WEBVTT - Unsustainable Outrage 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.400 Good morning, peep Sena. Welcome to wikate F Daily with 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:19.840 Meet your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker Friends. 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:25.000 Coming up next is my weekly conversation with our friend, 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:28.800 doctor Jonathan Metzel, and I have to tell you that 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:31.360 I'm just going to give you a warning it is 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:36.320 not an uplifting conversation because we're talking once again about guns. 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:43.040 This week, we received an update about the shooting of 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:45.919 the twenty five year old teacher in Virginia by her 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:52.440 six year old student, and I just don't have the 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:58.600 ability anymore to sustain outrage, just from my own mental 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:03.280 health and well being. That being said, I just am 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:09.360 beside myself that a six year old bringing a loaded 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:18.200 weapon to school, critically wounding their teacher is not receiving 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:25.720 wall to wall coverage. How fucking broken is America at 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:31.240 this point? This is the thought that just keeps consuming 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:37.440 my thoughts. I used to work, as many of you 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.679 know who've listened to the show for a while, My 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:45.000 background is in education, in education policy. I was an 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:49.840 elementary school teacher. I taught first in second grade for 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:52.640 a couple of years before I went to Capitol Hill 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:56.320 to work on education policy, And I have got to 0:01:56.360 --> 0:02:00.760 tell you that all I keep thinking about when I'm 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:05.160 thinking about this six year old is a like my 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:09.320 former students who are now totally grown kids, but like 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:16.079 their faces and their inquisitive nature and the fact that 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:20.680 I'm going to be honest with you, they're not adults 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.280 by any sense of the imagination. They're not even tweens. 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:29.919 But they are learning right from wrong. They are understanding 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:35.600 and learning about expectations, both by their families and by 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:42.240 their teachers. You're learning your roles. What the fuck is 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:48.480 going on when one a six year old has ready 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:54.280 access to a loaded weapon knows that it is a 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:59.160 weapon that causes harm? What is going through their mind 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:04.160 when they packed that weapon in their bag and went 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:11.320 to school. That's the one thing. The second is why, 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:16.200 why in God's name, if you are a gun owner 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:22.120 do you not have your gun under lock and fucking key, 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:28.400 like I'm talking like fingerprint style lock and key in 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.120 your home, out of the reach and out of the 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:37.000 sight of fucking children. How do we not have legislation? 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.160 And one of the questions that I will ask Jonathan, 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:46.480 and he provides an interesting answer to is should we 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.560 And again I don't know in what society this is 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.160 going to happen in because we can't agree on, you know, 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.800 the existence of climate change. We can't agree on, you know, 0:03:56.080 --> 0:04:00.200 fair elections. We can't agree on whether or not gravity exists, 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.800 like in this current fucking climate of America. But should 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:11.080 there be the pursuit of laws on the books that 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:18.480 would make it criminalized If your weapon is not under 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:22.600 lock and key, a child gets access to it and 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:27.520 kill somebody or critically wounds them, should you not be 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:35.640 held liable because the responsibility is on the gun owner. 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.320 I mean, I have so many questions about what is 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.400 happening in that home, What is going on with that child? 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.279 Were their red flags? Why is a gun just laying 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.919 a fucking around. There are so many questions that have 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:56.680 yet to be answered and probably never will be. But 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.600 I'm like, if you want to carry a weapon, if 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:04.159 it's a fucking constitutional right to do so, must the 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:10.080 rest of us live in a hostage zone? Because I'm 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.440 telling you, we are finding so many ways to make 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:19.599 it certain that those that want to educate kids, those 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.560 that want to be teachers and caregivers, are going to 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:31.520 run from this profession Because I'm telling you that in 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:38.000 this day and age, I would never My sister, as 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:42.480 you all know, is a teacher. She's working at an 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:49.680 independent school in New York. And you know, thankfully the 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.800 school that she is working at is currently, you know, 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:58.760 very small and is really about you know, progressive ideas 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.839 and all of these things. But that doesn't mean that 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.400 the community is okay with that. That doesn't mean that 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.400 I'm not concerned about somebody coming into that school and 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.800 wanting to shoot it up. And that should not be 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.359 a thought. My sister never had to think about those 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:19.520 things when she was teaching abroad, and I think it's 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:23.640 absolutely insane that one of the things that has her 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:28.120 wondering if she wants to continue with education in a 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:37.200 classroom capacity is her own safety. I don't know, folks, 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:39.159 I don't know what the answer is, but I got 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.040 to tell you that this story, among so many others 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:49.839 recently about children being shot and shooting other people is just, yeah, 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.920 I guess we have it outrage fatigue as to why 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.320 this isn't making the kind of news that it should. 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:59.039 I don't know. Coming up next my conversation with our 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:05.719 friend Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know that whenever we have 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.919 the opportunity to talk with our in house doctor, doctor 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.400 Jonathan Metzel. I am always pleased, and folks, you know, 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.600 I also want to shout out people who have been 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:20.920 sending dms and tweets Jonathan to us about appreciating that 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:25.760 our consistent conversations around COVID. I know that for some 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.040 people that can be like, oh, why are we still 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:30.520 talking about this? Well, because five hundred people a day 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:34.280 are dying still of COVID nineteen and so, Jonathan, I 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:36.960 just want to say to you, I consistently appreciate our 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.560 in depth conversations that we get to have on the 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.480 issues that are just not being touched upon in the mainstream. 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:49.920 That being said, another conversation that I am just blown 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.680 away is not receiving the type of world of Wall 0:07:53.760 --> 0:08:00.360 media coverage that it should is the horrific incident that 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:07.280 happened in Virginia at an elementary school. A six year 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:13.680 old dear friends brought a gun to school let off 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:20.440 one round. Teacher twenty five years old, took a defensive 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.720 posture put up her hand. The bullet went through her 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:27.720 hand and into her chest. The child, now Jonathan is 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.240 in custody. No idea what is happening with their parents? 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:33.880 But I just want to open up my first question 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.640 with you, which is just like, what the fuck, Like, 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.560 how could this? And I say that I don't even 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.760 say it tongue in cheek. I'm just like, what does 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.880 it say about a country where a six year old 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:50.920 can bring a loaded weapon to school point and direct 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:56.080 it at a teacher, critically injuring them, and it doesn't 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:03.719 make the headlines? Well, you know, I mean, first of all, 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.200 you're right, it is a horrible tragedy, and it's a 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:09.480 tragedy on so many levels. So I just want to 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:12.079 acknowledge that I'm not in any way making light of it. 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.240 But I would say that the headlines around this story 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.800 were so bizarre, right, because first there's this thing six 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.640 year old shoots teacher and you just think, like, what 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:25.840 world am I living in? For? So first when you 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.080 see it, it's like a six year old shot a teacher. 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:32.840 That's insane. And then the headlines after that are the 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.840 gun was legally obtained, Like the headlines last couple of days, 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:40.480 it was a legally licensed weapon of the mother, right, 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.720 and so oh oh, that explains it. It was a 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.800 legally obtained firearm that in that case never mind and 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:52.439 so and then there's a discussion about like should this 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.280 child be charged? You know, like and you just think, like, 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.960 on every level, there's so much wrong. But I would 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:01.679 say that it ties back to a lot of stuff 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:03.480 we talk about when we talk about guns here, which 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.560 is it's about habituation. Right, fifteen years ago, a story 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.599 like this would have been like a national reckoning. It 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:15.480 would have been, um, you know, where have we gone wrong? 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:19.199 Even like ten years ago. But it's just the level 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.360 of the level of violence, really the level of everyday 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.720 violence that we're used to, that all the debates after 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:30.400 this are you know, should they have metal detectors and schools, Oh, 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.520 they don't have them in every room whatever. I'm just like, 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.560 like that, the metal detectors are not the fucking problem. Yeah, right, 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.200 like that. It's it's and and to your point, it's 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.720 not even I don't care if the weapon was illegally 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.200 obtained or legally obtained, the fact that you have a 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:51.520 loaded gun in your frigging home that is not under 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.880 somebody's lock and key, and that we don't have laws 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:57.920 in Virginia or I don't know, Jonathan, you tell me, 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.840 in what states do we have pause that require gun 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:06.160 owners to have their guns under lock and key out 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.280 of the reach of children, And like, you know, the 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:12.880 thing is like, you're almost not talking about a law here. 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.520 It's so obvious in a certain kind of way. I know. 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.160 But I'm like, if you can be held criminally responsible 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:24.480 and or liable? Right, I don't know. I mean, the 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.440 thing is like, I'll argue both sides of this, right, Okay, 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.760 this case because on one hand, it would a criminal 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:36.880 would liability? Would would lock? Would Would it matter in 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:38.920 this case if it's a mother, I think as I 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.880 understand it a single mother, as as I'm not sure 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:46.360 that's the story I saw, Um what would would would 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.760 would it? Would it criminalizing the stop it from happening? Um, 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.000 I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:55.600 But I can say the flip side not about this 0:11:55.679 --> 0:12:01.040 particular case. Um, yeah, this case happened obviously in Virginia. 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:05.400 Virginia actually has some gun laws, not a ton they 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.240 used to have a lot more. Um. But but I 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:10.560 would say the flip side of it, having not to 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.760 do with this case, is about this question of liability 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:15.360 and the reason I'm saying that is because we had 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:19.440 a case here in Tennessee about ten years ago, which 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.360 is I mean, like there's a there's there's no hierarchy. 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.320 We're at the bottom of the horrible pyramid here. But 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:28.079 the case we had here is a seven year old 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:32.439 shot a four year old from an unsecured gun. And 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.480 I can say that there is The bigger issue is 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:40.480 that in Tennessee, we tried to say, um, we're gonna 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.000 we're gonna make parents, We're gonna make pass a law 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.000 that parents have to lock their guns when their kids 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.640 are around, um to prevent possibly prevent this from happening again. 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.120 And I will say it was almost part. It was 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:53.720 one of the reasons why I got into this whole 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:59.439 field is that Democrats agreed, Republicans agreed. Everybody agreed, we 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.720 have to lock up guns when they were kids around. 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.240 It was such an obvious case. It was called mckayley's law, 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.760 and the group that I'm affiliated with, Safe Tennessee was 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:09.800 one of the leads of this. It was happening like 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.360 in rural Tennessee, and everybody agreed. The judge agreed that 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.960 people agreed that the vote was going to be the 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:21.440 next day, and somehow the day before the vote happened 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.920 to make it a law that the gunners had to 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.440 lock up their guns. The n RAY sent in a 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:32.200 ton of lobbyists and basically, they're very powerful here. If 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:34.839 we if we kneecap you guys, you're never you know, 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:36.640 we're going to run billboards again to you, we're going 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:38.760 to come out against you. You're never going to see 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.280 elected office again. And they threatened the people who were 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:43.840 going to vote for it, and the next day all 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.640 the Republicans voted against it. Because the n RAY was 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.520 such a powerful lobby they were going to vote they 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:51.320 were going to vote them out in a certain kind 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.800 of way. And so the issue is first of all, 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.600 seeing up close the power of what that means, because 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.880 they were not they were not they were not kidding, right, 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.920 they really could have. You know, people who crossed the 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.080 NIRA here, they're they're gone, right, They're gone, And that's 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:10.200 just the way the system works. So what I learned 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:14.400 about this was, first of all, even something is uncomplicated 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:16.680 as like let's lock up guns when kids are around, 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.720 it's like this mentality of you give them an inch, 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:21.040 you give them the whole thing. We're not going to 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:23.960 give an anything. So this seems like the most obvious case. 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.320 Number two is that if gun reform wants to get serious, 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.680 it has to actually buffer. It has to give a 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:32.520 room for these people in the middle who want to 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.040 do the right thing, like you know, we're going to 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:36.920 mobilize to keep you in office, or we're going to 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.200 all vote for you as a Republican or something something 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.080 like that. Like, the thing is, the threat of losing 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.360 their job was so real, the n RA power was 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:48.640 so real that even in this case, it just turned 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:50.520 the votes and we lost the case. I mean we 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.160 lost the case. I mean that that to me, like Jonathan, 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.240 in this instance, right as you're talking, I'm thinking to myself, Okay, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:14:59.680 let me think about this through the lens of the 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:10.000 is bullshit evangelical pro lifers who walk around towns with 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:16.120 these horrific made up images of twisted bodies, right, twist twisted, 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.120 twisted fetuses, Right, this is the thing that they do. 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:24.760 Everybody has seen this. How is it that we on 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:30.280 the side of sanity do not use that same logic, 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.880 right that say, which is illogical, but use it in 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.800 a logical way. That is, how are you four seven 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.360 year olds with guns? How are we not running then 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:48.080 campaigns that say, if you are voting against a measure 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.560 that is about keeping children safe, but you call yourself 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.760 the party of Family Values, then clearly you don't want 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:58.160 children safe, you want them riddled with bullets. So why 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:03.560 don't we have then Micailey's face and whomever's face that 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:08.000 has been taken by gun violence up on these signs 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.200 and saying, if you're voting against this, then you want 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:15.040 children dead like that because because you want to go 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:17.600 at it with the oh will rally around you and 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:19.840 keep you safe. And I'm like, fuck you, because it's 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.640 not about them wanting to keep their jobs. They want 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:26.080 to keep power. That is, that's a completely different conversation. 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.440 That's exactly right now that you're exactly right. And what 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:32.000 I would say is there's no counter to that power. Right, 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:33.960 the n RAY is threatening to take away their power, 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:36.760 but there's no flip side in a certain kind of way. 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.480 I mean, certainly we rally after mass shootings and all 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:42.320 these kind of things, but I would say that part 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:46.400 of the issue the NRA. In the book I'm writing now, 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.120 it talks about how the left doesn't understand gunpower. That's 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:53.800 kind of one of my arguments because even what you 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:58.240 just said implies there are rational actors who will be 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:02.000 swayed by, you know, voters who will see the images 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.840 of these kids and stuff like that. But the thing is, 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:07.520 the NRA has already leveled the playing field, I mean 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:11.000 as already one. It's like the n RA already owns 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.320 the judges and the politicians right right, and so in 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.920 a way, by the time it gets to the rational 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:18.720 voters whose minds might be swayed, the whole thing is 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:22.800 already the whole thing is already decided in a way. 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:24.639 And so I mean, part of what I'm trying to 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:26.920 think about, and I don't know the answer, is like 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.119 the gun safety movement needs to think much more about 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.439 not just leveling with like the reason of people, but 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.480 also like how do you get like upstream power in 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.679 a way, because again there's this case and so many others, 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.080 there's no counter Like the n RA can come in 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.440 and say we control the system. Either you agree with us, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.560 or you're kneecapped and you're swimming at the fishes or 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:54.160 horseheads in your bed or cement cement, you know, ski 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.880 boots or something like that, but there's no counter to that, right. 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:00.399 The only thing we have is like a linked to 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:04.080 people's moral thing to vote differently than they do and 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.119 unfortunately or to act differently they do. It's just like 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.479 we're already way too downstream, right, So the question is like, 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:12.560 how do you get up to the level of power 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.440 where there's a stake to play at the level of power? 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:17.720 And that's the hard question for this gun debate, right, 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.200 because like the gun rights movement always says like eighty 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.800 percent of people agree with background checks, and that's great, 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.879 but it does also doesn't matter because the other side 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.480 already controls the judges and the politicians and the Supreme 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.639 Court and all that stuff. And so the question is like, 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.000 what does upstream gun safety power look like? That's a 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.359 really hard question, right. I don't know, but I think 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:43.200 it's kind of in line with your question, right, which 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:47.040 which is I mean, the nr I figured it out, right, 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.399 They figured out the power is in judges. That that 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.359 was their insight, and then they own the judges and 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.239 my and my feeling is that, okay, so we're not 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.480 going to get those judges back. Sure, we have Joe 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:02.880 Biden as an office, right, now that has appointed more 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:07.760 federal judges than Obama did in his first term. So great, 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:11.080 we're on the right path, except you know, we have 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.600 to ensure that Biden gets a second term, and then 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:16.480 we have to ensure after that that we have Democrats 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.440 consistently down the line in order to be able to 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:21.960 and we hold the Senate in order to be able 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.040 to get these judges approved over and over again. Right that, 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.480 we have to over index in a way of judicial 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.440 appointments in order to catch up with the way that 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.639 the Republicans have been able to rewrite the judicial map. 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:39.240 I believe, however, that we can actually own the narrative 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.840 and the media and the information landscape that there has 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:48.360 been no continued push except outside of these outraged headlines. 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.919 Right that then dissipate the reason why. And here's a 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:56.240 question for you, Jonathan, like, why do you think that 0:19:56.359 --> 0:20:00.480 a six year old shooting their teacher and critically wounding 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:06.680 them is no longer headline news? Is it? Because we 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.200 needed that six year old to take out the entire 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:14.920 fucking classroom? Because that's our bar Now, well, I mean, 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.359 I'm not trying to make any moral equivalence. This is 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:25.920 a horrible tragedy. Uvaldi was even yep, bigger tragedy. And 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.880 Uvaldi did get the media attention, and it did get 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:34.600 the headlines, and it did kind of get some nominal 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:38.200 legislation passed. But even then we went back to the baseline. 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:42.600 And so I just think that the outrage about these cases, 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.360 it's certainly what you have to do to mobilize your side, right, 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.600 But I just feel like, I don't know. I don't 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:51.440 mean to be too defeat us, but I mean, at 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:53.800 times like this, and certainly I think there is something 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:56.560 about the media narrative. You're exactly right that the reason 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.600 something like this disappear from the headlines. I have no 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.600 evidence for this, but it's not an accident, you know, 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.159 And that's what and that's what I think. Yeah, I 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:09.920 agree with you. No, there's there's bots, there's disaformation, there's 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:14.600 algorithms like, it's not disappearing from headlines by accident. Um, 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.920 just like after mass shootings they disappear. And I think 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.159 it's not just people lose interest. I mean they do, 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:25.080 there's science on that, but it's also that, um, there's 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:27.720 something driving this out of the headline that I think 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.199 is not an accident. Now that being said, I just 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:35.359 think that outrage alone is not a motivator. And why 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.440 isn't not a motivator? Um, it's not a vote motivator 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:43.080 because gun rights people vote much more reliably than gun 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:46.960 control people, No doubt that that shown again again, even 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:50.200 though the guns are a wedge issue, pro gun people 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.879 will vote much more reliably um on the issue of guns, 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:57.600 um than than other people other people care about other things. UM. 0:21:57.600 --> 0:21:59.800 So that's that's one thing. But again the other is 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:04.879 we're just three decades behind in the game for judges. Like, 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.560 to me, that is the that is the entire story 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:12.400 that and you and I've been talking about it, oh 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:16.280 for like three years every single week, which is that 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:22.040 absolutely Like, there's this horrible case, and then there's the 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:25.320 Supreme Court of the United States where we've got three 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.960 Trump judges who were A rated NRA and two other 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:33.600 a rated NRA people and they're ruling. Last year, as 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:38.840 we talked about, made doing anything about cases like this unconstitutional. Right. 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:41.240 According to the Stroom report, if Virginia wanted to do 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:43.880 something about this, they would have to if they wanted 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.280 to pass a regulation, that regulation would have to be 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:52.200 in keeping with the desires of white men who wrote 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:56.359 the Constitution like seven thousand years ago, and so in 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:59.840 a way, the framework on which we can do something 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:03.000 about it is just so much smaller, like we just 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:06.639 don't recognize that. And so I think the issue is 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:09.119 part of the issue. And I know I say this 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:12.439 all the time and it's probably like whatever, but you 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:16.000 have to see where the power lies, right, gun power 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.040 is identified power, and you have to kind of counter 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:22.160 that with your own power. And unfortunately, even though moral 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:25.520 outrage is important in these cases, and this case is 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.160 horrible and it's just like, get me the hell out 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:32.920 of this country. Is six year olds are shooting their teachers. 0:23:33.040 --> 0:23:35.199 But I also think that you have to learn from 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:37.320 the NA It was a strategy over the past four 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:41.879 decades where they realize where power lay. And so I 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:44.200 don't know, I just you mean, think about how many 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:48.720 times you and I have said judges, judges, judges. Yeah. 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:54.560 I mean, it's just, you know, it is really hard 0:23:55.080 --> 0:24:02.520 not to have a defeatist and just a deflated, deflated 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:07.600 emotions around this, you know, and just feeling like we 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:13.879 as normal average American citizens are just being held hostage 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:19.080 in so many ways by the zealots, and that there 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:22.760 isn't any time that we're going to see in our 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:29.160 lifetime relief. Because if we're talking about three decades behind 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:33.520 in terms of judge appointments, then we're talking about what 0:24:34.080 --> 0:24:37.800 having how many Democratic presidents in a row and holding 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:40.320 the Senate for how long in order to get this 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:43.359 in order to even even out, you know, it seems 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:50.120 it seems absurd. You know, the the Gun Control Act 0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:53.640 of nineteen sixty eight was a pretty big achievement, right, 0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:55.600 It was a pretty big achievement. I mean there were 0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:58.679 problems with it, right, but we passed legislation in nineteen 0:24:58.800 --> 0:25:05.080 sixty eight that did a lot of stuff. And even 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:08.960 the Crime Bill in the eighties, which is or nineties, 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:11.520 which is bad in a lot of ways. It had 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:14.880 an assault weapons ban as part of the crime bill, 0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:17.200 the one that Joe Biden gets, you know, so much 0:25:18.400 --> 0:25:22.440 blowback about. But but when's the last time you saw 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:25.600 a gun reform case go before the Supreme Court? We've 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:28.480 had tons of gun rights cases. I mean I can 0:25:28.560 --> 0:25:32.600 reel them off, you know, from you know, two thousand 0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:35.959 and eight, twenty ten, twenty twelve, two years ago with 0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:38.760 New York and then twenty twenty with New York, like 0:25:39.359 --> 0:25:42.119 gun rights cases go before the Supreme Court all the 0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:46.000 freaking time. When's the last time we had a gun 0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:50.840 safety case go before the Supreme Court? I don't know. Yeah, 0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:54.800