1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 3: This is buried bones. 13 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, it's good to see you again. 14 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: Good to see you too. How's it going. 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: I'm doing pretty good. What's going on on your end? 16 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: Well, I just had something unusual happen. I don't know 17 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: if you're a napper, but I actually was able to 18 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: take a nap right before. Is this a big conversation 19 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: we're going to have? 20 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 2: This is a big conversation. I am a napper? 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: Are you really so? My dad was a napper. He 22 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: was a law professor at UT. He had a couch 23 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: in his office and he would take a nap every afternoon, 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: Like I don't know a nap. It's an hour and 25 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: a half. That doesn't seem like a nap, that's stretching 26 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: into an early bedtime. But he could sleep in almost 27 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: any situation his car. He fell asleep on a tractor 28 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: kind of one time. I mean, he could snooze. Are 29 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: you that kind of a guy, because I am not 30 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: that kind. 31 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 2: Of a guy. No, no, no, you know, I do 32 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: what I call my old man nap, And so usually 33 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: it's right around mid morning to noonish and I'll lay down, 34 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: I'll put headphones on and listen to my music, and 35 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: I don't fall asleep. It's more of a meditation, but 36 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 2: it definitely gives me more energy to finish out the day. 37 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: And I typically, like before we sit down and go 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: through a story, I'll do my nap right before, so 39 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: my mind is fresh. 40 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: Really, I did not know that. That's your pre buried bones. 41 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: Ritual is taking a nap. Mine is listening to Tina 42 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: Turner and driving around in circles in my neighborhood, and 43 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: yours is taking a nap. 44 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: Yep, I have to have all the energy to put 45 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: up with you, Kate, to that sort. 46 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: Well, listen, with this case we're going into. I hope 47 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 1: you took a supersonic nap because this is a big, 48 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: big case and it's been in the news lately, and 49 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: it's set in Australia. And I'm not even going to ask, 50 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: because I'm just going to say, ninety nine percent chance 51 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: you have not been to Australia. 52 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: I have not been there, but I hope to get 53 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: there someday. 54 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: Well, this is a mystery. It is Cold War, it 55 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: is spies. It is somebody who shows up on a 56 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: beach and we cannot forget out for a very long 57 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: time who he is. And so this is victim profiling. 58 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: I think it away victimology, and I know that this 59 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: is an area you really like talking about, and we 60 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: talk about how important understanding who the victim is and 61 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: who their circle is is in these cases. So I 62 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: think this is something you're going to be able to 63 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: dig into. 64 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: That's great. Victimology is huge, and so I'm looking forward 65 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 2: to learning about who the victim is. 66 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's go ahead and set the scene. So 67 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: we are in Australia, nineteen forty eight, and it's late November, 68 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: and we are in Adelaide, Australia, in an area called 69 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: Somerton Park. It's a seasonably warm evening end of November 70 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: and there are people walking along a beach that's populated. 71 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: This is not a huge beach in Florida where loads 72 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: of people are around, but this is not isolated like 73 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: some of the other beaches we've talked about that have 74 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: become crime scenes. There's a little bit of a setup. 75 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: But lucky for you, I have a lot of photos. 76 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: Maybe unlucky for you. I don't know how helpful they're 77 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: going to be, but they'll be interesting for you to see. 78 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: I know. I try to pick cases where I have 79 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: some photos available, and we don't always have those, so 80 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: I know you'll be happy to see. You'll be happy 81 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: to see anything. At this point. 82 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 2: I'm such a visual person. It really does help. Even 83 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 2: if it's not something that's overly informative about the crime, 84 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 2: it gives me a better idea about the case. 85 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: I agree. And there's some nice photos that we have available. Okay, 86 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: so we are on this beach. We're in, as I said, Adelaide, Australia, 87 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: and there is a couple walking along the walk that 88 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: runs alongside the beach, and it's about seven to fifteen 89 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: at night, and it's a businessman and his wife and 90 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: they're just trying to enjoy a night out. They're in 91 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: an area of the beach, as I said, where there 92 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: are people around, it's not isolated, and they spot something 93 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: that is weird but not completely alarming. So this is scene. 94 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: You have to imagine the scene. There's a man who 95 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: is in a slouched position, so legs on the ground. 96 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: He's sitting in a seated position. He's slouched over against 97 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: a nearby retaining wall and his legs are stretched out 98 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: in front of him, and the couple is concerned, but 99 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: then he puts his arms in the air and they 100 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: assume that he's drunk, so they don't intervene. They just 101 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: pass by and he's slumped over. So about fifteen minutes later, 102 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: another couple comes by. They assume the same thing. He's 103 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: either drunk or he's asleep, but they do think it's 104 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: odd that he's not swatting away any of the mosquitoes 105 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: that are flying nearby because it's a warm night. Nevertheless, 106 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: they continue on their way and nothing comes of this. 107 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: Six o'clock the next morning, the businessman who was with 108 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: his wife at seven point fifteen comes back to the beach. 109 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: He wants to go for a swim, and he's shocked 110 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: that the man is still sitting in the same position, 111 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: legs out, slumped over. But now there are people who 112 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: have gathered around him him and they're starting to call 113 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: for help because it appears like he's dead and now 114 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: his feet are crossed at the ankles. And I want 115 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: to show you two pictures just before we get into 116 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: details about I know you want to know all about 117 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: the autopsy and everything else that we can figure out, 118 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: but I wanted to show you the scene. If we're 119 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: talking about the classic is this a murder, is this 120 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: an accident, or is this a suicide? So let me 121 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: just show you. Is that okay if we just jump 122 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: right into the photos. 123 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, let's do it, okay. 124 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: So you see the area of the beach where he 125 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: was sitting. There's a wall there and some staircases and 126 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: he's slumped up against this wall. And this is you know, 127 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: where people spotted him. And there's another photo when you 128 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: want it of a police officer who is posing the 129 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: way that he was found in the same location. 130 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 2: So this is a photo where I'm seeing this fairly 131 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 2: dramatic change in elevation. The photographer is standing on the beach, 132 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: probably closer to the water, towards what appears to be 133 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 2: a conk type retaining wall, and then the land behind 134 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 2: that retaining wall rises fairly dramatically. It's fairly steep up 135 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: to a roadway, and then there are buildings in the 136 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: background which appear possibly to be fairly sizeable houses or 137 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 2: maybe commercial structures. There's an X that I'm presuming marks 138 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 2: the spot where the man was leaning up against the 139 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: retaining wall. If his back is to the retaining wall, 140 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: that means he's facing the water. To his left appears 141 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: to be a staircase that initially goes up on top 142 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: of the retaining wall, and then there's a small landing, 143 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: and then there's another staircase that goes up this steep 144 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: slope to the roadway above him. So immediately, what I'm 145 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: noticing is is that where the man is positioned, people 146 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: that are above him would really struggle to see him 147 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: just because of the change in elevation. See the top 148 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: of his head depending on how tall this retaining wall is, 149 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: and his feet sticking out, but he would be obscured. 150 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: But the people who are on the beach, and I 151 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: believe the couple that you said were walking the night 152 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: before were on a walkway on the beach, they would 153 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: easily be able to see him. 154 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and let me show you the other perspective here. 155 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: This is the one of the officer who is posing. 156 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,119 Speaker 1: Now you can actually see from this reenactment how tall 157 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: the retaining wall would have been. Now. Also the caveat 158 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: here is this death happened in nineteen forty eight. This 159 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: reenactment happened in the nineteen seventies. So I don't know 160 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: what structurally might have changed, but at least you can see, 161 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, the way that they sort of posed him. 162 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's there's a dramatic change when you 163 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 2: take a look at now it's just the retaining wall 164 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: and the entire elevated land is gone. It looks like 165 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: they've lowered. Why would they do that? This is really weird. 166 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, it doesn't make any sense. Yeah, it 167 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: looks like they leveled everything to just where the retaining 168 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: wall was, right. 169 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: They removed a ton of land or there is significant 170 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: erosion that had occurred, and now they're having to address 171 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 2: that and lowering stuff. But at least the position of 172 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 2: the officer posing as the victim. The way that he's 173 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 2: leaning up against the retaining wall. He's not bent at 174 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: the waist, he's bent at the neck, and so this 175 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: is an interesting position for somebody to voluntarily get into. 176 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 2: It be very uncomfortable, versus just sitting down and using 177 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 2: the retaining wall to support your back as you're sitting normally. 178 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 2: This is more akin to laying down and using the 179 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 2: retaining wall to prop your head up. 180 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me tell you some more details here. Police, 181 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: of course, are searching this man and they're trying to 182 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: get information based on the things that they find on 183 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: his clothing. What is he wearing, and this is where 184 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: the victimology begins. So they're making some notes here. One 185 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: is that he's very well dressed in an expensive and 186 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: fashionable suit that looks like would have been an American 187 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: tailor would have made, not Australian necessarily. And let's get 188 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: this part of the way. He's unidentified, so there is 189 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: no identification on him. They have no idea who this 190 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: person is. The people and the police who have reported 191 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: to the scene don't recognize him. So this is a 192 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: mystery man. He has white shirt on, he has a 193 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: nice tie, brown pants, socks, and shoes. So this is 194 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: what's interesting. He has a half smoked cigarette tucked into 195 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: the collar of his jacket, as if it had fallen 196 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: out of his mouth while it was lit. Okay, I mean, 197 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: what does that mean He's sitting there and he dies 198 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: or someone kills him in the middle of him smoking 199 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: the cigarette. 200 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 2: Well, you know, based on the witness descriptions, the man 201 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 2: appears to be you know, he's leaning up against this 202 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: retaining wall in that weird position, and that couple sees 203 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: him raises his arms up, so he's still at that 204 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: point capable of doing voluntary acts. But his position suggests, 205 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: you know, like they said, they thought possibly he was drunk. 206 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: You know, he's possibly in the process of losing consciousness 207 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 2: over the course of time. And if he did have 208 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 2: a cigarette in his mouth, then yes, you know, that 209 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 2: would be something that would just naturally drop. And it 210 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 2: sounds like the caller area would be a location where 211 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 2: the cigarette but would would come to rest. But I 212 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: wouldn't make that assumption. You know, that's one possibility. But 213 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 2: is this from somebody who interacted with him. You know, 214 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 2: right now, I don't know anything about was there any 215 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 2: violence done to this man? If he was a victim 216 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 2: of homicide. Could the offender have inadvertently dropped a cigarette? 217 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: You have a lot of people that are kind of 218 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 2: crowding around him, going, hey, are you okay? You know 219 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: the next morning, you know, could the cigarette but be 220 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: contamination from you know, the witnesses that are approaching the body. 221 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: So there's a multitude of possibilities right there. But good 222 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 2: thing that they noted it could be valuable evidence. 223 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: So you are an investigator in this area, you report 224 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: to this and you look at him fully clothed, and 225 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: just see that there is no evidence of trauma. We 226 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: don't see an obvious gunshot, wound, stabbing, no blood, no bruising, 227 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: no defense, nothing. This is just somebody who looked like 228 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: he died naturally on the beach. And we'll get more 229 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: details on that. But just as an investigator who shows 230 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: up there, you are just seeing someone who could have 231 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: died from alcohol poisoning from all you know, sitting on 232 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: the beach. 233 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: And that's where it becomes important for early investigators to 234 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: start noting what they can about the victim. Here we 235 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: have temporal information. We have witnesses that are seeing him 236 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: make what appears to be a voluntary movement of his 237 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 2: arms the night before, so they can put a time 238 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 2: stamp on that the man was there at least by 239 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: that time. Now, is there obvious signs of death? And 240 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: what are those signs? Is there some lividity? Is he 241 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 2: cool to the touch? Start noting that, because that will 242 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: give some more information in terms of how long he 243 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: sat in the position until he passed away. And then 244 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 2: it's moving the body, is their rigor present and what's 245 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 2: behind the body. So there's a lot of stuff that 246 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 2: needs to be noted early on just to start getting 247 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: a better sense of how quickly he died or how 248 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 2: long he stayed alive. After that initial couple saw him. 249 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: Well, a doctor hasn't arrived yet, but the investigators while 250 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: they're there are searching his body feverishly to try to 251 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: find information. They find a couple of different tickets on him. 252 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: There's a rail ticket that was not used that would 253 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: have taken him from the area where he was found 254 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: to a place called Henley Beach. They have no idea 255 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: what the significance is. There's a bus ticket that seemed 256 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: to have taken him from a bus station to where 257 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: he was and there are two hair combs, including an 258 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: aluminum comb that looks like it might have been manufactured 259 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: in the United States. So you see where this is going. 260 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: They're seeing a lot of things that are seemingly from 261 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: America on this man. 262 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 2: So you had mentioned that his suit, the way it 263 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: was tailored was more in the style of the United 264 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: States tailors versus Australian. 265 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: Okay, correct. So we have a half empty pack of 266 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: juicy fruit gum. There's an Army Club cigarette packet that 267 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: has been restocked with cigarettes that are a more expensive brand, 268 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: and this is the reverse of what usually happens. Usually 269 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: you have a very expensive package and people just keep 270 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: resupplying it with very cheap cigarettes so they can look like, 271 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: you know, they have more money. So my first thought was, 272 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: I wonder if he's doing that to hide wealth because 273 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: he's wearing a nice suit. I'm not sure what the 274 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: motivation would be from this man. Maybe because people ask 275 00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: him for a cigarette. I know that was very co 276 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: and maybe he thought, well, you know, I don't want 277 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: people to know that I smoke expensive cigarettes because I 278 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: don't want to give him away. 279 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: Sure, you know, but there's also just maybe an everyday 280 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: life scenario where the cigarette package for the expensive cigarettes 281 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 2: just kind of deteriorated on him for whatever reason. He 282 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: tore it open weird and it was like, well, I 283 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 2: need something to hold onto these cigarettes and grabbed another 284 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 2: cigarette packet just to be able to do it without 285 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: any intent of trying to disguise the types of cigarettes 286 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: he had access to. 287 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: Definitely a possibility. So let me tell you what the 288 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: results are of the autopsy. I usually tell you this 289 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: a little bit later, but I think this is all 290 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: important and this really does help with a victimology. So 291 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: when the doctor examines this man who's been nicknamed in 292 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: the meantime the Summerton Man, which I guess is better 293 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: than John Doe, the doctor looks at him and decides 294 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: that he died around two am on the next morning 295 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: when the two couples spotted him. So they spotted him 296 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: at seven to fifteen pm and seven thirty pm, and 297 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: then no one else reported walking by him at that point. 298 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: It looks like he died around two am. They think 299 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: he's about forty five years old. As I said before, 300 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: there's no cuts or bruises or wounds anything on the 301 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: outside of his body. So when they strip him down, 302 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: that's the case. There's no external damage. From what anybody 303 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: could see, he appears to be in very very good shape. 304 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: He's got very muscular thighs, and many of the authorities, 305 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: an onlooker said that he actually looks like a ballet dancer. 306 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: So he must have really had some definition, I suppose, 307 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: because they're really trying to figure out the best way 308 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: to describe him, because this becomes a big mystery. So 309 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: does that seem significant or helpful? This feels along the 310 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: lines of the very Small Feet case that you and 311 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: I talked about earlier in the season. 312 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 2: Well there's you know, we're talking about a case in 313 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 2: nineteen forty eight. You know, they're so limited in terms 314 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 2: of their techniques to identify somebody, and they would have 315 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 2: to rely on the public. So any type of characteristic 316 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: of this victim that would stand out to the general 317 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 2: person would be something that they would want to record 318 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 2: and put out there to see if somebody goes, oh, 319 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 2: I remember this guy with you know, he had very 320 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 2: muscular legs. You know, he's a bicyclist or a ballet dancer. 321 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: You know something along those lines. So sure that that's interesting, 322 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 2: but it's also you know, telling that, Okay, here's somebody 323 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 2: that is physically active. Of course, there's genetics that play 324 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: a part in terms of, you know, how muscular a 325 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 2: man is naturally, but likely is physically active to support 326 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 2: this part of his physique. Additionally, it seems like, and 327 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 2: I haven't heard the rest of the autopsy, but it 328 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 2: doesn't sound like somebody who has any type of natural 329 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: condition that would cause him to have premature death. 330 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: No, not so far. They look at the heart. The 331 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: heart looks like that of a forty five year old 332 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: man in perfect physical health. Great physical health actually is 333 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: the quote. But there are problems with other parts of 334 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 1: his body. So this is where I really need your help, 335 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: and I'll read this exactly. The doctor said. There are 336 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: clear signs of congestion in the man's brain, liver, fair nix, kidneys, stomach, 337 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: and spleen. They said that his spleen is about three 338 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: times its normal size and there's a large amount of 339 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: blood in his heavily congested stomach. Oh what is that? 340 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 2: It sounds like there could have been a disease state 341 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: to cause by a virus as well as potential poisoning. 342 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: Poisoning would cause all of that blood in the stomach. 343 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: You're on the right track, I think, but I'm asking legitimately. 344 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: I did not know that poisoning would cause something. 345 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 2: Like that, you know. I think it depends on you 346 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 2: know what the poison is, of course, but it would 347 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: be something that the doctor is noting, and there may 348 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 2: be select poisons, and I'm thinking this sounds along the 349 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 2: lines more of like your metal type poisoning. Okay, And 350 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 2: of course you know there's all sorts. I mean, he's 351 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: got multi systems that are being impacted that contributed to 352 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 2: his death. So that's where Okay, which which poisons would 353 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 2: cause this type of systemic shutdown of his organs with 354 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: these physical characteristics the congestion, the blood and the stomach. 355 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: Let me show you photos of him and you can 356 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: tell me. I don't know if you're going to be 357 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: able to get much information off of these, but it's 358 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: at least good for you to see because I don't 359 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: often have photos of the deceased. So here is. There's 360 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: two of them, and these are both photos that have 361 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: been circulated for decades all over the media. 362 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 2: Okay, So obviously these are These are photos after you 363 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 2: know he's been transported, likely in the morgue. The first 364 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 2: photo is like a profile or portrait photo for identification purposes, 365 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 2: showing his face straight on or near straight on, wearing 366 00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 2: the shirt, and he has a tie on and the 367 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: tighest all secure around his neck. You know, I'm looking 368 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 2: at this photo, and at least with the quality of 369 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: the photo, it's a black and white photo. I'm not 370 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 2: seeing any type of positional lividity going on in his 371 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 2: face or bruising lacerations. He literally looks like he's laying 372 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: there with his eyes half open. And then the lower 373 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: photo is a profile photo from his right side. I 374 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 2: don't see any anything that would indicate any type of 375 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 2: violence whatsoever. There might be a mark on his right 376 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 2: temple close to his right ear, but if his eyes 377 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 2: were shut, he would look like he's just sleeping. And 378 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 2: the shirt, you know, the shirt is important, right, you know, 379 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: I don't see all of the shirt. I just see 380 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: the upper front of the shirt, probably from chest height up, 381 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 2: and it's the photo crops his shoulders. But this is 382 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 2: a very light colored shirt. It looks white in this photo. 383 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 2: I don't see any staining on the shirt. The shirt 384 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 2: is in its proper anatomic position. You know, nothing appears 385 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 2: to be you know, really moved out of place, as 386 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 2: if he had been in a struggle or he had 387 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 2: been carried and deposited up against the retaining wall. Because 388 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: when you're carrying a body that's let's say, lifeless or unconscious, 389 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: you know, the shirt's going to get disheveled, buttons might 390 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 2: be popped out of their normal position. And at least 391 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 2: with what I can see, you know, this appears to 392 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 2: be somebody who likely you know, walked up to that 393 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 2: retaining wall and just laid down. 394 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: This is what makes the story so complicated. Okay, let's 395 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: go back to where we are with the investigation. So 396 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: the doctor is stimied and he says, I know there's 397 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: blood everywhere in you know, congested stomach, and his spleen 398 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: is three times its normal size. He could not figure 399 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,239 Speaker 1: out what this man died of, so he says that 400 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: he died of heart failure, even though his heart was 401 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: the best organ he had. Does that make any sense? 402 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: Or is that a throw your hands up? I don't 403 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: have anything else to say. This must be it. 404 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 2: Well, you know, everybody thinks about heart failure, like a 405 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 2: mio cardio infarction where there's a blockage that at autopsy 406 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 2: the pathologist would readily be able to find. But you 407 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: can also have electrical issues with your heart, and so 408 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: you get into like a ventricular fibrillation where the heart 409 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 2: is no longer effectively pumping, and this can cause death, 410 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 2: but is not going to be something that is readily 411 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 2: detectable because it's really just the electrical signal of the 412 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: heart gets screwed up. Okay, and there may be other 413 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 2: aspects that a pathologist would see that would be a 414 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 2: clue that it would be this issue, but it's going 415 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: to be a difficult thing to really detect at autopsy. 416 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 2: And so he's throwing a dart at the wall, going, well, 417 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: I'm not finding anything, but this is a possibility. Maybe 418 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: he did have, you know, one of these atrial ventricular 419 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 2: you know fibrillations where it's just like, oh, you know, 420 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: he just could no longer continue lay down against the 421 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 2: wall and then over time just died. 422 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: Well, the doctor i think says, essentially something is strange, 423 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: and so he put heart failure, but that he felt 424 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: like it was unnatural. Okay, So somebody caused this man's 425 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: heart to stop. He suspects what you said, a poisoning. 426 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: So they take blood samples and they send off the 427 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,239 Speaker 1: blood samples and it comes back and everybody's waiting to 428 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: get the results, and they say, we couldn't find anything. 429 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: There's no common poison. That's I think a key though, 430 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: no common poison. So they couldn't say definitively there's nothing happening. 431 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: They could not detect a specific Now what I didn't 432 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: know that I think you can tell me? Is it 433 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: right that you have to actually say I want to 434 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: test for this, okay, I want to annown test for this. Okay, 435 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: there's not like a catch all. Just come up with 436 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: any poison that is in this person's system. 437 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 2: Is there no? Even to this day, there isn't a 438 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 2: catch all process. Screening tests today can screen for certain 439 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: classes of drugs in one screening test, and oftentimes pathologists, 440 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 2: if they're not sure of what is the cause of death, 441 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: but they think it is a toxic substance, then they 442 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 2: will go after the most common screening test with the 443 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 2: hope that it narrows down onto a drug that was ingested. Now, 444 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: also the clinical fightings that autopsy are significant. The observation 445 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 2: of the congestion of the brain and the blood and 446 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: the stomach and everything else. The pathologist will be taking 447 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 2: a look at well which poisons can cause these symptoms 448 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 2: and then will request the lab to screen specifically for 449 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 2: those poisons. So it is possible that the pathologists didn't 450 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 2: ask for the right screening test. But we're also talking 451 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 2: nineteen forty eight. If you think about the improvement in 452 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 2: toxicology screening, this is in the decades where there were 453 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 2: advances being made and you're starting to see some instrumental 454 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 2: analysis being done. It's not just qualitative chemistry microcrystalin tests 455 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 2: as an example. They now are able to do additional 456 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: types of testing, but they weren't very sensitive. And when 457 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:43,239 Speaker 2: it comes to poisons, typically if unders utilize poisons in 458 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 2: which it doesn't require a lot of that poison to 459 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: kill somebody, and chances are there's a possibility they screened 460 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 2: for the right substance, but they couldn't detected because it 461 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 2: was too low in this man's system. 462 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: So I want to make sure I understand and just 463 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: where you stand right now, there is a chance that 464 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: this could have happened naturally, or this could have been 465 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: a poisoning. Is that right? Is it like a fifty 466 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: to fifty at this point based on what you know 467 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: about the congestion throughout the body and the blood. 468 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 2: No, you know, I think that when I was talking 469 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 2: about the you know, let's say it was an electrical 470 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: issue with the heart, that was kind of an isolated 471 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 2: thought related to the pathologist attributing the cause of death 472 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 2: to heart failure but not finding cardiovascular disease. Yeah, but 473 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 2: taken the totality of the findings that autopsy, this does 474 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 2: seem to be okay. There is something that is systemic 475 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: in this man's system. Now, poisoning is one thing. We 476 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 2: know that there's viruses that can cause significant organ damage, 477 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 2: you know, And is there something weird like that going on? 478 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 2: You know, And this man just happened to, you know, 479 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 2: succumb to this virus while he was on the beach. 480 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 2: But generally those diseases take time to develop and the 481 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: person is feeling ill. So the likelihood of him just 482 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: out wandering around in a suit with all the stuff 483 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: on while he's sick seems unlikely, you know. It seems 484 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: more likely that he has a poison and now it's 485 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 2: hitting him while he's in this area. 486 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: Well, that's what investigators think. They think that he has 487 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: been killed by some sort of undetectable or fast acting 488 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 1: poison that didn't show up in the test, just like 489 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: you said. And the kind of enduring mystery around this 490 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: man in identifying him has often come back to the 491 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: idea that he was a spy and that there's some 492 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: reasons why people think that that I'll tell you in 493 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: just a little bit. I think it's the way he's dressed. 494 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: He doesn't fit in the way that he has found, 495 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: the mystery around the way he has found. And also 496 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: keep in mind this is just a few years after 497 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,239 Speaker 1: World War Two and the Cold War is coming, so 498 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: there were spy stories all over the place. This does 499 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: not help the situation at all with the police. They 500 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: are trying to figure out what is going on, and 501 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: they latch onto the idea that he had this bus ticket, 502 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 1: and they go to the station where he would have 503 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: arrived on the bus and they find, after looking a 504 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: very long time and talking to the porters, there an 505 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: unclaimed suitcase that has been checked on November thirtieth, and 506 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: they look inside and they find things that they think 507 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: connect this suitcase to their John Doe and the things 508 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: inside are so odd, and I have a photo of 509 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: the contents. But again back to victimology. Here, there was 510 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: some supplies for stenciling that would have been common for 511 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: somebody who was in the US Navy, which they thought 512 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: was very confusing. There were articles of clothing that the 513 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: tags and the labels had been cut out, which wouldn't 514 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: have been uncommon because in rationing with World War Two, 515 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: people were buying second hand clothes all the time and 516 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: cutting the names out. But there are three shirts with 517 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: a name T Keen so tea period Keen handwritten inside, 518 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: and they are looking desperately for T. King and they 519 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: can't find Tea Keen at all. So they are getting 520 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: these clues that become more and more sort of the 521 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: funneling to the police. They start doing a little bit 522 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: of profiling just based on his face. They think he 523 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: looks European. They don't think he looks Australian or American 524 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: in that way. I'm not quite sure what they think 525 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: are the features that would make him more European than 526 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: anything else. That seems like a dangerous prospect. 527 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 2: No, yeah, you know, and when you first showed me 528 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 2: the photos of his face. My initial thought is he 529 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: looked older than forty five, but we're also talking about 530 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: an era where people weren't wearing sun protection at all. Ever, 531 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 2: you also, yeah, prematurely aging. Now this the suitcase is 532 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 2: is there anything about the suitcase that also suggests that 533 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 2: it originated out of the United States? 534 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: That is about it? The US Navy stenciling, and they 535 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: never find a good answer for that. But let me 536 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: show you the suitcase real quick and the contents inside 537 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: the suitcase. So you could see the suitcase. Oh, it's big, 538 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of odd items. There's some more 539 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: in there. There's a shoeshine, it looks like like shoe 540 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: shine wax. There a lot of different items, but an 541 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: odd assortment. What's your impression of, you know, some of 542 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: the things that are found in here? 543 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 2: Well, you know this this photo is showing the suitcase 544 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 2: in the backdrop. It almost to me looks like a 545 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 2: very large briefcase. Yeah, it's got the two latches, it's 546 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 2: got a handle, it has what appears to be an 547 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 2: evidence take, and then a. 548 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: Pile of sorted tools. 549 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 2: Almost, yes, there's there's tools. There's the Kiwi brand shoe polish, 550 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 2: which I didn't realize key has been around that long. 551 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 2: I've used that many times on my work shoes over 552 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 2: the ears. Odd pieces of fabric like in strips, you know, 553 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: a little green container. It almost looks like one of 554 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: these travel soap containers plastic containers that is clamshell like. 555 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 2: But yeah, I would want to be able to sit 556 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: down and really study, you know, everything that's in here, 557 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 2: so I could get a better sense. Because I'm most 558 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 2: of the stuff. I'm not even able to identify the 559 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 2: way that it's piled up. All the various tools that 560 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 2: wooden handled tools, etc. I don't know what those are. 561 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 562 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: I also see a toothbrush or appears to be a 563 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 2: rectangular case that's close on the left hand side, that's 564 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 2: closest to the briefcases. Black rectangular case that looks like 565 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 2: about the size of a case that would contain like 566 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 2: a straight razor, you know the old fashioned razors that 567 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: one would would use. But it is an odd assortment. 568 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: Now outside of this was at the station where the 569 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 2: victim had a bus ticket too. Do they have anything 570 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 2: else that conclusively ties the suitcase to the victim. 571 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: There is a unique waxy thread that was found on 572 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: his clothing. And this type of thread, which I'm not 573 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: one hundred percent sure what it was used for, is 574 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: also found in this case. And also it went unclaimed 575 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: on the same day that his ticket says he arrived 576 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: in Somerton. So they're making the assumption. I think that 577 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: the ties match, like it all seems to kind of 578 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: come together, and they're just making an assumption that this 579 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: belongs to him. I guess this waxy thread was very unusual. 580 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: Okay. You know, of course, today, like I see a 581 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 2: spoon that was in the side this suitcase, you know, 582 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 2: i'd be pursuing DNA testing to see if the victims 583 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 2: DNA was on these objects. 584 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: Toothbrush would be great. 585 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 2: Toothbrushes are hit or miss believe it or not, but yes, 586 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 2: that's another source of potential DNA. And just for confidence 587 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: that the suitcase and the objects in there are positively 588 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 2: tied to the victim, So I know, any leads that 589 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 2: develop from these objects, I have confidence that it's something 590 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 2: that's connected versus I'm just chasing down the lead that 591 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: has no bearing on the victim whatsoever. 592 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: They are saying, the police are saying, we are sure 593 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: that this belongs to him, and I can tell you 594 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: now knowing all the information, this belongs to him, So 595 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: you can make assumptions however you want based on the material, 596 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: knowing that this is his suitcase, this man. We don't 597 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: know who the man is yet, So. 598 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: Okay, Kate, just telling me the suitcase is conclusively tied 599 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: to the victim, and therefore it must be tied to 600 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 2: the victim. 601 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: There, this is of faith with me, paulse trust me. 602 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: This is the suitcase. 603 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 2: I know. 604 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: I throw red herrings at you sometimes this is the 605 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: real deal. 606 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: This is the trauma you've done to me over there, 607 00:33:50,680 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 2: over this past season trauma. 608 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: So they do something that I think is always interesting. 609 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: They make a plaster bust of the man's facial features, 610 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: because of course they're trying to figure out who this 611 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: person is. I've always found this fascinating. I've seen there 612 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: are death masks, and they're also live what they call 613 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 1: live masks. The people I write about, Edward, rule Off, Burke, 614 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: and Hare have all had this done to them. So 615 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: this was used for identification. And here is his plaster 616 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: of Paris mask, and it looks like they did the 617 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: majority of his body. And of course they did it 618 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: directly on his body. So this is something that they 619 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: distributed throughout the media to try to identify this man 620 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: and frankly to calm people down who thought that there 621 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: was a spy in this area of Australia and what 622 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 1: is going on. 623 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I am perplexed on why they even 624 00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,760 Speaker 2: bothered to do this. He was in such good condition. 625 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 2: Those photos of him, from my perspective, are so much 626 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 2: better to put out there to the public to identify 627 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 2: than this, unless they're concerned about the fact that he's 628 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 2: dead in those photos. 629 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: I know that doesn't offend you, but believe it or not, 630 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: it would offend those people, especially in the nineteen forties. 631 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 2: You know, an artist, though, could exactly replicate his face 632 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: based on those photos to go in there, versus doing 633 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 2: this entire casting process. That's a lot of effort now 634 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 2: and I'm not sure it gives you anything, you know, 635 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 2: even though if you rotate this three dimensional bust, you know, 636 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 2: of course we see the world in three dimensions, so 637 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 2: being able to see this bust from different angles might 638 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 2: trigger somebody say, oh, I saw that man here, I 639 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 2: know who that man is, versus looking at a two 640 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 2: dimensional photo. But they're doing this and distributing it to 641 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 2: the public, and so they're making it two dimensional. 642 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's odd. I mean, it's not helpful. It doesn't 643 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: seem like. 644 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 2: I'm kind of curious how it could be. 645 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: But okay, So in nineteen forty nine, he's buried, and 646 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: remember he was discovered in nineteen forty eight at the 647 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: end of the year. So he's buried, and a few 648 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: weeks into the investigation, there is a clue that pops up. Inexplicably, 649 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: they miss something on his body in the pants, and 650 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: they find it several weeks later. Which I hate to 651 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: be hard on investigators in the nineteen forties, but I'm 652 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: not sure how they would have missed this. So there 653 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: is a fob pocket. Do you know what a fob 654 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: pocket is? 655 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 2: No, but I'm sure you're going to tell me. 656 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: I actually knew before this story because my dad used 657 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: to have pants that had this. It's a tiny, tiny 658 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: little pocket that you used to hold a pocket watch 659 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: and it's on your pants and you've seen them, you 660 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,720 Speaker 1: just didn't know they were called a fob pocket. 661 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 2: Okay, that is correct. 662 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: So inside the pocket they had missed this. This is 663 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks later, there is a piece of 664 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: paper folded up inside the pocket and it says, and 665 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to go slowly with all of these translations. 666 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 1: It says to mom shooed, which is printed. It's not handwritten. 667 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: It's something that's been taken out of a book. And 668 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: detectives learn that this phrase tomm shoed is Farsi and 669 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: it means it is ended, or it is finished or finished. 670 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: And it's been ripped from the last page of a 671 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: fairly popular book called the Rubaiyat of Omar Kayam. And 672 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: I know I butchered that. I'm sorry. It's a book 673 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: of poems that were published in the eleventh century exploring 674 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,280 Speaker 1: death and the afterlife. And this was during the nineteen 675 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: forties a popular book. So this was not unusual. It 676 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: was odd that this one section that is translated to 677 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,760 Speaker 1: say it is finished is put in this dead man's pocket. 678 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: Either he did it or somebody else did it as 679 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: what like a sign or a message. 680 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that is bizarre. 681 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: And it gets worse. This gets way worse. There's all 682 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: kinds of weird things about this. Just so you know, 683 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: I don't want you to relax very much because there 684 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: are weirder things with this story. 685 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,439 Speaker 2: Well, you know, of course this is an important piece 686 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 2: of evidence, but at the same time, is it related 687 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 2: to his death? That is part of the complexity in 688 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 2: many of these who've done It cases is oftentimes, you know, 689 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 2: people are just living their normal lives and there's an 690 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 2: innocent explanation for the types of like indisha that's found 691 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 2: in their pockets, but sometimes it can be overinterpreted as 692 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 2: being related to his death. This farcy phrase is suspicious. 693 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 2: You know that it's in his pocket and he dies. 694 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 2: It's odd. It's something that I have to pay attention to. 695 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 2: But also, now if we are in this realm of 696 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 2: spy versus spy, you know, is there invisible writing on 697 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 2: this you know, is there indented writing? Is there something 698 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 2: there that it has more information and that this was 699 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 2: just a way to disguise the buried or hid an 700 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 2: information on this piece of paper. 701 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, Well, I have more confusing information. So I'm 702 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: going to try to go slowly and don't say anything 703 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: until I finish, because it's quite a little trail we 704 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: have to go down. 705 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 2: You're shutting me up. 706 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,720 Speaker 1: Then I need you to be quiet for just because 707 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: I know you're gonna ask questions, and then when I 708 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,760 Speaker 1: say nothing could be determined, then you could start talking 709 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: about that, yes, ma'am. Okay. So a little while later 710 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: after they start circulating this information to the public, someone 711 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: comes forward and it's a man who says that he 712 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: was completely freaked out because his car was parked with 713 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: the windows down very close to where this man was 714 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: found on Summrton Beach. Man man who owned the car 715 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,919 Speaker 1: went out for swim, his windows were down. He came 716 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: back and there was a copy of that book, a 717 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: rare copy of that nineteen forty one book, the Rubayot, 718 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: And they look and of course that little page is 719 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: missing with that phrase. They look at the book and 720 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: they say, this is obviously the book he said, I 721 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: don't own this book. Someone obviously threw it into the 722 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: back of my car. He's cleared before you even ask. 723 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: He's been cleared. He's not involved with this. And they 724 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: look at the book and they see the strip of 725 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: papers gone, so this is obviously a match to them. 726 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 1: Then they find a phone number scrawled on the book's 727 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 1: back cover, as well as something that looks like a code. 728 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: And this is why people are freaked out. About this 729 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: story and still kind of are when you get more information. 730 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: Is it looks like there's a secret code the FBI 731 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: Scotland Yard. Everyone you could think of is trying to 732 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: break this code. And I have a photo of the code. 733 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: So now we really are in spy versus spy, but 734 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: they can't determine what it means. 735 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:08,840 Speaker 2: Now you can talk, Oh, this is fascinating. So I 736 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 2: think there's two perspectives to look at this. The victim 737 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 2: himself was carrying this book and the message in the 738 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,439 Speaker 2: book is what's important. And he recognized that he had 739 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 2: been poisoned he was going to die, so he secreted 740 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 2: this book near where he died, and it just so 741 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,320 Speaker 2: happened that there was this car here with open windows, 742 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 2: and then he had torn that piece of paper to 743 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,479 Speaker 2: be a clue to whoever discovered his body to look 744 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 2: for that book, and of course the owner of the 745 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 2: car comes forward and is able to put two and 746 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 2: two together on that front. Or the other perspective is 747 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 2: is that whoever poisoned this man and I'm assuming that 748 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 2: that is what the investigation. The investigators feel happened to 749 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 2: the victim, is that they're the ones that in essence 750 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 2: through this book into this car and either placed this 751 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 2: piece of paper in his pocket and this was a 752 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 2: this was a message to somebody, whatever that message is. 753 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 2: But they wanted that connection between the victim and that book. 754 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,760 Speaker 2: But why not just leave the book by the body? 755 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 2: It is odd, but I think you have to look 756 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 2: at it from both perspectives. Either the victim did it 757 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 2: or an offender did it. 758 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,320 Speaker 1: And really that's the question we're drilling down to. I 759 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: think we can rule out an accident doesn't seem like 760 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,800 Speaker 1: an accident. I think probably we can rule out natural causes, 761 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: although I know you believe that it could be a virus, 762 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: but things get weirder and weirder. 763 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and at this point, with the context 764 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,800 Speaker 2: of the case, the victimology, everything else, I'm ruling out, 765 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 2: you know, some disease state caused all the systemic I 766 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:55,320 Speaker 2: do think that some external toxin did this. And I'm 767 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 2: running through certain things in my head, and I'm wondering, 768 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 2: did they ever test the cigarettes or a toxin. 769 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: No, that would have been smart. I don't think they did. 770 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: I don't think they did. I think they were just 771 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,239 Speaker 1: looking at the blood and you know, any of the 772 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: organs or anything. I'm going to show you right now, 773 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,760 Speaker 1: though the code, which we don't know is a code, 774 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: but the FBI and Scotland Yards certainly are trying to 775 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: work on it, and they are coming up empty with 776 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: this code. And they just said, this just doesn't look 777 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: like anything we've ever seen. And this has been examined 778 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: for decades, and current code breakers say, this doesn't look 779 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 1: like anything we've ever seen, and it might not be anything. 780 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 2: Right, you know. And of course the code everything that 781 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 2: I'm seeing in this code, it's one, two, three, four. 782 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 2: You've got five lines of what appear all to be 783 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 2: uppercase English letters. Obviously it's not a simple substitution cipher, 784 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 2: otherwise it would have been cracked very quickly. What I 785 00:43:55,320 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 2: do know, just with the Zodiac cipher is that the 786 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,760 Speaker 2: Zodiac ciphers that have been able to be recently cracked 787 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:09,280 Speaker 2: using modern computer algorithms and individuals that are high level 788 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 2: experts when it comes to cryptology, is that you do 789 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 2: need to have a fair amount of the code in 790 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,800 Speaker 2: order to be able to crack it. And I'm looking 791 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 2: at this and each line is roughly eight or nine 792 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 2: letters long. You hope that they're utilizing the same code throughout, 793 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 2: you know, for each line, but each line by itself 794 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 2: is about the same length of the Zodiac cipher that 795 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,240 Speaker 2: to this day they have not been able to crack 796 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,879 Speaker 2: because it's too short. And so I'm wondering if that's 797 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,319 Speaker 2: the issue here, and this is where getting some of 798 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,840 Speaker 2: these high end cryptology experts on this today. It'd be 799 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 2: fascinating to see if they could do something with this code. 800 00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 2: I'm assuming you're going to tell me they've done modern 801 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 2: work on this or they have, say, and it's still 802 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:03,240 Speaker 2: a mystery. 803 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: Okay, it's a mystery. It's a big mystery. 804 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 2: Well, one other point that I just want to make though, 805 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 2: as you think about World War Two, you know, the 806 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 2: Germans were using the Enigma machine, you know, and this 807 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 2: was a very complex cipher that the Allies weren't able 808 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 2: to crack until they cut their hands on this machine. 809 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 2: You know. So even back during this era, you know, 810 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 2: there was sophisticated cipher techniques that probably without having the key, 811 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:38,960 Speaker 2: you know, modern instrumentation, modern computers, likely would not be 812 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:39,720 Speaker 2: able to crack. 813 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: It is so confusing and throws the investigation into a 814 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 1: tailspin because once this gets out in the media. You 815 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 1: can imagine the fear that this causes a spy and 816 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 1: who's out there and can we trust anybody? And it 817 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,800 Speaker 1: really was sort of fear mongering in a way. Okay, 818 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: so let's move through here again. We've got this book 819 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: with the page gone, We've got this bizarre code that 820 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: we don't even know if it's a code or not, 821 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,879 Speaker 1: and we have a phone number. So the investigators want 822 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,319 Speaker 1: to know whose phone this is, and they track it 823 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,919 Speaker 1: down to a twenty seven year old nurse, a woman 824 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,399 Speaker 1: named Joe Thompson, and she's about five minutes from where 825 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 1: the Somerton man's body was discovered. They go to her house. 826 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: She says, I don't want to talk to you. She says, 827 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,759 Speaker 1: I don't know who this guy is. I don't know 828 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 1: why he has my phone number. I don't know how 829 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,800 Speaker 1: that book ended up in the car. But she says 830 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,840 Speaker 1: she does know the book, but so did everybody. This 831 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,640 Speaker 1: was a very popular book in the nineteen forties. She 832 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: said she had given a nineteen forty five copy to 833 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:47,239 Speaker 1: an army officer named Alf Boxel, and she says, you know, 834 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,239 Speaker 1: maybe he has something to do with this. He was 835 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:55,320 Speaker 1: rumored to be in the Army's intelligence unit. So now 836 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 1: when the media gets a hold of this, this becomes 837 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,840 Speaker 1: a very big story. She's also a little ner because 838 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 1: a man has been poking around her house and you know, 839 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,960 Speaker 1: nothing has happened, but people have seen this strange man 840 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,000 Speaker 1: kind of in and around the outside of her house. 841 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: So she's alarmed and this is of course even more 842 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,719 Speaker 1: intriguing to the public. So the police eventually try to 843 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,479 Speaker 1: track down alf Bauxel. He is not the man who 844 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,080 Speaker 1: was found on the beach. He is alive, and they 845 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,280 Speaker 1: are at a dead end yet again because we cannot 846 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 1: identify this man still. And you know, it's been a 847 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: year or two so far while the police are working 848 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: this case. 849 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you mentioned that Boxell was Army intelligence. Is 850 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 2: that Australian Army intelligence. 851 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so non American as we were talking about, So 852 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,280 Speaker 1: we haven't found any real indicator of his nationality. 853 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. So this this woman, I imagine they must have done 854 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 2: a fairly significant background check on her. Do you know 855 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,160 Speaker 2: what her occupation was? 856 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 1: Was a nurse and just didn't want to talk to 857 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: the police. They showed her the plaster bust of the man. 858 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: She had a very strong reaction. They said, she seemed 859 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:14,840 Speaker 1: fearful and nervous and she almost fainted, and they think 860 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 1: that she knew the man, but she says, I don't 861 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: recognize him. I have no idea who this person is. 862 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,040 Speaker 1: But again, you know, the only connection we have is 863 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,080 Speaker 1: alf Boxel, who's alive and says, I don't know anything 864 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:27,839 Speaker 1: about this case. And that's it. 865 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, she most certainly could be a participant 866 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 2: in some sort of intelligence activity and hiding that fact. 867 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 2: This is local law enforcement that's hitting her up. You know, 868 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,400 Speaker 2: she's working let's say for Australian Intelligence or maybe some 869 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,480 Speaker 2: other you know, government. She's not going to say, oh, 870 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 2: you know, yeah, she's probably having to stay silent for 871 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,640 Speaker 2: national security concerns or whatever operation is going on. But 872 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 2: there's also this phone number. Let's say, let's make an 873 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,400 Speaker 2: assumption that she is not a participant in any of 874 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,000 Speaker 2: this type of activity related to the crime. That phone 875 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,359 Speaker 2: number may have just been provided to the victim in 876 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:10,520 Speaker 2: order to call that phone to gain access to that property. 877 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 2: Hey you know, I'm blah blah blah, whatever the ruse 878 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,440 Speaker 2: would be, because there's something on that property that the 879 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:18,880 Speaker 2: victim needed to obtain. 880 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,480 Speaker 1: And you know, if this man had been murdered, and 881 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: this was the killer's book. Not the man's book, but 882 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 1: the killer's book. You know, she might not have any 883 00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: idea who this person is. He could know her, or 884 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,919 Speaker 1: she could not suspect that somebody in her life would 885 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,360 Speaker 1: have done this. There's just a host of possibilities. But 886 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,800 Speaker 1: Alf produces the book that Joe had given him and 887 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,359 Speaker 1: there's no page ripped out, and there's nothing. I mean, 888 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,279 Speaker 1: this is the book. Her story is checking out. She 889 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,440 Speaker 1: has freaked out, though, and she says to the police, 890 00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 1: please do not release my name. I don't need to 891 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 1: be involved with any of this. I'm worried about my family, 892 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,960 Speaker 1: and I'm worried about my young son and the impact 893 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,320 Speaker 1: that it's going to have on him. So I would 894 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,279 Speaker 1: expect that you've heard that a lot. I mean, are 895 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: there people who are just desperate to stay out of this, 896 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,239 Speaker 1: and not even out of fear for their life, but 897 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 1: just scared a death of media attention in general? I mean, 898 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,400 Speaker 1: not everybody's out there ragging that they've been involved or 899 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,720 Speaker 1: a witness or anything in a crime. 900 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,520 Speaker 2: Now, this is common, you know, in terms of witnesses 901 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:27,120 Speaker 2: who do not want any attention whatsoever. They'll request. I 902 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,480 Speaker 2: don't want my name in the case file. I don't 903 00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:31,920 Speaker 2: want to be called to court at all. Sorts of 904 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,320 Speaker 2: different reasons why. You know, some of them are involved 905 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,520 Speaker 2: in their own criminal activity. They don't want that exposed. 906 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,440 Speaker 2: Sometimes they're a witness because they're visiting somebody they shouldn't 907 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,200 Speaker 2: and they happen to be you know, talk to and 908 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 2: they're like, my significant other will find out, you know 909 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,960 Speaker 2: that I was over here. Yeah, there's so many different 910 00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,399 Speaker 2: reasons why people do not want to be a part 911 00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:59,200 Speaker 2: of this. So it's not surprising that this nurse is 912 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,480 Speaker 2: not wanting to be a participant in the investigation. That 913 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:05,719 Speaker 2: doesn't put up any red flags. And you think if 914 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,120 Speaker 2: she says, yeah, there's been some man that's been poking 915 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,680 Speaker 2: around my house. Now you know she knows that there's 916 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,479 Speaker 2: a dead guy that had access to her phone number, 917 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 2: you could see, well, what's going to happen to me? Yeah, 918 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,960 Speaker 2: you know, I can see where there'd be genuine fear. 919 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, she was very afraid. She did not want to 920 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,680 Speaker 1: be identified. And as the police continue to try to 921 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,759 Speaker 1: work this case, there are fewer and fewer leads, and 922 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,799 Speaker 1: eventually it goes cold. And it is dormant for decades 923 00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:38,440 Speaker 1: and decades until we have a superhero in this case. 924 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,560 Speaker 1: And I love the superheroes, and we like to brag 925 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,920 Speaker 1: about them because these are people who come forward with resources, 926 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,640 Speaker 1: who care about this story. There is an engineering professor 927 00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,560 Speaker 1: at the University of Adelaide and he decides to take 928 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:59,239 Speaker 1: up this case. Fifty years later, he said, I think 929 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,960 Speaker 1: we can figure out out what happened in this case. 930 00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,040 Speaker 1: So this is quite a journey. We have come out 931 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,560 Speaker 1: of the nineteen forties and are now into the early 932 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,520 Speaker 1: two thousands. When Derek Abbott takes this case, he reads 933 00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,200 Speaker 1: about it in an article. He's from the area, he 934 00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,440 Speaker 1: lives in this area, and he's instantly sucked in and 935 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 1: he says, maybe we can figure this out. So he 936 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,600 Speaker 1: zeroes in on the phone number found on the back 937 00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,720 Speaker 1: of that book. And they had not identified Joe. Remember 938 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,720 Speaker 1: she told the police absolutely not. The media never figured 939 00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,120 Speaker 1: out who she was. So remember this is the two thousands. 940 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 1: So Professor Abbott takes these old phone books and looks 941 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,960 Speaker 1: and it takes him forever weeks to look at each number, 942 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:47,160 Speaker 1: and he finally finds Joe, and he finds out who 943 00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,719 Speaker 1: she is. One, and I don't know how you feel 944 00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,080 Speaker 1: about this. He really was focused on Joe Thompson and saying, 945 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,719 Speaker 1: there's no way this is a coincidence. She had to 946 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,279 Speaker 1: have been connected to this case. So this is what 947 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,320 Speaker 1: he does, and this is a big leap. He says, 948 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,760 Speaker 1: I wonder if she's connected because of her son, because 949 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:10,160 Speaker 1: it's not clear who Robin the son, who Robin's father was, 950 00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: and Robin the boy would have been a baby when 951 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,239 Speaker 1: this happened. And that year he finds out that Joe 952 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,000 Speaker 1: had been living with a long term partner who she 953 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:24,840 Speaker 1: later married, but she had been pregnant before they got together, 954 00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:30,080 Speaker 1: so Joe's husband was not Robin's biological father. So this 955 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,120 Speaker 1: is a big leap of faith that turns out to 956 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,120 Speaker 1: be pretty interesting. I mean, is that just guessing and 957 00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:39,160 Speaker 1: going on a whim or I mean, does this seem 958 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,960 Speaker 1: logical to you? She has to be involved, doesn't she? 959 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,840 Speaker 2: I want to say she has to be involved. I 960 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,680 Speaker 2: think it's just a consideration. It's just, you know, it's 961 00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,319 Speaker 2: a lead. You have to follow the lead to the end. 962 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,920 Speaker 2: You know, the son connected through this very young boy 963 00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,799 Speaker 2: at the time of the crime. Obviously the boy's not 964 00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:02,040 Speaker 2: going to be involved in the case, and so saying, well, 965 00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,360 Speaker 2: who's the boy's father, and is that the reason why 966 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:10,000 Speaker 2: that phone number was present? And maybe it is this 967 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,240 Speaker 2: male that has at least I'm assuming access into the house, 968 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,719 Speaker 2: lives there off and on, or lives there permanently. So 969 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,120 Speaker 2: I think that is just a logical conclusion that this 970 00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:22,320 Speaker 2: professor made. 971 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's really grasping at Straw's except he's getting some 972 00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,560 Speaker 1: pretty good evidence here. And here's why this just seems 973 00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,759 Speaker 1: much more than a coincidence. He finds out that the 974 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:38,440 Speaker 1: Somerton man, the unidentified man, and the boy Robin Joe's 975 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:43,680 Speaker 1: son have two unique genetic features that they share. One 976 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:48,440 Speaker 1: is hypodontia, which is missing teeth. It's a dental disorder 977 00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,840 Speaker 1: that's only present in two percent of the population. I 978 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,759 Speaker 1: have a photo of the teeth two percent. That just 979 00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:56,560 Speaker 1: seems for them to share that and be in the 980 00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:01,799 Speaker 1: same town, that just seems incredible, or my really overblowing this. 981 00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:06,480 Speaker 2: Well, obviously, you know the rareness of this I dental 982 00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,440 Speaker 2: condition is something that you have to pay attention to. 983 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,960 Speaker 2: But as I've experienced, coincidences do occur, so I can't 984 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,040 Speaker 2: put too much weight on it. So you know, one 985 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,279 Speaker 2: thing that I did see about this hypodontia is that 986 00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,800 Speaker 2: it is considered congenital and that it can be passed 987 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:28,160 Speaker 2: through generations. So now you have this man and this 988 00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:33,520 Speaker 2: boy sharing this relatively rare congenital condition, so that of 989 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,800 Speaker 2: course could indicate that this man could be the biological father. 990 00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,960 Speaker 2: But I wouldn't rely upon that. I would be doing 991 00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,040 Speaker 2: DNA testing such as a paternity test to be able 992 00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:44,640 Speaker 2: to do that. 993 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,080 Speaker 1: There's one other thing I told you. There's two really 994 00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:52,160 Speaker 1: odd features that these two people share. Another is a 995 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:57,719 Speaker 1: unique ear feature. They both have upper ear hollows that 996 00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,319 Speaker 1: are larger than their lower one, and apparently this is 997 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,600 Speaker 1: very unusual. That also only affects one to two percent 998 00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 1: of the population. ABC Australia, which is a huge network, 999 00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,240 Speaker 1: said the chance of coincidence is estimated at between one 1000 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,040 Speaker 1: in ten thousand and one in twenty thousand of these 1001 00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:20,760 Speaker 1: two things happening with two people in the same area. 1002 00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,680 Speaker 2: What is interesting now those particular features like the hypodontia 1003 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:33,720 Speaker 2: being congenital. Oftentimes there's other features that coexist with hypodoncia, 1004 00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:39,000 Speaker 2: and so if this ear feature is linked to hypodoncia, 1005 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:43,080 Speaker 2: for me, it's more important to determine people who have 1006 00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,880 Speaker 2: hypodoncia what percentage of them also have this ear feature? Right, 1007 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,560 Speaker 2: And so I want to draw the conclusion that the 1008 00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:57,400 Speaker 2: presence of these two unusual features is highly significant unless 1009 00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:02,560 Speaker 2: they were completely unlinked genetically. And then that becomes a 1010 00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,320 Speaker 2: little bit more significant because now it's just like what 1011 00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,799 Speaker 2: we do in DNA when we do population statistics, is 1012 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,200 Speaker 2: we need to have the various markers in the DNA 1013 00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,600 Speaker 2: to be unlinked, so if you inherit one marker, you're 1014 00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:18,680 Speaker 2: not more likely to inherit another marker. And this allows 1015 00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,280 Speaker 2: us to be able to generate statistics using what we 1016 00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,880 Speaker 2: call the product rule. The same thing with these phenotypic features, 1017 00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:29,200 Speaker 2: the hypodontia as well as the ears. Are they unlinked. 1018 00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,520 Speaker 2: If they are, then yes, the presence of this adult 1019 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:35,680 Speaker 2: man and this boy that really starts to get me 1020 00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:39,160 Speaker 2: to lean towards okay, this he appears to possibly be 1021 00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:40,240 Speaker 2: the biological father. 1022 00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,439 Speaker 1: Just to throw in another little bit of oddness here, 1023 00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:48,200 Speaker 1: Robin grows up to be a ballet dancer, which everybody 1024 00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,440 Speaker 1: said they thought perhaps the Summer tin Man was a 1025 00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:55,120 Speaker 1: ballet dancer because of those really long strong legs of 1026 00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:59,760 Speaker 1: his So these three things together really encourages the photo 1027 00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,400 Speaker 1: the I'm about to show you, which is a fantastic 1028 00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:07,800 Speaker 1: dual photo of the Summerton Man alongside Robin for you 1029 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:11,440 Speaker 1: to be able to look at and say say definitively, 1030 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,520 Speaker 1: oh yeah, they're totally related. These guys are definitely related. 1031 00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:18,920 Speaker 1: So here's the photo. It's very eerie. They actually do 1032 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 1: look a lot alike to me. What do you think? 1033 00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this this photo, I'm seeing the profile 1034 00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:29,000 Speaker 2: of the Somerton Man next to Robin. Robin's you know, 1035 00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:32,840 Speaker 2: his face is more turned towards the camera and his photo. 1036 00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:37,720 Speaker 2: I mean there is similarity in terms of the facial features, 1037 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,880 Speaker 2: the prominent nose, the shape of the nose that I 1038 00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:45,640 Speaker 2: can discern. You know, I'm looking at Robin's ears versus 1039 00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:50,800 Speaker 2: Somerton Man's ears, and you know right now, those those 1040 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,640 Speaker 2: features I would just dismiss. I can't draw any type 1041 00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:55,880 Speaker 2: of conclusion on that, but you know I do see, 1042 00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,320 Speaker 2: you know, some similarities. I personally would never put weight 1043 00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:01,880 Speaker 2: on that. For me, it's like, what does the DNA say? 1044 00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:03,240 Speaker 2: I want to know the DNA? 1045 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:07,760 Speaker 1: Right, No, I agree with you, but this theory really 1046 00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:12,360 Speaker 1: propels Professor Abbot to keep going. This has been important 1047 00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,200 Speaker 1: to him. He thinks that if this is what happened, 1048 00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,240 Speaker 1: he thinks that perhaps Somerton man came down to see 1049 00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:24,480 Speaker 1: Joe and Robin the son, and maybe he died for 1050 00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:26,320 Speaker 1: just a random reason on the beach. It was a 1051 00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:30,320 Speaker 1: natural cause. We don't know what happened, but that she 1052 00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:34,280 Speaker 1: didn't want to identify him. He's not saying she killed him. 1053 00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:36,640 Speaker 1: I think he's saying she did not want to be 1054 00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:40,520 Speaker 1: involved because she knew him, she knew the paternity of Robin. 1055 00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,280 Speaker 1: She didn't want to upset the partner she was with 1056 00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:45,800 Speaker 1: to say, the father of my son is dead on 1057 00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,480 Speaker 1: a beach. I mean, that would be upsetting to anybody. 1058 00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:52,080 Speaker 1: This is his strongest theory so far. But this man, 1059 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:56,800 Speaker 1: Professor Abbot, our hero goes for twenty years and pursues 1060 00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,400 Speaker 1: this case until he finally gets some answers. And I 1061 00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,600 Speaker 1: will tell you this is not the answer. This is 1062 01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:02,840 Speaker 1: not what the conclusion is. 1063 01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, part of the early investigation. You know, 1064 01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,360 Speaker 2: if they're trying to find a link between the victim 1065 01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:13,880 Speaker 2: and the nurse Joe, they're going to be talking to neighbors. 1066 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,400 Speaker 2: You know. Of course, you would think somebody would be 1067 01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:19,200 Speaker 2: coming forward saying yeah, he would be coming over, and 1068 01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,400 Speaker 2: they obviously didn't find anything like that. 1069 01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:26,280 Speaker 1: No, this is all conjecture from Professor Abbott, and that's it. 1070 01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:28,880 Speaker 1: This is just his best guess of a case that 1071 01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:30,960 Speaker 1: happened more than fifty years earlier. 1072 01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:33,160 Speaker 2: Sure, and I do want to say I think it's 1073 01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,080 Speaker 2: a reasonable idea to pursue for sure. 1074 01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the closest lead we have as of right 1075 01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,760 Speaker 1: now until twenty eighteen. And now we're going to start 1076 01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,320 Speaker 1: talking your language. Derek Abbott is tired of not knowing 1077 01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,080 Speaker 1: definitively what happened, so he links up with a forensic 1078 01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:52,640 Speaker 1: genealogist and her name is Colleen Fitzpatrick, and he says 1079 01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,479 Speaker 1: to her, what do we need to figure this out? 1080 01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,040 Speaker 1: And she said, do we have anything of his? Do 1081 01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:00,080 Speaker 1: we have any hair samples? And he says, well, I 1082 01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,040 Speaker 1: don't have a brush. We have combs, but there was 1083 01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,080 Speaker 1: nothing there and they weren't preserved, and she and he 1084 01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,800 Speaker 1: figures something out. They did that bust. Remember I told 1085 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,840 Speaker 1: you the plastered bus that was important. Yeah, there's hair 1086 01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:14,240 Speaker 1: in it because they did it on his body and 1087 01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,000 Speaker 1: there's hair caught and the hair is what saves the 1088 01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:21,160 Speaker 1: day over a four year period. So here's the way 1089 01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:24,880 Speaker 1: this unravels. In twenty eighteen, they extract hair samples from 1090 01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:29,120 Speaker 1: the bust, which had been done sixty years earlier, and 1091 01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:32,240 Speaker 1: they were at the South Australia Police Museum. They go 1092 01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:37,160 Speaker 1: into the museum. This is like my dream. There's just 1093 01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,200 Speaker 1: something sitting there in plain sight that you can then take. 1094 01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:44,000 Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, I'm shocked that something that 1095 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:48,480 Speaker 1: has not been properly preserved has the veracity I guess, 1096 01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:53,520 Speaker 1: to be used and it works to an extent. It works. 1097 01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,680 Speaker 1: So I'm surprised that something sitting in a museum could 1098 01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:57,320 Speaker 1: be used. 1099 01:01:57,320 --> 01:01:59,200 Speaker 2: Are you no, not at all. You know, this is 1100 01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,720 Speaker 2: where they created the bust. It's an intimate contact with 1101 01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:05,640 Speaker 2: the victim's body and of course the hairs get trapped 1102 01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:09,720 Speaker 2: in the casting material. It doesn't surprise me that those 1103 01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:15,040 Speaker 2: hairs would survive all these years. And DNA, when properly preserved, 1104 01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:17,880 Speaker 2: is a very hearty molecule. You know. One of the 1105 01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:20,520 Speaker 2: things that if I were looking at that bust to 1106 01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,280 Speaker 2: get the victim's DNA is in addition to those hairs, 1107 01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,479 Speaker 2: I'd be swabbing the mouth, I'd be swabbing the those 1108 01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:28,840 Speaker 2: areas because you're going to get a lot more DNA 1109 01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,560 Speaker 2: from those areas than out of those hairs. But they 1110 01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,560 Speaker 2: did a great job by thinking of the bust if 1111 01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,880 Speaker 2: there is no other physical items from the victim that 1112 01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,400 Speaker 2: had been preserved since nineteen forty eight. So that what 1113 01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:43,720 Speaker 2: a you know, first stroke of luck, and what a 1114 01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:44,520 Speaker 2: brilliant thought. 1115 01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:48,280 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's such dedication from Professor Abbott with all 1116 01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,560 Speaker 1: of this. So first they are able to extract a 1117 01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:55,200 Speaker 1: mitochondrial genome of the Summerton man, and they're able to 1118 01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:57,959 Speaker 1: get his race in his lineage, but they're not able 1119 01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:02,560 Speaker 1: to point conclusively to his identity until they extract additional DNA. 1120 01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:07,200 Speaker 1: Just last year from more hair, the forensic genealogist was 1121 01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:10,320 Speaker 1: able to build out a family tree of four thousand people, 1122 01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:15,960 Speaker 1: and finally they land on a name using descendants on 1123 01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:20,760 Speaker 1: both sides of his family. The man's name was Carl Webb. 1124 01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,080 Speaker 1: So this is a name we had not heard before, 1125 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,080 Speaker 1: and now we're going to find out is Carl Webb aspy? 1126 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:30,840 Speaker 1: Was he the father of Robin Thompson? How did he 1127 01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,600 Speaker 1: know Joe? You know, all of this stuff that happens. 1128 01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,800 Speaker 1: So this is all from being able to take this 1129 01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:41,920 Speaker 1: strand of hair and extracting DNA and working incredibly hard. 1130 01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:46,479 Speaker 1: They were able to use Carl Webb's siblings being able 1131 01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,000 Speaker 1: to cross reference all of this, so it was a 1132 01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:53,080 Speaker 1: remarkable work. Just I mean, I'm amazed that this could 1133 01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:54,560 Speaker 1: have happened sixty years later. 1134 01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:58,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, this is genetic genealogy. Part of the advances 1135 01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:03,480 Speaker 2: since two thousand eighteen and Golden State Killer is the 1136 01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:08,840 Speaker 2: ability to start getting DNA from rootless hairs. And in 1137 01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:14,280 Speaker 2: all likelihood they probably used doctor ed Green's lab, who 1138 01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:17,600 Speaker 2: has a specialty in going after rootless hairs and has 1139 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:22,360 Speaker 2: been highly successful. You have to get that genealogy compatible 1140 01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:27,360 Speaker 2: DNA profile first before you can start using the genealogy 1141 01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:32,960 Speaker 2: to identify your unknown person. And so now this case, 1142 01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:36,919 Speaker 2: that's what's sixty seventy years old. The technology is there 1143 01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:38,160 Speaker 2: to be able to do this. 1144 01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,280 Speaker 1: So let me tell you about Carl Webb, who went 1145 01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:45,600 Speaker 1: by Charles. He was born in November of nineteen oh five, 1146 01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:49,160 Speaker 1: forty three, so the doctor was pretty accurate. He set 1147 01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:51,640 Speaker 1: around forty five, So this guy's forty three. He is 1148 01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:55,680 Speaker 1: not American. He is Australian. He was born in Victoria 1149 01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,240 Speaker 1: and he was living at the time of his death 1150 01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:03,880 Speaker 1: in mel And. He had worked as an electrical technician 1151 01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:07,640 Speaker 1: and an instrument maker. The investigators were off because they 1152 01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:10,480 Speaker 1: thought he was a foreigner and very, very wealthy, and 1153 01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:13,720 Speaker 1: Carl was not. He was kind of a middle class 1154 01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,640 Speaker 1: and someone who was detached from his family. To me, 1155 01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:19,960 Speaker 1: this is where it gets a little bit sad. We 1156 01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,240 Speaker 1: don't know anything that happened to Carl after nineteen forty 1157 01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,880 Speaker 1: seven because there's no day of death. That's how they know, 1158 01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,160 Speaker 1: partially besides the DNA that this is definitively him. There's 1159 01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,160 Speaker 1: no date of death, there's no death certificate. He just 1160 01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,760 Speaker 1: drops off after nineteen forty seven and he was found 1161 01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,720 Speaker 1: dead in nineteen forty eight. So at the time of 1162 01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:43,200 Speaker 1: his death, the family was very fragmented. His parents were dead, 1163 01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:45,160 Speaker 1: he had a brother and a nephew who had died 1164 01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,000 Speaker 1: in World War Two, and he had a brother who 1165 01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,160 Speaker 1: was very ill. He had a sister who died in 1166 01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:54,440 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty five, so seven years after his death, she 1167 01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:57,280 Speaker 1: didn't know he died, and she left him a lot 1168 01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,440 Speaker 1: of money in her will, which is just so sad. 1169 01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:02,840 Speaker 1: Now you know. Of course, the attorney went looking for 1170 01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:05,920 Speaker 1: him and couldn't find him, and they just assumed that 1171 01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:08,640 Speaker 1: he was living somewhere else. But he really didn't seem 1172 01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:12,560 Speaker 1: to have anybody who was attached to him. A couple 1173 01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:16,280 Speaker 1: of other interesting things. Remember t Keen. That was the 1174 01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:20,160 Speaker 1: name written on the labels inside of a few of 1175 01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:24,760 Speaker 1: the shirts that were found inside Carl's suitcase. Right, So 1176 01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:26,919 Speaker 1: we didn't know who this was, and this is why 1177 01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:30,280 Speaker 1: I could tell you that this was certainly his suitcase. 1178 01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:34,160 Speaker 1: So it turns out that T Keen was actually Thomas Keen, 1179 01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,280 Speaker 1: and that was Carl Webb's brother in law, okay, and 1180 01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,360 Speaker 1: he had given him some clothing and so eventually that's 1181 01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:43,240 Speaker 1: how in twenty twenty two, once they figured out his 1182 01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:45,840 Speaker 1: true identity, they were able to put some pieces together. 1183 01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:50,880 Speaker 1: So now Professor Abbott has another theory about why Carl 1184 01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,439 Speaker 1: might have been in this area of Australia. He told 1185 01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,520 Speaker 1: ABC Australia that we have evidence that he separated from 1186 01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,840 Speaker 1: his wife and that she moved down there and he 1187 01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:04,640 Speaker 1: was in Melbourne, and Professor Abbott thinks that Carl went 1188 01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:07,360 Speaker 1: down there to find her, to track her down. And 1189 01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:10,040 Speaker 1: I think there are so many odd things. You know, 1190 01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:12,240 Speaker 1: we don't know about the code. They didn't talk to 1191 01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,240 Speaker 1: the wife. The wife's been long dead. We don't understand 1192 01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:17,360 Speaker 1: what the code is. And as I said, there were 1193 01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,480 Speaker 1: contemporary code breakers. She said, we don't think this is 1194 01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:22,360 Speaker 1: a code. And actually, Professor Abbot thought, tell me what 1195 01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:24,280 Speaker 1: you think of this. He thinks it was just like 1196 01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,400 Speaker 1: a note that Carl might have made, like people would 1197 01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:31,320 Speaker 1: put down the first initial of horses in a horse 1198 01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:34,320 Speaker 1: race that they had heard were good. That this was 1199 01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:36,680 Speaker 1: just sort of some sort of personal code to him, 1200 01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:39,680 Speaker 1: that it wasn't some Cold war spy versus s by 1201 01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,680 Speaker 1: thing happening. He basically said, I don't think it's that deep. 1202 01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:46,120 Speaker 2: Well, you know, just the code itself. I think anything 1203 01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:49,160 Speaker 2: is on the table in terms of exactly what it is. 1204 01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:53,960 Speaker 2: But you can't remove that from the context of the 1205 01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:59,000 Speaker 2: circumstances of the case. You still have the folded up 1206 01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:02,240 Speaker 2: piece of paper out of the book in Carl's pocket. 1207 01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,920 Speaker 2: You have the book that's been thrown into a nearby 1208 01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:09,840 Speaker 2: car to be discovered by the driver of that car. 1209 01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:14,280 Speaker 2: He has a suitcase at a station, and you don't 1210 01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:19,080 Speaker 2: have anybody from the family that has been in contact 1211 01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:22,599 Speaker 2: with Carl for over a year. Yeah, on one hand, 1212 01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:26,360 Speaker 2: it sounds like he's somewhat semi transient, but he also 1213 01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:28,160 Speaker 2: has expensive cigarettes. 1214 01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:29,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, in a nice suit. 1215 01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:33,240 Speaker 2: In a nice suit. Nobody in the family comes forward 1216 01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:36,600 Speaker 2: when they push, you know, push out the image of 1217 01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,800 Speaker 2: the bust in the newspapers, even though the family is 1218 01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,920 Speaker 2: still somewhat local in this part of Australia. Right, so 1219 01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:47,120 Speaker 2: Carl's been identified and they're taking a look at well 1220 01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:52,120 Speaker 2: that these are his known occupations. I still can't resolve 1221 01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:57,360 Speaker 2: the circumstances surrounding his death. And let's say we go 1222 01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:01,280 Speaker 2: back to the idea of him being a spy. It's 1223 01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:05,200 Speaker 2: not like that's just going to be written somewhere right, 1224 01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:08,879 Speaker 2: you know, so you know, at least at this point, 1225 01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:11,559 Speaker 2: you know, and then you may end up telling me 1226 01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:16,280 Speaker 2: something down the road. If I'm still investigating this case today, 1227 01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:21,479 Speaker 2: I can't resolve the circumstances of his death and just say, oh, 1228 01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:25,080 Speaker 2: it's just a you know, natural We'll probably never know 1229 01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:28,639 Speaker 2: because I'm assuming he's been cremated. 1230 01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:30,439 Speaker 1: Or he's been buried, he was buried. 1231 01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:33,240 Speaker 2: At this point, it's do I have a homicide? Does 1232 01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:35,280 Speaker 2: you know on a case is old. Is it even 1233 01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:39,200 Speaker 2: worth going through the exhumation process to identify a potential 1234 01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:42,559 Speaker 2: offender that is likely dead. But it is something that 1235 01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:45,280 Speaker 2: for me, it's like, what is the cause of his death? 1236 01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:48,120 Speaker 2: If he has a poison in his system, then there's 1237 01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:53,799 Speaker 2: something very sinister going on. Right those cigarettes are still around. 1238 01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:56,880 Speaker 2: I think they need to test those cigarettes because you 1239 01:09:56,960 --> 01:09:59,760 Speaker 2: can poison somebody through inholation. 1240 01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:04,360 Speaker 1: But you can also take your own life by taking poison. Absolutely, 1241 01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:07,040 Speaker 1: what we know what we know? I think if we're 1242 01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:10,599 Speaker 1: looking at the simplest explanation, first of all, let's get 1243 01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,080 Speaker 1: this off the table. He is not the father of 1244 01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:15,600 Speaker 1: Robin Thompson. He was not the father. They did a 1245 01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:19,200 Speaker 1: DNA match and NOE wasn't him. Why Joe's phone number 1246 01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:21,400 Speaker 1: was in this book. I have no idea, and they 1247 01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:23,840 Speaker 1: were never able to figure that out. But he is 1248 01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:27,240 Speaker 1: not Robin's father. So I think there's that. I think 1249 01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:30,439 Speaker 1: there's also the theory Professor Abbott wonders if his cause 1250 01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:32,360 Speaker 1: of death was actually he's had a couple of people 1251 01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:36,240 Speaker 1: mentioned this to him, positional exphyxiation because of the way 1252 01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:39,200 Speaker 1: that he was sitting. Does that make sense too? I mean, 1253 01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:42,160 Speaker 1: somebody who's in despair, who has some poison or no 1254 01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:44,960 Speaker 1: poison at all, and he has heart troubles and he 1255 01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:46,679 Speaker 1: sits on the beach and just dies. 1256 01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:52,920 Speaker 2: Well, positional asphyxia most certainly happens now in my experience, 1257 01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:58,160 Speaker 2: it's usually when somebody is so inebriated that do they 1258 01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:02,160 Speaker 2: get themselves into a ps position and they don't recognize 1259 01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:04,200 Speaker 2: they can't get themselves out of that position, and then 1260 01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:08,200 Speaker 2: they in essence, they asphyxiate. Right now, I think there's 1261 01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:11,880 Speaker 2: too many unanswered questions to write off Carl's death as 1262 01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:15,400 Speaker 2: being anything else besides homicide. And that's where you know, 1263 01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:17,920 Speaker 2: I come out of this world. It's a homicide until 1264 01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,840 Speaker 2: proven otherwise. And at this point, with the information you've 1265 01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:24,280 Speaker 2: provided me, I'm going I'm still leaning towards homicide. 1266 01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:28,840 Speaker 1: Well, for his part, Professor Abbott has come to his 1267 01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:32,640 Speaker 1: own conclusions. He said there's little evidence that he was 1268 01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:35,960 Speaker 1: a Cold War spy. He didn't know anybody except his 1269 01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:39,680 Speaker 1: ex wife in the area. From what anybody said, he 1270 01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,000 Speaker 1: was in a mental health crisis. It sounded like over 1271 01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:46,160 Speaker 1: the divorce and might have been stalking her. We don't know. 1272 01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:49,120 Speaker 1: He followed her down, you know, to find her on 1273 01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:52,160 Speaker 1: the beach. You know, we also come back to that 1274 01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:56,479 Speaker 1: little piece of paper Tim mom shoud, which meant finished. 1275 01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,759 Speaker 1: He thinks it was a suicide note. Okay, he feels 1276 01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,840 Speaker 1: like he took something and that was the end of it. 1277 01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,120 Speaker 1: It can't be identified what he took, but that he 1278 01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:09,200 Speaker 1: was this was a man in despair. That's what he concludes. 1279 01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:12,759 Speaker 1: But he's also not a forensic investigator, so we're talking 1280 01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:16,240 Speaker 1: about two different things. I think that's the simple explanation. 1281 01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:19,760 Speaker 1: I certainly think there are other explanations that are much 1282 01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:22,680 Speaker 1: more exciting than that one, but that also is an explanation. 1283 01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:28,200 Speaker 2: It is a reasonable conclusion. But I still feel that 1284 01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:32,320 Speaker 2: there's too many unanswered questions for me to be able 1285 01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:36,000 Speaker 2: to say or be comfortable in saying it is definitively 1286 01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,880 Speaker 2: as suicide. I would personally keep it open as homicide 1287 01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:41,920 Speaker 2: until I got more information. It's just, you know, seven 1288 01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:44,960 Speaker 2: years later, the likelihood of getting more information and answering 1289 01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:48,200 Speaker 2: some of these questions is unlikely. I think there's still 1290 01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:49,519 Speaker 2: a mystery surrounding this guy. 1291 01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:52,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, Professor Abbott reached out to his descendants and nobody 1292 01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,480 Speaker 1: had any new information. I mean, he was very isolated, 1293 01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:57,760 Speaker 1: it sounded like it sounded like he became more and 1294 01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:01,519 Speaker 1: more isolated as his marriage was falling apart. I'll take 1295 01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:03,880 Speaker 1: a different tag from you, because what I believe is 1296 01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:06,320 Speaker 1: that he probably went and found his wife she said, 1297 01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:09,120 Speaker 1: bug off, I'm not interested in you anymore. You know, 1298 01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:12,800 Speaker 1: we're done, and in despair he got something. I don't 1299 01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:14,640 Speaker 1: know what that would be, and that was the end 1300 01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:16,360 Speaker 1: of it for him. I don't know why he had 1301 01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:19,960 Speaker 1: the suitcase at the bus station. Maybe he kept it 1302 01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:21,519 Speaker 1: that was just a place for him to store it, 1303 01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:23,200 Speaker 1: to figure out if he was even going to stay. 1304 01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:26,920 Speaker 1: I don't know why. You know he had very expensive 1305 01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:30,719 Speaker 1: cigarettes in an inexpensive casing. I don't know why there's 1306 01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:33,439 Speaker 1: these weird letters if he was playing the ponies. We 1307 01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:36,480 Speaker 1: don't have a lot of answers here. It is a mystery, 1308 01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:39,120 Speaker 1: and it has been a big mystery in this part 1309 01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:42,439 Speaker 1: of Australia. But really to have answers, and from an 1310 01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,360 Speaker 1: engineering professor who just said we're going to figure this 1311 01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:48,280 Speaker 1: out and pursuit this for twenty years, I think it's 1312 01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:51,200 Speaker 1: pretty remarkable because you know, we talk about these old 1313 01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:53,800 Speaker 1: cases and well, does it make a difference. It does 1314 01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:57,640 Speaker 1: always makes a difference to identify somebody and to have 1315 01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:03,160 Speaker 1: that conclusion. I believe every body's life should be recognized, 1316 01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:05,840 Speaker 1: for better or for worse, and to just sort of 1317 01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:10,519 Speaker 1: be lost and buried with no marker, really, or if 1318 01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,720 Speaker 1: there's a marker, not having the correct identification there is 1319 01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:17,559 Speaker 1: very sad. So I'm glad that, for better or for worse, whatever, 1320 01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:20,519 Speaker 1: Professor Abbott believes that he was able to come to 1321 01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,679 Speaker 1: some kind of a conclusion here. Even if what actually 1322 01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:25,560 Speaker 1: happened is a mystery. 1323 01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:29,040 Speaker 2: This case also underscores, you know, how important it is 1324 01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:33,920 Speaker 2: to identify your victim, to really do a thorough investigation. 1325 01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,280 Speaker 2: Imagine how easy it would have been if they could 1326 01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:40,280 Speaker 2: have gotten Carl's name early on. They could go contact 1327 01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:43,320 Speaker 2: the ex wife and he was he here? What was 1328 01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:48,920 Speaker 2: his demeanor like, and start really piecing things together and maybe, 1329 01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:54,679 Speaker 2: you know, conclude, yeah, this is truly a suicide. Now 1330 01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:59,120 Speaker 2: you can't do that. Everybody's dead. You can't backtrack. I 1331 01:14:59,240 --> 01:15:00,960 Speaker 2: want to try to figure out what was going on 1332 01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:03,240 Speaker 2: in Carl's head at this point in time. 1333 01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:09,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, boy, I'm uncomfortable with unsolved cases. I know that's 1334 01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:11,720 Speaker 1: your bread and butter, but it is not mine. And 1335 01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:14,240 Speaker 1: I throw these in. They just made me. I love 1336 01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:17,320 Speaker 1: a good conclusion. I do want to give a nod 1337 01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:20,559 Speaker 1: to you, and I know your love of cold cases 1338 01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:23,240 Speaker 1: and unsolved cases. So I'm gonna throw these in every 1339 01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:24,800 Speaker 1: once in a while. And this was a good one. 1340 01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:27,800 Speaker 2: It absolutely is. You know, it's fascinating story and you know, 1341 01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:30,559 Speaker 2: almost as you're telling it, I was having, you know, 1342 01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:35,960 Speaker 2: flashes of like a James Bond movie and and you 1343 01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:38,680 Speaker 2: know it kind of still going, well maybe that's you know, 1344 01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:42,320 Speaker 2: maybe maybe, or it was just yeah, just a guy 1345 01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:44,759 Speaker 2: down on his luck and took his own life. 1346 01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:48,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, another case next week. Paul Hols be here 1347 01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:51,680 Speaker 1: or be what is it? It's be there, be square, that's it. 1348 01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:54,240 Speaker 2: I do not want to be square, so I will 1349 01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:54,960 Speaker 2: be there. How's that? 1350 01:15:55,920 --> 01:16:04,440 Speaker 1: Thanks? This has been an exactly right production. 1351 01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:07,679 Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot 1352 01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:09,839 Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources. 1353 01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:12,440 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 1354 01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:15,599 Speaker 4: Research by Maren mcclashan and Katewinkler Dawson. 1355 01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:18,560 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Leona Scilacci. 1356 01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:21,080 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryvogel. 1357 01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:23,400 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 1358 01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:27,799 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer. 1359 01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:31,439 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 1360 01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:32,320 Speaker 1: buried Bones. 1361 01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:35,320 Speaker 4: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a 1362 01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:37,639 Speaker 4: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode 1363 01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:39,960 Speaker 4: the criminal mind, is available now, and 1364 01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:44,839 Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold cases, 1365 01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:46,200 Speaker 1: is also available now