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Speaker 1: Tillage, and this is so exciting for me for real,

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Speaker 1: Amy du Boys Barnett is here with me, Welcome to.

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Speaker 2: The show, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: And her book, If I Ruled the World is actually

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Speaker 1: out today, so I'm excited for that and I read

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Speaker 1: the whole book and when I tell you, this is

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Speaker 1: a absolutely cannot put it down book. And I also

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Speaker 1: have admired your career for such a long time, and

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Speaker 1: I just have to say, for me coming up, honey, magazine,

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Speaker 1: was it like for me and all my friends? And

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Speaker 1: so it feels like this book If I Rule the World.

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Speaker 1: I know it's the work of fiction, but I know

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Speaker 1: you have the inside information on what it's like to

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Speaker 1: run a magazine, and I'm sure you were able to

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Speaker 1: pull from different aspects of your life as a journalist,

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Speaker 1: as an.

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Speaker 3: Editor in chief, you know.

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Speaker 1: And so I just want to say I was so

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Speaker 1: excited when you told me you were writing this book.

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Speaker 1: You asked me to host your book launch event that's

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Speaker 1: going to be in Brooklyn, and no questions asked.

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Speaker 3: I was like, absolutely so.

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Speaker 2: Which I totally appreciate it.

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Speaker 4: We've been knowing each other for such a long time,

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Speaker 4: and yes, you're right if I Rule of the World

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Speaker 4: is not a romanoclaith on my personal story, but it

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Speaker 4: is it's based in a world that I know better

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Speaker 4: than almost anyone, and it is definitely inspired by my

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Speaker 4: experience as an editor in chief and specifically of Honey Magazine.

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Speaker 3: So even how you start this book.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 3: This juicy, y'all.

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Speaker 2: It's very is some controversy in there that is correct.

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Speaker 1: And I want to talk about just some of the

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Speaker 1: characters and as you're because when people read this book,

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Speaker 1: and I remember being struck by the fact that and

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Speaker 1: not giving away too much because obviously you need to

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Speaker 1: read it to understand it. But this is in the

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Speaker 1: very beginning, you get caught at a cafe with Alonzo,

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Speaker 1: who is actually your boss. The protagonist does yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: And it's just so important for me to bring this

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Speaker 1: up because there are so many times when people will

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Speaker 1: try to block your progress and your career, and I think,

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Speaker 1: in particular as a woman, based off of what you

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Speaker 1: will and won't do with them and for them, right exactly.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's I mean, my book is about that in

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Speaker 4: large part, right, So, I mean my novel if it

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Speaker 4: is set in New York City in the late nineteen

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Speaker 4: nineties early two thousands. What it's time, Oh my god,

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Speaker 4: right at the intersection of hip hop and magazines in fashion,

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Speaker 4: you know what I mean. And so that's one of

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Speaker 4: the most important cultural eras of our time. And so

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Speaker 4: this book is really a behind the scenes peak into

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Speaker 4: what it was like, especially for a woman. Right, So

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Speaker 4: we follow Nicki Rose, my protagonist, as she you know,

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Speaker 4: not coming She doesn't come of age, right because she's

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Speaker 4: an adult wood Meeter or she's twenty nine, But she's

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Speaker 4: coming of power inside of these influential institutions where you

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Speaker 4: know glamour and you know romance and friendship, they coexist

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Speaker 4: with misogyny and racism and danger, right, because it's such

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Speaker 4: a dangerous time to be a woman. And so you

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Speaker 4: know Niki Rose, as you see from the very first

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Speaker 4: page of the book, she's trying to decide who she's

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Speaker 4: willing to become and what she's willing to sacrifice as

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Speaker 4: she goes for her dreams.

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Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we also don't identify when we've

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Speaker 1: been taken advantage of because people will say, you made

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Speaker 1: a conscious decision to do this. And even though Nicki

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Speaker 1: Rose was an adult, she was when you start with

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Speaker 1: the book, you'll see Alonso is the protagonist. Like you said,

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Speaker 1: he's the answer, I mean antagonists, the protagonist, but he

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Speaker 1: is the one that is trying to block her blessings

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Speaker 1: and block her hard work from happening, and spreading rumors

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Speaker 1: about her in the industry. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I see people acting like, well, she made a decision, well,

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Speaker 1: she decided to sleep with him, but he was in

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Speaker 1: a position of power over her.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly.

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Speaker 4: But that is part of like, you know, what's fascinating

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Speaker 4: about Nicki's journey, right, She's messy, and she's making mistakes,

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Speaker 4: you know, And yes, I mean she's also subjected to

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Speaker 4: power dynam because they make it difficult for her to

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Speaker 4: see clearly and to make the right decisions.

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Speaker 2: But she's also trying to.

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Speaker 4: Figure out she's coming into her own voice, right, So

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Speaker 4: she's trying to come she's trying to get empowered enough

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Speaker 4: to make the decisions that are going to be positive

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Speaker 4: for her in the long run. And so we watch

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Speaker 4: her make these mistakes, but we root for her, you know,

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Speaker 4: we route for her to kind of get through it,

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Speaker 4: because you know, she is you know, driven by by

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Speaker 4: by purpose, and she does want to, you know, be

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Speaker 4: a positive representationentation, and she does want to find true love,

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Speaker 4: and she does want to be successful, you know, but

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Speaker 4: she's just you know, in these typical situations along the way.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because one thing about you that is definitely

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Speaker 1: true about Nikki also is she's mixed. She's bi racial, yes,

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Speaker 1: and that sometimes does present like identity issues for people around.

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Speaker 3: You to figure out who are you?

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Speaker 1: Because I know when I first started doing radio, having

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Speaker 1: a name like Angela Yee, before people had a chance

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Speaker 1: to see what I look like, it was always like,

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Speaker 1: who is this Asian person invading, you know, our space,

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Speaker 1: and she's not black until somebody was on the message

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Speaker 1: It was when they have message boards and somebody was

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Speaker 1: on there like no, she's actually black. But then people

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Speaker 1: will tell you, well, you're by racial, you're not black.

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Speaker 1: How do you identify you? Even done articles about what

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Speaker 1: are you?

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Speaker 2: Right? You know?

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Speaker 1: And so how do you think that played in this

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Speaker 1: in this world like you said this set back then

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Speaker 1: where it's also about cred credibility.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly right, I mean, and that is something that

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Speaker 4: I did pull from my own personal experience, although I

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Speaker 4: didn't have quite the journey that Nikki, my protagonist did

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Speaker 4: in that space. But you know, I'm a black woman

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Speaker 4: with a white dad, right, She's also a black woman

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Speaker 4: with a white dad.

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Speaker 2: That's how she identifies, you know what I mean. But

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Speaker 2: when we.

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Speaker 4: First meet her, she is an editor at a high

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Speaker 4: end you know, mainstream read white you know, fashion magazine,

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Speaker 4: and so you know, they're asking her to be like

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Speaker 4: the black whisperer there, like the black token whatever. But

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Speaker 4: still her white fashion magazine colleagues think she's too black, right,

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Speaker 4: And then she goes on to become editor in chief

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Speaker 4: of Sugar Magazine, which is an urban, you know, black

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Speaker 4: woman's like music and lifestyle magazine. And when she gets there,

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Speaker 4: people are like, oh wait a minute, you know, do

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Speaker 4: you have can you authentically represent this brand? Do you

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Speaker 4: have enough cred to be able to do it? Like

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Speaker 4: who are you really? Are you really black enough? Basically,

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Speaker 4: are you black enough right to be editor in chief

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Speaker 4: of this black brand? And it's not what I really

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Speaker 4: want to do was represent you know, being biracial in

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Speaker 4: a more nuanced way. You're not like, oh my wife,

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Speaker 4: are my black? Because that's not at all her journey.

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Speaker 4: It's more how she is you know, kind of representing

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Speaker 4: herself in these various spaces and how people are looking

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Speaker 4: at her and what they're expecting of her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's always black, Like, she's never questioned what she was,

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Speaker 1: but it's other people and sometimes that will question that.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that really stood out was,

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Speaker 1: you know, black girls don't sell magazines because when she's

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Speaker 1: working at the white magazine, she's always pushing these black stories.

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Speaker 1: And you know, that is something that is definitely, I

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Speaker 1: think so true today.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I literally know somebody who was working at

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Speaker 1: a very white publication and she would pitch black story

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Speaker 1: and they'd be like, m No, Like our readers, you know,

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Speaker 1: aren't into that. She was like the only black girl.

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Speaker 1: But anytime there was like a big celebrity black story,

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Speaker 1: they wanted her to be like, oh, could you work

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Speaker 1: on this story? But anytime she was trying to pitch

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Speaker 1: something that was innovative, that was creative, that was like okay,

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Speaker 1: They're like, no, that's not for our readers. That's exactly,

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Speaker 1: That's exactly that's I mean, And that's still today.

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Speaker 2: That's still today, I know.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, obviously, you know, racism, racism, in

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Speaker 4: this country and around the world.

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Speaker 2: Will never died.

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Speaker 3: I never know y'all didn't know turn a news on

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Speaker 3: out here in d Street.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean you know there are Again.

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Speaker 4: This is not my personal journey like during my Protagonist,

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Speaker 4: but there were certain things from my own life that

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Speaker 4: I did pull in and I appropriated for the novel.

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Speaker 4: And one of the things was that black roles don't

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Speaker 4: sell magazine in line, because that was actually said to

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Speaker 4: me was by a man when I was working for

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Speaker 4: a white fashion magazine, not Harper's Bizarre that I worked

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Speaker 4: out later in my career, although there is a story

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Speaker 4: in the in my book from that as well, which.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you about. Okay, but I'll tell you about

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Speaker 2: that one.

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Speaker 4: But this is you know, a man who did when

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Speaker 4: I was working in a fashion magazine very early, and

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Speaker 4: you know, when I was in my twenties, and he

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Speaker 4: was like, you know, I was pitching a story about

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Speaker 4: black folks and he was.

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Speaker 2: Like, oh, black girls don't sell magazines.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: And it is so sad that that still happens to

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Speaker 2: us to.

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Speaker 1: This even like in media, they'll be like black people

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Speaker 1: don't sell movies, or that can't be international don't.

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Speaker 2: Want our audience, We don't want our dollars.

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Speaker 1: You can still go to the club with a bunch

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Speaker 1: of white people and they're listening to hip hop. So

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Speaker 1: that's all very interesting, and I think still today we

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Speaker 1: can see a lot of what was happening then is

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Speaker 1: still happening now exactly as I'm looking at this. And

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Speaker 1: also just the power dynamics now. I feel like the

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Speaker 1: music industry has had this, like as we can see

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Speaker 1: with a lot of people who have been brought to

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Speaker 1: some type of justice or at least even platform, because

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Speaker 1: there's people who definitely have gotten away with things, people

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Speaker 1: who have managed to avoid, like you know.

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Speaker 3: Any type of punishment.

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Speaker 1: And some people will tell you, oh, well everybody just

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Speaker 1: behaved badly back then. What do you say to somebody

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Speaker 1: that would say that to you, Like, well, it was

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Speaker 1: just the time period.

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Speaker 3: That's just how everybody acted.

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Speaker 2: I mean, on one hand, that's true.

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Speaker 4: I mean, on one hand, that's true, Like you know,

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Speaker 4: so many of us don't with I mean so much misogyny,

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Speaker 4: sexual harassment, sexual violence, just being dismissed as a woman, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean all the things. And it's true. It was so

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Speaker 2: well into the in.

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Speaker 4: The culture right that we didn't even really understand at

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Speaker 4: the time. We didn't have the perspective to know how

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Speaker 4: wrong it was. And even if we did, we had

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Speaker 4: no recourse.

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Speaker 2: We had nowhere to go.

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Speaker 1: You still want to work right, like you want to

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Speaker 1: be able to have a jab, because that was always

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Speaker 1: the issue too, like will I ever work again right?

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Speaker 2: Exactly? But also it was it was thread throughout the culture.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't just a few bad players.

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Speaker 4: It was in the music, right, you know, when Gangster

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Speaker 4: around kind of you know, I would say it took over,

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Speaker 4: but you know, gained so much popularity. You know, there

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Speaker 4: was a lot more misogyny than thread throughout much of

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Speaker 4: the lyrics and hip hop. And now there's a ton

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Speaker 4: of I mean, I love hip hop, you know, so

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Speaker 4: there's a ton of beautiful, you know, empowering lyrics and

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Speaker 4: it's a beautiful art form. So I'm not trying to

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Speaker 4: you know, denigrate it at all, but you know, there

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Speaker 4: was so much more misogyny that all of a sudden

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Speaker 4: came into the lyrics, and then that became something that

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Speaker 4: was like pedestalized. It was like you know, a goal

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Speaker 4: almost you know, by not just the artists, but then

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Speaker 4: the music executives, and then it became part of the culture,

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Speaker 4: and then we exported that culture around the world. And

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Speaker 4: so it's not just okay, we're going to take down

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Speaker 4: like Puff, We're going to take down this person. It's like,

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Speaker 4: how do you address, you know, something that has now

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Speaker 4: become a part of a large part, I should say,

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Speaker 4: of a culture.

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Speaker 1: I just want to from your perspective, since you just

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Speaker 1: said Puff's name, when you think of I know, when

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Speaker 1: you think about his whole situation, when you look at

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Speaker 1: like a Russell Simmons for people who are like, well,

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Speaker 1: why didn't somebody do something? Well, why didn't somebody speak

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Speaker 1: out at the time? And I just want to know

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Speaker 1: from your perspective, as somebody who was in it, who's

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Speaker 1: witnessed a lot, and not saying that anything happened to you,

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Speaker 1: but what would you say if somebody was like, well,

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Speaker 1: why didn't people speak up? Well? Why are they speaking

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Speaker 1: up now? Well, why do people have things to say now?

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Speaker 1: How would you respond to that?

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Speaker 4: I mean, well, first of all, I could not be

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Speaker 4: more grateful to be sort of like where I was

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Speaker 4: in culture at that time. I was a part of

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Speaker 4: d I was creating culture, but I wasn't in you know,

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Speaker 4: his inside circle in that particular way, but I was

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Speaker 4: just far enough out to like not have you know,

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Speaker 4: witnessed anything personally, right, but in it enough to have

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Speaker 4: observed other people, you know, who were dealing with not

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Speaker 4: just from him, but all manner of you know, sexual

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Speaker 4: harassment and violence and all the things. And again, you know,

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Speaker 4: there was many things to play. One of them was

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Speaker 4: power dynamics, right. I mean, we were many ambitious women, right,

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Speaker 4: we're dealing, we're navigating this culture in which misogyny was rampant,

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Speaker 4: and so they did not have they felt like they

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Speaker 4: didn't have a lot of alternatives because they wanted to work,

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Speaker 4: they wanted to.

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Speaker 2: Be successful, right.

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Speaker 4: And also there was a complexity there, right, and that

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Speaker 4: you knew that even you want to kind of toe

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Speaker 4: a line, right that even as you know, your brilliance

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Speaker 4: was was valued, so was your beauty, and so it

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Speaker 4: was helpful to be attractive, to be seen as attractive,

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Speaker 4: and then to come in with your intelligence.

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Speaker 2: And so there was a kind of a nuance there.

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Speaker 2: There was a complexity, but really, at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day, where are we going to go? Who are

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Speaker 2: we going to talk to?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 4: I mean HR was not we see you in the book, yeah,

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Speaker 4: and DHR is not going to save you, right, so

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Speaker 4: there was just nowhere to go to actually complain in

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Speaker 4: a way that was going to be effective.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that to be a successful woman?

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Speaker 1: And I want to ask you, not just the book,

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Speaker 1: but for you personally. A lot of times we do

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Speaker 1: make sacrifices in our personal life and we see that

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Speaker 1: kind of come into play. I want to ask for Amy,

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Speaker 1: do you feel like in order to achieve what you have?

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Speaker 1: I mean, editor in chief of Ebony, editor in chief

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Speaker 1: of Honey magazine, deputy editor at Harper's Bizarre you know

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Speaker 1: you also and I'm going to ask you about your

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Speaker 1: time at Undefeated as well ESPN, because at the time

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Speaker 1: they had Jason Whitlock as the person that they had

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Speaker 1: initially put in charge of that. You've been through a lot,

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Speaker 1: but I just.

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Speaker 2: Want to know.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry I got to run down Accolae right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: so many, but I just want to know what do

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Speaker 1: you think about that balance?

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Speaker 3: Is there? Passive?

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Speaker 1: Is it possible for you to have been able to

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Speaker 1: have like a normal functioning relationship outside of work when

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Speaker 1: you're really pulling in these long long, like twelve hour

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Speaker 1: eighteen hour days.

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Speaker 4: You know, I have always functioned best when all when

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Speaker 4: I'm firing on all cylinders, right, So I actually do

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Speaker 4: better when I'm in a relationship. You know, I do

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Speaker 4: better when I have friendships, you know. I mean it's

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Speaker 4: partially that I'm a work card, play hard girl.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've always worked my you know, worked my

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Speaker 2: ass off. You know, I just have You.

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Speaker 4: People look at folks and you know, quote unquote glamorous,

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Speaker 4: you know, industries, and they think that it's just like, oh,

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Speaker 4: you know, you're just glamorous, you know, twenty four seventh

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Speaker 4: through sixty five. Meanwhile, I was like eating dinner from

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Speaker 4: the vending machine the night before, like you know, midnight,

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Speaker 4: you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: You know, so that's real. But I have never.

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Speaker 4: Wanted to sacrifice my life, you know, in service of

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Speaker 4: my job. You know, I've always been really intentional about

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Speaker 4: living life fully.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: So I've been married, I've been divorced. I have a son,

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Speaker 4: he's in college right now. You know, I'm engaged again

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Speaker 4: to an amazing guy I've been with for almost ten years.

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean. I saw the twenty sixteen throwback,

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Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: I was like, listen, that was the year of years.

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Speaker 2: That's what I've met my guy, you know.

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Speaker 4: So I mean, you know, I'm not gonna say that

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Speaker 4: there are not sacrifices, because I've made a ton, you know,

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Speaker 4: and and honestly, probably the biggest sacrifice is peace. You know,

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Speaker 4: this kind of life is not for everyone. It is

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Speaker 4: not the most peaceful life. It is a life that

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Speaker 4: is filled with a lot of energy and a lot

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Speaker 4: of doing, and a lot of sort of people and

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Speaker 4: things and motion and movement, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: But it's not There isn't a lot of sort of

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Speaker 4: like sitting back, And you have to be intentional about that, right,

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Speaker 4: You have to be intentional about doing that on vacation

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Speaker 4: or really taking time off to find that peace and

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Speaker 4: find that break, you know. But yeah, I mean it

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Speaker 4: is very complex to be an ambitious woman.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, But I love the fact that she did

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Speaker 3: have it on.

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Speaker 1: Now, there were times this protagonist in the book, Nikki,

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Speaker 1: I was like, girl, what are you doing?

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Speaker 3: Because there's certain decisions.

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Speaker 1: But that's real life, right, Like, I know there's times

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Speaker 1: that no matter what I might, don't touch that stove

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Speaker 1: it's hut and you're still going to be.

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Speaker 3: Like, are you sure it's hot?

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Speaker 2: I don't look like it's.

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Speaker 1: So there were just some frustrating things. But there were

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Speaker 1: some news that broke before we even had this interview,

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Speaker 1: and that was in Variety. I saw that Hulu is adapting.

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Speaker 3: This into a series.

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Speaker 2: I am so thrilled.

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Speaker 3: So I need to ask how all this came about.

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Speaker 1: And of course you have the amazing Lee Daniels working

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Speaker 1: on the pilot with you too, writing as well.

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Speaker 3: So talk to me about that, because we got it.

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Speaker 1: If it's not enough, everything that you've accomplished, this is

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Speaker 1: just another notch in your belt.

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Speaker 4: I appreciate you, sus I mean it's you know, when

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Speaker 4: I was writing this book, I could see every scene

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Speaker 4: playing out in front of me, like absolutely really see

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Speaker 4: it cinematically, and I honestly I manifested. I was like,

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Speaker 4: you know what, I see this on screen, and I

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Speaker 4: see it as a TV show more than a movie.

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Speaker 2: I just see it.

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Speaker 4: And you know, it was sort of amazing how it

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Speaker 4: came about my book. You know, a book scout founded

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Speaker 4: and gave it to a really powerful Hollywood executive who

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Speaker 4: then gave it to Lee Daniels, and they both read

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Speaker 4: the book and they loved it, and then they both

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Speaker 4: came on you were to kind of produce with me,

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Speaker 4: and then we pitched it and we sold it, you know,

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Speaker 4: in the room to twentieth and then to Hulu. And

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Speaker 4: so now I'm in development on the TV adaptation of

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Speaker 4: If I Ruled the World with Lee Daniels at Hulu.

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Speaker 4: So that's a major I mean, it's it's really exciting.

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Speaker 3: I know, you like Champagne. I feel like we need something,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: You know, I like exactly, you know, I like pee

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Speaker 1: but no congratulations.

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Speaker 3: You know how amazing that is.

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Speaker 1: And you know how much people are gonna love to

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Speaker 1: when I'm telling you, like, anybody who's going to read

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Speaker 1: this book is going to be like, I cannot put

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Speaker 1: this down. But there's so many lessons I felt like

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Speaker 1: to be learned in it.

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Speaker 3: Also, oh, I appreciate that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's a page jarner, but it's also but

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Speaker 4: I wrote it very like I wanted it to be

400
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Speaker 4: juicy and wanted to be like a fun, escapist page turner,

401
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,359
Speaker 4: but I also wanted to address some really serious issues

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Speaker 4: that are important to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I just want to ask about advice

404
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Speaker 1: that you've gotten.

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Speaker 3: Because black girls don't sell magazines. That was one of it.

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Speaker 3: What are some things that people have told you in

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Speaker 3: your career?

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Speaker 1: They say, like, I can't believe somebody actually gave me

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Speaker 1: that advice.

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Speaker 3: I mean, so many things, so many things.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's just more like this.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's less about the advice for me, you know,

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Speaker 4: because honestly, like I have not.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of us that have listened to.

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Speaker 4: But the sort of you know, racial microaggressive advice I have,

416
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Speaker 4: you know, kind of taken a pass on.

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Speaker 2: But I've heard some crazy stuff. Yea.

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Speaker 4: I will tell you the second incident that I pulled

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Speaker 4: from real life and put into the book. I won't

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Speaker 4: name names at Harper's Bazaar, you know the staff, but

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Speaker 4: you know, I'll tell you the story briefly. You know,

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Speaker 4: when I was at Harper's, I was deput editor in

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Speaker 4: chief of Harper's Bazaar, and I was running a meeting

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Speaker 4: where we were talking about features and stories, you know,

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Speaker 4: kind of upcoming, and so I've kind of pitched I'll

426
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Speaker 4: pitch you. You know, you work on the ideas together,

427
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,560
Speaker 4: and I pitched the story about Alicia Keys. Alicia had

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Speaker 4: an album coming out.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember which one, and I knew it was

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Speaker 1: Alicia Keys when I read it in the book. She's

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Speaker 1: not that's not who was kind of based on not

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Speaker 1: at all, not at all.

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Speaker 3: Really, he's still alive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but it's not.

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Speaker 4: It's not at all based on It really isn't based

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00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,199
Speaker 4: on her at all. But that particular incident was just

437
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Speaker 4: she just happened to be the artist I was talking about.

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Speaker 1: I thought about that when in the it was a

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Speaker 1: new artist that was coming out, her album was supposed

440
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:25,639
Speaker 1: to drop.

441
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,680
Speaker 4: That's another artist, Yeah, yeah, exactly, So this you know, okay,

442
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,040
Speaker 4: so no, I promise you like these are not composites

443
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:33,480
Speaker 4: of people like these are really figured.

444
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 2: But the incident that happened to Harper's Bizarre, I was like, okay, well,

445
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:38,720
Speaker 2: Leica Keys has an album coming out.

446
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,200
Speaker 4: We could we could shoot her in a I don't

447
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,160
Speaker 4: know whatever I said, black and white jazz bar, whatever

448
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,439
Speaker 4: I said. And the person on the Harper's Bizarre staff

449
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,080
Speaker 4: at the time, and I'm the only black person in

450
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:49,399
Speaker 4: the room, needless to say, I think I might have

451
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:50,280
Speaker 4: been the only brunette.

452
00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,160
Speaker 2: Like it was so white, so.

453
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,399
Speaker 4: Anyway, So she looks at me, she goes, oh, And

454
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 4: we were working for the editor in chief at the time,

455
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,639
Speaker 4: was sort of notorious, like you know Glinda Bailey.

456
00:18:58,720 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 3: She was.

457
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 4: She was you know, I learned a lot from her,

458
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,639
Speaker 4: but she was a very difficult woman. But she was like,

459
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,479
Speaker 4: oh my god, I can yo listen, Alicia Keys is

460
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:07,560
Speaker 4: sober bor.

461
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 2: I mean, the only.

462
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 4: Way I could see Glenda, you're the editor in chief,

463
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,920
Speaker 4: you know, green lighting the story is if Alicia agreed

464
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 4: to be photographed in white face or something, and then

465
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:16,880
Speaker 4: she looks at me and she was like, oh.

466
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,840
Speaker 2: Excuse sorry, Amy.

467
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,720
Speaker 4: And so that actually happened to me in real life

468
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 4: when I was working in Harper's Bazaar, and I put

469
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 4: that into.

470
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,359
Speaker 1: That is a wild It was wild, and then there's

471
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,399
Speaker 1: no repercussions for somebody saying something, So there was no repercussions.

472
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 4: In fact, this woman, whose name I will not give you,

473
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,719
Speaker 4: went on to be quite successful in many black folks

474
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,720
Speaker 4: I know are.

475
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 2: Fans of hers.

476
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 1: It's interesting, not like I was having a conversation with

477
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 1: she probably wouldn't mind me saying her name, but I

478
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 1: won't with one of my friends. And she recently got

479
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,360
Speaker 1: scammed by somebody, and this person is still like out

480
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,640
Speaker 1: here doing things and she really wants to like put

481
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 1: it out there, but she's also like, I don't know

482
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:04,520
Speaker 1: if I want to.

483
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,119
Speaker 3: She's like, I don't want.

484
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 1: Other people to have to deal with what I had

485
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,439
Speaker 1: to go through with what this person did to me.

486
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 1: But at the same time, it also feels like we

487
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 1: kind of like in a way protect people that we shouldn't,

488
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 1: if that makes sense.

489
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,280
Speaker 4: I mean, for me, it's not about protecting this woman.

490
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 4: It's just, you know, I have calculus on the things

491
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 4: in my head and I'm always like, what's the win?

492
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 4: You know what I mean, like, actually, what's the win here?

493
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:29,159
Speaker 3: You know?

494
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 4: And you know it just it just never struck me

495
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:34,959
Speaker 4: as being And I'm also not messy.

496
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 2: No, I don't know. I mean, imagine Angela if you will,

497
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 2: all the stories.

498
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 4: My god, I'm not a messy person. You don't see

499
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 4: me out here like this person. That person is the

500
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 4: third I don't I don't, right, And I was like,

501
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 4: you know what, there's no win for me, and there's

502
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,680
Speaker 4: no point in bringing her.

503
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 2: Up to folks.

504
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like there's so many

505
00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,159
Speaker 1: times that like terrible things have happened to me, and

506
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: I really don't address it, like and it's a hard

507
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 1: kind of way to navigate through things because sometimes you

508
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 1: address things and they become bigger and then it becomes

509
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,240
Speaker 1: this whole big thing, and mentally it's like, why did

510
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 1: I even do that?

511
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 3: I don't feel like dealing with it.

512
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 1: When you things go away faster, I guess kind of

513
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:20,119
Speaker 1: when you don't.

514
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 2: And I don't want to talk about it a lot too.

515
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 4: It's like, right now it something it was like it

516
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 4: felt good to write about in the novel sort of cathartics.

517
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:27,879
Speaker 2: She knows who she is exactly.

518
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 3: I was the people in that room who she is.

519
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,360
Speaker 2: That's all I'm trying to say. You know who you are?

520
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 3: All right now. I want to talk about ESPN The Undefeated.

521
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 1: I just have to know just because at the time

522
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,919
Speaker 1: when you were what was your position there that you

523
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 1: were kind of like leading?

524
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 4: So I was, Yes, I was the managing geeder of

525
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,880
Speaker 4: the Undefeated. Yes that's true, and yes.

526
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 1: But before things kind of kicked off, Jason Whitlock was

527
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,920
Speaker 1: the person that they kind of had chosen to be

528
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 1: the and I can't even imagine what that must have

529
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,360
Speaker 1: been like. So I just want to know how did

530
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 1: that work out? Like, I know, he wasn't there for long, right,

531
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 1: but what happened there?

532
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 4: You know, I again, I'm not messy, you know what

533
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,880
Speaker 4: I mean. I've never spoken about this publicly, you know, you.

534
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 2: Know, it was a horrible experience.

535
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 4: It was a horrible experience, you know, on every level,

536
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 4: every imaginable level.

537
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 2: You know.

538
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,439
Speaker 4: I don't want to get into specifics because again, I

539
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 4: you know, I just don't want to. But you know

540
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 4: what you see of him on social media, he is

541
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 4: worse in person. He is worse to deal with, you know,

542
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 4: because just imagine all of that, and then there's a

543
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 4: really strong bully overlay to it, you know what I mean,

544
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 4: a sense of entitlement and a sense of you know,

545
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,400
Speaker 4: kind of self aggrandizement.

546
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: You know.

547
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 4: So it was it was a terrible experience, bottom line.

548
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,239
Speaker 1: All right, Let's move on to a good experience. Who

549
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: would you say was the most amazing person artist that

550
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: you've put on the cover of a magazine? As editor

551
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 1: in chief of Ebony, as editor in chief at Honey,

552
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: I just want to know who was would you say

553
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: was a delight? Oh?

554
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: There's so many.

555
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 4: Well, when I was editor in chief of Honey Magazine.

556
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 4: I gave Beyonce her first ever solo magazine cover, okay,

557
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 4: and I mean she is just the kindest, like loveliest person.

558
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 4: You know, her whole family is lovely. Miss Tina's lovely,

559
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 4: Evan Noel Show, her longtime pr rep is lovely.

560
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 3: So her.

561
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 4: Okay, decades now, she is lovely. And so that was

562
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 4: just a really good experience. But I've put so many

563
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 4: people on covers who I deeply admire.

564
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 2: I mean, the Obama's.

565
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 4: You know, I was fortunate enough to interview you know,

566
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 4: Michelle Obama in the no Longer You in the in

567
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 4: the East Wing that no longer exists.

568
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 3: That was an Ebony cover.

569
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 4: That was Ebony cover. I interviewed you know, President Obama

570
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 4: in the Oval Office.

571
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: Wow, that's sir, Oh that's amazing.

572
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 4: That was incredible. I mean, these are you know, these

573
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 4: are amazing people. And then there's so many artists that

574
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 4: I've put on covers that I admire. I meet everybody

575
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 4: from oh my god, like Jill Scott to Missy.

576
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: Elliott to you know, Eve.

577
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 4: I mean, I just can't even you know, there's there's

578
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 4: too many at this point to name, but I've been

579
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 4: really fortunate to meet some extraordinary individuals over my twenty

580
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:21,719
Speaker 4: years in media.

581
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 3: I just like those type of stories.

582
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: I like to hear, like the good, positive stories about

583
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: how somebody was amazing, because we always heard the bad

584
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: ones and those get amplified.

585
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 3: But then I know Mary Dblige, Oh.

586
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 4: My god, I love I mean, honestly, when Mary and

587
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 4: I first met, it took a minute for like her

588
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 4: to warm to me.

589
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: And she wasn't you know. This was early in her career, which.

590
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 3: I like when it takes people a little bited it.

591
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 3: It took a minute.

592
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 2: She wasn't too sure about me in the beginning. She

593
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 2: was like, I don't know.

594
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 4: But and then over the years, I've shot her so

595
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 4: many times, you know, done so many photo shoots with her,

596
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 4: and I mean, we have just really become so cool,

597
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 4: you know.

598
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's true.

599
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 4: It took it took a minute, and then you know,

600
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 4: she just became one of my most favorite people to

601
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 4: work with.

602
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: How does it work when somebody's upset about a story.

603
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 1: We see this play out in the book, and I

604
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: won't give away too much, but when they're the subject

605
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: of an in depth story, of course you can't tell

606
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: them how it's going to come out. They do an interview,

607
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: it's on the record. How does that has that happen

608
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: to you?

609
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 3: Where? And it has?

610
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: I feel like, oh yeah, and the long career that

611
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: you've had, that's had to have happened several times.

612
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 3: I've heard other people's stories. But how does that work

613
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 3: for you?

614
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 4: I mean, of course it happens, and it's it's you know,

615
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 4: it's terrible because you want people to be, you know, excited,

616
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 4: especially if the story is meant to be positive. But

617
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 4: you know, and I'll tell you this this little brief

618
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 4: story too. I mean little Kim who were very cool.

619
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 4: Now Kim and I are super cool, but you know,

620
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 4: back this was also in the Honey Days. She read

621
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 4: My Life Whiles in the Honey Offices off of a

622
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 4: story that I wrote about her, a cover story, and

623
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 4: I'll never forget. She came in at a look and

624
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 4: fly at a head to toe pink for a jumpsuit,

625
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 4: talking about how dare you?

626
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 2: I'm like, Kim girl.

627
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 4: We had a tape recorder betweet us and we were like.

628
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 3: You said it on the record. I have the tape.

629
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 4: But she was so upset about something I printed, you know.

630
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 4: But again, we're cool now, you know. I think at

631
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 4: the end of the day, I just want to be

632
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 4: a responsible journalist, and you want to make sure that

633
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 4: you did get the quote accurately.

634
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 2: You did, Do you have a backup to it?

635
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 4: You have your notes, you have your recordings, you know,

636
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 4: you have you other people that you've interviewed, your tertiaries,

637
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 4: you have everything that backs up what you're putting in

638
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 4: the story. So if somebody is upset, you can say, credibly, yeah,

639
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 4: but a you said it, be these other people said

640
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 4: you said it. See this third person saw it.

641
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? And so what you're gonna do.

642
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: I've heard stories from other journalists who have talked about

643
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: times when people have said things and interviews.

644
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 3: That perhaps they shouldn't have said. I remember and Lola.

645
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: You mentioned Lola, and I love that you use real

646
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: people who I actually even know. I remember Lola telling

647
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: me a story about an interview that she did, and

648
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 1: she was like, why would.

649
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 3: He say these things and do that?

650
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: And she used her own discretion to be like, well,

651
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: maybe I don't want to, you know, even put that

652
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: in there.

653
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 3: How does how do you?

654
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: Because I've also heard people say you cannot be friends

655
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: with the subjects of your you know, articles of your journalism,

656
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: because then it becomes like a different type of expectation

657
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: maybe that they have. How does that play out for

658
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: you as far as you being in this position where

659
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: you have to sit down talk to people, be objective,

660
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: but sometimes you do maybe have a friendship or do

661
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: you believe that you can't be friends with the artists?

662
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 3: You know, I.

663
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 4: Don't exactly believe that, because when I do sit down

664
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 4: with somebody, you know, I offer coverage, or when I

665
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 4: sent down to interview somebody and very clear like this

666
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 4: is you know, this is journalistic. You know the coverage, right,

667
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 4: so it's going to be objective, and this is, you know,

668
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 4: an objective story, right. But I'm cool with so many

669
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 4: people that I met over the years. I mean I

670
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 4: just am, because you know, when you spend time with somebody,

671
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 4: especially if it's like a cover shoot, you know back

672
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 4: in the magazine days, I mean, you spend a bunch

673
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 4: of time leading up to the cover she was talking about,

674
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 4: like the creative direction and the looks and the location

675
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 4: and all the things, and you get there and you're

676
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 4: in it for like at least a day, or two,

677
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 4: you know, and I'm a very hands on person in

678
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 4: those environments.

679
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: And so you get really cool with people.

680
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 4: So I can't say that I'm not you know, cool,

681
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 4: you know, friends with people that I've met over the years.

682
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 4: But I'm also, you know, a journalist and happened for

683
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 4: a long time, and so don't I don't sacrifice my

684
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 4: journalistic integrity for any kind of friendships.

685
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 3: Okay, No, that's fair enough.

686
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: My girl, Jazzmine Brand, she's always like, yeah, Jazzman's always

687
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: like when I first met her, she would not give

688
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: anybody her phone number. And I've heard other people who

689
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: own entertainments I'd say that, like, because people call you

690
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: all the time time to get you to take stories down,

691
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: which is a little different because the whole entertainment side

692
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: era is so different than the magazine era. What do

693
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: you think about where we are now when it comes

694
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: to print journalism, you.

695
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 4: Know, I think a couple of things. I think that

696
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 4: the magazine industry is obviously, you know, not anywhere nears

697
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 4: in ventual as it was. So my book, you know,

698
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 4: if I Ruled the World, is set in the heyday

699
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 4: of magazines. You know, when you really kind of understood

700
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 4: the power influence that they had, what a cover could

701
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 4: make or break an artist, or you know what I mean.

702
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 4: And I really wanted people to feel what it was

703
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 4: like to be in such an important industry, to you know,

704
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 4: to be in a high pressure environment to do something

705
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 4: that was so glamorous and yet so you know, high stakes.

706
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 4: But now there's it doesn't have the same feel to it,

707
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 4: of course, because magazines, you know, while still prestigious, have

708
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 4: nowhere near the level of importance that they used to have.

709
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 4: But I think that there's a return to print now.

710
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 4: I think if people are getting a little sick of

711
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 4: all the digital stuff and they want to go back

712
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 4: to some some analog things, and and I think there's

713
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 4: just going to be a sort of a return, but

714
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 4: maybe in a more niche way.

715
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that, because I think there's nothing

716
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: like seeing an actual magazine with your stuff, and it

717
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: kind of like there's nothing like hearing your song on

718
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: the radio. People can say, oh, streaming and you don't

719
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: even need that, but when you're listening to the radio

720
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: and you're like, you cannot tell me, a person does

721
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: not still want to hear this song on the radio,

722
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: just like a person does not want to see their

723
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: face on the cover of a magazine with a feature

724
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: inside exactly exactly.

725
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: I mean it's a sexy thing to have because also

726
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: there's nothing like a magazine shoot. I mean, don't really

727
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: do that in digital now.

728
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean people be like, do you have pictures

729
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 3: you could submit or.

730
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 4: Exactly exactly, but I mean like that, you know. But

731
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 4: we used to spend you know, like you know, so

732
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 4: much time on these covers and they were you know,

733
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 4: there would be sometimes conceptual we would have like beautiful

734
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 4: high end fashion photographers and high end makeup arts that

735
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 4: the glam skull would be impeccable and the sex will

736
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 4: be impeccable. We would build them sometimes and you know

737
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 4: what I mean, and so it would be just such

738
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 4: an entire production that you don't see in many other

739
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 4: quite expensive too, yes.

740
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 2: Very expensive.

741
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: And people still in the clothes like I'm gonna just

742
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: take that. So many times did they can not have

743
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: those shoes you know I worked for They were like,

744
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, all the clothes are gone. We were supposed

745
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: to return them, but what can I do about it?

746
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 3: Now?

747
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: This book is something that you've worked on and had

748
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: the concept for while you were at Honey Magazine, right,

749
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: is this when you first were like, I want to

750
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: do this book.

751
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 4: You know, I started thinking about when I was a Honey,

752
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 4: and I started writing it when I was at teen

753
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 4: People magazine. So when I was at teen People, I

754
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 4: was actually the first black woman to run a major

755
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 4: mainstream magazine in the country period. And it got and

756
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 4: it got me thinking about what it was like as

757
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 4: an editor to be in these white spaces and to

758
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 4: be in these black spaces. And the idea started to

759
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 4: percoly and I wrote about, you know, one hundred pages

760
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 4: back then, but I put it aside, in part because

761
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 4: I didn't have the creative bandwidth for many many years

762
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 4: to finish it, and in part because I don't really

763
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 4: think I knew what the story was about.

764
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: You know.

765
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 4: It was like when I first started writing, it was

766
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 4: about like, you know, a fun, plucky young lady, you know,

767
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 4: trying to become editor in chief of a magazine, you know.

768
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 4: But then it was only when I picked it back up,

769
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 4: like many years later, that I was like, actually, yes,

770
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 4: that's generally what the story is about, but it's really

771
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 4: about a woman who is you know, contending with like

772
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 4: the cost of ambition, who's trying to find her her

773
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 4: voice and become empowered, who's dealing with misogyny, who's dealing

774
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 4: with racism? So it's like it a page tern with

775
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 4: all those like you know, sexy glamour, but there's all

776
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 4: these like themes that I really want to explore. And

777
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 4: when I figured that out, the book, you know, kind

778
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 4: of took shape for me.

779
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: How much of that hundred pages you think you used?

780
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 3: Did you curl? Remember?

781
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,719
Speaker 1: Sometimes you go back and you're like, what was I

782
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: I hate like when I write stuff, I hate going

783
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: back to look at it later.

784
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 2: And that's what writing is.

785
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 4: I mean, writing is editing, And I mean I kept

786
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 4: a lot of it though I did, but I.

787
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: Went back and I rewrote it, do you know what

788
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: I mean?

789
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 4: So it's still a lot of what I first wrote,

790
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 4: but I added a prologue, I added characters, and there

791
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 4: probably was like not one single sentence from what I

792
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 4: wrote back in the day that I didn't touch in

793
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 4: some way when I was rewriting the book.

794
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: When you also think about the women that were kind

795
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: of like, you know, the editor in chief Lucinda, who

796
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: you guys called Lucifer or Barbara at Sugar magazine in

797
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: the book, and just how these women seem like, I

798
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: don't know if they had to be extra hardcore and

799
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: just that style of like being a boss kind of

800
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: you had to be quote unquote bitch, just as you know,

801
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: in order for people to respect you. Do you think

802
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: that that is something that's changed.

803
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 4: I mean, I know it changed for me because I

804
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 4: was never like that. I mean, I'm a not for nothing.

805
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 4: I'm a three time editor, you know, editor in chief

806
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 4: of national magazines, you know, and that I went on

807
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 4: to run you know, digital you know, brands for bet

808
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 4: the Creo and your name and studios. I mean, and

809
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 4: and I don't lead that way, you know what I mean.

810
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 4: I'm gonna have very high expectations of everybody I work with,

811
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:48,239
Speaker 4: but I also believe in bringing people up right and

812
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 4: making sure they have the tools and the information to

813
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 4: be successful to being invested in the success of the

814
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 4: people that you work with. And that is very different

815
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 4: from some of these characters that I would about it.

816
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, and Luisinda, I mean you the

817
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 4: editor in chief of that you know, kind of high

818
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 4: end mainstream magazine, and she definitely was not based on

819
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 4: Glenda Bailey at all. You know, Glenda is a very

820
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 4: very different kind of human being, but that sort of unyielding,

821
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 4: unforgiving sort of sense that you know, in order to

822
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 4: be the best, you.

823
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 2: Had to sort of like, you know, ring it out

824
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: of people.

825
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 4: I mean that is something that a lot of women

826
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 4: kind of felt that they had to do when they

827
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 4: reached the top. And I think for Barbara, the other

828
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,399
Speaker 4: character who runs New Voices Media, which is the parent

829
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 4: company of Sugar magazine, you know, she is a woman

830
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 4: operating in.

831
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 2: A man's world.

832
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 4: Or she's the CEO of this company, and she is

833
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 4: just like trying to be successful. She just you know,

834
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 4: she's an interesting character because you know, she's on one hand,

835
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 4: kind of an antagonist.

836
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 2: On the other hand, she wants Nikki.

837
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 3: To succeed, right, She wants the opportunity.

838
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 4: She wants my protagonist to succeed, but she needs her

839
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 4: to think about the bottom line and be successful financially,

840
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 4: and if she can't do that then that's a problem.

841
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 3: M hm.

842
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to say you're going on tour. Obviously,

843
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 1: we're kicking it off in Brooklyn at green Light Bookstore,

844
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: which I'm so honored. You're also going to be with

845
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: your fiance on one of your.

846
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: Steps, right, yes, I am. I'm so excited.

847
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 3: How was he during this process?

848
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 2: Oh girl, I'm so grateful for my man. I have

849
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: to tell you my man.

850
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 4: I mean he was like so supportive because I was

851
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 4: probably like this side of intolerable, Like I was just like,

852
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 4: can you bring me t you know, like completely like

853
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 4: just so focused on everything for the past three years.

854
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 4: I mean this is again people look at you know,

855
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 4: folcusing sort of glamorous you know, industries and what have you,

856
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 4: and you I don't think it's it's hard to describe

857
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 4: the work that goes into, you know, making some of

858
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 4: this stuff happen.

859
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: And you're Richard. Richard Brooks is my fiance. He's an actor,

860
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 2: and he is from Cleveland.

861
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 3: Shout out the Reasonable Doubt. You know I love that show.

862
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, exactly reasonable being Mary Jane. He was on

863
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: the original cast of Law and Order.

864
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 4: But you know he is from Cleveland, and so he's

865
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 4: actually given me my conversation partner for my event in

866
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 4: Cleveland's like your homegrown actor like coming on home, you know.

867
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 3: And me I like that. I think that's so cute.

868
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: I know, it's Okay, I'm super excited to see him

869
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: on tour too.

870
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

871
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: Well, I love that for you, and I love this

872
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: space that you're in. I know you went to Brown

873
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: University and you got your MFA at Columbia University. This

874
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: is kind of what you've been wanting to do. Clearly

875
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: is something that's been on your heart for such a

876
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: long time. Yes, because you had, like I said, conceieds

877
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: of it back in the honey days, the teen people days,

878
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: and now it's here.

879
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 3: I know. How do you feel?

880
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I feel so proud. I mean it's true.

881
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 4: I got MFA and master's in Fine Arts from Columbia

882
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 4: when I was in my twenties, and I thought that

883
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 4: I was going to spend my life writing novels. And

884
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 4: then I you know, needed to like want to eat

885
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 4: and have shelter, and so I, like, you know, got

886
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 4: a job. I was like, I fel like I can't

887
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 4: just be I need to actually have a paycheck, and

888
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 4: I started on this career media that I'm super proud of,

889
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 4: and I'm very grateful.

890
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 3: As you should be. I've always been set of yours.

891
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 4: I appreciate you, sir, I mean, just the opportunity to

892
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 4: represent communities that I care about and tell our stories

893
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 4: has been like the joint honor of my life. And

894
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:10,919
Speaker 4: now to be able to do it in a different way,

895
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 4: right in a way that represents my original dream of

896
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 4: creative writing. But to tell our stories through my creative writing,

897
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 4: I mean, it's indescribable. I'm oh, my god, You're gonna

898
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 4: make me cry. I'm proud, and I'm also excited for

899
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 4: this story, this book that I put so much heart

900
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 4: into to get.

901
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: Out there in the world.

902
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: And the timing is great because the fact that it's

903
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 1: already you know, gonna be We're waiting for this being developed.

904
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: It's a series on Hulu. That's a huge situation. Now, look,

905
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: I can't let you get out of here without some

906
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: journalistic questions about what's going on in the world today.

907
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: All right, So Kanye West, yesterday we talked about this

908
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 1: open letter in the Wall Street Journal that he wrote,

909
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: and he is saying that he's not expecting people to

910
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: forgive him, but he wants to earn people's forgiveness. And

911
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: he talks about his bipolar disorder, what he's been going through,

912
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: his accident that he had twenty five five years ago.

913
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: So what are your thoughts about what Kanye West the

914
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: path that he's on and what do you what do

915
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:08,240
Speaker 1: you think?

916
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: Girl?

917
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 3: So, because I posted it in my comments, I'm shambles.

918
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I will bring some of it

919
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 4: back to my personal experience, right. You know, my my amazing,

920
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 4: amazing nineteen year old son, who is a music producer

921
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 4: and is in you know, the second year of the

922
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 4: music program at Drugstol University. He has type one diabetes

923
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 4: and he also had very dramatic double jaw surgery a

924
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 4: couple of summers ago that was, you know, extreme trauma.

925
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 4: And I noticed in Kanye's letter that he referenced both

926
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 4: type one diabetes and he referenced, you know, his jaw surgery,

927
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 4: and he used that as an excuse for his rampant

928
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 4: anti Semitism, his betrayal of the black community, his online

929
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 4: you know, with systems and institutions and people who would

930
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 4: want to take us down.

931
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 2: And I'm I'm sorry, you know.

932
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 4: You just I just don't believe that you know, espousing

933
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 4: those kinds of values and those kinds of views is

934
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 4: is you know, stems from you know, the things that

935
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 4: he's saying that he has in the experiences that he's

936
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 4: had in life. It's just it's like people who are

937
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 4: you know, who are drunk, right, and they're like, Oh,

938
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 4: I called you the N word because I was drunk.

939
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 2: No, no, no, right, call me again.

940
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 4: Work because you're drunk, you call me in because that's

941
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 4: how you feel. And you know, the alcohol, you know,

942
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 4: sort of you know, decrease your ability to filter yourself.

943
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 4: So no, I don't forgive him, and I never will.

944
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: Oh shoot, okay, now next up, Tyra Banks. We saw

945
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: that Netflix is doing a series America's Next Top Model,

946
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: and she's going to be speaking out and kind of

947
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: like going back in time to what that period was, Like,

948
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: what did you think about America's Next Top Model? Because

949
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: I know, I do want to west this series to

950
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 1: see what's happening. But that was also a really hardest

951
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: time period, like we talked about earlier.

952
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, there's been so many clips that

953
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 4: have resurfaced, so wild, so wild, that you look back

954
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 4: on you're like, I forgot that that Actually.

955
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: In the trailer they're like, we're going to be a

956
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: different ethnicity now, I know, but you know what I.

957
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 2: Mean, it was a reality show.

958
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 4: I mean I think people forget that it was a

959
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 4: reality show, and you know, I think that she was

960
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 4: playing a character. And you know, in these reality shows,

961
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 4: you have to have a lot of extremes order for

962
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 4: them to be popular, you know. So I mean, I

963
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 4: do think that a lot of you know, the clips

964
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 4: that you're seeing that are resurfacing, and a lot of

965
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 4: things that were said on the show were in service

966
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 4: of this kind of reality show need that you know,

967
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 4: producers are telling you, Okay, yeah, you got to make

968
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 4: it more dramatic, you got to be more extreme, you

969
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 4: got to be more crazy. And so, you know, I

970
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 4: think I'm hoping that's what she's going to talk about

971
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 4: because I can only imagine the pressure that she was under, right,

972
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 4: you know, trying to make a show successful and it

973
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 4: was so incredibly successful and keeping it successful all those years.

974
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: Now, lastly, I want to ask you about everything that's

975
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: going on with the current administration. And so we see

976
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: some artists that are actually doing performances for Donald Trump

977
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: and people are upset about it. Okay, now I want

978
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 1: to get your thoughts on you know, people having different

979
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: You're looking at my face like, yeah, so I just

980
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 1: want to know what you think about some of these

981
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: artists and some of them in their alignment with Donald

982
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: Trump and you know, saying that they support him and

983
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: what he's doing, and really kind of not taking the

984
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: impact that this could have.

985
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 3: Seriously.

986
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 4: You know, I do miss the days when we could

987
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 4: have civil political disagreements, you know, in a way that

988
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 4: didn't evolve into nastiness.

989
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 2: Right.

990
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 4: I do miss those days, you know, And I wish

991
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 4: that we were in a period of time where somebody

992
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 4: could be a Republican and somebody could be a Democrat

993
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 4: and have a civil discourse between them in a way

994
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 4: that you felt wouldn't like destroy the very you know

995
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 4: that was also that was polite, but also wouldn't destroy

996
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 4: the very fabric of what this country I would say

997
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 4: was built on because it was built on slavery. But

998
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 4: it wouldn't destroy, you know, what we envisioned this country.

999
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: To be and what it could be.

1000
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 3: Right.

1001
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: And it's unfortunate because we are now in a bit of.

1002
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 4: An all or nothing, you know, kind of a moment

1003
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 4: in terms of you know, where we align ourselves and

1004
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 4: what's going on in the world, you know, and we're

1005
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 4: at we are within you know, a administration that you

1006
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 4: know is clearly, you know, espouses violent fascist you know ideology,

1007
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 4: and that violent fascist ideology is you know, predicated on

1008
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 4: you know, desire to control women, a desire to repress

1009
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 4: the rights of brown people, black and brown people, you know,

1010
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 4: a desire to kind of economically control this country in

1011
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 4: a way such that there is a desperate, under educated,

1012
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 4: you know, sick sort of poor kind of under class

1013
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 4: that's going to kind of keep this you know economy

1014
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 4: rolling as this rich getting so much richer, this huge divide,

1015
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 4: and that's exactly what's happening, right And so I think

1016
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 4: that it's unfortunate because there's a lot of intentional ignorance

1017
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 4: out there, you know, because of the way they're creatoring,

1018
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 4: they have created and will continue to creator the educational systems.

1019
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 4: So people don't have access to the right information, or

1020
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 4: don't and or don't have the analytical tools, you know,

1021
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 4: to be able to really see what's happening. You know,

1022
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 4: if people, if poor people, if if black and brown

1023
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 4: people in this country voted for their own best interests,

1024
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 4: then we would have such a different looking administration, we

1025
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 4: would have such a different looking country.

1026
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:42,720
Speaker 2: But unfortunately that's not what's happening.

1027
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: And I think there's so much misinformation when people were

1028
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: getting ready to vote just about you know, the I

1029
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: remember when he had this quote platinum plan and people

1030
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: really thought that was like a real plan.

1031
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 3: It was like, guys, this is not.

1032
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 4: It's not real, and that's you know, and then I

1033
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 4: think that, you know, it's it's unfortunate that, you know,

1034
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 4: this is also a very sexist country, you know, and

1035
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 4: you know.

1036
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 2: It was a it was a you know, it was

1037
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: a very tall order.

1038
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 4: I think unfortunately, you know, to expect that this country

1039
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 4: at that time, you know, was going to elect a

1040
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 4: woman of color.

1041
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 3: You know.

1042
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: Again, I always say that was the Yeah, it was

1043
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: a sexism was not going to allow that.

1044
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 3: We've seen that time and time again.

1045
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 4: And it's very unfortunate, you know. And I tried my

1046
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 4: level best. I wrote articles, I donated, I spoke about

1047
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 4: Kamala Harris.

1048
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 2: I did everything I could. But it was also an

1049
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 2: extreme uphill battle.

1050
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: And I think the other higher part, and as we

1051
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: talk about journalism, is that people have so much access.

1052
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: Everybody is an expert, and everybody can put out something

1053
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: whether or not it's true, and it can reach millions

1054
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 1: of people and people can believe it's true, and there's

1055
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: no type of standard for that.

1056
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

1057
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 4: I mean, everybody's got a megaphone, and you know, there's

1058
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 4: all these folks out there who are talking about all

1059
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 4: this this stuff that is not you know, hasn't been

1060
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 4: journalistically vetted, right, so there's no fact checking, and you're

1061
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 4: part of what your fascists, you know, administrations do is

1062
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 4: that they undermine the media, right, so they undermine trust

1063
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 4: in the media, and so there's then you know, no

1064
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 4: place where people can go that they feel that they

1065
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 4: can get accurate information.

1066
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: Even the media doesn't trust the media because the media

1067
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: is being controlled by what you can and can't say

1068
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 1: get ensued by the administration when.

1069
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: The media rolled over.

1070
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, the way in which you know, so

1071
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 4: many you know, legacy media organizations have rolled over to

1072
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 4: this administration is shameful.

1073
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it absolutely is.

1074
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 2: You know, we talk about politics.

1075
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: Okay, I do want to say there's also some sex

1076
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: scenes in there, so just some steamy sex scenes.

1077
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 2: Uh, I can write a sexy.

1078
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 3: A few of them.

1079
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: After you wrote the scenes where you're like we're your Khmer,

1080
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god. I was like, okay,

1081
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 1: it starts off steamy, but it continues throughout it. I

1082
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: just want to say that too. But just congratulations to you.

1083
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: Like I said, it was a book that I absolutely

1084
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: could not put down. I'm so happy that you finally

1085
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: were like, this is the time to do it, and

1086
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 1: it feels like it is the right time. Things happen

1087
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: in God's timing for a reason, and so just excited

1088
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: to be rolling this out with you. Later today we'll

1089
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 1: be in Brooklyn. I know it's going to be an

1090
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: amazing conversation. I feel like it's sold out.

1091
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 2: It is sold out.

1092
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 3: Okay, it is sold out.

1093
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 2: It is sold out.

1094
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 4: But my book is available for wherever you buy books online.

1095
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 4: You know, at almost any bookstore you can walk into,

1096
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 4: whether you want to buy it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble,

1097
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 4: a black owned bookstore.

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00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 2: You know, my book is out everywhere. And I'm super

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00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: excited for you guys to read the story.

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00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 3: You are going to love it, and I can't wait

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00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 3: to see it on a TV.

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00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: All right now, all right, Amy the Boys Barnett If

1103
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: I Ruled the World, which was not the original title.

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00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 4: It was not the original It was originally called Sugar,

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00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,399
Speaker 4: which is the name of the magazine that my protagonist

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00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 4: edits in the book, and I love the name sugar,

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00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, I was like,

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00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 4: if I ruled the world. I mean, obviously, it's such

1109
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 4: an iconic song from the era in which the book

1110
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 4: is set. And then there's also a little if you

1111
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 4: know you know thing in there where Lauren Hill, who's

1112
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 4: obviously on the song.

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00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: She was the first ever cover subject of.

1114
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 4: Honey magazine, okay, which was my first ever role as

1115
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 4: editor in chief.

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00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: So if you know you know period okay, I love that.

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00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: Thank you for the history of Honey. Listen, go to

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00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 1: the Schomberg. I feel like they have all the magazines,

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00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, if you ever have a chance to go,

1120
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: the library has like all the periodicals and everything, Like,

1121
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: if you ever have a chance to go and do

1122
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 1: that and just look at these covers, and I know

1123
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: you've also been showing people and telling some of the

1124
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: stories behind the covers that you've done.

1125
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 3: Just follow her.

1126
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: It's a great history lesson. It's a great lesson and

1127
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: culture and you're just an amazing person. So thank you

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00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: so much for being in the midst of a snowstorm.

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00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 4: I appreciate you, says I cannot wait for our conversation later.

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00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 3: Okay, love it. It's way up.