WEBVTT - Prime Time Crime PT 2 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:06.760 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.559 last twenty five years writing about true crime. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.800 And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.400 worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:20.960 Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling. 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.880 True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:26.040 to bring new insights to old mysteries. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:31.639 Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.360 cases through a twenty first century lens. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.760 Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:01:03.240 This is buried Bones. Hey Kate, Hey Paul, you ready 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:04.560 to go on Bob Crane. 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:06.480 Absolutely, I want to hear it. 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:09.160 I'm surprised you didn't text me in the middle of 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.880 the week and say, okay, tell me a little bit more. 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.720 I mean, it's a big one when somebody is not 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.240 who you expect them to be, and now there's these 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.279 suspects and people around in sort of a sleazy world 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:23.240 in a way, so it's interesting. 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.160 Well, I think yeah. That was one of the takeaways 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:30.000 from the first episode, is the victimology. Because all I 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.039 knew about Bob Crane is the actor, and now you 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:37.559 start to see, well, everybody has their thing, and it 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:41.120 looks like he's got this whether he's making poorn, but 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.640 he's doing something that seems a little shady and I'm 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.760 interested to see how that world develops. Is that the 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.640 reason he ends up dead? Is it because of these 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:55.680 affairs that he's having, these you know, sexual flings that 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.960 he's having, and you got jealous men that are coming 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.200 after him, you know, So there's a lot of stuff 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:01.960 going on with him. 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:05.400 Absolutely, let me do a quick recap and you know, 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:08.800 catch everybody up. So we're in nineteen seventy eight Scottsdale 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:12.480 Hotter in Hell and it's June and Bob Crane is there. 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:14.560 We don't know for how long, but it sounds like 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:17.200 just for a few weeks, maybe a month, staying in 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:21.400 a little apartment doing a dinner show, and he has 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:26.120 a co star coming over. She discovers his body. The 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:31.200 police then discover a large amount of photos of naked 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.720 women on polaroids, as well as a lot of video. 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:38.240 He's got video equipment everywhere. He's been hit twice in 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:42.000 the head and he has a cord ripped from a 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:45.760 VCR around his neck, and you know, this is a 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.520 very bloody scene. There's no signs at forced entry. But 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:51.920 at the end of the last episode we talked about well, 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.680 I mean a gun pointed at you would not indicate 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.120 forced entry either, So we can't really rely on that. 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.799 But there are jealous boyfriends, and there's a wife who 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:05.880 thought that she was going to be reconciling and now 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.360 she finds out that it doesn't sound like he's gotten 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.080 out of this sex addiction is what he claims it 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:14.680 is at this point. So the police are investigating a 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:19.320 good friend of his named John Carpenter, electronics salesman. We're 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.280 assuming most of the electronics in this apartment and probably 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.320 what he had in LA are sold to him or 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:27.760 given to him by John Carpenter. So one of the 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.800 big questions will be for us, what does John Carpenter 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.040 get out of all of this? The mystery will deepen 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.240 once we find out a little bit more about their relationship. 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.080 Did I get everything right or do you have any 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.240 other questions or anything I haven't covered? 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.480 No, I think that you know from the investigative side, 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:47.880 that pretty much sums it up. One of the questions 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:52.240 that I have is what was the autopsy finding? You know, 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.160 in terms of you said there was two blows. I 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.200 mean I could see the two lacerations. Was there signs 0:03:58.200 --> 0:03:58.920 of strangulation? 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:03.400 Okay, there's a deputy medical examiner, a guy named Thomas Jarvis, 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.400 this is from John Hook's book, who performed the autopsy. 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:09.520 So he was almost fifty years old when he died. 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.600 Type of death is listed as violent, no kidding, the 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:18.160 manner by blunt instrument and chord. Here are the abnormal findings, 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:23.279 abundant dry blood on face, hair, and upper chest. The 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.840 autopsy report also noted a flaky, white dry material on 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:33.440 the pubic hair, right lower abdomen, and right anterior thigh, 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:37.200 which they said was likely semen, but they never tested it. 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:41.359 Police later theorized the killer may have masturbated over Crane's 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.240 dead body after the killing, which John Hook says is 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.039 a final fuck you quote unquote, But it was a 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.800 theory and they never tested the semen and never came 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:54.440 to a conclusion about what it was. And that's all 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.840 the information I have about what they found. Okay, what 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.680 do you think about that? The way they described it, 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.680 does that seem likely? If this is a man Is 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.560 it a fuck you masturbating over somebody? Is that what 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:07.920 that is? I always thought it was sort of a sexual. 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.080 Component, So that does happen? You know, you have these 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.640 offenders that will masturbate after they've they've killed their victims. 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:18.680 You know, Is it a form of denigration to the victim? Potentially, 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:21.880 you know, but it's a it's a sexual act. It 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.640 sounds like they didn't collect these items, these stings. You know, 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.359 it's like, oh good god, we're talking about all the 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.760 you know, these these photos of nude women and and 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:36.039 and videos of women having sex his bedsheets. That's a 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.960 huge source of information. There's all sorts of DNA from 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.920 these various sexual encounters, and most certainly there could be 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:47.080 evidence from the offender and stains on that sheet for 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.160 maybe a prior occasion, if there had been a relationship 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.640 between the offender. Right now, I'm assuming the offender is male. 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.000 I don't know if Crane is having sex with men, 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.920 but I wouldn't end up saying no, that's an impossible 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.480 because all the subjects of his photos and videos, as 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:05.920 far as what you've told me, are women, you know, 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.640 but you know, is crying somebody that is you know, 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:15.280 crossing into homosexual acts. That opens up a whole other 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.719 suspect pool. And it's like, who has he had sex with? 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:24.200 And you can answer that by swabbing his body, by 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:28.520 collecting his bed sheets. You know, that is so huge. 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:33.520 There's limited number of reasons why people are killed in 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:37.080 terms of primary motives, and one of the primary ones 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.359 is it's who they're having sex with, whether it be 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.279 a man or a woman. So you need to collect 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:44.720 that evidence up front. 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.080 Okay, Well, let's talk about John Carpenter and his relationship 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:54.080 with Bob Crane. And yes, we know they didn't collect 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.200 anything another failing. They did some good things and some 0:06:57.240 --> 0:06:59.400 bad things here. I mean, I'm glad he had her 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.120 answer the phone that one time, even though I know 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.120 it contaminated even more of the crime scene. It was 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.040 interesting that he called twice, you know, and what his 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.600 reactions are in all of that. But at the same time, 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:13.720 forensically they're failing. Scott Stale police are not doing a 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:14.640 great job right now. 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.600 There's a struggle going on there. Yeah, things could have 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:19.239 been done better. 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.480 Well, let's talk about the police interview. They are looking 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:26.240 at Bob Crane's inner circle, as any police would, and 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.400 they start talking to a lot of people. They're getting 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.560 conflicting reports because they really are focusing on John Carpenter, 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.720 for better or for worse. There were reports that they 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.480 got along great, these two guys, and there are reports 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:39.480 that they had been on the outs, and a few 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.920 days before Bob's death they were in a heated argument. 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:47.080 We don't know about what. And Bob Crane Junior, who 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:50.560 was close with his dad, gives police this quote, and 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.040 I promise this is all going somewhere more than just 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:55.920 they probably irritated each other every once in a while. 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.800 There was an indication just in a passing conversation with 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:02.440 my father that John Carpenter coming into town was getting 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.080 to be a little bit of a pain in the ass. 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.920 My dad expressed that he just didn't need Carpenter kind 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:12.040 of hanging around him anymore. So let me explain what 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:16.240 the relationship was like. John had cultivated this transactional relationship 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:21.840 between Bob and himself. So for Bob, John has this 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.760 access to equipment that I'm sure Bob is clueless about. 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:26.600 So he gets all of this great equipment for something 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:30.040 that he's obviously preoccupied with. And that's a big part 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:34.040 of Bob's life, and John gets the proximity to Bob, 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:40.319 so he gets Hollywood fun, he gets women and sex. 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:45.480 And the men have even taped themselves. I'm assuming they've 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:49.000 found these tapes in threesomes, so there is some kind 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.560 of intimacy. I mean, the range of two men and 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.720 a woman in a threesome could go, you know, many 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:58.840 different directions, but there's certainly an intimacy and a comfort 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:00.600 level there with the two men. 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:06.240 So it sounds like per Crane's son that Bob Crane 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.640 was starting to say John Carpenter was more of a 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:13.520 hanger on and not as desired at this point. 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.560 Yeah, in the relationship, and he and his wife were 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:19.360 getting back together if we believe the wife, you know, 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.679 he's in therapy, although I don't know if those tapes 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:22.160 say that. 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:26.839 But yeah, and so now this this becomes interesting from 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:31.480 potentially a motive, you know, was John Carpenter starting to 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.920 sense that Bob Crane the celebrity, was pulling away from 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.280 him and that his lifestyle was going to be changing. 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.520 You no longer have access to the women, to the 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:44.960 Hollywood you know, lifestyle, whatever that was with Bob Crane. 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:48.600 Did Crane tell him, you know, hey, stop coming around, 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.680 you know, and now you could have somebody being very 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.760 upset as a result of it's basically a breakup, you know. 0:09:55.920 --> 0:10:01.480 And so Carpenter most certainly is an interesting suspect, you know. 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.560 And I'd say he's a suspect for sure, I just 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.840 right now. You know. My fear is is that maybe 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.880 law enforcement so focused in on him that they didn't 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:14.720 pursue other leads as rigorously as they possibly should have. 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.400 Yeah, I mean it sounds like it. Let me give 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:19.800 you a little tiny bit more insight. I mean, this 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.880 is such a gross quote, but the Phoenix New Times 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:27.320 back in nineteen seventy eight said women were drawn to 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:31.080 the still popular crane like fish to a worm, and 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:36.480 Carpenter didn't seem to mind dallying with the leftovers. Gross 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.560 And so, you know, the theory for the police, which 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.600 they thought was the strongest of any of these suspects 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.319 and any other theory they had, was that John was motivated, 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.080 just like you said, to kill Bob because Bob was 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:53.800 stepping back from their friendship. Bob apparently had been saying 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:55.640 he was going to try to get back together with 0:10:55.720 --> 0:11:00.000 his wife. John says none of that is true. He said, 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.680 I came to Arizona on June twenty fifth, and all 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:07.240 of this happened on the twenty ninth, so it sounds 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.400 like he had been there for three or four days. 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:11.600 And he says, look, I was there to do some 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.760 business and to hang out with Bob. They said, what 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.960 did you guys do together? He said, we tried to 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.480 pick up women. So much for therapy and getting back 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.520 together with your wife. So this is a funny line 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:25.439 from Marin. And then I want to hear from you. 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.080 She said that they tried to pick up women and 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:32.559 then Bob was successful. John was not. And the last 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.439 night that John was in town, he brought a woman 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:37.360 back to the hotel and put the moves on her, 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.959 and at three am, the woman asked to be taken home, 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.320 so he dropped her off. And he's unaccounted for from 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.760 three am until eight am when he checks out the 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.120 hotel and he goes to the airport. So there's this 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.720 five hour window, according to John, where he could have 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:55.000 absolutely carried out. 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:59.400 This murder for sure. This also goes to where we 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.480 know John Carpenter changed the time that he said that 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.360 he left Bob Crane from one am to two forty 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.000 five am, and I mentioned what sounds like he's concerned 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.600 about witness possibly seeing him later than what he stated 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.920 he was there. And now there's this woman and I 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.800 don't know if she has ever identified, but his from 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:21.680 his perspective, he's seeing an homicide investigation unfold and he's going, oh, 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.600 they are tracking people down, and they're going to find 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.520 out about this woman. And she's going to say I 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:28.960 was with him several hours past the time that he 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.040 said that he had actually left Bob Crane. One of 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:35.520 the thoughts that I have though, is if John Carpenter 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:40.640 is truly enjoying the lifestyle with Bob Crane and Bob 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:44.880 Crane is starting to pull away, well, killing Bob Crane 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:49.319 basically completely ends that lifestyle, you know, so there is 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:53.120 there's an argument to be made that Carpenter would be 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.920 more motivated to have Crane alive than dead if he 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:03.000 wants to have any potential future relationship with Crane and 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:07.240 all the various advantages that gives Carpenter in his life. 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:12.400 You know, that's you could most certainly see where in 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.920 a fit of rage, you have a homicide occur because 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.120 of this. Let's say a breakup between Bob Crane and 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:22.000 John Carpenter, and possibly if a tripod was used as 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:26.199 a bludgeoning device. This doesn't sound like it's pre planned homicide. 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.199 He's not coming in with a weapon. He's utilizing something 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.360 that is found within the apartment. The electrical cord is 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:36.200 something that is coming off of a VCR. And I 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:41.040 think it's significant that. I mean, I've seen offenders pull 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.640 electrical cords out of various devices and use them as 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:47.600 binding and or ligature material, but it's significant that he's 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.960 choosing an electronic device. The offender's choosing an electronic device 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:55.760 versus maybe drapery cord or something like that. So would 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.880 that kind of suggest you know, Carpenter is familiar with 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:04.360 these electronicquipment. He knew that possibly this VCR has a 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:06.440 power cord and that would be very easy to be 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:08.560 able to yank out of it, just the way it's 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:13.600 attached internally. However, the victimology also just keeps the door 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.720 open to the possibility that you have the jealous male 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.560 coming in and taking Bob Crane out. 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:22.680 Yeah, and I think that, like I said, they are 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:28.040 really really focused on John Carpenter and just the squishiness 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:30.760 of his timeline in general, I think is what gets them. 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.200 So let's talk about evidence. That's what you and I 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.400 care about. Also, police need to find the rental car 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:40.560 that John Carpenter had used. He had been there four 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.440 or five days, he said, I rented a car. So 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.840 a few days after Bob is found dead, they finally 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:51.360 locate this car and it's having mechanical issues and was 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.360 being sent to a repair shop, which I think probably 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.560 would have been a nightmare. Of course, having other people 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:57.400 in the car, because it's a rental car would have 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.680 been bad too. But the police find it, they toe it, 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.840 and they start looking at some things. So in a minute, 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:06.920 I'll have you look at the car. Well, actually, go 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.680 ahead and look at the car. Now, it's not a Cadillac, 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.440 but it's a Chrysler Cordoba. I don't know if that 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.280 looks like a Cadillac, So look on your bump crane photos. Also, Paul, 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.280 there's a doc I don't I guess I skipped over it. 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.960 There's a little diagram in there from the police. I 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:23.640 don't know if you're going to think that's helpful or not. 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:29.000 To be frank, this this crime scene sketch is quite artistic. 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:30.840 This is unusual. 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:34.320 Looks like a like a pro create drawing to me, 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.120 like a really high level drawing. 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:39.760 Well, this is you know, this is where Obviously the 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:44.560 person who did this sketch for Scottsdale PD is a 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.480 talented sketcher. But like if I were the mentor of 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.040 this person, I'd be slapping him on the back of 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.440 his head saying, you're taking too long because you're putting 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.960 in detail that is not needed. He's got the you know, 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.000 wrinkles in the sheet and shape to the pillow, and 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.080 it's like, no, you know, this is we need to 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.560 get moving on this, you know, collecting evidence. We can't 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.880 be sitting here trying to make a pretty sketch. So 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.360 this tells me there's a level of inexperience. As good 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:18.600 as this sketch appears visually, it's like, no, it's too much, 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:23.200 it's overkilled. We have photographs to fill in those details. Okay, 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:26.040 So I'm looking at a photograph. It's indicating that this 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:31.520 is John Carpenter's Chrysler Cordoba. So this was a rental 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:34.960 car and this is you know, your typical boat of 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:38.520 a car from the nineteen seventies. Yeah, yeah, it's you know, 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:42.240 you got the massive trunk, you probably got a massive 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:46.360 front bench seat. It appears to be a Tudor car. 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.040 This photograph to show in the car from the rear, 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.720 you know, so I'm seeing the tail lights. You know, 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:53.560 it's a massive car. And I know we have this 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:57.760 witness that sees what was described as a white Cadillac. 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.400 White Cadillac look like this back in the nineteen seventies, 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:05.000 you know, so this is where Okay, this car, this Cordoba, 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.520 is probably something that would easily be confused for a 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.639 Cadillac from this this era. So I think you mentioned 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:17.199 it when you're talking about the white Cadillac in the 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.359 first episode that yeah, you could probably you know, throw 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:23.760 a rock and hit one because they would be so popular. 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:27.600 So it's not I can't put a lot of weight 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.520 that carpenter has a vehicle that I would say matches 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.280 what that witness said about a white Cadillac. But it 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:41.240 is important evidence in that. Okay, what is found inside here? 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.560 Is there anything from the crime scene that could be 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.600 you know, inside to this rental car. You know that 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:50.960 today maybe with DNA we could tie back, you know, 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:56.040 is there blood transfers or other aspects. Hopefully they did 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:57.439 a thorough job processing this. 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.200 So let me look and go back and forth, so 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:06.200 don't skip ahead. But we do have photos kind of everything. 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.080 Every time I say something, we've got a photo. So 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.240 first up is going to be in the backseat of 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.320 the passenger side of what's confirmed to be John Carpenter's 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:20.560 rental car, technicians find a small dry blood smear on 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:24.720 the switch that rolls the window up and down. John 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:28.040 hook says they weren't drops of blood. These were more 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:31.560 like streaks or smudges or smears. So that's what you 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.800 see on page five of your doc. 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.679 It's important that they're finding blood because you have a 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.199 homicide victim that is bleeding. So is it possible the 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:46.240 offender walked out from that homicide with blood on his person, 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.960 on his clothing, on an object, let's say the murder 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.320 weapon that is transferred inside the rental car? For sure. However, 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.520 at this point it's a rental car. Who else has 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:59.720 been inside this car and is bleeding until that blood 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.480 is owned to be Bob Crane's blood with DNA, you know, 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.719 for me, it's like, yeah, it's important, but you need 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.480 to do DNA in order to interpret it as having 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:10.000 any relevance to this crime. 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.240 Yeah, and there's a couple of other things. So there's 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:15.040 a bunch of other stains. I guess if you kind 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.280 of go through, you'll see there are a few other stains. 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.199 Blood on a power window switch, you know, blood stains 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:26.320 on the passenger door. There is a tissue speck on 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:28.960 the door panel, and then there is going to be 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.679 one more little bit down there that they believe is 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:33.760 brain matter that was found in the car. 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:36.520 Wait a second, So okay, So this tissue spec on 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:40.080 door panel believed to be from Bob Crane's skull lost 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:41.040 or never collected. 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:43.600 So they took a photo of it but never collected it. 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:44.600 What the hell? 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:49.959 Well, we've established, Paul that Scottsdale pet is overmatched. 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:53.080 Here, So I mean, how can they even say anything 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.679 about this? Let's see here, I do not know. So 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.440 I'm zooming in and I see that. You know, there's 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:05.919 a ruler that in you know inches American standard measurement ruler, 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:12.440 and this red glob is about one sixteenth of an 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:17.320 inch in diameter. It's got three dimensions to it. There's 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:21.880 a closeup photo of this tissue spec on the next page. 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:27.159 When it's initially photoed, you know the coloration, it's looking 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:33.400 bright red, and then this close up photo it's looking brown. 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:39.320 It's like this globular mass that to be frank. Just 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.880 from its physical appearance, I couldn't draw any conclusion as 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.840 to what it is. I have processed, you know, thousands 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:50.280 of items for blood for tissue over the course of 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:52.880 my career. I've seen them at a crime scenes, seen 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:58.240 it on items of evidence within the lab, and this 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:03.399 mass could be anything. I literally cannot conclude what it is. 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:07.240 And I will tell you I've seen stains on physical 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:09.199 evidence that I was like, that's blood, and then I 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:12.920 test it and it's not blood. And I've seen stuff, 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:15.040 let's say, inside a car. I can think of one 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:17.399 thing where I've got this reddish brown it looked like 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:20.359 dried blood and tested it and it was not blood. 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:23.679 And so that's where you know I have developed a 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:27.919 level of cautiousness. I can look. I know what a 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.560 crime scene looks like. I know what blood looks like, 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.840 fresh looks like when it's coagulating as it's outside the body. 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:36.679 I know what it looks like when it's dry, when 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:41.520 it's been subjected to environmental influences. But now there's a 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.760 photo of this globular mass that they never collect, and 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.720 they're saying it's coming from Bob Crane's skull. 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:52.600 They're not sure. I know, I know, you know. 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:55.960 I can't. I personally and I have a level of expertise, 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:59.359 I cannot draw that conclusion. It seems like somebody's really 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:03.920 reaching on this item of evidence. And there's these other 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:07.240 bloodstains in the car. Did they collect those? And has 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:08.720 DNA testing been done on those? 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.560 Let me get you jumping way ahead, buddy, so you 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:13.440 just hang Remember this is a two part and we're 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:16.040 not ten minutes. Let me tell you what they do. 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:19.520 So thankfully, they do pull a sample of the blood. 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.720 It is type B rare and Bob is a type B. 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:27.959 John is not. Bob says, I have no idea how 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:29.560 the blood got in there. I don't know what you're 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:32.919 talking about. He volunteers to go back to Arizona. He 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:35.240 does not get a lawyer. He says, I'll take a 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:39.680 lie detector test, and I'll take truth serum sodium pentothl. 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:41.880 Yes, so pentothal sure, which just. 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:45.480 Sounds like an interesting way to die. Truth serum or 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:48.119 even go under hypnosis, and he says, I don't have 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:51.000 anything to hide. You know, the police are very frustrated. 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.840 For years, they remain focused on John Carpenter. The tangible 0:22:55.880 --> 0:23:00.520 evidence against him is scant, so every so often there's 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:04.400 a tip. There's a housekeeper at the Scottsdale Hotel where 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:07.680