WEBVTT - Part One: Bread And Puppet: The Dawn of Giant Protest Puppets

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to Cool People to Do Cool Stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>You're a weekly podcast about puppets. I'm your host, Margaret Kilroy,

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<v Speaker 2>and this week I have a guest, and my guest

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<v Speaker 2>is Jamie Loftus.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>I should explain who you are. You're Wait, you do

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<v Speaker 2>so many things. Sixteenth minute of fame is the easiest

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<v Speaker 2>one to say because you are also a podcast host

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<v Speaker 2>on the same network as me, which is true. Sixteenth

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<v Speaker 2>minute of fame.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, let's stick with that. Yeah, sixteen fame.

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<v Speaker 2>Only thing you've done. We also have a producer named

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<v Speaker 2>Sophie Hi.

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<v Speaker 3>Sophie him Magpie Hi, Jamie Hi, Sophie.

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<v Speaker 2>And we have an audio engineer named Eva Hi Eva

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<v Speaker 2>Hi Eva.

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<v Speaker 3>I like that you looked up like you're like where

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<v Speaker 3>Eva lives, if it even lives in heaven? He is

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<v Speaker 3>up there.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I have another monitor that has the recording progress.

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<v Speaker 2>So when I look at the recording, which is what

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<v Speaker 2>Eva will be looking at, that is.

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<v Speaker 3>There he is.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that rocks.

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<v Speaker 1>I like Jamie's version better.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, absolutely, like I look up to heaven.

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<v Speaker 3>We're my editor's right.

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<v Speaker 2>Wait, but that's dark because he's very much alive. That's yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>We don't need to talk about Eva's mortality.

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<v Speaker 2>No, but someday. But that's as true. That's true Eva.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry to break this too. At one point, all

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<v Speaker 2>podcast editors must.

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<v Speaker 3>It's the new All dogs go to heaven. All podcast

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<v Speaker 3>editors good, also good to heaven.

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<v Speaker 2>Despite many of them doing terrible things to the world

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<v Speaker 2>by creating podcasts.

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<v Speaker 3>It's true. Actually, yeah, you might be stuck in purgatory.

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<v Speaker 3>You're doing a thoroughly neutral act.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, hosts go to hell. I'm sorry to say easy.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, you don't even need to think about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Really, No, I think that's the basis of most Christianity.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually is, podcast hosts go to help. I'm really well

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<v Speaker 2>versed in the Jamie Loftus. You occasionally perform, Yes, as

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<v Speaker 2>a performer. What are your opinions about puppets?

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<v Speaker 3>Ooh, okay. I like puppetry a lot. I guess I'm

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<v Speaker 3>pro puppet. I'm not pro unnecessary puppet. I think that

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<v Speaker 3>there's like nothing more insecure and unpleasant to me than

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<v Speaker 3>someone using a puppet on stage simply because they are

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<v Speaker 3>too nervous to be themselves on stage. I like when

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<v Speaker 3>someone uses a puppet that is additive to the act.

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<v Speaker 2>That makes sense.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a very thorough answer, but I think that it

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<v Speaker 3>describes how I feel.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, what about eighteen foot tall puppets? Yes, all right,

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<v Speaker 2>Well then you might like today's episode.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, oh, are you going to talk about the Broadway

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<v Speaker 3>production of Shrek?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I did first see this in New York City.

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<v Speaker 1>Two and a half minutes.

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<v Speaker 3>Well they have the dragon that are little shop. Oh

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<v Speaker 3>my god, I'm thrilled.

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<v Speaker 2>So for the past few months, I've been doing this

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<v Speaker 2>thing where all of the podcast episodes have been related

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<v Speaker 2>in one way or another, and I've been trying to

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<v Speaker 2>tell this story of the alter globalization movement, which was

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<v Speaker 2>the movement of movements that came together at the turn

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<v Speaker 2>of the twentieth century. The big famous thing that happened

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<v Speaker 2>is the Battle of Seattle in nineteen ninety nine, where

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<v Speaker 2>they shut down the World Trade Organization, And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's the battle against neoliberalism. We've talked about neoliberalism. We've

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<v Speaker 2>talked about the Zapatistas in Chiapas, we've talked about the

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<v Speaker 2>rise of the Black Bloc in Germany, and we've talked

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<v Speaker 2>about the Battle of Seattle in nineteen ninety nine. But

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<v Speaker 2>along the way, I talked about how giant puppets were

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<v Speaker 2>ubiquitous in the alter globalization movement. Really oh yeah, that

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<v Speaker 2>you could not walk down the street without tripping over

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<v Speaker 2>a puppet three times taller than you.

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<v Speaker 3>Fascinating.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and they were all very dramatic puppets. They are

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<v Speaker 2>like weeping women that are like held up by three puppeteers,

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<v Speaker 2>like as they like.

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<v Speaker 3>That makes sense because I feel like theater kids generally

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<v Speaker 3>have a tendency to join their resistance.

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<v Speaker 2>That's true.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's part of why the resistance can get so.

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<v Speaker 2>Loud, that's true. The same way that like marching bands

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<v Speaker 2>was like only a couple things as you can do

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<v Speaker 2>as an adult who really liked marching band, and the

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<v Speaker 2>primary one is Joined Protests. That is like the main outlet.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I said Ice Protests at a hotel a couple

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<v Speaker 3>of weeks ago, and yeah, there was a very enthusiastic

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<v Speaker 3>pop up brass section that they're like, I haven't taken

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<v Speaker 3>this out in years. Let's go like just oh, it

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<v Speaker 3>was nasty business, but it was great.

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<v Speaker 2>If you are listening and you are a band camp kid,

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<v Speaker 2>you should find a marching band and go join Ice protests,

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<v Speaker 2>and they absolutely change the tenor of what happening in

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<v Speaker 2>the street without diminishing the radicalness of it, instead encouraging.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's great. It's a very festive and effective way

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<v Speaker 3>to join a protest.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally, Although it can be if you get pepper

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<v Speaker 2>spray and arrested. At least there's good images as they

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<v Speaker 2>like pepper spray the tuba or whatever.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, Yeah, you will be held up as an

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<v Speaker 3>example of like they came for the tuba player.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I say nothing. Yeah, And one of the

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<v Speaker 2>things that happened is that they came for the giant puppets. Actually, ah,

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<v Speaker 2>but I am excited to tell this story about Giant

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<v Speaker 2>Puppets for a bunch of reasons, not the least of

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<v Speaker 2>which is that it ties together a lot of the

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<v Speaker 2>themes of the show. But also I don't get a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of chances to tell a pretty simple love story

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<v Speaker 2>on this show. And I can tie the rise of

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<v Speaker 2>Giant Puppets to a hippie couple who one of them

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<v Speaker 2>is still alive and the other person isn't, but like

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<v Speaker 2>who spent decades and decades together making.

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<v Speaker 3>Things, making pits, making puppets. That's wait, fat, what is

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<v Speaker 3>your history puppets? I be curious enough.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't have a lot of history of puppets, although

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<v Speaker 2>I will say after I finished the script, I ran

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<v Speaker 2>around my house telling everyone who's visiting and being like,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry everyone, I'm quitting everything I do to just

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<v Speaker 2>make giant puppets.

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<v Speaker 1>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>We just make giant puppets at the land. That's that's

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<v Speaker 2>what we do now.

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<v Speaker 3>I thought you were talking about like puppets is a

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<v Speaker 3>part of stand up, which just sends you right to

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<v Speaker 3>like Jeff Dunham's story, and it's like get them out.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>No, these are like dramatic feeder, like serious theater puppetry.

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<v Speaker 3>One of my college internships was at a puppet theater,

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<v Speaker 3>and like, though I don't know, I did it mainly

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<v Speaker 3>because I had a crush on the puppeteer that lived

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<v Speaker 3>on the top floor of the puppet theater.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh huh, the well adjusted person that you're about to describe.

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<v Speaker 3>Good old Brad. But you know, while I did not

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<v Speaker 3>get Brad's attention, I did learn puppet folks are good vibes.

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<v Speaker 2>I have tended to think. So my own history puppets

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<v Speaker 2>is that I went to a lot of these protests,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was a little bit busy being like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>we got to accomplish the following things while wearing all black.

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<v Speaker 2>But I loved the theater that was happening kind of

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<v Speaker 2>everywhere around. And then also, well, I went to a

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<v Speaker 2>radical puppet show before I became politically radical in New

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<v Speaker 2>York City. I went to a show put on by

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<v Speaker 2>Today's Guests. No, you're the guests. I was like, us, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I actually a billion of time machine. I went to

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<v Speaker 2>a show put on by Bread and Puppet. Have either

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<v Speaker 2>of you all ever heard of Bread and Puppet? No, nope,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm excited to tell you about Bread and puppett.

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<v Speaker 3>This is great.

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<v Speaker 2>The shortest version is that a bunch of hippies on

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<v Speaker 2>the Lower East Side of Manhattan, especially this particular couple,

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<v Speaker 2>got together and made giant puppets and did street theater

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<v Speaker 2>and did community theater in the late sixties, and they

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<v Speaker 2>had radical politics interwoven throughout the entire thing. And then

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<v Speaker 2>they moved to Vermont and then they became cool hippies,

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<v Speaker 2>and their theater troupe still performs all over the world,

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<v Speaker 2>and they've inspired so much radical theater that it's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of hard to track.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>I did a while trying to track their influence, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh no, they just was this well spring

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<v Speaker 2>of political theater done with giant puppets. So the simplest

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<v Speaker 2>version is the thing I just related. But I want

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<v Speaker 2>to do the version that goes back fifty years and

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<v Speaker 2>starts with someone's grandparents. Incredible because these people come from

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<v Speaker 2>a lineage.

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<v Speaker 3>Are they puppet Nepo?

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<v Speaker 2>No, they're radical NEPO. I can accept that, but spread

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<v Speaker 2>across a bunch of countries, but in complicated ways.

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<v Speaker 3>Cool.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the founders of Bread and Puppet is the

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<v Speaker 2>woman who Okay, this is going to be the big reveal.

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<v Speaker 2>The big shocking thing is that when people talk about

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<v Speaker 2>Bread and Puppet, they mostly talk about the guy who

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<v Speaker 2>runs it ugh. And you will be absolutely flabbergasted to

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<v Speaker 2>realize that his wife, who is not necessarily equal part

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<v Speaker 2>of all the creative things, but made the entire thing

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<v Speaker 2>happen through labor. That somehow it's hard to imagine labor

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<v Speaker 2>being invisible. Ye absolutely, but I think that that sometimes happens.

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<v Speaker 3>Are you saying a woman did everything and no one

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<v Speaker 3>cared what, what what?

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<v Speaker 2>And I will caveat that even though the man I'll

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<v Speaker 2>describe it a little bit, is always centered in the

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<v Speaker 2>conversations around Bread and Puppet. I don't believe he wrote

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<v Speaker 2>his wife Elka.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, story that's always frustrating to encounter. And I always

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<v Speaker 3>appreciate when in a dynamic like that, you know, the

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<v Speaker 3>man's like, hey, appreciate the positive feedback. But Elsa's a

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<v Speaker 3>bender the whole time, Like I don't know, it's hard.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, and like it's kind of funny because I

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<v Speaker 2>realized after writing a script that a bunch of people

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<v Speaker 2>I know have like worked with Bread and Puppett, and

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<v Speaker 2>I just I am working off of written sources primarily,

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<v Speaker 2>so I don't know as much about people's personalities and

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<v Speaker 2>how they interacted besides like what I been able to

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<v Speaker 2>glean from interviews and things like that. But I want

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about Elka and start with her because I

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<v Speaker 2>actually think her background is more interesting. No offense, the

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<v Speaker 2>man who might actually be listening to this because he's

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<v Speaker 2>still alive, Alco.

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<v Speaker 3>She's listening in podcast Heaven that we made up.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah that is, yes, absolutely, podcast even is the subjects

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<v Speaker 2>of POC No wait, most podcasts are about bad things anyway.

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<v Speaker 3>Well your podcast subjects go to podcast heaven.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, I'll go to heaven. So Elka Lee Scott

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<v Speaker 2>Schumann is a third generation leftist. Her grandparents co wrote,

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<v Speaker 2>or rather her grandfather and his grandfather's wife, and then

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<v Speaker 2>she gets left out of the story.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, family tradition, it doesn't happen elsewhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they co wrote one of the core books that

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<v Speaker 2>inspired the back to the Land movement of the sixties

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<v Speaker 2>and early seventies. WHOA, So this is her grandparents or

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<v Speaker 2>her grandfather and her grandfather's second wife wrote this. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>but we're actually gonna start with her grandfather. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>man named Scott Nearing who is a regionally major player

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<v Speaker 2>in leftist politics. Like he has a Wikipedia page in

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<v Speaker 2>Elka doesn't, right, okay, and this is her grandfather. Throughout

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<v Speaker 2>the early twentieth century, he was like one of those

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<v Speaker 2>names that would be known at the time that doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>really get passed on, or at least I hadn't ever

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<v Speaker 2>run across it before. He's a kind of classic American

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<v Speaker 2>radical guy from this period. He's born in the eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighties in Pennsylvania. He is rich as shit. His grandfather

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<v Speaker 2>ran the coal company in town. But Scott as in

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteenth century became a vegetarian, pacifist, socialist, feminist. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>so if you're gonna be richish shit, you might as

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<v Speaker 2>well do some of that, you know, may.

0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.560
<v Speaker 3>As well do it as ethically as you're able to.

0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:53.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. He first rose to prominence when he was let

0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.240
<v Speaker 2>go from the university he taught in in nineteen fifteen

0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:57.320
<v Speaker 2>for being too rattle.

0:11:57.559 --> 0:11:59.240
<v Speaker 3>Was it the vegetarianism?

0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:04.720
<v Speaker 2>I am constantly surprised by the like deep history of

0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:06.760
<v Speaker 2>like I say, this is a vegan, the kind of

0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:11.160
<v Speaker 2>annoying vegans. It have always been part of leftist politics. Yes,

0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.480
<v Speaker 2>that part never gets like focused on necessarily, right, He's

0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:16.559
<v Speaker 2>like mostly known as a socialist and a hippie back

0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:17.719
<v Speaker 2>to the lander, you.

0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.760
<v Speaker 3>Know, I do like the concept of that somehow being

0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:21.560
<v Speaker 3>the last straw.

0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:23.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So they finally let him go because they're like,

0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.400
<v Speaker 2>you're not gonna eat the fucking eggs because they said vegetarian,

0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:27.920
<v Speaker 2>but he is, actually I believe it is vegan.

0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:28.679
<v Speaker 3>Are you serious?

0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.600
<v Speaker 3>And I should be ashamed that I'm eating my egg Yeah.

0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, totally. He's like, I didn't say that, And

0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:36.720
<v Speaker 2>they're like so you think I should hate myself.

0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:37.640
<v Speaker 3>I didn't say that.

0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.199
<v Speaker 2>I just don't want to eat it, Like, oh, you

0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:45.520
<v Speaker 2>fucking vegan. I didn't say anything. I don't know. Maybe

0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.000
<v Speaker 2>there's a dick about it. I don't actually know.

0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.920
<v Speaker 3>Could be a professor projection though, Like, you think you're

0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.520
<v Speaker 3>so much fucking better than me, don't you. That's like

0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:56.559
<v Speaker 3>my uncle's attitude towards veganism. You're just like, no, they

0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.800
<v Speaker 3>don't leave them alone. They don't think about it.

0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.079
<v Speaker 2>I want to eat a messy doug. It's fine, Yeah,

0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't care at all. I wouldn't be able to

0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:08.520
<v Speaker 2>get up in the morning if I like.

0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:13.319
<v Speaker 3>Them A thousand uncles on your chest, like, and.

0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:18.439
<v Speaker 2>So they kick him out and people rise up to

0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:20.600
<v Speaker 2>defend him, and like you can't kick him out, and

0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:22.920
<v Speaker 2>soon enough he joins the Socialist Party and then the

0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:27.160
<v Speaker 2>Communist Party. He traveled around, including to the USSR, but

0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.240
<v Speaker 2>he was like, actually, I don't think I like the

0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:32.560
<v Speaker 2>USSR very much. In the nineteen twenties, and in nineteen

0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:34.800
<v Speaker 2>thirty they kicked him out of the Communist Party for

0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.160
<v Speaker 2>he like wrote some article but he didn't follow the

0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.560
<v Speaker 2>party line. And they were the Communist party, so they

0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:43.640
<v Speaker 2>kicked him out. He took his hefty inheritance and he

0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:45.840
<v Speaker 2>bought a big old farm and he got really into

0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.080
<v Speaker 2>hopesteading and vegan organic gardening. And this isn't the like

0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.880
<v Speaker 2>early thirties and twenties, I think nice. He and his

0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.280
<v Speaker 2>second wife, Helling Nearing, liked to pretend that they were

0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.440
<v Speaker 2>self sufficient with their farm, but it was actually just

0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:01.480
<v Speaker 2>their hairds that paid for it.

0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:03.440
<v Speaker 3>Wow, this is a tradwife model.

0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. And I actually do think this kind of

0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:08.199
<v Speaker 2>like belaze a lot of the lies in the back

0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.120
<v Speaker 2>of the Land movement. I say, this is someone who

0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:14.720
<v Speaker 2>intentionally moved out to the country. But these folks with

0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.200
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of inheritances wrote a book together called Living

0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.240
<v Speaker 2>the Good Life, How to Live simply and sanely in

0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:21.200
<v Speaker 2>a troubled world.

0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:27.400
<v Speaker 3>Okay, they're like influencers. Yeah, They're like Barnes and Noble influencers.

0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because once the back of the Land movement gets big,

0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.880
<v Speaker 2>hippies start making kind of a pilgrimage to their homestead

0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:38.160
<v Speaker 2>to like learn from them and stuff. So I feel

0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.720
<v Speaker 2>like they like influencer tradwife culture. They're stealing that from socialists.

0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:45.280
<v Speaker 3>That's what I have to say, one of their many crimes. Yeah, no,

0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.880
<v Speaker 3>they're only crime, You're right, right, No, no, no otherwise.

0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:54.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, everything else, that's fine. So this is granddad. Scott

0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.240
<v Speaker 2>Nearing had a son. I'm going to trace all these motherfuckers.

0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.560
<v Speaker 2>Scott Nearing had a son named John Scott, who actually

0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:02.480
<v Speaker 2>I think was originally a Nearing, but he didn't like

0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:03.880
<v Speaker 2>his dad. By the end of his life, we changed

0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.520
<v Speaker 2>his name to his dad's first name. Yeah, I know,

0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:08.800
<v Speaker 2>it's weird. I it couldn't.

0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:09.960
<v Speaker 3>I didn't know you could do that.

0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.880
<v Speaker 2>All right, do whatever you want with names. Well, not sure,

0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:15.960
<v Speaker 2>probably now now.

0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:17.400
<v Speaker 3>But it's nice to remember.

0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:23.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, John Scott is a second generation radical. His father

0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.240
<v Speaker 2>was like, actually, the USSR isn't so great, But John

0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.280
<v Speaker 2>Scott's like, no, they're doing the revolution. So he dropped

0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.600
<v Speaker 2>out of college to move to the USSR in the

0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:32.520
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirties.

0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:35.600
<v Speaker 3>Okay, okay, how'd it go?

0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, it actually wasn't great to be a communist in

0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.720
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen thirties Russia. It actually turns out.

0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:43.520
<v Speaker 3>I thought I was going to turn out different for him.

0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.960
<v Speaker 2>That's yeah, he survives, Okay, although it becomes a dick

0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:48.920
<v Speaker 2>but we'll talk about that.

0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:49.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.880
<v Speaker 2>So he's eager to help build the glorious Bolshevik Revolution,

0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.120
<v Speaker 2>and he gets a job as I think he's doing

0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.480
<v Speaker 2>some like engineering stuff, but he's also a steel worker

0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.040
<v Speaker 2>I think at the end of the day. And he

0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.600
<v Speaker 2>marries a Russian woman named Maria Ivanova and they have

0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.240
<v Speaker 2>two kids, including Elka, who was born in the Soviet Union.

0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:10.920
<v Speaker 2>As we've talked about extensively on the show, the most

0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:16.200
<v Speaker 2>ideologically communists were among Stalin's main enemies. Stalin got paranoid

0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.320
<v Speaker 2>about the internationalists, all the people who'd moved to the

0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.440
<v Speaker 2>USSR to be steel workers and shit, he was like,

0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:25.200
<v Speaker 2>those are the enemy inside. All the people who were

0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:27.640
<v Speaker 2>like I love the USSR so much, I'm lieving America

0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:29.760
<v Speaker 2>to go there. He's like, that's the real fucking enemy.

0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:30.480
<v Speaker 3>Get rid of them.

0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So John Scott and a bunch of other people

0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.120
<v Speaker 2>lost their jobs. Their family moved to Moscow and he

0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.200
<v Speaker 2>got work as a journalist, and he did not keep

0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 2>his mouth shut, and he wrote a piece critical of

0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Stalin and the family had to flee the country and

0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.640
<v Speaker 2>their ship left port just hours before the Nazis betrayed

0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:48.920
<v Speaker 2>their alliance with Stalin and invaded the USSR.

0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:50.480
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:55.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that's Elka's childhood, right.

0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:01.320
<v Speaker 3>Honestly, it's like whatever coping mechanism you need, Alka, Yeah,

0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.560
<v Speaker 3>giant puppets, yea, right, no worries.

0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:09.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So she's only a few years old, she's already

0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:13.320
<v Speaker 2>had to flee both Stalin and Hitler. And the family

0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.359
<v Speaker 2>makes its way to America, first to a farm in

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Pennsylvania and with like family friends, and then at Greenwich

0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:22.719
<v Speaker 2>Village in New York City. And she grows up speaking

0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.280
<v Speaker 2>both Russian and German, and home and young Alka grows

0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.840
<v Speaker 2>up obsessed with the arts and social justice and leftist politics.

0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:32.720
<v Speaker 2>As a teenager, she would go work as a social

0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:37.159
<v Speaker 2>worker in low income neighborhoods. And she decided to do

0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:41.640
<v Speaker 2>her junior year college abroad in Munich, West Germany. And

0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.720
<v Speaker 2>the problem is that West Germany, of course was capitalist,

0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.639
<v Speaker 2>and so therefore they had ads just like us, unlike

0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.200
<v Speaker 2>glorious Russia, where you just get murdered instead.

0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:55.560
<v Speaker 3>Wow, what an incredible, incredible.

0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:56.960
<v Speaker 2>I should have been hired to do the Cold War.

0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:04.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm always saying that there are people who basically whatever anyway,

0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:13.320
<v Speaker 2>So here's the advertisers that support this podcast, and we're back.

0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.119
<v Speaker 2>So she goes to West Germany to Munich. This is

0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.560
<v Speaker 2>nineteen to fifty five, and she meets the man who

0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.080
<v Speaker 2>is usually presented as the main character of the Bread

0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:26.520
<v Speaker 2>and Puppet story, and he is the creative head of it,

0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.639
<v Speaker 2>a German Bohemian man. When I say Bohemia, I don't whatever.

0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:32.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean what people think, not that he's from Bohemia,

0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:33.880
<v Speaker 2>which is nearby.

0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.560
<v Speaker 3>We're talking about, Like he's wearing kind of silly pants.

0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:38.959
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's a proto hippie.

0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:40.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:45.960
<v Speaker 2>And she meets this man, Peter Schumann, and she meets

0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.480
<v Speaker 2>him I think in the hospital. I've read a couple

0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:52.280
<v Speaker 2>different of their meetcutes, and I don't entirely understand why

0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:54.159
<v Speaker 2>she's in the hospital, but I know why he's in

0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.600
<v Speaker 2>the hospital. He is in the hospital because he had

0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:00.399
<v Speaker 2>been out trying to recruit people for his experimental dance

0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.399
<v Speaker 2>troop ooh, and he needed to do that by riding

0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:04.000
<v Speaker 2>a bicycle.

0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:07.400
<v Speaker 1>I want to be in an experimental dance troupe.

0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.400
<v Speaker 2>And he got into a bike accident and almost died.

0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:18.120
<v Speaker 3>You think you do Experimental dance troup TV has probably

0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.400
<v Speaker 3>the same energy of like an experimental comedy group. If

0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.440
<v Speaker 3>it's anything similar, everyone's fucking each other and no one

0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:28.280
<v Speaker 3>speaks five years from now. Also, it's like improv sort of,

0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.240
<v Speaker 3>but a little bit cooler, a little better, and dancing

0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.960
<v Speaker 3>as much. Yeah. Yeah, I'm very anti improv.

0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Fair enough, Well, I probably would have wanted to join

0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:40.760
<v Speaker 2>his dance troupe. That would have been fun.

0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:41.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.000
<v Speaker 3>Well, especially because it's like I'm imagining, everyone's in their twenties.

0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.679
<v Speaker 3>It's just a bunch of hot twenty something's dancing around.

0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:47.840
<v Speaker 3>Hell yeah, who.

0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.440
<v Speaker 2>All survived World War Two as children in Germany?

0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.760
<v Speaker 3>Again, whatever you guys need, whatever you need, gess it out.

0:19:55.280 --> 0:20:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they fall in love Elka and Peter, and Elka

0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.640
<v Speaker 2>takes a year off of school. This is my favorite part,

0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:05.679
<v Speaker 2>just because I identify with this so hard to go

0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.919
<v Speaker 2>hitchhike around Germany bringing her loot with her, and the

0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.560
<v Speaker 2>two of them bringing woodcuts to sell. Wow, they're both

0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:13.560
<v Speaker 2>woodcut artists.

0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.040
<v Speaker 3>You are of them? Yes?

0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:19.600
<v Speaker 2>I love that there's a lineage that I can point

0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:24.520
<v Speaker 2>to of Google's a word that no one knows what means.

0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.919
<v Speaker 2>But people traveling around with instruments and whatever shit they

0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:28.640
<v Speaker 2>can sell.

0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:31.240
<v Speaker 3>All that rocks her lut.

0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:34.679
<v Speaker 2>I know she does a lot of the music stuff

0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.000
<v Speaker 2>for all of the things that go through. She's obsessed

0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.359
<v Speaker 2>with music and do just like really amazing stuff awesome. Peter,

0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.800
<v Speaker 2>for his part, was born in Germany and he started

0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.240
<v Speaker 2>making bread. Bread and Puppet is actually just as famous

0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.240
<v Speaker 2>for giving out bread. And I forgot to say that

0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.480
<v Speaker 2>part in the short version they give out a rye

0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:55.119
<v Speaker 2>sour dough loaf that is pretty that rocks. Yeah, hippies

0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:57.760
<v Speaker 2>were into some like crunchy bread. You know sure.

0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.760
<v Speaker 3>I just anytime that like us is involved in the production,

0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:03.280
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, yeah, I'm in.

0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:05.200
<v Speaker 2>They didn't coin that. I'm sure people have been doing

0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:07.879
<v Speaker 2>that forever, but that is like their thing is like

0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:09.720
<v Speaker 2>bread and Puppet, you get both.

0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:13.200
<v Speaker 3>That's brilliant because I do feel like, you know, whether

0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.080
<v Speaker 3>you're into the performance or not, I will be thirty

0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:19.080
<v Speaker 3>percent more amenable to what's happening in front of me,

0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:21.399
<v Speaker 3>at least if you give me a snack.

0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:23.760
<v Speaker 2>See this actually makes sense because there's this way of

0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:25.800
<v Speaker 2>when you run into a problem with your book and

0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.000
<v Speaker 2>you don't know what the plot should do, and you're

0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:29.400
<v Speaker 2>like writing a book and you don't know what plot

0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:31.320
<v Speaker 2>should do. There's a tried and true method that I

0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.000
<v Speaker 2>learned from a webcomic and I don't remember the author

0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.800
<v Speaker 2>of the webcomic, and I'm deeply sorry. Where you go

0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.440
<v Speaker 2>and you find a friend and you give them snacks

0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:41.679
<v Speaker 2>and then you explain the plot of your book. The

0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.880
<v Speaker 2>friend does not react. The friend just eats the snacks,

0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:47.800
<v Speaker 2>and you work through on all the problems while talking

0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:49.520
<v Speaker 2>to them, and they get snacks.

0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:52.440
<v Speaker 3>I love that. Yeah, that does work.

0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:54.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the very effective method.

0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:57.200
<v Speaker 3>There is no resentment sewn between the two of you.

0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:01.560
<v Speaker 3>You've both forgotten something. Yeah, exactly, because what his friendship

0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:05.040
<v Speaker 3>if not a beautiful, complicated transaction of feelings.

0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:09.280
<v Speaker 2>So he starts making bread with his mother when he's

0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:14.200
<v Speaker 2>six in Germany, and sourdough rye bread was the common

0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:17.160
<v Speaker 2>people's food of Germany at this time, and Germany wasn't

0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.359
<v Speaker 2>doing real well throughout the twenties thirties forties, and I

0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:23.000
<v Speaker 2>don't actually know when they turned it around, but twenties

0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:25.360
<v Speaker 2>thirties forties not a good time to be in Germany.

0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:29.520
<v Speaker 2>So his whole life until now, basically, yeah, sourdough rye

0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.920
<v Speaker 2>is his thing. And when his family is ten, they

0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.480
<v Speaker 2>live in a part of Germany that the Allies are

0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:39.359
<v Speaker 2>bombing and the Russian tanks are invading and it's not

0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:42.040
<v Speaker 2>safe to live there, and they become internally displaced refugees.

0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:44.919
<v Speaker 2>And so they moved to a small village in Germany

0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:47.680
<v Speaker 2>near Denmark. And he can only bring one bag with him,

0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:50.200
<v Speaker 2>so he brought a bag full of puppets.

0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:53.679
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, I hope he brought a sourdough starter.

0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:55.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, his mom has that.

0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:59.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's that's a mommy back thing. Wow, that's really wow.

0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:01.520
<v Speaker 3>This is like a Pixar.

0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:03.800
<v Speaker 2>Movie, I know, although there's going to be a remarkably

0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:05.919
<v Speaker 2>non Pixar actually an old school Disney move in one

0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:06.399
<v Speaker 2>a second.

0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:07.200
<v Speaker 3>Nice.

0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:10.560
<v Speaker 2>So they're internally displaced and they're dirt poor, and they're

0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:12.720
<v Speaker 2>like all the other refugees. They're living off of gleaning

0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.280
<v Speaker 2>the field for like little bits of whatever they can get,

0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:19.200
<v Speaker 2>and they make sourdough rye bread and spread elderberry and

0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:21.360
<v Speaker 2>rose hip jam on it because that's what they can

0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:23.440
<v Speaker 2>pick by the side of the road, or elderberry's and

0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:27.199
<v Speaker 2>rose hips. It also means so he's German. This is

0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:30.920
<v Speaker 2>World War two, his first public performance. There's some dots

0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:32.800
<v Speaker 2>people don't connect when they tell this story, and I'm

0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:34.840
<v Speaker 2>just gonna connect the dots because I'm rude. I actually

0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:38.240
<v Speaker 2>like this man. But his first public performance as a

0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:40.520
<v Speaker 2>puppeteer was when he was eleven, and he is a

0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:43.040
<v Speaker 2>refugee and he goes and puts on a puppet show

0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:44.440
<v Speaker 2>for the German soldiers in town.

0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:49.240
<v Speaker 3>Was this show about Magpie?

0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:51.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't actually know what it was about, but it's

0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:53.400
<v Speaker 2>for Nazis? He went his first public performance was.

0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:56.040
<v Speaker 3>For not was for Nazi Okay, yeah, unless.

0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:58.080
<v Speaker 2>There's a small chance the war had ended by that point.

0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:01.400
<v Speaker 2>But it's nineteen forty five, Like there's a small chance that.

0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:04.000
<v Speaker 3>But anyway, look, Peter, there's still time to set the

0:24:04.040 --> 0:24:06.919
<v Speaker 3>record straight. Yeah yeah, Or did you not perform for

0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:08.360
<v Speaker 3>Nazis at age ten?

0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:12.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Because this does not in any way influence this

0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:15.520
<v Speaker 2>man's politics, like at all.

0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:19.520
<v Speaker 3>If anything, you performed for Nazis under duress, But we

0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:22.920
<v Speaker 3>would like the record string. Yeah, this is a silly connection.

0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:26.760
<v Speaker 3>But did you see the Del Toro animated interpretation of

0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:28.760
<v Speaker 3>Pinocchio that came out a few years.

0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:30.640
<v Speaker 2>I haven't, which is funny because I really like Del Toro.

0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:36.000
<v Speaker 3>It's terrific. It's very characteristically, it's very very intense. But

0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:41.280
<v Speaker 3>in that I believe that Pinocchio performs for Mussolini. WHOA

0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:45.000
<v Speaker 3>I mean think if I'm remembering correctly.

0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:47.040
<v Speaker 2>Anyone who's listening who's mad at an eleven year old for

0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:49.600
<v Speaker 2>doing this has not thought this through. No, It's like,

0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:51.199
<v Speaker 2>here's like, no one's actually upset.

0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:56.600
<v Speaker 3>I'm saying, if the Peter performing for Nazis at age ten,

0:24:56.640 --> 0:25:01.400
<v Speaker 3>allegations are true, Pinocchio did it. Pinocchio performed from right.

0:25:01.520 --> 0:25:03.359
<v Speaker 3>It's true there were kids.

0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:05.760
<v Speaker 2>And for a glow up. The most recent interview I've

0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:07.680
<v Speaker 2>read with this man is from a couple months ago,

0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:10.440
<v Speaker 2>in twenty twenty five, and he is ninety one years old,

0:25:11.000 --> 0:25:16.520
<v Speaker 2>screaming about how important Palestine is. Incredible, Like God, yeah,

0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:19.080
<v Speaker 2>So Alka and Peter together now, and the pair of

0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:23.080
<v Speaker 2>them are bumbing around Germany for a while, and Elka

0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:25.720
<v Speaker 2>goes back home to the States after a year, finishes

0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:28.240
<v Speaker 2>college and then goes right back to Germany to be

0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:31.199
<v Speaker 2>with Peter. And I think that's sweet. I like that

0:25:31.240 --> 0:25:33.360
<v Speaker 2>she like had to figure out some stuff for herself,

0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:36.600
<v Speaker 2>and also like I guess, just so mad about how

0:25:36.600 --> 0:25:39.479
<v Speaker 2>this narrative could easily just be told on Peter about

0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:42.560
<v Speaker 2>but it's like largely them figuring things out together and

0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:45.719
<v Speaker 2>not deemphasizing Elka's agency like all throughout it.

0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:48.639
<v Speaker 3>So I feel like that's a classic indicator of a

0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:52.480
<v Speaker 3>healthy relationship. It's like, Yeah, she doesn't drop her entire

0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:56.200
<v Speaker 3>life right now, Like she goes to, yeah, do whatever

0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:56.679
<v Speaker 3>she used to do.

0:25:56.920 --> 0:25:59.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and he's gonna move to like to help her

0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:01.640
<v Speaker 2>with her career or later he's gonna like anyway, we'll

0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:05.040
<v Speaker 2>get to that. By nineteen sixty, the pair moved to

0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:07.680
<v Speaker 2>the United States together with two kids in tow and

0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:10.600
<v Speaker 2>they moved to the Lower East Side of Manhattan, which

0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:13.000
<v Speaker 2>at the time was the center of a growing counterculture

0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:16.800
<v Speaker 2>and was also coincidentally an affordable place to live. And

0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:18.760
<v Speaker 2>so you can kind of get away with being a

0:26:18.760 --> 0:26:19.399
<v Speaker 2>weird artist.

0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:21.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:23.400
<v Speaker 2>I've actually talked a bit on the show before about

0:26:23.400 --> 0:26:25.360
<v Speaker 2>the theater and arts movement of New York City during

0:26:25.359 --> 0:26:27.880
<v Speaker 2>the fifties and sixties, but I'm going to like revisit

0:26:27.920 --> 0:26:29.320
<v Speaker 2>some of it because it's of my favorite shit I've

0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:31.760
<v Speaker 2>talked about on the show. I did an episode about

0:26:32.000 --> 0:26:34.920
<v Speaker 2>an anarchist street gang called Up Against the Wall motherfuckers.

0:26:35.240 --> 0:26:37.760
<v Speaker 2>That was in the late sixties, and they were like

0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:40.159
<v Speaker 2>friends with all the Black Panthers and all the like

0:26:40.200 --> 0:26:43.720
<v Speaker 2>new left movements or whatever. Yeah, and they came out

0:26:43.840 --> 0:26:46.840
<v Speaker 2>of an art group, a like anarchist surrealist art group

0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:51.080
<v Speaker 2>called Black Mask. Okay, all right, I want to revisit

0:26:51.160 --> 0:26:54.200
<v Speaker 2>some of that episode to set this scene, because to

0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:56.439
<v Speaker 2>show that they're part of this vibrant art scene, so

0:26:56.480 --> 0:26:58.359
<v Speaker 2>it's not just like, oh, they invented theater on the

0:26:58.440 --> 0:27:01.960
<v Speaker 2>Lower East Side, which they don't claim, you know, right, Okay,

0:27:02.040 --> 0:27:03.879
<v Speaker 2>And I also like drawing these really weird big pictures

0:27:03.880 --> 0:27:06.639
<v Speaker 2>about how everything works politically and getting all my string together.

0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:10.920
<v Speaker 2>By the nineteen forties, leftist politics were dramatically waning across

0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:13.840
<v Speaker 2>the West for a few reasons. Prior to the Russian

0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:18.119
<v Speaker 2>Revolution in nineteen seventeen, you have the anti authoritarian and

0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:21.400
<v Speaker 2>democratic tendencies were more dominant parts of the left. Democratic

0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:24.240
<v Speaker 2>socialists and anarchists were a bigger part of it. But

0:27:24.280 --> 0:27:26.960
<v Speaker 2>after the authoritarian communist Bolsheviks won the Russian Civil War

0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:29.760
<v Speaker 2>by exterminating their leftist rivals. Yes, Margaret has opinions about this,

0:27:30.520 --> 0:27:33.480
<v Speaker 2>theirs became the ascendant star and Bolshevism was kind of

0:27:33.480 --> 0:27:35.760
<v Speaker 2>the thing. So you're in the nineteen twenties, you get

0:27:35.800 --> 0:27:38.120
<v Speaker 2>this big burst of energy of people being like, fuck, yoah,

0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:40.679
<v Speaker 2>we're going to pull this off, like what happened in Russia,

0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:42.640
<v Speaker 2>we can do it here. And then you find people

0:27:42.680 --> 0:27:44.680
<v Speaker 2>would go to Russia and be like, oh god.

0:27:44.640 --> 0:27:46.480
<v Speaker 3>Uh, never mind, never mind, never mind.

0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:51.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, turn around, yeah, Jase, your mind. As Stalin became

0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:54.560
<v Speaker 2>more obviously Stalin, the left started to fracture, as people

0:27:54.560 --> 0:27:57.840
<v Speaker 2>of conscience died at his hands or left communist parties.

0:27:58.200 --> 0:28:00.560
<v Speaker 2>At the same time, you start getting the first scares

0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:04.160
<v Speaker 2>in the US and a real strong propaganda campaign against communism,

0:28:04.760 --> 0:28:06.880
<v Speaker 2>and then at the end of the thirties you get

0:28:06.880 --> 0:28:08.960
<v Speaker 2>the sort of big last hurrah for social revolution in

0:28:09.000 --> 0:28:11.359
<v Speaker 2>the West with the Spanish Civil War nineteen thirty six

0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:14.040
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty nine. We've talked about extensively. I think I

0:28:14.200 --> 0:28:16.440
<v Speaker 2>made you guess on that episode. Actually, I want to

0:28:16.440 --> 0:28:18.720
<v Speaker 2>tell a story about this because I think it's funny. Okay,

0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:21.640
<v Speaker 2>I was writing a podcast script at a coffee shop

0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:24.200
<v Speaker 2>that my friend was working at, and they got off

0:28:24.200 --> 0:28:26.440
<v Speaker 2>work and we're talking about some shit. We're talking about

0:28:26.480 --> 0:28:27.840
<v Speaker 2>this and that and I knew a lot of stuff

0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:29.560
<v Speaker 2>about a lot of the stuff I've been writing about,

0:28:29.600 --> 0:28:31.800
<v Speaker 2>and you know, gave me at some point I was like, oh,

0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:33.720
<v Speaker 2>like the Spanish Revolution. I swear to God, they look

0:28:33.720 --> 0:28:35.840
<v Speaker 2>at me in the cafe and go, I don't really

0:28:35.840 --> 0:28:37.639
<v Speaker 2>know much about that. Can you explain it to Magpie?

0:28:37.840 --> 0:28:38.720
<v Speaker 3>That was your time?

0:28:40.400 --> 0:28:44.120
<v Speaker 2>I know, I felt like it was a track naturally, wasp,

0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:46.800
<v Speaker 2>where's the cameras, Magpie?

0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:51.040
<v Speaker 1>I like to imagine a podcast microphone just magically appeared

0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:53.880
<v Speaker 1>from the grounding.

0:28:54.120 --> 0:28:56.720
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the flames of hell light up behind me.

0:28:56.840 --> 0:29:02.520
<v Speaker 3>Well, I know a thing or two of that. Yeah. Wow.

0:29:02.600 --> 0:29:05.560
<v Speaker 3>So how long were you at the coffee shop for?

0:29:05.160 --> 0:29:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Days later? Yeah, longer than it took for the

0:29:10.080 --> 0:29:14.120
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty six nineteen thirty nine thing to happen. It's

0:29:14.120 --> 0:29:15.760
<v Speaker 2>actually happened before I started this show.

0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:18.760
<v Speaker 3>Good God, what a war drop that you're like, Well,

0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:21.240
<v Speaker 3>actually this podcast came out of a day I held

0:29:21.280 --> 0:29:23.800
<v Speaker 3>some what hostage for a sudden.

0:29:24.440 --> 0:29:27.240
<v Speaker 1>The theme song of this show takes over the coffee

0:29:27.240 --> 0:29:29.000
<v Speaker 1>shop speaker system.

0:29:31.440 --> 0:29:32.880
<v Speaker 3>An echo from the back.

0:29:33.400 --> 0:29:35.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:29:35.160 --> 0:29:39.000
<v Speaker 3>Oh that's God. Give Bloomhouse a couple of years. There

0:29:39.040 --> 0:29:41.240
<v Speaker 3>will be a movie about a haunted podcast.

0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:45.320
<v Speaker 2>I have seen a horror movie about a podcaster who

0:29:45.400 --> 0:29:49.200
<v Speaker 2>goes to go report on a Oh I can't remember

0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:52.240
<v Speaker 2>it was actually it was alright. It was a podcaster

0:29:52.400 --> 0:29:54.080
<v Speaker 2>goes to the middle of nowhere to go report and

0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:58.600
<v Speaker 2>then it turns out that everything is whatever scary rural people.

0:29:58.840 --> 0:30:01.880
<v Speaker 1>I get really offended when they put the job of

0:30:02.040 --> 0:30:07.640
<v Speaker 1>podcast into film or television, because I'm like, that's wrong.

0:30:08.080 --> 0:30:13.080
<v Speaker 1>If you're not like unshowered and like on the floor

0:30:13.360 --> 0:30:16.200
<v Speaker 1>trying to record a podcast, like that's inaccurate. They have

0:30:16.280 --> 0:30:16.880
<v Speaker 1>them in these.

0:30:16.760 --> 0:30:20.360
<v Speaker 3>Like bougie studios like full hair.

0:30:21.040 --> 0:30:25.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, no, no, there needs to be pets or

0:30:25.880 --> 0:30:27.400
<v Speaker 2>it's not a podcast studio.

0:30:27.360 --> 0:30:29.400
<v Speaker 1>Potentially smelly, like you don't know.

0:30:30.320 --> 0:30:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I shower, I swear, I shower, I swear.

0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:36.000
<v Speaker 3>Listeners. I would love to see a super cut of

0:30:36.120 --> 0:30:40.520
<v Speaker 3>like ways they've been report Like, yeah, because I don't

0:30:40.520 --> 0:30:43.960
<v Speaker 3>think the media has been very kind, not that we deserve.

0:30:43.640 --> 0:30:45.760
<v Speaker 2>It, but we're not kind to ourselves either.

0:30:46.360 --> 0:30:49.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's like we hate ourselves already. That's so kind

0:30:49.680 --> 0:30:50.720
<v Speaker 3>of part of the job.

0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:52.960
<v Speaker 2>I think, at least being a feminist podcaster is like

0:30:53.040 --> 0:30:54.840
<v Speaker 2>being aware that you're in a field that is like

0:30:55.480 --> 0:30:58.760
<v Speaker 2>not full of good in the world, hate us more

0:30:58.840 --> 0:30:59.640
<v Speaker 2>we dare you.

0:31:00.320 --> 0:31:02.440
<v Speaker 1>A friend of ours made me watch the pilot of

0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:05.480
<v Speaker 1>And just like that where Carrie Bradshaw is being a

0:31:05.520 --> 0:31:09.320
<v Speaker 1>podcast and it's the worst thing I've ever seen, and

0:31:09.360 --> 0:31:10.360
<v Speaker 1>it made me really sad.

0:31:10.440 --> 0:31:12.960
<v Speaker 3>I think it's kind of charming because it reminds me

0:31:13.120 --> 0:31:16.080
<v Speaker 3>of like a kid show about a kid who does

0:31:16.120 --> 0:31:19.760
<v Speaker 3>the morning announcement. It's treated like that. True, Well, I

0:31:19.800 --> 0:31:22.200
<v Speaker 3>hope you have an awesome day and I'll talk to

0:31:22.240 --> 0:31:25.160
<v Speaker 3>you next time. Okay, I'm done. Like it's like, I

0:31:25.200 --> 0:31:26.280
<v Speaker 3>think it's kind of cute.

0:31:26.840 --> 0:31:32.360
<v Speaker 1>Fair, Okay, sorry, back to the script, back to the sorry, right.

0:31:33.160 --> 0:31:37.479
<v Speaker 2>Get three podcasters in the Oh god, it's true. So

0:31:38.320 --> 0:31:42.240
<v Speaker 2>all right, Spanish Civil War happens. I've covered it extensively,

0:31:42.320 --> 0:31:46.880
<v Speaker 2>but basically fascist forces took over Spain and the left

0:31:46.960 --> 0:31:49.600
<v Speaker 2>kept their shit together long enough to join the partisan

0:31:49.600 --> 0:31:52.480
<v Speaker 2>fight against Nazis in Europe. But honestly, at least the

0:31:52.520 --> 0:31:55.320
<v Speaker 2>anti authoritarian left kind of fell apart after that, and

0:31:55.360 --> 0:31:57.320
<v Speaker 2>you have this very fractured thing. And between the Red

0:31:57.320 --> 0:31:59.120
<v Speaker 2>Scare and all this stuff happening, and the fact that

0:31:59.320 --> 0:32:02.000
<v Speaker 2>all these commanists and leftists of various stripes that just

0:32:02.160 --> 0:32:07.200
<v Speaker 2>died right in large numbers, but actual people involved in

0:32:07.240 --> 0:32:09.400
<v Speaker 2>all of those struggles survived. And I love that I

0:32:09.400 --> 0:32:12.680
<v Speaker 2>can draw this through line where like a ton of people,

0:32:12.760 --> 0:32:14.600
<v Speaker 2>for example, who fought in the Spanish Civil War made

0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:17.280
<v Speaker 2>their way to New York City, and the folks who

0:32:17.360 --> 0:32:20.760
<v Speaker 2>kept the flame alive for several decades were some of

0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:23.800
<v Speaker 2>the people who were politically engaged but mostly on a

0:32:23.880 --> 0:32:27.360
<v Speaker 2>cultural front. Okay, you could draw this narrative differently, but

0:32:27.480 --> 0:32:29.040
<v Speaker 2>you can kind of refer to this sort of dead

0:32:29.120 --> 0:32:31.960
<v Speaker 2>period of the left between the forties and the sixties.

0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:34.560
<v Speaker 2>And obviously there's a ton of people doing a ton

0:32:34.600 --> 0:32:37.120
<v Speaker 2>of work, especially the civil rights type stuff, but like

0:32:37.880 --> 0:32:39.960
<v Speaker 2>there is a lull that you can map in terms

0:32:39.960 --> 0:32:42.520
<v Speaker 2>of militant leftism or whatever. And the people who kept

0:32:42.520 --> 0:32:48.640
<v Speaker 2>the flame alive, among others, were artists, and they were pacifists,

0:32:48.760 --> 0:32:52.160
<v Speaker 2>and they were like religious anarchists, especially Jewish anarchists, and

0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:55.880
<v Speaker 2>they were like authors and musicians and play rights and

0:32:55.920 --> 0:32:59.840
<v Speaker 2>they just kind of partly because they like weren't threatened,

0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:02.680
<v Speaker 2>right because like kind of have some free speech sort of.

0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:04.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's the rest here, it's the only kind

0:33:04.240 --> 0:33:04.480
<v Speaker 2>of do.

0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:08.760
<v Speaker 3>It's funny to think of like periods of time where

0:33:09.360 --> 0:33:15.120
<v Speaker 3>making leftist art is not dangerous, but like, also it's

0:33:15.160 --> 0:33:17.200
<v Speaker 3>not cool. I don't know.

0:33:17.520 --> 0:33:19.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh, I was gonna get dangerous again.

0:33:19.960 --> 0:33:21.120
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, it's true.

0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:26.200
<v Speaker 2>And the oldest experimental theater group in the US is

0:33:26.240 --> 0:33:29.120
<v Speaker 2>called the Living Theater in New York City. Yes, and

0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:32.400
<v Speaker 2>it was founded in nineteen forty seven by two anarchist pacifists,

0:33:32.800 --> 0:33:38.040
<v Speaker 2>Judith Mulane and Julian Beck. And I find them really fascinating.

0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:40.120
<v Speaker 2>And so I'm going to I've never done this before.

0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:42.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to quote my own previous episode.

0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:44.400
<v Speaker 3>Here oooh okay, because it was the.

0:33:44.440 --> 0:33:46.600
<v Speaker 2>Coolest side years ago, and I think it's the coolest

0:33:46.640 --> 0:33:49.240
<v Speaker 2>side now, partly because it ties into the Adams family.

0:33:50.000 --> 0:33:50.880
<v Speaker 3>Oh okay, I'm in.

0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:54.719
<v Speaker 2>Judith Mulane was a German Jewish immigrant. Her parents came

0:33:54.760 --> 0:33:57.480
<v Speaker 2>over in nineteen twenty nine when she was three. They

0:33:57.520 --> 0:33:59.600
<v Speaker 2>were some of the first people to be like, this

0:33:59.680 --> 0:34:02.120
<v Speaker 2>might go bad. We should get the fuck out of here.

0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Julian Beck was her husband and they were in an

0:34:06.000 --> 0:34:10.239
<v Speaker 2>open marriage in the early fifties. He is bisexual or

0:34:10.360 --> 0:34:12.680
<v Speaker 2>queer or whatever. I'm not sure what he called himself.

0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:15.680
<v Speaker 2>He had his own boyfriend outside the marriage, but the

0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:17.839
<v Speaker 2>couple were also sort of in a triad with yet

0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:19.959
<v Speaker 2>another guy who was a doc worker who was also

0:34:20.000 --> 0:34:25.080
<v Speaker 2>married to someone else. Okay, hot, yeah, long history of polyamorous,

0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:26.400
<v Speaker 2>queer anarchist theater people.

0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:29.759
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, none of this is shocking to me. And they

0:34:29.800 --> 0:34:30.640
<v Speaker 3>got into theater.

0:34:31.320 --> 0:34:34.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah wait, they started the oldest experimental theater in the

0:34:34.120 --> 0:34:38.200
<v Speaker 2>United States. And in nineteen eighty six. He also played

0:34:38.200 --> 0:34:42.680
<v Speaker 2>the villainous preacher in Poltergeist two stop. Oh he died

0:34:42.680 --> 0:34:45.160
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen eighty five, but it came out after if

0:34:45.200 --> 0:34:48.320
<v Speaker 2>Terry died excellent, or he's the Poltergeist in it? Literally

0:34:48.400 --> 0:34:48.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

0:34:49.600 --> 0:34:51.480
<v Speaker 3>I mean there the productions are haunted.

0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:55.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was before podcast, so we might be in heaven. Okay.

0:34:56.000 --> 0:34:58.120
<v Speaker 2>And then he wrote a ton of books, mostly poetry

0:34:58.120 --> 0:35:01.319
<v Speaker 2>and some about theater and judas. I've played Granny in

0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:02.640
<v Speaker 2>the Adams Family movies.

0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:06.880
<v Speaker 3>No wait, like the original series.

0:35:06.640 --> 0:35:09.680
<v Speaker 2>No, in the nineties movies, Oh.

0:35:09.520 --> 0:35:11.600
<v Speaker 3>My god, the Angelica Houston ones.

0:35:11.760 --> 0:35:16.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember the names of actors, Okay.

0:35:17.440 --> 0:35:20.440
<v Speaker 3>Having conversations with you, and because you can tell me

0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:22.600
<v Speaker 3>five thousand things I don't know and then I can

0:35:22.640 --> 0:35:24.239
<v Speaker 3>teach you a simple fact.

0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:27.720
<v Speaker 2>This is yes, I know the politics of the Granny

0:35:27.760 --> 0:35:32.120
<v Speaker 2>of adams family, but I don't know the main characters.

0:35:31.239 --> 0:35:35.440
<v Speaker 3>Sports tsha, oh my god, jud yes, Judith Molina.

0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Wow, yeah, I yep. She's been on the Sopranos a

0:35:41.040 --> 0:35:41.600
<v Speaker 2>bunch of shit.

0:35:42.560 --> 0:35:45.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, she was working. She didn't come back for Adam's

0:35:45.440 --> 0:35:47.920
<v Speaker 3>family values. She was replaced by Carol Kane.

0:35:48.239 --> 0:35:50.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, okay, so only in the first.

0:35:50.120 --> 0:35:52.360
<v Speaker 3>I mean, if you've got to be replaced by someone

0:35:52.400 --> 0:35:53.959
<v Speaker 3>Carol Kane, not bad.

0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:55.880
<v Speaker 2>And I kind of can't get over the fact that

0:35:55.920 --> 0:36:00.279
<v Speaker 2>the original crone witch of my childhood granny from Adam's

0:36:00.320 --> 0:36:03.719
<v Speaker 2>family was played by a polyamorous, anarchist Jew who'd fled

0:36:03.719 --> 0:36:04.920
<v Speaker 2>the Nazis at three years old.

0:36:05.280 --> 0:36:08.000
<v Speaker 3>What more could you want? That's terrific.

0:36:08.120 --> 0:36:08.319
<v Speaker 1>I know.

0:36:08.640 --> 0:36:10.759
<v Speaker 2>At one point the couple got arrested for not paying

0:36:10.800 --> 0:36:13.440
<v Speaker 2>their taxes, and their argument was basically like, what we did

0:36:13.440 --> 0:36:15.040
<v Speaker 2>a lot to pay taxes. Government's bad.

0:36:16.520 --> 0:36:18.800
<v Speaker 3>Oh sorry for bothering you, got it totally.

0:36:19.560 --> 0:36:23.200
<v Speaker 2>They represented themselves in court, and when they represented themselves

0:36:23.239 --> 0:36:25.800
<v Speaker 2>in court, Jude is dressed up in a Shakespeare costume.

0:36:26.600 --> 0:36:28.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how that went. But another time they

0:36:28.239 --> 0:36:30.480
<v Speaker 2>got arrested for having indecent exposure because they would have

0:36:30.520 --> 0:36:31.680
<v Speaker 2>plays that involved nudity.

0:36:32.760 --> 0:36:35.280
<v Speaker 3>Oh come on, okay, Yeah.

0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:39.040
<v Speaker 2>The Living Theater that they formed is still around and

0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:43.239
<v Speaker 2>it performs in streets and in prisons, and they try

0:36:43.239 --> 0:36:45.360
<v Speaker 2>to undermine authority in both content and form, and I

0:36:45.400 --> 0:36:47.719
<v Speaker 2>think they're swell. And I also think that some of

0:36:47.719 --> 0:36:49.800
<v Speaker 2>the first organizing meetings I ever went to for the

0:36:49.880 --> 0:36:52.360
<v Speaker 2>ultra globalization movement were at the Living Theater before I

0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:56.560
<v Speaker 2>knew what that was. Really, I'm not certain that's a

0:36:57.080 --> 0:37:00.160
<v Speaker 2>guess because I remember the theater, but I don't. There's

0:37:00.160 --> 0:37:03.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot of theaters in New York. Sure, Okay, that

0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:06.520
<v Speaker 2>is the end of that self plagiarism. And I brought

0:37:06.520 --> 0:37:08.400
<v Speaker 2>them up in a previous episode because.

0:37:08.200 --> 0:37:17.239
<v Speaker 3>They sorry, oh that was cool, I'm going to use that.

0:37:17.960 --> 0:37:22.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but you know who would never do plagiarism. These advertisers,

0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:24.600
<v Speaker 2>That's right, none of them would ever.

0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:28.240
<v Speaker 3>They are not using AI to write the copy.

0:37:28.400 --> 0:37:28.760
<v Speaker 2>Guys.

0:37:28.840 --> 0:37:34.320
<v Speaker 3>Come on, no, no, God, you'd be the judge.

0:37:38.000 --> 0:37:42.640
<v Speaker 2>And we're back. Okay. So I brought them up in

0:37:42.640 --> 0:37:45.640
<v Speaker 2>the previous episode, the Living Theater, because they helped radicalize

0:37:45.640 --> 0:37:47.040
<v Speaker 2>bem Maria, who went on to become one of the

0:37:47.040 --> 0:37:49.600
<v Speaker 2>founders of one of the more radical and interesting groups

0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:52.040
<v Speaker 2>of the late sixties, the anarchist street gang, mostly white

0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:54.040
<v Speaker 2>and Puerto Rican called Up against the Wall Motherfuckers and

0:37:54.080 --> 0:37:56.759
<v Speaker 2>if you want to hear about it, I'm just advertising

0:37:56.960 --> 0:38:00.120
<v Speaker 2>my own show. You can go back and listen. And

0:38:00.160 --> 0:38:01.600
<v Speaker 2>that was part of the culture of New York City

0:38:01.600 --> 0:38:04.400
<v Speaker 2>at the time. This theater that was radical. Although they

0:38:04.400 --> 0:38:06.880
<v Speaker 2>were pacifist. That actually doesn't make them less radical at all,

0:38:06.920 --> 0:38:09.200
<v Speaker 2>but it means that they might not have joined an

0:38:09.200 --> 0:38:13.840
<v Speaker 2>Anarchistrea King. But our protagonist of this week, Elka and Peter,

0:38:15.120 --> 0:38:18.680
<v Speaker 2>they're part of a pretty vibrant art scene and they're

0:38:18.760 --> 0:38:21.839
<v Speaker 2>part of yet another proto hippie movement that we've talked

0:38:21.840 --> 0:38:26.440
<v Speaker 2>about on the show before, a neo dataist movement called Fluxus.

0:38:26.840 --> 0:38:31.160
<v Speaker 2>You randomly heard of this, no, so when I did

0:38:31.239 --> 0:38:33.239
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of episodes about the band Crass, the like

0:38:33.280 --> 0:38:36.600
<v Speaker 2>an arcopunk band from the seventies in the UK. They

0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:40.359
<v Speaker 2>were also old hippies who were part of this neo

0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:44.680
<v Speaker 2>dadaist movement called Fluxus that basically just like did Avant

0:38:44.719 --> 0:38:50.040
<v Speaker 2>garde shit like pre hippie avant garde. That's how weird

0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:54.880
<v Speaker 2>can we make our art? And so they're influenced by data,

0:38:54.880 --> 0:38:57.160
<v Speaker 2>which we've talked about on the show. Radical anti art

0:38:57.160 --> 0:39:01.120
<v Speaker 2>movement from the early twentieth century, and Flexus was also

0:39:01.120 --> 0:39:04.759
<v Speaker 2>particularly inspired by this gay anarchist composer named John Cage.

0:39:04.760 --> 0:39:06.480
<v Speaker 2>I know, I just keep being like everyone's an anarchists,

0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:08.520
<v Speaker 2>This isn't true. Many of our Cage is amazing. Yeah,

0:39:08.600 --> 0:39:11.920
<v Speaker 2>John Cage is fucking cool, and he is most famous

0:39:11.920 --> 0:39:16.280
<v Speaker 2>for his composition for thirty three sits, where you, dear listener,

0:39:16.280 --> 0:39:18.000
<v Speaker 2>could play this you just sit in front of a

0:39:18.040 --> 0:39:21.960
<v Speaker 2>piano for four minutes and thirty three seconds and loot required.

0:39:22.360 --> 0:39:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah that's right. Yeah, although you did need a piano. Yeah,

0:39:26.800 --> 0:39:29.760
<v Speaker 2>he'd be kind of like faking it to just imagine

0:39:29.800 --> 0:39:30.200
<v Speaker 2>a piano.

0:39:30.520 --> 0:39:33.120
<v Speaker 3>Whenever I think about John Cage, You're like, oh, wouldn't

0:39:33.120 --> 0:39:36.319
<v Speaker 3>be so cool to be like nineteen again and just

0:39:36.480 --> 0:39:39.520
<v Speaker 3>learn about the existence of four thirty three And I'd

0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:43.520
<v Speaker 3>be like, oh my god, Like it's ah, put that

0:39:43.560 --> 0:39:44.400
<v Speaker 3>feeling in a bottle.

0:39:44.560 --> 0:39:47.840
<v Speaker 2>It's also so beautiful at how it like triggers conservative

0:39:47.920 --> 0:39:52.080
<v Speaker 2>art people. Yeah, but also it's like made by one

0:39:52.080 --> 0:39:54.280
<v Speaker 2>of the better composers of the twentieth century.

0:39:55.600 --> 0:39:58.320
<v Speaker 3>No, he could also play yeah quite well.

0:39:59.480 --> 0:40:00.879
<v Speaker 2>And near the end of his life he would talk

0:40:00.880 --> 0:40:03.520
<v Speaker 2>about how he practiced four thirty three every day, what

0:40:03.640 --> 0:40:05.520
<v Speaker 2>a good meditation practice.

0:40:06.200 --> 0:40:09.040
<v Speaker 3>That's I love that. He uh god, I'm like, what

0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:11.480
<v Speaker 3>is our version of that? He somehow managed to take

0:40:11.520 --> 0:40:15.280
<v Speaker 3>a meditation and made it part of the work too, Yeah, totally.

0:40:15.320 --> 0:40:19.080
<v Speaker 3>It's like, no, he was still working yeah, yeah, ah,

0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:19.760
<v Speaker 3>that's incredible.

0:40:19.880 --> 0:40:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, recording yoga for content that would be yep, yep.

0:40:24.960 --> 0:40:28.319
<v Speaker 2>So Fluxus is basically this art movement that's like how

0:40:28.320 --> 0:40:30.440
<v Speaker 2>weird can we get? And it ties into way more

0:40:30.440 --> 0:40:32.480
<v Speaker 2>shit than I would have expected, like the fact that

0:40:32.960 --> 0:40:36.960
<v Speaker 2>you can talk about an arcopunk, which heavily influenced European

0:40:37.000 --> 0:40:39.200
<v Speaker 2>protest culture as well as like a ton of music.

0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:42.760
<v Speaker 2>And it's through Fluxus that you get bread and puppet

0:40:42.760 --> 0:40:45.719
<v Speaker 2>and therefore giant puppets, street theater at protests and these

0:40:45.719 --> 0:40:48.399
<v Speaker 2>are like really opposite lineages, but they're not. They come

0:40:48.440 --> 0:40:50.560
<v Speaker 2>back together and like literally are at the same protests

0:40:50.560 --> 0:40:53.600
<v Speaker 2>with each other, you know, decades later. That's amazing And

0:40:54.239 --> 0:40:56.839
<v Speaker 2>I just I fucking love this shit. And so if

0:40:56.840 --> 0:40:58.799
<v Speaker 2>you ever have like a street theater person and like

0:40:58.800 --> 0:41:01.400
<v Speaker 2>a black block person are giving about tactics on the street,

0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:03.960
<v Speaker 2>you can be like, y'all all the same grandparents, Like

0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:06.640
<v Speaker 2>ideologically you all come from John Cage.

0:41:06.360 --> 0:41:09.279
<v Speaker 3>You four thirty three motherfuckers have to figure this out,

0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:10.120
<v Speaker 3>get along.

0:41:10.640 --> 0:41:13.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally, that's beautiful.

0:41:13.400 --> 0:41:16.040
<v Speaker 3>That's like what makes me I mean, it does happen here,

0:41:16.080 --> 0:41:18.680
<v Speaker 3>but it makes me wish that I had lived in

0:41:18.680 --> 0:41:21.400
<v Speaker 3>New York at any point where it just seems like

0:41:21.440 --> 0:41:23.920
<v Speaker 3>New York and Chicago is just like incredible places to

0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:29.760
<v Speaker 3>literally walk into someone that shares your ideology but interprets

0:41:29.800 --> 0:41:30.680
<v Speaker 3>it completely differently.

0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:36.160
<v Speaker 2>It just ooh yeah, yeah, totally, there's an advantage to cities.

0:41:36.200 --> 0:41:38.799
<v Speaker 2>I have to accept this as I like living in

0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:41.640
<v Speaker 2>the woods, but I'm also like, there's a reason that

0:41:41.960 --> 0:41:44.560
<v Speaker 2>being around people can make amazing things.

0:41:44.960 --> 0:41:47.799
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's still overrated at the end of the day.

0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:52.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but yeah, so Bred and Puppett they move into

0:41:53.200 --> 0:41:56.120
<v Speaker 2>this kind of New York City, this Lower East Side,

0:41:57.000 --> 0:41:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Elka and Peter heavily influenced by John Cage and Fluxus

0:41:59.840 --> 0:42:02.120
<v Speaker 2>aside a lot of other influences. I just am not

0:42:02.200 --> 0:42:04.640
<v Speaker 2>going to track down all of them. But they're not

0:42:05.000 --> 0:42:07.080
<v Speaker 2>just into doing avant garde shit. They want to do

0:42:07.200 --> 0:42:11.480
<v Speaker 2>more medieval and traditional forms of storytelling as well, and

0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:13.520
<v Speaker 2>so there's like kind of a sort of almost like

0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:16.040
<v Speaker 2>ritual element to a lot of what they do, and

0:42:17.000 --> 0:42:20.359
<v Speaker 2>they're not just an avant garde. And so when they

0:42:20.400 --> 0:42:22.319
<v Speaker 2>move there, they fall in with a group that their

0:42:22.360 --> 0:42:25.360
<v Speaker 2>own web sites right up calls a commune slash cult,

0:42:26.400 --> 0:42:30.760
<v Speaker 2>the Uranian philant Uranian Philanstery.

0:42:32.000 --> 0:42:34.640
<v Speaker 3>Okay, which and what do they mean by that?

0:42:35.080 --> 0:42:36.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't really know, because I don't know what

0:42:36.680 --> 0:42:40.400
<v Speaker 2>a philanstery is. Great, but Wikipedia says it's an artist

0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:43.160
<v Speaker 2>collective and not a commune slash cult, and they still

0:42:43.200 --> 0:42:46.480
<v Speaker 2>have a website, they're still around. But I didn't dive

0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:48.400
<v Speaker 2>in any further to that because I was like asking

0:42:48.400 --> 0:42:51.000
<v Speaker 2>to be a rabbit hole, and a rabbit hole that.

0:42:51.160 --> 0:42:53.680
<v Speaker 3>Sounds like a terrific rabbit hole, and it also sounds

0:42:53.719 --> 0:42:56.800
<v Speaker 3>like the kind of thing where like it being confusing

0:42:56.840 --> 0:42:57.400
<v Speaker 3>as a part.

0:42:57.280 --> 0:43:00.160
<v Speaker 2>Of it, I suspect as much. Yeah, yes, it is

0:43:00.160 --> 0:43:02.840
<v Speaker 2>starting to make puppets, and he likes making large puppets.

0:43:02.920 --> 0:43:06.279
<v Speaker 2>He told some interviewers that the large puppet thing came

0:43:06.320 --> 0:43:09.640
<v Speaker 2>from he saw Sicilian theater performed by working class Italian

0:43:09.680 --> 0:43:13.600
<v Speaker 2>mechanics in New York and little Italy okay, which is

0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:16.040
<v Speaker 2>another just like cool New York City thing, being like, oh,

0:43:16.080 --> 0:43:18.960
<v Speaker 2>these like mechanics came from Italy and they were like, Oh,

0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:21.200
<v Speaker 2>we're going to do the Sicilian theater where we make

0:43:21.719 --> 0:43:24.959
<v Speaker 2>ninety pound wood and steel puppets that are like five

0:43:25.000 --> 0:43:28.400
<v Speaker 2>feet tall or so, and like they like shake the

0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:31.759
<v Speaker 2>feater as they're like moving around. Ah.

0:43:31.800 --> 0:43:33.080
<v Speaker 3>Okay, I love it.

0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:36.040
<v Speaker 2>And Peter doesn't understand a word of it because like

0:43:36.160 --> 0:43:37.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if he speaks to any Italian, but

0:43:37.600 --> 0:43:39.600
<v Speaker 2>I think he specifically said he couldn't understand like the

0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:45.359
<v Speaker 2>Sicilian dialect. Okay, And Peter starts putting on performances, and

0:43:45.400 --> 0:43:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I think he's already developed his signature move at this point.

0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:50.799
<v Speaker 2>He bakes bread and he brings it to the performance

0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:54.200
<v Speaker 2>and he passes it out to everyone to eat sourdough

0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:54.800
<v Speaker 2>rye bread.

0:43:55.320 --> 0:43:58.160
<v Speaker 3>That's way better than my signature move, which was once

0:43:58.840 --> 0:44:02.200
<v Speaker 3>passing my pubes around the audience in a bag and

0:44:02.520 --> 0:44:10.560
<v Speaker 3>butt chugging milk, just aspiring performers. You can't overshoot a

0:44:10.680 --> 0:44:16.680
<v Speaker 3>hospitable calling card. Yeah, that's my best friend, some harder

0:44:16.760 --> 0:44:19.520
<v Speaker 3>cell when you're like, does anyone seem the funnel I

0:44:19.560 --> 0:44:22.719
<v Speaker 3>put in my asshole because I go, I would die

0:44:22.760 --> 0:44:24.319
<v Speaker 3>for you. I love you.

0:44:24.800 --> 0:44:27.680
<v Speaker 2>So you can just do the midsummer thing and bake

0:44:27.760 --> 0:44:29.239
<v Speaker 2>food with your pupes in it.

0:44:29.760 --> 0:44:31.200
<v Speaker 3>And then there's like, what was it? It was like

0:44:31.640 --> 0:44:34.600
<v Speaker 3>menstrual blood cocktail or whatever to be like, you are

0:44:34.719 --> 0:44:35.680
<v Speaker 3>my chosen one.

0:44:35.800 --> 0:44:38.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, Like I think that's a fine and totally

0:44:38.840 --> 0:44:41.480
<v Speaker 2>ethical thing to do. I don't actually think that. I

0:44:41.719 --> 0:44:43.440
<v Speaker 2>get more and more nervous about people taking the things

0:44:43.480 --> 0:44:47.200
<v Speaker 2>I say literally. No, I've learned I have a very

0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:49.080
<v Speaker 2>dry sense of humor and my mind that was very

0:44:49.080 --> 0:44:53.120
<v Speaker 2>off anyway. Whatever, So we talked about hippies and bread

0:44:53.160 --> 0:44:56.160
<v Speaker 2>a bunch on our episodes, and we did some episodes

0:44:56.160 --> 0:44:59.400
<v Speaker 2>about the modern diggers, and I keep calling them hippies

0:44:59.440 --> 0:45:01.200
<v Speaker 2>when I'm talking about them, because that is the word

0:45:01.200 --> 0:45:03.280
<v Speaker 2>that communicates the thing that I'm trying to get across.

0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:06.600
<v Speaker 2>But in this early scene in the sixties, the more

0:45:06.640 --> 0:45:08.640
<v Speaker 2>radical elements of it at least would not have called

0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:13.000
<v Speaker 2>themselves hippies. They would have called themselves freaks, and hippies

0:45:13.040 --> 0:45:15.440
<v Speaker 2>was coined in the nineteen forties to describe white people

0:45:15.480 --> 0:45:17.920
<v Speaker 2>trying to be blacker than black people as a pejorative,

0:45:18.600 --> 0:45:21.640
<v Speaker 2>and the concept of the hippie was more of a

0:45:21.719 --> 0:45:25.360
<v Speaker 2>media construction. I don't know what Elkam Peter called themselves.

0:45:25.400 --> 0:45:29.080
<v Speaker 2>I believe that that scene would have called themselves freaks. Okay,

0:45:28.800 --> 0:45:31.320
<v Speaker 2>I like that better, I know, because I feel like

0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:34.520
<v Speaker 2>that's like still kind of like if you just like

0:45:34.560 --> 0:45:37.680
<v Speaker 2>described like the outcast, like funny strange kids, it's like

0:45:37.719 --> 0:45:40.160
<v Speaker 2>freaks for every probably like yeah, fuck yeah, you know,

0:45:40.560 --> 0:45:41.160
<v Speaker 2>it's like one.

0:45:41.080 --> 0:45:42.880
<v Speaker 3>Of the most reclaimable terms there is.

0:45:43.000 --> 0:45:45.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, and it's a little bit more open ended.

0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Hippie is like pretty specific connotations, you know, Yeah, some

0:45:48.719 --> 0:45:53.600
<v Speaker 2>of which there are great hippies absolutely, but freaks you.

0:45:53.560 --> 0:45:56.200
<v Speaker 3>Could be doing quite literally anything, Yeah, and fit under

0:45:56.239 --> 0:45:57.480
<v Speaker 3>the umbrella, Yeah totally.

0:45:58.480 --> 0:46:01.080
<v Speaker 2>Peter's first US show is at Judson Church, which is

0:46:01.080 --> 0:46:04.040
<v Speaker 2>a longstanding social justice Baptist church where I've been to

0:46:04.080 --> 0:46:06.319
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of events. It's right next to Washington Square Park,

0:46:07.640 --> 0:46:10.239
<v Speaker 2>and so they're busy being freaks or bohemians or whatever.

0:46:10.280 --> 0:46:12.120
<v Speaker 2>On the Lower East Side, but Elko wants to go

0:46:12.160 --> 0:46:14.799
<v Speaker 2>back to school to work on her masters, and her

0:46:14.840 --> 0:46:17.280
<v Speaker 2>master's is in Russian, not just in the Russian language,

0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:21.960
<v Speaker 2>but like on Russian. Okay, And so the pair of them,

0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:25.120
<v Speaker 2>because he's willing to follow her for her career, pack

0:46:25.200 --> 0:46:28.120
<v Speaker 2>up and move to Vermont in nineteen sixty two. And

0:46:28.160 --> 0:46:30.320
<v Speaker 2>I think that their grandparents are doing the majority of

0:46:30.360 --> 0:46:31.640
<v Speaker 2>the childcare during this period.

0:46:32.800 --> 0:46:34.320
<v Speaker 3>Okay, gotcha.

0:46:34.440 --> 0:46:37.439
<v Speaker 2>Elka starts teaching Russian at the university she's studying at,

0:46:37.719 --> 0:46:40.680
<v Speaker 2>and basically like, okay, subtext here it was a little

0:46:40.680 --> 0:46:42.240
<v Speaker 2>bit like, hey, you can get a job too, buddy,

0:46:42.880 --> 0:46:45.560
<v Speaker 2>maybe with Peter's own or whatever. Anyway, he gets rejected

0:46:45.600 --> 0:46:48.160
<v Speaker 2>for a position teaching dance choreography. They're like, ah, we

0:46:48.200 --> 0:46:50.120
<v Speaker 2>don't actually need that, or we don't need you doing it.

0:46:50.360 --> 0:46:54.000
<v Speaker 2>He does some work as extracurricular at the university, teaching puppetry,

0:46:54.280 --> 0:46:56.920
<v Speaker 2>but he also just takes the time to start touring

0:46:56.960 --> 0:47:00.799
<v Speaker 2>around doing puppet shows around New England. He hooks up

0:47:00.800 --> 0:47:04.160
<v Speaker 2>a trailer as a makeshift stage to the back of

0:47:04.200 --> 0:47:06.200
<v Speaker 2>the car, which is either a jeep or station wagon.

0:47:06.239 --> 0:47:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I've read both, and just like bums around doing this

0:47:09.320 --> 0:47:11.280
<v Speaker 2>thing for a while in the sixties early sixties.

0:47:11.480 --> 0:47:16.200
<v Speaker 3>Look, I love this, But if the lone guy pulls

0:47:16.280 --> 0:47:19.440
<v Speaker 3>up it says, would you like to see my puppet show?

0:47:21.000 --> 0:47:25.440
<v Speaker 3>I would say I'm good. I just hope he's scheduling

0:47:25.520 --> 0:47:26.879
<v Speaker 3>the shows, I guess.

0:47:26.600 --> 0:47:31.840
<v Speaker 2>And not just expecting, like anyone any you could busk

0:47:31.920 --> 0:47:33.320
<v Speaker 2>with it, but it would have to be in a

0:47:33.360 --> 0:47:35.600
<v Speaker 2>place people were going to be anyway, you know.

0:47:35.960 --> 0:47:40.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, puppet busking is you know, it's a harder cell. Yeah,

0:47:40.520 --> 0:47:40.879
<v Speaker 3>it's hard.

0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:43.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, accordion, real good busking instrument.

0:47:44.040 --> 0:47:44.320
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

0:47:45.960 --> 0:47:48.319
<v Speaker 2>They moved back to New York City in nineteen sixty three,

0:47:48.719 --> 0:47:50.439
<v Speaker 2>and the two of them come up with a name

0:47:50.520 --> 0:47:53.160
<v Speaker 2>for what will become their life's work, the credit of which,

0:47:53.200 --> 0:47:55.360
<v Speaker 2>of course gets given a Peter. I'm not a bitter feminist,

0:47:55.440 --> 0:47:58.600
<v Speaker 2>kill joy. I don't know what you're talking about. And the

0:47:58.600 --> 0:48:00.880
<v Speaker 2>two of them come up with the name bread and Puppet,

0:48:01.400 --> 0:48:03.080
<v Speaker 2>and the idea is both we give you bread and

0:48:03.080 --> 0:48:06.400
<v Speaker 2>we have puppets here. But also I assume it's a

0:48:06.440 --> 0:48:08.840
<v Speaker 2>reference to the labor slogan of the early nineteen tens

0:48:08.880 --> 0:48:13.080
<v Speaker 2>and also suffragette slogan bread and roses. Oh okay, we

0:48:13.120 --> 0:48:15.759
<v Speaker 2>need bread, we need to eat, but we need roses too.

0:48:15.960 --> 0:48:18.600
<v Speaker 2>We need beauty as sustenance just as much as we

0:48:18.680 --> 0:48:20.960
<v Speaker 2>need food. And in this case, beauty is just you know,

0:48:21.120 --> 0:48:22.359
<v Speaker 2>represented by puppets.

0:48:22.520 --> 0:48:24.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:48:24.560 --> 0:48:27.640
<v Speaker 2>He told a newspaper called Seven Days about this quote.

0:48:28.360 --> 0:48:30.319
<v Speaker 2>We fed bread to the public so that they were

0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:32.759
<v Speaker 2>chewing while they were watching the show. We thought they

0:48:32.760 --> 0:48:36.240
<v Speaker 2>were a better audience. And I love that. Like, sometimes

0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:38.560
<v Speaker 2>the answer is this like very dramatic thing about like

0:48:38.600 --> 0:48:40.600
<v Speaker 2>politics and stuff, and somebody's like, no, they pay better

0:48:40.640 --> 0:48:41.799
<v Speaker 2>attention if you give them food.

0:48:42.600 --> 0:48:45.720
<v Speaker 3>They just like the show better if they're not hungry.

0:48:45.880 --> 0:48:48.400
<v Speaker 3>You really, Yeah, Yeah.

0:48:48.440 --> 0:48:50.440
<v Speaker 2>And he wrote a longer piece about this name in

0:48:50.520 --> 0:48:53.520
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy and I want to quote that for a

0:48:53.520 --> 0:48:56.480
<v Speaker 2>long time, the theater arts have been separated from the stomach.

0:48:57.040 --> 0:49:01.240
<v Speaker 2>Theater was entertainment. Entertainment was meant for the skin. Bread

0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:03.640
<v Speaker 2>was meant for the stomach. The old rights of baking

0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:07.280
<v Speaker 2>and eating and offering bread were forgotten. The bread decayed

0:49:07.320 --> 0:49:10.440
<v Speaker 2>and became mush. The breadshell remind you of the sacrament

0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:13.279
<v Speaker 2>of eating. We want you to understand that the theater

0:49:13.760 --> 0:49:17.320
<v Speaker 2>is not yet an established form, not the place of commerce,

0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:19.360
<v Speaker 2>that you think it is where you pay and you

0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:22.240
<v Speaker 2>get something. Theater is different. It is more like bread,

0:49:22.480 --> 0:49:23.520
<v Speaker 2>more like a necessity.

0:49:24.680 --> 0:49:25.560
<v Speaker 3>That's beautiful.

0:49:26.880 --> 0:49:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so I think this is where we're going

0:49:29.440 --> 0:49:31.680
<v Speaker 2>to leave it. You know, Part one is context. And

0:49:32.600 --> 0:49:35.640
<v Speaker 2>they have now created bread and puppet. Our heroes have

0:49:35.719 --> 0:49:37.480
<v Speaker 2>just named the thing they will spend the next fifty

0:49:37.560 --> 0:49:40.400
<v Speaker 2>years of their lives doing. And in one of my

0:49:40.760 --> 0:49:42.920
<v Speaker 2>favorite love stories I ever got to tell on this show.

0:49:44.040 --> 0:49:47.600
<v Speaker 3>I love that having performed for years and years, it's

0:49:47.640 --> 0:49:51.319
<v Speaker 3>really nice being like, you know, bread is a more

0:49:51.320 --> 0:49:55.600
<v Speaker 3>political act than you know, warm tacats is what I think.

0:49:55.800 --> 0:49:59.640
<v Speaker 3>That's mostly that's the version of bread that I'm familiar

0:49:59.719 --> 0:50:03.240
<v Speaker 3>with with regard to the art uh huh free food.

0:50:04.040 --> 0:50:08.800
<v Speaker 3>It is a warm takata. Does that count kind?

0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:11.440
<v Speaker 2>Does yeah? The various points in my life, the answer is.

0:50:11.440 --> 0:50:14.120
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, count yeah, CEUs enough.

0:50:14.200 --> 0:50:18.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. On Wednesday, we'll talk about them doing all the

0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:20.239
<v Speaker 2>radical stuff they're going to do, and they're also going

0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:22.360
<v Speaker 2>to create a festival that tens of thousands of people

0:50:22.360 --> 0:50:24.719
<v Speaker 2>come to and they're going to influence a ton of

0:50:24.719 --> 0:50:28.719
<v Speaker 2>folks and it's gonna, you know, do the whole beautiful

0:50:29.160 --> 0:50:31.520
<v Speaker 2>change in the world one bit at a time, brick

0:50:31.600 --> 0:50:34.600
<v Speaker 2>by brick thing that we can all aspire to do.

0:50:35.280 --> 0:50:35.919
<v Speaker 3>I love this.

0:50:36.520 --> 0:50:38.840
<v Speaker 2>It's not very dramatic cliffhanger. It's just a like, isn't

0:50:38.840 --> 0:50:40.279
<v Speaker 2>this like kind of wholesome? This is one of the

0:50:40.280 --> 0:50:42.279
<v Speaker 2>moost wholesome episodes I've ever gotten to do.

0:50:43.520 --> 0:50:47.640
<v Speaker 3>I feel great. Yeah, like, this is so lovely. I

0:50:47.680 --> 0:50:49.759
<v Speaker 3>love a lack of a cliffhanger, like and do you

0:50:49.760 --> 0:50:53.759
<v Speaker 3>want to hear about their positive legacy? Tune in Wednesday?

0:50:53.960 --> 0:50:59.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally anyway, Yeah, you got anything you want to plug?

0:50:59.280 --> 0:50:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Here at the end.

0:51:00.200 --> 0:51:03.960
<v Speaker 3>Sixteenth minute right here on Cooles and Media. Produced by

0:51:04.360 --> 0:51:08.000
<v Speaker 3>Sophie Lijaman, who I've heard of her.

0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:09.360
<v Speaker 2>I like everything she does.

0:51:09.480 --> 0:51:12.800
<v Speaker 3>She's just a legend. Yeah, she's a legend in the field.

0:51:13.040 --> 0:51:17.160
<v Speaker 3>She's a credit to humans writ large. She's my best friend.

0:51:17.560 --> 0:51:21.879
<v Speaker 3>I guess I will also plug my book raw Dog

0:51:21.920 --> 0:51:24.920
<v Speaker 3>that just came out on paperback, so get it out

0:51:24.960 --> 0:51:28.719
<v Speaker 3>of the library, which is so cool. By the way, thanks,

0:51:29.160 --> 0:51:31.440
<v Speaker 3>I'm happy that it's available. I feel like it was

0:51:31.480 --> 0:51:32.719
<v Speaker 3>always meant to be in paperback.

0:51:32.760 --> 0:51:35.480
<v Speaker 2>It's a very paperback style book. I listened to the audio,

0:51:35.960 --> 0:51:39.440
<v Speaker 2>but it is a very like as adventure. I mean,

0:51:39.520 --> 0:51:41.040
<v Speaker 2>it's not a pulp adventure novel, but it's a pulp

0:51:41.040 --> 0:51:43.319
<v Speaker 2>adventure novel describing the history of hot dogs and you

0:51:43.360 --> 0:51:44.480
<v Speaker 2>traveling across the country.

0:51:44.640 --> 0:51:45.439
<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much.

0:51:45.960 --> 0:51:48.640
<v Speaker 2>The most tragic thing that happened in these episodes involves

0:51:48.640 --> 0:51:50.640
<v Speaker 2>a hot dog and you're gonna have to wait till

0:51:50.640 --> 0:51:51.160
<v Speaker 2>Wednesday to.

0:51:51.160 --> 0:51:55.360
<v Speaker 3>Find really well, you have to wait like Tiger totally.

0:51:56.719 --> 0:51:59.200
<v Speaker 2>I want to plug that. I don't know. Listen to

0:51:59.239 --> 0:52:02.399
<v Speaker 2>other shows on cool Zone Media. You can also listen

0:52:02.480 --> 0:52:06.400
<v Speaker 2>ad free with cooler Zone Media. And also you can

0:52:06.880 --> 0:52:11.319
<v Speaker 2>go out and directly interfere with wait Nope. You can

0:52:11.440 --> 0:52:14.520
<v Speaker 2>join protests that advocate against ice.

0:52:15.360 --> 0:52:19.399
<v Speaker 3>They're everywhere and if they're not near you, yeah, make

0:52:19.920 --> 0:52:20.279
<v Speaker 3>all right?

0:52:20.719 --> 0:52:21.600
<v Speaker 2>You see you all Winston.

0:52:24.120 --> 0:52:26.600
<v Speaker 1>Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

0:52:26.640 --> 0:52:29.760
<v Speaker 1>cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media,

0:52:29.920 --> 0:52:33.160
<v Speaker 1>visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

0:52:33.239 --> 0:52:36.400
<v Speaker 1>on the Ihard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

0:52:36.440 --> 0:52:37.840
<v Speaker 1>get your podcasts.