1 00:00:21,244 --> 00:00:24,604 Speaker 1: Film Spotting is presented by Regal Unlimited, the all you 2 00:00:24,605 --> 00:00:27,605 Speaker 1: can watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in 3 00:00:27,685 --> 00:00:31,365 Speaker 1: just two visits. See any standard two D movie anytime 4 00:00:31,725 --> 00:00:34,725 Speaker 1: with no blackout dates or restrictions. Sign up now on 5 00:00:34,765 --> 00:00:36,964 Speaker 1: the Regal app or at the link in our description 6 00:00:37,165 --> 00:00:41,685 Speaker 1: and use code film spot twenty six to receive fifteen percent. 7 00:00:41,445 --> 00:00:46,525 Speaker 2: Off time for another archive drop. Josh, it's Wednesday, and 8 00:00:46,685 --> 00:00:49,724 Speaker 2: I think we've got a good one. We're continuing our 9 00:00:49,805 --> 00:00:54,685 Speaker 2: best Picture winners theme with our twenty eighteen reckoning with 10 00:00:54,804 --> 00:00:58,124 Speaker 2: the Lord of the Rings trilogy. This was originally recorded 11 00:00:58,525 --> 00:01:02,605 Speaker 2: for the fifteenth anniversary of the Best Picture winning Return 12 00:01:02,645 --> 00:01:06,165 Speaker 2: of the King. And if I remember this correctly, somehow, 13 00:01:06,485 --> 00:01:09,005 Speaker 2: even though I saw Fellowship of the Ring when it 14 00:01:09,045 --> 00:01:12,645 Speaker 2: came out, really liked it in theaters when I saw it, 15 00:01:13,164 --> 00:01:15,965 Speaker 2: I didn't see the next two installments in the series, 16 00:01:15,965 --> 00:01:19,445 Speaker 2: and so this was truly my reckoning with the trilogy 17 00:01:19,804 --> 00:01:22,565 Speaker 2: of films and spoilers. If you don't remember that and 18 00:01:22,605 --> 00:01:24,845 Speaker 2: you're about to listen to it here, I will tell 19 00:01:24,885 --> 00:01:28,604 Speaker 2: you that it's okay. It turned out well. I liked 20 00:01:28,604 --> 00:01:29,404 Speaker 2: it quite a bit. 21 00:01:29,524 --> 00:01:33,205 Speaker 1: Which that apprehension you're alluding to is what I felt 22 00:01:33,244 --> 00:01:35,444 Speaker 1: at him because I treasured these movies and I know 23 00:01:36,005 --> 00:01:38,925 Speaker 1: fantasy isn't always up your alley, and I just thought, oh, boy, 24 00:01:38,925 --> 00:01:41,524 Speaker 1: are we doing this? Is this if you didn't bother 25 00:01:41,604 --> 00:01:44,405 Speaker 1: to see these? Is you know even if he liked 26 00:01:44,444 --> 00:01:46,084 Speaker 1: the first one, would it have been enough? 27 00:01:46,125 --> 00:01:46,685 Speaker 3: Is he not going to? 28 00:01:47,324 --> 00:01:51,204 Speaker 1: And yeah, it went well, And I do treasure these movies. 29 00:01:51,405 --> 00:01:54,485 Speaker 1: I said a weird thing that made Debbie kind of 30 00:01:54,525 --> 00:01:56,805 Speaker 1: look at me a little bit like pause and do 31 00:01:56,925 --> 00:01:59,205 Speaker 1: that side eye to you that your spouse sometimes does. 32 00:01:59,445 --> 00:02:00,965 Speaker 1: I don't know how this came up, but I just 33 00:02:01,005 --> 00:02:03,045 Speaker 1: said the other day, you know, I think I can 34 00:02:03,125 --> 00:02:06,245 Speaker 1: see myself as a very old man just being happy 35 00:02:06,285 --> 00:02:10,405 Speaker 1: watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy on repeat. 36 00:02:09,765 --> 00:02:13,765 Speaker 2: And yes, and she was wondering who she might be 37 00:02:13,845 --> 00:02:15,885 Speaker 2: with at that point, or which she might be. 38 00:02:16,365 --> 00:02:18,805 Speaker 1: You're so right at him because she's not necessarily the 39 00:02:18,845 --> 00:02:20,965 Speaker 1: biggest fan. I don't even know why I said it. 40 00:02:21,285 --> 00:02:24,005 Speaker 1: I don't think I've watched these movies since we did 41 00:02:24,005 --> 00:02:27,165 Speaker 1: this revisit, so it's not like I'm an obsessive, but 42 00:02:27,285 --> 00:02:30,405 Speaker 1: there's something about them that has this hold on my imagination. 43 00:02:30,764 --> 00:02:34,005 Speaker 1: Maybe this review that we did will well a new 44 00:02:34,165 --> 00:02:37,805 Speaker 1: illuminate for me what that hold is because I know 45 00:02:37,924 --> 00:02:40,204 Speaker 1: that I didn't come to this review and say, actually 46 00:02:40,285 --> 00:02:40,764 Speaker 1: they stink. 47 00:02:42,484 --> 00:02:45,965 Speaker 2: We hope you'll find it illuminating. This Currently this year, 48 00:02:46,085 --> 00:02:49,045 Speaker 2: twenty twenty six marks the twenty fifth anniversary of the 49 00:02:49,085 --> 00:02:52,244 Speaker 2: first film in the series, The Fellowship of the Ring. 50 00:02:52,525 --> 00:02:54,685 Speaker 2: It was December two thousand and one, Josh, when that 51 00:02:54,764 --> 00:02:58,005 Speaker 2: movie came to theaters. And this episode did include our 52 00:02:58,005 --> 00:03:00,764 Speaker 2: top five Lord of the Ring scenes. Lots of options 53 00:03:00,805 --> 00:03:04,125 Speaker 2: to choose from. Apparently you'd have like fifty to choose from. 54 00:03:04,204 --> 00:03:06,365 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, you could spend some real cutting. 55 00:03:06,845 --> 00:03:08,685 Speaker 2: You could spend the rest of your life just choosing 56 00:03:08,725 --> 00:03:10,044 Speaker 2: new scenes that might. 57 00:03:09,885 --> 00:03:11,925 Speaker 3: Be might I might start tomorrow? 58 00:03:12,565 --> 00:03:15,685 Speaker 2: Okay from May twenty eighteen, here is that sacred Cow 59 00:03:15,764 --> 00:03:16,405 Speaker 2: review of the. 60 00:03:16,325 --> 00:03:17,685 Speaker 1: Lord of the Ring strategy. 61 00:03:19,325 --> 00:03:25,565 Speaker 2: Sure is this really happening, Josh? 62 00:03:25,725 --> 00:03:26,765 Speaker 1: It's been what's happening? 63 00:03:26,845 --> 00:03:31,165 Speaker 2: Fifteen years since Peter Jackson's hugely ambitious and hugely successful 64 00:03:31,204 --> 00:03:34,165 Speaker 2: Lord of the Rings trilogy reached its conclusion over two 65 00:03:34,245 --> 00:03:38,365 Speaker 2: billion dollars at the box office, thirty OSCAR nominations, seventeen wins, 66 00:03:38,445 --> 00:03:40,925 Speaker 2: including Best Picture and Best Director for the final chapter, 67 00:03:41,005 --> 00:03:43,725 Speaker 2: the Return of the King. Is that why we're devoting 68 00:03:43,845 --> 00:03:46,565 Speaker 2: the entirety of this week's show to a discussion of 69 00:03:46,605 --> 00:03:47,085 Speaker 2: the trilogy. 70 00:03:47,405 --> 00:03:49,405 Speaker 1: It should be enough, It should be think it would 71 00:03:49,405 --> 00:03:51,765 Speaker 1: be enough, But you needed a little more motivation. 72 00:03:51,605 --> 00:03:54,245 Speaker 2: Yes, and I got that in the form of next 73 00:03:54,325 --> 00:03:57,605 Speaker 2: year's film, Spotting Madness already planning. We know that at 74 00:03:57,645 --> 00:03:59,645 Speaker 2: least one of these films is going to make the 75 00:03:59,685 --> 00:04:03,765 Speaker 2: list best of the two thousands, and I had two 76 00:04:03,765 --> 00:04:06,285 Speaker 2: blind spots here I have only seen up until now. 77 00:04:06,325 --> 00:04:08,845 Speaker 2: I'd only seen The Fellowship of the Ring back in 78 00:04:08,845 --> 00:04:11,405 Speaker 2: two thousand and one when it hit theaters. I needed 79 00:04:11,645 --> 00:04:15,965 Speaker 2: to rectify that. So this is really more Blind Cow 80 00:04:16,125 --> 00:04:19,404 Speaker 2: than Sacred Cow. We're mixing the Sacred Cow and Blind Spotting. 81 00:04:19,445 --> 00:04:22,445 Speaker 2: You're gonna get that consideration of the trilogy, and later 82 00:04:22,445 --> 00:04:24,724 Speaker 2: in the show, we're gonna share our top five scenes 83 00:04:24,725 --> 00:04:28,525 Speaker 2: from Jackson's epic adaptation. I mentioned last week that I 84 00:04:28,565 --> 00:04:31,445 Speaker 2: was gonna need some help with the setup, mainly more 85 00:04:31,485 --> 00:04:35,685 Speaker 2: about timing. I knew, having watched over nine hours of 86 00:04:36,085 --> 00:04:38,205 Speaker 2: this trilogy that I was gonna have very little time 87 00:04:38,325 --> 00:04:42,125 Speaker 2: or energy leftover to craft something really brilliant. Just break 88 00:04:42,165 --> 00:04:45,125 Speaker 2: down these three films and give you the perfect framing question. 89 00:04:45,525 --> 00:04:48,565 Speaker 2: I needed listeners to help, and they came through, as 90 00:04:48,565 --> 00:04:51,525 Speaker 2: they always do. They're my Sam Wise gamgee, See, Josh, 91 00:04:51,605 --> 00:04:54,565 Speaker 2: I can play this game. We heard from it longtime 92 00:04:54,565 --> 00:04:58,485 Speaker 2: listener Eric Rokee in Miami. He says, I'm browsing letterbox 93 00:04:58,525 --> 00:05:00,645 Speaker 2: and I noticed that Josh is reviewing the Lord of 94 00:05:00,645 --> 00:05:02,364 Speaker 2: the Rings films, and he mentions that you will be 95 00:05:02,404 --> 00:05:05,724 Speaker 2: reconsidering those movies in the next episode. As a huge fan, 96 00:05:06,005 --> 00:05:09,684 Speaker 2: this understandably got me excited, and not for wholly unselfish reasons. 97 00:05:09,925 --> 00:05:11,725 Speaker 2: You may not remember, but years ago, there was an 98 00:05:11,725 --> 00:05:14,885 Speaker 2: episode where Adam and Sam Our current producer former co 99 00:05:14,964 --> 00:05:18,365 Speaker 2: host Sam van Holgen discussed the top five movie sidekicks. 100 00:05:18,565 --> 00:05:21,005 Speaker 2: Sam's done a little bit of editing here to this Josh. 101 00:05:21,284 --> 00:05:26,005 Speaker 2: Sam included redacted from redacted on his list, and neither 102 00:05:26,045 --> 00:05:28,485 Speaker 2: had Sean Aston. Sam Wise gamgee. 103 00:05:28,284 --> 00:05:29,964 Speaker 1: He's that embarrassed risk. 104 00:05:30,045 --> 00:05:31,844 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna have to hide that top five list 105 00:05:31,844 --> 00:05:34,565 Speaker 2: from the archive. Don't you do it? He swore me. 106 00:05:34,645 --> 00:05:35,685 Speaker 3: I'm looking right now. 107 00:05:36,685 --> 00:05:39,445 Speaker 2: Well, just don't share it. I shot off an email 108 00:05:39,525 --> 00:05:42,165 Speaker 2: bemoaning this fact and demanding that the list be rechristen. 109 00:05:42,565 --> 00:05:45,645 Speaker 2: The Samwise Gamgee Memorial list. I was excited when I 110 00:05:45,645 --> 00:05:47,805 Speaker 2: had my email read on the show, but was nonetheless 111 00:05:47,885 --> 00:05:50,405 Speaker 2: mocked for the suggestions. See jodsh you were missed. In 112 00:05:50,445 --> 00:05:53,085 Speaker 2: the early days of Film Spotting, Eric needed an ally 113 00:05:53,685 --> 00:05:56,325 Speaker 2: he didn't have one at the time. We fast forward 114 00:05:56,365 --> 00:05:58,525 Speaker 2: to now and here I am still a loyal listener. 115 00:05:58,645 --> 00:06:00,924 Speaker 2: I couldn't help but notice during Film Spotting Madness that 116 00:06:01,045 --> 00:06:04,484 Speaker 2: redacted was conspicuously absent from the bracket. And yet it 117 00:06:04,565 --> 00:06:06,485 Speaker 2: is already known that one of the Lord of the 118 00:06:06,565 --> 00:06:09,885 Speaker 2: ringstilms will be represented next year. I call that vindication. 119 00:06:10,245 --> 00:06:13,565 Speaker 2: No one remembers redacted, but Sam Wise lives on. I 120 00:06:13,645 --> 00:06:16,725 Speaker 2: await the on air apology. Kidding aside, I'm really curious 121 00:06:16,725 --> 00:06:18,685 Speaker 2: to hear your thoughts on the films. I already see 122 00:06:18,725 --> 00:06:20,805 Speaker 2: that Josh really enjoyed the first two, and I also 123 00:06:20,844 --> 00:06:23,045 Speaker 2: know that Adam will be watching Two Towers and Return 124 00:06:23,045 --> 00:06:24,725 Speaker 2: of the King for the first time. If I were 125 00:06:24,725 --> 00:06:27,165 Speaker 2: a betting man, I would predict that Adam will be 126 00:06:27,245 --> 00:06:30,965 Speaker 2: less enthusiastic about each successive entry in the trilogy. They 127 00:06:30,964 --> 00:06:33,604 Speaker 2: focus more on action and spectacle and seem to have 128 00:06:33,685 --> 00:06:36,685 Speaker 2: less character moments and world building than Fellowship. That's the 129 00:06:36,685 --> 00:06:39,085 Speaker 2: criticism I hear the most. While I think galam is 130 00:06:39,125 --> 00:06:40,885 Speaker 2: an exception to that argument, I do think it is 131 00:06:40,885 --> 00:06:43,245 Speaker 2: somewhat fair, and that is why Fellowship should be the 132 00:06:43,245 --> 00:06:46,525 Speaker 2: movie representing the trilogy. In film Spotting Madness twenty nineteen, 133 00:06:46,765 --> 00:06:49,405 Speaker 2: I would argue, however, that this trilogy is unique. It's 134 00:06:49,445 --> 00:06:51,925 Speaker 2: really one long film, and that isn't just a marketing gimmick. 135 00:06:51,964 --> 00:06:53,885 Speaker 2: They were filmed as one movie and the script was 136 00:06:53,885 --> 00:06:56,245 Speaker 2: written with this in mind. Two Towers and Return of 137 00:06:56,284 --> 00:06:58,445 Speaker 2: the King pick up right where its predecessor left off, 138 00:06:58,445 --> 00:07:00,404 Speaker 2: and the year in between releases were akin to a 139 00:07:00,404 --> 00:07:03,044 Speaker 2: long intermission, and Eric is certainly right on all those counts. 140 00:07:03,165 --> 00:07:05,325 Speaker 2: So I would argue that all the important character work 141 00:07:05,365 --> 00:07:07,325 Speaker 2: for parts two and three are there in part one, 142 00:07:07,485 --> 00:07:09,845 Speaker 2: since they are in a sense the same film. Likewise, 143 00:07:09,885 --> 00:07:12,125 Speaker 2: the off my line multiple endings of Return of the 144 00:07:12,205 --> 00:07:14,765 Speaker 2: King are somewhat justified because they are wrapping up a 145 00:07:14,845 --> 00:07:17,405 Speaker 2: nine point five hour epic, not just that third movie. 146 00:07:17,605 --> 00:07:20,205 Speaker 2: But maybe Adam will say he liked all three. I 147 00:07:20,325 --> 00:07:23,605 Speaker 2: eagerly away we're gonna find out how much I enjoyed 148 00:07:23,725 --> 00:07:26,285 Speaker 2: or didn't enjoy these films In a moment, but a 149 00:07:26,285 --> 00:07:28,325 Speaker 2: little bit more listener feedback here. 150 00:07:28,445 --> 00:07:30,445 Speaker 1: First of all, I think Sam already got to the 151 00:07:30,685 --> 00:07:32,325 Speaker 1: archives because I don't see it. 152 00:07:32,445 --> 00:07:34,205 Speaker 2: You can't find out and I'm even on the old 153 00:07:34,245 --> 00:07:36,925 Speaker 2: site and you can't find and O wow, yeah, Sammy works. 154 00:07:37,005 --> 00:07:40,125 Speaker 2: He was that embarrassed he had to get rid of it. 155 00:07:40,445 --> 00:07:43,205 Speaker 2: Peterson Hill in Atlanta sent us this. 156 00:07:43,445 --> 00:07:46,005 Speaker 4: Hello, film spotting. This is Peterson Hill calling in from Atlanta, 157 00:07:46,045 --> 00:07:47,765 Speaker 4: Georgia to share my thoughts on the Lord of the 158 00:07:47,805 --> 00:07:50,685 Speaker 4: Rings trilogy. Series of films that I enjoy and appreciate, 159 00:07:50,725 --> 00:07:52,725 Speaker 4: but I probably don't love as much as some other people. 160 00:07:53,245 --> 00:07:56,525 Speaker 4: But I do think I understand why they're so culturally relevant. 161 00:07:56,685 --> 00:07:59,205 Speaker 4: I think it's down to the heart that fell us 162 00:07:59,205 --> 00:08:02,325 Speaker 4: about the Ring premiere just after September eleventh, when our 163 00:08:02,365 --> 00:08:06,925 Speaker 4: country was really suffering through an identity crisis and a 164 00:08:06,965 --> 00:08:10,165 Speaker 4: loss of faith, a loss of hope, and Peter Jackson's 165 00:08:10,165 --> 00:08:12,765 Speaker 4: film comes along with a sense of moral directness and 166 00:08:12,885 --> 00:08:18,125 Speaker 4: moral certitude that really red shirt with audiences then and 167 00:08:18,165 --> 00:08:20,765 Speaker 4: now here we are seventeen years later, and our country's 168 00:08:20,805 --> 00:08:25,845 Speaker 4: acts the same questions again, maybe amplified at this point, 169 00:08:26,525 --> 00:08:29,965 Speaker 4: and there's a sense of chaos that we can't control anymore. 170 00:08:30,285 --> 00:08:33,965 Speaker 4: When Peter Jackson's film states that the smallest of things 171 00:08:33,965 --> 00:08:37,485 Speaker 4: can make the biggest differences, I think that people really 172 00:08:37,925 --> 00:08:42,525 Speaker 4: latched onto that. So now the question becomes, will these 173 00:08:42,525 --> 00:08:47,285 Speaker 4: films age so well because of that moral directness and 174 00:08:47,325 --> 00:08:49,925 Speaker 4: that moral certitude or will they fall by the wayside 175 00:08:49,925 --> 00:08:52,205 Speaker 4: at some point? I think they're going to age well, 176 00:08:52,245 --> 00:08:54,045 Speaker 4: but I'd love to hear what your guys' thoughts are. 177 00:08:54,485 --> 00:08:57,125 Speaker 2: Thank you Peterson for that. If you were a betting man, Josh, 178 00:08:57,205 --> 00:09:00,405 Speaker 2: would you also guess that I got less enthusiastic about 179 00:09:00,405 --> 00:09:03,365 Speaker 2: each successive entry? And how do you rank them? But 180 00:09:03,405 --> 00:09:06,605 Speaker 2: more importantly, what is it about these movies that so 181 00:09:06,765 --> 00:09:10,325 Speaker 2: connects and resonates with you personally but with so many others? 182 00:09:10,525 --> 00:09:12,565 Speaker 2: Is Peterson wright that it has something to do with 183 00:09:12,564 --> 00:09:15,885 Speaker 2: an appetite, a desperation perhaps for moral clarity post nine 184 00:09:15,885 --> 00:09:18,325 Speaker 2: to eleven and today? Or is it in fact the 185 00:09:18,365 --> 00:09:22,125 Speaker 2: timelessness of Tolkien's original material, the universe sality of its themes, 186 00:09:22,165 --> 00:09:26,005 Speaker 2: and Jackson's sweeping, skillful rendering of the spectacle, This somehow 187 00:09:26,045 --> 00:09:29,605 Speaker 2: manages to still often feel small intimately. 188 00:09:29,965 --> 00:09:34,005 Speaker 1: So, yes, my expectation is you did grow weary as 189 00:09:34,045 --> 00:09:37,165 Speaker 1: the series went on, though I also trying to watch 190 00:09:37,165 --> 00:09:39,165 Speaker 1: it this time partly through your eyes. Think that there's 191 00:09:39,725 --> 00:09:42,045 Speaker 1: a lot here that probably did resonate with you, and 192 00:09:42,085 --> 00:09:43,405 Speaker 1: hopefully we'll get to that. 193 00:09:43,405 --> 00:09:44,485 Speaker 3: That's my expectation, though. 194 00:09:44,485 --> 00:09:48,085 Speaker 1: In terms of ranking, I think these are very even, 195 00:09:48,605 --> 00:09:51,324 Speaker 1: partly for the reasons we've heard, the way they were envisioned, 196 00:09:51,804 --> 00:09:55,525 Speaker 1: the level of control exhibited by all the filmmakers. So 197 00:09:55,885 --> 00:10:01,085 Speaker 1: ranking for me is kind of a ridiculous exercise. I'll 198 00:10:01,085 --> 00:10:04,564 Speaker 1: say this indulgently. When they first came out, I had 199 00:10:04,564 --> 00:10:08,685 Speaker 1: put two Towers as my least favorite of the three. Again, 200 00:10:08,885 --> 00:10:10,405 Speaker 1: I think all three of them might have made my 201 00:10:10,445 --> 00:10:11,885 Speaker 1: top ten lists of those years. 202 00:10:11,925 --> 00:10:12,845 Speaker 3: So you know this is. 203 00:10:12,845 --> 00:10:16,165 Speaker 1: Quibbling this watch. I'd switch that with Return of the King, 204 00:10:16,285 --> 00:10:19,005 Speaker 1: I think. I mean it was a matter of weariness 205 00:10:19,045 --> 00:10:21,684 Speaker 1: for me. Just some other issues include that ending that 206 00:10:21,725 --> 00:10:23,365 Speaker 1: was mentioned that maybe we can get to as well. 207 00:10:23,925 --> 00:10:27,165 Speaker 1: For the larger question why does this resonate? I do 208 00:10:27,245 --> 00:10:31,205 Speaker 1: think Peterson is onto something. I think you could attribute 209 00:10:31,245 --> 00:10:34,965 Speaker 1: it to the particular timing, but really the themes explored 210 00:10:35,045 --> 00:10:41,324 Speaker 1: here and these ideas of good versus evil are timeless. Right, 211 00:10:41,365 --> 00:10:44,885 Speaker 1: this is going to be stuff that the Greek myths 212 00:10:44,885 --> 00:10:48,684 Speaker 1: were interested in that you know, Homer was interested. I mean, 213 00:10:48,845 --> 00:10:50,525 Speaker 1: this is stuff that does not go away. 214 00:10:50,564 --> 00:10:52,125 Speaker 3: It's what we live with, it's who we are. 215 00:10:52,485 --> 00:10:54,844 Speaker 1: I'd also argue it resonates because it's not quite as 216 00:10:54,925 --> 00:10:58,165 Speaker 1: simple as that. And one of the most compelling undercurrents 217 00:10:58,245 --> 00:11:02,845 Speaker 1: is this idea of temptation and evil being within and 218 00:11:03,085 --> 00:11:07,245 Speaker 1: the same figure being capable of great good and awfulness. 219 00:11:07,285 --> 00:11:09,045 Speaker 1: I think, you know, that's one thing that the Star 220 00:11:09,125 --> 00:11:11,325 Speaker 1: Wars films aren't given enough credit for, even though that's the. 221 00:11:11,205 --> 00:11:13,325 Speaker 3: Heart of them. With the sugar of Darth Vader. So 222 00:11:13,325 --> 00:11:14,205 Speaker 3: they are very. 223 00:11:14,205 --> 00:11:20,365 Speaker 1: Similar reasons why these movies hold a wide appeal for people, 224 00:11:20,564 --> 00:11:23,285 Speaker 1: not only in that particular time, but going forward. 225 00:11:23,645 --> 00:11:24,525 Speaker 3: I would argue that the. 226 00:11:24,564 --> 00:11:28,285 Speaker 1: Quality of them is why they will hold up as well. 227 00:11:28,325 --> 00:11:30,845 Speaker 1: It's not just that they have these universal, timeless themes, 228 00:11:31,245 --> 00:11:35,804 Speaker 1: but that they're told so expertly. Yes, there are moments 229 00:11:35,845 --> 00:11:38,564 Speaker 1: where you could tell these films are fifteen to eighteen 230 00:11:38,645 --> 00:11:41,525 Speaker 1: years old now, but I don't think those were glaring exams. 231 00:11:41,804 --> 00:11:43,804 Speaker 2: Mainly the special effects, Yeah. 232 00:11:43,645 --> 00:11:46,885 Speaker 1: You know, special effects or even tone or things that 233 00:11:46,925 --> 00:11:49,525 Speaker 1: and that varies right where what will register in one 234 00:11:49,525 --> 00:11:52,845 Speaker 1: era as camp will register in another era as earnestness. 235 00:11:53,925 --> 00:11:57,285 Speaker 3: I think these again, because they chose to go. 236 00:11:57,445 --> 00:12:00,604 Speaker 1: Earnest with this material, I think that allows them to 237 00:12:00,605 --> 00:12:02,324 Speaker 1: hold up a little bit better than if they winked 238 00:12:02,325 --> 00:12:03,045 Speaker 1: at it more. 239 00:12:04,125 --> 00:12:05,525 Speaker 3: But we'll we'll see what you thought. 240 00:12:05,605 --> 00:12:08,405 Speaker 1: I am very curious to hear you know, knowing that 241 00:12:08,445 --> 00:12:09,885 Speaker 1: you did like Fellowship. 242 00:12:09,405 --> 00:12:10,885 Speaker 2: Yeah, I did. Why it came out in two thousand 243 00:12:10,885 --> 00:12:11,084 Speaker 2: and one? 244 00:12:11,085 --> 00:12:13,684 Speaker 1: Had your fill at that point? It seems otherwise you 245 00:12:13,725 --> 00:12:15,685 Speaker 1: would have go to these other movies. 246 00:12:15,405 --> 00:12:17,525 Speaker 2: Right, Rabbit movies, or at least the Hobbit, because I 247 00:12:17,525 --> 00:12:17,925 Speaker 2: don't think. 248 00:12:17,845 --> 00:12:19,845 Speaker 1: I ever watched the technod encourage you. They did not 249 00:12:19,925 --> 00:12:22,725 Speaker 1: encourage you to go back to them. But now that 250 00:12:22,804 --> 00:12:24,205 Speaker 1: you have, Yeah, what'd you think? 251 00:12:25,405 --> 00:12:28,045 Speaker 2: How am I supposed to let go? For years, I've 252 00:12:28,085 --> 00:12:31,925 Speaker 2: carried the burden of being the dull, unimaginative one, the 253 00:12:32,045 --> 00:12:34,324 Speaker 2: lord of the rings hater. I wore it so long, 254 00:12:34,445 --> 00:12:37,685 Speaker 2: Josh I came to embrace it. It became part of 255 00:12:37,684 --> 00:12:41,804 Speaker 2: my identity forever, parodying my patron, Saint Clerk's Randall Graves. 256 00:12:42,085 --> 00:12:44,405 Speaker 2: There's only one return, okay, and it ain't of the king. 257 00:12:44,485 --> 00:12:47,325 Speaker 2: It's of the Jedi. Three movies of people walking to 258 00:12:47,365 --> 00:12:50,885 Speaker 2: an effing volcano. That's been my mantra now for ten 259 00:12:50,925 --> 00:12:52,645 Speaker 2: plus years. And what am I supposed to do now? 260 00:12:52,684 --> 00:12:57,165 Speaker 2: Just forsake those jokes like dene Thor rebuking Pheromir. I'm 261 00:12:57,165 --> 00:13:00,525 Speaker 2: not ready, Josh huh, I'm not ready for it. But 262 00:13:01,245 --> 00:13:03,005 Speaker 2: I liked all three of these movies. Yeah, they're good. 263 00:13:03,045 --> 00:13:04,444 Speaker 2: I liked all three of them quite a bit. 264 00:13:04,525 --> 00:13:05,565 Speaker 3: Might we say they're great? 265 00:13:06,165 --> 00:13:09,565 Speaker 2: They're close? Yeah, yeah, they're certainly close, if not great. 266 00:13:09,605 --> 00:13:12,885 Speaker 2: And for the record, I threw out on Twitter just 267 00:13:12,925 --> 00:13:15,325 Speaker 2: about forty eight hours ago at this point, which Lord 268 00:13:15,325 --> 00:13:18,604 Speaker 2: of the Rings movie is the best? And I was 269 00:13:18,684 --> 00:13:21,725 Speaker 2: kind of surprised. Maybe I put too much stock in 270 00:13:22,405 --> 00:13:24,685 Speaker 2: Return of the King being the Oscar winning one, and 271 00:13:24,725 --> 00:13:26,805 Speaker 2: I do think that's a case. And someone commented on this, 272 00:13:26,885 --> 00:13:30,645 Speaker 2: but I think it's probably attributable to it being the 273 00:13:30,765 --> 00:13:33,405 Speaker 2: culminating Femi. So it was an achievement. It was a 274 00:13:33,445 --> 00:13:35,885 Speaker 2: crowning of all three of the films in the trilogy 275 00:13:35,965 --> 00:13:36,645 Speaker 2: versus that one. 276 00:13:36,725 --> 00:13:39,405 Speaker 1: It was like a career honoring Oscar a set of movies. 277 00:13:39,485 --> 00:13:41,205 Speaker 2: But I thought, for whatever reason, I had it in 278 00:13:41,205 --> 00:13:44,045 Speaker 2: my head that that was the one all movie geeks 279 00:13:44,125 --> 00:13:46,205 Speaker 2: or Lord of the Rings Geeks pointed to as the 280 00:13:46,245 --> 00:13:49,605 Speaker 2: best one, and at least among our listeners on Twitter, 281 00:13:49,645 --> 00:13:52,805 Speaker 2: forty five percent had fellowship. Then they went next to 282 00:13:52,925 --> 00:13:55,405 Speaker 2: thirty one percent the Two Towers and twenty four percent 283 00:13:55,485 --> 00:13:57,885 Speaker 2: said Return of the King one of the real thrills 284 00:13:57,925 --> 00:14:00,485 Speaker 2: for me watching these films. So few of the movies 285 00:14:00,525 --> 00:14:01,804 Speaker 2: we get to watch her in the show I can 286 00:14:01,845 --> 00:14:04,645 Speaker 2: actually watch with my kids, and I was able to 287 00:14:04,645 --> 00:14:06,724 Speaker 2: watch this with my three boys. Sophie didn't really care. 288 00:14:07,085 --> 00:14:09,725 Speaker 2: Sophie and listeners may remember this. It was a while back. 289 00:14:10,725 --> 00:14:13,005 Speaker 2: She was only seven or eight, and I don't even 290 00:14:13,005 --> 00:14:15,005 Speaker 2: remember what segment of the show I shared this in, 291 00:14:15,045 --> 00:14:17,724 Speaker 2: but just proving that the apple doesn't fall far from 292 00:14:17,765 --> 00:14:21,165 Speaker 2: the tree. She had to write in an analysis of 293 00:14:21,325 --> 00:14:24,805 Speaker 2: the Hobbit, and at conference time her teacher shared that 294 00:14:24,845 --> 00:14:28,965 Speaker 2: with us, and she was even more cynical and upbraiding 295 00:14:29,005 --> 00:14:31,525 Speaker 2: than Randall from Clerks to us. So she wasn't on board. 296 00:14:31,525 --> 00:14:33,005 Speaker 2: But I'm like, I'm gonna watch this with the three 297 00:14:33,005 --> 00:14:35,205 Speaker 2: boys and we'll see if Connor, the youngest, who's seven 298 00:14:35,445 --> 00:14:37,845 Speaker 2: about to be eight, if he is into it, because 299 00:14:37,845 --> 00:14:40,405 Speaker 2: he's usually into anything that the two older boys are 300 00:14:40,405 --> 00:14:44,125 Speaker 2: in Sure, he lasted about forty five minutes with Fellowship, 301 00:14:44,325 --> 00:14:46,325 Speaker 2: and he'd pop in and out through other films, but 302 00:14:46,405 --> 00:14:48,685 Speaker 2: I just think it was too much for him, a 303 00:14:48,685 --> 00:14:52,485 Speaker 2: little bit overwhelming. Quinn and Holden, though, really also enjoyed 304 00:14:52,485 --> 00:14:55,805 Speaker 2: these films, and Quinn finally fell asleep one night as 305 00:14:55,845 --> 00:14:57,845 Speaker 2: Return was finishing. He was going to do it on 306 00:14:57,845 --> 00:15:00,245 Speaker 2: his own the next day. So Holden and I finished 307 00:15:00,245 --> 00:15:02,725 Speaker 2: that film. We finished the trilogy, and I said, okay, 308 00:15:02,765 --> 00:15:04,205 Speaker 2: how do you rank them? Which one was your favorite? 309 00:15:04,245 --> 00:15:06,605 Speaker 2: He said, well, it would have to be not best 310 00:15:06,645 --> 00:15:10,565 Speaker 2: to worst, but best to least best. I said, okay, 311 00:15:10,605 --> 00:15:12,485 Speaker 2: fair enough, because obviously he was also into them. 312 00:15:12,525 --> 00:15:13,645 Speaker 3: I think that's how I think about it. 313 00:15:13,725 --> 00:15:17,845 Speaker 2: He went the Two Towers, Return of the King, and 314 00:15:17,885 --> 00:15:22,045 Speaker 2: Fellowship last, and guess what I with him, Okay, yeah, 315 00:15:22,045 --> 00:15:25,604 Speaker 2: that's also how I would rank the three films. Fellowship 316 00:15:25,605 --> 00:15:29,565 Speaker 2: for me, I think is obviously more exposition. It's more introduction. 317 00:15:29,925 --> 00:15:31,885 Speaker 2: As much as I love Kate Blanchett's voice, and I 318 00:15:31,965 --> 00:15:35,045 Speaker 2: know this is probably heresy, part of me really thinks 319 00:15:35,085 --> 00:15:37,604 Speaker 2: the opening might have been a little bit more intriguing 320 00:15:37,725 --> 00:15:44,125 Speaker 2: and successful overall. If that prologue actually didn't have that voice, 321 00:15:44,245 --> 00:15:46,565 Speaker 2: and all of that talking and all of the backstory 322 00:15:46,925 --> 00:15:49,685 Speaker 2: made it made it clear to us by seeing that 323 00:15:49,725 --> 00:15:52,765 Speaker 2: play out, by seeing il Sidor, is that the King 324 00:15:52,845 --> 00:15:55,365 Speaker 2: look at you? I think it's Ilsidor, right, And seeing 325 00:15:55,365 --> 00:15:57,165 Speaker 2: that whole thing play out with Saarron. I don't know 326 00:15:57,205 --> 00:16:00,285 Speaker 2: that we needed the narration to tell us what was 327 00:16:00,325 --> 00:16:02,205 Speaker 2: going on as much. I think there probably would have 328 00:16:02,205 --> 00:16:03,805 Speaker 2: been a way for it to be clear enough but 329 00:16:03,885 --> 00:16:06,245 Speaker 2: also still a little bit mysterious, something we really thought 330 00:16:06,285 --> 00:16:08,725 Speaker 2: about and haunted us as we watched the rest of 331 00:16:08,765 --> 00:16:11,645 Speaker 2: the film. I do, I do recognize completely the challenge 332 00:16:11,645 --> 00:16:13,845 Speaker 2: of that, yeah, right, the material and information they have 333 00:16:13,925 --> 00:16:14,525 Speaker 2: to wade through. 334 00:16:14,605 --> 00:16:16,925 Speaker 1: And that's one thing question I had, because I'm often 335 00:16:16,965 --> 00:16:20,845 Speaker 1: critical of mythologies, right when when movies begin with the 336 00:16:21,245 --> 00:16:23,925 Speaker 1: ornate mythologies that make me just kind of slump in 337 00:16:23,965 --> 00:16:26,285 Speaker 1: my seat, and I thought, maybe that's something I've just 338 00:16:26,365 --> 00:16:28,605 Speaker 1: gotten sick of, and is it going to strike me 339 00:16:28,645 --> 00:16:31,645 Speaker 1: this way when I go back in its defense, Well, 340 00:16:31,725 --> 00:16:34,885 Speaker 1: number one, it's drawing directly from a source material novel, 341 00:16:34,925 --> 00:16:37,165 Speaker 1: so there's a richness there that it's drawing from. But also, 342 00:16:37,605 --> 00:16:38,885 Speaker 1: and this is one of the things I thought might 343 00:16:38,885 --> 00:16:42,565 Speaker 1: appeal to you. This is very much a story about storytelling, yes, 344 00:16:42,805 --> 00:16:47,365 Speaker 1: and so that through line starting it that way made 345 00:16:47,405 --> 00:16:49,205 Speaker 1: sense particularly for this tale for me. 346 00:16:49,365 --> 00:16:51,565 Speaker 2: Now I can see that, I think as well. There 347 00:16:51,645 --> 00:16:56,005 Speaker 2: is a certain redundancy for me in the journey where 348 00:16:56,645 --> 00:16:59,605 Speaker 2: they just are consistently stepping out of one really terrible 349 00:16:59,645 --> 00:17:02,325 Speaker 2: situation that they somehow manage to survive, and they get 350 00:17:02,365 --> 00:17:04,285 Speaker 2: a little bit of a respite, and then they're back 351 00:17:04,325 --> 00:17:08,085 Speaker 2: into another very similar type of terrible situation and fellowship, 352 00:17:08,125 --> 00:17:09,965 Speaker 2: I guess, And I like the film quite a bit. 353 00:17:10,045 --> 00:17:12,045 Speaker 2: I think though the reason I put it just behind 354 00:17:12,085 --> 00:17:15,125 Speaker 2: the others is the way it handles that storytelling and 355 00:17:15,165 --> 00:17:17,085 Speaker 2: the structure, and I guess the efficiency of it, for 356 00:17:17,165 --> 00:17:19,645 Speaker 2: lack of a better word, Towers really was for me 357 00:17:19,765 --> 00:17:22,165 Speaker 2: a little bit more satisfying, I think, and how skillfully 358 00:17:22,765 --> 00:17:27,285 Speaker 2: we cross cut between the different quests we have Frodo 359 00:17:27,445 --> 00:17:31,205 Speaker 2: and Sam obviously on their separate journey. I do note, however, 360 00:17:31,285 --> 00:17:33,925 Speaker 2: that we go a long period of time about halfway 361 00:17:33,925 --> 00:17:35,965 Speaker 2: through where we don't see Froto and Sam for a while. 362 00:17:36,045 --> 00:17:39,285 Speaker 1: So that goes to my original ranking when I reviewed these, 363 00:17:39,605 --> 00:17:42,165 Speaker 1: which I don't feel strongly about, but I basically knocked 364 00:17:42,205 --> 00:17:43,845 Speaker 1: it down because I wanted more Frodo. 365 00:17:43,965 --> 00:17:47,365 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I actually I like Eric, Gorn 366 00:17:47,405 --> 00:17:49,885 Speaker 2: and the other characters more than Frodo, so that didn't 367 00:17:49,925 --> 00:17:53,125 Speaker 2: really bother me as much from just a narrative structure standpoint. 368 00:17:53,165 --> 00:17:55,085 Speaker 2: It did stick out to me and distracted me a 369 00:17:55,085 --> 00:17:57,365 Speaker 2: little bit, But I think up until that point, until 370 00:17:57,365 --> 00:18:00,925 Speaker 2: I really started to notice their absence, I actually really 371 00:18:01,005 --> 00:18:03,445 Speaker 2: loved the way it was cutting between those stories, not 372 00:18:03,525 --> 00:18:06,565 Speaker 2: only Frodo and sam er Gorn and Legolas and Gimli, 373 00:18:06,605 --> 00:18:09,885 Speaker 2: but also Mary and Pippin. We get Gandalf's return, which 374 00:18:09,925 --> 00:18:13,005 Speaker 2: is of course wonderful. The new characters we meet, I 375 00:18:13,045 --> 00:18:18,005 Speaker 2: really enjoyed Feodin, Pheramir, and especially Aowen who Miranda Otto 376 00:18:18,125 --> 00:18:20,085 Speaker 2: is just wonderful and we'll probably talk more about her, 377 00:18:20,125 --> 00:18:22,165 Speaker 2: if not during this segment when we get to our 378 00:18:22,205 --> 00:18:25,525 Speaker 2: top five. Yes, there are skirmishes along the way, but 379 00:18:25,685 --> 00:18:29,325 Speaker 2: rather than following that exact type of structure, it all 380 00:18:29,365 --> 00:18:32,605 Speaker 2: builds to that big battle at Helm's Deep. So for me, 381 00:18:32,725 --> 00:18:34,325 Speaker 2: I think that's why I ranked two towers just a 382 00:18:34,365 --> 00:18:35,285 Speaker 2: little bit fair. 383 00:18:35,125 --> 00:18:38,165 Speaker 1: To say, of the three, it's the most Shakespearean or 384 00:18:38,205 --> 00:18:41,005 Speaker 1: has the Shakespearean echoes, you know, the burden of Kings 385 00:18:41,565 --> 00:18:44,045 Speaker 1: and the language plays are. 386 00:18:44,085 --> 00:18:45,605 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, so I did. 387 00:18:45,725 --> 00:18:47,125 Speaker 1: If I had to guess, I would have guessed two 388 00:18:47,125 --> 00:18:49,205 Speaker 1: towers would be the one that won you over. So 389 00:18:49,285 --> 00:18:52,205 Speaker 1: that's that's good to hear. So, yeah, I did you 390 00:18:52,245 --> 00:18:55,525 Speaker 1: know I watched this. I don't normally do this. I 391 00:18:55,565 --> 00:18:57,965 Speaker 1: wait till we get together and you know, find out 392 00:18:57,965 --> 00:19:00,685 Speaker 1: what you thought. But I did watch these again, thinking 393 00:19:01,645 --> 00:19:03,925 Speaker 1: now that I know you fairly well, I wonder how 394 00:19:03,965 --> 00:19:06,565 Speaker 1: this is going over and it's it's like, you know, 395 00:19:06,725 --> 00:19:10,045 Speaker 1: the ents, the walking tree guards at the oh boy, 396 00:19:10,645 --> 00:19:13,405 Speaker 1: I don't know, conflicted, and we don't have to get 397 00:19:13,445 --> 00:19:16,045 Speaker 1: into the ends, but there were moments where I was like, really, like, 398 00:19:16,765 --> 00:19:20,005 Speaker 1: my kids loved the ends, Okay, yeah, I love so 399 00:19:20,125 --> 00:19:21,685 Speaker 1: general rule I and this has to do with the 400 00:19:21,685 --> 00:19:25,285 Speaker 1: special effects. They don't hold up well. Whenever a human 401 00:19:25,725 --> 00:19:27,285 Speaker 1: is riding something, for. 402 00:19:27,285 --> 00:19:29,965 Speaker 2: The most part, that's almost universally true. 403 00:19:30,045 --> 00:19:32,525 Speaker 1: And the ents, if you just look at them, are 404 00:19:32,645 --> 00:19:37,685 Speaker 1: intricately designed and really quite beautiful and spooky. But whenever 405 00:19:37,725 --> 00:19:42,245 Speaker 1: Mary and Pip and are riding on true Beard's shoulders out. 406 00:19:42,485 --> 00:19:44,325 Speaker 1: So anyways, I was I was thinking about, you know, 407 00:19:44,365 --> 00:19:47,165 Speaker 1: how's Adam taking this, And I didn't want it to be, 408 00:19:47,565 --> 00:19:51,765 Speaker 1: as you said, like the unimaginative guy who's But I 409 00:19:51,805 --> 00:19:56,205 Speaker 1: do think it's it's revealing of what we're looking for 410 00:19:56,285 --> 00:19:59,445 Speaker 1: when we go to movies and what stimulates us. And 411 00:19:59,765 --> 00:20:02,925 Speaker 1: it struck me that, you know, why might fantasy in 412 00:20:02,965 --> 00:20:05,005 Speaker 1: general not be your bag? Though it's great to hear 413 00:20:05,085 --> 00:20:07,325 Speaker 1: that that you know you did appreciate these, it might 414 00:20:07,365 --> 00:20:08,885 Speaker 1: come down to the fact that, you know, some of 415 00:20:08,925 --> 00:20:11,165 Speaker 1: us go to the movies to have our intellect tickled. 416 00:20:11,685 --> 00:20:13,645 Speaker 1: Some of us go to the movies too, have our 417 00:20:14,045 --> 00:20:16,525 Speaker 1: imaginations ignited. And it doesn't have to be one or 418 00:20:16,525 --> 00:20:19,045 Speaker 1: the other. And it's not a matter of what is 419 00:20:19,045 --> 00:20:21,685 Speaker 1: the better art, right, It's it's more of how we're 420 00:20:21,725 --> 00:20:25,005 Speaker 1: wired and what sort of art resonates with us. So 421 00:20:25,765 --> 00:20:28,325 Speaker 1: maybe fantasy at a certain point doesn't do it for you. 422 00:20:28,405 --> 00:20:31,045 Speaker 1: I think this is maybe why I have my limitations 423 00:20:31,045 --> 00:20:37,365 Speaker 1: with Steven Soderberg, because he's forced and foremost intellectualizing cinema, right, 424 00:20:37,405 --> 00:20:41,805 Speaker 1: and it's genres, it's it's forms, and at a certain point, 425 00:20:41,925 --> 00:20:43,925 Speaker 1: you know that that becomes a little boring for me. 426 00:20:44,205 --> 00:20:45,165 Speaker 3: So some of that's difference. 427 00:20:45,165 --> 00:20:46,565 Speaker 2: That's a distinction between us. 428 00:20:46,685 --> 00:20:49,885 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's fair. And so it's again, these 429 00:20:50,005 --> 00:20:52,484 Speaker 1: lines aren't hard and fast. I don't mean to suggest 430 00:20:52,485 --> 00:20:55,565 Speaker 1: here that Lord of the Rings is bereft of ideas. 431 00:20:55,605 --> 00:20:57,765 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot here about power and temptation 432 00:20:57,845 --> 00:21:00,005 Speaker 1: and that sort of stuff. I just think that above all, 433 00:21:00,125 --> 00:21:04,405 Speaker 1: it stimulates the imagination. And when you take these all together, 434 00:21:04,605 --> 00:21:06,885 Speaker 1: this is the first time I've I've really done something 435 00:21:07,565 --> 00:21:09,325 Speaker 1: like this. I remember back when I was with a 436 00:21:09,365 --> 00:21:13,525 Speaker 1: Naperville son, a colleague convinced me to try this in 437 00:21:13,965 --> 00:21:15,525 Speaker 1: might have been one day, I don't remember. 438 00:21:15,525 --> 00:21:16,925 Speaker 3: If we made it through all. 439 00:21:16,925 --> 00:21:18,484 Speaker 1: Of them, this would have been not long after they 440 00:21:18,525 --> 00:21:20,365 Speaker 1: all came out. But this is the first time in 441 00:21:20,405 --> 00:21:23,165 Speaker 1: a long time I've sat down and watched them closely together. 442 00:21:23,205 --> 00:21:26,205 Speaker 1: And I think, taken together, they really are a masterpiece 443 00:21:26,205 --> 00:21:28,605 Speaker 1: of the fantasy art form. And if your brain is 444 00:21:28,645 --> 00:21:33,045 Speaker 1: wired that way and imagination is what you want to experience, 445 00:21:34,365 --> 00:21:36,525 Speaker 1: these are just really going to work for you. And 446 00:21:36,565 --> 00:21:39,085 Speaker 1: I came looking at my old reviews of these, I 447 00:21:39,085 --> 00:21:43,445 Speaker 1: came across this quote from Fellowship. This is Tolkien describing 448 00:21:43,445 --> 00:21:47,485 Speaker 1: a character listening to elves sing almost it seemed that 449 00:21:47,525 --> 00:21:50,805 Speaker 1: the words took shape, and visions of firelands and bright 450 00:21:50,845 --> 00:21:54,525 Speaker 1: things that he had never yet imagined open out before him. 451 00:21:54,885 --> 00:21:56,885 Speaker 1: And I think that's what Lord of the Rings. They 452 00:21:56,925 --> 00:22:00,485 Speaker 1: do that for me beautifully in particularly cinematic ways. You know, 453 00:22:00,525 --> 00:22:02,805 Speaker 1: things that I experienced reading those books as a kid, 454 00:22:03,405 --> 00:22:07,205 Speaker 1: Now it's happening for me again cinematically. And so it was, 455 00:22:07,725 --> 00:22:09,565 Speaker 1: you know, as much a relief to hear that you 456 00:22:09,605 --> 00:22:11,885 Speaker 1: appreciated them, a relief for me to find out that 457 00:22:11,925 --> 00:22:14,885 Speaker 1: they do still hold off. Yeah, because I love these 458 00:22:14,885 --> 00:22:16,085 Speaker 1: when they came out. 459 00:22:16,285 --> 00:22:19,565 Speaker 2: You know, this question that we started with about the 460 00:22:19,685 --> 00:22:23,405 Speaker 2: universality or the timelessness of them, this is something that's 461 00:22:23,405 --> 00:22:25,285 Speaker 2: come up recently, I know on a few lists I've done, 462 00:22:25,325 --> 00:22:28,525 Speaker 2: And even going back to my review or our discussion 463 00:22:28,565 --> 00:22:30,645 Speaker 2: of Paul Thomas Anderson's and Hero and Wece, I remember 464 00:22:30,685 --> 00:22:33,085 Speaker 2: talking about how is very easy for us to look 465 00:22:33,085 --> 00:22:36,645 Speaker 2: at any time period in American history we tend to glorify, 466 00:22:36,725 --> 00:22:38,965 Speaker 2: maybe the loss of innocence of Watergate. We talk about 467 00:22:38,965 --> 00:22:41,685 Speaker 2: the arrow we're living in right now, but really, when 468 00:22:41,725 --> 00:22:43,965 Speaker 2: you think about it, every decade has its crisis, Every 469 00:22:43,965 --> 00:22:47,445 Speaker 2: decade has its own version of conflict where I'm sure 470 00:22:47,485 --> 00:22:50,165 Speaker 2: the people living through it felt like it was the 471 00:22:50,245 --> 00:22:53,205 Speaker 2: end of the world, so to speak. And I do think, 472 00:22:53,245 --> 00:22:55,325 Speaker 2: of course, you can make a case that the time 473 00:22:55,325 --> 00:22:57,205 Speaker 2: we're in right now is maybe just a little bit 474 00:22:57,325 --> 00:23:00,005 Speaker 2: up a notch, just a little bit crazier. But that said, 475 00:23:00,085 --> 00:23:02,845 Speaker 2: I think we are always, to some extent going through 476 00:23:02,845 --> 00:23:06,765 Speaker 2: strife and turmoil, and these conflicts are cyclical. And I 477 00:23:06,805 --> 00:23:09,085 Speaker 2: have not read anything about these movies at all, or 478 00:23:09,205 --> 00:23:11,405 Speaker 2: anything about the books. I really know nothing about the lore. 479 00:23:11,525 --> 00:23:15,485 Speaker 2: I know that they were published all together in nineteen 480 00:23:15,525 --> 00:23:18,645 Speaker 2: fifty four, nineteen fifty five, over that period, and you 481 00:23:18,685 --> 00:23:21,165 Speaker 2: think about these movies coming. I was thinking about that 482 00:23:21,165 --> 00:23:23,645 Speaker 2: as I was watching them, and thinking about them coming 483 00:23:23,685 --> 00:23:26,405 Speaker 2: on the heels of World War Two, where you've got 484 00:23:26,605 --> 00:23:30,565 Speaker 2: the world torn apart, you have these warring nations, and 485 00:23:30,605 --> 00:23:32,805 Speaker 2: then the story comes along and says, this is a 486 00:23:32,845 --> 00:23:35,565 Speaker 2: time for healing and unity and the dominion of men 487 00:23:35,725 --> 00:23:39,925 Speaker 2: being a good thing after all of this turmoil and destruction. 488 00:23:40,125 --> 00:23:43,045 Speaker 2: And I have to imagine that was a fairly comforting 489 00:23:43,085 --> 00:23:44,845 Speaker 2: thing for people who were reading it, even if it 490 00:23:44,925 --> 00:23:48,325 Speaker 2: wasn't totally conscious. And I think every generation is going 491 00:23:48,365 --> 00:23:51,285 Speaker 2: to connect with that idea on some level, But every 492 00:23:51,325 --> 00:23:54,125 Speaker 2: generation is also going to see themselves in Frodo. They 493 00:23:54,165 --> 00:23:56,765 Speaker 2: are always going to be hordes of readers who think 494 00:23:56,805 --> 00:24:00,085 Speaker 2: of themselves as small and insignificant, and who have these 495 00:24:00,085 --> 00:24:03,245 Speaker 2: inner conflicts, and they want to be or at least 496 00:24:03,565 --> 00:24:06,125 Speaker 2: want to have friends with the strength and the courage 497 00:24:06,365 --> 00:24:09,325 Speaker 2: of Aragorn and Legolas, and they want to have friends 498 00:24:09,325 --> 00:24:12,125 Speaker 2: who are as loyal to them as Sam and Mary 499 00:24:12,205 --> 00:24:15,365 Speaker 2: and Pitbar. And wouldn't we all love to have the 500 00:24:15,405 --> 00:24:17,965 Speaker 2: wise old figure with the staff to guide us, who 501 00:24:18,005 --> 00:24:21,405 Speaker 2: seemingly has all the answers and knows the way. So 502 00:24:21,605 --> 00:24:23,725 Speaker 2: I think that's always going to connect with people. And 503 00:24:24,085 --> 00:24:26,325 Speaker 2: I'm watching it as well, thinking about World War two, 504 00:24:26,485 --> 00:24:29,645 Speaker 2: and then I'm thinking about the end of the trilogy, 505 00:24:29,765 --> 00:24:32,045 Speaker 2: the culmination, and we can talk about that a little bit. 506 00:24:32,045 --> 00:24:34,525 Speaker 2: I saw your letterboxed comment, so I know you have 507 00:24:34,565 --> 00:24:37,045 Speaker 2: some issues, and Eric touched on that with how Return 508 00:24:37,045 --> 00:24:40,165 Speaker 2: of the King ends or ends multiple times, And we 509 00:24:40,245 --> 00:24:42,365 Speaker 2: are going to spoil this if this isn't clear by now. 510 00:24:42,645 --> 00:24:45,725 Speaker 2: We're going to consider these films in their totality. But 511 00:24:46,085 --> 00:24:50,285 Speaker 2: they return to the Shire and the four Hobbits are 512 00:24:50,285 --> 00:24:53,725 Speaker 2: sitting at the pub, and they all just share looks. 513 00:24:53,805 --> 00:24:56,885 Speaker 2: We get those those glances, the cuts to the close ups, 514 00:24:56,925 --> 00:24:59,445 Speaker 2: they don't say anything. They finally do cheers with their mugs, 515 00:24:59,485 --> 00:25:02,005 Speaker 2: but otherwise they don't say anything. And you realize that 516 00:25:02,165 --> 00:25:04,725 Speaker 2: in that moment they're almost not there. Life is going 517 00:25:04,725 --> 00:25:07,445 Speaker 2: on around them. It went on without them there in 518 00:25:07,485 --> 00:25:10,565 Speaker 2: the Shire. They're present in a way, but everything has 519 00:25:10,765 --> 00:25:14,805 Speaker 2: changed inside them because of this crucible of this journey 520 00:25:15,125 --> 00:25:17,605 Speaker 2: that they have gone through. And I'm watching it thinking 521 00:25:17,645 --> 00:25:21,285 Speaker 2: of Vietnam veterans. I'm thinking of these people coming home 522 00:25:21,325 --> 00:25:24,885 Speaker 2: from battle scarred. They don't get a heroes welcome, they 523 00:25:24,885 --> 00:25:26,605 Speaker 2: don't get the heroes welcome. When they come back to 524 00:25:26,645 --> 00:25:29,085 Speaker 2: the Shire. They have sort of that thousand yard stare 525 00:25:29,205 --> 00:25:32,685 Speaker 2: sitting there drinking their beer and they're thinking where do 526 00:25:32,805 --> 00:25:36,565 Speaker 2: we go from here? And I really loved the melancholy 527 00:25:36,765 --> 00:25:42,205 Speaker 2: of that ending. That really did surprise me. And I've 528 00:25:42,205 --> 00:25:44,245 Speaker 2: thought about it a little bit since seeing your post. 529 00:25:44,925 --> 00:25:48,085 Speaker 2: No doubt that as I watched the movie, I felt 530 00:25:48,125 --> 00:25:50,245 Speaker 2: like the movie had ended three times. But as I 531 00:25:50,325 --> 00:25:52,165 Speaker 2: reflect on the movie, and I reflect on how much 532 00:25:52,165 --> 00:25:54,165 Speaker 2: I really like Return of the King, I don't know 533 00:25:54,205 --> 00:25:55,845 Speaker 2: how they would have done it differently. It would have 534 00:25:55,845 --> 00:25:58,165 Speaker 2: felt false on one level for it to end with 535 00:25:58,245 --> 00:26:01,245 Speaker 2: the coronation, as much as that does feel like a 536 00:26:01,245 --> 00:26:03,805 Speaker 2: finale and it's a wonderful moment, and then them getting 537 00:26:03,845 --> 00:26:05,965 Speaker 2: back to the Shire adds this other element, this kind 538 00:26:06,005 --> 00:26:08,445 Speaker 2: of melancholic note that I just talked about. And then 539 00:26:08,525 --> 00:26:10,725 Speaker 2: even from there, I think we'll get into it a 540 00:26:10,725 --> 00:26:14,205 Speaker 2: little bit more. But that coda finally with them heading 541 00:26:14,245 --> 00:26:18,645 Speaker 2: off and leaving Mary and Pippin and Sam wise back 542 00:26:19,085 --> 00:26:21,605 Speaker 2: at the Shire, I think that adds its own other 543 00:26:21,805 --> 00:26:25,085 Speaker 2: layer of depth and emotion that we really did need. 544 00:26:25,285 --> 00:26:26,965 Speaker 2: I don't know how you would have ended it any 545 00:26:26,965 --> 00:26:29,285 Speaker 2: other way than it ultimately did. 546 00:26:29,405 --> 00:26:31,045 Speaker 1: Yeah, And to be clear, it's not that I think 547 00:26:31,085 --> 00:26:33,685 Speaker 1: what the way they did it is ruinous or anything. 548 00:26:33,805 --> 00:26:38,845 Speaker 1: I just felt the refusal to conclude more fully this time, 549 00:26:39,045 --> 00:26:40,725 Speaker 1: and it's part of what you talked about. I do 550 00:26:40,725 --> 00:26:43,045 Speaker 1: think the perfect ending was in the Shire. I love 551 00:26:43,125 --> 00:26:45,685 Speaker 1: that it returns there. My recollection from the book is 552 00:26:45,725 --> 00:26:49,765 Speaker 1: that is where it does eventually return to, and that 553 00:26:49,845 --> 00:26:53,165 Speaker 1: note there's a strong thread of PTSD. We would name 554 00:26:53,205 --> 00:26:55,805 Speaker 1: it now and maybe wouldn't have in early two thousands. 555 00:26:56,045 --> 00:26:59,885 Speaker 1: Throughout these films, the recognition of the cost of all 556 00:26:59,925 --> 00:27:02,445 Speaker 1: of this battling. It's for all the battle scenes. I 557 00:27:02,445 --> 00:27:04,805 Speaker 1: don't think you could call it a war mongering film. 558 00:27:04,845 --> 00:27:07,205 Speaker 1: People might debate me on that. Are there as certainly 559 00:27:07,245 --> 00:27:11,965 Speaker 1: elements Legolas and Gimli counting their kills. Yes, really, it 560 00:27:12,085 --> 00:27:14,725 Speaker 1: hits a bad note because it's at odds with this 561 00:27:15,125 --> 00:27:17,645 Speaker 1: otherwise recognition of the cost of all this violence. 562 00:27:17,965 --> 00:27:19,525 Speaker 2: Let me jump in real quick and say that one 563 00:27:19,565 --> 00:27:23,085 Speaker 2: of the things that Tolkien managed to pull off, and 564 00:27:23,125 --> 00:27:25,565 Speaker 2: so then Peter Jackson is the beneficiary of it is 565 00:27:25,685 --> 00:27:28,605 Speaker 2: unlike so many war movies where even if we as 566 00:27:28,685 --> 00:27:31,845 Speaker 2: viewers feel like they're killing the quote unquote enemy and 567 00:27:31,885 --> 00:27:35,925 Speaker 2: we think that the causes righteous were hyper aware, I 568 00:27:35,965 --> 00:27:37,925 Speaker 2: think most of us are anyway of the cost of 569 00:27:37,965 --> 00:27:40,725 Speaker 2: those lives. And there is a lack of moral clarity 570 00:27:40,845 --> 00:27:43,045 Speaker 2: in pretty much any war movie we can think of. 571 00:27:43,445 --> 00:27:46,045 Speaker 2: There's no lack of moral clarity here. They're killing orcs. 572 00:27:46,085 --> 00:27:49,245 Speaker 2: They're killing these creatures that were bred. They're not even 573 00:27:49,325 --> 00:27:52,325 Speaker 2: they're not human, they're nothing, They're they're these creatures bred 574 00:27:52,365 --> 00:27:55,925 Speaker 2: to be monsters to kill. So they get around that. 575 00:27:56,045 --> 00:27:58,165 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, so that's an out But the attitude with 576 00:27:58,205 --> 00:28:00,965 Speaker 1: which they do it. I think counting kills is at 577 00:28:00,965 --> 00:28:03,925 Speaker 1: odds with the otherwise recognition of loss that these movies have. 578 00:28:04,445 --> 00:28:07,165 Speaker 1: But getting back to the endings, I just think that 579 00:28:07,285 --> 00:28:10,045 Speaker 1: Shyer moment was so nice because it did end on 580 00:28:10,085 --> 00:28:13,005 Speaker 1: that note of melancholy. There was also the note of 581 00:28:13,405 --> 00:28:17,245 Speaker 1: frodo again going back to this being about storytelling, adding 582 00:28:17,325 --> 00:28:21,485 Speaker 1: to Bilbo's tail with his book, and for me, it 583 00:28:21,485 --> 00:28:23,885 Speaker 1: could have ended there would have been perfectly that they 584 00:28:23,925 --> 00:28:26,325 Speaker 1: went forward beyond that as fine. There's nothing terrible about 585 00:28:26,325 --> 00:28:29,445 Speaker 1: those moments. I just do you feel that sort of 586 00:28:29,485 --> 00:28:30,325 Speaker 1: like Lurch. 587 00:28:30,125 --> 00:28:33,805 Speaker 2: I agree completely, but intellectualizing it later. The other thing 588 00:28:33,845 --> 00:28:37,085 Speaker 2: that occurred to me is that maybe the most universal 589 00:28:37,085 --> 00:28:41,125 Speaker 2: aspect of this film, ultimately, the broadest thing you can 590 00:28:41,165 --> 00:28:42,805 Speaker 2: say about this film, of course, is that it is 591 00:28:42,845 --> 00:28:47,645 Speaker 2: about identity, all these characters realizing their destiny, or it 592 00:28:47,685 --> 00:28:49,845 Speaker 2: occurred to me, Josh honestly, to put it more simply, 593 00:28:50,285 --> 00:28:52,965 Speaker 2: they're growing up. And you've got at the end of 594 00:28:52,965 --> 00:28:55,885 Speaker 2: this film with that Codo, you've got the Wizard and 595 00:28:55,965 --> 00:28:58,165 Speaker 2: the elves and a couple of the Hobbits saying you 596 00:28:58,205 --> 00:29:01,245 Speaker 2: know what, I'm saying goodbye to this world of men. 597 00:29:01,485 --> 00:29:05,005 Speaker 2: These fantasy characters are taking off on the boat and 598 00:29:05,045 --> 00:29:09,205 Speaker 2: they're leaving the men now to rule and rule themselves 599 00:29:09,205 --> 00:29:12,565 Speaker 2: and live hopefully in harmony. And we have Aragorn. I'm 600 00:29:12,565 --> 00:29:15,245 Speaker 2: thinking about how he's accepting the throne and in the 601 00:29:15,285 --> 00:29:17,365 Speaker 2: process a wife, and we know they're going to have 602 00:29:17,405 --> 00:29:19,605 Speaker 2: a future son and Air. And even with Sam going 603 00:29:19,605 --> 00:29:23,125 Speaker 2: back at the very end of the movie, he's accepted adulthood. 604 00:29:23,285 --> 00:29:25,445 Speaker 2: He has the wife and the kids, He too has 605 00:29:25,645 --> 00:29:28,885 Speaker 2: grown up. And it's ironic that if Tolkien's goal was 606 00:29:28,965 --> 00:29:32,045 Speaker 2: to create this rich, expansive world in the hope that 607 00:29:32,085 --> 00:29:34,925 Speaker 2: we'd traverse through it with these characters and come out 608 00:29:34,965 --> 00:29:37,365 Speaker 2: the other side thinking it's now time to put aside 609 00:29:37,485 --> 00:29:40,525 Speaker 2: childish things, well he failed, obviously, right, because everyone's just 610 00:29:40,605 --> 00:29:43,325 Speaker 2: latched onto this mythology, and it's captured the imagination of 611 00:29:43,805 --> 00:29:46,165 Speaker 2: so many kids and so many adults who don't let 612 00:29:46,165 --> 00:29:48,245 Speaker 2: it go. And I swear it. As I was taking 613 00:29:48,285 --> 00:29:49,925 Speaker 2: all these notes today, I put it aside for a 614 00:29:49,965 --> 00:29:52,165 Speaker 2: little bit, and then I wanted to clarify something about 615 00:29:52,205 --> 00:29:54,205 Speaker 2: how the movie ended, and I did a Google search, 616 00:29:54,245 --> 00:29:56,645 Speaker 2: and I found a quote from the end of the 617 00:29:56,725 --> 00:30:01,205 Speaker 2: book from Tolkien, and this is what Frodo says to 618 00:30:01,285 --> 00:30:03,885 Speaker 2: Sam and the other Hobbits at the end of the film, 619 00:30:03,925 --> 00:30:06,725 Speaker 2: and as I recall, this isn't in the movie. He says, 620 00:30:06,805 --> 00:30:09,365 Speaker 2: you must settle the Shires affairs yourselves. That is what 621 00:30:09,405 --> 00:30:11,885 Speaker 2: you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand 622 00:30:11,925 --> 00:30:14,565 Speaker 2: My time is over. It is no longer my tasks 623 00:30:14,565 --> 00:30:16,885 Speaker 2: set things right, nor to help folk to do so. 624 00:30:17,045 --> 00:30:19,245 Speaker 2: And as for you, my dear friends, you will need 625 00:30:19,285 --> 00:30:22,205 Speaker 2: no help. You are grown up now, now grown indeed 626 00:30:22,365 --> 00:30:24,485 Speaker 2: very high among the great you are, and I have 627 00:30:24,565 --> 00:30:26,765 Speaker 2: no longer any fear at all for any of you. 628 00:30:26,925 --> 00:30:28,925 Speaker 2: So that goes back to everything that I was already 629 00:30:28,925 --> 00:30:31,445 Speaker 2: tapping into about the ending of that film in terms 630 00:30:31,445 --> 00:30:34,365 Speaker 2: of this idea of growing up, And that goes back 631 00:30:34,365 --> 00:30:37,845 Speaker 2: to the storytelling element too, Josh, where he has written 632 00:30:37,845 --> 00:30:40,165 Speaker 2: the book in that CODEO we get then the book 633 00:30:40,205 --> 00:30:43,285 Speaker 2: being handed over to Sam. He wrote the book and 634 00:30:43,325 --> 00:30:46,525 Speaker 2: literally closes the book on this fantasy chapter of their 635 00:30:46,565 --> 00:30:48,685 Speaker 2: lives and says, you know what, now it's time for 636 00:30:49,005 --> 00:30:51,365 Speaker 2: us to move on. So this whole idea of these 637 00:30:51,405 --> 00:30:56,205 Speaker 2: books somehow being about this ushering into adulthood, and of 638 00:30:56,205 --> 00:30:58,605 Speaker 2: course what's really universal about that is none of us 639 00:30:58,645 --> 00:31:00,805 Speaker 2: want to go. None of us want to be ushered 640 00:31:00,805 --> 00:31:02,045 Speaker 2: into adulthood. 641 00:31:01,645 --> 00:31:04,445 Speaker 1: Right, And you know, so what's being referred to there 642 00:31:04,605 --> 00:31:08,005 Speaker 1: is growth, maybe not so much of age, but of experience, yes, 643 00:31:08,045 --> 00:31:10,965 Speaker 1: and of understanding. And I think, you know, I'm not 644 00:31:10,965 --> 00:31:14,925 Speaker 1: an expert in it, but Tolkien wrote about myths and 645 00:31:15,445 --> 00:31:18,765 Speaker 1: wrote a famous essay on fairy stories, and they're from 646 00:31:18,805 --> 00:31:21,885 Speaker 1: what I remember, he talked mostly about using these fantastic 647 00:31:21,925 --> 00:31:26,045 Speaker 1: situations to bring out deeper truth that then you can 648 00:31:26,085 --> 00:31:29,245 Speaker 1: carry with you in your mundane life exactly. So that's 649 00:31:29,485 --> 00:31:32,405 Speaker 1: you know, yes, people you know, latch onto these and 650 00:31:32,445 --> 00:31:36,445 Speaker 1: in a way are revisiting their childhood. But I also 651 00:31:36,525 --> 00:31:39,525 Speaker 1: think it goes back to what I initially said about 652 00:31:39,525 --> 00:31:42,965 Speaker 1: igniting their imagination, and then you're also igniting through that 653 00:31:43,005 --> 00:31:46,565 Speaker 1: a moral imagination, and those two things, those two things 654 00:31:46,605 --> 00:31:50,365 Speaker 1: can be intertwined and lived out as an adult at 655 00:31:50,445 --> 00:31:53,325 Speaker 1: its best. And this is somewhat related. One thing I 656 00:31:53,525 --> 00:31:57,005 Speaker 1: really wanted to talk about is this idea. It struck 657 00:31:57,045 --> 00:32:00,525 Speaker 1: me during the Two Towers, in particular, this idea of 658 00:32:00,565 --> 00:32:03,125 Speaker 1: the ring itself that's driving all of this. 659 00:32:04,045 --> 00:32:06,285 Speaker 3: As you could say. 660 00:32:06,125 --> 00:32:08,685 Speaker 1: On the one hand, it's just a moral mcguffin right, 661 00:32:08,765 --> 00:32:11,925 Speaker 1: that it's this thing of temptation. And how many times 662 00:32:11,965 --> 00:32:13,925 Speaker 1: have we talked about, especially in these Mawerful movies, that 663 00:32:13,925 --> 00:32:16,045 Speaker 1: there's always a mcguffin something at the center of it, 664 00:32:16,165 --> 00:32:19,205 Speaker 1: just to drive the action. But the ring in these 665 00:32:19,245 --> 00:32:21,685 Speaker 1: films it's more than that. It's more than just a 666 00:32:21,765 --> 00:32:26,805 Speaker 1: symbol for things. It's really a character. And there are 667 00:32:27,085 --> 00:32:32,125 Speaker 1: very cinematic ways that Jackson and his collaborators make that 668 00:32:32,245 --> 00:32:34,445 Speaker 1: little thing a character. When you think about when we 669 00:32:34,525 --> 00:32:37,725 Speaker 1: first see it, it has its own theme music, Yeah, 670 00:32:37,765 --> 00:32:41,125 Speaker 1: by Howard Shore. Okay, so like a superhero gets a theme, here, 671 00:32:41,205 --> 00:32:44,765 Speaker 1: the ring gets a theme. The cinematography, there's that moment 672 00:32:44,845 --> 00:32:49,405 Speaker 1: where it reflects a shower of light across Frodo's face, 673 00:32:49,445 --> 00:32:53,045 Speaker 1: so it has a presence beyond itself. The great sound 674 00:32:53,085 --> 00:32:55,245 Speaker 1: effects of when it's dropped on the ground, it's this 675 00:32:55,365 --> 00:32:58,645 Speaker 1: heavy thud, as if it had dropped Thor's hammer. And 676 00:32:58,685 --> 00:33:01,445 Speaker 1: then when Frodo puts it on and he disappears, and 677 00:33:01,485 --> 00:33:05,325 Speaker 1: we get these when we see him, the background is blurry, 678 00:33:05,365 --> 00:33:08,085 Speaker 1: it's like this smeared Renaissance painting, but he's kind of 679 00:33:08,085 --> 00:33:12,085 Speaker 1: in focus. I mean, all of this of course backs 680 00:33:12,165 --> 00:33:15,405 Speaker 1: up the idea of I guess the thematic weight that 681 00:33:15,485 --> 00:33:17,885 Speaker 1: the Ring does have as well. It's this character around 682 00:33:17,925 --> 00:33:23,165 Speaker 1: which all these thoughts about power and corruption, temptation, addiction. 683 00:33:23,365 --> 00:33:26,325 Speaker 1: Even it struck me we'll get to Gollum eventually. I'm 684 00:33:26,405 --> 00:33:31,325 Speaker 1: sure as a figure of addiction in many ways, that 685 00:33:31,845 --> 00:33:35,605 Speaker 1: this little thing is really at the center of it 686 00:33:35,645 --> 00:33:37,525 Speaker 1: all and not just as a plot device. 687 00:33:37,645 --> 00:33:40,045 Speaker 2: No, no, you're absolutely right. And I do have more 688 00:33:40,085 --> 00:33:44,005 Speaker 2: to say about The Ring and how we recognize through 689 00:33:44,325 --> 00:33:47,045 Speaker 2: some of the choices Jackson makes and the actors make, 690 00:33:47,365 --> 00:33:51,205 Speaker 2: we really do understand the full weight and impact of it. 691 00:33:51,245 --> 00:33:53,005 Speaker 2: But that's going to give them out top five, so 692 00:33:53,165 --> 00:33:55,165 Speaker 2: to save Yeah, I've got a lot more I could 693 00:33:55,205 --> 00:33:56,725 Speaker 2: say about this movie, but it's all going to come 694 00:33:56,805 --> 00:33:58,845 Speaker 2: up when we get to our favorite scenes from the trilogy. 695 00:33:58,925 --> 00:34:00,605 Speaker 2: So what else? What else do we need to dissect 696 00:34:00,605 --> 00:34:01,045 Speaker 2: at this point? 697 00:34:01,125 --> 00:34:02,765 Speaker 1: The other thing I wanted to make a point of 698 00:34:02,805 --> 00:34:04,885 Speaker 1: that I didn't find a place for in my top five, 699 00:34:04,925 --> 00:34:06,925 Speaker 1: but we can save it if it's in yours is 700 00:34:07,005 --> 00:34:11,805 Speaker 1: that these really function as horror films. And I think, 701 00:34:11,925 --> 00:34:14,765 Speaker 1: you know, Peter Jackson, Yes, he made heavenly creatures. I 702 00:34:14,765 --> 00:34:15,845 Speaker 1: think that was his kind. 703 00:34:15,685 --> 00:34:17,125 Speaker 3: Of art house breakout. 704 00:34:17,245 --> 00:34:21,245 Speaker 1: But he got attention earlier than that for Dead a Eye, 705 00:34:21,364 --> 00:34:23,045 Speaker 1: and then right before The Lord of the Rings, he 706 00:34:23,085 --> 00:34:27,085 Speaker 1: made the Michael J. Fox horror comedy The Frighteners. I 707 00:34:27,085 --> 00:34:31,205 Speaker 1: actually interviewed Jackson at a hunted Chicago bar for that movie. 708 00:34:31,845 --> 00:34:33,365 Speaker 2: Why am I just learning this now? 709 00:34:33,405 --> 00:34:37,725 Speaker 1: Not a great film, but an interesting one and certainly 710 00:34:38,285 --> 00:34:42,925 Speaker 1: has horror elements, And think about all of the pieces 711 00:34:43,005 --> 00:34:47,205 Speaker 1: here that are just pushed over into the horror arena. 712 00:34:47,325 --> 00:34:51,845 Speaker 1: The makeup design, absolutely, the gorness that these orcs and 713 00:34:51,885 --> 00:34:56,405 Speaker 1: other creatures are given. They're really awful and frightening. You 714 00:34:56,445 --> 00:35:01,805 Speaker 1: mentioned Kate Blanchet when she when her elf queen here, 715 00:35:01,845 --> 00:35:03,844 Speaker 1: oh yeah, myself into trouble. But at one point she 716 00:35:03,925 --> 00:35:07,125 Speaker 1: imagines having the ring herself, yes, and she turns into 717 00:35:07,165 --> 00:35:09,245 Speaker 1: this ghostly possessed specter. 718 00:35:09,805 --> 00:35:12,085 Speaker 2: I mean that's and she says she passed the test, 719 00:35:12,125 --> 00:35:13,685 Speaker 2: and I'll be honest, that's still the moment that on 720 00:35:13,805 --> 00:35:17,085 Speaker 2: first viewing, I don't know totally how to process you 721 00:35:17,125 --> 00:35:20,005 Speaker 2: what exactly I'm supposed to glean from that what test 722 00:35:20,285 --> 00:35:22,245 Speaker 2: she passed? She she did have that element, but she 723 00:35:22,245 --> 00:35:22,844 Speaker 2: didn't take it. 724 00:35:22,925 --> 00:35:25,445 Speaker 1: She had the power to take it from Frodo. She 725 00:35:25,485 --> 00:35:28,645 Speaker 1: managed to hold back there. Yeah, she might still let 726 00:35:28,725 --> 00:35:32,125 Speaker 1: that beast out right, And that's a scary, scary beast. 727 00:35:32,485 --> 00:35:35,805 Speaker 1: The eye of Soren. This recurring image is nothing short 728 00:35:35,805 --> 00:35:38,645 Speaker 1: of demonic, and even little touches like when they're walking 729 00:35:38,685 --> 00:35:40,965 Speaker 1: through the bog Frodo and Sam and Gollum and those 730 00:35:41,165 --> 00:35:44,445 Speaker 1: faces of the corpses under the water. I mean, you 731 00:35:44,485 --> 00:35:46,245 Speaker 1: could go on and on. The Ghost Kings of Return 732 00:35:46,245 --> 00:35:49,445 Speaker 1: of the King. I know, the ghost Kings not you know, 733 00:35:49,805 --> 00:35:54,165 Speaker 1: kind of a not a favorite element of many fans. 734 00:35:54,205 --> 00:35:56,005 Speaker 1: They are reminiscent of some of the effects and the 735 00:35:56,005 --> 00:35:58,205 Speaker 1: Frighteners though. I mean, really, if there's an a tourist 736 00:35:58,245 --> 00:36:00,045 Speaker 1: case to be made for Lord of the Rings, I 737 00:36:00,085 --> 00:36:02,885 Speaker 1: think it's looking at these horror elements that are clearly 738 00:36:02,965 --> 00:36:06,885 Speaker 1: part of Jackson's stamp. Okay, one more thing to talk about. 739 00:36:07,285 --> 00:36:09,845 Speaker 1: I'm sure this is in terms of the acting overall. 740 00:36:09,885 --> 00:36:11,525 Speaker 1: I'm sure we're going to give time to Ian McKellen. 741 00:36:11,605 --> 00:36:14,325 Speaker 1: Let we get to our top five as Gandolf, but 742 00:36:14,525 --> 00:36:16,404 Speaker 1: I want to make sure that we also talk about 743 00:36:16,405 --> 00:36:19,805 Speaker 1: Bernard Hill as theodin the King of the Horse Riders 744 00:36:19,805 --> 00:36:22,805 Speaker 1: of Rohan. What a great character arc he gets as 745 00:36:22,845 --> 00:36:25,685 Speaker 1: maybe like what the twentieth person introduced in this saga, 746 00:36:25,765 --> 00:36:28,245 Speaker 1: but still he goes from this possessed king more horror 747 00:36:28,245 --> 00:36:31,364 Speaker 1: there to kind of a reluctant warrior to eventually this 748 00:36:31,485 --> 00:36:34,365 Speaker 1: valiant rescue get an exorcism, and yeah. 749 00:36:34,205 --> 00:36:34,765 Speaker 3: No kidding. 750 00:36:35,125 --> 00:36:37,844 Speaker 1: And as far as the Shakespeare stuff goes, Hill could 751 00:36:37,885 --> 00:36:40,645 Speaker 1: probably make any line sound Shakespearean. But I think here 752 00:36:40,645 --> 00:36:43,125 Speaker 1: he's given some really poetic stuff. I don't know if 753 00:36:43,125 --> 00:36:45,725 Speaker 1: this comes from Tolkien or if it's from the screenwriters. 754 00:36:45,765 --> 00:36:48,005 Speaker 1: And at least on two Towers, there were four of them, 755 00:36:48,125 --> 00:36:52,365 Speaker 1: Jackson fran Walsh, Philip A. Boyans, and then Stephen Sinclair. 756 00:36:52,845 --> 00:36:55,085 Speaker 1: But there are of course those two famous speeches he 757 00:36:55,125 --> 00:36:57,245 Speaker 1: gives at Helm's Deep how did it come to this? 758 00:36:57,765 --> 00:37:00,405 Speaker 1: And then later so it begins. But I really like 759 00:37:00,485 --> 00:37:03,165 Speaker 1: that eulogy he has for his son, where he's mourning 760 00:37:03,205 --> 00:37:06,125 Speaker 1: the loss of his child and also this curtain coming 761 00:37:06,165 --> 00:37:10,285 Speaker 1: down on his kingdom. I think that's another instance of 762 00:37:10,605 --> 00:37:13,365 Speaker 1: you know, the movie pausing when it really doesn't have 763 00:37:13,445 --> 00:37:17,165 Speaker 1: much time to spare for a significant scene of grief 764 00:37:17,605 --> 00:37:19,725 Speaker 1: and loss. So, you know, I don't think there's a 765 00:37:19,765 --> 00:37:23,085 Speaker 1: bad performance in this series. Maybe you disagree. 766 00:37:22,685 --> 00:37:24,645 Speaker 2: Now I don't feel that way. I agree with you. 767 00:37:24,685 --> 00:37:26,565 Speaker 2: I think they are all good, and in fact, we 768 00:37:26,605 --> 00:37:29,844 Speaker 2: will talk about It's funny the last three things you've 769 00:37:29,845 --> 00:37:34,045 Speaker 2: talked about in terms of the horror aspect, the ring itself, 770 00:37:34,165 --> 00:37:37,925 Speaker 2: and the performances and the stature of some of these 771 00:37:37,965 --> 00:37:40,645 Speaker 2: actors and the complexity they bring to the characters. It's 772 00:37:40,685 --> 00:37:42,965 Speaker 2: all going to unify in one of my top five choices, 773 00:37:43,205 --> 00:37:44,445 Speaker 2: So we will get to more of that. But I 774 00:37:44,925 --> 00:37:48,005 Speaker 2: love Bernard Hill here. I agree with you. I considered 775 00:37:48,045 --> 00:37:52,125 Speaker 2: his exorcism scene actually as one of my favorite scenes 776 00:37:52,165 --> 00:37:56,444 Speaker 2: overall in the trilogy. And I mention complexity. I love 777 00:37:56,485 --> 00:37:59,245 Speaker 2: the fact that we are never quite on firm ground 778 00:37:59,285 --> 00:38:01,725 Speaker 2: with him in terms of we trust that he is 779 00:38:01,765 --> 00:38:04,205 Speaker 2: a nobleman. Other people seem to think he's a nobleman. 780 00:38:04,445 --> 00:38:06,885 Speaker 2: But he's fighting some of the same issues of jealousy 781 00:38:07,285 --> 00:38:10,525 Speaker 2: that other characters are in terms of Aragorn and the 782 00:38:10,565 --> 00:38:13,765 Speaker 2: stature and the status that he might have, and he's 783 00:38:13,885 --> 00:38:16,605 Speaker 2: got some negative feelings about some of these other kingdoms, 784 00:38:16,765 --> 00:38:19,085 Speaker 2: and rightfully so. So you want him to make a 785 00:38:19,085 --> 00:38:22,045 Speaker 2: certain decision. Gandalf is urging to make a certain decision. 786 00:38:22,325 --> 00:38:25,325 Speaker 2: He is maybe ambivalent, you understand though it's driving that 787 00:38:25,445 --> 00:38:28,805 Speaker 2: and you do feel for his position. So that's where 788 00:38:28,805 --> 00:38:31,565 Speaker 2: some of that that Shakespearean stuff comes through as well 789 00:38:31,605 --> 00:38:32,725 Speaker 2: with his character. 790 00:38:32,925 --> 00:38:38,125 Speaker 5: Simblemon, ever has it grown on the tombs of my forebears? 791 00:38:40,965 --> 00:38:43,125 Speaker 5: Now it shall cover the grave of my son. 792 00:38:46,045 --> 00:38:47,605 Speaker 3: Alas that these evil. 793 00:38:47,365 --> 00:38:53,885 Speaker 5: Days should be mine, the young Pettish and the old linger, 794 00:38:55,685 --> 00:38:59,525 Speaker 5: that I should live to see the last days of 795 00:38:59,565 --> 00:39:00,125 Speaker 5: my house. 796 00:39:02,645 --> 00:39:10,045 Speaker 3: Sadrew's death cause not of your own making. No Petters 797 00:39:10,045 --> 00:39:11,165 Speaker 3: should have to betty that. 798 00:39:11,205 --> 00:39:15,765 Speaker 1: Child access to the film Spotting Archive. 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