this weekend. And would it be fair to say that

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Speaker 1: there's nothing unique about a chan. They couldn't be replaced tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: It is where angry, hateful, people know they can express

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Speaker 1: their anger and hate and be reinforced. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: I mean people know that they can express those thews.

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Speaker 1: And also people end up going there because you know,

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Speaker 1: they they're they're turned on by something else, and then

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Speaker 1: they get further radicalized they see the memes and and

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Speaker 1: that's a big part of the h Chan sort of

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Speaker 1: ethos two is is turning normalies, turning mainstream normal people

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Speaker 1: onto their hateful cause. Whether it's you know, the views

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Speaker 1: expressed from the El Paso shooter and that there was

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Speaker 1: you know, this quote unquote Hispanic invasion, which is ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: or you know, any other sort of neo nazi sort

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Speaker 1: of hate hates these It all has a funny chain

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Speaker 1: and its self sort of celebrated desert. Is there a

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Speaker 1: way for the FBI to see somebody that guy's clearly,

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Speaker 1: you know, is a white supremacist or on the verge

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Is there a way for them to figure

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Speaker 1: out who made a posting and keep an eyeem or

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Speaker 1: is that impossible? It's pretty much impossible. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: this site has baked anonymity into its d n A

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Speaker 1: so much that every post is just given a new number.

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Speaker 1: Every time somebody, but there's no user profiles. That's that's

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Speaker 1: part of how everybody talks with each other, and they

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Speaker 1: refer to each other as a non anonymous people. UM.

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Speaker 1: But you know, the The Eye has filed search warrants

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Speaker 1: for HN. They they've sought to seek out more information,

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Speaker 1: including after the synagogue shooting in Poe Upside, San Diego

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Speaker 1: that was also tied to H and they have clearly

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Speaker 1: seen this as a place where, um, a lot of

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Speaker 1: this extremist craft happens, and you know, terror and extremist

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Speaker 1: experts have sort of said, HN really doesn't look that

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Speaker 1: differently than a lot of the Islamic State UM Alcada

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Speaker 1: sites that we were talking about after eleven. It's the

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Speaker 1: same exact playbook. So so they do watch, but you know,

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Speaker 1: they're they're they're limited in what they can do, and

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Speaker 1: that's part of why people end up going to HN

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Speaker 1: over anywhere else. Drew Harwell covers tech for the wa PO. Drew,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you pointing that out and for just directly

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Speaker 1: to our listeners who may be tuning in for the

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Speaker 1: first time this morning. We've been talking for hours about

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Speaker 1: the fact that those obsessing with a particular ideology are

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Speaker 1: missing the fun to mental question about all these shootings

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Speaker 1: that it is almost exclusively young men in the case

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Speaker 1: of Las Vegas, an older guy, but people wanting to

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Speaker 1: express their anger and their hatred, and they may latch

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Speaker 1: onto an ideology and be encouraged in that direction by

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Speaker 1: fellow lunatics. But you know, Las Vegas, Parkland, Columbine. I

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Speaker 1: could give you a dozen more examples if you'd like,

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Speaker 1: people who are either seem to be politically left or

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Speaker 1: completely a political I am absolutely against getting a handle

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Speaker 1: on extremist ideologies that motivate people to kill. But that's

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Speaker 1: not the fundamental question. That's what we've been talking about

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Speaker 1: all day today. And Drew, you can comment on that

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Speaker 1: if you want. We didn't have you on to talk

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Speaker 1: about that. But um, I think if we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: serious as a society, we really need to figure out

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Speaker 1: what is the right question before we find the right answer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. I think, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: is just one sort of symptom of of the root problem.

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Speaker 1: But you see it there as sort of a micro constant.

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Speaker 1: And with a lot of these shootings are there is

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Speaker 1: sort of a white supremacist background. There's this extremist belief

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Speaker 1: in anti everything, but this you know, sort of perfect race.

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Speaker 1: And you know, there is also a lot of support

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Speaker 1: for Trump. And you know this this gets into one

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Speaker 1: of the struggles with with Han, which is that domestic

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Speaker 1: terror in this country is treated differently than the international

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Speaker 1: terror and part of that reservation and this is what

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Speaker 1: sources tell our our folks who cover the FBI, is

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Speaker 1: that there's um, you know, reluctance to pursue some of

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Speaker 1: these white supremacists because they can end up blending with

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Speaker 1: parts of President Trump space. And it becomes a real

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Speaker 1: political um struggle to know where do we draw the

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Speaker 1: line where does it get too hateful? And um, you know,

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Speaker 1: Chan has celebrated being right in that in that danger zone.

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Speaker 1: They they they encourage people to follow into that. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's a really interesting point. I think it

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Speaker 1: completely misses my point. Um. And the minute you turn

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Speaker 1: this about Trump or people who just have adamant political beliefs, again,

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Speaker 1: we are distracted from the real question, why are angry

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Speaker 1: young men using mass murder as a coping mechanism? Let

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Speaker 1: me turn that is the question. Let me turn back

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Speaker 1: to the tech question with Drew Harwell and Washington Posts.

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Speaker 1: So is there is this just a uh something that

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Speaker 1: comes along with having the Internet, which I assume is

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Speaker 1: not going to go away, the ability for people to

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Speaker 1: get together on websites and have these kind of conversations

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Speaker 1: about whatever it is that they're into, or is there

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Speaker 1: anything that that could will some day lead to ending

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Speaker 1: this or is this just come with having an internet? Uh?

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Speaker 1: You know, I think it just comes with having an Internet.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, this is like we're talking about earlier.

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Speaker 1: I think this is a place that people go when

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Speaker 1: they don't have anything else, right, I Mean it's really

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Speaker 1: impossible to know who goes on HM because they're anonymous,

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Speaker 1: but from the people who observe it, it's, you know,

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Speaker 1: people who feel totally alienated by society. There's even a

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Speaker 1: term in HN where they call themselves meat and E

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Speaker 1: E T s. Whether they're not employed, they're not educated,

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Speaker 1: they're not in training, they're just sort of existing and

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Speaker 1: and they're seeking a form of belonging. H N offers

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Speaker 1: that belonging. It also offers this horrible radical ideology. But

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Speaker 1: if you don't have anything else, that's going to seem

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Speaker 1: more attractive I'm sorry, Drew. We're about out of time

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Speaker 1: and that is just a brilliant way to end the

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Speaker 1: chat if you don't mind. It's always stimulating, Drew. We

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Speaker 1: appreciate your time very much. Great, thanks for Talking's meat,

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Speaker 1: not educated, not employed, not employed, not training. Yeah. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting. It's about connectedness, the lack of positive connectedness

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Speaker 1: and the presence of the most awful sort of connectedness.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you God and there means each other on

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Speaker 1: that side. I spent time on there. They're just they

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Speaker 1: just eat everything terrible. It's something else. Armstrong and Getty