WEBVTT - Episode 4 - Suspects and Suspicions 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:09.119 Bbcsdis before we begin, I just want a flag that 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:13.360 this episode includes some very strong language and references to 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:14.160 drug taking. 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.880 I was in the newsroom and I was about to 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:26.920 eat dinner, and I remember someone at our assignment desk. 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.040 They're the ones that hear this police scanner said Hey, 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:34.000 there's something going on in this quiet neighborhood on the 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:36.440 northwest side of town, and we need you to go 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.000 and check it out. We didn't know what it was, 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:40.520 but we knew someone was dead. 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:47.920 It's December twenty twelve and Tiffany Craig is halfway through 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:51.720 her shift at a local TV station in Houston. Her 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:55.640 dinner interrupted, she heads out to the scene of the crime. 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.760 So we got to the street. Nice neighborhood. Nice break 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:05.399 homes were just a couple of days before Christmas, and 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:07.920 there were lots of families in that neighborhood that had 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:09.119 their Christmas lights up. 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:14.240 Tiffany has reported live from countless crime scenes, but this 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:18.440 case was anything but typical. 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.000 There were lots of neighbors out, which doesn't happen all 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.280 that often. Whenever we go to crime scenes, a lot 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:26.959 of times people lock their doors and close up and 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.120 they want nothing to do. With what's going on out there, 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.399 But this neighborhood was different. This sort of thing didn't 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:33.840 happen in that neighborhood. 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:39.119 Tiffany joins the throng of journalists and neighbors craning their 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:40.720 necks to see what happened. 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.399 It was really busy, and there was lots of chatter, 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.120 and there was lots of people out there asking what 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:51.720 is going on. I remember hearing one of the reporters 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.240 tell an investigator that there was someone out there that 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:57.559 didn't belong out. 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:01.360 There, someone snooping around the crime scene. 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:05.160 They weren't a neighbor, they weren't really on the street 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.240 for any particular reason, but they were there that night 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:11.600 and then it's as if they just vanished. No one 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.880 ever heard about this person again. But they were on 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.200 the street, and it was suspect enough that somebody that 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:23.080 was with the group of reporters said something about it. 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:25.360 It's not unheard of for a killer to return to 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:30.320 the scene of the crime for some narcissistic kick. The 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.440 police ask around to narrow in on a suspect, a 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.520 local guy who'd just been released from prison with a 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:42.519 long history of stealing and pawning things. So detectives Carousel 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.320 and du say pay him a visit. One afternoon. They 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:51.040 knock on his door, but there's no answer. Try again 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:57.919 two hours later, same thing, and that's it. They don't 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.880 pursue this tip any further. I guess they didn't think 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.200 he was a viable suspect. He lived around the corner 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.240 from the Melgars and could have just been on his 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:11.560 way home. A well known ne'er dowell does not necessarily 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:16.160 mean well known murderer all the same, it's this kind 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:19.840 of behavior that would make anyone wary of the police investigation, 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:25.120 not even question this guy with a criminal record. I 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.720 can understand why Liz would maybe be cautious of trusting 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.160 the work the police are actually doing, but she has 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:37.560 no choice. She has to work with them, and that 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.920 starts with searching her old house for anything that could 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.440 be missing, anything that could be a possible clue. 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.640 And my parents the bed had been disassembled and moved 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.600 into the living room, even the carpet had been pulled 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:56.520 up and the floor had been painted over where obviously 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:57.800 there had been a lot of blood. 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:02.240 If you remember, the house had already been combed over 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:04.720 by the police and then scrubbed by the crime scene 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:08.160 cleaning company. It's impossible to know what might have been 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.040 seized as evidence and what might have been stolen. 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.600 And then I went into the garage because I knew 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.320 my dad had all those power tools and things were missing. 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:21.919 As well as finding her old backpack stuffed with the 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:25.880 family's Xbox and other valuables taken from the house, it 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.159 looks like some of her dad's tools are missing. 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.680 You could see that the toolboxes had all been rummaged through, 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:34.000 some of them are empty. 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.080 Liz checks to see if she can find any of 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.200 her dad's tools being sold online. 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.720 There's a Craigslist ad that had three of the tools 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.960 that were missing, all in one ad, exact same brand, 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.880 the exact like everything, and they were all being sold 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.960 for like two hundred dollars, which is just not yeah, 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:59.120 not the worth of I mean, maybe one of the tools, 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:02.400 but it was such a low price that it was 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:03.320 very suspicious. 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:07.640 She tells the police about the seller, wondering if this 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:10.440 new lead will be the key to finding her dad's murderer. 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.599 I had a list of suspects, which I did talk 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:14.839 to the police about. 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:20.919 Liz is investigating every possible avenue, looking at all the 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:25.960 possible suspects because in her mind, there's no way on 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.320 earth her mom killed her dad, and if she's going 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.440 to show the police she's right, she needs to find 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:42.480 out who did. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:49.760 Studios and iHeart Podcasts. This is Hands Tied, Episode four, 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:56.719 Suspects and Suspicions. 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.640 I wasn't surprised at first that they were looking at her, 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.279 because why wouldn't you. That would be stupid not to. 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:07.599 I was being realistic about it. I thought, Okay, they're 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.360 gonna look into her because like ninety percent of the time, 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:11.279 it is the spouse. 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:16.359 I mean, yeah, if we've learned anything from True Crime 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.560 one oh one, the first person the police would suspect 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:21.760 would be Sandy Jim's wife. 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:24.520 And then I thought, Okay, they'll look into her, they'll 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:28.480 see that this nothing fits that, whatever evidence they have, 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.080 they'll look into it, and we'll. 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.080 Move on, move on and start to focus on finding 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.799 the real killer. Liz thinks. 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.600 And so I felt like I had to kind of 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.840 check their work or do their work for them. I 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.720 don't know. I just make sure that I had covered 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:51.279 everything and had recorded or photographed or somehow preserved everything 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.280 that I had found or I had done in order 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:56.640 for any of it to be taken seriously. 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.919 And despite all of Liz's effort, she feels like the 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:04.599 police are continually keeping her in the dark. She says 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.640 there's been no news on the backpack and Xbox she found, 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:13.720 and no news on the missing tools. But then Liz 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.880 has an aha moment. Her dad, Jim, owned a couple 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:21.520 of rental properties. Maybe the tenants will know something. 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:25.360 So I call this guy and say, you know, I'm 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:29.200 Jim Algar's daughter, and I just want to let you 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.560 know that this is what has happened. And I had 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:37.640 the most melodramatic reaction that I had been pacing back 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.520 and forth. It just made me stop dead in my tracks, 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:44.800 and I just thought, this man is like screaming and 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.520 shouting and acting like his own mother has died. It 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:50.080 just seemed very suspect to me. 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.080 And Liz discovers this guy's behind on rent. 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.200 I did find something my dad had printed out saying 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.080 that he was going to be evicted and less he 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.120 could come up with the missing rent within this amount 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:09.920 of time. And then once they left, we go into 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:15.280 the house and there are stab marks on several of 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:18.880 the wolves and what looks like blood on some of 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.000 the wolves, and it's just like the place has been trashed. 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.960 That's got me thinking, you know, alarm bell is going. 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:28.840 So we called the police and we did have them come. 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:38.240 Case number one two one seven six two six nine. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.920 This is Sean Carriage. Here's Kenny Homicide sixty Henry thirty 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.120 nine sitting here with me. Sir, Can you state your 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:46.959 first and last name? 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.120 It's some ungodly hour in the morning when Detective Carousel 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:53.679 wakes Jim's ex tendant up for questioning. 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:59.560 And you used to run a home from him, Melgor Yes? 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:01.240 Or the address that location? 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:02.760 Hm? 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:04.040 I do? 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:13.160 It's I thought I did. I just woke up. It's 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.079 what it is, that dangn madress. 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.600 He tells the detectives. He moved out a month before 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:25.920 Jim or Hi May as he calls him, was murdered. 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:27.840 I remember between nine two thousand. 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:32.800 Okay, Uh, did you see him when you When was 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:34.240 the last time you saw Homie? 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:36.120 No? 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:40.040 I don't remember, but it was it had to be 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:41.679 at least a couple of months before that. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:42.440 Okay. 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:48.600 The house was vandalized after he moved out. He says, Okay, do. 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.840 You know anybody that would try to hurt. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:52.760 You? 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.440 Never say anything that I. 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:58.679 Can't to this day, I just can't believe it. I mean, 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:01.559 me and him talk when he came over. I mean 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.800 all I ever knew about him was he worked at 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.840 a school. He worked at a school, and anything. I 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.160 think he told me he had two in houses. 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:16.320 Okay, yeah, I'm just trying to trying to get any 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:20.000 cato inside on what if anybody, everybody that knew him. 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.840 That's what I try to meet with you today. Anything 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:29.640 else you can think of. So he talked to him, I. 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.360 Don't know why anybody would hurt him. I mean, he 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:36.200 was just the most calmest person I've ever met. 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:37.160 He was relaxed. 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.080 Karazel asks a few more questions, but twenty minutes in 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:42.760 decides he's heard enough. 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.480 It's a seven three am. It's going to be the 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:48.199 end of the interview. 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:54.080 Another suspect struck off the list, back to the drawing board. 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:03.040 In January twenty thirteen, Liz and her mom decide to 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.959 sell the family home, the thought of living there too painful. 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.679 Sandy has only been back once since Jim's murder, but 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.560 felt terrified just being there, wanting to leave before it 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:19.160 got too dark, so they began looking for a new place. 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:24.080 In February, while Liz is packing up, she notices her 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:28.480 dad safe. She'd forgotten all about it, even though it 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.920 was right there in the closet next to his body 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.640 the night he was killed. She takes a closer look 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.319 and notices blood on the handle. 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.480 So I called detective Carousel, and I asked him about it, 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.600 and he says, oh, you can just clean it like 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.560 we processed it. It's fine, you can clean it off. 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:51.960 And so I asked my husband to please do it 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:53.240 because I just couldn't do it. 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:55.280 But it gets her thinking. 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:57.760 To me, it looked like someone had tried to go 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.000 into it because the keys that were normally in the 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:02.240 safe we're on the floor. 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:07.520 Around the same time Jim was killed, Houston was experiencing 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.839 an uptick in violent robberies where homeowners were tied up 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:13.559 and occasionally killed. 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.240 I honestly believe that the point of breaking into my 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.920 family's home was not to kill anyone. It was to 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:30.040 take money, and then things just went sideways. 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.400 Back when Sandy was being interviewed by the police, she 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.079 told the detectives that she couldn't remember much about the 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.400 night of Jim's murder. The time, she says she's spent 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.679 lying in the closet, tied up, waiting to be found. 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:51.440 It's all vague, impressionistic. She was falling in and out 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:56.080 of consciousness, hearing the dogs whining, realizing dimly she was 0:12:56.120 --> 0:13:00.920 tied up, then blacking out again. But then she tells 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.480 Liz that a fragment of a memory has come back 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:04.880 to her. 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.560 She woke up for a split second and felt somebody 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.200 with their knee in her back, like pulling on her arms, 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.120 so she thinks that's the moment she was being tied up, 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.840 and that's when she saw someone looking at what the 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:20.320 person behind her was doing. 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:25.800 Sandy says that after blacking out, she came to momentarily 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.320 and saw a Hispanic woman in front of her looking 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:31.800 at the person who was tying her up. 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.880 And she said this woman looked angry, and then she 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:35.640 passed out again. 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.440 This doesn't seem like much to go on, but for Liz, 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:44.040 it's a game changer. Liz remembers what the house looked like. 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:48.400 There were clothes haphazardly tossed on the bed, dresser drawers 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:52.520 pulled open purses with their contents builled out. The house 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:57.680 looked like it had been ransacked searched. What did that 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:58.800 all kind of say to you? 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.079 I mean said that there was someone there who was 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:07.400 looking to take things for money. Even in my parents' room, 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:12.800 my mom was missing medications that people normally would abused, 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.440 so barbituates, the PhNO barbeitells she used to take for 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.600 her seizures. We didn't know if anything else was missing, 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.840 like cash, because my dad always had cash on hand, 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:25.960 but there was no cash found, so we don't know 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.840 whether he had spent it or whether it was taken. 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.080 Maybe this was a robbery gone wrong. 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.960 I can't give you any numbers on home invasions during 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.520 that year, but I can tell you that I covered multiple. 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.920 That's Tiffany Craig, the journalist we met earlier. 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:48.000 Could it be another home invasion? 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.920 This was a rampant problem in Houston back in twenty twelve, 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:57.200 so bad that several task forces involving agencies like the FBI, 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:00.240 Houston PD, and the ATF were formed to try and 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:00.840 stop them. 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:06.200 We have multiple cases where the people are tied up 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:11.160 and you have to wonder are they related? Somehow is 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.440 there something that could tie them together. 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:16.960 The similarities hadn't escaped Liz either. 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.080 I was also looking for similar crimes in the area 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.360 to see if anything could be tied together or if 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.320 it was the same people. So I did find a 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:31.600 few articles of similar home invasions, and that's. 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.200 When she stumbles across a report that seems kind of. 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:38.480 Familiar, where you know, they forced their way in when 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.200 the husband came home quite late at night. They asked 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.960 for safe they asked for money. They tied the family 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.680 up with items from the house, and then they used 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.480 like bags and baskets from the house to haul electronics away. 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.600 And that's basically how they got cause that they were 0:15:57.640 --> 0:15:59.960 able to track one of the iPads that they stole 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.480 at that home invasion, and so I really started looking 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:04.200 into this gang. 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:09.280 One of the victims, a mother, describes the family's ordeal 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.960 on a neighborhood community website. She explains how she was 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.360 watching TV when four armed men and ski masks burst 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:18.720 into the house with her husband, who was coming in 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:22.080 from work. They'd been hiding in the bushes outside and 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:26.360 ambushed him. The family, including two boys fourteen and twelve, 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:31.040 were tied up in hell hossage for two hours, she writes, 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.640 while they tore up our house, threatening to hurt us 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.000 if we did not get them money, not knowing if 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:40.520 we were going to die. Tiffany remembers that case too. 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:43.640 I know about it because it was close to a 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:48.040 family member of mine, and I remember hearing about it 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.560 because it involved children, and I know that people were 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.720 tied up, and I know they were business owners. I 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.000 remember thinking, who did that? 0:16:57.440 --> 0:16:58.240 Who would do that? 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:00.239 Who would do that to a family. 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.800 The police caught the getaway driver with the stolen property 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:07.040 in the car. A mugshot is circulated across the media. 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.280 It's a young Hispanic woman with dark hair. Liz reads 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:13.520 everything she can about the case. 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.440 And she was like, kind of the head of this 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:21.000 gang of people who were going all over Houston, targeting 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:25.040 immigrant families who were more likely to keep their money 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:29.400 at home, who had their own businesses. They hadn't killed anybody. 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.360 They had hurt people, but they hadn't killed anyone. 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.080 Liz shows Sandy the woman's mugshot. 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:39.280 Her photo was in the newspaper, and my mom said, 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:41.200 you know, she was like, I can't be one hundred 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.600 percent certain, but she does look a lot like the 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.359 person that I saw, and then I just kind of 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:47.600 went down that rabbit. 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:53.119 Hole, and so down the rabbit hole, Liz goes and 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:55.760 learns that this woman is from Columbia and has been 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.199 sent to prison for the robbery. A Mexican man is 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:03.600 also later for his involvement. Liz follows the lead and 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.959 tracks the man down. She starts writing to him in prison, 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:09.600 even goes as far as getting him on the phone, 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:13.439 where she records a conversation her relative acting as translator. 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:28.600 If I go, He tells Liz he wants to help her, 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.000 but denies being involved in both the gang and the 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:36.240 violent robberies, leaving Liz with yet another dead end, unable 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.560 to link the Colombian woman to her dad's death, but 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.480 Liz refuses to give up on that theory. 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:45.000 What is some of the evidence that this gang could 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:46.280 have been responsible for it? 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.720 So for me, it was, you know, my mom saying, 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:53.440 she does look similar to this person, but she couldn't 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.480 be one hundred percent sure because she was out of it. 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:58.760 She'd just been hail on the head, she was on 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:02.080 the ground. You know, it was like a split second. 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.679 And then I got in touch with the victims of 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:09.280 that crime and talking to them, you know, it just 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:13.520 sounded exactly the same. No forced entry, right, just pushing 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:15.760 your way in. My dad had gone to get the dogs, 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.320 he'd open the door. It would have been an easy 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:20.520 chance for someone to come in, and that would have 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:22.560 made sense as to why the dogs were barking, was 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:26.800 because someone was in the backyard. And then just everything else, 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.040 like asking for the safe. So there was a lot 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.119 that stood out to me. There's a lot of similarities. 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.879 But you know, of course I'm not the police. I 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:40.359 can't run tests, i can't ask questions. So that was 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:41.800 as far as I could get with it. 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:47.240 That the cops aren't convinced homeowners were threatened with guns 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.879 during home invasions, but they weren't stabbed to death. 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.239 The police said, you know, this seems more likely like 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:54.080 it was somebody. 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:59.240 Knew somebody who knew the family and deliberately targeted them. 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.639 And that did kind of ring true to me. They 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:04.480 knew the layout of the house, and they knew where 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:06.800 the house was located in the neighborhood, Like it's not 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.600 just on the corner on the first turn or as 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:11.760 soon as you get into the neighborhood. It's not like 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.320 in a very obvious place. It's in one of the 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.840 middle streets. It's not even on the corner the houses. 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:19.639 It's like in the middle of the street. You know. 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.480 It's just it just seemed to me that it was 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:24.280 somebody that we knew. 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:28.800 All of which gets list thinking about another potential suspect, 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:32.760 about someone from her past, a bleak period in her life. 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:34.280 She'd rather forget. 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:36.320 I don't ever want to do that again. 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:37.760 It was horrible. 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:43.080 It's something that I have zero interest in ever being 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:56.879 involved in again. So I met this guy when I 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:58.040 was a teenager. 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.680 It's the late nineties, the decade of boy bands, grunge 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.800 and light up sneakers. God, I really wanted those. 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.280 We were raised in the same religion, but we were 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.760 like there because our parents were there, and we didn't 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:15.840 really have any interest in being there, And so I 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:17.480 think that's why we became friends. 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.679 Sandy and Jim brought Liz up as a Jehovah's witness 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.240 having converted as adults. Most of their friends were Jehovah's witnesses, 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:29.000 and Jim was a respected elder in the community. And 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:31.240 what was your opinion of the church. 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:35.240 It wasn't for me, Like from a young age, I 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.080 always felt like this was not for me, This is 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.880 not my belief system. It just didn't fit, didn't feel right, 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:46.600 And you know, I was happy to humor my parents. 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.760 I had planned that, you know, when I turned eighteen, 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:53.879 I was gonna like slowly fade away and from the 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:56.040 church and like go off on my own. 0:21:57.640 --> 0:21:59.760 By the time Liz is twenty, she's no longer a 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:02.240 part at the church, but still kept in touch with 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:03.440 the friends she's made there. 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:06.679 So me and the Sky we started hanging out, and 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:09.840 you know, we liked similar music and we had the 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:13.120 similar interests, so we'd hang out. There was a few 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:13.680 people there. 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:18.520 The departure from her religious upbringing, Liz started to rebel, 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:23.120 pushing away from her overprotective parents, partying instead of praying, 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:27.000 staying out late, and experimenting with drugs, smoking a bit 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:29.119 of weed and psychedelics. 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:33.560 And then one day one of his friends came over 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:38.800 and I was introduced to heroin and it was all 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:45.919 downhill from there. We ended up using for about a 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:51.040 year straight. It was awful. I said, I can't live 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:54.080 this way. I did things I'm not proud of, you know. 0:22:54.200 --> 0:23:00.040 I stole from my parents, I you know, didn't and 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.000 did certain drugs from my mom. They were mine, but 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:05.840 she kept them because she knew I was involved in 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:08.520 these drugs. And I remember one time I was demanding 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:10.560 them of her and I was like, give me their mind, 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:13.600 you know, I want them, and it's just things that 0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:20.000 I would not normally do. I don't recognize that person, and. 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:22.840 Neither did her parents, placing a lot of the blame 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:26.440 on Lissa's friend. He changed her, took away their daughter, 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:29.960 and put a strain on their marriage, causing endless arguments 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:32.240 on what to do with Liz, how to help her, 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:34.359 and how to get this guy out of her life. 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.160 They hated him, Yeah, my dad hated him, and he 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:41.280 made no secret of it. My mother, on the other hand, 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:45.800 was a bit smarter about it because she wanted to 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:48.200 make sure that we still came to her and that 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:51.080