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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast AM. I'm Ryan

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Speaker 2: Recker joining us now is the founder and investigator of

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Speaker 2: the Mars Research Group. He's a member of SETI. It's

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Speaker 2: worked over thirty years researching Mars space NASA. It's pretty

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Speaker 2: remarkable career. George J. Has, thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: joining us on Coast to Coast AM.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Ryan, thanks real tonight a.

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Speaker 2: Lot of news about space, and we have some fine astronauts,

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Speaker 2: one of which is a Canadian, which is kind of interesting.

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Speaker 2: That's hitching a ride with the Americans that we'll be

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Speaker 2: heading up to space and taking a trip around the moon.

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Speaker 2: Are you pretty excited about this? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I graduated high school in nineteen seventy six,

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Speaker 3: so I was part of the whole bi centennial, you know,

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Speaker 3: going to the Mars Lander, and I remember in nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty nine when we landed the first humans on the Moon.

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Speaker 3: So you know, I was lucky to be at a

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Speaker 3: at an age where I could, you know, appreciate and

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Speaker 3: remember these things. So it's pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the appreciation of it, that's what I'm hoping. I

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Speaker 2: hope that a new generation can appreciate in marvel at

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Speaker 2: what it takes to do something like this. It's a

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Speaker 2: lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of money,

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Speaker 2: and I'm hoping we get something out of it. And

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Speaker 2: it's kind of fascinating too. This time around, we're going

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Speaker 2: to get much better photos and videos and hopefully things

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Speaker 2: are documented. And I know there's probably a lot of

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Speaker 2: things you're going to be looking for in a mission

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Speaker 2: like Artemis, which is set to launch perhaps April first,

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Speaker 2: at the earliest, which is a weird date, by the way,

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Speaker 2: for space launch, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I was kind of surprised that they would

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Speaker 3: pick a date like April first. It's it's kind of strange.

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Speaker 3: Probably with all of the delay, it probably won't launch

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Speaker 3: on that date, but you know, they do sometimes seem

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Speaker 3: to have a sense of humor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the astronauts have arrived at the launch site.

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Speaker 2: That happened in the last couple of hours, which is

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Speaker 2: pretty exciting. So for someone like you who have research space,

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Speaker 2: you've researched Mars, and you have a great new book out,

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Speaker 2: by the way, about researching Mars. The Great architects of Mars.

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Speaker 2: So tell me what you're going to be looking for

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Speaker 2: in this mission to the Moon. I know that they're

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Speaker 2: not going to actually land on the Moon. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of setting the stage much like they did with the

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Speaker 2: Apollo program. So they send some astronauts up and around

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Speaker 2: and back before they actually send someone down for a

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Speaker 2: mission like this. What are you looking for.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's going to take a lot of time because

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Speaker 3: they're they're sending up a lot of missions before they

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Speaker 3: actually land on the Moon. The next you know, Artemis

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Speaker 3: two is just going to be the four astronauts. Well,

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Speaker 3: they're just going to go to the Moon and go

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Speaker 3: around and come back. They're not going to land, So

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Speaker 3: it's they're being very cautious. I think about, you know,

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Speaker 3: the technology and what the spacecraft can do. And that's

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Speaker 3: the new mission that we're going to be seeing here

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Speaker 3: in April, is that they're just going to go to

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Speaker 3: the Moon, take in orbit around and come back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't We'll probably get a lot of photos,

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Speaker 2: much like some of the satellite photos you've researched to Mars.

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Speaker 2: We've seen some rover photos that gotten people pretty excited.

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Speaker 2: You know, some of the things that they've been able

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Speaker 2: to discover that way. Do you think maybe with the

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Speaker 2: advent of stronger cameras and the way that it's presented

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Speaker 2: back into the United States, maybe in video form even,

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Speaker 2: do you think we'll be able to catch something new

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Speaker 2: on the Moon maybe kind of like how you found

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Speaker 2: certain weird anomalies. We'll put it that way. We'll get

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Speaker 2: to Mars soon, but looking at the Moon, do you

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Speaker 2: think perhaps we can find some other things like that

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Speaker 2: similar there?

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Speaker 3: Well, when they had the Apollo missions, they took a

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Speaker 3: lot of photographs outside the window, you know, when they

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Speaker 3: were in the capsule doing low orbit around the Moon,

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Speaker 3: and they took some pretty striking pictures back then. And

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Speaker 3: as you say, now that we have a lot of

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Speaker 3: these high resolution cameras that they're going to be taking

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Speaker 3: on board, I don't know what the window observation events

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Speaker 3: will be, but if they were able to look out

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Speaker 3: the window and take pictures of some of the surface

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Speaker 3: features as they're going around the Moon, that would be

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Speaker 3: pretty exciting, because the original astronauts from the Apollo mission

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Speaker 3: did capture a lot of interesting things as they were

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Speaker 3: going around the Moon, just taking pictures right out the window.

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Speaker 2: What about on the dark side of it? Do you

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Speaker 2: think perhaps there's some things that we don't get a

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Speaker 2: lot of looks at that you're excited to see.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, the dark side has always been a mystery.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: The Chinese were over there, they actually landed on the

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Speaker 3: dark side of the moon, and they took a lot

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Speaker 3: of images and they found some strain things on there,

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Speaker 3: but nothing as exciting as some of the images that

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Speaker 3: we have from the Apollo missions. But yeah, I'm looking

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Speaker 3: forward to seeing a lot of the pictures that they're

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Speaker 3: going to be taking and hopefully they'll be you know,

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Speaker 3: released to the public.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so how do you It's fascinating because we could

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Speaker 2: look at the same photo and a lot of people

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Speaker 2: can look at that and say there's something strange about that,

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Speaker 2: there's something that doesn't look natural about that, And then

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Speaker 2: someone else could take that photo and say, no, it's

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Speaker 2: absolutely natural. It's just the way the formations work, it's

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Speaker 2: the way the lighting is. It's so fascinating because we

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Speaker 2: can look at the exact same picture and come to

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Speaker 2: the exact same or different conclusions. Rather, we can come

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Speaker 2: to completely opposite conclusions to it. So when we're starting

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Speaker 2: to examine some of the photographs and the evidence that

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Speaker 2: comes back from this one mission. Are you maybe a

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Speaker 2: little bit hopeful that with HD and some of these

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Speaker 2: other new technologies that maybe someone on the other side

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Speaker 2: will see it your way.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's not that I have a special ability to

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Speaker 3: see things. It's just that, as Carl Sagan said early

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Speaker 3: on that when you are looking for any signs of

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Speaker 3: artificial structures on any planet or moon or anything in

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Speaker 3: our solar system as we went out into space, he said,

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Speaker 3: the first thing you want to look for is geometry.

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Speaker 3: You know, squares, triangles, things like that, and that doesn't

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Speaker 3: normally happen in nature. And if you see a lot

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Speaker 3: of those type of formations, you see right angles and

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Speaker 3: pyramidal structures, these are signs that this isn't natural. And

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Speaker 3: I don't think there should be much of a debate

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Speaker 3: between the observer. When you're looking at natural surface features

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Speaker 3: are usually you know, organic, and there are different shapes

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Speaker 3: and very odd looking things that you find in nature,

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Speaker 3: but you don't find a lot of geometry in nature

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Speaker 3: at all. And that's what I would like for and

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Speaker 3: hopefully looking at some of these new pictures, like you're saying,

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Speaker 3: that will possibly get That's what I would look for

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Speaker 3: looking at the surface of the moon.

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Speaker 4: But I know you're going to want someone after hearing this.

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Speaker 4: This is an amazing story.

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Speaker 1: We've got Stephen and Malachi Gregory in Nelson, New Zealand.

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Speaker 4: Now I understand that Malachi, who is eight almost nine

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Speaker 4: years old now, was suffering with not just one or

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Speaker 4: two warts, but I mean a significant outbreak of warts

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Speaker 4: all over his body, so significant it impacted his ability

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Speaker 4: to really function.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he was having trouble even holding a pencil to

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Speaker 5: right Epiti's book.

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Speaker 1: Actually, that got me thinking about it. I'm not surprised.

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Speaker 1: It is an amazing immuno modulator, and so I can

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Speaker 1: see that it would work.

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Speaker 4: And so at what point did you see that there

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Speaker 4: was actually improvement it's really going to work.

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Speaker 5: Well, look, we really started to notice it around twelve weeks.

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Speaker 5: You can see these things actually getting smaller and smaller

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Speaker 5: and then going down to with just little rid monks.

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Speaker 5: The whole things are gone, and we're talking about what's

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Speaker 5: the size for Wanner. I thought, no way, that's gonna Wow,

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Speaker 5: that's just been miraculous to say him get into a

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Speaker 5: pair of shoes.

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Speaker 4: Yes, how wonderful.

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Speaker 5: It's great to see.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy and yes.

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Speaker 4: Confident, absolutely wonderful.

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Speaker 1: For instead of saying it that is blown away, TI,

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Speaker 1: this is awesome, Yeah, this is awesome.

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Speaker 6: Another amazing story. Why we're talking about Carnivora. Call them

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Speaker 6: to awaken your immune system and protect yourself now called

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Speaker 6: one eight sixty six eight three six eighty seven thirty five.

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Speaker 6: That's one eight six six eight three six eighty seven

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Speaker 6: thirty five. Or visit carnivora dot com c A r

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Speaker 6: niv O r A carnivora dot com.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting you mentioned Carl Sagan. I think

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Speaker 2: when people think about people like him, they immediately say, oh,

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Speaker 2: he would have dismissed all this stuff. But what you're saying,

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Speaker 2: I think that a lot of people look at it

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Speaker 2: and say. The whole point at Carl Sagan is you

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Speaker 2: don't dismiss it. You try to figure it out, understand it,

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Speaker 2: investigate it properly, see where the investigation leads you. I

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Speaker 2: don't think there's enough people that want to investigate anymore.

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Speaker 2: I think all they want to do is dismiss I

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Speaker 2: think it's healthy and I think it's important to investigate.

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Speaker 3: Well a lot of people don't realize that Carl Sagan

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Speaker 3: wasn't the first scientist to actually entertain the idea of

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Speaker 3: finding structures on the Moon or Mars. You know, Carl

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Speaker 3: Sagan had you know, famously found the you know, the

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Speaker 3: Sagan Pyramids on Mars in the Elysium area of Mars

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Speaker 3: through the Mariner nine images, But he wasn't the only

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Speaker 3: scientist that was looking at the possibility of finding structures

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Speaker 3: on another planet. There was a scientist named the mac

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Speaker 3: Gibson who actually was the first before Carl Sagan. He

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Speaker 3: actually had a science paper published in a science journal, Icarus.

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Speaker 3: Icarus is a high brow, you know, really prestigious journal,

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Speaker 3: and it's not you know, just sort of you know,

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Speaker 3: a common journal that anybody could get published, and this

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Speaker 3: is this is a pretty established journal. And he was

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Speaker 3: published back in nineteen seventy four, and he had a

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Speaker 3: paper called Pyramidal Structures on Mars. Before Carl Sagan, like

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy four, Carl Sagan really didn't go public with

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Speaker 3: his idea about pyramids on Mars until you know, practically

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty. You know, he had it on his TV

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Speaker 3: series and stuff. So scientists back then in the mid

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Speaker 3: seventies were actually seriously looking at images that NASA was

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Speaker 3: taking and entertaining the idea that some of these possibly

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Speaker 3: were artificial structures. So hopefully some scientists like that today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so what changed? Why the interest then? And it's

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Speaker 2: so interesting because sometimes you'll hear someone say it's been disproven,

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Speaker 2: and you'll think to yourself, hasn't really been though, or

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Speaker 2: have we just lost interest in investigating it? What do

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Speaker 2: you think this could do for future scientists. I think

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Speaker 2: that there's going to be a path for them to

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Speaker 2: honestly look into these without them being easily dismissed or

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Speaker 2: looked at as a lunatic, because I feel like in

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Speaker 2: that scientific community, if you bring up ideas like this,

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Speaker 2: or you even hint at your investigating things like this,

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Speaker 2: that you're pushed to the fringes and you're not taken seriously.

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Speaker 3: Well, you're right, this has become a fringe topic. And

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Speaker 3: like I said, early on, there were other scientists besides

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Speaker 3: Carl Sagan that were looking at NASA images and recognizing

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Speaker 3: that there was some odd structures on the surface, pyramidal

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Speaker 3: formations and things like that, and actually, you know, investigating

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Speaker 3: this and producing science papers. But with the advent of

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Speaker 3: NASA releasing that the famous picture of the face on Mars,

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Speaker 3: that kind of ended all research. After the face on Mars,

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Speaker 3: no one looked at Mars. Seriously, it was taboo. The

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Speaker 3: face on Mars just put a death nail in any

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Speaker 3: kind of research. Any time anyone was looking at anything

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Speaker 3: on Mars, you know, they were saying, oh, this is

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Speaker 3: just illusion, it's a paradolia. You know, there's nothing to

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Speaker 3: see here. Move along. And that's basically been the whole

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Speaker 3: scientific explanation for anything on Mars now. So I don't

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Speaker 3: know if anything's going to change with the Moon, even

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Speaker 3: though we do have a lot of evidence of you know,

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Speaker 3: past images showing some odd structures on the Moon. There's

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Speaker 3: all kinds of stuff on Mars. But because of the

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Speaker 3: face on Mars, I think that changed everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting whenever it depended on what you believe

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Speaker 2: or whatever you may believe, and I'm sure there's a

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Speaker 2: wide range of beliefs in this listening audience here tonight,

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Speaker 2: on coast to coast. But when someone to me, let's

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Speaker 2: say you're a neutral observer, and they say you absolutely

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Speaker 2: cannot do that. Nothing to see here, you would be

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Speaker 2: insane to even look at the other side. As soon

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Speaker 2: as someone raises that type of argument to me, I'm

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Speaker 2: pushed to that curiosity. Why are they saying that? And

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Speaker 2: is there something to this? And it's almost like this

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Speaker 2: scientific gas lighting that goes on in a way, because

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Speaker 2: if they find something they can grab onto and dismiss it,

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Speaker 2: they're gonna try to dismiss everything else when there could

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Speaker 2: be very legitimate things in there that need to be investigated.

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Speaker 2: And how much have we missed as a society from

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Speaker 2: this scientific gas lighting that we maybe could be better

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Speaker 2: off if we would have actually have taken it seriously,

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Speaker 2: went through the same scientific processes. And that's what I

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Speaker 2: worry about that sometimes we just kind of push these

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Speaker 2: things to the fringes when they don't belong there. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's kind of part of the research that

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Speaker 2: you're doing and part of the book The Great Architects

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Speaker 2: of Mars you kind of look at some of this

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Speaker 2: different evidence.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I've been looking at this stuff for thirty years.

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Speaker 3: Just so your audience knows, I'm not a scientist. My

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Speaker 3: background is an art I'm a painter and a sculptor,

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Speaker 3: so you know, I know artwork and I know a

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Speaker 3: sculpture when I see it. But as for being a scientist,

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Speaker 3: I'm not, and I don't profess to be one. But

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Speaker 3: I'm also a member of the Society for Planetary Seti Research,

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Speaker 3: and I was accepted into that group after I had

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Speaker 3: a science paper published back in twenty eleven on a

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Speaker 3: parrot shaped geoglyph on Mars. That group of myself and

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Speaker 3: my colleagues, including a two geologists, we produced a paper

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Speaker 3: on that and then we got the recognition from the

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Speaker 3: Society for Planetary Seti Research, and both my early colleague

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Speaker 3: William Saunders, and I were both inducted into that group.

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Speaker 3: And since then we've Bill and I have produced probably

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Speaker 3: I think six or seven science papers. Bill and I

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Speaker 3: co authored our first two books about finding oddities and

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Speaker 3: artificial structures on Mars. Our first two books. Of course,

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Speaker 3: my third book here is the book that came out

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Speaker 3: last year, The Great Architects.

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Speaker 2: Of Mars, right and very popular on Amazon. Will put

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Speaker 2: it that way. I know that you were trending right

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Speaker 2: up on top when it came to books about Mars, which,

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Speaker 2: by the way, and I know you have a website.

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Speaker 2: People can check out the book there. What's your website?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if the listeners want to go and they just

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Speaker 3: go over to the Sidonia Institute, that is my website.

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Speaker 3: It has a listing of all the science papers that

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Speaker 3: they can go to the website the Sidonian Institute go

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Speaker 3: to the research paper page and download the papers that

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Speaker 3: we've had published in peer reviewed science journals. There's pdf

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Speaker 3: copies there that they can read for free. You don't

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Speaker 3: have to pay for them, and links to the books

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Speaker 3: and things like that. They can contact me through the

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Speaker 3: website and I have a Facebook page. You know, anybody

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Speaker 3: out there to contact me on my Facebook page which

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Speaker 3: is just George J. Hawes. Friend me. I'll talk to you.

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Speaker 3: Have any questions you want to talk about Mars, the Moon,

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Speaker 3: anything like that. I'd be happy to talk to people. So.

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Speaker 2: I know, we can't really predict the future, but do

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Speaker 2: you think that we're going to send man to Mars

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Speaker 2: in your lifetime?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know Elon Musk probably four or five years ago,

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Speaker 3: he was all, you know, ready to go to Mars.

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Speaker 3: He wanted to bypass the Moon and go right to Mars.

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Speaker 3: And you know he got involved with the Trump administration

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Speaker 3: here early on and with the Doge program, and you know,

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Speaker 3: people were burning his cars and he had all kinds

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Speaker 3: of problems and so and I think NASA, I mean

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Speaker 3: basically Elon Musk has run NASA with their space program.

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Speaker 3: He developed these wonderful spaceships that can actually take off

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Speaker 3: and land on their own. It's pretty amazing. It's like

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Speaker 3: science fiction actually, but someone's convinced him not to go

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Speaker 3: to the Moon or not to go to Mars so quickly.

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Speaker 3: And what the program seems to be now is that

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Speaker 3: Elon wants to go to the Moon, and as opposed

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Speaker 3: to building the bases that he wanted to build on Mars,

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Speaker 3: they're going to build them on the Moon. And that's

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Speaker 3: going to be accelerated once they the Artemis I guess four,

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Speaker 3: which is coming up, which will be in twenty twenty eight,

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Speaker 3: when we actually land on the Moon and start building bases.

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Speaker 3: Eventually they're going to use the Moon as a launching point,

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Speaker 3: I believe, where it's easier to once they get a

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Speaker 3: settlement on the Moon, it's easier to launch spacecraft from

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Speaker 3: the Moon to go to Mars because there's you know,

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Speaker 3: of course, very low atmosphere, easy to do payloads and

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Speaker 3: things like that. So I think eventually what we will

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Speaker 3: be doing is sending stuff to the Moon and then

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Speaker 3: from the Moon will be sending it to Mars. So

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Speaker 3: Mars will be the next step. But currently we're going

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Speaker 3: to try to according to what I'm reading about Elon

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Speaker 3: Musk and his plan and what NASA is going along with,

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Speaker 3: is that they want to establish a base a community

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Speaker 3: on the Moon and from that point we'll go to Mars.

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Speaker 2: Right, And I've heard some people describe exactly everything Elon

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Speaker 2: Musk has done here on Earth has kind of set

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Speaker 2: up what he wants to do on Mars. So even

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Speaker 2: if you were to apply this to the Moon, once

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Speaker 2: you get there, you're going to need energy of some sorts. Okay,

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Speaker 2: he has a solar company. You need to store that energy. Okay,

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Speaker 2: he's got batteries because he's got the electric vehicles owned

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Speaker 2: by the Wave. Electric vehicles can move, so you can

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Speaker 2: have an ability to move while you're on the surface there.

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Speaker 2: If you are having trouble with radiation, you need to

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Speaker 2: go underground. While he has a boring company, it's a

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Speaker 2: dig into the dirt, so it's in Plus he's got

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Speaker 2: the internet ways to communicate the automation. He's got the

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Speaker 2: robots coming up, so there's a a lot of things

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk has done with It looks like a clear

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Speaker 2: intention of let's say, surface of the moon now if

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Speaker 2: it's not Mars. It looks like he is really setting

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Speaker 2: himself up to be very successful.

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