WEBVTT - The Hidden Cost of Perfectionism: Why You Never Feel Good Enough with Ellen Hendriksen 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.480 When you focus on the work for the work's sake. 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:05.440 When you make it about information not evaluation, mean you 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:08.480 don't make it personal about you. Ironically, that's when the 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:16.680 best work gets done. 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.400 Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:24.840 have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:28.520 like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.080 ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:37.720 don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.800 or fear. We see what we don't have instead of 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:43.560 what we do. We think things that hold us back 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:47.000 and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:51.640 our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.920 to make a life worth living. This podcast is about 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.600 how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:00.080 how they feed their good wolf. 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:08.480 Perfectionism isn't about being perfect, it's about never feeling good enough. 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.399 And I think that's a really important distinction. And here's 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:15.560 another tricky part. It often disguises itself as something positive, 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:20.440 like being hard working, detail oriented, or driven. But when conscientiousness, 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:22.679 which is a good quality that many of us have 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:27.280 tips into self criticism. When our striving turns into self doubt, 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:29.880 that's when it becomes a problem. And that's why I 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.319 was excited to talk with Ellen Hendrickson, clinical psychologist and 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:36.560 author of How to Be Enough. She unpacks the sneaky 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.160 ways perfectionism shows up in our lives, whether it's turning 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.600 fun into a chore, a classic of mine, over evaluating everything, 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:49.080 or setting impossible standards. We also dive into how perfectionists 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:53.440 handle mistakes. Some like mister Rogers, embrace them with grace, 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.720 while others like Walt Disney, obsess over every tiny flaw. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:01.840 And we explore why procrastination is only about time management, 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:05.280 it's also about emotion management. If you've ever felt like 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:09.000 you're falling behind, not doing enough, or just not enough, 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.239 stick around. This episode is for you. I'm Eric Zimmer, 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:17.160 and it's time to feed our good wolves. Hi, Ellen, 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:18.440 welcome back to the show. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:20.760 Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be back. 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:23.320 It has been I don't know when we say, six 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:26.200 or seven, a long time, but I remember your interview 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.280 well and we've re released it in the interim because 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:31.360 it was on a topic that a lot of people 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.600 identify with which is social anxiety. And now you're back 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.160 with a new book, which is another topic that I 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:42.519 think a lot of people can identify with, which is perfectionism. 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.359 The book is called How to Be Enough Self Acceptance 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.400 for self critics and Perfectionists. And we'll talk about that 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.880 in a second, but before we do, let's start, like 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.560 we always do, with the parable. In the Parable, there's 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.000 a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.800 in life, there are two wolves inside of us that 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.040 are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.920 represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.640 other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.560 hatred and fear. And the grandshot stops. They think about 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:15.560 it for a second. They look up at their grandparent 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:19.280 and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.799 the one you feed. So I'd like to start off 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.440 by asking you what that parable means to you in 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:26.480 your life and in the work that you do. 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:27.320 Yeah. 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:31.639 So, I was struck by the fact that in the parable, 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:35.520 both of the wolves are wolves, that they look similar, 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:41.160 but they're so fundamentally different. And something that I've learned 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:46.520 through researching and writing this book is that perfectionism can 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.480 be good but can very easily tip over into something 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:55.640 really maladaptive and problematic. But it often looks the same 0:03:55.960 --> 0:04:01.480 on the surface, so helpful perfectionism at its heart a 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:06.600 personality trait called conscientiousness, which is the tendency to do 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.440 things well and thoroughly, to be responsible, to be dutiful, 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:14.200 to care deeply. It's all these wonderful things. I call 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:16.720 it the least sexy superpower. But you know, as far 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.880 as as far as a personality trait like certainly the 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:24.080 one to choose for both objective and subjective success in life, 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:29.360 but it can very quickly tip over into maladaptive perfectionism. 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.760 And there we end up with two pillars. One is 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.240 self criticism and that I think needs no definition, but 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.720 you know, in maladaptive perfectionism is particularly harsh and personalistic. 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:46.120 And then the other pillar is something that you know, 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.520 even as a clinical psychologist, it was a term that 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.719 was new to me. And that's over evaluation. And we 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.640 can talk more about that, but essentially that is when 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.480 we start to conflate our worth with our performance when 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:01.000 we are what we do, and so there, you know, 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.120 forgive my grammar but it's when I did good equals 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.359 I am good, or I did bad equals I am bad. 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:12.760 You know, really similar fundamentals but really different outcomes. 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:14.920 Yeah, I love a couple of things that you said there. 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:18.000 The first is this idea that it looks similar but 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:22.159 is actually different, And I think that's an important point. 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:26.279 And conscientiousness is a great personality trait. It seems to 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:28.480 be one that I am particularly high in, at least 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.360 later in my life. And yet, as you say, it 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.080 can go too far. And I think that's what's interesting 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:38.400 about nearly any trait that we have, is there is 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.760 a case where there's too little of it or there's 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:45.040 too much of it, and those are problematic. Right, too 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.479 little conscientiousness is no good, Right you don't care about 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.960 what you're doing, you just aren't paying attention, or you 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:53.200 just let everything go. Too much of it and it 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.200 cripples you. And so what we're looking for is somewhere 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:58.480 in between. And I think that's one of the things 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.080 the book does a nice job of pointing out, is 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:07.000 that these traits towards perfectionism aren't necessarily bad. It's that 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.480 how we use them and what proportion we keep them 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.880 in and I always think that's a helpful perspective to take, 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.960 because when we think that there's something wrong with us, 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:20.279 or the way we are is wrong, then that's a 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.600 different message than the way we are is fine. We 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:25.920 just might need to turn the knob down a couple 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:27.680 of notches on it from time to time. 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.240 I think you've hit on a really important point that, yes, 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.560 on many of these things, we can change things. We 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.320 can turn the knob down, or maybe on other things 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.640 we might want to turn the knob another way or 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.240 turn a different knob. But yes, there can be some change, 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:45.400 and there can also be some acceptance where we just 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.599 make room for the trait that we think is not 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.560 helpful or problematic but in fact might be just something 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.880 that almost everybody struggles with or something that is just 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.920 how we're wired. So yes, absolutely we can change, and 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:05.279 also we can accept, not like in a resigned way, 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.160 but truly accept like, oh, this is just part of 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.600 who I am, or I come by this honestly, you know. 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.400 And we can certainly talk more about that, especially as 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.239 applied to self criticism later. 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:17.600 Yeah. The one other thing that you say early on 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.240 is we're sort of trying to set up what perfectionism 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:24.680 is You talked about this sort of hypercritical self relationship 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:29.320 and this over identification with meeting standards. But you say 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:33.960 perfectionism isn't about striving for perfection, but about never feeling 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.080 good enough. Say a little bit more about that. 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:37.320 Yeah, absolutely so. 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:42.080 I'm a clinical psychologist at a anxiety specialty center, and 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:47.760 I would say the majority, almost the vast majority of 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.840 clients who come in with you know, anxiety or depression 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:58.440 have perfectionism at the heart of the overlapping center of 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:03.680 the ven diagram of their challenges. But nobody says, hey, Ellen, 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:07.600 I'm a perfectionist. I need help with perfectionism. Everybody comes 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:12.560 in instead and says some variation on I'm not good enough. 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.000 I feel like I'm falling behind. I should be farther 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.960 ahead in life. At this point, I feel like I'm 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.920 always failing. I have a million things on my plate 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.240 and I'm not doing any of them well. So there's 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:30.040 never a sense of striving for perfection. It's always a 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:34.120 sense of not measuring up, of not being enough. 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.079 Let's move on. You have a chapter that talks about 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.920 the many salads of perfectionism. What do you mean there? 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:41.200 Sure? 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.400 Yeah, so like you said before, my last book was 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.760 on social anxiety, and I think that book was easier 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:49.000 is not the right word to use, but it was 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.520 different to write because I think there are I don't know, 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.439 maybe like four or five different sort of phenotypes of 0:08:54.520 --> 0:09:00.120 social anxiety. And with perfectionism, though it's so heterogeneous that 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:03.319 you can line up one hundred people with perfectionism and 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.240 I will show you one hundred different ways of being perfectionistic, 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:10.040 it really comes out in so many ways. Because getting 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.240 back to that pillar of over evaluation, we can over 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:18.360 evaluate anything like our performance could be like, for example, 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.760 like the Striver's student who derives their value from their grades. 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.360 It could be an employee who sees. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:28.120 Their quarterly evaluation like as a referendum not only on 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.000 their work, but on their character. It could be the 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.680 athlete who only feels as good as their last game, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.800 the musician who only feels as good as their last performance. 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:41.160 We can overevaluate our social behavior, hence you know perfectionism 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.720 being the heart of social anxiety, So we could over 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.160 identify with did I say something. 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:47.800 Weird at that party? Was I awkward? 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:51.720 We can overevaluate our reflection in the mirror. The number 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:54.960 on the scale anything. And so I think when I 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.440 talk about the many salads of perfectionism, it gets to 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:03.480 the heart of how whatever we again over evaluate and 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.920 wherever we think, we have to perform as superbly as 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.160 possible to be sufficient as a person. 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.280 First thing is, I would not have identified myself as 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:15.839 someone who is a perfectionist, and I don't know that 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.360 I would after reading this book, but I saw a 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.160 lot of myself in it in different places and in 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:25.640 different ways. And I'd like to talk a little bit 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.080 more about the domains of perfectionism. But let's stay with 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:32.720 this term over evaluation for a second. It's a great term. 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:38.199 It also implies that there's a point where evaluation is good, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.840 and then there's a point where evaluation becomes over evaluation, 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.720 which seems like it might be a difficult thing to discern. 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:51.720 So how do we go about telling when evaluation is positive? So, 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:53.760 for example, if you and I got off this call 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:55.400 and I went back and I looked at it, and 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.160 I thought, well, I could have said this there, and 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:00.920 maybe I could have done that, and boy, the lighting, 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:02.719 we could have changed the lighting a little bit. It 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.640 might have looked a little bit better, right, useful but 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.679 there's a point where that would become unuseful. And maybe 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.400 as a way of talking about over evaluation, you can 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:15.280 take us back to the analogy used to open the 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.240 book between two famous entertainment people. 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.520 Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Of course there's going to 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:24.440 be some overlap. I talk a lot in ven diagrams, 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.319 don't I sell some overlap in that ven diagram of 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:31.439 you know, ourselves and our performance. Of course, we're going 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:35.000 to be proud of, you know, our accomplishments. Of course 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.120 we're going to be bummed if something we did didn't 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:38.520 work out. 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:39.120 That makes sense. 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.600 We're not going to completely separate those two circles. But 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.040 I think when they're almost completely congruent, like whether almost 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.280 completely overlapping, and yeah, that absolutely gets us into trouble 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.640 because then there is no room for mistakes, there's no 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:57.640 room for We can talk about this too, the typical 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.160 advice around perfectionism, which is, you know, you can to 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:03.120 stop when things are good enough. If we feel like 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.360 we are our work, we're not going to settle for 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.800 subpar or mediocre outcomes, because then we're subpar or mediocre. 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:15.640 So what we can do to try to separate that 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.720 is to try to focus on the work for the 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.960 work's sake. And Okay, I'm gonna give you a very 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:24.320 long answer because I'll tell you a story and then 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.760 i'll get into your question about Okay, well Disney, mister Rogers, Okay, 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.600 but first let's talk about Kareem abdul Jabbar and John Wooden. 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:36.000 So there, John Wooden was the legendary coach of UCLA 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.360 basketball for many, many years, and when Kareem of doul 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:43.520 Jabbar was there, the team just had the spectacular record 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:48.120 and to the point where two researchers, doctors rolland Tharpe 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.240 and Ronald Gallimore, decided to sit in the stands for 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.880 every practice of the season to find out like what 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.319 is the secret sauce, like how does coach wouldn't do this? 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:03.520 And what they found is that he very seldom praised 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:10.280 or rebuked his players. Instead, he would basically tell them 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.040 what to do. As a former high school teacher, he 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.600 would do that he would teach, and so he would 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:18.720 say things like pass from the chest, or take lots 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.040 of shots where you might get them in games, run, 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.480 don't walk, pass the ball to someone short. And it 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:28.640 was all about the information as opposed to the evaluation 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.800 that it was about the task, not the player. And 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:35.120 so what Coach Woulden had I think stumbled upon was 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.760 that when you focus on the work for the work's sake, 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.719 when you make it about information not evaluation, when you 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.680 don't make it personal about you, ironically, that's when the 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.440 best work gets done. So there, I think that's one 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:48.559 way to kind of separ out that over evaluation and 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:50.400 simply get back to evaluation. 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:52.800 Let's look at this work, see what is good for 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:53.200 the work. 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:57.400 Okay, then I will get into Walt Disney and mister Rogers. 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.360 So there, this is a nice parallel to the opening 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:04.120 parable with the two wolves because they look the same 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.959 on the surface. So both Walt Disney and mister Rogers 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:15.120 creations are beloved, immortal, and they had really similar personalities. Actually, 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:19.160 they both had really high standards, were pretty intense guys, 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.520 had really driving work ethics, focused on the details. But 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.560 they really lived those traits and values really differently. And 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:32.200 so for example, let's take how they focused on mistakes, 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.520 because I think that gets into the over evaluation. If 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:36.600 you are your work, there's no room for mistakes, right. 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.480 So in the book, I tell the story of mister Rogers. 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:41.600 You know, at the beginning of his show, he does 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.920 his signature of changing out of his blazer and his 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.480 dress shoes to a cardigan and sneakers, and as he's 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.400 buttoning up the cardigan, he realizes that the buttons are 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:57.920 one hole off, and the crew, knowing his standards, totally 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:02.000 expected him to call cut and to refilm. But instead, 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:05.040 on camera he just ad lib re buttoned the sweater 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:09.320 and made a remark about how mistakes happen and moreover 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:13.560 it they can be corrected. So he folded mistakes into 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.760 his high standards, and so by contrast, I also tell 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:20.400 the story of Walt Disney's micromanagement of the making of 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:24.440 Snow White. So there, he just can't bring himself to 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.880 trust this world class team of animators that he had 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.920 so carefully hired, and he makes them redo just tiny 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.600 details like the Queen's eyebrows are too extreme, Grumpy's finger 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.280 is too big, have the hummingbird make four pickups instead 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.360 of six. And at the premiere he tells a reporter, 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:43.520 you know, all I can see is the flaws. I 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.680 wish we could just yank it back and do this 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:50.480 all over again. So instead of its kind of flexibly 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:55.760 folding mistakes into the process. Walt Disney just rigidly tried 0:15:55.800 --> 0:16:00.520 to avoid mistakes. So because again, if you are your work, 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:02.960 of course you're not going to make any room for 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.000 error or believe that they can be corrected. 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:09.160 And you talk about in mister Rogers's case, he uses 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.480 something called guided drift. Say a little bit more about 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:12.960 what that is. 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:14.240 Yeah, I love that concept. 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:19.000 So Fred Rogers was an ordained Presbyterian minister, and he 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:24.400 studied at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, and his mentor there, 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:29.360 William Orr, instilled in him this principle, so guided drift. 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:33.320 So if you can imagine sort of like logs floating. 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:33.840 Down a river. 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.560 The logs can go wherever the current takes them, but 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.040 they are bound by the banks of the river. And 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.760 so the analogy or the metaphor is that, you know, 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.160 stay true to your principles, you know, stay true to 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:50.160 your integrity, but be flexible within that, be open to 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.240 the serendipity of life, be open to where the current 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:57.440 you know, takes you within the confines of your own values. 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.080 I love that idea, and I'm going to apply it 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.920 in a very different way for a second, but I 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.800 talk about this with coaching clients and people I'm trying 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.840 to teach to make change in their life, is that 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.879 you have to do two things sort of simultaneously. One 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:17.560 is you have to be sort of rigid about the fact, 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:19.679 like I'm committed to this, I'm going to find a 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:21.720 way to do it. But then you have to be 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.120 extraordinarily flexible in how you do it. And I love 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:28.280 that idea of guided drift because in this case, the 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:32.080 river banks are moving my body on a regular basis 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.879 as important to my mental and emotional health. That's the bank. 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:38.440 But how I might move my body how much each day, 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.400 how I might need to be flexible, that's the drift 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.239 within that river. And when you try and make it 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:48.760 only one way, the logs can get stopped and get blocked. 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.320 They need to be able to go around obstacles. 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.160 Absolutely. We can think about that in so many ways. 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.160 Like we can think about I don't know, like a. 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.399 Social engagement, So like is the point to sort of 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:04.440 rigidly perform, you know, telling funny stories for our friends 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:08.440 and to get approval, or is the point to connect? 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.359 And like, there's so many different ways we can connect. 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.240 We don't have to, you know, just tell the same 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.880 funny stories, or to perform in a certain way. So yeah, 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:20.520 you can apply this to almost any domain of life, 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.000 which you know, as we're talking about flexibility, you know, 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:24.920 sort of an appropriate example. 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:30.080 Let's talk about the seven domains of perfectionism for a second, 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:32.800 because I think this is useful for us to get 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.920 a sense of the different places and ways this can 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.280 show up for us. So we talked about one of them, 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:45.000 the hypercritical self relationship, We talked about the over evaluation. 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.040 Tell me about the next one that's on this list, 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:49.720 which is orientation. 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:50.920 To rules for sure. 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.680 Yeah, so those of us with perfectionism orient to rules. 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:57.560 We want to know the rules so we can follow them. 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:02.280 And ironically, if they're no rule, we will often set 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.440 up personally demanding rules. We'll make them up and then 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.919 we'll follow those. So think about, you know, making up 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.000 rules for healthy eating, or making up rules like we 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.080 were just talking about exercise, making up rules for how 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.840 we're going to move our body. So rules are not 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:20.480 necessarily bad, you know, we should pay our taxes, you know. 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:21.760 Et cetera. 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:26.320 But it's when the rules become rigid, so we apply 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.000 them no matter the situation, like we try to follow 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:34.720 our healthy eating rules even on Halloween or two they're 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.280 all are nothing. So with that over evaluation, if we 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:44.040 follow the rules acceptably, we are acceptable. But if we 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.200 mess up, if we slip up, we break the rule 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:48.239 or bend the rule, and even the slightest way, it 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.480 renders us on acceptable. So in our healthy eating example, 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.760 I ate a cookie, so I'm bad. I was bad today. 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.080 And then the third way rules can get in our 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.760 way in perfection is when we impose our rules on 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.840 their people, and that can get in the way of 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:07.160 our relationships. So the classic example I hear from you know, couples, 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.240 both in the office and just in my life and 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:11.439 honestly in my own house is how to load the 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.240 dishwasher correctly? Like, what is the right way to load 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:16.000 that dishwasher? 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:18.640 Yeah, this is amazing that this is such a thing. 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:20.879 I mean, my partner and I have it now. We 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.760 have decided that it is utterly irrelevant and so there's 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:28.480 no point in caring. But yet, I mean I opened 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:30.679 the dishwasher and I think, why did she load it 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:32.160 that way? For sure? For sure? 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:34.160 No, Yeah, and like my partner and I have figured 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.159 out if Okay, if you're loading the dishwasher, then you 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:38.520 do it your way like this, it's your task, you 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:40.720 do it however you want. But you know, there are 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.760 many households where that isn't the case. I had a 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:48.600 client who was trusting enough to admit that she was 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:52.280 controlling how her husband made mac and cheese for their kids. 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:54.560 She's like, you can't just dump the pasta back in 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:55.880 after you drain it and then. 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:56.920 Put in the cheese and the butter. 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.200 You gotta keep the pasta in the calendar and then 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:00.600 you know, put in the butter and the cheese and 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:02.639 make that the sauce and then put in the pasta. 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:04.760 And so I'm not saying this to throw harder the bus. 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.560 I'm saying this to be validating that this is what 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.440 happens in households, you know, across America, and that it's 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:13.480 sort of the classic you know, would we rather be 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.239 right or would we rather get along? And you know, 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:18.679 there's not a perfect answer. Sometimes it is better to 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:20.760 be right, sometimes it is better to get along. But anyway, 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:24.920 I'm saying this to be relatable and validating that rules 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:27.400 loom large in the minds of people with perfectionism. 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.280 Yeah. The problem with the dishwasher thing, like letting you 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:32.080 do your thing, is that I'm going to come in 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:34.159 after you and need to put dishes in during the 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:36.120 day and it's going to be all jacked up at 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:40.000 that point, and you know what kind of moron loads No, 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:40.679 I'm just kidding. 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:43.760 Do you have a camera in my house? Just sounds familiar. Yeah, right. 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:46.320 It just cracks me up that like this is such 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:49.080 a common thing and that we actually care when you 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:52.520 look at it from that perspective. How trivial a matter? 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:56.840 You know what could be a more trivial matter than that, really, 0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:02.000 and yet we're going to cause tension and discomfort and 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:05.720 problems in our most important relationship. It's just like you, 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:07.919