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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Hey Kate, Hey Paul, you ready

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Speaker 1: to go on Bob Crane.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I want to hear it.

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Speaker 1: I'm surprised you didn't text me in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the week and say, okay, tell me a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a big one when somebody is not

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Speaker 1: who you expect them to be, and now there's these

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Speaker 1: suspects and people around in sort of a sleazy world

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Speaker 1: in a way, so it's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think yeah. That was one of the takeaways

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Speaker 2: from the first episode, is the victimology. Because all I

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Speaker 2: knew about Bob Crane is the actor, and now you

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Speaker 2: start to see, well, everybody has their thing, and it

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Speaker 2: looks like he's got this whether he's making poorn, but

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Speaker 2: he's doing something that seems a little shady and I'm

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Speaker 2: interested to see how that world develops. Is that the

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Speaker 2: reason he ends up dead? Is it because of these

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Speaker 2: affairs that he's having, these you know, sexual flings that

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Speaker 2: he's having, and you got jealous men that are coming

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Speaker 2: after him, you know, So there's a lot of stuff

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Speaker 2: going on with him.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, let me do a quick recap and you know,

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Speaker 1: catch everybody up. So we're in nineteen seventy eight Scottsdale

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Speaker 1: Hotter in Hell and it's June and Bob Crane is there.

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Speaker 1: We don't know for how long, but it sounds like

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Speaker 1: just for a few weeks, maybe a month, staying in

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Speaker 1: a little apartment doing a dinner show, and he has

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Speaker 1: a co star coming over. She discovers his body. The

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Speaker 1: police then discover a large amount of photos of naked

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Speaker 1: women on polaroids, as well as a lot of video.

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Speaker 1: He's got video equipment everywhere. He's been hit twice in

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Speaker 1: the head and he has a cord ripped from a

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Speaker 1: VCR around his neck, and you know, this is a

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Speaker 1: very bloody scene. There's no signs at forced entry. But

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Speaker 1: at the end of the last episode we talked about well,

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Speaker 1: I mean a gun pointed at you would not indicate

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Speaker 1: forced entry either, So we can't really rely on that.

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Speaker 1: But there are jealous boyfriends, and there's a wife who

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Speaker 1: thought that she was going to be reconciling and now

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Speaker 1: she finds out that it doesn't sound like he's gotten

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Speaker 1: out of this sex addiction is what he claims it

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Speaker 1: is at this point. So the police are investigating a

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Speaker 1: good friend of his named John Carpenter, electronics salesman. We're

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Speaker 1: assuming most of the electronics in this apartment and probably

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Speaker 1: what he had in LA are sold to him or

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Speaker 1: given to him by John Carpenter. So one of the

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Speaker 1: big questions will be for us, what does John Carpenter

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Speaker 1: get out of all of this? The mystery will deepen

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Speaker 1: once we find out a little bit more about their relationship.

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Speaker 1: Did I get everything right or do you have any

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Speaker 1: other questions or anything I haven't covered?

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Speaker 2: No, I think that you know from the investigative side,

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Speaker 2: that pretty much sums it up. One of the questions

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Speaker 2: that I have is what was the autopsy finding? You know,

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Speaker 2: in terms of you said there was two blows. I

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Speaker 2: mean I could see the two lacerations. Was there signs

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Speaker 2: of strangulation?

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Speaker 1: Okay, there's a deputy medical examiner, a guy named Thomas Jarvis,

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Speaker 1: this is from John Hook's book, who performed the autopsy.

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Speaker 1: So he was almost fifty years old when he died.

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Speaker 1: Type of death is listed as violent, no kidding, the

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Speaker 1: manner by blunt instrument and chord. Here are the abnormal findings,

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Speaker 1: abundant dry blood on face, hair, and upper chest. The

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Speaker 1: autopsy report also noted a flaky, white dry material on

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Speaker 1: the pubic hair, right lower abdomen, and right anterior thigh,

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Speaker 1: which they said was likely semen, but they never tested it.

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Speaker 1: Police later theorized the killer may have masturbated over Crane's

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Speaker 1: dead body after the killing, which John Hook says is

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Speaker 1: a final fuck you quote unquote, But it was a

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Speaker 1: theory and they never tested the semen and never came

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Speaker 1: to a conclusion about what it was. And that's all

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Speaker 1: the information I have about what they found. Okay, what

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Speaker 1: do you think about that? The way they described it,

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Speaker 1: does that seem likely? If this is a man Is

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Speaker 1: it a fuck you masturbating over somebody? Is that what

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Speaker 1: that is? I always thought it was sort of a sexual.

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Speaker 2: Component, So that does happen? You know, you have these

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Speaker 2: offenders that will masturbate after they've they've killed their victims.

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Speaker 2: You know, Is it a form of denigration to the victim? Potentially,

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Speaker 2: you know, but it's a it's a sexual act. It

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Speaker 2: sounds like they didn't collect these items, these stings. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's like, oh good god, we're talking about all the

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Speaker 2: you know, these these photos of nude women and and

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Speaker 2: and videos of women having sex his bedsheets. That's a

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Speaker 2: huge source of information. There's all sorts of DNA from

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Speaker 2: these various sexual encounters, and most certainly there could be

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Speaker 2: evidence from the offender and stains on that sheet for

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Speaker 2: maybe a prior occasion, if there had been a relationship

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Speaker 2: between the offender. Right now, I'm assuming the offender is male.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if Crane is having sex with men,

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Speaker 2: but I wouldn't end up saying no, that's an impossible

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Speaker 2: because all the subjects of his photos and videos, as

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Speaker 2: far as what you've told me, are women, you know,

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Speaker 2: but you know, is crying somebody that is you know,

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Speaker 2: crossing into homosexual acts. That opens up a whole other

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Speaker 2: suspect pool. And it's like, who has he had sex with?

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Speaker 2: And you can answer that by swabbing his body, by

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Speaker 2: collecting his bed sheets. You know, that is so huge.

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Speaker 2: There's limited number of reasons why people are killed in

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Speaker 2: terms of primary motives, and one of the primary ones

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Speaker 2: is it's who they're having sex with, whether it be

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Speaker 2: a man or a woman. So you need to collect

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Speaker 2: that evidence up front.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's talk about John Carpenter and his relationship

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Speaker 1: with Bob Crane. And yes, we know they didn't collect

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Speaker 1: anything another failing. They did some good things and some

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Speaker 1: bad things here. I mean, I'm glad he had her

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Speaker 1: answer the phone that one time, even though I know

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Speaker 1: it contaminated even more of the crime scene. It was

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Speaker 1: interesting that he called twice, you know, and what his

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Speaker 1: reactions are in all of that. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: forensically they're failing. Scott Stale police are not doing a

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Speaker 1: great job right now.

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Speaker 2: There's a struggle going on there. Yeah, things could have

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Speaker 2: been done better.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the police interview. They are looking

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Speaker 1: at Bob Crane's inner circle, as any police would, and

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Speaker 1: they start talking to a lot of people. They're getting

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Speaker 1: conflicting reports because they really are focusing on John Carpenter,

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Speaker 1: for better or for worse. There were reports that they

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Speaker 1: got along great, these two guys, and there are reports

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Speaker 1: that they had been on the outs, and a few

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Speaker 1: days before Bob's death they were in a heated argument.

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Speaker 1: We don't know about what. And Bob Crane Junior, who

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Speaker 1: was close with his dad, gives police this quote, and

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Speaker 1: I promise this is all going somewhere more than just

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Speaker 1: they probably irritated each other every once in a while.

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Speaker 1: There was an indication just in a passing conversation with

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Speaker 1: my father that John Carpenter coming into town was getting

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Speaker 1: to be a little bit of a pain in the ass.

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Speaker 1: My dad expressed that he just didn't need Carpenter kind

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Speaker 1: of hanging around him anymore. So let me explain what

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Speaker 1: the relationship was like. John had cultivated this transactional relationship

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Speaker 1: between Bob and himself. So for Bob, John has this

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Speaker 1: access to equipment that I'm sure Bob is clueless about.

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Speaker 1: So he gets all of this great equipment for something

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Speaker 1: that he's obviously preoccupied with. And that's a big part

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Speaker 1: of Bob's life, and John gets the proximity to Bob,

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Speaker 1: so he gets Hollywood fun, he gets women and sex.

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Speaker 1: And the men have even taped themselves. I'm assuming they've

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Speaker 1: found these tapes in threesomes, so there is some kind

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Speaker 1: of intimacy. I mean, the range of two men and

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Speaker 1: a woman in a threesome could go, you know, many

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Speaker 1: different directions, but there's certainly an intimacy and a comfort

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Speaker 1: level there with the two men.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like per Crane's son that Bob Crane

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Speaker 2: was starting to say John Carpenter was more of a

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Speaker 2: hanger on and not as desired at this point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in the relationship, and he and his wife were

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Speaker 1: getting back together if we believe the wife, you know,

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Speaker 1: he's in therapy, although I don't know if those tapes

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Speaker 1: say that.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, and so now this this becomes interesting from

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Speaker 2: potentially a motive, you know, was John Carpenter starting to

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Speaker 2: sense that Bob Crane the celebrity, was pulling away from

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Speaker 2: him and that his lifestyle was going to be changing.

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Speaker 2: You no longer have access to the women, to the

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Speaker 2: Hollywood you know, lifestyle, whatever that was with Bob Crane.

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Speaker 2: Did Crane tell him, you know, hey, stop coming around,

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Speaker 2: you know, and now you could have somebody being very

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Speaker 2: upset as a result of it's basically a breakup, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so Carpenter most certainly is an interesting suspect, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I'd say he's a suspect for sure, I just

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Speaker 2: right now. You know. My fear is is that maybe

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Speaker 2: law enforcement so focused in on him that they didn't

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Speaker 2: pursue other leads as rigorously as they possibly should have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it sounds like it. Let me give

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Speaker 1: you a little tiny bit more insight. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is such a gross quote, but the Phoenix New Times

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen seventy eight said women were drawn to

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Speaker 1: the still popular crane like fish to a worm, and

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Speaker 1: Carpenter didn't seem to mind dallying with the leftovers. Gross

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Speaker 1: And so, you know, the theory for the police, which

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Speaker 1: they thought was the strongest of any of these suspects

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Speaker 1: and any other theory they had, was that John was motivated,

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Speaker 1: just like you said, to kill Bob because Bob was

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Speaker 1: stepping back from their friendship. Bob apparently had been saying

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Speaker 1: he was going to try to get back together with

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Speaker 1: his wife. John says none of that is true. He said,

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Speaker 1: I came to Arizona on June twenty fifth, and all

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Speaker 1: of this happened on the twenty ninth, so it sounds

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Speaker 1: like he had been there for three or four days.

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Speaker 1: And he says, look, I was there to do some

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Speaker 1: business and to hang out with Bob. They said, what

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Speaker 1: did you guys do together? He said, we tried to

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Speaker 1: pick up women. So much for therapy and getting back

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Speaker 1: together with your wife. So this is a funny line

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Speaker 1: from Marin. And then I want to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: She said that they tried to pick up women and

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Speaker 1: then Bob was successful. John was not. And the last

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Speaker 1: night that John was in town, he brought a woman

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Speaker 1: back to the hotel and put the moves on her,

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Speaker 1: and at three am, the woman asked to be taken home,

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Speaker 1: so he dropped her off. And he's unaccounted for from

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Speaker 1: three am until eight am when he checks out the

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Speaker 1: hotel and he goes to the airport. So there's this

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Speaker 1: five hour window, according to John, where he could have

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Speaker 1: absolutely carried out.

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Speaker 2: This murder for sure. This also goes to where we

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Speaker 2: know John Carpenter changed the time that he said that

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Speaker 2: he left Bob Crane from one am to two forty

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Speaker 2: five am, and I mentioned what sounds like he's concerned

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Speaker 2: about witness possibly seeing him later than what he stated

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Speaker 2: he was there. And now there's this woman and I

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Speaker 2: don't know if she has ever identified, but his from

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Speaker 2: his perspective, he's seeing an homicide investigation unfold and he's going, oh,

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Speaker 2: they are tracking people down, and they're going to find

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Speaker 2: out about this woman. And she's going to say I

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Speaker 2: was with him several hours past the time that he

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Speaker 2: said that he had actually left Bob Crane. One of

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Speaker 2: the thoughts that I have though, is if John Carpenter

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Speaker 2: is truly enjoying the lifestyle with Bob Crane and Bob

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Speaker 2: Crane is starting to pull away, well, killing Bob Crane

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Speaker 2: basically completely ends that lifestyle, you know, so there is

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Speaker 2: there's an argument to be made that Carpenter would be

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Speaker 2: more motivated to have Crane alive than dead if he

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Speaker 2: wants to have any potential future relationship with Crane and

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Speaker 2: all the various advantages that gives Carpenter in his life.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's you could most certainly see where in

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Speaker 2: a fit of rage, you have a homicide occur because

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Speaker 2: of this. Let's say a breakup between Bob Crane and

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Speaker 2: John Carpenter, and possibly if a tripod was used as

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Speaker 2: a bludgeoning device. This doesn't sound like it's pre planned homicide.

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Speaker 2: He's not coming in with a weapon. He's utilizing something

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Speaker 2: that is found within the apartment. The electrical cord is

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Speaker 2: something that is coming off of a VCR. And I

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Speaker 2: think it's significant that. I mean, I've seen offenders pull

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Speaker 2: electrical cords out of various devices and use them as

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Speaker 2: binding and or ligature material, but it's significant that he's

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Speaker 2: choosing an electronic device. The offender's choosing an electronic device

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Speaker 2: versus maybe drapery cord or something like that. So would

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Speaker 2: that kind of suggest you know, Carpenter is familiar with

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Speaker 2: these electronicquipment. He knew that possibly this VCR has a

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Speaker 2: power cord and that would be very easy to be

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Speaker 2: able to yank out of it, just the way it's

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Speaker 2: attached internally. However, the victimology also just keeps the door

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Speaker 2: open to the possibility that you have the jealous male

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Speaker 2: coming in and taking Bob Crane out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that, like I said, they are

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Speaker 1: really really focused on John Carpenter and just the squishiness

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Speaker 1: of his timeline in general, I think is what gets them.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about evidence. That's what you and I

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Speaker 1: care about. Also, police need to find the rental car

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Speaker 1: that John Carpenter had used. He had been there four

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Speaker 1: or five days, he said, I rented a car. So

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Speaker 1: a few days after Bob is found dead, they finally

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Speaker 1: locate this car and it's having mechanical issues and was

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Speaker 1: being sent to a repair shop, which I think probably

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Speaker 1: would have been a nightmare. Of course, having other people

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Speaker 1: in the car, because it's a rental car would have

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Speaker 1: been bad too. But the police find it, they toe it,

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Speaker 1: and they start looking at some things. So in a minute,

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Speaker 1: I'll have you look at the car. Well, actually, go

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Speaker 1: ahead and look at the car. Now, it's not a Cadillac,

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Speaker 1: but it's a Chrysler Cordoba. I don't know if that

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Speaker 1: looks like a Cadillac, So look on your bump crane photos. Also, Paul,

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Speaker 1: there's a doc I don't I guess I skipped over it.

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Speaker 1: There's a little diagram in there from the police. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you're going to think that's helpful or not.

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Speaker 2: To be frank, this this crime scene sketch is quite artistic.

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Speaker 2: This is unusual.

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Speaker 1: Looks like a like a pro create drawing to me,

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Speaker 1: like a really high level drawing.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is you know, this is where Obviously the

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Speaker 2: person who did this sketch for Scottsdale PD is a

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Speaker 2: talented sketcher. But like if I were the mentor of

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Speaker 2: this person, I'd be slapping him on the back of

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Speaker 2: his head saying, you're taking too long because you're putting

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Speaker 2: in detail that is not needed. He's got the you know,

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Speaker 2: wrinkles in the sheet and shape to the pillow, and

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Speaker 2: it's like, no, you know, this is we need to

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Speaker 2: get moving on this, you know, collecting evidence. We can't

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Speaker 2: be sitting here trying to make a pretty sketch. So

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Speaker 2: this tells me there's a level of inexperience. As good

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Speaker 2: as this sketch appears visually, it's like, no, it's too much,

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Speaker 2: it's overkilled. We have photographs to fill in those details. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So I'm looking at a photograph. It's indicating that this

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Speaker 2: is John Carpenter's Chrysler Cordoba. So this was a rental

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Speaker 2: car and this is you know, your typical boat of

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Speaker 2: a car from the nineteen seventies. Yeah, yeah, it's you know,

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Speaker 2: you got the massive trunk, you probably got a massive

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Speaker 2: front bench seat. It appears to be a Tudor car.

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Speaker 2: This photograph to show in the car from the rear,

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Speaker 2: you know, so I'm seeing the tail lights. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's a massive car. And I know we have this

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Speaker 2: witness that sees what was described as a white Cadillac.

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Speaker 2: White Cadillac look like this back in the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 2: you know, so this is where Okay, this car, this Cordoba,

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Speaker 2: is probably something that would easily be confused for a

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Speaker 2: Cadillac from this this era. So I think you mentioned

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Speaker 2: it when you're talking about the white Cadillac in the

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Speaker 2: first episode that yeah, you could probably you know, throw

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Speaker 2: a rock and hit one because they would be so popular.

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Speaker 2: So it's not I can't put a lot of weight

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Speaker 2: that carpenter has a vehicle that I would say matches

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Speaker 2: what that witness said about a white Cadillac. But it

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Speaker 2: is important evidence in that. Okay, what is found inside here?

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Speaker 2: Is there anything from the crime scene that could be

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Speaker 2: you know, inside to this rental car. You know that

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Speaker 2: today maybe with DNA we could tie back, you know,

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Speaker 2: is there blood transfers or other aspects. Hopefully they did

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Speaker 2: a thorough job processing this.

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Speaker 1: So let me look and go back and forth, so

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Speaker 1: don't skip ahead. But we do have photos kind of everything.

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Speaker 1: Every time I say something, we've got a photo. So

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Speaker 1: first up is going to be in the backseat of

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Speaker 1: the passenger side of what's confirmed to be John Carpenter's

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Speaker 1: rental car, technicians find a small dry blood smear on

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Speaker 1: the switch that rolls the window up and down. John

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Speaker 1: hook says they weren't drops of blood. These were more

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Speaker 1: like streaks or smudges or smears. So that's what you

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Speaker 1: see on page five of your doc.

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Speaker 2: It's important that they're finding blood because you have a

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Speaker 2: homicide victim that is bleeding. So is it possible the

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Speaker 2: offender walked out from that homicide with blood on his person,

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Speaker 2: on his clothing, on an object, let's say the murder

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Speaker 2: weapon that is transferred inside the rental car? For sure. However,

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Speaker 2: at this point it's a rental car. Who else has

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Speaker 2: been inside this car and is bleeding until that blood

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Speaker 2: is owned to be Bob Crane's blood with DNA, you know,

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Speaker 2: for me, it's like, yeah, it's important, but you need

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Speaker 2: to do DNA in order to interpret it as having

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Speaker 2: any relevance to this crime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a couple of other things. So there's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of other stains. I guess if you kind

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Speaker 1: of go through, you'll see there are a few other stains.

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Speaker 1: Blood on a power window switch, you know, blood stains

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Speaker 1: on the passenger door. There is a tissue speck on

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Speaker 1: the door panel, and then there is going to be

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Speaker 1: one more little bit down there that they believe is

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Speaker 1: brain matter that was found in the car.

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Speaker 2: Wait a second, So okay, So this tissue spec on

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Speaker 2: door panel believed to be from Bob Crane's skull lost

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Speaker 2: or never collected.

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Speaker 1: So they took a photo of it but never collected it.

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Speaker 2: What the hell?

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Speaker 1: Well, we've established, Paul that Scottsdale pet is overmatched.

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Speaker 2: Here, So I mean, how can they even say anything

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Speaker 2: about this? Let's see here, I do not know. So

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Speaker 2: I'm zooming in and I see that. You know, there's

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Speaker 2: a ruler that in you know inches American standard measurement ruler,

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Speaker 2: and this red glob is about one sixteenth of an

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Speaker 2: inch in diameter. It's got three dimensions to it. There's

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Speaker 2: a closeup photo of this tissue spec on the next page.

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Speaker 2: When it's initially photoed, you know the coloration, it's looking

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Speaker 2: bright red, and then this close up photo it's looking brown.

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Speaker 2: It's like this globular mass that to be frank. Just

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Speaker 2: from its physical appearance, I couldn't draw any conclusion as

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Speaker 2: to what it is. I have processed, you know, thousands

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Speaker 2: of items for blood for tissue over the course of

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Speaker 2: my career. I've seen them at a crime scenes, seen

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Speaker 2: it on items of evidence within the lab, and this

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Speaker 2: mass could be anything. I literally cannot conclude what it is.

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Speaker 2: And I will tell you I've seen stains on physical

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Speaker 2: evidence that I was like, that's blood, and then I

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Speaker 2: test it and it's not blood. And I've seen stuff,

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Speaker 2: let's say, inside a car. I can think of one

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Speaker 2: thing where I've got this reddish brown it looked like

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Speaker 2: dried blood and tested it and it was not blood.

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Speaker 2: And so that's where you know I have developed a

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Speaker 2: level of cautiousness. I can look. I know what a

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Speaker 2: crime scene looks like. I know what blood looks like,

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Speaker 2: fresh looks like when it's coagulating as it's outside the body.

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Speaker 2: I know what it looks like when it's dry, when

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Speaker 2: it's been subjected to environmental influences. But now there's a

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Speaker 2: photo of this globular mass that they never collect, and

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Speaker 2: they're saying it's coming from Bob Crane's skull.

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Speaker 1: They're not sure. I know, I know, you know.

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Speaker 2: I can't. I personally and I have a level of expertise,

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Speaker 2: I cannot draw that conclusion. It seems like somebody's really

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Speaker 2: reaching on this item of evidence. And there's these other

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Speaker 2: bloodstains in the car. Did they collect those? And has

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Speaker 2: DNA testing been done on those?

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Speaker 1: Let me get you jumping way ahead, buddy, so you

385
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Speaker 1: just hang Remember this is a two part and we're

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Speaker 1: not ten minutes. Let me tell you what they do.

387
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Speaker 1: So thankfully, they do pull a sample of the blood.

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Speaker 1: It is type B rare and Bob is a type B.

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Speaker 1: John is not. Bob says, I have no idea how

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Speaker 1: the blood got in there. I don't know what you're

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Speaker 1: talking about. He volunteers to go back to Arizona. He

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Speaker 1: does not get a lawyer. He says, I'll take a

393
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Speaker 1: lie detector test, and I'll take truth serum sodium pentothl.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so pentothal sure, which just.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like an interesting way to die. Truth serum or

396
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Speaker 1: even go under hypnosis, and he says, I don't have

397
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Speaker 1: anything to hide. You know, the police are very frustrated.

398
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Speaker 1: For years, they remain focused on John Carpenter. The tangible

399
00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: evidence against him is scant, so every so often there's

400
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Speaker 1: a tip. There's a housekeeper at the Scottsdale Hotel where

401
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Speaker 1: John stayed. She found a bloody pillowcase and a washcloth

402
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: in the room he had slept in. But these are

403
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: thrown out, and you know, her dates are kind of off,

404
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 1: so we don't even know if that's where John was.

405
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 1: And then we get to the blood tissue stuff. So

406
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Speaker 1: you know, you saw the photo and we talked a

407
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Speaker 1: little bit about it. The reason this photo comes up

408
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 1: is more than a decade later. So this is in

409
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Speaker 1: the early nineteen nineties. There's a detective named Jim Rains,

410
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Speaker 1: and he looks at the case with fresh eyes and

411
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Speaker 1: finds what Entertainment Weekly calls a previously unseen crime scene

412
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Speaker 1: photo of the rental car. There's no sample, nobody acknowledges

413
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Speaker 1: this brain tissue is what they're calling it. And this

414
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: detective the decade or so later, finds this photo that

415
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: nobody recognizes. He finds medical experts who say that the

416
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: photo there's no negatives. Pull He finds these experts who

417
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: say the photo it shows what appears to be a

418
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: small piece of human tissue stuck to the interior side

419
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: of the passenger door. Their theory is is that John

420
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: beat Bob Crane to death with this tripod, they're assuming,

421
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 1: and then got in the car and carried all of this,

422
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: you know, biological evidence with him. It might have bumped

423
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: or rubbed against the car door, he tossed it in

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Speaker 1: the back, who knows. And that is when they end

425
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Speaker 1: up arresting him with this little discovery right of this

426
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Speaker 1: photograph that you say, we can't even tell whether this

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Speaker 1: is brain tissue or not, but this to them a

428
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Speaker 1: decade later is enough to arrest him. Just so you know,

429
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Speaker 1: he had completed a short stint for molesting his girlfriend's

430
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: ten year old daughter, so they knew.

431
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: Where he was. It sounds like at the very beginning

432
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: of this case that they built against Carpenter. And what

433
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 2: you were laying out is that they did ABO blood

434
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: testing on the bloodstains and it came back type B

435
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 2: and Bob Crane is type B. So I'm just having

436
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 2: to go back to my ABO typing charts.

437
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: I was wondering you. I knew you were listening to me,

438
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: but I was wondering what you were doing at the

439
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: same time.

440
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 2: As an example, then there's a reason why we moved

441
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 2: away from ABO typing, and it's because it's not very discriminating.

442
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 2: Now Type B. You know, it's a smaller percentage of

443
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 2: the population, so there's a little bit more weight that

444
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: can be put on it. But I'm looking at I

445
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: had to go. I have an old book, it's called

446
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 2: The Source Book of Forensics Sorology, but on the fly,

447
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: trying to find what I needed was going to be

448
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: too much, so I'm just going online. And this is

449
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: pretty cool because I didn't have this back in the day.

450
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 2: But they've actually got the percentages of the blood types

451
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 2: per ethnicity, if you will, across the world, and I'm

452
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 2: looking at type B, and depending on where you're at,

453
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 2: it's anywhere from nine percent of a population up to

454
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: I'm seeing as high as thirty five percent, like one

455
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 2: third of the population of certain ethnicities are type B. Basically,

456
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 2: they cannot exclude this blood as being from Bob Crane,

457
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: but I can't put depending on the ethnicity who knows

458
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: who's been bleeding inside this rental car. Depending on the

459
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: ethnicity background, one third of the population of that person's

460
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,959
Speaker 2: ethnic background could be Type B. This is where hopefully

461
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: they still have this evidence and we do modern DNA

462
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 2: testing on it and then say yeah, this is Bob

463
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 2: Crane's blood inside John Carpenter's rental car. Now I'm on

464
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: board right now. It's just like, well, you can't exclude

465
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: all it is is a weak inclusion from a physical evidence.

466
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 2: I'm just talking physical evidence by itself. That blood Type

467
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 2: B inside the rental car is just like, well, I

468
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: can't eliminate Carpenter on that.

469
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: And you know, back then they said when they found

470
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: it in the early nineties, they were saying the estimate

471
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: was one in seven people had Type B. But right

472
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: are they looking at the different ethnicities? And who knows?

473
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 1: Their point is that it's rare enough for John Carpenter

474
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: to still be in their crosshairs, that it was just

475
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: too weird. You know.

476
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: Sure, well then they you know, I was listening, but

477
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 2: they said, this is where the investigator found a previously

478
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: unknown crime scene photo. So let me hear what you

479
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 2: were talking about with that.

480
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: Well, that was the brain matter one that you looked at.

481
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: So the point with that tissue I know I'm putting,

482
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put quotes brain matter. The point of that

483
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: photo is that they didn't keep the evidence. There's no

484
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: way of identifying what that actually is. But it was

485
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: enough to arrest John Carpenter more than a decade after

486
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: Bob Krane's death.

487
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: Again, just speaking from the physical evidence it's been presented. No,

488
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: there isn't probable cause on that. Now, you know the

489
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 2: investigative side, his movement patterns, statements he's making. You know

490
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 2: that all has to factor in as to whether they've

491
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: actually built sufficient probable cause to arrest. I'm not convinced

492
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: that they have that with what you've told me.

493
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what it was like in

494
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: the seventies, but if you rented a car and then

495
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 1: return the car, I would assume they would clean it

496
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: and examine it in between each rental. I mean maybe not.

497
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 2: I'm kidding. You know, I travel a lot. I mean

498
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 2: rental car companies today are very very good, but I

499
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: have had some rentals that are dirty. They're you know,

500
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: they smell like weed. You know, it's it's like really

501
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: you're you're you're not even trying, you know, to clean

502
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: the car. So no, I are the rental car technicians

503
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: really paying that much attention to maybe there's a red

504
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: stain on you know, the window, you'll ever, No, they're not,

505
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 2: you know. So that's just where we know that there's

506
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 2: a transient population that has been in and out of

507
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: this particular car. And so to put any weight on

508
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 2: the blood and that globular mass as being related to

509
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 2: the homicide with the testing that they've done, no, you

510
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: can't draw that conclusion that is right now. I think

511
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: that's on the level of almost absurdity. They need to

512
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: find that evidence and do DNA testing to show it's

513
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: from Bob Crane.

514
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: Okay, here we go. Let's talk about the trial, and

515
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: we do talk about this quote unquote brain matter. So

516
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: John Carpenter goes on trial in ninety four. Bob Crane

517
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: was murreed in seventy eight, So this is what sixteen

518
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: years later, and two pathologists testify for the prosecution. They

519
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: say that a piece of human tissue would shrivel up

520
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: after a few hours on a hot day and a car.

521
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: But based on these photos you know that were taken,

522
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: I guess as soon as they found the car, which

523
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: would have been a few days later. The sample appeared

524
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: fresh more than a day after John turned in the car.

525
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: So I think this was not good for the prosecution

526
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: because they're saying, we didn't find this car on the

527
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,479
Speaker 1: day that his body was discovered. We found it four

528
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: or five days later.

529
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: Right, And that was my observation. I talked about how

530
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,479
Speaker 2: bright red that initial photo was, and then when they

531
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 2: had the close up photo, it's all shriveled up in

532
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: like this brown globular It's almost looks like like these

533
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: this little globular amber like substance. And you know, this

534
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: is where you know, I have to be cautious. I

535
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: can't say it's not tissue, but I'm looking at it,

536
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 2: going that doesn't look like what I have personally witnessed

537
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: in actual homicide cases where I can test it and

538
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: know what it is. You know, It's like I can't

539
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: draw any conclusion as to what that mass is.

540
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well let me tell you. I mean the prosecution

541
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: just gets shamed. I think through this whole trial, there

542
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: are technicians they put on the stand who process the

543
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: car as a crime scene, and they can't remember hardly

544
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: anything about doing this in seventy eight, and they barely

545
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: remember seeing any blood even let alone this tissue on

546
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: the passenger door. So they're useless. So they're out the door.

547
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: The defense then says, you guys can't identify any of

548
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: this stuff based on these photos, and they put a

549
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: DPS Lieutenant colonel on the stand who is supposedly an expert,

550
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: who says, according to the crime Laboratory, even under the

551
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: best of circumstances, it's unlikely that stains or substances can

552
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: be identified as blood, smears or tissue just by looking

553
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: at photographs. Therefore, a confirmation of any stain as being

554
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: blood or tissue requires extensive laboratory testing. Therefore, it must

555
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: be assumed that personal examination of the door panel did

556
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: not reveal tissue, that no evidence was destroyed. So I

557
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: don't know what that means, Like, what was that a

558
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: kernel of popcorn? I mean, what is he saying?

559
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 2: No, well, I mean he's saying. What I'm saying is

560
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: that you can't draw any conclusions from these photographs. You

561
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,239
Speaker 2: have to do testing. The undercurrent about that is for

562
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: people like myself and like this Lieutenant colonel out of

563
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: Arizona DPS lab. We've seen the spectrum, let's say, of

564
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: bloodstains and various colors and forms it takes. And that's

565
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: where you can't say, well, hold on, I've got this here,

566
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: this mass as an example, and that looks like this,

567
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: so therefore it's got to be human tissue. And from

568
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 2: Bob Crane's skulls, there's no way you can jump to

569
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: that conclusion. We have also been fooled ourselves when we go, wow,

570
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 2: that really looks like blood and then we test it

571
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: and it turns out it's not blood, you know. So

572
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: that's fundamentally what he's saying. Now that the last phrase

573
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 2: that you read, I didn't understand the meaning of that.

574
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: And what did he say at the end of.

575
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: Their So he says, you know, the confirmation of any

576
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: stains as being blood or tissue requires extensive laboratory testing.

577
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 2: Which you said golden, yep.

578
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: Yes, he says, Therefore it must be assumed that the

579
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: personal examination of the door panel did not reveal tissue,

580
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: and that there was no evidence that was destroyed because

581
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: it wasn't there to begin with, is what he's saying.

582
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: And then let me tell you what another person says

583
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: that gave me a little bit more perspective. Prosecutors can't

584
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: explain why police reports in seventy eight didn't mention the

585
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: tissue photo or the speck itself, or why there are

586
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: no negatives. A jury is going to be asked to

587
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: believe that an untold number of investigators and prosecutors for

588
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: whom a solution to the famed Crane murder would have

589
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:51,479
Speaker 1: been career crowning as an achievement, never noticed that stinkin photo.

590
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: So I don't know where they think the photo came from,

591
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: but it doesn't sound like it's even remotely a possibility

592
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: that there was a brain spec found in the back

593
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: of the car, because that guy would have been under

594
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: arrest much sooner most likely.

595
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm going back to these these photos. So

596
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: one of the things that I'm looking for is definitely

597
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 2: you know, in the lab, when we take photos of

598
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 2: physical evidence, you know will use a scale so you

599
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: have a sense for the size of the stain or

600
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: whatever you're looking at. But oftentimes the scale will have

601
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: the lab number or the case file number and the

602
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: item number written on it, so the photograph shows it's

603
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 2: from this case and it's from this item. And so

604
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: you know, with what I'm seeing of these photos, there's

605
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: a there's a steel ruler that is being used to

606
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 2: show size of various stains. But there's no markings anywhere

607
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: in these photos within the photo itself to indicate what

608
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: case it's associated with. And that's not to say it's

609
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: these photos are from some other case. It's just that

610
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: that would be something that I, as a reviewer of

611
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: the processing and of the documentation, would be noting. And

612
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 2: I also think it's notable I mentioned it's a steel ruler.

613
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 2: This steel ruler, and this is something you know, back

614
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 2: in the day I'm guilty of, we had plastic ones,

615
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 2: but this is a this is a ruler that is

616
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 2: being used from case to case to case to case.

617
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 2: It's a source of contamination, and this day and age,

618
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 2: we would use something that's disposable so we don't track,

619
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: let's say, DNA from a previous homicide into a current

620
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: homicide that we're working. But it looks like this this

621
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 2: photo of the car door, the inside panel, you know,

622
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: it's so cropped, but it doesn't look like that's currently

623
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 2: attached to the car, So it's like it was removed

624
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: and possibly the entire panel, if not, the entire door

625
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 2: was collected. You know, so this is where Okay, they

626
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 2: say they can't find this evidence, Well, is there a

627
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 2: paper trail? You know, where did it go? If it

628
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 2: went to the lab, did it go from the lab

629
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 2: back to property? Where in property was at place? You know?

630
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: How rigorously have they looked for this evidence. I've got

631
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 2: my own cases, you know, from back in the day,

632
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 2: in which we can't find the evidence. And then you

633
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: find it and it's been placed in the wrong box.

634
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: You have to start rolling up your sleeves and start

635
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 2: going through where it most likely is going to be.

636
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 2: Have they done that? This is such a critical These

637
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: bloodstains inside Carpenter's rental car are so critical. They have

638
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 2: to exhaust everything in terms of trying to find it

639
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 2: because it could prove the case and show that yes,

640
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 2: if Bob Crane's blood is inside Carpenter's rental car, I'm going, okay, yeah,

641
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: he's the killer. But if it comes back and it's

642
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: not even Bob Crane's blood, then it's just spurious and

643
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 2: they got nothing on Carpenter to be frank.

644
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I think you hit the nail on

645
00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: the head because the prosecutor's case fell apart and annoinege

646
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: On Carpenter is acquitted by the jury.

647
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 2: You know, and this is this is a problem.

648
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: And this is not the end. Poll hole, So don't

649
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: you tell me your statement. But don't think this is

650
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: the end. Don't say bye bye. I'm gonna go have

651
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: a drink a bourbon now, because there's more of this.

652
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 2: No, but but this is where, you know, you take

653
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: a weak case to court and you get an acquittal,

654
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 2: you're done. Don't take a weak case like this to

655
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 2: court because now, let's say they do test, they find

656
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 2: those those bloodstains out of Carpenter's rental car, and it

657
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: comes back to Bob Crane. They can't prosecute him. All

658
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: they can say is, well, we now know who the

659
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 2: right killer, the right guy is, but he's free and clear.

660
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: Well he was free and clear for four years and

661
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 1: then he dies. So you know, after that, there are

662
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: of course lots of people who say that John definitely

663
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: was the one who killed Bob with a tripod and

664
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: a VCR cord. And you know, he probably took the

665
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: tripod and folded it up and put it in his

666
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: case and took it back home to LA with them.

667
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,439
Speaker 1: And then there are other people who say, listen, the

668
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: police really dropped the ball here. I don't know if

669
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: they should have called the state police or what, but

670
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 1: that they dropped the ball and they didn't investigate enough.

671
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: And then there are more developments. But what I can

672
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: tell the way you sit up that usually I can

673
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: When you sit up like that, that's how I usually

674
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: can tell you've got something to say.

675
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know. This is where agencies need

676
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: to recognize what they're good at and what they might

677
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: want to reach out for help, you know, and this

678
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 2: case was not handled right based off of what you

679
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 2: told me. But I'm not going to cast I'm not

680
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 2: going to say bad things about Scottsdale PD from nineteen

681
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 2: seventy eight, but I can guarantee that the agency right

682
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: next to them, Phoenix PD, has very experienced investigators, very

683
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 2: experienced csis. This is where you have agreements when you're

684
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: a smaller agency, recognize your weaknesses and get MOUs in

685
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 2: place with the resources that you can pull in when

686
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 2: you have a case like this. And you know, this

687
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: is something that I've seen over and over again, and notably,

688
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: let's say John Bene Ramsay, where you have a smaller

689
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: inexperienced agency who probably should have called in Denver homicide

690
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 2: to be frank, you know, kind of a similar type

691
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 2: of scenario where from the very beginning, it really underscores

692
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 2: that you have to do it right from the very beginning,

693
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 2: otherwise you can possibly just completely kill the case.

694
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you, you know, John Carpenter dies and

695
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: this case goes very cold. So in the mid two

696
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 1: thousand tons, the reporter I told you about, John Hook,

697
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: who wrote the book, was given permission to submit the

698
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: blood samples from John's car using you know more updated

699
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: or using updated DNA processes in which were available during

700
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: earlier phases, which were not available during earlier phases of

701
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: the investigation. So according to Hook, this is what the

702
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: testing concluded, and this is from him. John Hook really

703
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: did think that John Carpenter was responsible for this. The

704
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 1: DNA found on the door of John Carpenter's mental car

705
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 1: is not from Bob Crane. The test actually picked up

706
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: two DNA profiles, a major contributors from a man we

707
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: don't know who he is. The second is from a

708
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: partial profile too degraded to reach any conclusions. So what

709
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,959
Speaker 1: John hook says, is I still think he's the guy

710
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 1: John Carpenter, But I mean the DNA detected and our

711
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: test might be completely unconnected to the crime, might have

712
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: been depositive before after you know, who knows. It's unlikely

713
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: this has anything to do with the crime in general.

714
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 1: But that was the conclusion. And just as a note, Paul,

715
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: they said that. And I don't know if you want

716
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: to call somebody and double check that this is the

717
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: truth or not, but they said that all of the

718
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: samples in Bob's case are done and can't use him anymore.

719
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: They've all been used up, so there's no further DNA

720
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: testing possible.

721
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 2: Well, and I you know, when you start talking about

722
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 2: DNA tech technology in the mid twenty ten range, we're

723
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: talking modern DNA technology. This is where now you have

724
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: the discriminating power. At least with the sample that they

725
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 2: got results on, they've eliminated Bob Crane as being a

726
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: contributor to that bloodstain. Just like what I say it

727
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,919
Speaker 2: was saying before, it's like it's somebody else's. It could

728
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: be somebody else's. It's a rental car. So you know,

729
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 2: it's unfortunate if they've completely consumed the samples that they

730
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: don't have results on. Because the technology from a sensitivity

731
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: standpoint has greatly improved since the twenty ten timeframe, it's

732
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 2: possible with the current law enforcement type of DNA testing

733
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 2: that maybe they could get a result. I guess my

734
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: question would be is why are they saying it's now consumed.

735
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: It's because they consumed the entire extract. Have they consumed,

736
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 2: you know, the swab that they used to collect it.

737
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 2: Do they still have let's say, the door panel. Can

738
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: you go back and reswab that area? But absent being

739
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: able to do that, I think that one test in

740
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 2: and of itself pretty much in all likelihood. Okay, you've

741
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 2: got a bleeder inside this rental car. That's and that

742
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 2: blood is not coming from Bob Crane. Well likely the

743
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 2: other blood stains which have very similar color appearance, you know,

744
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 2: they don't look like they you know from a temporal

745
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 2: standpoint that some of these stains have been there much

746
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: longer than other stains. Likely all those stains are from

747
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 2: that same bleeder that's not Bob Crane, you know. So

748
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 2: this is where the physical evidence against Carpenter, at least

749
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 2: from that rental car is you know, you have to

750
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: throw all of that out. You can't rely upon that

751
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 2: at all, you know, the circumstantial case he is, he's

752
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 2: a suspect. I just don't think that they have enough

753
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 2: to be confident he is one responsible. Do you know

754
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 2: did they ever go out to LA and search Carpenter's residents?

755
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 2: I have an issue maybe with Carpenter bringing a murder

756
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 2: weapon back home with him flying it. You know, I

757
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: would think he would have gotten rid of that somewhere

758
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: in the you know, Scottsdale, Phoenix area.

759
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I was thinking, Paul, what would make those

760
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: stains in the car? Like I guess the theory is

761
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 1: is that he uses a tripod he beats Bob Crane

762
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: to death. It's not that he's using a knife and

763
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: he's cut his hands. It's that the blood was transferred

764
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: from the tripods somehow in the car. But do the

765
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 1: patterns that you saw make sense for flinging a tripod

766
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: into the back of a car. And would he do that?

767
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: To begin with? Why would he do that? It's a

768
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: rental car, you know.

769
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: You know you have one blood stain where obviously you

770
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 2: have a finger that has blood on it that is

771
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 2: being used to operate the window switch, right, that's obvious,

772
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 2: you know. So I would say that chances are as

773
00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 2: those blood stains are being transferred because the person has

774
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: blood on their hands, and not so much that it's

775
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 2: because you've got a bloody tripod that's being flung back there.

776
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 2: It's not going to be touching that part. If it's

777
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: a tripod that's leaving those linear those parallel linear stains

778
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 2: on the bedsheet, that's a significant amount of blood on

779
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 2: the legs of that tripod. And if that is not

780
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 2: cleaned off and that's thrown in the trunk or that's

781
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 2: you know, thrown into the back seat or something, you'd

782
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: probably see some fairly significant transfers if those particular legs

783
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: with blood on them are contacting surfaces within the car versus.

784
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: What I'm seeing in those photos is more consistent with

785
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 2: somebody transferring blood from their fingers. And it may not

786
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 2: be the person's own blood. It could be somebody else,

787
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 2: you know, maybe this car was used in a different homicide,

788
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 2: who knows, you.

789
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: Know, or someone with a bloody nose. My kid gets

790
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 1: bloody noses a lot, so who knows, you know.

791
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 2: Sure you know they've got if they put a bloody

792
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,959
Speaker 2: nose and transfer that onto their fingers. But right now

793
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 2: that blood is irrelevant. It's not related to the crime

794
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 2: per modern DNA testing. So now it's okay, you think

795
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 2: it's John Carpenter. How do you prove it's John Carpenter

796
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: in this day and age, you know, are they going

797
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 2: to get any further circumstantial evidence against him? You know

798
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 2: it's going to be tough.

799
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't see that. I'm assuming they did

800
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: Search's apartment and didn't find anything. They never found the

801
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 1: tripod which was Bob Crane's tripod, if that's what was used,

802
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 1: and so you know, this just becomes a big mystery,

803
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: and that's why it's an unsolved case. I guess the

804
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:43,240
Speaker 1: big movement would be if somebody like a Pole Hooles calls,

805
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: you know, Scottsdale PD and says, do you guys still

806
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: have any biological evidence anywhere, any kind of evidence at

807
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: all from this Bob Crane case.

808
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 2: Well, and that's where I would be going back to

809
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 2: the original. You have to go to the origin of

810
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,720
Speaker 2: the crime, which is Bob Crane's body, where Bob Crane

811
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 2: is killed, and then an outer circle, if you will,

812
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 2: is whatever they collected out of their apartment, how much

813
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 2: Layton processing did they do? Do they have any latents

814
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 2: that are unidentified? Today we always get Layton's out of

815
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 2: houses if we do a decent job, and we always

816
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: find Layton's that we can never identify because you have

817
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 2: so many people that flow in and out of that apartment.

818
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 2: But we have technology today that if they have unidentified latents,

819
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 2: they could identify that person and go that person was.

820
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,919
Speaker 2: You know, like I had one case in GSK where

821
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 2: we got super excited because in the bottom of the

822
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: victim's phone there was an unidentified Layton, and one of

823
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 2: the examiners identified, you know, forty some odd years later,

824
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 2: and then investigation showed that turned out to be a

825
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 2: telephone repairman. That's why his Layton is on that phone.

826
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 2: It's not GSK. But you have to go through those motions.

827
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 2: And so this is where if I were to look

828
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 2: at this case today, it's like I want everything. I

829
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 2: need to see the entire case file, and I need

830
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 2: to see the entire evidence list of what was collected

831
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,959
Speaker 2: back in the day, which should be in the case file.

832
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 2: I would also need to go to property and start

833
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: auditing the property room, like my old property room. For

834
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 2: these old cases, they use three by five index cards

835
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: really kind of a pretty pretty good file system for

836
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 2: back in the day that wasn't computerized. Do you still

837
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: have those cards? And on the back of the card

838
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: would be written information as to this evidence was destroyed

839
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: on such and such a date whatever, you know, so

840
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: you establish a paper trail. If you don't have the

841
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 2: paper trail, that's like, well, where would this evidence normally

842
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: be kept in the property room? And are there cases

843
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: from this era that are in this area. Have you

844
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,439
Speaker 2: guys opened up the boxes to see is there bob

845
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 2: crane evidence that got just put somewhere else where it

846
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 2: shouldn't be. You know, that's just the reality of what

847
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: happens with these old cases. And so this is part

848
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 2: of if I get involved in the case, that's all

849
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: part of the step to compile the current state of

850
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 2: the case at this point in time, in the current

851
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 2: state of the evidence that exists, and then make decisions

852
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: on how to proceed from there.

853
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: It's been a while since I think you've gotten this

854
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: excited about a case, and I understand why. You know,

855
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to think about what the lesson is

856
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: when we do these cases, things that I think about,

857
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: you know, with historical cases, and sometimes I put them

858
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: in a couple of different categories. There's one category where

859
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 1: it's clear the police in the eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds,

860
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: or even in the nineteen seventies want to do everything

861
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: they can. They know they don't have the technology to

862
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: solve this. Now, they collect everything in the best way

863
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: they know how. And then there are the investigators and

864
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: the prosecutors who are doing things that where they should

865
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,399
Speaker 1: know better and they're not doing them. And we've talked

866
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: about climbing over the body to shave it right then

867
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: and there, you know, putting on a case that is

868
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 1: clearly weak based on a photograph that's not going to

869
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: lead you anywhere, and ruining any chance of being able

870
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: to prosecute this guy later on. So you know, there

871
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: are these balances where I look at the investigators in

872
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: the past and just go, man, I'm so sorry that

873
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: you will that you had to attach a magnet to

874
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: a fishing line to try to find a gun in

875
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: a river. I mean that was fortitude. But then there

876
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: are other times where I just think, yeah, you really

877
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: didn't even think about what was going to happen. What

878
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: consequences were of your decisions.

879
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 2: I don't want to just call out incompetence. I think

880
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 2: oftentimes you have very well meaning individuals that are working

881
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 2: a case, but they don't have the experience, they don't

882
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: have the expertise. And that goes back to when you

883
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 2: say the message, you know, this case here, if properly done.

884
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy eight, sexual assault case were being done

885
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 2: on victims' bodies, Fingernail scrapings were being collected, crusty material

886
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 2: from pub care was being collected out of you know,

887
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 2: the agency I worked for in the Bay Area. If

888
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 2: they didn't do that, this is where you go, Okay,

889
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 2: they were in over their heads. And that's where agencies

890
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 2: just need to know what they don't know and be

891
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 2: prepared when they have to recognize I've got a case

892
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: that my agency cannot fully handle. I need outside help

893
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: in order to do this right from the very beginning.

894
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 1: So that's maybe a better takeaway. The better takeaway here

895
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: is get over yourself about taking the lead on a

896
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: case because it's your jurisdiction or it's your town, and

897
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: call and help when you need it. Here, they call

898
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 1: the Texas Rangers. Also, you know, I mean there are

899
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: resources that everyone has certainly more than they used to have,

900
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: I'm assuming. So okay, I like that too. So you know,

901
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: as we move along in our seasons here, I want

902
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: to definitely keep an eye on the really good performances

903
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: that we see, the impressive people. Sometimes you say, I

904
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: didn't know that pathologist figure that out, And I've done

905
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: that too, So I'm surprised sometimes and then sometimes I go,

906
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: don't what is going on with these people? So it's

907
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: good for you to tell me the difference between just

908
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: people who are malicious or don't give a shit versus

909
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 1: the people who just clearly are sort of drowning in

910
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 1: a case that has you know, more to it than

911
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: they can handle.

912
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's for sure, you know. And and most

913
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 2: certainly there are just negligent individuals and law enforcement that

914
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 2: purposely are just lazy and they don't try, you know.

915
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 2: But oftentimes what I see, you know that the general

916
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: population is going to blame that. But oftentimes it's what

917
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 2: I think is going on here is that you know,

918
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 2: it's an experience. Yeah, and maybe you know certain things

919
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: like you know, evidence tracking within the evidence room, property

920
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,879
Speaker 2: room could have been more robust back in the day

921
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 2: than what it sounds like they have, you know, but

922
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 2: I'm not convinced just because I've seen it before. Where

923
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 2: and it's it's because of experience? Is that? Nope, we

924
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 2: can't find the evidence. So the case is done. And

925
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 2: I was like, did you really look, you know? Or

926
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,919
Speaker 2: is your property technician just telling you, hey, there's nothing

927
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 2: on the shelf under that case file number. Then I'd go, well,

928
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 2: you need to go back and you need to look.

929
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 2: It didn't look well.

930
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 1: Next week? Can I guarantee you that we're not going

931
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: to have lazy investigators?

932
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 2: No?

933
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 1: I can't. Will there be investigators, yes, that's about the

934
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: only thing I can say that. We will have people

935
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 1: looking into a crime. And that's it. But every week

936
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: to week, I'm always interested in seeing how you rate

937
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,919
Speaker 1: these people, and you know, some of them I press

938
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: for sure. So we'll see what happens next week.

939
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 2: All right. Again, I'm looking forward to it, and thank

940
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 2: you again for bringing this case to me.

941
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: You got it. This has been an exactly right production

942
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,839
Speaker 1: for our sources and show notes go to exactly right

943
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: dot com, slash Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is

944
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 1: Alexis Emirosi.

945
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

946
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

947
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

948
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:17,280
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

949
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

950
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

951
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: Barry Bones Pod.

952
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

953
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

954
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

955
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold

956
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now