1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, my guest and my 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: very good personal friend is Hermann Pershner. He is the 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: founding president of the American Foreign Policy Council, a nonprofit 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 1: public policy organization headquartered in Washington, d c. His travels 5 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: have taken him to most areas of the world, including 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: more than sixty five trips to the former Soviet Union 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: since nineteen eighty nine and more than thirty trips to 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: China since nineteen ninety four and Kliston. I have had 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: the pleasure in honor of traveling with him in both 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: Russia and China, and he is remarkably knowledgeable, and in 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 1: particular he has been writing consistently for over a decade 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: about Putin and the nature of Putin's Russia. So I'm 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: really pleased to welcome back my guest, Herman Parshner. He 14 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: last joined me to talk about his book, which is 15 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: very relevant at this moment post putin succession, stability in 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: Russia's future, and I wanted to have him on again 17 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: as we mark the second anniversary of the war in Ukraine. 18 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: Permanent welcome and thank you for joining me again in 19 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: the News World. 20 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,199 Speaker 2: Thanks dude for having me on. It's always a great 21 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 2: pleasure to be with you well. 22 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: And I have to say I was just citing an 23 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: earlier book of yours about great Russian geographic expansion, which 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: I think is about twenty fourteen, and it's amazing. You're 25 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: very prescient, I think, because you go back to the 26 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: historic nature of Russia and you don't seem to be 27 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: particularly swayed by temporary things. So let me start there 28 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: with your sense of what Putin really wants and what 29 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: really motivates him off. 30 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: The Ford, Minister of Russia was asked who Pudens the 31 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: Great advisors are on Ukraine and this war, and his 32 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: answer was Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great and Catherine 33 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 2: the Great. Why because these are the three leaders from 34 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 2: Moscow that expanded the territory of Russia. Russia under time 35 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: of Ivan the Terrible was a little city state of 36 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 2: Moscow and expanded to eleven time zones. And they measured 37 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 2: their greatness by how much land they could take. When 38 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: they're strong, they took land. When they needed to recharge 39 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 2: their batteries or had a temporary defeat, they paused side 40 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: of peace. When they're stronger, they'd attacked again. And this 41 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: is his modus Operende thinking about grabbing up Kasia and 42 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 2: Ascesia de facto right after the collapse of the Soviet Union, 43 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 2: as well as Transnistria, thinking invasion of Georgia two thousand 44 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: and eight, the first invasion of Ukraine twenty fourteen, and 45 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: now back again in twenty twenty two. For this intense 46 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: war that's been going on for two years. 47 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: I'm really curious, even though Putin was a trained senior 48 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: KGB officer, with all of the implications of that, both 49 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: in terms of psychology and ideology and attitude towards killing people. 50 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: In your mind, is Putin more a great Russian nationalist 51 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: or somebody who aspires for the Soviet Union or the 52 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: two synonymous. 53 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: I think the two are largely synonymous. But there's also 54 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: another factor. It's about staying in power. If Putin cannot 55 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: show victory however he's able to sell it to the 56 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: Russian people, he's going to be out of power and 57 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: likely debt. I think when he went into Crimea in 58 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, it was in part because he was having 59 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: internal difficulties, and this was viewed as a great victory 60 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: inside of Russia, where it was generally popular. I think 61 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: going into Ukraine this time, he thought he would have 62 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: an easy victory and would buy him a more breathing 63 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 2: room in Moscow. Among some people that were less than 64 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: totally happy. 65 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: The American chair of the Joint Chiefs rely said at 66 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: the time that he expected Russian forces to be in 67 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: Kiev in three days. I suspect if Putin's generals had 68 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: a similar attitude, this whole war must be an enormous shock. 69 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: At one level. 70 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: Well, I think that's true, this misjudgment on the part 71 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 2: of the Russians as a result of the system that 72 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: Putin set up. For instance, he would say, General Gingrige, 73 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 2: here is x number one hundreds of millions of dollars 74 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 2: to refurbish the tanks, and you put half in your pocket, 75 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 2: and you give a nice coat of paint to the 76 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: tanks and send a good report. And that half that 77 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 2: you put in your pocket starts to go up like 78 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 2: an amy contract, some of it resting with Putin. So 79 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 2: he was told he had an army that was stronger 80 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: than it was, and he spent a lot of money 81 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: inside of Ukraine for people to prepare the welcome. So 82 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: they took the money. They said, mister putin the people 83 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: Ukraine love you, be open arms, resistance will be token, 84 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: and give me some more money and I'll make it 85 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: even better. So I think he was a victim of that. 86 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: The misjudgment on the American side is different and to 87 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: my mind more serious, because I'm told that we did 88 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: not have people in Ukraine with a mastery of the 89 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: Ukrainian or Russian languages and therefore limited and how widely 90 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: they could talk and circulate within Ukraine anybody that traveled 91 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: in Ukraine a lot. And I had understood that the 92 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: Ukrainian people were willing to fight, absolutely willing to fight. 93 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: They would tell you, we know a lot of us 94 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: will die, but we won't surrender the lives of our 95 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 2: children and grandchildren to Moscow. And they had a plan, 96 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 2: and they had javelins provided by the way by Donald 97 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: Trump that could stop attack. So I think our failure 98 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 2: of intelligence had to do with problems of our intelligence 99 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 2: on the ground, our technical means intercepts and satellite pictures 100 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 2: showing Russia preparing that turned out to be pretty accurate. 101 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 2: But the ability of Ukraine to fight and the inability 102 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: of Russia to fight, I think was a massive failure 103 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: of intelligence and tied in no small part to lack 104 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: of language capability. 105 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: And it strikes me that had we continued Obama's policy 106 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: of not offering lethal weapons, that in fact Ukraine would 107 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:46,799 Speaker 1: have fled. 108 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely. The javelins that turned back the tank columns approach 109 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 2: and Kiev were decisive, along with other weaponry that came 110 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: under Trump's role. 111 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: How do you measure where we are right now in 112 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: terms of just Ukrainian war to start there? 113 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 2: Well, I just came back from Ukraine. I was there 114 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: with a bi camera or bipartisan staff delegation that American 115 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: Foreign Policy put together. This was the tail end of January, 116 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: and at that point they were pretty blunt in Kiev 117 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: that they're already rationing ambunition. They're not enough arms to 118 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: go around, and if we don't get arms from the US, 119 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: which is the only country that can supply them, we're 120 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: going to start taking unnecessary casualties and we're going to 121 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: begin to lose land. And that is happening now as 122 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: we speak. People say the Ukrainian army should be bigger. 123 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: It wouldn't be bigger if they had enough weapons to 124 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: give them. But the political problem that he is if 125 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: we institute a draft and send people to the front 126 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: with no guns and no ambunition. We won't increase our 127 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: work fighting capability and we'd have big bowback is. 128 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: In the next few weeks will pass this next transchav 129 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: AID and open up the spigots again. I read one 130 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: piece which you might comment on, that the Russian armament 131 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: system has actually been rebuilt so that they now produce 132 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: about thirty tanks a month, and the entire current British 133 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: tank force is forty four tanks. It strikes me that 134 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: because Russia is such a big country and has so 135 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: many natural resources, people in the West tend to underestimate 136 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: the resilience and the capability through brute tactics to generate 137 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: power in a way that I think Westerners couldn't do 138 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: because in part we lack the Russian cultural traditions and 139 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: we don't appreciate that they're willing to profoundly shape their 140 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: standard living around the needs of the national security system. 141 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think, well that's correct, but before I get 142 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 2: into it, a quick thing about AID passing commerce. I 143 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: think it will too, but we don't have things in 144 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: the pipeline, and they're expecting a very rough March in 145 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: April before adequate weapons and ambunition reached the front, So 146 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: we should be prepared for that and not surprised if 147 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 2: there's bad news until weapons get and our ambunition gets 148 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 2: where it needs to go. Yes, or Russia is building tanks, 149 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: but the Ukrainians are knocking out more than is being 150 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: built every week. They're doing it largely with drones, which 151 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: are reshaping the nature of war, and not just with tanks. 152 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 2: One third of the Russian's mighty Black sea fleet has 153 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: been wiped out by sea drones. If this continues, they're 154 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: going to have very difficult time resupplying the troops and 155 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: occupied south of Ukraine, as well as in Crimea proper 156 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: they are refurbishing tanks from World War Two, but some 157 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: of them are subspadged shape. They're towed to the front 158 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: and used basically as artillery, and this is one of 159 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: the reasons I have a minority opinion that time favors Ukraine. 160 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: If they're properly armed, there will begin to be an 161 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: internal blowback inside of Russia. Putin survives by saying we 162 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 2: can outlast the West, and there's a horrible cost, but 163 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 2: as long as we're able to take ground, we'll rest 164 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: and we'll take more. Because everybody understands the US and 165 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 2: the West can't stay the course. They don't have the 166 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 2: stomach to compete with us. We'll just be tougher. But 167 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: if Ukraine has the weapons, takes back some land fights 168 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: to stalemate, degrades the capability of Russia to produce and 169 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 2: to transport weapons, it may be a time for reevaluation 170 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: by the Moscow elite, who privately have turned against Putin 171 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: not acting now. They're all afraid to stick their head up, 172 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: but there'll come a time where it tips. 173 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: A couple things that came up. One is I saw 174 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: a piece last week that the F sixteens are now 175 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: beginning to go operational and that they really are a 176 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: game changer in terms of Ukrainian capabilities. I mean, is 177 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: that your assessment. 178 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: I'm not sure how soon they'll be flying. My best 179 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 2: guess is to have significant numbers. Will be in the summer. 180 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 2: But right now I saw statistics over the last week, 181 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: and Russia's flying maybe one hundred and ten twenty shorties 182 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: a day, Ukraine eight or ten. So the sort ratio 183 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: is ten to one in favor of Russia. If that's 184 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 2: changed because the F sixteen's it'll make a big difference. 185 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: The other thing I'd say those fascinating is probably not 186 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: the title wrong, but the bridge that connects Crimea. 187 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: It's a kursed bridge. Ukraine has announced it has a 188 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: capable ability to take it out at a time and 189 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: place of its choosing. My guess is that will be 190 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 2: when they further degrade the naval cape ability, for instance 191 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: in the as of Sea using landing craft to bring 192 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: weapons across the ASFC and being used in Black Sea 193 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: as well. And there may be as few and as 194 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: of C as two operational landing ships now and they're 195 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: afraid to use them. They're trying to do it undercover. 196 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 2: If ukrainex a few more of those out, I think 197 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 2: they'll go after the curse bridge, and then Russia has 198 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 2: a really big problem of how they maintain a supply 199 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 2: chain into Crimea and into the southern part of Ukraine proper. 200 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: At the time that Putin took over Crimea, part of 201 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: the armament was the Krushoffer made a mistake and giving 202 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: chunks of Russian land to Ukraine. Partially, I think the 203 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: argument was that his wife was Ukrainian, but at the 204 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: time there was also in Crimea was overwhelmingly Russian. But 205 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: I'm curious, having now experienced the Russian state for the 206 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: last decade, how the sentiment of the people in Crimea 207 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: would be today and whether or not in fact Putin 208 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: could win a referendum. 209 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 2: Well, I've been in Crimea I think three times before 210 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: Russia took over in twenty fourteen, and I came in 211 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 2: knowledgeable in the referendums that had been held At the 212 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 2: time of independence. Ukraine voted about ninety percent of the 213 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 2: country for independence, and there was in eastern Ukraine in 214 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: the eighties, so overwhelmingly Crimea was close I think it 215 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 2: was fifty four forty six or some number close to that. 216 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 2: So there was pro Russian set them there. It primarily 217 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 2: was retired military people around Cevestopol and some of the 218 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: lead that have vacation there. That was the retirement home. 219 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 2: It would be the Sarasota Palm Beach for the Soviet Union. 220 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: When I traveled in Crimea, though you would find a 221 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 2: large number of Ukrainians Crimean Tartars maybe ten percent of 222 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: the population, they absolutely were pro Ukraine. The demographics have 223 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: shifted significantly now in that Ukrainians and Tartars have been 224 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: forced out and put in jail, and Russians have been 225 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: moved in to take a band under confiscated territory. So 226 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: the demographics have shifted under their occupation of Russia since 227 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, and I would think that maybe such that 228 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: there may be a majority that would be pro Russian 229 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 2: at this point, though it's hard to tell because it 230 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 2: hasn't been very pleasant even for the ethnic Russians there 231 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: because part of the deo Putin cut when they went 232 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, where the local mafia people and he 233 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 2: gave them power in exchange for helping with the twenty 234 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 2: fourteen transition, and they've wrote rough shot over a lot 235 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 2: of people Russian and Ukrainian. 236 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: Which would also fit the degree to which Putin really 237 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: had a kleptocratic. 238 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 2: State, absolutely clepthocratic. 239 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: And I think that's a little hard for Americans to 240 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: fully understand that, in fact, this is a system which 241 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: survives by fear and by corruption. 242 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, they believe in taking care of 243 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: the lead and they don't care about the people. Vasislaw 244 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: Serkov who is a longtime top aid to Putin, and 245 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: really if there was a putent brains. That's circof. He 246 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: has written about Putinism, and part of that is is 247 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: we have an historical destiny to conquer more lands. History 248 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: demands of us, the chosen people, to conquer more lands. 249 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 2: But also he poop pause any values of economic life 250 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 2: for the people. The measure of state should be how 251 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: strong your military is, how strong your forces are, and 252 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: if the people have to live poorly to give you 253 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 2: greatness through militarism, so be it. That's the attitude at 254 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: the top. 255 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: Given all that, though, what struck me about the invasion 256 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: of Ukraine, which I'm sure Putin thought would happen very 257 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: fast and be over, but because it didn't get over 258 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: in a sense strategically, and I want to get your 259 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: reaction to this, but it strikes me that the decision 260 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: of Finland and Sweden to join NATO is an enormous 261 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: strategic setback for the Russians. 262 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: This operates at two levels. At the level you raised 263 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: in indictment against Putin is very strong. Before he went in, 264 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: NATO was smaller, less funded, and less unified. Before he 265 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: went Inrussia had great influence, even dominance of the petroleum 266 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 2: and gas markets. In Europe. Now that's gone, the political 267 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 2: influence that went with his gone. The Russian army has 268 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 2: become weakened enough that you can envision them pulling out 269 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 2: of the war, having not the capability to do with 270 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: civil wars inside of Russia. And remember Russia is still 271 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: an empire. You have lots of minorities inside of Russia 272 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 2: today that would like to be independent, people in Chetshny 273 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 2: and Tartarstan and other places most Americans have not heard of. 274 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 2: So indictment against Putin is strong, but he's hanging on 275 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 2: to this idea that if he can outlast the West, 276 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 2: if he can gain any territory, he can claim victory. 277 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 2: We've taken twenty percent of Ukraine in the footsteps of 278 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 2: my predecessors, will get stronger and then we'll take more. 279 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 2: He may be able to keep in power doing that. 280 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 2: What are the implications for the West If Putin is 281 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 2: seen to be able to take territory from a peaceful 282 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 2: country through nuclear intimidation, through the strategic use of war crimes, torture, rapes, murders, 283 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,479 Speaker 2: through taking kids from Ukrainian families and put in them 284 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 2: in Russia. If he's seen to be successful in doing that, 285 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: then there's no end to it. He will do it again. 286 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: And what's more, it emboldens the Hawks in Beijing, in Tehran, 287 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 2: and in other places that are not friends in the 288 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 2: United States. That's why if you're in Taiwan or Vietnam, 289 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 2: ra have been recently, or South Korea, their national security 290 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: establishment wants RUSSA to lose because if they don't lose, 291 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 2: they're all afraid that their enemies will try to do 292 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 2: the same thing. If Putin can use nuclear blackmail to 293 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 2: take territory, why can't we. 294 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: If they actually won, in the sense of Putin, like 295 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 1: Hitler in nineteen forty, being able to go into Kiev 296 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: and be seen marching over what he has conquered, the 297 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: psychological impact I think would be far beyond any imagination 298 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: in the West. 299 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 2: I think Kenny gotten in a key of that. Quickly. 300 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 2: There would be fighting in Poland of the Baltic States. 301 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: Now, assuming we can get things through the Congress, there's 302 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: a fairly realistic likelihood we'll have a new and dramatically 303 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: tougher president in January. And it's clear that the Europeans 304 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: are gradually steadily muscling and men becoming more engaged. Is 305 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: the goal to actually fight back to the status quo 306 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: three years ago with the Russian still in eastern Ukraine 307 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: and Crimea, Or is the goal to actually drive them 308 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: back to the Russian border. I mean, what would you 309 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: say strategically the Allies should be trying to do. 310 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: We should try to go back to the two thousand 311 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: and one borders, which are the borders when the Soviet 312 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: Union collapse. Can that be done? I don't know, but 313 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 2: we shouldn't give up without trying. And the Europeans have 314 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 2: caught on to the fact that Russian's imperial ambitions go 315 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 2: beyond Ukraine. This is why now I think we're maybe 316 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 2: number fifteen in terms of the percent of GMP we 317 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: give to Ukraine. It's why total aid from Europe now 318 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 2: is larger than from the United States. It's why Finland 319 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: and Sweden have join NATO. They're scared about further Russian ambitions, 320 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 2: so it's costly for us to help, but be far 321 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 2: more costly if we don't stop Russian nout. 322 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: I've been looking for years at Kaliningrad. Here you have 323 00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: this enclave between Poland and Lithuania, which I think putin recently. 324 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: Actually visited there and they clearly have been putting very 325 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: sophisticated weapons. They have nuclear weapons there, And it strikes 326 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: me that he clearly, if he could win in Ukraine, 327 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: he probably would pivot first to the three Baltic States. 328 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: Well, that's right, he does not have land access to 329 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 2: Clintingrad now, but the thought was that he would go 330 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 2: through part of Poland and maybe the Baltic States as 331 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 2: well to give him land access. You know, this was 332 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: Dan sick in World War Two, so he watched some 333 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 2: equivalent of the Danstick cornder. 334 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: That whole nocean. Plus you can imagine that the Russian 335 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: speaking parts of Estonia, Latfia, Lithuania will suddenly decide that 336 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: they're being mistreated, precisely like the Sedate and Germans in 337 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty seven thirty eight. I mean, this is an 338 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: old playbook. 339 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 2: It's the battle Plant. Absolutely. 340 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: How do we convince sort of skeptical conservatives that our 341 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: interest in Putin being defeated is enormous and that secondary 342 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: considerations can't allow him to win. 343 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 2: I think we need to improve the database of people 344 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 2: that don't understand this on the right, and that's going 345 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 2: to happen to large measure by travel to the extent 346 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 2: that people can go more than a two hour photo 347 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: op in Kiev, but to be there for at least 348 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 2: a few days, to talk at different levels, and not 349 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 2: just in Ukraine, but to go in Germany and Poland 350 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 2: and the Baltic States, which are safer and you can 351 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 2: stay longer. I think the more knowledgeable our conservative colleagues are, 352 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 2: the better the policy will be. I think it's a 353 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 2: fact deficit. 354 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: Somebody said to me that there's a proposal now in 355 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 1: the House that's bipartisan that would provide all the defense 356 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: A but not the economic aid, and so have several 357 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: other steps. There's a very serious proposal to confiscate, for example, 358 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: all of the Russian assets that are outside Russia, which 359 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: is about three hundred billion dollars, and turn it over 360 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: to Ukraine. So then the fact the Russian money would 361 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: be helping fight the Russian attack. But it struck me 362 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: when I talked to somebody who knows a great deal 363 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: about the House, they said they thought, if this bill 364 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: gets to the floor, it gets three hundred votes. 365 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: I'm hearing the three hundred vote number in the House 366 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: for aid to Ukraine. I don't know about this specific bill, 367 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 2: But what the United States uniquely could do is give 368 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 2: them weapons. I think the dollar amount can be picked 369 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 2: up either by Europe or through confiscation and Russian assets, 370 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: and I'm in favor of both. 371 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: When you're faced with really a two front competition Russia 372 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: on one front, China on the other, and North Korean 373 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: and Iran is very real threats in the age of 374 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, that we have to have defense industrial base 375 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: that is first of all, dramatically more modern. The point 376 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: you made, for example, about drones and the remarkable impact 377 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: they're having, and we have to have a big enough 378 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: and a modern enough defense industrial base to be able 379 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: to compete both with China and with Russia simultaneously while 380 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 1: blocking Iran and North Korea. 381 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: There was a wonderful study done early in the Trump 382 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 2: administration on the weakness of our industrial base that should 383 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: be dusted off and be part of the discussion. 384 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: Have you been mildly pleased by the degree to which 385 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: the Europeans in fact are shifting as they better understand putin. 386 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 2: Yes, you know, going into Ukraine at the end of January, 387 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: we stopped in Warsaw, and in conversations there we were 388 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: told that the polls are taking some comfort that the 389 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: rest of Europe is understanding there are arguments which been 390 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 2: making for years about the danger of Russian imperialism. The 391 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 2: polls privately will say that should Ukraine collapse, they're going 392 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 2: to have to put several hundred thousand people on the 393 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 2: Polish border to prevent a quick land grab by putin 394 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 2: ahead of a frozen war. So the danger is being 395 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 2: felt first by the countries that are closest to Russia, 396 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 2: but is being felt by Germany and others as well. 397 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 2: I think the UK understands it pretty well. Was there 398 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 2: a few months ago? 399 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: Biden announces five hundred additional sanctions. I think we began 400 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: the sanctions dance with the invasion of Crimea ten years ago. 401 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: Do these things really bite? Do they have an effect? 402 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: I think it's a good press release. I think it 403 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 2: helps marginally. But you can't equite sanctions with Hi mars. 404 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: I understand there are almost one thousand high mars that 405 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 2: were getting ready to destroy because they're old. But if 406 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: they were shipped to Ukraine, they were still usable for 407 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: a period of year. Why aren't we doing that? 408 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: But that's sort of typically the whole bureaucratic way we've 409 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: approached this thing from day one. We have not had 410 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: an aggressive effort to sort through all of our assets 411 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: and put them on airplanes, which frankly drives me crazy. 412 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: The other part of that is, it seems to me 413 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: we have to recognize that there are times when hard 414 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: power is the only thing that works. That if the 415 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: other guy has mal once said, all power comes out 416 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: of the end of a rifle, So we have to 417 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: be prepared to win that fight, as well as to 418 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: do all these various diplomatic dances. And I think that's 419 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: still very hard, not just the American people. The American 420 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: people probably are psychologically more aware of that, but our 421 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: establishment seems amazingly averse to dealing with the reality of 422 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: real power. 423 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 2: I think the Biden administration has been self detoring with 424 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 2: regard to Russia. We have delayed sending weapons six months, 425 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 2: eight months. A lot of it has been sent, and 426 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,479 Speaker 2: some creditors certainly due for sending those weapons, but we 427 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: don't have a sense of urgency and time. A year 428 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: ago I was talking to the National Security Advisor. There 429 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 2: is and what's the hardest thing you have to explain 430 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 2: to Americans? It said time time. We needed these things 431 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 2: in time right. 432 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: And this is where Trump is so radically different from 433 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 1: Biden and the Trump has an instinctive sense of the 434 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: importance of decisive movement quickly and that you need the 435 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: shock effect of it being very fast and often surgical. 436 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 1: I want to thank you. I'm sure we're going to 437 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: ask you again in the future to come back and 438 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 1: share again. And knowing you, I'm sure you will have 439 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 1: been in ten or twelve countries by the time we 440 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 1: do it. Your commitment and frankly, the American Foreign Policy 441 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: Council that you founded and have led do an amazing job. 442 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: I read a lot of your documents. You've assembled a 443 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: brilliant a team of younger analysts, and you have a 444 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: great program of taking people around the world and trying 445 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: to get them to learn personally. I really appreciate you 446 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: taking the time to help us better understand what's at 447 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: stake and what Pudent's strategic threat is to the lives 448 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: of all of us. 449 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 2: Thank you, Newtics a great being with you, and we 450 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 2: appreciate your kind words very much. 451 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Terman Personner. You can learn 452 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: more about the American Foreign Policy Council on our show 453 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Gingrish 454 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan 455 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 456 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks the team 457 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: at Gingrishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope 458 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with 459 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can 460 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of nuts 461 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: World can sign up for my three free weekly columns 462 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: at gingliswie sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. 463 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: This is Nutsworld.