1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. This is 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: to go into the vault for a classic episode of 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: the show. This one originally aired on October twenty two, 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: and it's our episode on the leshy, The Old Man 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: of the Forest. Yeah, this is a lot of fun, 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: a lot of discussion of Russian folk tales and becoming 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: lost in the woods. It's uh, it's a great episode 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: to listen to. Here at the end of October, it 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: was near sunset when the old man looked up from 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: his labors and saw the stranger approaching from the west, 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: And though his eyes were weaker than they once were, 13 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: he soon saw that the stranger carried himself like a soldier, 14 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: that he bore no weapon that could be seen, and 15 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: so the old man continued scraping his hides till the 16 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: stranger approached close enough to greet him. Hello, grandfather, Oh, 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: please don't let me disturb your labor. I just wanted 18 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: to ask, is this the way to the Greenwood Path? Hey? 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: It is, but what business have you in the woods? 20 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: Not the woods, Grandfather, the lands on the other side, 21 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: you see I'm returned from the war and I seek 22 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: my family's farm. It's been five long years, and I'm 23 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: eager to aid them with the harvest. There's no path 24 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: through the green forest, at least none blazed by the 25 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: likes of you and me game trails. Then, well, so happens. 26 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: I'm a gifted tracker and can make my own way, 27 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: your own way. Uh, if there are any landmarks, you 28 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: might a lurt me to, well, I'd be most gracious. 29 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: But the old man didn't answer right away. He looked 30 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: out to the woods and instead motioned back towards his hut, 31 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: where the old woman would have supper ready soon enough. 32 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: Tell you what stay with us tonight, and I'll tell 33 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: you of the forest. What the young soldier lacked in caution, 34 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: he made up for in politeness. When he had finished 35 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: his bowl of rabbit stew, he thanked the old man 36 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: and in woman a half dozen times. He cleaned the 37 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: bowls and scrubbed the pot. He split more wood for 38 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: the fire, and even produced a bottle of spirits, which 39 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: he shared with the old man. So tell me of 40 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: the forest, grandfather, You'll not find your own way through 41 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: the green forest, not by moonlight and not by day. 42 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: What little of either filters down through the tree tops. 43 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: The animal paths won't help you either. That only winds 44 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: you down into greater depths. There is neither your way 45 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 1: nor my way in the green forest. There is only 46 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: the law of the woods. And there is a leshy. 47 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: I don't think I'll be troubled by some forest dwarf 48 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: tis no dwarf. The less she has always been in 49 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: the old forest. He was there before human tribes roamed in. 50 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: He was there when strange animals still range these parts. 51 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: And he is no man nor dwarf, but a shaggy 52 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: figure that casts no shadow, that stares straight through the 53 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: forest depths with eyes that burn like green fire. He 54 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: passes gigantic behind the great trees and sneaks meekly behind 55 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: the nearest blade of grass. Like that, he is on you. 56 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: And he who breaks the forest law is broken. Well, 57 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: then tell me the forest law so that I might 58 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: avoid him. The forest law is not like man's lot, 59 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: can't be told or written down. A very nature breaks 60 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: it as much as our acts. But you're a trapper, 61 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: how do you avoid the less She's wrath? I do 62 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: not trap in the woods, but at its border, and 63 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: for that the less she spares me, and asked, but 64 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: one more thing that I worn wanderers such as yourself. 65 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: The young soldier nodded and smiled, but the old man 66 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: could tell he was only being mannerly. He did not 67 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: believe his tale of the leshy, and would not be 68 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: swayed from his short cut through the woods. And so 69 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: the next morning he thanked the old man and woman 70 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: yet again and departed into the green forest, no doubt, 71 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: thinking he'd found the makings of a path, or discovered 72 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: some logic, and the dead leaves beneath his feet, the 73 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: old man went back to his traps and snares near 74 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: the forest edge. He flinched when he heard the first 75 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: startled scream from the forest depths, then the howl of 76 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: the leshy as it bore the young soldier limb from limb. 77 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: As he walked back home, his spirits sapped by the sounds, 78 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: he caught once more the sense of something vast and shaggy, 79 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: walking just behind the great tree trunks, yet tiptoeing impossibly 80 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: behind the smallest shrub or mushroom, not like a thing 81 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: that moved through the woods, but like something reflected in 82 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: its substance. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production 83 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow 84 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 85 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: And hey it's still October. We are still going strong 86 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: with the monster stuff. And boy, I'm I'm excited about 87 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: today's episode. So, Rob, if it's okay with you, I 88 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: want to begin by reading reading a quote. You you 89 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: cool starting this way, Yes, let's do it, okay. So 90 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: this quote is recorded in a nineteen nine book called 91 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: Russian Folk Belief by a Penn State professor of Russian 92 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: and comparative literature named Linda j Ivantas. And this quote 93 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: is attributed to an old woman from the Kaluga Province 94 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: of Russia describing what she believed to have witnessed during 95 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: the height of a forest fire. So she says, I 96 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: looked and bears and with them wolves, foxes, hairs, squirrels, elk, goats, 97 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: in a word, every sort of forest life, and each 98 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: in his own group, not mixing with the others. Thronged 99 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: out of the forest and passed me and the horses, 100 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: not even looking at us, And behind the beasts with 101 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: his knout over his shoulder and horn and hands was 102 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: he himself, and he was the size of a bell tower. 103 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: He himself tall as a bell tower, dragging the horn 104 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: and the nowt and a now it means a whip 105 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: or a scourge. Who is he? Who she talking about? 106 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: She's talking about the Leshy, an awesome monster of Slavic mythology, 107 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: the demon of the woods, sort of a malevolent trickster. NT. Yeah, 108 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: I was, I was reading about the Leshy. I was 109 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: not not really familiar with it prior to our research here. 110 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: But according to Carol Rose in her excellent Spirits, Fairies, 111 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: lepre cons and goblins and Encyclopedia, uh, they're they're numerous 112 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: different versions of the spelling and and or pronunciation of 113 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: the name. You see it kind of like leshy, but 114 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: also lessovic or less shak or less nor. Uh So 115 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: there are several different variations on it. But just as 116 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: just as the name is kind of a morphous uh, 117 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: the you know, the actual substance of the creature is 118 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: also a fair bit of morphous, to which one might 119 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: expect with folklore traditions and any kind of entity that 120 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: it arises out of, out of out of old beliefs 121 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: and old legends, old mythologies, right, Yeah, so the Lusty 122 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: is not something that comes originally from one canonical source. 123 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: It it is a folk belief and thus you're going 124 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: to get lots of different versions of it, and I 125 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: think it's gonna be really fun to explore where a 126 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: lot of these different stories overlap and then what the 127 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: differences are. Yeah. So Rose points out that the Leshy 128 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: is essentially a Russian nature spirit and forrest guardian. He's 129 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: often described as a pale humanoid figure with green eyes, 130 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: green beard, and long, straggly hair. He wears a pair 131 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: of of of boots, often made from bark, which any 132 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: wears them on the wrong feet. It's often said that 133 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: he cast no shadow, and he's also a shape shifter. 134 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: And as we tried to reflect in our opening, a 135 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: bit of narration, a little or dramatic opening, uh, it 136 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: said that he can be as tall as a great 137 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: tree or as small as a blade of grass. Likewise, 138 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: he can mimic any sound in the forest, which is 139 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: a tool he might use to lead humans astray sometimes. Yes, 140 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: and this is one of the main threats that the 141 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: less he represents. That there again, a number of stories, 142 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: But the most common ways that he represents a threat 143 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,239 Speaker 1: to human existence are in making sounds or in laying 144 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: sort of traps and tricks that lead travelers off the 145 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: path and get them lost in the woods to wander 146 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: hopelessly until they die in the woods or die in 147 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: a swamp. Or The other thing is that he's often 148 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: said to kidnap babies at the edge of the forest, 149 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: or to kidnap children, especially unbaptized babies and children. Uh 150 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: And a lot of sources mentioned this, this idea of 151 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: him luring wanderers off the forest path by making noises. 152 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: One of the sources I was reading for this episode 153 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: is a book by Elizabeth Warner called Russian Myths from 154 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: the University of Texas Press in two thousand two, and 155 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: Warner says, the less she would quote hoot, roar, and howl, 156 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: and the voices of birds and beasts, emit wild bursts 157 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: of laughter, blood curdling shrieks, and clap his hands loudly. 158 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: Uh So, so, it seems like there are a couple 159 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: of different ways that you might catch the less she 160 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: making sounds in the forest, sometimes maybe mimicking the voice 161 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: of an animal or human in order to lure somebody 162 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: off the path, or sometimes just making a lot of noise, 163 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: maybe to mess with your head, kind of scare you 164 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: or make you laugh. Now picking up in the lessies appearance, 165 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: there are several sources that summarize the folklore. Again this 166 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: is from Warner and Russian myths. Uh. The less She 167 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: may and often does look and dress like an ordinary 168 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: human being. Like there are some stories where the less 169 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: She leaves the forest and interacts with humans as if he, 170 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: you know, looked like any other human. But in fact, again, 171 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: he is a shape shifter, so he can mimic the 172 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: appearance of not just all the animals of the forest. 173 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: Those are common forms he takes, especially the form of 174 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 1: a wolf or a bear, but he can also mimic 175 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: the appearance of any particular person. So a child might 176 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: be lured into the forest by a vision of their 177 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 1: own grandfather offering them fruits and sweets, or a person 178 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: might be you know, antagonized or lured off the path 179 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: in the woods by the shape of their own father 180 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: or mother or husband or wife, or even their child. 181 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: But much like the succubus who appears as a seductive, 182 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: beautiful woman, but with say a duck's foot. The leshy 183 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: in disguise will usually have a detail out of place, 184 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: and that detail will be noticeable to the observant hero. 185 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 1: You mentioned the idea that the less she might cast 186 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: no shadow, or have their shoes on the wrong feet 187 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: or backwards. Warner gives the examples that the less she 188 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: might be wearing a calf tan like a like a 189 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: Russian traveler might wear, but the calf tan would be 190 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: buttoned back words, or his eyes might be extremely pale, 191 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: or he might have no eyebrows. I like that one. 192 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: Or again, he might cast no shadow. And and then finally, 193 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: this one seems particularly relevant in his role in confusing 194 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: travelers in a forest. He might leave no footprints. I 195 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: love how common this detail is across so much different folklore, 196 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: that the monster or the trickster demon will have some 197 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: kind of detail wrong that allows you to spot it. Yeah, 198 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: And it's the kind of myth, that kind of legend 199 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: that that appeals well to our our our nature, you know, 200 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: because when when we're just encountering people for the first time, 201 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: situations for the first time, the suspicious mind is always 202 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: looking for for some sort of a tell, right, like 203 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: what's weird about this person, what's weird about this place? Yeah? 204 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: And and it also it makes the myth more fair, 205 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: I mean, unlike just the less She being a a 206 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: power that cannot possibly be overcome, and it just takes 207 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: whoever it wants and does whatever it wants. The fact 208 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: that there's some detail often wrong with it allows the 209 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: observant hero, the virtuous protagonist of the story to to 210 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: catch them, to be like, hey, wait a minute, there's 211 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: something wrong with you. It makes you It makes you 212 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: think that maybe if you are clever enough, if you're 213 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: observant enough, then you could best the leshy. Now, Warner 214 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: agrees with what we already talked about about the less 215 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: She being able to dramatically change size, and it's often 216 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,719 Speaker 1: reported in these stories that he can become taller than 217 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: the tallest tree tops. Remember the story at the beginning 218 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: of the woman who says the less She was like 219 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: a bell tower. Or he can be small, small enough 220 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: to hide behind grass or behind a mushroom. Now, in 221 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: his true form, Warner says that the lessies appearance betrays 222 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: his affinity for the vegetation of the forest, so his 223 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: skin might very much resemble the bark of a tree. 224 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: It will be rough and gnarly, and sometimes he's said 225 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: to be completely covered in hair, but sometimes he's just 226 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: got hair on his head and a beard, and in 227 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: those cases his hair and beard might be as green 228 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: as the vines and the grass. But some imagery of 229 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: the leshy is more classically devilish in the Christian sense, 230 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: or at least in the syncratistic Christian sense that that 231 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: combines sort of Satan with the god pan Uh. Warner 232 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: says that many descriptions include shaggy hair almost like moss, 233 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: but also cloven hoofs and horns on his head and 234 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: a tail like the devil's tail. And then finally she 235 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: mentions that the horns are golden in the case of 236 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 1: one particular leshie known as the leshy Czar. But anyway, 237 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: I think this devilish appearances is interesting because it uh 238 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: it makes sense based on something that Warner talks about 239 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: in her book, which is called the Dual Faith, that 240 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: this idea that after Christianity took over the Kievan Ruth 241 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: stayed in the tenth century, Christianity and old pagan practices 242 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: kind of mesh together. They coexisted for hundreds of years. Yeah, 243 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: and We've discussed examples of this before with other other 244 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: legends and folklore and and even mythologies. Um where yeah, 245 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: the new, a new faith comes along and it doesn't 246 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: just wipe out the old. It adds new wrinkles to 247 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: the old or and or exist alongside the old, uh 248 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: in ways that that may might not make sense if 249 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: you were to say, write them out or discuss them. 250 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: You know. It's it's always fascinating how even as modern humans, 251 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: the various conflicting world views and ideas of the natural 252 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: and the supernatural that can simultaneously exist in our minds, 253 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: it can be hard to enforce the borders of one 254 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: supernatural picture of the world. Like it can be hard 255 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: to sort of like beat into people like no, no, no, 256 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: like this part these supernatural beliefs are acceptable. But these 257 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: other ones that your grandparents believed and their grandparents before them, 258 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: you can't believe those anymore. Yeah, Like, I remember, when 259 00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: I was younger, there was a time when I was 260 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: at least a bit afraid of the prospect of both 261 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: aliens and ghosts, which rationally, it seems like you know 262 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: now I'm looking back and like, well, surely I should 263 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: have just picked one or the other, like one would 264 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: seem more likely than the other, and that should be 265 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: the one to be afraid of. I can't be, you know, 266 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: I can't just be afraid of everything that's on Unsolved Mysteries. 267 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: I have to pick, you know, like obviously be afraid 268 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: of your criminals, but then choose aliens or ghosts like 269 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: I shouldn't have to, I shouldn't take both on. But no. 270 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: Unsolved Mysteries presents a perfect synchrotistic view of the world 271 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: where all paranormal phenomena exists simultaneously. Now Additionally, as Rose 272 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: points out, each forest is said to have its own leshy, 273 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: unless it's a very large forest, and then then you 274 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: can have more than one lessy. I guess it just 275 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: comes down to It's kind of like having park rangers, right, 276 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: depends just how big the park is, right. They gotta 277 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: like a range of territory. Right. Furthermore, the less she 278 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: may have a wife in some traditions, which is a lessovica, 279 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: and then there are sometimes lessy children or less shunky, 280 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: and there's all to a variety of leshy sometimes described 281 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: as a as a zoi abot schnick that takes on 282 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: the guys and sound of a baby gurgling in the treetops. 283 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: So in that in that case, a quality that is 284 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: sometimes ascribed to the leshy in general is sometimes pulled 285 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: out and made its own particular thing. Yeah, and I 286 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: think it's interesting the idea of giving a leshi a 287 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: family allows you to to sort of add in more 288 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: dynamics that would explain natural phenomenon potentially, Like, for example, 289 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: one of our sources was saying that if you saw 290 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: a whirlwind, I think mean, you know, a whirlwind or 291 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: even a tornado, that was the leshy dancing with his wife. 292 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: So adding the wife in, you know, they're twirling through 293 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: the forest. But this dovetails with another interesting belief, which 294 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: is that sometimes fallen trees found in the forest were 295 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: said to have been knocked over by fights between leshies. 296 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: But you know, you put those two things together kind 297 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: of dovetails into the center sting idea that I wonder 298 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: if people at some point maybe came across the path 299 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 1: that a tornado or whirlwind had cut through a forest, 300 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: and you know, it looks like something is just like 301 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: come through and mode this this shaved line out through 302 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: the middle of the woods. And what happened here? What 303 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: was less she's fighting or it was less she's dancing, Yeah, 304 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: because there are no tracks there, you know, there's no 305 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: there's no sign that animals did this, and yet something 306 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: large has has trampled the woods now like the forest itself, 307 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: you know, at least from a folkloric standpoint, the less 308 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: she is said to die with the advent of winter 309 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: and then emerge from his winter death in the spring. 310 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: And it's during this time and once the Lessies have 311 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: come back that has said that the that the leshies 312 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: of the forest rage over the their autumn deaths. They 313 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: realized that they had died previously. Now they're mad about it, 314 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: and this raging produces storms and floods in the process. 315 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: But then all that settles down again. So here we 316 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: see an idea of the leshy is a way to 317 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: explain not only specific storm damage, but also just the 318 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: general pattern of like spring storms. On top of that, 319 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: the the leshy is a bit of a bit of 320 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: a trickster again, sometimes calling out to human travelers with 321 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: the sounds of the forest to lead them astray, even 322 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: taking the form of a fellow traveler to give them 323 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: bad advice or guidance, disappearing and laughing once they managed 324 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: to get them lost in a bog or worse. Um 325 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 1: and uh, you'll have other individuals though that are wise 326 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: to the ways of the leshy, that they'll know how 327 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: to outsmart them or and we'll get into an example 328 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: of how I'll smart them in a bit, but also 329 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: making offerings to them such as salt and bread. Yeah, 330 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warner points out how there was some kind of division. 331 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: Like she starts by saying that, of course, you know, 332 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: for many Russian people living at the edge of the forest, 333 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: the forest was itself an image of of great bounty 334 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: but also great chaos and great danger. And that is 335 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: of course, like you know, becoming lost in the forest, 336 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: you can quite easily die. This is something I think 337 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't really remember these days. Maybe 338 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: they go out and experience the forest in say nature 339 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: trails that have forged paths that you can follow, but like, 340 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: it's really easy to get lost and die in the woods. 341 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: And I want to talk more about the science of 342 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: that later on. But but then there are these professions 343 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 1: where people would have to go into the woods in 344 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: order to make a living, for example, and there would 345 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: be herdsman and hunters like you mentioned, and herdsman very 346 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: often in medieval Russia would not graze their cattle in 347 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: open pastures, but would graze them through the woods. They 348 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: would have to find, you know, like little patches and 349 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: openings throughout the trees, and so it would require them 350 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: to go into the domain of the leshy and and 351 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: risk risk all these dangers, and so Warner writes, quote, 352 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: protective measures could be taken against the leshy, making the 353 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: sign of the cross, uttering a prayer or spell, and 354 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: more interestingly, reversing one's clothing or retracing one steps backwards 355 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: out of the forest, reversal of the normal back to frontness, 356 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: upside downness left as opposed to right. We're all signs 357 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: of the supernatural and Russian tradition. Yes, I I absolutely 358 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: love this. Uh this example, the idea of wearing your 359 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: clothes backwards or walking backwards as a way to to 360 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: outsmart the leshy. Um and we see we see versions 361 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: of this pop up in other traditions as well. For instance, uh, 362 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: I read that you see this in Irish folklore, sometimes 363 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 1: concerning encounters or potential encounters with dangerous varieties of fairy 364 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: um uh. And the idea here, it seems and this 365 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: is going to vary. There's not like, you know, anybody 366 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: wrote wrote this down and came up with necessarily a 367 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: straightforward reason that this works. But one one interpretation is 368 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: that it's just about confusing the spirit, like the spirits like, oh, 369 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna get this woodsman now, and then 370 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: he realizes, oh that what's going on here? His clothes 371 00:20:58,680 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: are on backwards. I don't know what to do. I 372 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: guess I'll just watch him for a bit. Or it 373 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: tricks the spirit or fairy or leshy in this case 374 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: into thinking you're leaving rather than arriving. And I love 375 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: the twisted logic of this, where it's like the the 376 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: lest she shows up, it's like, all right, it's time 377 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: to time to to to unleash some havoc. We'll look 378 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: at this guy coming into my far Wait. Oh the 379 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: way their clothes are or or or basic cane, it 380 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: looks like he's walking away. All right, He's good, he's leaving. 381 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: Carry on. You know, it's just fabulous. This is really 382 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: funny because it kind of connects to the idea of 383 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: wearing eye spots on your back. To deter predators in 384 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 1: the forest. Yeah, yeah, which is which is something that 385 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: has been been done. We've discussed this in the show 386 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: before too, with varying degrees of success with both humans 387 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: and also putting eye spots on the back of cattle 388 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: to deter lion attacks and uh in parts of Africa. Now, 389 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: as Rose points out that the less, she can be 390 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: very generally classified as a guardian spirit, which we see 391 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: in various and far flung cultures. Many versions of this 392 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: revolve around the project of individuals, UH, and the should 393 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: be pretty familiar with a lot to a lot of people. 394 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: You have like the guardian angels of Latin, Greek and Russian, 395 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: Orthodox and Anglican churches. These are assigned from the hour 396 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: of an individual's birth. Uh. Interestingly, one that Rose describes 397 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: in her book is the grind, a gin of in 398 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: the folklore of Morocco. That's described as kind of inhabiting 399 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: a parallel world. So it's not that they're assigned to 400 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: an individual, but they're they're born at the same moment 401 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: in this other world, and so there's this bond between 402 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: the two. Likewise, you also have just Damon's and lend Lars, 403 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: you know, getting into ancient Greek and Roman tradition, and 404 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: one also sees this concept in the traditions of say 405 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: Uh in Native American tribes, native Australian cultures as well. 406 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: There there are a lot of these to list, and 407 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: she has a lot a lot of them in the book, 408 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: ranging from the ab Gal to the Zoa. But then 409 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,239 Speaker 1: as an extension of this, there's the idea of a 410 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: protector spirit that looks after particular sular places such as 411 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: standing stones or mounds, or certain natural places and or animals. 412 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: And so clearly this is going to be the kind 413 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: of guardian or protector that the lestia is not of 414 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: a person, but of a place, which is the woods, right, Yeah, 415 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: the protector of the forest, very very much in keeping 416 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: with such woodland or vegetation spirits as the Gandharva's of India, 417 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: which are described as being like shaggy half animal beings, 418 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: and some tellings, or the green Man of ancient European traditions, 419 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: a quote pagan image of a grotesque severed head with 420 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: emergent foliage from the mouth, beard, and hairline. We find 421 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 1: him in Christian churches from the sixth century onward. He's 422 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: a He's a wild man of the woods, a guardian 423 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: spirit of the forest, and like the Leshy, is prone 424 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: uh you know, to two tricks and meanness in the 425 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: woods and you know, leading people astray, etcetera. He is 426 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: also the genesis of both the Green Night of Authoritian 427 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: and of Robin Hood. Yeah. I think one traditional interpretation 428 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: of the story of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight 429 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: is of a conflict between the Christian chival ric virtues 430 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: represented by the Arthurian Chord and by Sir Gawain, and 431 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: then on the other hand the sort of pagan embodiment 432 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: of nature and the wilderness that is the Green Knight 433 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: a k a. The Green Man. Now, of course, we 434 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: have various modern versions of this tale as well, the 435 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: most the most obvious, at least to me, being the 436 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: character swamp Thing Uh, which is very much a guardian 437 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: spirit in the tradition of the Green Man and the Leshy, 438 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: though more of a noble twist as a pure protector 439 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: as opposed to a trickster. And this is especially the 440 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: case in the Alan Moore run of the character Uh 441 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: in the comic books, but you also see it in 442 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: most cinematic and TV incarnations like that. I kept thinking 443 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: back this time and time again reading about the leshy. Uh. 444 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: The ninety nineties TV show version of Swamp Thing had this, uh, 445 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: this ket phrase that that the swamp Thing would always 446 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: say at the end of the intro to the TV episode, 447 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: and it was do not bring your evil here. What 448 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 1: was the evil? It was like a like a polluting 449 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: factory or something. Oh yeah, polluting factory. Just general mad 450 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: science from Dr Anton Arcane, you know that sort of thing. Um. 451 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: But but yeah, the swamp Thing is very much in 452 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: line with this tradition. I think one of the interesting 453 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: things if you start thinking about modern standards versus um 454 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: versus these more archaic versions of the myth. And this 455 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: is something I tried to just sort of get at 456 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: in that dramatic opening, the idea of to what extent 457 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: humans can understand the law of the forest. And I 458 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: think these these more recent versions, like Swamp Thing, they 459 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: tend to imply they kind of take on I think 460 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: this environmental message of like, yes, we can understand the 461 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: law of the forest at least to some extent, and 462 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: we can do good for the forest. And I and 463 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: I and I believe I agree with that I think 464 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,719 Speaker 1: that is part of our responsibility to the forest as 465 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: as protectors. We are kind of we have to take 466 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: on the mantle of the swamp thing and the leshy 467 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: and the green man. But the r I think the 468 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: more archaic version of this is again, like you said, 469 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: the forest is a place of chaos. If it has 470 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: a law, it is a law that we cannot really understand, 471 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: and it's a law that is not written and maybe 472 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: you know, it can't even be comprehended by us, and 473 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: therefore there's even more danger in running a foul off 474 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: it because you you can't really comprehend all the details 475 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 1: of that law. Yeah. I think it's kind of like 476 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,959 Speaker 1: the law of the hidden folk. It's the law of 477 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: the other world. And these uh, these laws I think 478 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: sometimes in a lot of folk traditions can be understood 479 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: by but only by certain special kinds of people, people 480 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: who have a often people who are in some way 481 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: considered otherwise not normal. Yeah. Like another modern take that 482 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: gets into this is um Miyazaki's My Neighbor Totoro, which 483 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: of course is inspired by Japanese and Shinto traditions. But 484 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: the totoro that we encounter, they're very much forest guardian spirits, 485 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: and in Miyazaki's version of this, the only ones who 486 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: can really who can certainly see them and to a 487 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: certain extent understand them, are children. Like children have that 488 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: privileged insight into the rules and laws and existence of 489 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: this other world. It's almost like we're born with an 490 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: understanding of the law of the forest, but the process 491 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: of socialization and maturing beats it out of us. Yes, 492 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: uh yeah, So this is one of the reasons at 493 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: the beginning I said that the less she is kind 494 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: of like a malevolent trickster int It's like if the 495 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: nt were a demon, because it makes me think of 496 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: the scenes in Lord of the Rings where the Orcs 497 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: are punished for hacking down the trees of Fangorn Forest. 498 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 1: You know, the the trees get revenge and and the 499 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: nts get very angry to see their forests destroyed. This 500 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: is something that that does come through in some of 501 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: the folk tales. For example, warn Or talks about how 502 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: there were certain things you could do in the forest 503 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: or near the forest to really especially bring on the 504 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: leshies wrath, and these things might involve whistling, swearing, making 505 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: a noise, willful damage of flowers or trees or hunting 506 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: on certain church festivals, which that last one seems kind 507 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: of incongruous with the other, isn't. Maybe it's tacked on 508 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: a bit by the by the by the priests. I 509 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: agree with all of those go ahead and going on 510 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: a lot of nature hike hikes these days. I feel like, uh, 511 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: I feel like we need a leshy enforcing all of 512 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: those rules plus social distancing norms. Yeah, but that's just me. 513 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: I wonder if I ever needed to get another job, 514 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: could I get a job as a kind of leshy, 515 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: like in a state park or something. I just wander 516 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: around the forest. If I find somebody carving their name 517 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: into a tree or some you know, littering or whatever, 518 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: I make them wander off the path into a bog, 519 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: you know. I had My family actually had a very 520 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: recent experience on a high which kind of felt akin 521 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: to running a foul of the forest. We never got 522 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: off of a paved path because it had just been 523 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: a very rainy weekend and uh, and so we knew that, 524 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: you know, we needed to get like a paved path 525 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: to walk on. But we still on this one particular 526 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: road we encountered first a stretch of the road where 527 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: mud had washed over everything, so suddenly we were tramping 528 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: through mud. And then immediately we were set up on 529 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: by by by a whole cloud of mosquitoes, despite being 530 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: kind of late in the year, And I kid you not, 531 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: at the very same moment, two deer showed up and 532 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: a snake crossed the road in front of us, like 533 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: very close to us. So like suddenly it just felt 534 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: like like the woods were opening up and speaking to 535 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: us and saying that we should not proceed any further. 536 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: And in fact we turned back that he's about to 537 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: come out in bell tower form with the now it 538 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: over his shoulder. Yeah, leave this place, Do not bring 539 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: your evil here. All right, Well, I think we need 540 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: to take a break, but when we come back, let's 541 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:04,719 Speaker 1: talk about Grandfather Mushroom. Alright, we're back. So we know 542 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: as usual that the listeners to our episodes, you know, 543 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: are far flung, and some of you are going to 544 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: have a great deal of familiarity with these various uh 545 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: Russian folk tales that were discussing here. For for others 546 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: of you, though, you might only be familiar with them 547 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: through some of the more popular, you know, mainstream Western treatments. Like. 548 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: One thing that comes to mind is once again Jim 549 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: Hinson's Storyteller series. The first season of that relied heavily 550 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: on Russian folk tales. I actually haven't seen that first season. 551 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: I've only watched some of the Greek episodes, so maybe 552 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: I should go back check that out. It's like it's 553 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: like Slavic folklore. Yeah, yeah, there, um, you know, the 554 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: czar shows up in one of them. So there's several 555 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: really good, good tales in there like that. That whole 556 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: season is worth watching. But there are some really good ones, 557 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: like the Soldier and Death is a great one. That 558 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: that one in particular is wonderful. But another place that 559 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: a lot of you might be familiar with Russian folklore 560 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: is from a particular nineteen sixty five film titled Moral's 561 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: Goal or Jack Frost. And there's a very good chance 562 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: you're familiar with this film because Mystery Science Theater three 563 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: thousand famously featured it in one of their episodes. So 564 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: this is how It's certainly how I discovered it. But 565 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: I've I've had conversations with people like I was. This 566 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: was years and years ago. I was talking to someone 567 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: from the Czech Republic, and they pointed out, oh yeah, 568 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: they would show that every year for Christmas. That was 569 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: our Christmas film, Like that is that is a part 570 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: of our holiday culture, and uh and and and and 571 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: at this point I would say Jack Frost is also 572 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: part of my holiday culture. I rewatch it every year. 573 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: But you know, it's it's it's a little bit different 574 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: coming at it from this lampooning direction, but it is 575 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: a very beautiful film. And if you've only seen, like, 576 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: you know this, this really degraded quality version of it, 577 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: um as far as the video quality goes on Mr 578 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: Science three Mystery Science Theater three thousand, I I challenge 579 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: everyone out there to check out a pristine cut of this. 580 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: Either I think there's a version as of this recording 581 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: available on Amazon Prime, or you can also sometimes find uh, 582 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,239 Speaker 1: you know, versions of it on YouTube that have just 583 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: the full glorious quality of the film. It is a 584 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: beautiful movie and even without the riffing, extremely watchable and 585 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: extremely enjoyable. This is why I've never thought about the 586 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: idea that this was a commonly viewed Christmas film for 587 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: lots of people. So like here in America, we've got bumbles, 588 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: balance and then maybe throughout Eastern Europe they've got we 589 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: will rob them. We won't rob them, we will beat them. 590 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: We will be beaten. Yes, yeah, I mean really, it's 591 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: it's not fair because we have like Charlie Brown Christmas, 592 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: which is awful, but but they have Jack Frost, which, 593 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: oh man, we're we're going to get hate mail. Now. 594 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: It's it's fine, I risk it's it's it's it's perfectly okay. 595 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: It's just not my thing. I mean, no, this is 596 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,479 Speaker 1: a wonderful movie. It's got it's it's so imaginative. I 597 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: love when Ivan gets the bear head. I love Grandfather Mushroom, 598 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: I love the bandits, I love the the creepy girl. 599 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: It's it's fantastic. Yeah, it's it has so many It 600 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: actually has so many wonderful elements of Russian folk tales. 601 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: They're just straight out of Russian folk tales that really 602 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: you could you could watch that film and you already 603 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: are in a great place to begin reading more Russian 604 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: tales and exploring them from yourself, because it has you know, 605 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: you have the the you have. Ivan Tsarovich is the 606 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, the blonde guy who gets his head turned 607 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: into a bear in the film. He is a staple 608 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: of Russian folk tales. You have Boba Yaga, the the 609 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: evil woodland witch. Again, just a staple that you see 610 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: time and time again. Now you might be wondering, Okay, well, 611 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: where's where's the leshi in Jack Frost and I don't. 612 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: We don't have a direct Leshie and we'll get into 613 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: some of the reasons for this, but we do have 614 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: an interesting character that pops up that I instantly thought 615 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: about in reading all of that's this and that is 616 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: uh the little grandfather Mushroom father mushroom character, the little 617 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: diminutive old man with a mushroom cap that shows up 618 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: and uh has a little bit of mischief in him 619 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: and teaches Ivan a lesson. Yeah, he is portrayed as 620 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: sort of a wise figure, a figure of the force, 621 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: but also like the less she a trickster. You know, 622 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: he's playing, he's like doing, he's disappearing, playing hide and seek, 623 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: sort of taunting Ivan. Um. I don't know if we 624 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: said his his Russian name. I guess In Russian he's 625 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: known as Starry Chalk Borova Chalk. Yes, that's what I've 626 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: read as well. You know, father grandfather Mushroom. Uh, and 627 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: and again. He has a very memorable um appearance in 628 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: that film. Now, one of the lingering questions that I'll 629 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: get back to again is I was never able to 630 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: determine if he has an existence outside of this film, 631 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: like if he if he pre existed as part of 632 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: Russian folklore. I did not run across in any of 633 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: the stories I read, though I did not read all 634 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,399 Speaker 1: written accounts of Russian folklore, and I didn't find him 635 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: mentioned in any of the academic papers we're looking at. 636 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: But that that doesn't mean anything either. Uh. And certainly 637 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: that film was such a big part of of several cultures. 638 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: In sixty five of hints that you look and you 639 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: find like countless Christmas ornaments of him, So like now, 640 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: he is definitely a part of of our understanding of 641 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: Russian folklore to a certain extent. But I wasn't. I 642 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: was never sure he was authentically something that existed before 643 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: that film. You know, there are some interesting connections I 644 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: was thinking about between this this mushroomy character and the 645 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: less she beyond just the fact that he is sort 646 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: of a trickster guardian of the forest in a way, Uh, 647 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: there are some other things like, for example, I was 648 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: reading in one of our sources that the wrinkles on 649 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: a mushroom are often said to be the marks of 650 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: the less She's whip. Remember the less she carries the 651 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: now or the whip at to show his dominion and 652 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: over the forest. You know, it's like that, I'm the 653 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: boss stick. But apparently the all the little ribs and 654 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: wrinkles on the mushrooms are from him flicking the lash. Yeah. 655 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: I ran across that as well. Um, that that's that's 656 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: interesting that that seems to be the That was the only, like, 657 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: I think, one of the only true leshy mushroom connections 658 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: I came across. But I was reading Funguy folk Ways 659 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: and Fairy Tales, Mushrooms and Mildews and Stories, Remedies and 660 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: Rituals from Oberon to the Internet by Frank M. Duggan, 661 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: which was published in North American fung Guy in two 662 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: thousand eight, and Duggan writes that Eastern Europe and Russia 663 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: are generally mico Phillick in nature. Again going back to 664 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: we discussed this in a previous episode. How broadly speaking, 665 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: some cultures are mico philic and some are microphobic, and 666 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: this is often based just in how they describe and 667 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: broadly view mushrooms um uh and uh, and certainly listen 668 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: to our mushroom foraging episode for more insight on that. 669 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: But yes, uh, Slavic culture is Eastern Europe from you know, 670 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: Poland through Russia and Finland. I think it's widely viewed 671 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: as uh as a totally common and desirable thing to 672 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: go out in the forest looking for mushrooms. And yet 673 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,399 Speaker 1: at the same time, Dugan points out that there were 674 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: there was still often a taboo against speaking about certain 675 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: kinds of mushrooms due to sexual connotations associated with them. Huh. Likewise, 676 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: some sorts of mushrooms were also heavily associated with Baba Yaga. 677 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: That uh that that evil m haggish um which that 678 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: lives in the wood uh In in that that fabulous 679 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: hut with the chicken leg, there's a story about her 680 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: hunting for mushrooms and running into a hedgehog that was 681 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: doing the same thing. So the Bobba Yaga and the 682 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: hedgehog they reach an understanding and she later turns him 683 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,439 Speaker 1: into a boy hero. And then there's also this really 684 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: interesting bit in light of my Cilia quote, Baba Yaga 685 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: is also an associate of magic and benevolent spirit. It's 686 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: who dwell under mushrooms, under mushrooms. Well, so you mentioned 687 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: the massilia. Yeah, the fibers that stretch out underneath the soil, 688 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: that are in many ways the actual body of the 689 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: the fungus, whereas the mushroom part is just the fruiting 690 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: body is the reproductive part. Yeah. So I can't help 691 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: but wonder if that little nugget of folkloric wisdom is 692 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: is touching on this understanding that there's a you know, 693 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: this is vast network beneath the visible mushroom. I don't 694 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: know now, speaking of of Baba Yaga. According to Andreas 695 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: John's in Baba Yaga The Ambiguous Mother and Which of 696 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: the Russian folk tale in various Slavic languages and dialects, 697 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:46,879 Speaker 1: Baba derived words serve as names for the butterfly, cake, 698 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: types of cake, pears, and certain kinds of mushrooms, as 699 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: well as the pelican, and she is sometimes associated with 700 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: the leshi. The author points out that in the Mezen region, 701 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: the leshies life is often said to be the yaga Baba, 702 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 1: Wait did you mean to say? Or well, it was 703 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: written as Jaga Baba. So I'm not entirely sure if 704 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: we were. I mean, it's it seems very close. We 705 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: either they're dealing directly with Bobba Yaga or some regional 706 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: twist on it. I'm imagining the inverted Baba Yaga. Yeah, 707 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: John's rights. Uh. Melantinski referring to an author and his 708 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: colleagues feel that Bobba Yaga became associated with a forest 709 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: hut later than figures such as the forest spirit or 710 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: the bear. Presumably Baba Yaga is a later kind of 711 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: forest demon because of her anthropomorphic and therefore less archaic form. 712 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,280 Speaker 1: Whether or not she is the original owner, Babba Yaga 713 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: is probably the most frequent and popular inhabitant of the 714 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: forest hut in Eastern Slavic fairy tales. So in that 715 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,439 Speaker 1: you know, the author is talking about like forest huts 716 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: and how they factor into these various folk tales. But 717 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: it also points to this idea that that that you 718 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 1: have Bobby Yaga coming along after pre existing ideas of 719 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 1: forest spirits, because she's very much a forest spirit. She's 720 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: very much an encounter you have when you go into 721 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: the magical Russian forest. But there seems to be this 722 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: idea that the leshy is in essence something more archaic, 723 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: and perhaps I see this reflecting in other sources, perhaps 724 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: less story shape less, less fitting for a proper narrative, 725 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: and therefore you actually see less leshy than you might 726 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 1: think in in at least known and recorded Russian tales. 727 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: Maybe the less she is more often a figure than 728 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: a character. Yeah, yeah, you do see see him pop up, 729 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,439 Speaker 1: but less as like a key antagonist. But we will 730 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: touch on some examples here in a debt. Now. I 731 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: also looked around for tales concerning Ivan Tsarevich, the hero 732 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: in Jack Frost and a traditional Russian character, and I 733 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,840 Speaker 1: did find a tale concerning concerning Ivan and the leshy. 734 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and this is collected in a fabulous collect 735 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: entitled and Anthology of Russian Folk Tales by Jack V. Hainey. Okay, 736 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,800 Speaker 1: let's hear it all right, So the story mainly concerns 737 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: Ivan and the immortal antagonist uh cosh Jay the deathless 738 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 1: who's this this like evils are like being that is 739 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,399 Speaker 1: encountered in a lot of these tales, like he's he's 740 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 1: kind of the big bad. For instance, Boba Yaga is 741 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes like you know, more of the primary villain, 742 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: but she's often just this weird character you encounter on 743 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,760 Speaker 1: the way. But but the Deathless is just all evil 744 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: and and and terror and uh and and it's just 745 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 1: you know, the ultimate bad is he's sort of sort 746 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 1: of a low pan sort of yeah, just you know, 747 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 1: he can't die. But there's some sort of secret to 748 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: his immortality that the hero has to figure out, and 749 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: in this case, that's what Ivan is doing, trying to 750 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,400 Speaker 1: figure out how he can deal with this deathless enemy. 751 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 1: But in one part of the story, Ivan and basically 752 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: Ivan goes into the forest and his typical in Russian 753 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: tales hasn't counters in the forest that help and hinder it. 754 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: So in the forest, Ivan encounters three leshy in the 755 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: woods who are searching for their grandfather's buried treasure. And 756 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: these three treasures are an animate fighting club. So it's 757 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: like a club and you say, hey, go hit that 758 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: guy over the head, and the club goes and does it. 759 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 1: Um there's a hat of invisibility, which I don't have 760 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: to describe because we have versions of this in every 761 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: folk laura tradition I believe. And then you have the 762 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: fabulous self laying table cloth that seems not as good 763 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: as the other two, and yet it's it's amazing, especially 764 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: I guess if your dungeon master is very particular about 765 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,720 Speaker 1: making sure you're you're you're eating properly, because the self 766 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: laying table cloth is a table cloth that you whip 767 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: out and spread on the ground and it is instantly 768 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: set with food and beverage. Oh so it's it's kind 769 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,880 Speaker 1: of like a Loaves and Fishes multiplayer. Absolutely. So the 770 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,760 Speaker 1: leshy are fighting over the rights to these treasures, which 771 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,320 Speaker 1: Ivan has already found, by the way, and and Ivan 772 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,280 Speaker 1: tricks them into running a foot race instead of fighting. 773 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 1: He says, hey, don't fight each other over this. Why 774 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,399 Speaker 1: don't you run from here to that? See that far 775 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 1: tree that you can barely see over there mid the horizon, 776 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: go run at that. Whoever gets to that first wins 777 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,839 Speaker 1: and the less you're like, that's great, let's do it. 778 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 1: And they go off to run the race, and so 779 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 1: Ivan slips away while they're far away from him. From there, 780 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: he encounters the Baba Yaga at her hut, who he 781 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:32,839 Speaker 1: who's seeking for answers on how to achieve cash the deathless, 782 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 1: how to achieve his death, and of course the the 783 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: answer ends up that there's an egg in a box 784 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: hidden under a mountain that he has to gain access too. 785 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: So anyway, this is a fun encounter in and of itself, 786 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: but it also makes me think back to the Jack 787 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 1: Frost film and remember the sort of dwarf like bandits 788 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,960 Speaker 1: that the Ivan encounters and I can't help but wonder 789 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: if they are sort of serving as a version of 790 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,800 Speaker 1: Leshi in that regard. Yeah, like a danger risk, chaotic 791 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,719 Speaker 1: force in the forest that that Ivan has to interact with. 792 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: And Trick I can't remember in the movie, doesn't he 793 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: aren't their clubs in their scenes as well, like they 794 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: have to. They end up throwing clubs up in the 795 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: air and then later the clubs come back down and 796 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: hit them. Yes, they do. That seems to connect to 797 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: like the automatic fighting club that the unless she was 798 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,439 Speaker 1: arguing over. Yeah, I was, I was wondering the same thing. 799 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 1: Um now now again this this. I read this in 800 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: the Anthology of Russian Folk Tales by Jack V. Haney, 801 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: who I believe that this particular volume has ninety nine 802 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 1: different folk tales, some very small, someome a little bit longer, 803 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,320 Speaker 1: and also commentary on them. And it's it's a wonderful 804 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,280 Speaker 1: read I recommend it. But he also had like several 805 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,799 Speaker 1: volumes on top of this that he had compiled, and 806 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: these were just like the best or most you know, 807 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,279 Speaker 1: helpful to share with readers. But he he adds later 808 00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: in in this particular volumes, his stories featuring the FOURT 809 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,959 Speaker 1: speech spirit the leshy are uncommon, and perhaps this again 810 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 1: speaks to the more archaic take on this being a 811 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,359 Speaker 1: more archaic take on spirits of the forest, which are 812 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: less narrative compared to other embodiments of the forest and wildness, 813 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,320 Speaker 1: such as Baba Yaga or even you know Father Frost 814 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: Morosco himself, you know, who's very much an embodiment of 815 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: of the winds of winter. So it seems that maybe 816 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,320 Speaker 1: the less she and these stories are less going to 817 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: be like the main villain of the story and more 818 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: kind of an environmental threat. I mean, the less She 819 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 1: might be something kind of like a like a particular 820 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,719 Speaker 1: monster encountered along the way, or almost like a like 821 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: a pit of quicksand like just something that you've got 822 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,399 Speaker 1: to worry about in the in the wild environment. Yeah, yeah, 823 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 1: I think so. Now I want to share some other 824 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: points that that Haney makes about Russian folk tales in general, 825 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: because I think these can help us understand Russian folklore 826 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 1: a bit more and also understand the less She's place 827 00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: in these tales. So Haney contends that there are there 828 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 1: are more folk tales that may have emerged out of 829 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 1: the Russian people than any other. He says due in 830 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: part to the fact that well into the twentieth century, 831 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,239 Speaker 1: Russia quote remained in illiterate and basically peasant country where 832 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 1: folk traditions were strong and carefully maintained. Okay, so it's 833 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 1: the idea that if the culture was more literate, the 834 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:27,120 Speaker 1: folk tales would have been less less retold. Um. Well, 835 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 1: I guess the idea is like, once you start writing 836 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,400 Speaker 1: them down, right, then you have like a totally a 837 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,040 Speaker 1: different energy takeover regarding the folk tales, and then you 838 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,760 Speaker 1: also have different influences on the shape of those tales. 839 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 1: But in Russia, he's arguing that they remained, um like 840 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: the property of of the common Russian people, and they 841 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,080 Speaker 1: were speaking of this sort of Russian existence that had 842 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,960 Speaker 1: not changed a whole lot, you know, throughout their history. 843 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,320 Speaker 1: But then he points out that the twentieth century comes along, 844 00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: and this is an exceedingly hard time on the Russian 845 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,799 Speaker 1: people and it ends up disrupting their storytelling traditions. He 846 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,720 Speaker 1: also points out that Russia has the second largest number 847 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: of tale types according to the International Classification System for 848 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,480 Speaker 1: Folk tales. Uh, and this gets you know, when you 849 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,320 Speaker 1: get into the the scholarly study of folk tales, you 850 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: find it. Yeah, there are all these different classifications for 851 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,320 Speaker 1: the different types of tales you encounter in cultures around 852 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,279 Speaker 1: the world. He points out that there are a lot 853 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: of animal tales. Uh. The frequent villains you encounter are, 854 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 1: of course the Bobby Yaga, which is nasty dwarves shape 855 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:37,400 Speaker 1: shifting magicians. However, Bobby Yaga is also sometimes a donor 856 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 1: or helper. Frequent characters in general, you have Bobby Yaga 857 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: and her hut. You have the firebird co j, the 858 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:48,000 Speaker 1: Deathless Prince Ivan's are of Itch, who already mentioned Princess Elena, 859 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: and of course generic Czar is often involved as well. Uh, 860 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, the king that is. And I believe that 861 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 1: the exact nature of the king depends, uh, you know, 862 00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:59,600 Speaker 1: sometimes a little more on the cruel side, sometimes a 863 00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,719 Speaker 1: little more the deevolent side, kind of like just sort 864 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: of the generic keen you encounter in other folkloric traditions. Now, 865 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,960 Speaker 1: it does seem that a huge number of these tales 866 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:15,000 Speaker 1: do involve having to travel through the forest, right, Absolutely, 867 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 1: that the hero frequently wanders through the woods and at 868 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 1: some point receives help in his quest from an animal 869 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,200 Speaker 1: or some other sort of supernatural aid. And uh, and 870 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 1: sometimes the charactery encounters is a devil or the devil 871 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,600 Speaker 1: or the devil's offspring. Uh. This this was interesting. Um, 872 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,040 Speaker 1: this is a whole category of tail Ivan the fool 873 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,000 Speaker 1: versus the devil or the devil's offspring. And it's not 874 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: really Ivan as a fool, but Ivan, I think it's more, 875 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, he's clever, but in kind of a a 876 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:50,200 Speaker 1: roguish way. And in these tales, Haney writes, it's important 877 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 1: to recognize first the satire, but then also that the 878 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,479 Speaker 1: devil is not really a Christian devil, but quote rather 879 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,880 Speaker 1: a figure derived from the various malevolent spirits that inhabited 880 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 1: the Russian peasants universe, the forest spirit or leshy, the 881 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:11,320 Speaker 1: water spirit or Vodiana, and others too numerous to mention. 882 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,160 Speaker 1: So again the idea of the devil comes along, and 883 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 1: it ends up kind of absorbing these other ideas of 884 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,800 Speaker 1: evil things in the wild wood. This is just another 885 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,799 Speaker 1: one of the many interesting ways that the concept of 886 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,719 Speaker 1: Satan or the devil has evolved over the centuries. I mean, 887 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: like if you go back to the earliest versions of Satan, 888 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 1: even like in the in the Jewish tradition, Satan then 889 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,040 Speaker 1: is not even presented as as monstrous or evil, like 890 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: in the Book of job As seems to be one 891 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 1: of the earliest references to Satan. Satan is like one 892 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 1: of God's angels. You know, he kind of works for him. 893 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 1: He he's sort of like a prosecutor or a like 894 00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,840 Speaker 1: a detective doing you know, trying to sniff out disloyalty. 895 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 1: But later on you you incorporate more and more into 896 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: this adversary figure of the monstrous of evil, of the 897 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,239 Speaker 1: all that's wrong with the world. And I think this 898 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: is one of the reasons that the devil figure accumulates 899 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,719 Speaker 1: the monstrosity of every particular location and every culture that 900 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: absorbs him. Now, Hany does have some some of the 901 00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,120 Speaker 1: stories with Leshie of popping up. One of them that 902 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,280 Speaker 1: that was really good is a story called a Prince 903 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 1: and his Uncle, which features an old trapper in the 904 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,440 Speaker 1: woods who serves the farest spirit or leshy. When a 905 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,200 Speaker 1: greedy king shows up looking to squeeze more money out 906 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 1: of the commoners, he asked the old man how he 907 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,279 Speaker 1: catches his beasts, and the old man says, well, the 908 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,400 Speaker 1: farest spirit sets out snares and the beast is stupid 909 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,239 Speaker 1: and gets caught. So the king hears this and he 910 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,360 Speaker 1: gets an idea. He bribes the old man with wine 911 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,120 Speaker 1: and money for the location of these snares that again 912 00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,120 Speaker 1: were set by the leshy, and then the king orders 913 00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,160 Speaker 1: the leshy caught and fettered to an iron post. Meanwhile, 914 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,239 Speaker 1: the prince is a decent lad and listens to the 915 00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 1: leshis please for release. He instructs the prince in how 916 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:03,000 Speaker 1: to tame the key to his irons and distracts the 917 00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,680 Speaker 1: others uh while he's being released. Afterwards, the king is 918 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,319 Speaker 1: enraged and sends the prince out on an excursion into 919 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,560 Speaker 1: the far corners of the world his punishment, and he 920 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,719 Speaker 1: sends his old uncle with him to guide him. This 921 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,719 Speaker 1: uncle figure it's always in quotations, so it's like not 922 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 1: really his uncle um, But then again, it's not super 923 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 1: important to the story. Seemingly eventually, the prince and the 924 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,000 Speaker 1: uncle switched places, and at one point the less She 925 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,880 Speaker 1: meets the prince again and gives him some magical items, 926 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,200 Speaker 1: which include once more the self setting table cloth, but 927 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,600 Speaker 1: also a magic mirror that shows you whatever you want 928 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: to see and a magical musical instrument that kind of 929 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,560 Speaker 1: plays on demand. And then he later provides him with 930 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,840 Speaker 1: a horse and magical vodka to give him strength against 931 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,040 Speaker 1: a terrible monster. Now, sadly the story doesn't really involve 932 00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,839 Speaker 1: unless she beyond this point, but we see the less 933 00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: She kind of serving this role uh in the later 934 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 1: portions of the story as this magical forest creature that 935 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:02,640 Speaker 1: shows up and provide its assistance to the hero. But 936 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:04,799 Speaker 1: then he goes on to share what I think is 937 00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,640 Speaker 1: my favorite leshy story that I read um Hain. He 938 00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:12,759 Speaker 1: shares this story titled the Forest Spirit, which hinges on 939 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,279 Speaker 1: this notion that you have a leshy or some or 940 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,759 Speaker 1: various other creatures like a like a coldn which is 941 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 1: a type of male sorcerer if you if they are 942 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,400 Speaker 1: not invited to your wedding, they may show up anyway 943 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,319 Speaker 1: and find some way to spoil it. Wait, so you 944 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,800 Speaker 1: are supposed to invite them. Apparently, that's that's one tradition, 945 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,080 Speaker 1: is go ahead and invite the leshy. It's it would 946 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: be rude not to because if you don't invite the leshy, 947 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 1: he will show up and he might cause chaos. But 948 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:40,960 Speaker 1: I guess if you do invite him, he won't show 949 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:47,400 Speaker 1: up there. You know, they're fickle, chaotic creatures. It's reverse psychology. 950 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,879 Speaker 1: So this, this the forest spirit, is a fun little tail. 951 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:51,520 Speaker 1: There's not much to it, but this is how it 952 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,760 Speaker 1: goes down. Basically, So there's an old peasant who grows 953 00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,799 Speaker 1: and threshes grain, but then he suddenly keeps coming into 954 00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,120 Speaker 1: the drawing shed to find that the grain he is 955 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,920 Speaker 1: harvested is already threshed. Now, basically this means somebody is 956 00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,840 Speaker 1: doing half his work for him for free. But you 957 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,680 Speaker 1: know he's he's he's an old cadger, you know, probably 958 00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:11,759 Speaker 1: a bit grumpy about things. He wants to get to 959 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,799 Speaker 1: the bottom of this. He doesn't want unexplained threshing going 960 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,680 Speaker 1: on and his his his drying shed. So he asked 961 00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,719 Speaker 1: an old woman for help, and she says, well, I'm 962 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:21,759 Speaker 1: just an old woman. I can't help you. You're gonna 963 00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:23,799 Speaker 1: have to go ask the local witch. So he goes 964 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,319 Speaker 1: to the local witch and she says, well, look it's 965 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 1: a lessie that's doing this. Uh, but if you want 966 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,120 Speaker 1: to stop him, you want to catch the leshie, this 967 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,440 Speaker 1: is what you do. Stake out your shed and you 968 00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,000 Speaker 1: sneak up on him and you loop a necklace with 969 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 1: a cross around on it around his neck and that'll 970 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,839 Speaker 1: capture him, making him your servant. And so the old 971 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,240 Speaker 1: man does just that. Uh. The lessie of course immediately 972 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,719 Speaker 1: asked for release and offers to help the old man 973 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,800 Speaker 1: build a new slip to haul grain on in exchange 974 00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:55,680 Speaker 1: for his freedom. The old man agrees, but then keeps 975 00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,960 Speaker 1: asking for more work in exchange for the less She's released. 976 00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,239 Speaker 1: So he's like, well, I need some firewood. Maybe after 977 00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:04,480 Speaker 1: you give me some firewood. And he's like, well, you 978 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,520 Speaker 1: know I need the firewood chopped up as well. I 979 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,120 Speaker 1: am altering the deal. Pray I alter it no further, right, 980 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,239 Speaker 1: But then finally he says, you know, Lee, She says, 981 00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:16,759 Speaker 1: all right, how about now can I go free? I've 982 00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,239 Speaker 1: chopped your wood, I made you this slip. You know, 983 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,319 Speaker 1: what what else do you want? He's like, no, my 984 00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,200 Speaker 1: niece is getting married. Next week and you're coming to 985 00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:29,360 Speaker 1: the wedding with me. So the old man is just 986 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,640 Speaker 1: straight up taking the less she to a family wedding 987 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,560 Speaker 1: as his plus one. Does it explain why he wants 988 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,279 Speaker 1: the lessie to go to the wedding. Is he just 989 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,359 Speaker 1: trying to like pad out the attendance. I don't know, 990 00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:45,360 Speaker 1: Like he doesn't expressly say in this book, or doesn't 991 00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:47,480 Speaker 1: you know, interpret it expressly in this book. So I 992 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:49,680 Speaker 1: don't know if it's a sense where like I'm supposed 993 00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,480 Speaker 1: you're supposed to invite nless you to the wedding, so 994 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,360 Speaker 1: I will. I'll just straight up bring him. Like maybe 995 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,520 Speaker 1: he is misinterpreting the tradition being an old man who 996 00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,320 Speaker 1: lives in the woods or um, or maybe maybe he's lonely. 997 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I kind of like the idea that 998 00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,279 Speaker 1: he's lonely, and it's just like he's spending so much 999 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,799 Speaker 1: time with the less She's like, now I'm come to 1000 00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,680 Speaker 1: this wedding with me. Come hang out. I may need 1001 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:17,680 Speaker 1: you to chop some wood during the ceremony. Yeah. So 1002 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,440 Speaker 1: anyway they attend, the less she seems at first to 1003 00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,960 Speaker 1: be standing back and minding his own business in the 1004 00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,680 Speaker 1: corner of the room, standing by the doors, out of sight, 1005 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,040 Speaker 1: not even partaking of the food in the drink. But 1006 00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,799 Speaker 1: then the less She sees a pretty maid bringing out 1007 00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,920 Speaker 1: the soured milk in a cup, which, by the context 1008 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,279 Speaker 1: of the story seems to be just part of the ceremony. 1009 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:43,200 Speaker 1: So the less She immediately takes her, spins her around, 1010 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,799 Speaker 1: and then she falls down, spilling the milk all over 1011 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,080 Speaker 1: the place, And the less She begins to clap and 1012 00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,960 Speaker 1: laugh at this loudly so everybody hears it. The guests 1013 00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,200 Speaker 1: do not find this amusing at all, and they chastise 1014 00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,560 Speaker 1: the old man for bringing such a guest with him 1015 00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,160 Speaker 1: to the event. Oh so this is the first time 1016 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,879 Speaker 1: they've noticed there's a Lessi here at the wedding. Well, yeah, 1017 00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,160 Speaker 1: he's standing over there by the door. Nobody noticed until 1018 00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,280 Speaker 1: he started, you know, making a spectacle and spoiling the wedding. 1019 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,799 Speaker 1: So everyone is displeased, and they they curse him in 1020 00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,520 Speaker 1: all and can cuss at him. Uh, the old man, 1021 00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,359 Speaker 1: And unless she go home, the less She asked once 1022 00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:21,759 Speaker 1: more for his release, and the old man grants it 1023 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,640 Speaker 1: to him. And I love the way that Haney winds 1024 00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,759 Speaker 1: this up. Uh. He attributes this tale the telling him 1025 00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,160 Speaker 1: this tale to a sixty two year old peasant who 1026 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:34,800 Speaker 1: related it in nine and the final quote at the 1027 00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,879 Speaker 1: end of the tale is, in olden times, they believe this, 1028 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:43,440 Speaker 1: but now they don't believe anything. Those darn kids no 1029 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,440 Speaker 1: longer believe in the leshy. Yeah, I just yeah, I 1030 00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,360 Speaker 1: love the the grumpiness of the tale, like the tale 1031 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,640 Speaker 1: that like, I'm going to tell you this story. Kids 1032 00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,480 Speaker 1: don't believe it anymore, but it happened. This is actually 1033 00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,680 Speaker 1: similar to another tale that I was reading, at least 1034 00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:00,319 Speaker 1: summarized in in one of those sources as we were 1035 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,719 Speaker 1: looking at for this episode, which is the Encyclopedia of 1036 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,480 Speaker 1: Russian and Slavic Myth and Legend by Mike Dixon Kennedy. 1037 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:10,480 Speaker 1: And in this entry, there was a story where there's 1038 00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,080 Speaker 1: a there's an old man who lives by the forest 1039 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,080 Speaker 1: and one day a traveler appears and asks if he 1040 00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:19,560 Speaker 1: can rest in his hut, and the old man says, yeah, sure, 1041 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:21,600 Speaker 1: you can rest in my hut. Now. The old man 1042 00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,000 Speaker 1: is a is a cattle herdsman who has to, you know, 1043 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,360 Speaker 1: take his herd of cattle through the forest to graze. 1044 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:31,160 Speaker 1: And after giving the traveler a good night's rest in 1045 00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,240 Speaker 1: his home. He is told it's like revealed that the 1046 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,960 Speaker 1: traveler was a leshy, and was like, you know what, 1047 00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,360 Speaker 1: You're not gonna have to worry about your cattle anymore. 1048 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,680 Speaker 1: You don't have to follow them around. You just let 1049 00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:43,560 Speaker 1: him go out in rome in the morning, and then 1050 00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:45,760 Speaker 1: they'll come back full of and and give plenty of 1051 00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,560 Speaker 1: milk at the end of the day. And this happens 1052 00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,520 Speaker 1: for a while until the traveler gets curious about what's 1053 00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,560 Speaker 1: happening during the day, so he follows his cattle out 1054 00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,480 Speaker 1: and then finds that they are being shepherded in in 1055 00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:00,360 Speaker 1: or I guess, not shepherded. I don't know what the 1056 00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:02,600 Speaker 1: term for a person who herds cattle would be a 1057 00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,280 Speaker 1: cat cattle herded by some old crone, I guess the 1058 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:08,600 Speaker 1: the ideas that she's a witch or a helper of 1059 00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:11,440 Speaker 1: some kind of the leshy. And when he finds her 1060 00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,960 Speaker 1: and tries to speak to her in the forest, she vanishes, 1061 00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,440 Speaker 1: and then the basically the blessing is lifted and he 1062 00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,920 Speaker 1: has to keep toiling with his cattle again after that, 1063 00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:23,000 Speaker 1: like they're no longer self servicing cattle. Uh, And so 1064 00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,840 Speaker 1: his curiosity breaks the Leshi's goodwill. Yeah, yeah, that does 1065 00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:30,080 Speaker 1: seem a very similar story. The idea that lest she 1066 00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:34,000 Speaker 1: might just spontaneously start helping you you out, but if 1067 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,440 Speaker 1: you get too greedy about it, uh, then it's going 1068 00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:40,280 Speaker 1: to backfire on you too greedy or too curious. Yeah, well, 1069 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:42,600 Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately, I guess one way you could take 1070 00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:44,760 Speaker 1: the moral of that story is just like, don't go 1071 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:46,840 Speaker 1: in there, don't look too close at what's happening in 1072 00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,680 Speaker 1: the woods, don't inquire about the law of the woods. 1073 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,440 Speaker 1: Just let the woods do its thing. Yeah, alright, on 1074 00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:56,080 Speaker 1: that note, we're going to take another break, but we'll 1075 00:58:56,080 --> 00:59:02,200 Speaker 1: be right back. All right, we're back. So clearly, a 1076 00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,000 Speaker 1: lot of the folk tales about the less She come 1077 00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:09,160 Speaker 1: from anxieties people have about the idea of getting lost 1078 00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,080 Speaker 1: in the woods. Again, remember one of the main threats 1079 00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,000 Speaker 1: that the the Leshy and his demon or monster form 1080 00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,760 Speaker 1: uh you know, represents threats in a couple of different ways. 1081 00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,960 Speaker 1: One by like kidnapping children or unbaptized babies at the 1082 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:26,200 Speaker 1: forest's edge, but also by causing people to become lost 1083 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,240 Speaker 1: in the woods. You're traveling through the woods, maybe you're 1084 00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,280 Speaker 1: trying to stick to the path, But then you're lured 1085 00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,480 Speaker 1: off the path by the call of the leshy or 1086 00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:35,520 Speaker 1: by the less she pretending to be somebody you know, 1087 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,000 Speaker 1: or you know, or or mimicking the sound of a 1088 00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:41,080 Speaker 1: distressed child. And then you get lost in the woods. 1089 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,640 Speaker 1: You you can't find your way home, and you perish 1090 00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,720 Speaker 1: out among the trees. I wanted to talk about an 1091 00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:50,160 Speaker 1: article that I was reading about the real life sort 1092 00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,440 Speaker 1: of like science and history of people getting lost in 1093 00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:55,480 Speaker 1: the woods. Uh. This is an exert adapted from a 1094 00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,200 Speaker 1: book called From Here to There, The Art and Science 1095 00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:01,440 Speaker 1: of Finding and Losing Our Way by Michael Bond, published 1096 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:05,200 Speaker 1: by Harvard University Press. This excerpt was published and Wired 1097 01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:08,320 Speaker 1: and I thought this was really interesting. So a lot 1098 01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:12,200 Speaker 1: of the article focuses on the story of Geraldine Larkay, 1099 01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,400 Speaker 1: who was a sixty six year old retired nurse from 1100 01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:19,400 Speaker 1: Tennessee who died in the forest after becoming lost just 1101 01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:24,960 Speaker 1: off of the Appalachian Trail, and once her body was discovered, 1102 01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:28,720 Speaker 1: details from her diary and her phone clarified what happened. 1103 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:32,520 Speaker 1: She had been hiking the Appalachian Trail and she moved 1104 01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,080 Speaker 1: just slightly off the path in order to go to 1105 01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,480 Speaker 1: the bathroom. It was that she wrote that she went 1106 01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:41,000 Speaker 1: no more than eighty paces off the path, but then 1107 01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:45,680 Speaker 1: afterwards was nevertheless unable to find the trail again. She 1108 01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:49,440 Speaker 1: survived for nineteen days before dying of the effects of 1109 01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:53,360 Speaker 1: exposure and starvation, and when her campsite was discovered, it 1110 01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:55,960 Speaker 1: became clear that she was actually less than half a 1111 01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,280 Speaker 1: mile from the trail as the crow flies, and that 1112 01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:02,640 Speaker 1: search and rescue teams with dogs had passed within a 1113 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:06,320 Speaker 1: hundred yards of her campsite while she was still alive. 1114 01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:09,680 Speaker 1: She was also really close to some railroad tracks that 1115 01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:11,760 Speaker 1: could have led her out of the forest if she'd 1116 01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,520 Speaker 1: known about them. And in this case and others like it, 1117 01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:19,120 Speaker 1: there are there's some really kind of like cruel and 1118 01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,840 Speaker 1: unsympathetic and and and dumb ways that people react to 1119 01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,720 Speaker 1: this by saying like, oh, how could you know? How dumb? 1120 01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:27,800 Speaker 1: How you know she could have survived? How could you 1121 01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:31,120 Speaker 1: get lost when you're that close to the trail. But 1122 01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:35,040 Speaker 1: Bond points out that experienced hikers don't talk like this 1123 01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:38,760 Speaker 1: because most of them know actually how easy it is 1124 01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:43,080 Speaker 1: to become hopelessly lost in a forest, and how powerful 1125 01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:46,600 Speaker 1: is the urge to do all of the just exactly 1126 01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:50,640 Speaker 1: the wrong things in that scenario. For example, one common 1127 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,000 Speaker 1: piece of advice is if you're lost in the woods, 1128 01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,800 Speaker 1: you should immediately stop moving, Like as soon as you 1129 01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:57,840 Speaker 1: realize that you don't know where you are and you 1130 01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:00,000 Speaker 1: don't know how to get back where you came from, 1131 01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:04,120 Speaker 1: immediately stop moving, stay in place, and you're more likely 1132 01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,280 Speaker 1: to survive. While you're in place, you can come up 1133 01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:09,880 Speaker 1: with a plan if you need to, and not exhaust 1134 01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:13,440 Speaker 1: yourself moving around or getting more lost in the process. 1135 01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,720 Speaker 1: You can wait for rescue without worth, without wandering further 1136 01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:20,600 Speaker 1: and further away from where you were. However, the stop 1137 01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:24,840 Speaker 1: and wait plan, while actually very good advice, is extremely 1138 01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:29,960 Speaker 1: difficult to actually follow. What people with experience report is 1139 01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,160 Speaker 1: that the moment you realize you're lost in the woods, 1140 01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,560 Speaker 1: you are overcome with a powerful sense of panic that 1141 01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:41,280 Speaker 1: compels you to keep moving, in fact, to start running 1142 01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:45,000 Speaker 1: all over the place. Bond quotes a British psychologist named 1143 01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,640 Speaker 1: Hugo Spears for from another work about his experience of 1144 01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:53,760 Speaker 1: becoming temporarily lost in the rainforest in Peru. So Spears writes, quote, 1145 01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:57,240 Speaker 1: so I didn't go far, but it's the jungle, and 1146 01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:01,440 Speaker 1: ten ms into the jungle is enough to be completely disoriented. 1147 01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:05,040 Speaker 1: I was lost in this jungle for two hours. They 1148 01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:07,560 Speaker 1: sent a dog out to find me. I wasn't the 1149 01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,960 Speaker 1: first person to have a dog sent out. It was terrifying. 1150 01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:15,240 Speaker 1: My brain just wanted me to run, just run, just 1151 01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,360 Speaker 1: keep moving. I was very aware that that was not 1152 01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,440 Speaker 1: the right strategy. Keeping moving in the jungle is not 1153 01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,080 Speaker 1: going to save your life. So I tried to calm 1154 01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:27,000 Speaker 1: down and think carefully and not react at high speed 1155 01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:30,080 Speaker 1: and look at my environment. And I realized I was 1156 01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:33,920 Speaker 1: going in circles, exactly like in the movies. I was 1157 01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 1: using a machete to mark big trees, laying down a 1158 01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,920 Speaker 1: thread to know if I'd come that way. Before that 1159 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:43,160 Speaker 1: was starting to work, I'd mark a tree with three slashes, 1160 01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,480 Speaker 1: and if I ended up back at that tree, I 1161 01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:48,200 Speaker 1: knew I'd gone in a circle. I was nearly back 1162 01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:50,280 Speaker 1: at the camp when they sent the dog out, but 1163 01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,920 Speaker 1: it was a huge relief. It just made me very 1164 01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:56,680 Speaker 1: aware that being really, really lost is quite terrifying. It 1165 01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:01,000 Speaker 1: is not a normal thing. I think being lost in 1166 01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:04,680 Speaker 1: the woods is one of those types of scenarios where 1167 01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:08,760 Speaker 1: your imagination of it really does not capture what the 1168 01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:12,600 Speaker 1: experience would be like people imagine, they're like, Okay, you know, 1169 01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:17,080 Speaker 1: I've I've I've gotten turned around disoriented before, maybe you know, 1170 01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:18,600 Speaker 1: in a in a in a city, or in a 1171 01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:20,960 Speaker 1: neighborhood or something. You don't know exactly where you're going, 1172 01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:22,920 Speaker 1: but it's pretty easy to find your way back when 1173 01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:26,640 Speaker 1: there are roads and sidewalks and landmarks. Oh yeah, there's 1174 01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:30,080 Speaker 1: that house. Being lost in the woods is not like that. 1175 01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,280 Speaker 1: Being lost in the woods, I think could it could 1176 01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:35,560 Speaker 1: be argued that it is a form of an altered 1177 01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:40,440 Speaker 1: state of consciousness that is terrifying and completely short circuits 1178 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:44,520 Speaker 1: your better judgment in multiple ways. Oh absolutely. And you know, 1179 01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:47,920 Speaker 1: I I have my friends who have been lost in 1180 01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:52,360 Speaker 1: the forest before, and they were not like as lost 1181 01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,720 Speaker 1: as like one can truly become lost in the forest, 1182 01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:58,480 Speaker 1: or certainly as lost as one could in the times 1183 01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:00,800 Speaker 1: of these folk tales, because they at least had not 1184 01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:03,960 Speaker 1: lost cell coverage for their phone and we're able to 1185 01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,240 Speaker 1: to use that. You know, they were still tethered to 1186 01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:09,480 Speaker 1: the into the civilized world via their their device, and 1187 01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,600 Speaker 1: it was still a terrifying experience. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, 1188 01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:17,080 Speaker 1: try to imagine it without those devices, without even a compass. Again, 1189 01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:21,200 Speaker 1: this is there's so many ways that imagining what it 1190 01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:23,200 Speaker 1: would be like to be lost in the forest does 1191 01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,040 Speaker 1: not really cut it. Like, you're not likely to predict 1192 01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:27,880 Speaker 1: a lot of the ways that your normal powers of 1193 01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:32,720 Speaker 1: navigation fail. For example, of course, now, uh, if you 1194 01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,120 Speaker 1: are lost in the woods, it is generally advised that 1195 01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:38,720 Speaker 1: you should just stop and wait for rescue. But if 1196 01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:40,600 Speaker 1: you are going to walk, you need to have a 1197 01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:43,240 Speaker 1: good idea where you're going and try to travel in 1198 01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:46,720 Speaker 1: a straight line. You might think that going straight is easy, right, 1199 01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:48,520 Speaker 1: I can walk a straight line. We all you know, 1200 01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:51,280 Speaker 1: we walk straight lines all day. But actually it is 1201 01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:55,720 Speaker 1: not easy without landmarks, without trails or a compass. Lost 1202 01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:58,640 Speaker 1: people really do, and this is proven by research. They 1203 01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:03,000 Speaker 1: just walk in circles. There was research in two thousand 1204 01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:08,000 Speaker 1: nine by by Jan Suman who used GPS monitors to 1205 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,400 Speaker 1: track volunteers while they tried to navigate in a straight 1206 01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,120 Speaker 1: line through a couple of natural environments without the aid 1207 01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:18,240 Speaker 1: of external landmarks or signs. This was the Sahara Desert 1208 01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,400 Speaker 1: and Germany's buy and Waled Forest, and it did not 1209 01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:25,280 Speaker 1: go well. When they couldn't see the sun, people could 1210 01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:28,360 Speaker 1: not travel in a straight line at all. Small initial 1211 01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:32,400 Speaker 1: errors in orientation would just quickly grow wider as they 1212 01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:36,680 Speaker 1: piled upon themselves. And people actually truly did just walk 1213 01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:39,120 Speaker 1: in circles. I know, it sounds like that wouldn't happen. 1214 01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:40,720 Speaker 1: You're like, no, no, no, I could, I could go 1215 01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,840 Speaker 1: into straight line, but you probably couldn't you just go 1216 01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:47,080 Speaker 1: in circles? Uh? And to read from the article quote, 1217 01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,520 Speaker 1: Suman concluded that with no external cues to help them, 1218 01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,280 Speaker 1: people will not travel more than around a hundred meters 1219 01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:58,160 Speaker 1: from their starting position, regardless of how long they walk for. 1220 01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,600 Speaker 1: That's so hard to believe, but apparently it's true. Yeah, 1221 01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:06,439 Speaker 1: that the path in the forest is not just a suggestion, 1222 01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,920 Speaker 1: you know it is. It is a lifeline. But another 1223 01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:13,920 Speaker 1: big part of this article, Bond talks about how being 1224 01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:16,480 Speaker 1: lost in the forest it doesn't just make it hard 1225 01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:19,440 Speaker 1: to navigate. It does that, but it also affects the 1226 01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,280 Speaker 1: way we reason. He says being lost as a cognitive state, 1227 01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:27,200 Speaker 1: in that the woods make it extremely difficult, sometimes basically impossible, 1228 01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,960 Speaker 1: to form a mental map of your surroundings because woods 1229 01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:31,960 Speaker 1: just kind of look like woods if you're if you're 1230 01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:34,560 Speaker 1: not used to being in them. Uh. He says, quote, 1231 01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:38,000 Speaker 1: nothing in your spatial memory matches what you see. Your 1232 01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:41,680 Speaker 1: normal mental equipment for navigation becomes close to useless. But 1233 01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,160 Speaker 1: even more so, Bond argues that being lost is an 1234 01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:50,240 Speaker 1: emotional state quote. It delivers a psychic double whammy. Not 1235 01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:52,960 Speaker 1: only are you stricken with fear, you also lose your 1236 01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:57,280 Speaker 1: ability to reason. You suffer what neuroscientists Joseph Lead calls 1237 01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:02,480 Speaker 1: a hostile takeover of consciousness by a motion of people 1238 01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,360 Speaker 1: make things a lot worse for themselves when they realize 1239 01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:09,200 Speaker 1: they are lost by running, for instance, because they're afraid, 1240 01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:11,880 Speaker 1: they can't solve problems or figure out what to do. 1241 01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,280 Speaker 1: They fail to notice landmarks or fail to remember them. 1242 01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:18,880 Speaker 1: They lose track of how far they've traveled. They feel claustrophobic, 1243 01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:22,240 Speaker 1: as if their surroundings are closing in on them. Uh 1244 01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:24,880 Speaker 1: And Bond also says that there are chemical signatures of 1245 01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,840 Speaker 1: this lost in the woods panic. He quotes a search 1246 01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:32,040 Speaker 1: and rescue specialist named Robert Kester who argues that being 1247 01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:35,639 Speaker 1: lost is, in terms of neurobiology, similar to a panic attack. 1248 01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:39,920 Speaker 1: The body floods with catechola means, and the standard fight 1249 01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,800 Speaker 1: or flight behavior patterns get triggered. So in a subjective sense, 1250 01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,160 Speaker 1: it often feels kind of like a break with reality. 1251 01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:48,280 Speaker 1: You know, you you're just kind of you feel like 1252 01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:51,559 Speaker 1: you're losing your mind. And this can even last after 1253 01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:55,240 Speaker 1: a person gets out of the state. He also quotes 1254 01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:58,519 Speaker 1: Ed Cornell, who's a psychologist who studies the behavior of 1255 01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:00,960 Speaker 1: people who get lost, and and Cornell says that it 1256 01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:03,519 Speaker 1: can be really difficult to get information out of a 1257 01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:07,559 Speaker 1: person who's been lost. They often have trouble communicating their 1258 01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:11,599 Speaker 1: experience and can't remember quite what happened to them, and 1259 01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:15,080 Speaker 1: uh and and the type of disorientation and panic and 1260 01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:17,519 Speaker 1: stress that's brought on by being lost in the woods 1261 01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:22,160 Speaker 1: causes people sometimes to experience delusions and hallucinations. Even in 1262 01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:26,000 Speaker 1: otherwise healthy people or seemingly otherwise healthy people, they will 1263 01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:30,439 Speaker 1: sometimes report hallucinating interactions with people in the forest. And 1264 01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,400 Speaker 1: given all this, it's not hard at all to see 1265 01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:35,400 Speaker 1: where stories and an otherworldly demon who lives in the 1266 01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:38,559 Speaker 1: forest and lures people into becoming lost where they would 1267 01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:42,240 Speaker 1: come from. You know, you can easily imagine somebody becoming 1268 01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:46,000 Speaker 1: lost in the forest in medieval Russia and then by 1269 01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:49,240 Speaker 1: chance they managed to find their way back or get 1270 01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:52,760 Speaker 1: rescued somehow, and what is their experience might be kind 1271 01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:55,639 Speaker 1: of hard for them to remember what happened, that's strange. 1272 01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,320 Speaker 1: And they may be experienced like stress based hallucinations while 1273 01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:02,719 Speaker 1: they were out there, hearing voices or hearing sounds, maybe 1274 01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:06,679 Speaker 1: even seeing people who were taunting them or luring them 1275 01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:10,000 Speaker 1: this way and that, Uh, it becomes quite clear how 1276 01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,040 Speaker 1: stories like this could come out of real experiences. Yeah. 1277 01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:18,040 Speaker 1: And and I think it's also interesting how you know, 1278 01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:19,960 Speaker 1: we can compare this to the leshy and the idea 1279 01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:23,559 Speaker 1: of the leshy being both gigantic and small, hiding behind 1280 01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:26,160 Speaker 1: blades of glad grass, and also being the another size 1281 01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:29,000 Speaker 1: of a bell tower. There's this kind of this idea 1282 01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:33,160 Speaker 1: of the nature of the leshy warps physical space in 1283 01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:36,040 Speaker 1: a way that seems to line up well with this 1284 01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:40,439 Speaker 1: um that the experiences we're describing here. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, 1285 01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:44,040 Speaker 1: I gotta say researching this episode has has made me 1286 01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:47,120 Speaker 1: think kind of differently. I Mean, I'm somebody who I 1287 01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:48,960 Speaker 1: love to go hiking in the woods on a on 1288 01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:51,880 Speaker 1: a path of course, and in the past I think 1289 01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:55,400 Speaker 1: I might have been i don't know, more likely to 1290 01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:57,720 Speaker 1: to say like, oh, there's something that looks cool over there. 1291 01:10:57,800 --> 01:10:59,840 Speaker 1: Maybe I'll go off the path. I think that's some 1292 01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:03,280 Speaker 1: think people should genuinely be cautious about, Like it is 1293 01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:06,040 Speaker 1: much easier to lose the path and lose your way 1294 01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:09,240 Speaker 1: in the woods than you might think. Yeah, certainly to 1295 01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,040 Speaker 1: keep in mind for anybody who listened to our episode 1296 01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:14,639 Speaker 1: on mushroom foraging and decides to get into it, because 1297 01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, often is the case that you you spot 1298 01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:20,639 Speaker 1: the you know, the the tempting Chanterrell's just a little 1299 01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:22,840 Speaker 1: off the path, and you may go out to them 1300 01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:25,360 Speaker 1: and you and may that may work out just fine, uh, 1301 01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:28,719 Speaker 1: you know, for you, but it also might not, especially 1302 01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:31,320 Speaker 1: if you then see the next patch of Chanterrelle's or 1303 01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:34,559 Speaker 1: what might be Chanterrelle's, but also might be just some 1304 01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:37,400 Speaker 1: some you know, orange ish colored leaves on the ground, 1305 01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,080 Speaker 1: and then before you know it, uh, the lesh she 1306 01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:43,120 Speaker 1: has led you astray. We will eat them. We won't 1307 01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:45,800 Speaker 1: eat them, We will saute them in butter. We will 1308 01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:50,439 Speaker 1: be saute in butter. I I do you know again, 1309 01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:52,639 Speaker 1: I have to to really recommend that that Haney book 1310 01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:54,519 Speaker 1: for anyone who wants to read Russian folk tales. But 1311 01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:57,400 Speaker 1: I have to drive home again just how good that 1312 01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,519 Speaker 1: sixty Jack Frost film is not only terms of just 1313 01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:03,720 Speaker 1: what a beautiful production it is, but it seems to 1314 01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:07,479 Speaker 1: really capture the nature of those Russian folk tales because 1315 01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:12,160 Speaker 1: there's this like whimsy and danger and magic, uh that 1316 01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:14,559 Speaker 1: is inherent in a lot of these beings. Like, for instance, 1317 01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:19,480 Speaker 1: the Babba Yaga herself is in the tales often described, 1318 01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, is being you know, having these qualities of 1319 01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:25,840 Speaker 1: of a woodland monster spirit, but also of just like 1320 01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:30,160 Speaker 1: a ridiculous, farting old woman, you know, And and all 1321 01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:32,200 Speaker 1: of that I think is reflected very well. And that 1322 01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:36,639 Speaker 1: whimsical performance in the film. Yes, Tom Petty Riff Society, 1323 01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:40,280 Speaker 1: it is haunted by peasant genius, it really is, you know. 1324 01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:43,800 Speaker 1: Another interesting point than Haney made in his overview of 1325 01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:46,599 Speaker 1: Russian folk tales is that, aside from the fact that 1326 01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:50,360 Speaker 1: the hero very frequently goes into the forest and has 1327 01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:55,960 Speaker 1: an encounter, also the hero always prevails, uh. Like, Haney 1328 01:12:55,960 --> 01:12:58,479 Speaker 1: really underlined that, like the the hero is going to 1329 01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:01,639 Speaker 1: win in these stories. So again we can think back 1330 01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:04,200 Speaker 1: to so many of these tales dealing with like the 1331 01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:07,200 Speaker 1: the chaotic nature of the woods and it being they 1332 01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:12,120 Speaker 1: being stories about how humans can and do overcome the 1333 01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:15,160 Speaker 1: chaos of the wilds. Though it's funny because the story 1334 01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:18,840 Speaker 1: is also uh, they don't encourage what in the modern 1335 01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:21,160 Speaker 1: day at least is generally the best behavior if you 1336 01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:24,000 Speaker 1: become lost in the woods, like the you know, Ivan 1337 01:13:24,240 --> 01:13:27,240 Speaker 1: Sarvag does not sit down and wait for rescue. He 1338 01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:29,759 Speaker 1: does not hug a tree, which is actually the smartest 1339 01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:31,280 Speaker 1: thing to do if you get lost. He's like, no, 1340 01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:36,680 Speaker 1: forge ahead. Yeah, it always works out for him eventually. 1341 01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:40,280 Speaker 1: If you get lost, don't be like Ivan. I guess 1342 01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:42,519 Speaker 1: unless you've got a self setting table cloth, then you 1343 01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:44,680 Speaker 1: might be okay. Oh yeah. I mean if you've got 1344 01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:47,800 Speaker 1: a self setting table cloth, that's really gonna help you 1345 01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:49,439 Speaker 1: out in the long run. I mean that that means 1346 01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:51,240 Speaker 1: you don't have to worry about food and water. Do 1347 01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:53,400 Speaker 1: you think the food from the self setting table cloth 1348 01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:55,679 Speaker 1: was good or was it just like you know, kind 1349 01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:59,040 Speaker 1: of you know, it's bread or whatever. Is it like 1350 01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:03,200 Speaker 1: really nice were ma stuff? Um? I mean I'm assuming 1351 01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:09,040 Speaker 1: it was probably like basic like everyday food. Uh. I 1352 01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:11,519 Speaker 1: guess it was pretty good. I mean there's a section 1353 01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:14,800 Speaker 1: where where Ivan's dining from it. Um, And I don't know, 1354 01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:16,600 Speaker 1: it's just not. I don't think it was mentioned in 1355 01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:19,680 Speaker 1: that particular retelling of the tale, but I imagine it 1356 01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:25,360 Speaker 1: as being like typical like typical Russian people's food, borsht 1357 01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:28,720 Speaker 1: and morals. Yeah, I guess so. You know, all right, 1358 01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna go ahead and close this out here. Obviously 1359 01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:33,559 Speaker 1: there there's there's so many other things we could talk 1360 01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:38,040 Speaker 1: about with Russian folklore, a tremendous amount of material out there. 1361 01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:40,559 Speaker 1: You know, who knows if if you all enjoyed listening 1362 01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:43,120 Speaker 1: to this episode, perhaps we could return in the future, 1363 01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:46,320 Speaker 1: but we would love to hear from you in the meantime. 1364 01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:49,840 Speaker 1: Some of the key questions UM would regard, of course, 1365 01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:53,519 Speaker 1: did you grow up watching Jack Frost? If so, tell 1366 01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:55,880 Speaker 1: us about that and it's impact on your you know, 1367 01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:58,360 Speaker 1: your your your holidays or your just a sort of 1368 01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:01,240 Speaker 1: appreciation of cinema in general. I understand it was quite 1369 01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:05,519 Speaker 1: influential on some filmmakers. By the way, I also am 1370 01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:10,040 Speaker 1: interested if anybody has any definite answers regarding father or 1371 01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:13,679 Speaker 1: grandfather Mushroom, does he have an existence in Russian Russian 1372 01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:17,519 Speaker 1: folklore prior to that nineteen film. I would I would 1373 01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:20,880 Speaker 1: love to to have some clarity on that question, and 1374 01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:24,599 Speaker 1: of course if you have been lost in the woods, 1375 01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:27,960 Speaker 1: either just a little bit lost or like majorly lost 1376 01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:31,160 Speaker 1: in the woods, if you would like to share your 1377 01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:33,559 Speaker 1: your experience with us and tell us how it relates 1378 01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:36,360 Speaker 1: to both the you know, the studies that Joe mentioned 1379 01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:39,040 Speaker 1: and also the folklore we've discussed here, we would love 1380 01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:41,640 Speaker 1: to hear from you totally. In the meantime, if you 1381 01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:43,400 Speaker 1: would like to check out other episodes of Stuff to 1382 01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:45,840 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind, you can find us wherever you get 1383 01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:48,760 Speaker 1: your podcast and wherever that happens to be. We just 1384 01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:51,479 Speaker 1: asked that you rate, review and subscribe. 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