WEBVTT - From the Vault: The Leshii 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.360 Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. This is 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.559 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:13.560 to go into the vault for a classic episode of 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.560 the show. This one originally aired on October twenty two, 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.000 and it's our episode on the leshy, The Old Man 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:23.320 of the Forest. Yeah, this is a lot of fun, 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.680 a lot of discussion of Russian folk tales and becoming 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:30.400 lost in the woods. It's uh, it's a great episode 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:39.720 to listen to. Here at the end of October, it 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:42.279 was near sunset when the old man looked up from 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.280 his labors and saw the stranger approaching from the west, 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.479 And though his eyes were weaker than they once were, 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.720 he soon saw that the stranger carried himself like a soldier, 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:54.640 that he bore no weapon that could be seen, and 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.440 so the old man continued scraping his hides till the 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:02.080 stranger approached close enough to greet him. Hello, grandfather, Oh, 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.240 please don't let me disturb your labor. I just wanted 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.640 to ask, is this the way to the Greenwood Path? Hey? 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.280 It is, but what business have you in the woods? 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.200 Not the woods, Grandfather, the lands on the other side, 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:16.600 you see I'm returned from the war and I seek 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.800 my family's farm. It's been five long years, and I'm 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.399 eager to aid them with the harvest. There's no path 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:24.880 through the green forest, at least none blazed by the 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:28.640 likes of you and me game trails. Then, well, so happens. 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:31.440 I'm a gifted tracker and can make my own way, 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:34.320 your own way. Uh, if there are any landmarks, you 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:36.800 might a lurt me to, well, I'd be most gracious. 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:39.520 But the old man didn't answer right away. He looked 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:43.440 out to the woods and instead motioned back towards his hut, 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.200 where the old woman would have supper ready soon enough. 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:49.360 Tell you what stay with us tonight, and I'll tell 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:55.080 you of the forest. What the young soldier lacked in caution, 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:57.840 he made up for in politeness. When he had finished 0:01:57.840 --> 0:01:59.960 his bowl of rabbit stew, he thanked the old man 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:02.640 and in woman a half dozen times. He cleaned the 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.440 bowls and scrubbed the pot. He split more wood for 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.120 the fire, and even produced a bottle of spirits, which 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:10.840 he shared with the old man. So tell me of 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:14.040 the forest, grandfather, You'll not find your own way through 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:17.760 the green forest, not by moonlight and not by day. 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.640 What little of either filters down through the tree tops. 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.359 The animal paths won't help you either. That only winds 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:28.600 you down into greater depths. There is neither your way 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.519 nor my way in the green forest. There is only 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.480 the law of the woods. And there is a leshy. 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.040 I don't think I'll be troubled by some forest dwarf 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.560 tis no dwarf. The less she has always been in 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.400 the old forest. He was there before human tribes roamed in. 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.800 He was there when strange animals still range these parts. 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:52.040 And he is no man nor dwarf, but a shaggy 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:55.920 figure that casts no shadow, that stares straight through the 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.840 forest depths with eyes that burn like green fire. He 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.520 passes gigantic behind the great trees and sneaks meekly behind 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:08.120 the nearest blade of grass. Like that, he is on you. 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.799 And he who breaks the forest law is broken. Well, 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:13.920 then tell me the forest law so that I might 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:17.079 avoid him. The forest law is not like man's lot, 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:20.720 can't be told or written down. A very nature breaks 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.280 it as much as our acts. But you're a trapper, 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.600 how do you avoid the less She's wrath? I do 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.200 not trap in the woods, but at its border, and 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.040 for that the less she spares me, and asked, but 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:35.200 one more thing that I worn wanderers such as yourself. 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:38.400 The young soldier nodded and smiled, but the old man 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:41.680 could tell he was only being mannerly. He did not 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.440 believe his tale of the leshy, and would not be 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.600 swayed from his short cut through the woods. And so 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.880 the next morning he thanked the old man and woman 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:53.200 yet again and departed into the green forest, no doubt, 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:56.560 thinking he'd found the makings of a path, or discovered 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.840 some logic, and the dead leaves beneath his feet, the 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.760 old man went back to his traps and snares near 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.840 the forest edge. He flinched when he heard the first 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.520 startled scream from the forest depths, then the howl of 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:13.840 the leshy as it bore the young soldier limb from limb. 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.960 As he walked back home, his spirits sapped by the sounds, 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:22.680 he caught once more the sense of something vast and shaggy, 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:27.160 walking just behind the great tree trunks, yet tiptoeing impossibly 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.960 behind the smallest shrub or mushroom, not like a thing 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.839 that moved through the woods, but like something reflected in 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:45.359 its substance. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:54.640 of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.000 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.359 And hey it's still October. We are still going strong 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.120 with the monster stuff. And boy, I'm I'm excited about 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.120 today's episode. So, Rob, if it's okay with you, I 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.360 want to begin by reading reading a quote. You you 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.320 cool starting this way, Yes, let's do it, okay. So 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:17.200 this quote is recorded in a nineteen nine book called 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:21.040 Russian Folk Belief by a Penn State professor of Russian 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:25.120 and comparative literature named Linda j Ivantas. And this quote 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.800 is attributed to an old woman from the Kaluga Province 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:32.279 of Russia describing what she believed to have witnessed during 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.479 the height of a forest fire. So she says, I 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:43.400 looked and bears and with them wolves, foxes, hairs, squirrels, elk, goats, 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.000 in a word, every sort of forest life, and each 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.560 in his own group, not mixing with the others. Thronged 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:53.680 out of the forest and passed me and the horses, 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.160 not even looking at us, And behind the beasts with 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:01.039 his knout over his shoulder and horn and hands was 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.960 he himself, and he was the size of a bell tower. 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:10.200 He himself tall as a bell tower, dragging the horn 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.760 and the nowt and a now it means a whip 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.839 or a scourge. Who is he? Who she talking about? 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:21.560 She's talking about the Leshy, an awesome monster of Slavic mythology, 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:26.839 the demon of the woods, sort of a malevolent trickster. NT. Yeah, 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.159 I was, I was reading about the Leshy. I was 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:32.920 not not really familiar with it prior to our research here. 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:37.640 But according to Carol Rose in her excellent Spirits, Fairies, 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:41.680 lepre cons and goblins and Encyclopedia, uh, they're they're numerous 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:44.680 different versions of the spelling and and or pronunciation of 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.159 the name. You see it kind of like leshy, but 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:51.400 also lessovic or less shak or less nor. Uh So 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:55.160 there are several different variations on it. But just as 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:58.720 just as the name is kind of a morphous uh, 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:00.880 the you know, the actual substance of the creature is 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.120 also a fair bit of morphous, to which one might 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.599 expect with folklore traditions and any kind of entity that 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.800 it arises out of, out of out of old beliefs 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:14.800 and old legends, old mythologies, right, Yeah, so the Lusty 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.400 is not something that comes originally from one canonical source. 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.640 It it is a folk belief and thus you're going 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:23.080 to get lots of different versions of it, and I 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:25.600 think it's gonna be really fun to explore where a 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.000 lot of these different stories overlap and then what the 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:32.240 differences are. Yeah. So Rose points out that the Leshy 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:36.560 is essentially a Russian nature spirit and forrest guardian. He's 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:40.200 often described as a pale humanoid figure with green eyes, 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:44.480 green beard, and long, straggly hair. He wears a pair 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:49.360 of of of boots, often made from bark, which any 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.760 wears them on the wrong feet. It's often said that 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.120 he cast no shadow, and he's also a shape shifter. 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.640 And as we tried to reflect in our opening, a 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.040 bit of narration, a little or dramatic opening, uh, it 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:03.840 said that he can be as tall as a great 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.680 tree or as small as a blade of grass. Likewise, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.440 he can mimic any sound in the forest, which is 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:14.880 a tool he might use to lead humans astray sometimes. Yes, 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:16.960 and this is one of the main threats that the 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.080 less he represents. That there again, a number of stories, 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.320 But the most common ways that he represents a threat 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:27.239 to human existence are in making sounds or in laying 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.640 sort of traps and tricks that lead travelers off the 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.240 path and get them lost in the woods to wander 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.400 hopelessly until they die in the woods or die in 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.480 a swamp. Or The other thing is that he's often 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.840 said to kidnap babies at the edge of the forest, 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:47.880 or to kidnap children, especially unbaptized babies and children. Uh 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.880 And a lot of sources mentioned this, this idea of 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:55.160 him luring wanderers off the forest path by making noises. 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.120 One of the sources I was reading for this episode 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.040 is a book by Elizabeth Warner called Russian Myths from 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.440 the University of Texas Press in two thousand two, and 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:09.600 Warner says, the less she would quote hoot, roar, and howl, 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:13.640 and the voices of birds and beasts, emit wild bursts 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:17.840 of laughter, blood curdling shrieks, and clap his hands loudly. 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:20.240 Uh So, so, it seems like there are a couple 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:22.480 of different ways that you might catch the less she 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.760 making sounds in the forest, sometimes maybe mimicking the voice 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.440 of an animal or human in order to lure somebody 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.199 off the path, or sometimes just making a lot of noise, 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:33.559 maybe to mess with your head, kind of scare you 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:37.000 or make you laugh. Now picking up in the lessies appearance, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.080 there are several sources that summarize the folklore. Again this 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.640 is from Warner and Russian myths. Uh. The less She 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:47.840 may and often does look and dress like an ordinary 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:50.160 human being. Like there are some stories where the less 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.360 She leaves the forest and interacts with humans as if he, 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.679 you know, looked like any other human. But in fact, again, 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.080 he is a shape shifter, so he can mimic the 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.960 appearance of not just all the animals of the forest. 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.280 Those are common forms he takes, especially the form of 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.079 a wolf or a bear, but he can also mimic 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:11.320 the appearance of any particular person. So a child might 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.800 be lured into the forest by a vision of their 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.959 own grandfather offering them fruits and sweets, or a person 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:22.480 might be you know, antagonized or lured off the path 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.000 in the woods by the shape of their own father 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.880 or mother or husband or wife, or even their child. 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:32.640 But much like the succubus who appears as a seductive, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.240 beautiful woman, but with say a duck's foot. The leshy 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:39.360 in disguise will usually have a detail out of place, 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.800 and that detail will be noticeable to the observant hero. 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:45.559 You mentioned the idea that the less she might cast 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.360 no shadow, or have their shoes on the wrong feet 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.679 or backwards. Warner gives the examples that the less she 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:56.120 might be wearing a calf tan like a like a 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.000 Russian traveler might wear, but the calf tan would be 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:03.480 buttoned back words, or his eyes might be extremely pale, 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.480 or he might have no eyebrows. I like that one. 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:10.640 Or again, he might cast no shadow. And and then finally, 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:14.560 this one seems particularly relevant in his role in confusing 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:19.320 travelers in a forest. He might leave no footprints. I 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:22.640 love how common this detail is across so much different folklore, 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.800 that the monster or the trickster demon will have some 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:29.760 kind of detail wrong that allows you to spot it. Yeah, 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.200 And it's the kind of myth, that kind of legend 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.480 that that appeals well to our our our nature, you know, 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.920 because when when we're just encountering people for the first time, 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.560 situations for the first time, the suspicious mind is always 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.640 looking for for some sort of a tell, right, like 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.560 what's weird about this person, what's weird about this place? Yeah? 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.600 And and it also it makes the myth more fair, 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.560 I mean, unlike just the less She being a a 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.640 power that cannot possibly be overcome, and it just takes 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.120 whoever it wants and does whatever it wants. The fact 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.600 that there's some detail often wrong with it allows the 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:09.720 observant hero, the virtuous protagonist of the story to to 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.160 catch them, to be like, hey, wait a minute, there's 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.840 something wrong with you. It makes you It makes you 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:17.440 think that maybe if you are clever enough, if you're 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:21.360 observant enough, then you could best the leshy. Now, Warner 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:23.800 agrees with what we already talked about about the less 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:27.120 She being able to dramatically change size, and it's often 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.719 reported in these stories that he can become taller than 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.160 the tallest tree tops. Remember the story at the beginning 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.160 of the woman who says the less She was like 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.480 a bell tower. Or he can be small, small enough 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.880 to hide behind grass or behind a mushroom. Now, in 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:46.679 his true form, Warner says that the lessies appearance betrays 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.080 his affinity for the vegetation of the forest, so his 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.040 skin might very much resemble the bark of a tree. 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.520 It will be rough and gnarly, and sometimes he's said 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.200 to be completely covered in hair, but sometimes he's just 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.720 got hair on his head and a beard, and in 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.400 those cases his hair and beard might be as green 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:08.160 as the vines and the grass. But some imagery of 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.080 the leshy is more classically devilish in the Christian sense, 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.000 or at least in the syncratistic Christian sense that that 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:19.079 combines sort of Satan with the god pan Uh. Warner 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.840 says that many descriptions include shaggy hair almost like moss, 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.360 but also cloven hoofs and horns on his head and 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.160 a tail like the devil's tail. And then finally she 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:33.200 mentions that the horns are golden in the case of 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:37.959 one particular leshie known as the leshy Czar. But anyway, 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:42.640 I think this devilish appearances is interesting because it uh 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.880 it makes sense based on something that Warner talks about 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:48.800 in her book, which is called the Dual Faith, that 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.120 this idea that after Christianity took over the Kievan Ruth 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:56.840 stayed in the tenth century, Christianity and old pagan practices 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:01.960 kind of mesh together. They coexisted for hundreds of years. Yeah, 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.120 and We've discussed examples of this before with other other 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:10.080 legends and folklore and and even mythologies. Um where yeah, 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.920 the new, a new faith comes along and it doesn't 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.080 just wipe out the old. It adds new wrinkles to 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:21.400 the old or and or exist alongside the old, uh 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.880 in ways that that may might not make sense if 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.240 you were to say, write them out or discuss them. 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.680 You know. It's it's always fascinating how even as modern humans, 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.080 the various conflicting world views and ideas of the natural 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:38.200 and the supernatural that can simultaneously exist in our minds, 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.080 it can be hard to enforce the borders of one 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.280 supernatural picture of the world. Like it can be hard 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:46.480 to sort of like beat into people like no, no, no, 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.720 like this part these supernatural beliefs are acceptable. But these 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.880 other ones that your grandparents believed and their grandparents before them, 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.120 you can't believe those anymore. Yeah, Like, I remember, when 0:14:58.120 --> 0:14:59.680 I was younger, there was a time when I was 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.160 at least a bit afraid of the prospect of both 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:07.560 aliens and ghosts, which rationally, it seems like you know 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:09.640 now I'm looking back and like, well, surely I should 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:11.360 have just picked one or the other, like one would 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.200 seem more likely than the other, and that should be 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.680 the one to be afraid of. I can't be, you know, 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.760 I can't just be afraid of everything that's on Unsolved Mysteries. 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.280 I have to pick, you know, like obviously be afraid 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.320 of your criminals, but then choose aliens or ghosts like 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.200 I shouldn't have to, I shouldn't take both on. But no. 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.520 Unsolved Mysteries presents a perfect synchrotistic view of the world 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:35.400 where all paranormal phenomena exists simultaneously. Now Additionally, as Rose 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.960 points out, each forest is said to have its own leshy, 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.400 unless it's a very large forest, and then then you 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:41.960 can have more than one lessy. I guess it just 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.240 comes down to It's kind of like having park rangers, right, 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.840 depends just how big the park is, right. They gotta 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.640 like a range of territory. Right. Furthermore, the less she 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:54.600 may have a wife in some traditions, which is a lessovica, 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:59.080 and then there are sometimes lessy children or less shunky, 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.720 and there's all to a variety of leshy sometimes described 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.840 as a as a zoi abot schnick that takes on 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.280 the guys and sound of a baby gurgling in the treetops. 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.560 So in that in that case, a quality that is 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:19.240 sometimes ascribed to the leshy in general is sometimes pulled 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.960 out and made its own particular thing. Yeah, and I 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:24.240 think it's interesting the idea of giving a leshi a 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:28.280 family allows you to to sort of add in more 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.680 dynamics that would explain natural phenomenon potentially, Like, for example, 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:34.480 one of our sources was saying that if you saw 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.000 a whirlwind, I think mean, you know, a whirlwind or 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:41.200 even a tornado, that was the leshy dancing with his wife. 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.160 So adding the wife in, you know, they're twirling through 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:48.960 the forest. But this dovetails with another interesting belief, which 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.320 is that sometimes fallen trees found in the forest were 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.640 said to have been knocked over by fights between leshies. 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:58.640 But you know, you put those two things together kind 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.200 of dovetails into the center sting idea that I wonder 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.960 if people at some point maybe came across the path 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:08.120 that a tornado or whirlwind had cut through a forest, 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.199 and you know, it looks like something is just like 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.320 come through and mode this this shaved line out through 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.760 the middle of the woods. And what happened here? What 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.080 was less she's fighting or it was less she's dancing, Yeah, 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.679 because there are no tracks there, you know, there's no 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.240 there's no sign that animals did this, and yet something 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:31.040 large has has trampled the woods now like the forest itself, 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.920 you know, at least from a folkloric standpoint, the less 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.639 she is said to die with the advent of winter 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.240 and then emerge from his winter death in the spring. 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.440 And it's during this time and once the Lessies have 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:46.920 come back that has said that the that the leshies 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.680 of the forest rage over the their autumn deaths. They 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.159 realized that they had died previously. Now they're mad about it, 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.000 and this raging produces storms and floods in the process. 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:00.280 But then all that settles down again. So here we 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.000 see an idea of the leshy is a way to 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:06.439 explain not only specific storm damage, but also just the 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.840 general pattern of like spring storms. On top of that, 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:12.720 the the leshy is a bit of a bit of 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.840 a trickster again, sometimes calling out to human travelers with 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.400 the sounds of the forest to lead them astray, even 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.600 taking the form of a fellow traveler to give them 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:24.760 bad advice or guidance, disappearing and laughing once they managed 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.480 to get them lost in a bog or worse. Um 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:31.360 and uh, you'll have other individuals though that are wise 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.520 to the ways of the leshy, that they'll know how 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:35.760 to outsmart them or and we'll get into an example 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:37.600 of how I'll smart them in a bit, but also 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:41.080 making offerings to them such as salt and bread. Yeah, 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.440 Elizabeth Warner points out how there was some kind of division. 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:48.359 Like she starts by saying that, of course, you know, 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.480 for many Russian people living at the edge of the forest, 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:56.000 the forest was itself an image of of great bounty 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.440 but also great chaos and great danger. And that is 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.919 of course, like you know, becoming lost in the forest, 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.360 you can quite easily die. This is something I think 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.360 a lot of people don't really remember these days. Maybe 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.800 they go out and experience the forest in say nature 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.960 trails that have forged paths that you can follow, but like, 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:16.720 it's really easy to get lost and die in the woods. 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:18.399 And I want to talk more about the science of 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.200 that later on. But but then there are these professions 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:24.719 where people would have to go into the woods in 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:27.640 order to make a living, for example, and there would 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:31.240 be herdsman and hunters like you mentioned, and herdsman very 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.240 often in medieval Russia would not graze their cattle in 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:37.040 open pastures, but would graze them through the woods. They 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.879 would have to find, you know, like little patches and 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.800 openings throughout the trees, and so it would require them 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.000 to go into the domain of the leshy and and 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.760 risk risk all these dangers, and so Warner writes, quote, 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.639 protective measures could be taken against the leshy, making the 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.720 sign of the cross, uttering a prayer or spell, and 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:01.480 more interestingly, reversing one's clothing or retracing one steps backwards 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:05.320 out of the forest, reversal of the normal back to frontness, 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:09.199 upside downness left as opposed to right. We're all signs 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:13.520 of the supernatural and Russian tradition. Yes, I I absolutely 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.440 love this. Uh this example, the idea of wearing your 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:20.000 clothes backwards or walking backwards as a way to to 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:25.000 outsmart the leshy. Um and we see we see versions 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:28.639 of this pop up in other traditions as well. For instance, uh, 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.600 I read that you see this in Irish folklore, sometimes 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:36.880 concerning encounters or potential encounters with dangerous varieties of fairy 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.439 um uh. And the idea here, it seems and this 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:42.240 is going to vary. There's not like, you know, anybody 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.639 wrote wrote this down and came up with necessarily a 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:49.040 straightforward reason that this works. But one one interpretation is 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:51.960 that it's just about confusing the spirit, like the spirits like, oh, 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.560 I'm gonna I'm gonna get this woodsman now, and then 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.640 he realizes, oh that what's going on here? His clothes 0:20:58.680 --> 0:20:59.920 are on backwards. I don't know what to do. I 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:02.600 guess I'll just watch him for a bit. Or it 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:05.800 tricks the spirit or fairy or leshy in this case 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.879 into thinking you're leaving rather than arriving. And I love 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:12.240 the twisted logic of this, where it's like the the 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:14.160 lest she shows up, it's like, all right, it's time 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:17.640 to time to to to unleash some havoc. We'll look 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:21.040 at this guy coming into my far Wait. Oh the 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:23.359 way their clothes are or or or basic cane, it 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:25.399 looks like he's walking away. All right, He's good, he's leaving. 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.120 Carry on. You know, it's just fabulous. This is really 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:31.119 funny because it kind of connects to the idea of 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:34.280 wearing eye spots on your back. To deter predators in 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.199 the forest. Yeah, yeah, which is which is something that 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:39.920 has been been done. We've discussed this in the show 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:43.080 before too, with varying degrees of success with both humans 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.399 and also putting eye spots on the back of cattle 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:49.480 to deter lion attacks and uh in parts of Africa. Now, 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:51.800 as Rose points out that the less, she can be 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.560 very generally classified as a guardian spirit, which we see 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.399 in various and far flung cultures. Many versions of this 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:03.200 revolve around the project of individuals, UH, and the should 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:05.280 be pretty familiar with a lot to a lot of people. 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:08.159 You have like the guardian angels of Latin, Greek and Russian, 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:12.120 Orthodox and Anglican churches. These are assigned from the hour 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:17.840 of an individual's birth. Uh. Interestingly, one that Rose describes 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.639 in her book is the grind, a gin of in 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:24.119 the folklore of Morocco. That's described as kind of inhabiting 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:26.800 a parallel world. So it's not that they're assigned to 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:30.119 an individual, but they're they're born at the same moment 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:32.840