1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today on the bright Side, New 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: York Times bestselling author Jay Courtney Sullivan is here with 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: us for this month's edition of shelf Life. Her novel 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: The Cliffs is Reese's book Club pick for July. We're 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: talking about the power of writing personal stories and the 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: curious ways she finds inspiration. It's Monday, July twenty ninth. 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: I'm Simone Boyce. 8 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright Side from 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together to 10 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: share women's stories, to laugh, learn and brighten your day. Simone, 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: I'm so happy to see your face. We got a 12 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 2: lot of FaceTime this past week in Nashville. 13 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: Yes, it was so fun to hang out with you 14 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: in a different setting and just decompress with some of 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: our favorite Hello Sunshine girlies. I also got to catch 16 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: up with some of my really good friends who lived there, 17 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: and I stayed an extra day at in airbnbus. This 18 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: historic home with beautiful floor and beautiful staircase. It's just 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: so charming there. The architecture in Nashville is amazing. 20 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 3: I know you love great decor. 21 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: It's true. I'm a sucker for it. 22 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 2: I hope you had an amazing extra day there. It's 23 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: so fun in Nashville. 24 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: I had the best time. Okay, Bessies, it's on my 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: mind Monday, you know what time it is. It is 26 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: an opportunity for us to start the week with some 27 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: fresh perspective. 28 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 3: Yes, Simon, what's on your mind? 29 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: Girl? 30 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 2: Okay? 31 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: I want to talk about this article that I came 32 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: across in The Atlantic called Why You Should Trust your Gut. 33 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: And this article lays out away to help us recognize 34 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: that gut feeling in our own bodies that can help 35 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: steer us in the right direction. 36 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 2: That's really interesting because we hear gut instinct that term 37 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 2: all of the time, and we're told to trust those instincts, right, 38 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: But I think it can feel very vague. So I'm 39 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: wondering if the article lays out tangible ways for us 40 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 2: to know how to listen to our gut. 41 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: So the writer Arthur Brooks, he's one of our favorites. 42 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: He writes a lot about happiness and contentment and just 43 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: optimizing your life, and he says that you should pay 44 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: attention to three key feelings in any gut reaction, excitement, fear, 45 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: and deadness. So obviously you can guess what excitement is. 46 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: It's the one that he says that should never be absent. 47 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: So you should always feel prospective happiness or some sort 48 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: of joy for what you think is to come. And 49 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: then there's fear, which can manifest as both danger and dread. 50 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: And the writer says that danger in the right dosage 51 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: can be positive, but dread is never good, and dread 52 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: is like one degree away from deadness. So as you 53 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: can imagine that's really nice, comes to the bright side 54 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: on Monday, you gotta have the deadness to find the brightness. Okay, 55 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: I like it. Life's all about contrast, right. So deadness 56 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: is what Arthur Brooks describes as the feeling that's associated 57 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: with numbness, loneliness, hopelessness, and despair. And when it comes 58 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: to gut reactions, he says, that's a sensation that you 59 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: want to look out for and avoid. So all in all, 60 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: when making a decision based on your gut, we should 61 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: be using this metric system, this three prong test of 62 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: a lot of excitement, some fear of danger, and almost 63 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 1: no deadness. I'm going to go for no deadness. That's 64 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: my goal. 65 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 3: Let's do no deadness. 66 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: I actually think it's really interesting that he cites two 67 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: of these sort of negative emotions fear and deadness or dread, 68 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 2: because I have mixed feelings on gut instincts. So there's 69 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: a lot of evidence to support that gut instincts are 70 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: actually just an amalgamation of all of our past experiences. 71 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. 72 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: So when you get a gut instinct or that intuition, 73 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: you have to make sure that you're not confusing it 74 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 2: with familiarity, because familiarity can be bad patterning and you're 75 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 2: not even recognizing it right. So I think a really 76 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 2: good example of this is hiring. Imagine that you are 77 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: hiring for an important position at your company and there's 78 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: a candidate that walks in for an interview and something 79 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 2: about them just feels off to you, even though they 80 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 2: have a great resume, great references. There's just something about 81 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: it that in your gut feels like it's not the 82 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: right fit. A lot of times that can just be 83 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 2: unconscious bias because you haven't had experiences with that type 84 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 2: of person. And I actually think the same goes for dating, 85 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: that sometimes people miss out on awesome people because they're 86 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: used to dating somebody that's familiar to them. I think 87 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: we just have to make sure that we're separating our 88 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: intuition from our familiarity because we could be missing out 89 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 2: on some great stuff. 90 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: That's a really good point, and I really want to 91 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: learn more about the research behind that, because that sounds fascinating. 92 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 3: Our guest today is someone. 93 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: Who seems to have a really good grasp on feelings, excitement, fear, joy, 94 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: and most importantly, inspiration. 95 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's so true, Danielle. So every month we 96 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: interview the Reese's book Club author in our segment called 97 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: shelf Life, and this month's author, j Courtney Sullivan, writes 98 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: generational stories about women, and what's unique about her is 99 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: that she's often inspired by places and objects that she 100 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: comes across in her own life. But the key distinction 101 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: is these are places and objects with a soul. Like 102 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: in the past, an engagement ring inspired her book The Engagements, 103 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: and most recently, an abandoned house in Maine was the 104 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: source of inspiration for her latest book, The Cliffs. Wow, 105 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: you know this got me thinking about a major source 106 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: of inspiration for me. As a little girl, I became 107 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: known as the castle girl in kindergarten, Danielle. 108 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 3: In kindergarten. 109 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: Yes, in kindergarten, because I would just draw castles, pictures 110 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: of castles all day long. I was like really fascinated 111 00:05:55,200 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: with royalty, with enchanted, living with motes. I don't know, 112 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: I was just obsessed. So this castle obsession of mine 113 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: evolved into a secret garden obsession. You know how there 114 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: are like horse girls. I was like, I became a 115 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: Secret garden girl. And I became obsessed with that movie, 116 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: The Secret Garden. I just loved the aesthetic of it 117 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: and the story and the emotion behind it, and really 118 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: this idea of like happening upon this magical, verdant place 119 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: where I could escape. And one day it happened to me. 120 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: I was playing in my backyard in Miami, and I 121 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: was kicking a ball around with some friends, and I 122 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: kicked the ball into this patch of palm trees, and 123 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: so I go through there looking for the ball, and 124 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: I had my own little Narnia moment because I climbed 125 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: through the palm trees to find that the ball is 126 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:52,799 Speaker 1: now inside of this outdoor room that's encased in trees. 127 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: And there's this one really big tree that was like 128 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: perfect for climbing, and it had all these incredible thick 129 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: roots and life like vines hanging from it. And it 130 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: was one of the coolest discoveries of my entire life. 131 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: And this little secret garden became my escape in my 132 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: own backyard. 133 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 2: You must have felt like you could manifest anything I did. 134 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: That secret garden became such an escape for me. It 135 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: was a place where I could bring my friends, where 136 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,239 Speaker 1: we could turn our imagination on and turn the world off. 137 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: And it has given me this sense of hope that 138 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: you can still find enchantment around the corner in your 139 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: everyday life. And I think j Courtney Sullivan, our guest today, 140 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: feels the same way. 141 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you can tell that just from reading her book. 142 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: I cannot wait to talk to her. So after the break, 143 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: Courtney's telling us what it's like to have her work 144 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 2: celebrated by incredible women like Gloria Steinham, Oprah Winfrey, and 145 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 2: of course Reese Witherspoon. We're also going to chat with 146 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: her about writing from personal experience and the power of imagination. 147 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 4: That's up next. Stay with us, y'all. 148 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 3: Courtney, welcome to the bright Side. 149 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. 150 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 6: So. 151 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:22,119 Speaker 2: You're really known for these multi layered generational stories about women, 152 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: and your first book commencement was recognized by Gloria Steinem, 153 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: Oprah Winfrey, and of course our own Reese Witherspoon. What 154 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 2: does it mean to have these women celebrate your work? 155 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 5: Oh, it's completely incredible. When Gloria Steinem blurbed my first novel, 156 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 5: I was working as a research assistant at the New 157 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 5: York Times. Yeah, and I was used to answering the 158 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 5: phone for my boss, who was an abed columnist who 159 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 5: got calls from all kinds of incredible people all the time. 160 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 5: So the phone rang and she said, Hi, this is 161 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 5: Gloria Steinem, this is Courtney and I said yes, and 162 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 5: She's said, okay, do you have a pen? I'm going 163 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 5: to tell you the blurb. And I was like what? 164 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 5: And I literally almost fell off my chair. It was 165 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 5: such an extraordinary moment. 166 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 3: I just don't know where you go from there. 167 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: It's so unbelievable, Like, especially because your ethos is so 168 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 2: built around sharing women's stories, that sort of acknowledgment just 169 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: must have felt pretty incredible. 170 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 5: Absolutely. 171 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: Yes, you say that your primary obsession with fiction is 172 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: this idea that quote the moment a woman is born 173 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: will determine so much of what she's allowed to become. 174 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: That is such a powerful thought. Can you share what 175 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: you mean by that? 176 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 5: Yeah. I think all of my books, although they're very 177 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 5: different in their subject matter, come back around to that 178 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 5: central idea, of course, their self determination. But also we 179 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 5: always exist within the confines of our cultural moment. So 180 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 5: when I'm writing about generations of women in one family. 181 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 5: My book Saints for All Occasions is about Irish Catholic 182 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 5: family very similar to my own in some ways, And 183 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 5: I think about the matriarch in that book, who, like 184 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 5: my own great grandmother, came over alone from Ireland at 185 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 5: the age of sixteen to Boston and is the reason 186 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 5: our family has been American ever since, you know, And 187 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 5: I think about what I was able to do when 188 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 5: I was sixteen, and the thought of just like crossing 189 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 5: an ocean and starting a whole new life is so 190 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 5: incredible to me. That was my great grandmother in her 191 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 5: particular moment, and because of what she did in her 192 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 5: particular moment, each subsequent generation has been able to get 193 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 5: as far as we've been able to get. 194 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 3: Do you think about her and like call in her strength? 195 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 4: Ever? 196 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 5: Oh? Yeah, definitely. I mean this book the cliffs is 197 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 5: you know, very woo woo in a lot of ways, 198 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 5: and I'm pretty woo woo in a lot of ways, 199 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 5: And so I almost think of my grandmother, my great grandmother, 200 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 5: or my mother, myself, you know, my daughter now, like 201 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 5: versions of the same person, just with different external possibilities, 202 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 5: and of course that shifts and changes who you are 203 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 5: internally as well. And I with every book I write, 204 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 5: you know, I wrote this novel, The Engagements, and that's 205 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 5: the only book I've written that had a real person 206 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 5: at its center. Francis Garrity, who wrote the line A 207 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 5: diamond is Forever in the nineteen forties, and I still 208 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 5: think about her all the time. I even this is 209 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 5: really woo woo. Had when I was really in the 210 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 5: thick of writing that book, I had a dream where 211 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 5: like I was her in the dream from her point 212 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 5: of view, which I've never had that happen before. I 213 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 5: don't know if that makes sense now, but I get 214 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 5: so close with all the women in my books, she's 215 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 5: the only one who was actually a real person. 216 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 2: And I actually think that one of the things that 217 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: feels really distinctive about you and your writing that I 218 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: haven't heard a lot of authors say is that you 219 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 2: include a piece of your personal story in your novels. 220 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: With the Cliffs, your main character, Jane and her family 221 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 2: struggle with alcoholism, and you've shared that you are eight 222 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 2: years sober, which is just such a huge accomplishment, and 223 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: so I'm curious as to why you wanted to include 224 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: that in this story. 225 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I think that when I'm writing a novel, 226 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 5: it's never because I feel like I have this clear 227 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 5: cut thing to tell the world or that I have 228 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 5: all the answers. It's more that whatever the burning question 229 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 5: in my mind is, I want to explore it and 230 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 5: find out how I really feel about it. And the 231 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 5: way to do that for me is writing fiction. That's 232 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 5: sort of how I process everything. And so for me 233 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 5: writing this book, you know, I started it four years 234 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 5: into being sober, and I've been working on it for 235 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 5: four years. In some ways very helpful because Jane is 236 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 5: such a hot mess of a drinker that it didn't 237 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 5: make me want to drink, you know, writing what she 238 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 5: does all the time is like, oh, thank God, I 239 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 5: don't drink anymore. But I think when you are a drinker, 240 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 5: when you have made mistakes like Jane does, like I 241 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 5: have the silver lining of that is like, you forgive 242 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 5: people more easily. You understand that everyone makes crazy mistakes 243 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 5: all the time, and people have forgiven you, so you 244 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 5: can extend that grace to them. Jane, I wanted her 245 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 5: to be in the process of figuring it out, so 246 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 5: she isn't, you know, wildly drunken. In every chapter, she 247 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 5: isn't reformed. She's kind of in the middle, and she's 248 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 5: still hoping she doesn't have a problem even though she 249 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 5: knows she does. And I think most alcoholics have that 250 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 5: experience where you know you'll go through the checklist. I 251 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 5: certainly did this where you're like, okay, ten signs that 252 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 5: you might be an alcoholic, and you go through nine 253 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 5: of them and can check them off easily, but the 254 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 5: tenth one is like do you pour cut into your 255 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 5: cheerios in the morning, And you're like, oh, I don't 256 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 5: do that. Okay, good, can continue freak. I also really 257 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 5: wanted to write about because I think it's very common 258 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 5: of a high functioning woman, a woman who's so good 259 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 5: at her job, a woman who people don't think of 260 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 5: as an alcoholic until you know she's very good at 261 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 5: kind of siloing these different parts of her life until she. 262 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: Is You mentioned that every book starts with an open 263 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: ended question for you, what was the question that launched 264 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: the cliffs. 265 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 5: That's a great question. So this time around, I write 266 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 5: a book about this woman who reluctantly returns to her 267 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 5: hometown and this big Victorian house. And in the process 268 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 5: of writing this book, I have left New York after 269 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 5: twenty two years there, moved home to my hometown, something 270 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 5: I truly never in a million years thought would happen. 271 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 5: And my husband and I and our kids now live 272 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 5: in this Victorian house with a plaque on the front 273 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 5: door that is exactly like the house in the book. 274 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 5: I've moved back to New England, and I think a 275 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 5: big part of the question I was sort of probing 276 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 5: was like, we are so interested in our own history 277 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 5: in New England. We're all about the first you know, 278 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 5: what was the first? And so in the book, there's 279 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 5: a plaque on the side of the house and it 280 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 5: says it's the Samuel Littleton House, right, and it has 281 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 5: the date that this house was built. Really, it's the 282 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 5: lives of women that have sort of permeated that house 283 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 5: and the land on which it sits, and the idea 284 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 5: that if you put your name on something, if you 285 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 5: put a plaque on something, that means you discovered it. 286 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 5: I wanted to kind of really explore that and turn 287 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 5: it on its head, and this sort of idea of 288 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 5: retelling history, looking at it through a different lens and 289 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 5: thinking about whose stories do get told and uplifted and preserved. 290 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: Well. 291 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: On that note, your editor posed a question in the 292 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: reader note at the beginning of the book, and it 293 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: really sparked curiosity and a new train of thought for me. 294 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: The question is what belongs to us after we die? 295 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: So how do you answer that question? Now? 296 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 5: That's such an interesting one. Yeah. So, you know, in 297 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 5: this book, we have Jane, We have this present day storyline. 298 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 5: We have Jane dealing with her drinking and her marriage 299 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 5: imploding and her life imploding on several fronts. But we 300 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 5: also have the stories of all the women who lived 301 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 5: in this house on this land over four hundred years. 302 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 5: And even though for the most part they do not meet, 303 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 5: I really thought of them as being in conversation with 304 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 5: one another through time. Sometimes they are literally in conversation 305 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 5: with each other, but mostly it's what each one leaves 306 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 5: behind and the next one sort of picks up, if 307 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 5: that makes sense, And so I think I kind of 308 00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 5: could go one of two ways. On the one hand, 309 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 5: we're looking at it through Jane's very realistic archivist eyes, 310 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 5: your story passes on to whoever it is who wants 311 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 5: to tell it or doesn't, depending And then there's this 312 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 5: other really sort of supernatural part of the book, which 313 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 5: is the belief in an afterlife, the belief that, you know, 314 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 5: mediums can connect us with lost loved ones. And I 315 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 5: think every novel comes from a whole bunch of places, 316 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 5: and often you're asked to kind of pinpoint like the start. 317 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 5: So I always say with this book, it was this 318 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 5: house that I discovered that was the basis for the 319 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 5: house in the book. But there were a lot of things, 320 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 5: and one of the things was that a couple of 321 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 5: my very close friends had lost their mothers. One of 322 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 5: the first things they did after they lost their mothers 323 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 5: was try to connect to them through mediums. And I 324 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 5: thought that was so moving and profound and interesting that 325 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 5: when we lose someone in our grief, sometimes what we 326 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 5: believe in, you know, we're willing to expand the boundaries 327 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 5: of that. 328 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: So I know you're was inspirational for your creativity in 329 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: this book, I'm wondering what the most outrageous or sort 330 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 2: of outlandish object is that you've ever used for creativity 331 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 2: in your novels oooh, I love that question. 332 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 5: So in that book, The Engagements, there are these sort 333 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 5: of secret memos between the ad agency that Francis worked for, 334 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 5: which was called NWAIR and De Beer's Diamonds. And these 335 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 5: secret memos went back and forth every year between the 336 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 5: two and they had been quoted in some nonfiction books, 337 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 5: but I was never able to locate where they were. 338 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 5: I was told that they were at the Smithsonian at 339 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 5: Boston University. I went on this wild goose chase, could 340 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 5: not find them, and I came to believe that no 341 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 5: one had ever really seen the memos. And on the 342 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 5: day this book was due to my publisher, it was done. 343 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 5: But I was going to Francis Garretty's house. I had 344 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 5: contacted the woman who bought the house from her. Francis 345 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 5: had been dead then for many years, but I just 346 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 5: wanted to see the rooms that she occupied, you know, 347 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 5: I just wanted that small touch. And when I was 348 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 5: leaving that woman's house, she said, by the way, when 349 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 5: I moved in here, there was a box of papers 350 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,479 Speaker 5: in the basement and I never got rid of it, 351 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 5: would you like it? And it contained all the secret 352 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 5: company memos that I'd been looking for for four years. 353 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 5: So I feel like, you know, when you look at 354 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 5: these little intimate details, sometimes huge things come out of that. 355 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 3: That gave me the chills. That is so very cool. 356 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 5: I ended up getting an extension on the book so 357 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 5: I could work them into the book, and I feel 358 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 5: like it just enriched it so much. But I also 359 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 5: have like her childhood photographs. Like one of the things 360 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 5: I learned just through getting that box of papers was 361 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 5: that Francis dressed as a boy when she was a 362 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 5: little girl. So I thought was really fascinating. You know, 363 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 5: in the nineteen tens and nineteen twenties, she dressed as 364 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 5: a boy and her parents called her Frank. And so 365 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 5: I have some of these old black and white pictures 366 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 5: in my house in frames, and my kids are like, 367 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 5: who's this Is this a great great grandparent? You know, 368 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 5: I'm like, no, this is Francis. I've made my family 369 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 5: go to her grave. I mean, I'm pretty I'm in 370 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 5: deep with her. The other thing is that when I 371 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 5: was writing that book, The Engagements, I did a lot 372 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 5: of research at the Slessenger Library and Cambridge, which is 373 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 5: this wonderful archive of American women, and they have the 374 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 5: papers of Julia Child and Amelia Earhart and all these 375 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 5: fascinating historical figures we all know. And I thought a 376 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 5: lot about Francis when I was there, because she always 377 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 5: felt like she did not get the recognition she deserved 378 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 5: during her career, and so it was sort of a 379 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 5: dream of mine to eventually create an archive for Francis 380 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 5: at the Slessenger Library, which I have done in the 381 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 5: last couple of years. So now you can go there 382 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 5: and all the secret company memos. If anyone wants to 383 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 5: see them, they have to go to Francis Garrity's archive 384 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 5: at the Slessinger Librzing. And of course Jane in the 385 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 5: Cliffs is an archivist at this lessons Our Library. So 386 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 5: I knew when I went there now twelve years ago 387 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 5: that I really would love to include it in a book, 388 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 5: because I think they too, are sort of really hooked 389 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 5: into that idea that the moment a woman is born 390 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 5: will determine a lot of who she's allowed to become. 391 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: Courtney, your work reminds us of the paradoxical nature of life, 392 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: like how life can be sometimes ephemeral and also everlasting 393 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: at the same time as you explore the linkages and 394 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: connections between the women that are in your stories. So 395 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: what do you want readers to know about how to 396 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: make the most of their moment? 397 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 5: I just think so much of it is about constantly 398 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 5: returning to like what a little speck we are, you know, 399 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 5: each of us is, and in the long story of 400 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 5: the planet and our species and all of that, you know, 401 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 5: we can get so hung up and so stressed out 402 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 5: by the smallest things, myself very much included. I'm not 403 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,959 Speaker 5: as enlightened as I would like to be, but I mean, 404 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 5: it's so funny, one of my favorite things to do, 405 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 5: and it's kind of started. I started writing this book 406 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 5: almost exactly four years ago, and it was I don't 407 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 5: know if you remember what was going on in the 408 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 5: summer of twenty twenty, but we were all kind of 409 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 5: cooped up and at the time my kids were really little. 410 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 5: My daughter was like eighteen months old and my son 411 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 5: wasn't even three, and it was just completely bananas. You 412 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 5: couldn't take kids anywhere, and we were living near Albany, 413 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,479 Speaker 5: New York. So the two places that we could go 414 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 5: and just kind of like let them run free that 415 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 5: were close to where we lived were the cemetery and 416 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,239 Speaker 5: the Shaker Village, which then of course made its way 417 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 5: into this book too. And I love going to cemeteries 418 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 5: because they just put in perspective. I feel like you 419 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,719 Speaker 5: walk your cemetery, at least I do. I always end 420 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 5: up feeling full of hope and full of kind of like, Okay, 421 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 5: my problems aren't that bad because I'm here, I still have, 422 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 5: you know, time to go. The other day, I was 423 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 5: having a terrible day and my husband's like, do you 424 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 5: need to go to a cemetery? And I was like, 425 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 5: you really get me. 426 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: Yes, we always say touch grass here on the bright side, 427 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: but maybe we should be saying touch graves. 428 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 5: Maybe that's touch grass in a cemetery. Honestly, yeah, yeah, 429 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 5: very great? 430 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 3: Is it that it's like you are? 431 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 2: It reminds you of like what to do with that 432 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: dash between the dates? 433 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 5: Yes, And it's crazy because you see you think, oh 434 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 5: my gosh, this person only had you know, whatever it 435 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 5: was twenty two years or sixty five years, no matter 436 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 5: what the number of years. It usually doesn't feel long enough. 437 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 2: We have to take another short break, but we'll be 438 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 2: back in just a minute. 439 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 3: Don't go anywhere. We're back with author j. Courtney Sullivan. 440 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: Well, every month we invite our Reese's Book Club authors 441 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: to share a passage from their novels. So will you 442 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: share with us? Can you set up this scene for us? 443 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 5: Would love to so bringing us back to the sort 444 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,719 Speaker 5: of idea that this novel started with a house. Maybe 445 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 5: ten or twelve summers ago. Now, my husband and I 446 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 5: and our two friends were driving around in southern Maine 447 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 5: and we came upon this abandoned house. It was just 448 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 5: so mysterious. It was beautiful. It was perched on a 449 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 5: cliff on the ocean and fully furnished down to paintings 450 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 5: on the walls and rugs on the floors. And like 451 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 5: every kid who ever read Ralstein or Pardi Boys or 452 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 5: Nancy Drew or even just watch Scooby Doo is like, 453 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 5: what happened here? I need more information? And so we 454 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 5: kept going back every summer. We were fascinated, why is 455 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 5: this house abandoned? And you know who lived here? And 456 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 5: where did they go? And why did they leave? And 457 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 5: why did they leave in such a hurry. After a 458 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 5: few years, we arrived once and the house was gone, 459 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 5: and in its place was the foundation of this massive 460 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 5: mic mansion. And the house that was built in its place, 461 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 5: to my mind, was pretty soulless. So in the cliffs Jane, 462 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 5: who has always loved her whole life this old, abandoned house. 463 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 5: The summer that she moves home, she comes to find 464 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 5: that it's been renovated. It's been made into just kind 465 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 5: of an open concept, all white, boring thing by this woman, Genevieve. 466 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 5: In this passage, Jane is at Genevieve's house for the 467 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 5: first time, so it's the first time she's been at 468 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,719 Speaker 5: the house in its new incarnation. On their way outside, 469 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 5: Jane excused herself to use the new bathroom on the 470 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 5: first floor, the powder room, Genevieve called it. She didn't 471 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 5: actually need the bathroom, she just wanted a moment to herself. 472 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 5: The space was small and windows with ridiculous wallpaper, black 473 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 5: with a pattern of hot pink flamingos that made her 474 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 5: dizzy to look at. Jane supposed it must be fashionable, 475 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 5: or else Genevieve wouldn't have chosen it. But to her 476 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 5: it fell off. Two pages from Main Coast magazine hung 477 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 5: on the wall, matted side by side in a gilded frame. 478 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 5: It took her a minute to comprehend why the cover 479 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 5: shot was familiar. She was looking at a picture of 480 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 5: the house. She was standing in that open kitchen, all 481 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 5: that white history meets modernity when an eighteen forty six 482 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 5: beach house gets a makeover. Jane read the opposite page, 483 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 5: which contained a lot of quotes from Genevieve and her 484 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 5: decorator about the many lengths to which they had gone 485 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 5: to honor the house's legacy. Perplexing, she thought, given that 486 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 5: they hadn't really There was a sidebar about Genevieve's purchase 487 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 5: of a Native American basket, presumed to have been made 488 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 5: in the middle of the nineteenth century right here in 489 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 5: southern Maine. Missus Richards bought the treasured Abenaki basket from 490 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 5: an au adapt whit based antique stealer. I saw it 491 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 5: and fell in love. It was so beautiful. I had 492 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 5: to have it, she recalled. Jane thought of the baskets 493 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,239 Speaker 5: she had seen at the exhibit in Portland a few 494 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 5: days earlier, created by people who each came from a 495 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 5: long line of basket makers intent on preserving their traditions. 496 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 5: This house, as designed by Genevieve didn't feel like a 497 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 5: satisfying final destination for such a creation. She understood completely 498 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 5: now why Genevieve irked Allison so much. Even so, Jane 499 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,959 Speaker 5: couldn't quite believe she was here in this place she 500 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 5: had once known so intimately, not trespassing on to some 501 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 5: stranger's land now, but invited in going up the stairs 502 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 5: without fear of falling through through them, flushing a toilet, 503 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 5: about to enjoy some nibbles on the patio, as Genevieve 504 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 5: had said, honestly, who said nibbles? Jane took a deep breath. 505 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 5: She opened the bathroom door and went toward the back 506 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 5: patio where Genevieve and Benjamin were waiting. Passing through the 507 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 5: big open space between the white kitchen and the white 508 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 5: family room, Jane saw the basket sitting on the coffee table. 509 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 5: She went right up to it. The braeding had a 510 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 5: pattern of dark blue birds around the rim. To Jane, 511 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 5: the basket radiated story. She wondered where it had been 512 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 5: these past two hundred years, where exactly it was made, 513 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 5: and by whom. 514 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: I have such a clear visual When you say the 515 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: basket radiated story. I love that phrase. 516 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 2: It feels like very metaphorical as well for the ethos 517 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 2: of your writing. Have some listener and reader questions for you, 518 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: and so let's hear what Shanna from Oklahoma had to say. 519 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: Hi. 520 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 7: I'm Shanna from Oklahoma. I'm a school librarian and I've 521 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 7: been trying to take my son to all fifty states 522 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 7: and last summer we actually went to Maine and your 523 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 7: book helped me to go back to those places. And 524 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 7: I love that in your book you have a quote 525 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 7: that says it never failed to astonish Jane that an event, 526 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 7: a local tragedy, could shape an entire generation and then 527 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 7: be forgotten. I feel like stories like yours help these 528 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 7: things to not be forgotten. And I was wondering if 529 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 7: there was an event in your life or in the 530 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 7: world that you've noticed that you feel like isn't discussed 531 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 7: enough and might be forgotten itself. 532 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 5: Oh. I love that question, Shanna. Thank you so much. 533 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 5: And also I just want to say that school librarians 534 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 5: are my favorite people. Our school librarian is just a 535 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 5: total hero and he is improving the lives of kids 536 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 5: every day. In ways big and small. So thank you 537 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 5: for what you do and thank you for your question. 538 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 5: In my book Maine, my second novel, that's when I 539 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 5: kind of started thinking about this because in Boston in 540 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 5: the nineteen forties, there was a fire that really shaped 541 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 5: that whole generation of people in the city of Boston. 542 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 5: It was at the Coconut Grove nightclub, and my great 543 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 5: grandfather was a firefighter. He reported to the scene of 544 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 5: that fire believing that one of his daughters was inside, 545 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 5: which she was not. There were so many, almost five 546 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 5: hundred young people who died in that fire, and so 547 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 5: people in Boston talked about it, knew about it. It 548 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 5: was passed down in my family and many other families. 549 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 5: So I wanted to incorporate the Coconut Grove into the 550 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 5: story of the novel main but I almost felt like 551 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 5: is it over told? And so I sent this email 552 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 5: to maybe like thirty people, all of them in their 553 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 5: twenties and thirties, and all of them from the Boston area, 554 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 5: and said, do you know about the Coconut Grove fire? 555 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 5: And to my great surprise, I think only two people 556 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 5: said yes, I've heard of that. That was so astonishing 557 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 5: to me that something that had shaped a whole generation 558 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 5: of people in Boston, and this is just in one city, 559 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 5: let alone the whole country or the whole world. Two 560 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 5: generations later, it was sort of all but forgotten. And 561 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 5: so that was probably the first time that I decided 562 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 5: I want to uplift the stories of real people who 563 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 5: have been forgotten. And so in that story, in that novel, 564 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 5: all the characters who are in the coconut grove, who 565 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 5: die in the coconut grove or survive were all real 566 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 5: people other than the main characters of the book. 567 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: That was one of my favorite parts of being a reporter, 568 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: was just telling real people's story. 569 00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 5: I goth me too. 570 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. It really is. Everyone has such 571 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: a rich story they just have to be uncovered. But 572 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: you did bring up main character, and our next listener, Ashley, 573 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: has a question about that and the state of Maine itself. 574 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 6: Hi, Courtney, can you talk about the state of Maine 575 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 6: and how you have managed to make the state really 576 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 6: a main character in your books. How has your perception 577 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 6: of the state and your relationship with the state evolved 578 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 6: as you've written more books using the state as a 579 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 6: backdrop and a main character. 580 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 3: That's a good question, and it's so good. 581 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 5: Yeah. So I grew up in Massachusett. It's not far 582 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 5: from Maine at all, about a ninety minute drive to 583 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 5: southern Maine. And you know, every summer of my life, 584 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 5: I've gone to Maine for some portion of time, whether 585 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 5: it's with my parents and my sister when I was 586 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 5: a little girl, now with my own children and my husband, 587 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 5: between those two, with my best friend, and still with 588 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 5: my best friend. So I feel like when I go 589 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 5: to Maine, you know, I see all these different versions 590 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 5: of myself there. When I am in a gun Quit, 591 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 5: there's like a little patch of beach that every time 592 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 5: I walk by it, I remember being twelve years old 593 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 5: lying there with my grandmother on that beach that we 594 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 5: both happened to finish the novels we were reading at 595 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 5: the same time, and so we switched. And my grandmother 596 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 5: has been gone for so many years, but whenever I'm there, 597 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 5: I can just like see her there. I'm sitting there 598 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 5: writing a story. And so I think when we have 599 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 5: these places where we go, particularly on vacation, it's easier 600 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 5: to access those memories because it's such a small portion 601 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 5: of our overall lives and generally a more contemplative, laid back, 602 00:33:54,680 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 5: you know, version of ourselves. But with this book, I 603 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 5: really wanted to probe more deeply into the history of Maine. Now, 604 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 5: when you cross into Maine from New Hampshire, there's a 605 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 5: big sign that says welcome to Maine, vacation Land. But 606 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 5: of course that is true for those of us who 607 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 5: are tourists in Maine, but there's a much broader, larger 608 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 5: story to be told there. The Abbey Museum in bar Harbor, 609 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 5: which is a museum of Wabanaki history, the indigenous people 610 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 5: of Maine. They have on the homepage of their website, 611 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 5: not just vacation Land homeland. And I think a big 612 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 5: part of this book is not just about history and 613 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 5: what is forgotten, what isn't told, but also what are 614 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 5: we willing to grapple with and what are we willing 615 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 5: to receive? Because history is only as good as those 616 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 5: of us who are currently living and are willing to 617 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,720 Speaker 5: learn about it and experience it and you know, evolve 618 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 5: from it. So I think that's kind of where I 619 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,720 Speaker 5: am with Maine right now, and writing this book allowed 620 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 5: me to learn so much more about Maine and go 621 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 5: to so many more places than I'd ever been. And 622 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 5: I'm actually going to Maine for nine days of book 623 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 5: tour tomorrow, and I feel like, wow, I plan that beautifully. 624 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 5: I get to go to Maine for nine days for 625 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 5: work in July. What could be better? I mean, look 626 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 5: at this. 627 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 1: You went there as a kid growing up with your grandma, 628 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: and now you get to do it and get paid 629 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: for it and do what you love at the same time. 630 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: So cool. 631 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 632 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for sharing women's stories and 633 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 2: for sharing your story here with us. 634 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 3: We appreciate your time. 635 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 5: Thank you so much, with such a pleasure. 636 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Courtney, Thank you. 637 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 2: J Courtney Sullivan is a New York Times bestselling author 638 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 2: and the July pick for Reese's Book Club. Her latest novel, 639 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,800 Speaker 2: The Cliffs, is available wherever you get books. 640 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: Listen along to The Cliffs on Apple Books, Reese's Book 641 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: Club's official audiobook home. Thank you to our bright Side 642 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 1: besties Shanna and Ashley for joining our book club today. 643 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: We'll be announcing the August Pick for Reese's Book Club 644 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: next week, so stay tuned for your next go to read, y'all, 645 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: and as always, you can send your author questions to 646 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: Hello at the Brightside podcast dot com. Well that's it 647 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: for today's show. Tomorrow, we've got award winning economist Emily 648 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,760 Speaker 1: Oster joining us. She is talking all about the challenges 649 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: of pregnancy and parenting from a data driven perspective. Plus 650 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: she's answering your questions. So don't miss our conversation with 651 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: this New York Times bestselling author. Thanks to our partners 652 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: at Airbnb. 653 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 2: Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, 654 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 655 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: I'm Simone Boye. You can find me at Simone Voice 656 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok. 657 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 3: Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok. That's ro Ba. 658 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: Y see you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.