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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the whitetail woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile

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Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light

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Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your.

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Speaker 2: Host, Mark Kenyon, Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast.

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Speaker 2: This week on the show, I am joined by Clay

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Speaker 2: Newcombe to discuss the long hunters of the eighteenth century,

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Speaker 2: such as Daniel Boone and what we modern day deer

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Speaker 2: hunters can learn from them. All right, welcome to the

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Speaker 2: Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light

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Speaker 2: in their Camo for Conservation initiative. I think you know

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Speaker 2: this by now, but if not, a portion of every

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Speaker 2: sale of First Light's whitetail cameo pattern it's called Specter

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Speaker 2: portion of every sale of that stuff goes to the

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Speaker 2: National Deer Association to help them do good things for deer,

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Speaker 2: deer hunters, deer habitat. I love it, so thank you

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Speaker 2: First Light. And with that said, today's podcast is a

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Speaker 2: good one. We are looking back in history. We're going

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Speaker 2: to look at our predecessors, the deer hunters that in

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Speaker 2: many ways established a foundation for white tailed deer hunting culture.

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Speaker 2: In America. We're talking on the buddy Clay Newcombe. He

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Speaker 2: recently had a collaboration with Steve Vanella released a new

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Speaker 2: Meat Eater audiobook called The Long Hunters seventeen sixty one

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Speaker 2: through seventeen seventy five. This book, this audiobook is what

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Speaker 2: it is. It details the story of folks like Daniel

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Speaker 2: Boone and how these folks traveled across the first Far West,

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Speaker 2: the first Frontier and developed a livelihood off of hunting

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Speaker 2: for whitetail deer. And so today I want to bring

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Speaker 2: Clay on to talk about that history, toalk a little

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Speaker 2: bit about Boone and the other guys like him that

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Speaker 2: I think we have now romanticized and developed a set

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Speaker 2: of mythologies around these first wilderness hunters that so many

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Speaker 2: of us like to dream about and imagine living their lives.

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Speaker 2: What can we learn from these guys? What can we

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Speaker 2: learn from their hunting exploits. What can someone like Daniel

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Speaker 2: Boone teach us about deer hunting? Also, what can they

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Speaker 2: teach us about how to better enjoy the experience and

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Speaker 2: adventure of hunting? And not only that, what can we

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Speaker 2: learn from these guys and the mistakes that they might

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Speaker 2: have made when it came to overexploiting a resource over

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Speaker 2: exploiting a population of wildlife. There's a lot here to unpack.

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Speaker 2: It's a great audiobook that Clay and Steve just released.

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Speaker 2: I hope you'll check it out. Like I said, it's

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Speaker 2: called The Long Hunters seventeen sixty one through seventeen seventy five.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about that and a whole bunch

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Speaker 2: more here on the show with my buddy Clay. I

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Speaker 2: want to give you two quick ups. Number one, we

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Speaker 2: do still have some of our new Wired to Hunt

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Speaker 2: hats over on the med Eater's store. Not wearing one

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Speaker 2: right now, but I showed you guys a couple weeks ago.

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Speaker 2: It's got that really cool white tail illustration on the

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Speaker 2: front says wired to Hunt on the side of the crown,

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Speaker 2: and they're in like a charcoal gray or tan color

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Speaker 2: right now. So going over to the meat Eater's store

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Speaker 2: if you've been wanting one of those, And while you're there,

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Speaker 2: I just saw we do still have a few copies

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Speaker 2: of my book That Wild Country and Epic Journey through

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Speaker 2: the past, present and future of America's public lands, and

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Speaker 2: we've got a few more signed copies of that book

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Speaker 2: available on the store as well, So if you're interested

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Speaker 2: in either of those, you can go to the meat

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Speaker 2: Eater dot com. And if you are not interested in

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Speaker 2: those things, or if you've already got a couple of

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Speaker 2: your own, then just tune in for the rest of

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Speaker 2: my conversation with mister Clay Nukem. All right here with

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Speaker 2: me now is my pal and the one and only

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Speaker 2: mister Clay Nukem. Welcome back to the show. Bude, Hey, Mark,

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Speaker 2: great to be here, man, man, I appreciate you getting

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Speaker 2: up early to do this. I know it's a cold

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Speaker 2: beginning of the day, so thank you.

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Speaker 3: Negative six is about as cold as it gets around here.

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Speaker 3: That's what it is right now.

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Speaker 2: How do arc what do you guys call yourselves? Arkansas? Kansas?

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Speaker 2: That's it. How do our Kansans handle this contemperature?

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Speaker 3: Shut down everything possible and just hunker downy I love it, man.

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Speaker 2: So you're in hibernation mode.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, A lot of the schools have been canceled and

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Speaker 3: even business is closed. But we have we have snow too,

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Speaker 3: and so the you know, we just don't have the

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Speaker 3: infrastructure for snow removal, like a lot of the northern

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Speaker 3: States where you get this kind of stuff all the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you hear these You hear these nightmare stories about

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Speaker 2: like what happens in Texas when they get a little

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Speaker 2: bit of sleep. Is it kind of like that? It really? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah it is.

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Speaker 3: In northwest Arkansas, we're a little bit more used to it,

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Speaker 3: maybe have a little bit more infrastructure. We get snow

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Speaker 3: every year, but not usually extended periods of snow. But uh,

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Speaker 3: I think I think the most unique thing about this

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Speaker 3: is just the temperature, just like very cold temperatures for here.

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Speaker 2: Which is good.

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Speaker 3: I was talking to a farmer the other day and

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Speaker 3: he said, it keeps the keeps everything honest by getting

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Speaker 3: this cold, you know, with warming trends and everything keeps

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Speaker 3: the fire ants out, and that's true, keeps the keeps

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Speaker 3: the riff raff invasives out well.

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Speaker 2: And like we were talking about before we started recording,

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Speaker 2: it's it's kind of nice just to feel those extremes

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Speaker 2: every once in a while and just remember, like, all right,

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Speaker 2: nature is a force. There's something a little bit stronger

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Speaker 2: than us out there and going outside. I was just

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Speaker 2: telling you, I went for run the other day and

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Speaker 2: this stuff and it was like negative twenty five wind chill,

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Speaker 2: and you just have to kind of think, all right,

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Speaker 2: do I have the right clothes on? Am I? How

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Speaker 2: long can I be out there without this getting gnarly?

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Speaker 2: You know, just that kind of little bit of humbling

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Speaker 2: of you in the face of nature.

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Speaker 3: I like, so oh it makes me think of you

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Speaker 3: know what we're about to talk about, the Long Hunters,

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Speaker 3: and even going back to just our human ancestors that

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Speaker 3: really had to take all this stuff in the face.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's mind boggling to me that people could

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Speaker 3: survive without the modern technologies we have.

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Speaker 2: That truly is Yeah, that's so true. So you perfect

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Speaker 2: segue to what I wanted to pull you on here

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Speaker 2: today to talk about, which is this new book that

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Speaker 2: you collaborated on with mister Steven Ranella, The Long Hunters.

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Speaker 2: But before we get into the book itself, you kinda

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Speaker 2: wrapped up a pseudo long hunt maybe you wouldn't call

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Speaker 2: it that, but a long ish hunt yourself going down

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Speaker 2: the Mississippi River. How long were you guys doing that

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Speaker 2: adventure for?

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Speaker 3: So we set out from Memphis on January the third,

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Speaker 3: and we rode two hundred and fifty miles down the

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Speaker 3: Mississippi River to south of Greenville and hunted and we

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Speaker 3: stayed in the same place for a week. Originally, the

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Speaker 3: idea for the film was that we were going to

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Speaker 3: stop multiple places and hunt here and hunt there, and

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Speaker 3: and we had to reschedule the trip one time because

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Speaker 3: of illness of a crew member, and when we put

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Speaker 3: the hunt back together for the second time, we pretty

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Speaker 3: much just had one place we could hunt. So we

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Speaker 3: rode two hundred and fifty miles down the river to

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Speaker 3: our camp, which was a big modern camp, I mean

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Speaker 3: a nice camp.

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Speaker 2: And no.

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Speaker 3: We did a podcast series back in the summer on

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Speaker 3: the Mississippi River, a four part series, and it was

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Speaker 3: fascinating to me. It was it was I didn't know

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Speaker 3: a lot about the Mississippi really, and honestly, a lot

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Speaker 3: of people don't. I mean even people that live on

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Speaker 3: the banks of it don't. I find most of them

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Speaker 3: don't really know the deeper history of the river. And

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Speaker 3: I set out a year ago to about two years ago, like, man,

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Speaker 3: I need to know about this river. And we did

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Speaker 3: this big research project and podcast and when I did that,

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Speaker 3: I said, I want to go down the Mississippi and

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Speaker 3: kind of the sweet spot for Mississippi wilderness quote unquote

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Speaker 3: is from Memphis to Vicksburg. And I mean truly, aside

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Speaker 3: from river improvements by the Core Channel improvements by the

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Speaker 3: corp of Engineers, the river is not that much different

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Speaker 3: than it would have been visually from what Mark Twain

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Speaker 3: and what Davy Crockett and what all these, you know,

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Speaker 3: like every American hero of old times went down and saw,

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Speaker 3: I mean, the river's pretty wild, and so it was

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Speaker 3: a really unique, unique had some great deer hunting. Mark

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Speaker 3: Holey cow that part of Mississippi's is probably it's got

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Speaker 3: to be some of my favorite deer hunting of all time.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't. This is the famed Delta deer hunting

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Speaker 2: down there, right, We.

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Speaker 4: Got to yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, so we hunted the first week of January basically,

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Speaker 3: and it was it would have been akin to hunting

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Speaker 3: the last week of November. The rut is really December,

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Speaker 3: mid December through mid January. So I mean we were

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Speaker 3: absolutely seeing bucks chasing bucks locked down with those bucks cruising.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it was really neat and they saw Brenton

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Speaker 3: got a good one. He did, he did, he he

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Speaker 3: killed an ice. You know, we didn't score it, but

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Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty to one hundred and thirty five

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Speaker 3: minutes for sure.

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Speaker 4: And I was bow hunting.

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Speaker 3: If if I'd carried a rifle, which it was legal

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Speaker 3: to carry, I would have killed a real nice buck

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Speaker 3: the first first day I was there. Wow, But the

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Speaker 3: but I was, I loved to bow hunt there. I

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Speaker 3: killed two dos and had the time of my life

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Speaker 3: doing it.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's great. So you spend all this time researching,

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Speaker 2: doing the podcast series, learning about the Mississippi River and

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Speaker 2: the history of that place, and then you got to

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Speaker 2: float down the river and see it all. What was

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Speaker 2: that like like when you go down two hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty miles down the river through this as close to

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Speaker 2: wilderness as you can get at Corridor were the whole

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Speaker 2: time are you are you able to be in the

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Speaker 2: present or the whole time when you're going on that journey?

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Speaker 2: Are you thinking about this thing you learned about and

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Speaker 2: that thing you learned about and all that?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 2: What does that look like for you after getting that context?

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Speaker 4: It was both things.

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Speaker 3: The primary thing, though, and I think the thing that

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Speaker 3: I was after was to just to kind of confront

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Speaker 3: and experience the River, and when you're on the Mississippi River,

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Speaker 3: the primary thing on your mind is being safe. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's a big, wooly river, and all you hear people

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Speaker 3: talk about that are on it a lot is how

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Speaker 3: dangerous it is and how you just have to be

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Speaker 3: on your toes all the time. I am not an

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Speaker 3: experienced riverman. Brent Reeves is Brent spent twenty six years

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Speaker 3: as a duck guide, partly on the Arkansas River, so

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Speaker 3: he was used to navigating big rivers. He's the only

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Speaker 3: reason that I was confident in taking on the trip.

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Speaker 3: But that being said, I drove the boat probably two

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Speaker 3: hundred of the two hundred and fifty miles. Barge traffic

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Speaker 3: is a big problem.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's.

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Speaker 3: The biggest challenge, probably because you have these huge, I

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Speaker 3: mean just unbelievably big barges pushing as many as eighty

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Speaker 3: eighty containers down the river create huge wakes. But also

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Speaker 3: you have to stay inside the channel, which is which

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Speaker 3: is marked. But uh So, to answer your question, I

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Speaker 3: think I probably was dealing with the same things that

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Speaker 3: anyone would have at any time. You know, there's a

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Speaker 3: Mark Twain wrote a famous book called The Mississippi river.

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Speaker 3: And and you know, he was a cub pilot, meaning

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Speaker 3: he was second in command of a steamboat going up

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Speaker 3: and down the river for several years. And he has

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Speaker 3: he devoted well I've heard it said in some of

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Speaker 3: America's Greatest pros, but he devoted several chapters to talking

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Speaker 3: about navigating the Mississippi River. And it's just fascinating all

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Speaker 3: the things. And what he had to do was vastly

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Speaker 3: more difficult than what we had to do because of

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Speaker 3: modern technology. So I think I was confronting a fear,

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Speaker 3: you know, overcoming inside of riding down that river.

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Speaker 2: Truly was.

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Speaker 3: But also I was thinking about Davy Crockett was about

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Speaker 3: right here when he crashed a boat just south of Memphis.

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Speaker 3: I was thinking about the flood, the flood pulse.

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Speaker 2: Of the river.

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Speaker 3: Which that's what makes the Mississippi River so unique among

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Speaker 3: rivers in the world is that we have a thousand

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Speaker 3: mile stretch of this category of river in size that

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Speaker 3: there are no dams, which the only river that has

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Speaker 3: that long of a stretch damless stretches the Amazon. All

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Speaker 3: the other big rivers of the world have been dammed,

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Speaker 3: So that creates a natural flood pulse because of the levees,

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Speaker 3: which the eleven hundred miles of levees on the Mississippi

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Speaker 3: River is the greatest civil engineering feet really arguably in

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Speaker 3: American history. And because of those levees, the flood pulse

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Speaker 3: of the river is natural, like it allows the water

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Speaker 3: to rise and that creates an incredible fishery. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I just could nerd out on it and just loved it.

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Speaker 3: But I'm a terrestrial man, like I'm I'm from the mountains.

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Speaker 3: I'm least comfortable on water, and that's kind of why

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Speaker 3: I wanted to do it. And man, it was no

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Speaker 3: joke doing it in the winter.

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Speaker 2: Holy cow.

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Speaker 3: Originally we were doing it in November and then that

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Speaker 3: part of the world November it's pretty mild, river would

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Speaker 3: be low, temperatures would be you know, probably even getting

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Speaker 3: into the sixties and seventies. We did it in January.

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Speaker 3: It was cold and it rained and it was a

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Speaker 3: lot of fun. Much we did what you.

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Speaker 2: Kind of did here, studying up, researching, exploring the history

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Speaker 2: of the Mississippi and then going and experiencing it. Is

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Speaker 2: kind of analogous to what you've got here with the

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Speaker 2: Long Hunter book, in which someone can read that, listen

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Speaker 2: to this book, experience the history, and then go out

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Speaker 2: in deer hunt themselves. And I'm wondering if in learning

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Speaker 2: the history of our white tail hunting predecessors, if that

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Speaker 2: in some way changes our experience or can change our

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Speaker 2: experience now today as modern day whitetail hunters. That's a

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Speaker 2: question I have. Do you think that is something that happens? Like,

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Speaker 2: how does a historical perspective change our present day experience?

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Speaker 2: Why is this kind of historical perspective maybe important?

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Speaker 3: You nailed it, Mark, when this book was being researched,

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Speaker 3: as the details of what we talked about just kind

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Speaker 3: of unfolded, man, I was like, this book is foundational

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Speaker 3: to every American deer hunter, and you wouldn't think it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you wouldn't think the guy down the road

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Speaker 3: that deer hunts one weekend the year, and.

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Speaker 4: You know, why would this be relevant to him?

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Speaker 3: How would this be relevant to to some of the.

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Speaker 4: Guys that we know that our.

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Speaker 3: Highly managing land for killing five plus your old white

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Speaker 3: tails with big antlers, every piece of every single piece

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Speaker 3: of the whitetail world that we love today, you can

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Speaker 3: trace back to parts of this story of the American

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Speaker 3: deer skin trade. You know, if an alien came from

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Speaker 3: another planet and showed up on Earth and he saw

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Speaker 3: Mark Kenyon pass up a whatever kind of deer and

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Speaker 3: shoot this other deer with bigger antlers and be thrilled

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Speaker 3: about it, the alien would be like, what, why didn't

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Speaker 3: he just shoot the one that came by first, so

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Speaker 3: he didn't have to sit there for that long. He's

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Speaker 3: after the meat, he's after the hide, he's after you know,

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Speaker 3: his horns literally do nothing. You know that that assignment

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Speaker 3: of cultural value goes goes back deep in history, and

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Speaker 3: that doesn't necessarily go to the deer skin trade, but

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Speaker 3: it spans it.

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Speaker 4: That was a step after the deer skin trade.

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Speaker 3: You know that the deer were initially sought after for

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Speaker 3: their hides because of a global demand. And we talk

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Speaker 3: extensively about that in the book. Where did this demand

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Speaker 3: come from? Who was using deer skins?

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Speaker 4: And so there was this value on the deer.

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Speaker 3: And then later as sport hunting arose, that that value,

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Speaker 3: that legacy of the long hunters, translated into people trying

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Speaker 3: to kill big bucks. You know, we were no longer

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Speaker 3: trying to kill three hundred and fifty deer a year

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Speaker 3: or five hundred deer a year, and it kind of

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Speaker 3: morphed into this this sport hunting where we would culturally

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Speaker 3: value a bigger antler buck. But really the value of

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Speaker 3: that deer really started back during that time.

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Speaker 4: But no, I think it.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: I've heard some great quotes on why history is important, and.

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Speaker 4: History just adds so many dimensions to the present.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you to just show up and do what

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Speaker 3: we do and be a human and not have any

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Speaker 3: understanding of history is really in a way. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I personally feel like it's kind of irresponsible. And I

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Speaker 3: don't say that from like a high, high and lifted

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Speaker 3: up place of thinking that I do.

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Speaker 4: I'm not a trained historian.

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Speaker 3: A lot of the stuff that I'm researching and learning

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Speaker 3: i'm learning for the first time as an adult. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's not like I just you're just born knowing stuff.

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Speaker 3: But every time I research something like the Mississippi River

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Speaker 3: or this this the long Hunter stuff, I'm like, holy cow,

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Speaker 3: I cannot believe that I didn't know this before. It

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Speaker 3: seems it's Yeah, that's the way it feels to me.

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Speaker 3: It's like this almost seems irresponsible that I didn't know

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Speaker 3: this stuff, and that's what's so fascinating and fun about it.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, the research that was done on this book,

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Speaker 3: it was never before compiled data. I'm not saying that

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Speaker 3: people didn't know this data, but nothing has remotely been

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Speaker 3: put together. Where we were taking all this information, you

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Speaker 3: would have found bits and pieces of this information and

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Speaker 3: uncountable sources. So yeah, it's not like we learned something

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Speaker 3: that was never known. We absolutely put together information that

335
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Speaker 3: was never compiled together. So in that six hours of

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Speaker 3: The Long Hunter's Book, you'll hear information that you just

337
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 3: couldn't find anywhere else, which which is really neat and

338
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Speaker 3: and you got to give credit to Steve Ranella and

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Speaker 3: Randall Williams.

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Speaker 4: You know, it was Steve's Steve was the it was

341
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Speaker 4: his idea.

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Speaker 3: Basically, most of historical hunting practices were covered by historians

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Speaker 3: and academics that were not hunters, and so they didn't

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Speaker 3: they often did not answer the questions that you and

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Speaker 3: I would have. And we learned about a boon on

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Speaker 3: a long hunt and how he processed deer, and where

347
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Speaker 3: he hunted and why he hunted, and what he was

348
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Speaker 3: looking for and what the deer we're eating and so

349
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Speaker 3: there's you know, you know what I'm talking about. But

350
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Speaker 3: if you read academic literature, it's like you're reading something

351
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Speaker 3: that yeat has the it has details, it has important stuff,

352
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Speaker 3: but it is not from someone that is asking the

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Speaker 3: right questions for people like us. And so that's what

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Speaker 3: Steve wanted to do, is he said, Hey, let's answer

355
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Speaker 3: the questions that we've we're all interested in and make

356
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Speaker 3: a book like that. So the Angle was coming from

357
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Speaker 3: a different place, and and it wasn't necessarily built four Hunters.

358
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Speaker 3: Anybody could could listen to it and be entertained. It's

359
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 3: not per se made four Hunters, but that was the

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Speaker 3: mentalities to go deeper into it.

361
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Speaker 2: So for someone who doesn't have the who hasn't listened

362
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Speaker 2: to the book yet, let's just lay out a very

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Speaker 2: cliff notes explanation here of just who we're talking about

364
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Speaker 2: here in the first place. So give me your cliff

365
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Speaker 2: notes on who the Long Hunters were, and then what

366
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Speaker 2: this experience that they would go out and have would

367
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Speaker 2: look like, just to give us like a starting point

368
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Speaker 2: for a few of these conversations.

369
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Speaker 3: So the name the Long Hunters was pulled from the

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Speaker 3: literature and in this back in their day, they were

371
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Speaker 3: called just by a few people, often, as history does,

372
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Speaker 3: just kind of tag onto somebody the name long hunters.

373
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Speaker 3: So and the long Hunt described men people groups that

374
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Speaker 3: went into the woods and stayed for extending periods of time.

375
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Speaker 3: The most famous long Hunt was Boon's two year long

376
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Speaker 3: Hunt into Kentucky, when he stayed for two years away

377
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Speaker 3: from home in Kentucky. The book is titled The Long

378
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Speaker 3: Hunters seventeen six sixty one to seventeen seventy five. There

379
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 3: was basically a fourteen year period that was the heyday

380
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 3: of what would become America's story of the Long Hunters.

381
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 3: They weren't Americans at that time. There was no America.

382
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 3: It was the British Colonies. And the British Colonies were

383
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 3: divided by a geopolitical border of the Appalachian Mountains. So

384
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Speaker 3: there's the third imagine. The thirteen colonies on the East

385
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 3: coast and then the Appalachian Mountains, which created a border

386
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: beyond the Appalachian Mountains was not America. It was not

387
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 3: the British Colonies. It was owned by Native American tribes.

388
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Speaker 3: It was owned by the Shawnese and all the tribes

389
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Speaker 3: in different places. But It was also claimed by the French, Spanish,

390
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 3: and the long hunters were people that were not trying

391
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 3: to seek glory. They were not trying to become the

392
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:33,959
Speaker 3: legendary forefathers of modern American hunters. They were guys destitute

393
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 3: trying to make a living. And the global deer skin trade,

394
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 3: which was primarily based out of England, there was a

395
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 3: high demand for deer skin. And everybody knows I got

396
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 3: a pair of deer skin gloves right here on my desk.

397
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 3: Deer skin is incredibly supple and thin and makes incredible

398
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 3: garments like cow leather would be as much thicker, tougher,

399
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: and you know, you don't see that many people wearing

400
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 3: cow leather like as an on skin garment. But the

401
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 3: deer skin was compared to the denim. It was the

402
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 3: denim of the seventeen hundreds. It was used that often.

403
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 3: This global demand. It was also it was just like

404
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 3: the perfect storm. During that time, there was also bovine

405
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 3: disease that had struck down in Europe and there was

406
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 3: a leather shortage, and so they were trying to find

407
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 3: ways to extract resource from the colonies. They had these colonies,

408
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 3: and you know what way can we extract resource man

409
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 3: the deer skin trade. And prior to that, as early

410
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 3: as the early seventeen hundreds, the French and the English

411
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 3: were employing Native American tribes heavily in deer skin. So

412
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 3: by the time our you know, the what would become

413
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 3: this mythological group of we see them as Americans. We

414
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 3: see Boone and Casper Mansker and Simon Kent, Simon Kenton,

415
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 3: all these guys as Americans. By the time they showed up,

416
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 3: Native Americans had been trading deer skins for seventy years.

417
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 3: But these guys would, out of destitute financial situations, would

418
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 3: trespass into primarily Kentucky, but western eastern Tennessee Ohio, and

419
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 3: they would go on long hunts and gather deer skins

420
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 3: for a season. And when they would when they would

421
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 3: gather enough bounty, they would bring the hides back across

422
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 3: the Appalachian Mountains, often often through the Cumberland Gap. The

423
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 3: most some of the most famous long hunts started and

424
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 3: ended at the Cumberland Gap. People going through it, going

425
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 3: on long hunts, coming back over and selling their hides.

426
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Speaker 3: And it's easy to see why they could do it

427
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 3: when you understand the finances of it, they could make

428
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 3: a hefty.

429
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 4: Living in three or four months.

430
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 3: So these guys that had no money, no land, no

431
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 3: way to make a living. They weren't shopkeepers, they weren't manufacturers,

432
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 3: they weren't they had no profession per se. They could

433
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 3: go and I would equate it to they could in

434
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 3: three or four months make eighty or ninety thousand dollars,

435
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 3: which they didn't make that much, but in today's world

436
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 3: like they could make a pretty good living. And so

437
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 3: they were willing to risk everything to do that. And

438
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 3: so they trespassed into land they weren't supposed to be.

439
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 3: They were often killed, got in skirmishes with Native Americans,

440
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 3: had their stuff stolen. I mean some of the most

441
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 3: the wildest stories are a boone and many many others.

442
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 3: But you know, they would have worked a whole winter,

443
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 3: and you know, you just to get all these hides,

444
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: and then on their way back, you know, Native Americans

445
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 3: show up, take all their hides, and all their work

446
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 3: is just at their back to zero.

447
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 2: You know.

448
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 3: But they were the ones trespassing in the first place.

449
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 3: So we made it real clear about that that it's

450
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 3: we have mythologized these guys into heroes, But I mean,

451
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: really they were kind of just normal dudes. Now, what

452
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 3: what I can respect and marvel at is the physical

453
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 3: hardships that they endured and then truly what they would

454
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: have known. It'd be interesting to put a Daniel Boone

455
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 3: in Michigan with you Mark today and just be like, hey, Daniel,

456
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 3: go see if you can kill a big buck?

457
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 2: You know?

458
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, would he be able to? I

459
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 4: don't know.

460
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: I mean I know he would certainly, but would you

461
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: with what you know about deer movement and and and

462
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 3: how to look at the land and you know, but

463
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: certainly these guys for what they were after, for what

464
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 3: they were doing, they would have been as skilled as

465
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 3: anybody on the earth at doing their job.

466
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: You know.

467
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so is Daniel Boone. Still, you correct me

468
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong, But I think it's fair to say

469
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 2: that Daniel Boone would be your favorite character within this era.

470
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: Maybe it seems like you've talked about in your podcast series,

471
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 2: he was the one that maybe stood out above all else.

472
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: But if I'm wrong on that, correct me. But my

473
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: follow up to that is, if that's true, who is

474
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: one other long Hunter from this era other than Boone?

475
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 2: That the rest of us should know because we all

476
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 2: know Boone, we all know Crockett. Who's someone else that

477
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: you guys talk about in this book that really deserves

478
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 2: some recognition.

479
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: Well, Boone is maybe the most fascinating part of this

480
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 3: And in Steve's section, I think he did a really

481
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,239
Speaker 3: good job of describing We've got no choice but to

482
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 3: love Boone because in the book Steve described it as

483
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 3: he said, imagine a stage and it's black, and a

484
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 3: spotlight shut suddenly turns on, and the spotlight is illuminating Boone.

485
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 3: But the stage is full of people. It's full of

486
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 3: people potentially of equal exploits, of equal skill, with equal

487
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 3: stories and lives. But the one that we can see

488
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: is Boone. And as the spotlight fades out from its epicenter,

489
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 3: you can see you can see part of the guy

490
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: that's standing next to him, you can see the guy

491
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 3: next to him fairly well. With the guy next to

492
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 3: that guy you can hardly see, and it fades into blackness,

493
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 3: like that's Boone.

494
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 4: For whatever reason, we just know so much about Boone.

495
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 3: It was it had to do with him getting famous

496
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 3: at just the right time, and we know exponentially more

497
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 3: about Boone than any other long Hunter. But uh, Casper

498
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 3: Mansker is probably is a guy we talk a lot

499
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 3: about in the book. And it's kind of wild, how

500
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 3: I mean, we know a lot about the guy, but

501
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 3: not even remotely what we know about Boone. And it

502
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: Steve did a good job of talking, kind of leveling

503
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 3: the plan field and saying, we know about Boone. It's

504
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 3: hard to think this book isn't about Boone, but he

505
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 3: that there were countless others that were that were like him.

506
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 3: We just like have two or three sentences about that.

507
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 3: You know, you see you start putting the dots together

508
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 3: and you see their names mentioned here and here and

509
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: here and here, But there's just very little. But I

510
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 3: would say, uh, Casper Mansker, Simon Kenton, Uh, the Walling Brothers,

511
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 3: there were there were many others, and we talked about

512
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 3: those guys in the book.

513
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: Is there anything about Mansker that stands out that makes

514
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: him interesting? There's one story I remember here in the

515
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: beginning of the book that was just an an interesting

516
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: one about him crossing paths with Boone. But uh, but

517
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: why do you bring up Mansker? What about him was

518
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: of interest to you?

519
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 4: You know, Mark, I told you this you're you're, you're,

520
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 4: you're pinning me down here.

521
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 3: Uh, it's been a while since i've you know, these

522
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 3: books come out and then you, uh, you kind of

523
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: forget about them.

524
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 4: And and I.

525
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 3: Actually was a little too fearful to listen to the

526
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 3: audio book after we recorded.

527
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: It turned out, good man, you should listen.

528
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 4: You're catching me with my with my you know, well.

529
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: Let me tell you my favorite story then about man.

530
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 4: That's what Mark, Why don't you tell me your favorite.

531
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 2: Story about I just liked this story about he was

532
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: he was out there on a long hunt himself, somewhere

533
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: in Kentucky, I guess it was. And he had been

534
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: on a hunt and he was out there stalking a

535
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: critter or searching for a deer, I'm sure, and he

536
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: heard this sound, this strange sound that did not make

537
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: sense to him. He couldn't he couldn't put a finger

538
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: on what the sing was he was hearing because it

539
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: was so outside of the norm of what he would

540
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 2: typically hear when he's out here hunting. And so he

541
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: starts approaching the sound, and the closer and closer he gets,

542
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: he realizes it's it's a human. And then he realizes

543
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 2: it's someone singing, and he gets out through the brush

544
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: and then there's someone lying down on his back, singing

545
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: out loud. And the person lying on his back singing

546
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: out loud in the middle of the Kentucky Wilderness is

547
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: Daniel Boone. I mean, what an interesting uh colliding of

548
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: the world's.

549
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 3: There, Kay Bark, your favorite story about Casper Mansker is

550
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 3: ultimately about Boone?

551
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: That is that illustrates your original point perfectly.

552
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, there was a lot of there's a lot

553
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: of that story. There's a lot of speculation about Uh.

554
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 3: Robert Morgan, the one of Boone's, my favorite Boone biographer,

555
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 3: he thinks this is just him analyzing what he's learned

556
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 3: about Boone and knowing what he knows about the frontier

557
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 3: and the wilderness. He thinks that Boone knew those guys

558
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: were there and was kind of putting on a show

559
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 3: in a way. That's what That's what Robert Morgan thinks.

560
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily buy it, but Morgan says, you know,

561
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 3: in the in the Kentucky Wilderness, when you were trying

562
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 3: to be as incognito as possible, you know, you didn't

563
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 3: have fires during the day because you didn't want a

564
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 3: pillar or smoke going up and the Shawnees seeing that

565
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 3: you were trespassing on their land.

566
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 4: You know, why would he be so careless as.

567
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 3: To be yelling and screaming in the wilderness?

568
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 4: And he Boone.

569
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 3: Morgan also felt like Boone was kind of a showman

570
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 3: in a way, not in a negative way, but he

571
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 3: knew how to portray the image of Daniel Boone that

572
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 3: was beneficial to his legacy, which I don't necessarily.

573
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 4: I think it's speculative, but.

574
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 3: I think the man probably was just lonely, and what

575
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 3: we know of Boone, he was a charismatic fellow love life,

576
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 3: and he had been in the wilderness alone for so long.

577
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 4: I think he was just singing.

578
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 2: For all that not the wrong with that, you know.

579
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: You mentioned how something that makes this book unique compared

580
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: to anything else about the Long Hunters in the past

581
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: is that it's asking the questions that someone like us

582
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: who is particularly interested in the hunting side of things

583
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 2: would be asking of these guys. And so I love

584
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: the fact that you guys actually cover in the story,

585
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 2: You actually talk about how these guys hunted in detail

586
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: as you dove into this clay. Both this project and

587
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 2: your project about Crockett or Boon. Is there anything that

588
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: you learned about how these guys hunted that we as

589
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 2: modern deer hunters today could benefit from if we were

590
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 2: to be a little bit more like them in this

591
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: way or that way or something. Is there something we

592
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: can learn tactically from Boone or Mansker or Crockett that

593
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,479
Speaker 2: would help us as deer hunters today. Is there anything

594
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: that comes to mind?

595
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 3: You know, they did a lot of still hunting, you know,

596
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 3: slowly moving through the woods. I think they you know,

597
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 3: they never hunted out of tree stands. They they set

598
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 3: salt licks. I'm certain that Boone we never heard. I

599
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 3: don't know that there's any documentation of this, but you

600
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 3: just know it had to happen. You know, a still hunt,

601
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 3: you would have to start out from your camp.

602
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 4: You wouldn't have.

603
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 3: He wouldn't have been traveling for hours in the dark

604
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 3: before daylight to get to a spot. Most likely most

605
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 3: likely probably started right at daylight and hunted out from

606
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 3: his camp and maybe had a specific local to a

607
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 3: specific place. But you know that he would have been

608
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 3: looking for sign and that he probably would have waited

609
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 3: in some you know, actually just set and waited in

610
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 3: places for long periods of time. But the details of

611
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: how they hunted I felt like was pretty low because

612
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 3: the people that were recording these things often weren't real

613
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 3: serious hunters. But yeah, I would have been interesting to

614
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 3: talk to Boone. I can't say that. That's the one

615
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 3: part of their story that to me is kind of vague.

616
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 3: Now we basically know that they just they slipped through

617
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: and hunted, and when they would shoot a deer, they

618
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 3: would hang it up in a tree mark where it

619
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 3: was and they would just continue to hunt and kill

620
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 3: as many deer as they could in a single day,

621
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 3: which could be as many as twenty and then they

622
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 3: would come back through and take the hide off of

623
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 3: the deer and most often leave all the meat. They

624
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 3: would take the meat they needed to eat, but there

625
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: was an incredible amount of waste they would but they

626
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 3: would take the take the deer hides and preserve them,

627
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 3: keep them in a cash at their camp. And so, no,

628
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 3: you don't hear them talking about sign You don't hear

629
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:10,959
Speaker 3: the long hunters talking about antler size. You you hear

630
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 3: occasionally guys talk about you know, mass crop causing animals

631
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:24,959
Speaker 3: to be concentrated. Did you hear anything in there mark

632
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 3: that that are you tipping?

633
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 4: Did you hear anything question about you?

634
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think the one thing that one thing that

635
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 2: stood up to me was their emphasis on salt licks

636
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 2: and and right there's like an historical use of a

637
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 2: resource by wildlife and we shouldn't be surprised by this.

638
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 2: I don't think, you know the fact that hunters two hundred,

639
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: three hundred years ago would have keyed in on the

640
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 2: same kinds of things that we're looking for today, which

641
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: is what's the thing that the deer want to come

642
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: back to time and time again and then and then

643
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 2: key it on that. So I thought that was very

644
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,919
Speaker 2: interesting that there's a story in there, multiple stories about how,

645
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,919
Speaker 2: you know, these long hunters knew where these salt looks were,

646
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 2: they would go back to them time and time again.

647
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: And there were sign of other hunters doing the same thing.

648
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 2: So there's a story about I can't remember who it was,

649
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 2: but you know there's mansker and a group came back

650
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 2: to assault like they'd hunted the year pright previous, and

651
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 2: then they saw a sign that some other hunting party

652
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 2: had been there and wiped out the deer heard that

653
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 2: had been using that salt lick, and there's a different

654
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 2: salt lick that I think that they had found Clovis

655
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 2: points in so sign of hunters from thousands of years

656
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 2: ago hunting at these salt licks and so and now

657
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 2: today in twenty twenty four, I'm sure there are people

658
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: where it's legal hunting artificial salt licks, and if there

659
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 2: are any natural ones out there, I'm sure you would

660
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 2: find deer still utilizing them today. So it's interesting that

661
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 2: some things stay the same despite the technology we have now,

662
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 2: despite the knowledge base we have now, there are some

663
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 2: core things when it comes to understanding wildlife habits that

664
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 2: Boone was keening on, that folks fourteen thousand years were

665
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 2: king in on, and that we can ken now today.

666
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 2: That's interesting to me.

667
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, there was a multiple unique stories. But

668
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 3: there was a story of a guy that went to

669
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 3: a salt lick, a known salt lick, and was tucked

670
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 3: in behind a tree, maybe even in a hollow tree

671
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 3: close to the salt lick, and a group in a

672
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 3: Native American hunter, Shawneese, came in and he watched them

673
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 3: set up to hunt the salt lik just like him.

674
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 3: They didn't know he was there, and he just hunkered

675
00:40:55,560 --> 00:41:00,720
Speaker 3: down and stayed there and basically watched them hunt until

676
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 3: they left. And you know, if they would have discovered him,

677
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 3: most likely they would have. It wouldn't have been good

678
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 3: for him. They talked about how the salt lakes were

679
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 3: the it was the meeting place of wildlife, but it

680
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 3: was also the meeting place of people because that's where

681
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 3: people were after the animals.

682
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 4: It was the most concentration.

683
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:25,919
Speaker 3: You know, when you think about the Eastern Distiguous forest,

684
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 3: just for the sake of the I mean, we know

685
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 3: it wasn't fully canopied. We know there was grassland, savannahs,

686
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 3: and it wasn't one hundred percent canopy big forest, but

687
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 3: for the sake of this thought, it was way more

688
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 3: forest than there is today today. We use topographic features

689
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 3: where we use vegetative features to hunt deer. We use funnels,

690
00:41:54,840 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 3: strips of funnels, between fields, between ag fields, between subdivision whatever.

691
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 3: They wouldn't have had near the features that we would

692
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 3: have today, the vegetative features to hunt deer. And so

693
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 3: they would have been looking for ways to key in

694
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 3: on where are the deer, And they were congregating at

695
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 3: these salt licks and you know the yeah, there are

696
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 3: some huge salt licks naturally, and and you know, I

697
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 3: mean they're still there today. It's still salty, but they're

698
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 3: not wilderness, so there's not animals using them, but big

699
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 3: bone lick. And they had all these salt licks named

700
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 3: and bison would use it, elk would use it, deer

701
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 3: would use it. Everything would use the salt lick. And yeah,

702
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 3: that was sitting. The lick was a it was a

703
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 3: big way to hunt.

704
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 4: You know.

705
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 3: It would have man, it would have been so interesting

706
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 3: if Boone had been interviewed by a modern sport deer hunter,

707
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 3: we would know an entirely different collection of information from him.

708
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 3: I mean, I would have been like, man, you think

709
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 3: the best time to kill a deer is? You know,

710
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 3: and he'd number seventh, he'd say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I

711
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 3: mean I or time of day? You know, would he

712
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 3: would he have had this idea that you have to

713
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 3: hunt morning and evening and midday, and that great. You know,

714
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 3: part of that is an artifact of just living in

715
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 3: the modern world. You know, we we get a couple

716
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 3: hours in the morning to hunt and then we go

717
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 3: go about and do our day or go to work

718
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 3: or whatever.

719
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 2: You know.

720
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 3: Would he have been like, you know, I never really

721
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 3: thought of it, but you know, I killed deer all

722
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 3: day long, and these would have been primarily unpressured deer.

723
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 3: Not It would have been interesting to see how they

724
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 3: would have acted back in. Would they have been just

725
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 3: like our white tail today that would have been hyper spooky,

726
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 3: or or could you get into pockets of deer that

727
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 3: just hadn't seen people in so long that they were

728
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 3: tolerant or maybe be less tolerant of people. You know,

729
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 3: I would ask him about, uh, when would you kill deer?

730
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 3: I would ask him about shot placement. It been like

731
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 3: he's not listened to the Wired to Hunt podcast. He's

732
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,439
Speaker 3: not listened to you know, all these people. He might

733
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 3: have been like, man, I shoot him right in the head, head,

734
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 3: shoot every one of them.

735
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 4: And it's like, really, why not shoot him through the lungs?

736
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 3: Oh man, that's for that's for the.

737
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 4: The sissies, you know.

738
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know what, I don't know. He

739
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 3: probably would have had some very very surprising things. And

740
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 3: Mark Mark Kenyon, the other thing I know that would

741
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 3: have surprised us is he would not have been into

742
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 3: synk control at all.

743
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, am I right right?

744
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 2: Your one is that right, and he certainly killed deer

745
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 2: despite it, So you can do it. You can do it.

746
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 2: Play the wind, the wind, that's right, that's right. You know,

747
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 2: we talked about this, you and I when we were

748
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 2: down in Arkansas together a few years ago when it

749
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: came down to hunt with you just kind of talking

750
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 2: about this whole idea of the long hunt and a

751
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,959
Speaker 2: hunt being more just than heading out to a tree

752
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 2: and shooting something, but instead a larger experience that's that's

753
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 2: days on end that involves, you know, not just the

754
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,919
Speaker 2: taking of game, but it involves the navigation, the exploration,

755
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 2: the surviving out there, all that kind of stuff. And

756
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: it seems like this era in stories of people like

757
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 2: Boone fascinate people in part because of that, because of

758
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: this experience out there. And I'm curious if your thoughts

759
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 2: or if your fascination has changed it all or been

760
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: colored at all by this latest project, by this new

761
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 2: deep dive you've done, or after having done all the

762
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: work on the Bear Grease podcast about these things. You know,

763
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 2: what are your thoughts on this now, on this way

764
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: of living? Do you want to do more of this

765
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 2: kind of thing yourself? Is there something that we as

766
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: deer hunters now today could benefit from if we took

767
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: more of a long hunter type philosophy into the woods

768
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 2: with us on occasion. This is a lot to throw

769
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: at you, but.

770
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 3: You know, it's a fair it's a fair question. I

771
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 3: think the older I get, I I since a coming

772
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 3: change that you know, when I was in my there

773
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 3: was there have probably been a heyday in my bow

774
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 3: hunting career when my goal was just to kill as

775
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 3: many deer as I legally could. And that's what I

776
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 3: enjoyed and and and that has not diminished. I still

777
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 3: just enjoy killing deer, eating deer in whatever way I'm

778
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 3: doing that. If I'm just going out for a couple

779
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 3: hours in the evening here close to home, or if

780
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 3: I'm traveling in some exotic place that's a managed property, like,

781
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 3: I still enjoy that.

782
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 4: But the older I get, there's a bigger.

783
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 3: Space in my need to not just go and extract resource,

784
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 3: but to experience a wild place, to experience it. And

785
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 3: sometimes I think as modern deer hunters, we don't do that.

786
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 3: We we kind of extract. We we we've we've made

787
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 3: a we've made a challenge out of extraction, you know,

788
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 3: technical extraction of a resource from a landscape.

789
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 4: And that's that's fun.

790
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 3: Like I'm not you understand, that's I'm in that boat

791
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 3: and love it, absolutely love it. The older I get,

792
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 3: the bigger the space of me becomes that I want

793
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 3: to experience wildness. I want to challenge myself as a woodsman,

794
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 3: even though I'm not a bushcraft guy. Like I don't

795
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 3: I don't want to wear buckskins. I don't care about

796
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 3: starting fires with flint. I think it's cool, That's not

797
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 3: what I'm talking about. But like, for instance, this year,

798
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 3: well the only buck I killed this year I killed

799
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 3: on on really a mini long hunt Mark in Arkansas.

800
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,439
Speaker 3: Packed my mule, me and my buddy most shepherd who's

801
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 3: kind of a kindred spirit of mine, buddy of mine.

802
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 3: We went in and planned to stay. We had as

803
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 3: we could have stayed as many as five days, and

804
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 3: went back into a spot that it's hard to get

805
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 3: to camped and hunted out from our camp, and.

806
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 4: Oh it was.

807
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,439
Speaker 3: You know, in the moment, it's one of those things

808
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 3: that you're like, what what are we doing? I could

809
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 3: have driven to Missouri and bought an over the countertag

810
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 3: and like walked in somewhere and probably killed a deer already,

811
00:48:55,360 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 3: but it was it was an incredible adventure, really was.

812
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 3: And now I've already lost some track of your original question.

813
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 2: Well it was you're you're onto it, which was just

814
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: you know, is there value or have you found any

815
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 2: increased interest in going into a hunt more in the

816
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 2: style of the long hunter, So so exactly what you said,

817
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 2: rather than now, they did go into it with extraction

818
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 2: as their goal, but their goal required a longer experience.

819
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: We're kind of role playing a little bit, I guess

820
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 2: you could say, to get that kind of experience. So

821
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: having a bigger experience, having a an experience, it's more

822
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,399
Speaker 2: about It's it's less about can I kill a big deer?

823
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 2: More about can I go something? Can I go somewhere

824
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: I'm interested in, can I learn something new? Can I

825
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 2: stretch myself as an outdoors and then can I immerse

826
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 2: myself in this place and everything it has to offer?

827
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 2: And that's what it sounds like you've been doing more

828
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 2: and more, and I can relate to that too. I've

829
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 2: had a desire to to focus more on those hunting

830
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 2: adjacent things versus just like do I kill the thing

831
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 2: I want? It's becoming more and more important for me

832
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 2: to did I have the experience I want in the

833
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 2: kind of place I want with the people I care about.

834
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 2: That's becoming more important to me, And I wonder if

835
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 2: that's a little something we can take from these stories.

836
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I don't think they're mutually exclusive, because you know,

837
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 3: you get the idea that, oh, well, these guys are

838
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 3: just You might hear what I'm saying and say, oh,

839
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 3: Clay's just likes camping and probably doesn't kill very many deer.

840
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 4: I mean, now, I'm to me, the.

841
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 3: I'm looking for a specific deer taken out of the

842
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 3: place that I want to be, and that will be

843
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 3: one of the most well. I mean, even the deer

844
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 3: I killed this year wasn't a big deer, but that's

845
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 3: a really valuable deer. But to go in and be

846
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 3: a successful hunter, I mean, to me, going on a

847
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 3: hunt like I'm talking about, not killing a deer is

848
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 3: not a success.

849
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 4: I struggle with.

850
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 3: Being like we, oh, I'm just here for the experience. No,

851
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 3: I'm here to kill a deer. And but so I

852
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 3: think you can combine the two and it's just what

853
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 3: you're interested in. I mean, I think hearing other people

854
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 3: talk sometimes shapes what shapes us and makes us interested. Like,

855
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 3: for instance, I think the reason long before I knew

856
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 3: anything so to speak, or anything of detail about Daniel Boone,

857
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:40,359
Speaker 3: my buddy James Lawrence was essentially doing long hunts back

858
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 3: in the seventies, eighties, and nineties, and he had no

859
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 3: concept of history. His idea, the way he hunted and

860
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 3: what he did was so similar to the long hunters

861
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 3: it's unreal. And he came by it honest, he wouldn't

862
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 3: have known anything about history, but literally they were that

863
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 3: close to that era that that's just the way he hunted.

864
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 3: I mean he took he took horses back into wilderness

865
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 3: and would just hunt solo as long as he could.

866
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 3: Never climbed a tree, still hunted, never wore camo never.

867
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, shock pouch deer back to his

868
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 3: to his horse. I mean, nobody told him that was cool.

869
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 3: He just thought that's the way you're supposed to hunt.

870
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 3: And and now when I see Boone and learn about

871
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 3: the long hunters, I'm like, James, like, you learned this

872
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 3: from them. You may not know you learned it from them,

873
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 3: but you did, you know, I mean, it was just

874
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 3: passed down yeah, so, and that's that's romantic to me.

875
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 3: So that's as much as I'm influenced by Boone, I'm

876
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 3: influenced by people like James Lawrence and uh. I just

877
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 3: have a lot of respect for those guys. Again, I

878
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 3: love hunting the way that we in modern times. I

879
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,439
Speaker 3: mean no doubt. I mean this where I was hunting

880
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 3: in Mississippi was a pretty modern hunt really, But I

881
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 3: also just have something for the for the hard way.

882
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 2: All Right, here's something that I'm challenged by. You talked

883
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: about how how this whole idea of this kind of hunting,

884
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,399
Speaker 2: of this era, of these people, we've kind of romanticized it, right,

885
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 2: You just said that you've kind of felt that way,

886
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of us do. Right. We

887
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 2: look back on it, and it seems we glorify it,

888
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 2: we romanticize it. It seems fascinating to us for so

889
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 2: many reasons. I Mean, there's there's countless stories and American

890
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 2: folk heroes from this area, right, but these folks were

891
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 2: the perpetrators of maybe one of the most catastrophic crimes

892
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 2: against wildlife in the history of the world. When you

893
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 2: look at the market hunters, both with deer and buffalo

894
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,240
Speaker 2: and so many other species across North America were nearly

895
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: wiped off the face of the earth by this group

896
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 2: of folks trying to make ends meet. We almost lost

897
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 2: white tail deer, we almost lost buffalo, We almost lost

898
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 2: so many critters. So how do you or how do

899
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 2: we square that? And that we have canonized, we have

900
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 2: made heroes of people who almost wiped out the wildlife

901
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 2: that we care so much about today, who did something

902
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 2: that if it was done today, we would look at

903
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 2: them as the worst crooks in town. We would look

904
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,280
Speaker 2: at them as like the people burning down the house

905
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 2: that we live in. But now we look at them

906
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 2: today as heroes. How do you make sense of that?

907
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 2: How do you square that?

908
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:58,399
Speaker 3: That's a well stated question mark and an accurate one

909
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 3: in that these guys were we're we're a part of

910
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 3: a vast squander of of of wildlife resource. And I

911
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:17,879
Speaker 3: think the short answer is that luckily at the end

912
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:23,359
Speaker 3: wildlife one like if today there were no deer, if

913
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 3: literally white tailed deer were hunting to extinction or we

914
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 3: only could go see them in zoos, I think are

915
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 3: we would not be talking about the long hunters in

916
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 3: the way that we do.

917
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 4: Absolutely not.

918
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:41,240
Speaker 3: If if there were no bison, we would be talking

919
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 3: about these people different. But just the way the cards

920
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 3: came out, we do have them. And in a way

921
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 3: you can trace back the saving of American wildlife to

922
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 3: these guys, like if yeah, I look at it as

923
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 3: just one big, one story. I look at it as

924
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 3: one big story because of a market value. There was

925
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 3: cultural value assigned to hunting wildlife that was the original

926
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 3: value of its that was worth money. You could feed

927
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 3: your family, you could put shoes on your children's feet,

928
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 3: and that deer had value and you sought after it

929
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 3: because you could access the resource of it. That happened

930
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 3: so much that there was an incredible wanton slaughter of

931
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 3: wildlife in America for you know, one hundred and fifty years.

932
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 4: True story.

933
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 3: But because of that value that was initially kind of

934
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 3: a maybe not so righteous value that translated into the

935
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,839
Speaker 3: same people, the hunters being the ones who.

936
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:57,760
Speaker 4: Who saw that value.

937
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 3: Roosevelt, all these guys in the late eighteen hundreds that

938
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 3: started the boone Crocket Club that that consciously decided we

939
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 3: are going to shift the value system away from commercial

940
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 3: market hunting onto you know, adding value to older age animals.

941
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 3: We're not going to take away hunting access. We're going

942
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 3: to keep hunting access in the hands of the people

943
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 3: so that they'll have vested interest in this resource. And

944
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 3: we're going to save wildlife by you know this strategic

945
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 3: strategic hunting and then and then later it would be

946
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 3: habitat funded through hunting. And it all goes back to

947
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 3: a man wanting a deer, a man wanting a bison,

948
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 3: and though the motivation was out of control, it was

949
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 3: untethered back in those days, that original desire. You know

950
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 3: that Io Wilson has a book called Biophilia, which is

951
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 3: he believes that there's an innate thing inside of man

952
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 3: that loves animals, and you know, the love of that

953
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 3: animal comes from a lot of different places, but almost

954
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 3: exclusively so we can exploit them as a resource for us.

955
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 3: And so that's a that's a not a great picture.

956
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 3: But yeah, we have to condemn these guys for the

957
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 3: for the want and waste that they that they inflicted

958
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 3: on America. But there were different scales of it, just

959
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 3: like today. I mean, there were people who were shooting

960
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 3: bison out of train car windows just to watch them fall. Yeah,

961
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 3: you know, there were also planes tribes that were killing

962
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 3: bison kind of in traditional ways and contributing to the market, uh,

963
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 3: the commercial market.

964
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 2: There were there.

965
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 3: Were egregious, egregious wildlife crimes by today's standards, and even then,

966
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 3: even then, there were there were people that were like, man,

967
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 3: this is bad. One of my favorite books of all

968
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 3: time is this Wild Sports Book by Frederick Gershtacker, who

969
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 3: was in Arkansas between eighteen thirty seven and eighteen forty two.

970
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 3: German guy came over here. All through this book he says,

971
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 3: Holy cal these Americans are wasteful. They just kill everything.

972
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 3: And he did too though he was right there with

973
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 3: him market hunting and interesting.

974
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 4: So it's yeah, it's it's a tough spot.

975
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 3: But if you kind of view it as one big picture,

976
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 3: and you can't, I mean, historical revision is so tough.

977
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 3: I'd have been right there with a mark. I mean,

978
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 3: there's no way that I could say that. I would

979
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 3: have been like, well, you know what, boys, we should

980
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 3: probably just kill one or two deer each every year

981
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 3: and say.

982
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 2: There was a certain ignorance to their situations, right. I

983
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 2: don't think anyone out there realized the impact that they

984
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 2: were having. They did not realize the finite nature of

985
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 2: the resource to the degree that it was. And I

986
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 2: think a lot of people for a long time thought

987
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 2: these were infinite resources that you know, there was no

988
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 2: end to it. And so that doesn't necessarily excuse them,

989
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 2: but to your point, it does. It's hard to, you know,

990
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 2: judge someone by our standards and knowledge today when they

991
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 2: did not have the luxury of that knowledge and context.

992
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 2: Then yeah. So so yeah, it's it's a tricky thing

993
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 2: to try to make sense of though. Now when you

994
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 2: look back on that era of market hunting and the

995
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 2: crash of wildlife populations and then you know what happened after,

996
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 2: what's the lesson that you take from that? What's the

997
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 2: lesson we can take from that?

998
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 3: I think it's stay humble, because history is gonna judge

999
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 3: you for what you're doing today that you're fully convinced

1000
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 3: is right and ethical and good. And we will look

1001
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 3: back on stuff we're doing today with wildlife and go,

1002
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 3: holy cow, how did how was Mark Kenyon a part

1003
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 3: of that? I mean, it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen,

1004
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 3: and so to me, it's just stay humble, you know.

1005
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 3: I mean, like you think of all the challenges that

1006
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 3: we have in wildlife today, you know, chronic wasting disease.

1007
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 3: There may come something that in the future that we

1008
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 3: realize we've been doing so wrong inside of it. That

1009
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 3: would be so evident that unless someone was really paying

1010
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 3: attention seventy years from now, they would just think, man,

1011
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 3: those guys were so reckless, just reckless. But here we are,

1012
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 3: sitting here today with all the information of the best science,

1013
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 3: and we're kind of like Goleia, we don't really know

1014
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 3: exactly what to do. We have some ideas, you know.

1015
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 3: To me, that's the biggest thing is it's just stay humble.

1016
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 3: I mean, our motivations of humans change so much.

1017
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 4: I mean.

1018
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 3: It's hard to picture what should the earth persist that

1019
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 3: in one hundred and fifty years they would say about

1020
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 3: this generation, you know, when it comes to how we

1021
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 3: manage wildlife, and yeah, perhaps will be the heroes, or

1022
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 3: perhaps will be We're a part of some big moved

1023
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 3: movement that we can't even see right now.

1024
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 2: You know, I guess that's usually the case, right You

1025
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 2: don't know, you don't know what history book you're in

1026
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,440
Speaker 2: in the moment. They'll be writing those stories fifty years

1027
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 2: from now or one hundred years from now that's a

1028
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 2: very interesting thing to ponder. So there have been there

1029
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 2: have been some renewed calls to put a price on

1030
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 2: wildlife again, specifically meet There have been some calls for

1031
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 2: the fact, not the fact, but there have been some

1032
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 2: calls for a need to have a market hunt again,

1033
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 2: in particular for white tailed deer in some places where

1034
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 2: not enough deer being killed or where there are issues

1035
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 2: with disease and calls to try to reduce the population,

1036
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 2: and folks saying, man, if we don't incentivize people to

1037
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 2: do it, it's not going to get done. And so

1038
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 2: some folks have said, hey, we should do that again.

1039
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 2: We should allow people to sell the excess meat or something.

1040
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 2: We have to incentivize it somehow. When you hear that,

1041
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 2: knowing what you know, having researched and studied the history

1042
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 2: of market hunting, what is your take on that, if

1043
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 2: you have any ad all, does that? Does that seem

1044
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 2: reasonable to you? Does that worry you? What do you think?

1045
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 3: It's actually the first I've heard of a call for

1046
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 3: that mark, So I haven't heard that. Is that a

1047
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 3: legitimate thing? Like people they're people that have power that

1048
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 3: are saying this, or just the internet crowd.

1049
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 2: There are I wouldn't say people with real, real power yet,

1050
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 2: Like I'm not talking government officials pitching it, but there

1051
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 2: are folks within our community and folks within the wildlife

1052
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 2: management community who have talked about that. It's like, Hey,

1053
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 2: do we need to go back down that road.

1054
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a tough one. That's a tough one.

1055
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I incentivizing killing deer is uh, it's something

1056
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 3: we've got to do in some places, you know, and

1057
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:07,919
Speaker 3: considering that the deer meat is so healthy, it's such

1058
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 3: a clean meat, it's honestly what the world is after

1059
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 3: in a lot of ways. I just got some venison

1060
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 3: sticks from Hawaii from wild killed access there in Hawaii.

1061
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 4: Did you get any of those?

1062
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 2: Mark? I think I'm supposed to be getting some, but

1063
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 2: I haven't got them yet.

1064
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 3: And my kids immediately saw the labeling and said one

1065
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 3: hundred percent wild venison. Like what's up, Dad? Like, they're

1066
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 3: like North American Mallive Wildlife Conservation. You can't sell wildlife.

1067
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 3: And you know, we kind of quickly found out where

1068
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 3: they're access teer which are invasive. So somehow they're regulating

1069
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 3: killing them and USDA processing them and selling them.

1070
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1071
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 3: I really don't have an answer, Mark, I don't I mean, yeah,

1072
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 3: it would kind of be. It would It would definitely

1073
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:58,880
Speaker 3: go against the grain, probably like in the seventies when

1074
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 3: they're in the eighties and nineties when they start encouraging

1075
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 3: us to kill dose and all our grandpas were like.

1076
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 4: We're never going to kill a doe deer.

1077
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:11,160
Speaker 3: That's you know, we're gonna shoot Spike bucks every you know,

1078
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 3: we'll shoot everyone with C but no does. And now

1079
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:19,919
Speaker 3: we realize how wrong that was. I don't know, man,

1080
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 3: I don't know. It would have to be highly regulated.

1081
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:23,960
Speaker 3: I mean, there's probably a way you could do it,

1082
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 3: Like if if you could say, everybody in the state

1083
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 3: of Missouri can legally sell seven doe deer at this

1084
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 3: USDA processor Dot DA DA DA DA and get seventy

1085
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 3: five dollars per year, so you could make an extra

1086
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 3: you know, five hundred dollars a year.

1087
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1088
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 3: People would exploit it, people with I mean, yeah, there'd

1089
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:51,680
Speaker 3: be people that'd be making a living off of it

1090
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 3: and taking everybody's I mean, there would just be It

1091
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 3: would just be so hard to regulate. But then again,

1092
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 3: if deer numbers get so high places and disease is

1093
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 3: a problem. It's like, would it be better to do

1094
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 3: that or to hire government assassins that go in and

1095
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 3: kill deer, or the ridiculousness of your contraceptives. You know,

1096
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 3: where these people are going in and tranquilizing to your

1097
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:16,880
Speaker 3: that's just unreal.

1098
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 4: So I don't know. That may be conversations that we

1099
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 4: have in the future.

1100
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know either, and I haven't you know,

1101
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 2: gone deep down that road of inquiry yet. But it's

1102
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 2: something you start hearing tossed around, and it's it's it's

1103
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 2: a worrisome thing, like there's that slippery slope worry looking

1104
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 2: back on what happened last time. But who knows, Like

1105
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 2: you said, you break up a great point. All of

1106
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 2: these things will be judged by future generations. We don't

1107
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 2: really know the right answer right now. We don't know

1108
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 2: what they're going to say. But all you can do

1109
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 2: is make the best decision with the best information you

1110
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 2: have at hand and in a good, good set of intentions,

1111
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 2: and let the chips fall where they are, you.

1112
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 3: Know, I think the biggest thing that we that we

1113
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:16,120
Speaker 3: will give to future generations is modern hunting, and all

1114
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 3: the criticism that it takes even from the inside, we

1115
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:28,560
Speaker 3: are adding monetary value to wild places and preservation of

1116
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 3: wild places. I'm even talking about I'm primarily even talking

1117
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:34,760
Speaker 3: about private land like I was on the Mississippi River,

1118
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 3: and the land inside the levees of the Mississippi River

1119
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 3: is incredibly valuable. I mean, probably some of the most

1120
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 3: valuable ground in America. And it has that kind of

1121
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 3: wild value, which there's a thousand ways to look at that.

1122
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 3: Some could view that as an atrocity because access is

1123
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 3: not something you can get inside the levees of the

1124
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 3: Missippi River. I mean it's closed down, tight private land.

1125
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 3: And but the way I look at it is that

1126
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 3: land at one time was owned by primarily owned by

1127
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 3: timber companies who were managing that land solely for the

1128
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 3: for timber and making money. Today a lot of that

1129
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 3: timber company land has now gone into private hands and

1130
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 3: is now being heavily managed for wildlife, and it's so

1131
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 3: valuable because of its hunting recreational hunting value, that land

1132
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:39,559
Speaker 3: will probably never go back into the hands of timber companies.

1133
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 3: And not that timber companies are the villain, but I'm

1134
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:48,320
Speaker 3: making a point that land being managed exclusively for wildlife

1135
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:53,000
Speaker 3: is perhaps better than land being exclusively managed for financial

1136
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 3: gains of the forestry industry, which I'm pro cut them down.

1137
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 3: I'm pro prologing. You know, you hear what I'm saying.

1138
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 3: But we're we're adding value to keeping wild places intact

1139
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 3: because of recreational hunting.

1140
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 4: I mean, because.

1141
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, there's there's land all around me

1142
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 3: right now, farms that are being bought, subdivided, divided up

1143
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:24,320
Speaker 3: into five acre plots. You know, our buddy Matt Cook,

1144
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:29,679
Speaker 3: just a friend of ours at Meat Eater, he bought

1145
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 3: a golf course up in Michigan and turned it into

1146
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 3: a just turn it back into a place to hunt.

1147
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:41,920
Speaker 3: You know, that's an extreme version of it. Most of

1148
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 3: us can't do that. But we can make decisions to

1149
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:49,800
Speaker 3: buy a piece of property and not fragment it on

1150
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 3: purpose just for financial gain.

1151
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:51,880
Speaker 2: You know.

1152
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 3: So anyway, I think that's the one thing that we'll

1153
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:57,479
Speaker 3: look back on and be proud of.

1154
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 2: I think you're a hundred percent right, And it is

1155
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:04,840
Speaker 2: not a small it is not a trivial thing either,

1156
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,479
Speaker 2: the impact that has. So there was a study that

1157
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 2: came on a few years ago that quantified how land

1158
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 2: is what for what use is land is owned or

1159
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 2: least And the study found that about three hundred and

1160
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:26,240
Speaker 2: fifty six million acres of land across the United States

1161
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:30,719
Speaker 2: of America is primarily owned or least for hunting. That's

1162
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 2: just for hunting. Four hundred and forty million acres were

1163
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 2: for wildlife related recreation. Three hundred and fifty six of

1164
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:41,400
Speaker 2: those were for hunting. So that is that's about half

1165
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 2: the sum total that America has a public land. So

1166
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 2: we have it. So we have six hundred and forty

1167
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 2: some million acres of federal public land. We've got another

1168
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:52,200
Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty six million acres of private land

1169
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 2: now managed for hunting and wildlife. That is a huge

1170
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:59,720
Speaker 2: sum yeah of wildlife habitat that is being protected in

1171
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,720
Speaker 2: mana for critters that you know, if we didn't have that,

1172
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 2: you know, there aren't as much as I love hiking

1173
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:09,680
Speaker 2: or backpacking or whatever like, there aren't a pile of

1174
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:12,360
Speaker 2: people who loved a mountain bike who are buying thousands

1175
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 2: of acres of land to manage to help wildlife. That's

1176
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:19,640
Speaker 2: a thing that we are community is doing and is

1177
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:22,639
Speaker 2: keeping a lot of species on the ground and here

1178
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:25,639
Speaker 2: because of it. So yeah, that's a big deal.

1179
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 3: I think in the future, in our kids' lives and

1180
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:36,519
Speaker 3: our grandchildren's lives, one of the most finite resources will

1181
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:40,960
Speaker 3: be wild places, just places without roads, places without fragmentation,

1182
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 3: large tracts of land, and you can't get those back,

1183
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:47,839
Speaker 3: I mean in the foreseeable future, and I mean unless

1184
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:51,920
Speaker 3: our whole civilization just falls and becomes ruins and you know,

1185
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:55,640
Speaker 3: people a thousand years from now dig up our houses

1186
01:12:55,680 --> 01:13:00,599
Speaker 3: from the ground. I mean, you don't get back where

1187
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:03,519
Speaker 3: a Walmart goes in. You don't get back where a

1188
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:08,360
Speaker 3: subdivision goes in. I haven't told the world this yet, Mark,

1189
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:10,680
Speaker 3: but we'll release it on the Wired to Hunt podcast.

1190
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:14,400
Speaker 3: We're gonna do a series on American wilderness. I've been

1191
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:19,680
Speaker 3: working for pretty long time on a series on American

1192
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:25,520
Speaker 3: wilderness and wilderness like with a capital W regulated wilderness,

1193
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:30,440
Speaker 3: but also the idea of wilderness and how as Americans

1194
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:35,480
Speaker 3: we view that very different from anywhere in the world.

1195
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:40,400
Speaker 3: And as I've researched, and most of the information is

1196
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:42,720
Speaker 3: not coming from hunters. I mean, there's a lot of

1197
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:46,000
Speaker 3: people that are invested in wilderness, but as I read it,

1198
01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:49,240
Speaker 3: I'm like, hey, do y'all realize that, like we're the

1199
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:54,600
Speaker 3: ones who are probably doing more, especially in private lands,

1200
01:13:55,120 --> 01:14:01,759
Speaker 3: for keeping keeping tracks of land intact and adding value

1201
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 3: to to just raw land, probably more than anybody. And

1202
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:08,760
Speaker 3: it's it's going to be a really interesting.

1203
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:10,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

1204
01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1205
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, the history of our wilderness preservation system and all

1206
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 2: that's fascinating stuff. Did a lot of research into that.

1207
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:25,719
Speaker 5: You're an expert, You're an expert on it to a degree,

1208
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:28,680
Speaker 5: and uh, and yeah, it was very very interesting, and

1209
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:32,280
Speaker 5: I agree with you that I think these last places

1210
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:34,880
Speaker 5: that we have that are relatively.

1211
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:38,640
Speaker 2: Wild are about as rare of a resource as you

1212
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:42,439
Speaker 2: can find today. So I'm all for protecting them. And uh.

1213
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:46,960
Speaker 2: And there's very interesting things between the capital W designation

1214
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:51,160
Speaker 2: and then the concept and philosophy of wilderness and what

1215
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 2: all that means to to us as a people, to

1216
01:14:55,240 --> 01:14:59,280
Speaker 2: us as hunters, to us to managing resources. I mean,

1217
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 2: there's you've got a lot of fought out of there

1218
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:04,879
Speaker 2: for podcast series. I'm sure it's gonna be great. Yeah.

1219
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:07,519
Speaker 2: Have you read the book Wilderness in the American Mind?

1220
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:08,479
Speaker 2: I think it's called.

1221
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:12,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, Man, I got it sitting right over here. It

1222
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:14,960
Speaker 3: one of my one of my favorite books.

1223
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, phenomenal, that phenomenal.

1224
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 3: Hey, I need to interview you for this podcast for real? Yeah, yeah, deal,

1225
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 3: for real.

1226
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:29,519
Speaker 4: I want to I want to talk to you.

1227
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:33,960
Speaker 3: I've got I've got a great I've already done several

1228
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:37,320
Speaker 3: interviews in the Very Interesting People.

1229
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:42,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, along those lines, so Wilderness in the American

1230
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 2: Mind by Roderick Frasier Nash, I think is the author.

1231
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:49,439
Speaker 2: That's a recommendation I'll give folks. But now I'm gonna

1232
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:52,640
Speaker 2: throw back at you on this topic of long hunters

1233
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:56,559
Speaker 2: and this era that you guys explored in your book.

1234
01:15:56,720 --> 01:16:00,240
Speaker 2: Are there any other books or documentaries or or any

1235
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:02,640
Speaker 2: other kind of resource you would recommend to folks if

1236
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 2: they want to dive into this world more?

1237
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:08,120
Speaker 4: Well, anybody that's been hovering around.

1238
01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:12,400
Speaker 3: Bear Grease at all or even meat Eater with with

1239
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:16,719
Speaker 3: Steve's stuff. You know, the book Boone by Robert Robert

1240
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:17,920
Speaker 3: Morgan is really good.

1241
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:20,839
Speaker 4: There's a book.

1242
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:29,880
Speaker 3: There's a book called My Father by Nathan Boone, which

1243
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 3: is Boone's youngest son, who was interviewed when he was

1244
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:37,960
Speaker 3: seventy years old, thirty years after Boone's death, and it's

1245
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:40,599
Speaker 3: it's some of the best insight that we have into Boone,

1246
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:44,400
Speaker 3: And again Boone is the primary character that we understand

1247
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 3: the Long Hunters from. So that's an incredible book. Yeah,

1248
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:51,719
Speaker 3: Unfortunately it's all these Boone books.

1249
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 2: Man.

1250
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, there, there's there's there's a lot, there's Uh.

1251
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 4: Robert eckertz Ah, the world's.

1252
01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:05,600
Speaker 3: Going to be mad at me for not knowing the

1253
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 3: name of his book. I actually didn't like it. But

1254
01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:11,880
Speaker 3: The Frontiersman, I believe it's called The Frontiersman. I started

1255
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:15,439
Speaker 3: and couldn't finish it. People probably be very angry at

1256
01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:18,559
Speaker 3: me for saying that. But that's a very famous book

1257
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:24,000
Speaker 3: about the era of the Long Hunters. Ted Franklin Blow

1258
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:27,640
Speaker 3: has a lot of work on the Long Hunters. A

1259
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 3: lot of the stuff that we research that we got

1260
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:37,880
Speaker 3: came from different articles and papers that he wrote. But

1261
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:43,200
Speaker 3: I still got to go with Robert Morgan's Boone talks

1262
01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:45,000
Speaker 3: a lot about the Long Hunters.

1263
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:51,960
Speaker 2: Awesome. Last question for you. If someone is listening to

1264
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:55,400
Speaker 2: this today, obviously they should go out and pick up

1265
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:58,000
Speaker 2: a copy download a copy of The Long Hunters book

1266
01:17:58,040 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 2: to listen to. But if they want to listen to

1267
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:04,320
Speaker 2: some Bear Grease episodes, either about this world or about

1268
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:06,479
Speaker 2: anything else you're working on out Could you recommend like

1269
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:09,840
Speaker 2: one or two Bear Grease episodes that folks should go

1270
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:11,040
Speaker 2: listen to if they haven't already.

1271
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 3: Well, I'll have to bring up the current episode that

1272
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:22,800
Speaker 3: came out on January the tenth, which is called the

1273
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:29,400
Speaker 3: Donnie Baker Story Nightmare. That's the title, and that's part one,

1274
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 3: and it is about the illegal killing of a two

1275
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:37,720
Speaker 3: hundred and four inch buck on the Fort Leonardwood Military

1276
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:42,200
Speaker 3: base in central Missouri in two thousand and nine. Fascinating

1277
01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:46,600
Speaker 3: story and the most unique thing about it, Mark is

1278
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 3: that we interviewed the guy who did it. We didn't

1279
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:55,320
Speaker 3: interview game wardens, we didn't interview landowners, we didn't interview

1280
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 3: people in the community. We interviewed the man who commit

1281
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:07,120
Speaker 3: the crime, which was pretty unique. And it's really it's

1282
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:10,719
Speaker 3: a story about the illegally, the illegal killing of this buck,

1283
01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:15,120
Speaker 3: but really it's a human story more than more than anything,

1284
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:17,760
Speaker 3: just about what this guy, the kind of the mentality

1285
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:20,880
Speaker 3: this guy had and what he went through, and just

1286
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:24,160
Speaker 3: what it was like killing this deer, trying to hide it,

1287
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:28,040
Speaker 3: lying about it, and I don't know. It was one

1288
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:32,519
Speaker 3: of the hardest podcasts I've done because the guy, the

1289
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:34,559
Speaker 3: guy's forty years old. His name is Donnie Baker. I mean,

1290
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 3: it's not a secret, and.

1291
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:38,720
Speaker 4: It was.

1292
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:40,880
Speaker 3: It was a challenge because a lot of times when

1293
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:44,080
Speaker 3: you're dealing with people that are deceased, I don't know,

1294
01:19:44,160 --> 01:19:46,679
Speaker 3: you just feel a little bit more liberty to say

1295
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:50,559
Speaker 3: what you think or And in this case, I was

1296
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:54,439
Speaker 3: very concerned about like crushing this guy.

1297
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:59,040
Speaker 2: Honestly, Yeah, with the ramifications of the story out there. Yea.

1298
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:02,720
Speaker 3: Even when when he agreed to tell the story, I

1299
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 3: was like, man, let's talk about this. You sure you

1300
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 3: want to do this? And I think it influenced the

1301
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:10,800
Speaker 3: way I told the story in a way, in a

1302
01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:15,960
Speaker 3: good way. But it's a fascinating story. So the Donnie

1303
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:18,639
Speaker 3: Baker Story, it's a two part series. The second part

1304
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:21,759
Speaker 3: comes out. I don't know when this podcast that we're

1305
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:23,720
Speaker 3: making right now is going to come out, Mark, but

1306
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 3: it comes out like January twentieth something. The second part

1307
01:20:29,479 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 3: comes out. But it's it's really cool. And then you know,

1308
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:39,400
Speaker 3: our boon series was good. Whole Collier, Mississippi River.

1309
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:42,439
Speaker 4: Ah. I love mal Mark.

1310
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:46,559
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, it's good stuff. Man. My son Everett still

1311
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:50,720
Speaker 2: special requests Clay Newcombe talking about Daniel Boone. Every once

1312
01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:53,120
Speaker 2: in a while, I'll be driving, let's listen to Clay

1313
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:58,720
Speaker 2: talking about Boone. Not again, not again ever, please, So

1314
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:02,480
Speaker 2: up the good work man. You're doing great. I love

1315
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 2: the things that you're putting out there into the world.

1316
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 2: I appreciate you, and thank you for coming on and

1317
01:21:07,439 --> 01:21:07,800
Speaker 2: doing this.

1318
01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:10,679
Speaker 4: Thanks Mark, really appreciate it. Thank you.

1319
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:15,599
Speaker 2: All right, and that's a wrap. Thank you for tuning in.

1320
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:18,519
Speaker 2: Hope you enjoyed this conversation, as I always do when

1321
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:21,880
Speaker 2: me and Clay get together. Good guy does great work,

1322
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:25,840
Speaker 2: and you know this. This latest audiobook is another great

1323
01:21:25,880 --> 01:21:27,800
Speaker 2: example of that, so I hope you'll check it out

1324
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 2: with that in mind. And with that said, thanks for

1325
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:33,879
Speaker 2: being here. Appreciate you being a part of this community.

1326
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:38,519
Speaker 2: Thanks for tuning in, and until next time, stay wired

1327
01:21:39,040 --> 01:21:39,559
Speaker 2: to Hunt.