1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Just when you think crime cannot will not happen to you, 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: it does in a flash, and there are no second chances. 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: I can't stop predators from coming into this world. I 4 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: can't stop crime all alone, but I can sound the 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: warning and I can pass on to you what I 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: have learned about keeping you and your family safe. And 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: that's why we are announcing a brand new online course, 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: Justice Nation, Crime Stops Here. This brand new five episode 9 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: video series allows you to go at your own pace 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: as world class experts in personal safety and child protection 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: share life saving tips and resources all for you. Get 12 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: action information that you can apply to your everyday life 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: with a focus on preparation not panic. Go to Nancy 14 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: Grace dot com now use promo code Nancy to get 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: off for your sake, for the sake of your children, 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: your family, and the people you love. Know what to do, 17 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: know when to do it, and how to do it. 18 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: Class begins Tuesday, October sixteen. Got to Nancy Grace dot 19 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: com and register using promo code Nancy. Crime Stories with 20 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Do you remember the moment when you heard 21 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: your daughter was a fire victim? Oh? Yes, my own 22 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: real man, It's just like it was yesterday, you know 23 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: it was. I just didn't want to believe it at 24 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: first when they called me, you know, I thought maybe, uh, 25 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, she was just just a little bit, you know, 26 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: uh uh. I couldn't imagine the scale it was, you know. 27 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: And I asked Barry, was she okay? And you know, 28 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: and he got real solid and uh he said, no, man, 29 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: not my whole world failure, you know. In a stunning twist, 30 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: court watchers are amazed the second Jessica Chambers murder trial, 31 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: where a young teen cheerleader out of Mississippi was burned alive, 32 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: has hung. I Meancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank 33 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: you for being with us straight out to to rest. 34 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: April with the Clarion Ledger newspaper reporter on the case 35 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,119 Speaker 1: from the beginning to rest, I don't understand it. Jessicau's 36 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: parents have got to be devastated. Their little girl, their 37 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: teen girl found by a motorist, struggling, wandering down the 38 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: side of the road and nothing but her underwear, her 39 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: body completely charred black, literally the skin hanging off of 40 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: her nose and mouth, and the jury hung helped me 41 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: to rest. I think what you just said is what 42 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: a lot of us felt because um, the prosecution, you know, 43 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: this was a retrial. There was a mistrial last time too, 44 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: and the prosecution brought so much more evidence and had 45 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: a much stronger case, while the defense looked a little 46 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: disorganized and Um. Even as we stood in the parking 47 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: lot with the rest of the media, UM, the consensus was, 48 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: um that you know, he was probably guilty among the 49 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: media folks that were in the parking lot there as 50 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: you kind of as we talked, UM. I think the 51 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: interesting thing was that when they came back hung it 52 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: was like everybody, I just thought, are you kidding? And 53 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: part of it was, you know, after having watched the trial, 54 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: and part of it was do we have to do 55 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: this again again. When you say amongst the media everyone 56 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: thought he was quote probably guilty, I assume what you 57 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: meant to say is that he would probably be found 58 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: guilty because they standard of reasonable doubt. It's a lot 59 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: more than he probably guilty, right right. As an objective journalist, 60 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: I did definitely phrase that wrong, but it was kind 61 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: of what do we think the outcome of this is 62 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: going to be? My you know, all of us were saying, 63 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: you know, my thought is it it's leaning towards guilty 64 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: is going to be the verdict? Well, how did the 65 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: jury act when they came out? They should have been 66 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: hanging their heads. Um they I mean, it was very 67 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: much just they walked out and sat down. And I 68 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: think after after twelve hours roughly of deliberation, UM, they 69 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: had they had called for basically some slides from the presentation. 70 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: They wanted to see him again and um, Paul Ralett 71 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: came out and was able to show them those slides, 72 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: but he was not able to make any commentary. And 73 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: I believe it was maybe twenty thirty minutes after that 74 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: that they came back and said they weren't going to 75 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: be able to make a decision. And and you just 76 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: got the feeling this this jury has listened throughout. They've 77 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: been very attentive, they had asked questions. UM, it did 78 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,679 Speaker 1: appear to be just really they could not agree. Another 79 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: issue is is my understanding neither side asked to Paul 80 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: old the jurars and that that kind of shocked me, 81 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: especially after you know, I really expected at least the 82 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: prosecution to pull the jur's I'm stunned. I am stunned. 83 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: Joining me along with Terress April from the Clarion Ledger newspaper. 84 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: Vincent Hill, cop turned p I, renowned forensics investigator, Joseph 85 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University and 86 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet. Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, 87 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: founder of Child Crime watch dot com, and New York 88 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: psychologists joining us from Manhattan Karen Stark Ashley Wilcott. Never ever, 89 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: in all the trials I've had, which I can't even 90 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: count past a hundred jury trials at least, have I 91 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: ever had a jury trial where the jury was not 92 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:56,119 Speaker 1: pulled at the end, typically by whoever lost. You pull 93 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: the jury, You look who in the eye and make 94 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: each one in to visually say that was my verdict, 95 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: and that was my verdict in the jury room, and 96 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: it is now my verdict. You have to pull the jury. 97 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: What is going on in this court room? I agree 98 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: with you, that's typically what's done. I have no idea 99 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: why they would not pull the jury. It's almost like 100 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: prosecution was in shock and wasn't thinking and doing the 101 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: right legal steps, which is to pull the jury. It's 102 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: wild in this case, Nancy. There's one other thing. I 103 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: just have to say at this point, and that is 104 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: you know, I was covering this for long crime and 105 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: one of the things I kept saying was there too 106 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: many first responders testifying that they heard her say Eric, 107 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: and I still believe that that's the reasonable doubt that 108 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: this jury hangs their hat on. Well, I agree with that. 109 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: To rest April Clary Ledger, please explain what Ashley is 110 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: talking about. Well, there was there were several first responders 111 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: that they brought up, UM, who said that they were 112 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: at the scene and that Jessica had said something that 113 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: sounded like Eric. Now. Last year, when we tried this 114 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: case the first time, UM, the first responders basically the 115 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: prosecution would ask him what you hear her say and 116 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: they'd say, well, she said Eric. Um. This time they 117 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: went as far as to say, well, what did it 118 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: sound like? And were you actually standing there or did 119 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: you you know, did you have to lean down, did 120 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: you get in her face? How far were you from 121 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,559 Speaker 1: you know, things like that. Um. So the prosecution felt 122 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: that they had countered the Eric thing well enough, because 123 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: they also had two experts who said that Jessica would 124 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: have been able to pronounce sounds but not enunciate continents. 125 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: Really well, hold on, let's back it up a minute 126 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: and explain exactly what Ashley Wilcott is talking about. The 127 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: man on trial for the burning murder of Jessica Chambers 128 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: is a long time fell on one of her murder 129 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: in Louisiana of another young girl, and his name is 130 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: Quentin tell Us. Phone records indicate, do they not, Joseph 131 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, that tell Us was with Jessica throughout the 132 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: entire day, even though he lied to cops about where 133 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: he was, and that was shown to the jury on 134 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: videotaped audio taped interrogations, he lied until confronted with phone 135 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: records that place his telephone his cell phone basically on 136 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: top of her cell phone signal. In just within the 137 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: hour or so before her murder. He's with her out 138 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: in a field. Then their phones go to the spot 139 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: where the car is found burned to a crisp. His 140 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: phone goes there. Then video surveillance sees him going into 141 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: his house and to his house and his sister's car 142 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: where he keeps a gas can full of gas and 143 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: a shed, coming out in less than two minutes and 144 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: going toward the scene of the fire. When first responders 145 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: got to Jessica Chambers. They said, who did this to you? 146 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: Her throat and mouth and air passageways were completely charred black, 147 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: and she said something like which was interpreted to be Eric. 148 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: I think it was tell Us, and it's my understanding 149 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: that is what's caused the confusion. Joseph Scott Morgan, that's 150 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: what we're talking about. I'm dumbfounded A share A share 151 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: with Ashley in this in this state of mind, I 152 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: can't imagine it. Electronic triangulation, triangulation of the phone signal. U. Hey, listen, Nancy. 153 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: We have got a mountain. We've got a mountain of 154 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: forensic evidence here, electronic evidence, we've got DNA evidence, we've 155 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: got fire science evidence here that that are all solid 156 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: tie backs. And the fact that this case, that this 157 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: case would literally hang hang on a single utterance that 158 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: this young poor girl uh spoke after her after her 159 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: throat had been absolutely destroyed. And they even tried to 160 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: mitigate this by bringing in a speech pathologist uh to 161 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: to talk to this and they beat this thing to death. 162 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: We're told the jurors were split fifty fifty with their decision. 163 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 1: Half we're going guilty, half we're going not guilty. We 164 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 1: knew throughout the day they were having trouble reaching a 165 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: unanimous verdict, But the state says at this time around, 166 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: they wouldn't have done anything differently. They introduced new witnesses. 167 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: They said that they painted a clearer picture in this trial. 168 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: But the defense is they think the jurors were asked 169 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 1: to jump to different conclusions in order to put tell 170 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: Us at the scene. And of course there's always going 171 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: to be questions tied around Jessica Chamber's final words. Part 172 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: of our system of justice, which we all UH fight 173 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: jealous to protect and preserve, every defendant comes in this 174 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 1: court is entitled to a jury that's as conscientious as 175 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: you are about the jurish rights. And I respect your decisions. 176 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: Your inability to reach your verdict is not meaning that 177 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: you've not done an admirable job, because you have UH 178 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: and this court appreciates it. So with that, I'm gonna 179 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: send you. I'm going to declare a missed trial in 180 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: this case, and I want to send you back to 181 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: your jury room and we'll be sending you home very shortly. 182 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: Penela County Circuit Court Judge Gerald Chatham, announcing the jury 183 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: is hung, I I don't even know what to think. 184 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: Joining me New York psychologist Karen Stark, judge and lawyer, 185 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: founder child crime watch dot Com, Ashley Willcott Dessine, investigator 186 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Morgan, cop turn p I, Vincent Hill, and 187 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: reporter from The Clarion Ledger to rest April. I want 188 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: you to listen to what the speech pathologist Dr Carol 189 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: Higden testify to. You have to have the breadth pressure first, 190 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: so if the lungs are damaged, they're not going to 191 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: be elastic enough to take in the amount of the 192 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: air to allow that to push on through the vocal folds. 193 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: And then the pharyngeal area you said a minute ago, 194 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: exactly what is that? The orangel area is what we 195 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: call our voice box. It's where our vocal folds are, 196 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: are larynx, and if those are damaged by inhalation of 197 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: smoker fire, would that affect the ability to make an 198 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: articulate sound. Yes, it would. The vocal folds are very 199 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: thin and they're very pliable, and if there's anything that 200 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: attaches to those cords, it's going to keep them from 201 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: moving the way they should. I use my hands like this, um, 202 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: but I tell students all the time. You um, the 203 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: cords are to look like this, but if there's anything impinging, 204 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: like a growth or something hanging on the cord, they're 205 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: not going to close and open the way they're supposed to. 206 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: It does. You're hearing speech pathologist Dr Caroline Higden testifying 207 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: in court Jessica Chambers horrific burns would have kept her 208 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: from speaking because her lungs could not have pushed the 209 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: air through her voice box. It's very plain to me. 210 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: I don't understand d Vincent Hill caught turn p I 211 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: what went wrong? I mean to me, the phone records themselves, 212 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: the text of him pestering her all day long for 213 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: sex and her saying no, and then she's found naked 214 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: except for her under where her rear in and the 215 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: soles of her feet were the only things unburned. Clearly 216 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: she had been in that car, forced back on a 217 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: car seat before she was burned alive. There's no doubt 218 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: in my mind who else would it have been but him? 219 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,599 Speaker 1: I agree, Nancy, but I think what the jury was 220 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: up against. And here's why we have the fifty Not 221 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: only did you have the ten first responders saying she said, 222 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: Erica Derrek, the fire chief said, when he asked her name, 223 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: she said Jessica Chambers. So I'm sure half that jury's 224 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: mind you have this speech speech pathologist say, I've got 225 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: Jackie who wa hold on, hold on, hold on, good 226 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 1: looking Jackie. What are you over there? Saying one of 227 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 1: the firefighters said, she said, Jessica. Uh, yeah, she's right, 228 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: Vincent Hill, She's right. When as she said Jessica Chambers, 229 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: she couldn't she enunciate hello, She's right. But my point 230 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: is she was able to articulate enough for him to 231 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: understand the word Jessica. And I think because he knew 232 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: that Karen Stark psychologist, can you do something with Vincent 233 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: Hill plays because they knew she was saying Jessica Chambers, 234 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: because they knew it was Jessica Chambers. So when she 235 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: said Chamber, they knew she meant Chambers, just like when 236 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: she said, oh, I know, she's saying, tell us the 237 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: phone records, tell me who did this thing? You know, Natcy, 238 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: When I think about this, I think it's really a 239 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: shame that anybody asked her any questions at all, because 240 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: that little bit of her attempting to speak and coming 241 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: out with words that they could use to say this 242 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: is what she said, wound up being used against her, 243 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: so that this man who obviously was there and involved, 244 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: doesn't get to serve the sentence that he deserves. And 245 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: I hate to say that because I'm not a jury 246 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't sitting there. But why do you hate to 247 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: say it if you think it's the truth. Why would 248 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: anyone hate to say something they think is the truth. 249 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: The jury didn't find him guilty, and that's so horrific 250 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: given the circumstances that it makes you. I just don't 251 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: even know what to think. Karen could have been served, Karen, 252 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: I got to ask you another question. I'm sitting here 253 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: looking right at a photo of Quentin tell Us, all 254 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: dressed up and well groomed, flanked by all his lawyers 255 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: in court. When I tried cases, I would not even 256 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: look over at the defendant to my right. I would 257 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: not ever even look over there. I would look at 258 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: the jury, which was always too immediately beside council table, 259 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: the state's council table, the witness chair, and the judge. 260 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: Never and now I remember why very distinctly, because it 261 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: absolutely makes me sick to look at his face, and 262 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: no he did this thing, and we know the backdrop 263 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: that he's wonted for another murder in Louisiana of a 264 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: younger student, a young student, Mandy So, Yes, yes, And 265 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: he was with her right before her murder, her torture, murder, 266 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: multiple stab wounds, dead. He has her a t M. 267 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: He's trying to put his own family up to using 268 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: her a t M and getting all the money out 269 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: and those wounds, according to police and Mandy So, we're 270 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: inflicted thirty plus knife wounds to get her to give 271 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: up the a t M password. Oh yeah, see, I 272 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: know that is happening in the back in the backdrop, 273 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: I know this guy's criminal history which the jury didn't know, 274 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: and I know most importantly the phone records. And you 275 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: gotta ask, you gotta ask to Askly Wilcott. You're a judge, 276 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: you're a lawyer. Why would he lie to police? Why 277 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: lie about it? If you're trying to find the killer 278 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: of a girl you know and a girl you claimed 279 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: to be friends with, why wouldn't you tell the truth. 280 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: Why would you lie? Oh, you lie because you're covering up. 281 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: You lie because you did it and you don't want 282 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: to get caught And you. Once you lie, you can't 283 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: remember what story you told, so you continue to lie, 284 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: which he continued to do in this case. I think 285 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: that's clearly indicative of the fact that he committed this. Quell. 286 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: Somebody agrees with you besides me h t F Agent 287 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: Scott Meadows. Listen to his testimony in this particular case. 288 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: Do you believe that Quintin was being deceptive purposely? I do, indeed, yes, sir. 289 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: And when would Quinton change the deception that he was 290 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: putting on y'all in the videos? One confronted with the 291 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: evidence and once you confronted him with the evidence, did 292 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: he agree with what you confronted him with? His story 293 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: changed to match what he was just Sean And through 294 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: the years of dealing with with interviews, do people have 295 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: a reason to lie are being deceptive? They do? And 296 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: what would would that reason? Because they're guilty now to 297 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: to rest April with the clarion Ledger, can tell us 298 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: be tried again? Yes he can, and I think right 299 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: now there's a lot of hard decisions being made about that. 300 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: With the case in Louisiana, he's going straight back there 301 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: and they're gonna They've got a couple of other charges 302 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: on him in addition to what's going on with um 303 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: the other murder. And so I guess they're gonna wait 304 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: and see what's going on with Louisiana, how that pans out, 305 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: before they really focused on trying tell us here in 306 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: Mississippi again, Well, I tell you, I really believe at 307 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: this juncture to you, Ashley Willcott, that they need to 308 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 1: bring in a special prosecutor. I'm volunteering myself to go 309 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: and try this case and try to get a guilty verdict. 310 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: And I mean that because something is not working with 311 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: the prosecution. I don't know if it's the jury selection, 312 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. But this guy brutally 313 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: murder Jessica Chambers, probably raped or two, although he's not 314 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: charged with it. Ashley, I think that they have to 315 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: do something different. I agree with you completely because the 316 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: other piece of this is they even this second child, 317 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: did something different. They tried to get rid of the hole. 318 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: She said, Eric to first responders is the person who 319 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: did it. By actually having an expert testify, it wasn't 320 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: possible for her to articulate that whether or not you 321 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: agree with that expert, they win an extra step to 322 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: try to present the evidence the best that they could, 323 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: but they're still not getting a conviction. So something needs 324 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: to be different, done differently. Perhaps another change of venue 325 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: is something they need to consider along with the special prosecutor. 326 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: What haunts me is hearing Ben Chambers telling me about 327 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: how he raced to the hospital, beating a helicopter to 328 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: get to his daughter and never got to speak to 329 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: her before she died. You know what, this guy needs 330 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: to be in jail in Mississippi. Doesn't need to count 331 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: on Louisiana to do their duty. To call a little 332 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: bit after one o'clock from one what we believed to 333 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: be one of the victims saying that her sister was 334 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: trying to stab her. A fifteen year old girl now 335 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: accused of fatally stabbing her mother and sister dead. How 336 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: does this happen? Limestone County Sheriff's Office spokespersus Stephen Young 337 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: says the teen is being charged as a juvenile. What 338 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: went wrong? Joining me from the jurisdiction talk show host 339 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: David mac David, what do we know? As you mentioned, 340 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: they are treating her as a juvenile, which means they're 341 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: stealing everything. It's all difficult to get information. However, we 342 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: didn't know that the that the nine one one call 343 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 1: that was heard. They could hear the mother and the 344 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: older's daughter pleading for her to police stop. When police arrived. 345 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: They had been to the house before. They had had 346 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: other involvement with this family in the past over domestic 347 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: violence issues, and when police showed up, the fifteen year 348 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: old was stabbing herself in the head, the neck, and 349 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: the chest. What we know right now is that a 350 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: mother and a daughter are both dead. Investigators say they 351 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: have an audio recording of the girl, the teen girl, 352 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: brutally murdering her teen sister and her mother, but they 353 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: have no idea what sparked this. The stabbing death of 354 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: Rosa and daughter Rosa have just occurred, and it was 355 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: moments after the teen girl victim calls nine one one. 356 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: You hear the girl begging and pleading for help, and 357 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: you hear the mother actually taking her last breath and 358 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: dying on the phone. Joining me right now. Renowned psychologist 359 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: Dr Karen Stark, medical examiner out of the Fulton County Jurisdiction. 360 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: Dr Jan Gorniac talk show hosted David mac, forensics expert 361 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: Karen Smith and crime Online Dot com investigative reporter Larry 362 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: may Her Karen Stark, It's really hard for me to 363 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: believe there were no warning signs this was going to 364 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: happen with a seen girl, Nancy. There had to have 365 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: been learning science, and I can't imagine that Bill were none, 366 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 1: just like you, because this is somebody who in fact 367 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: has she's a sociotat, she's able to kill. So you 368 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: see those kinds of signs very early on. They needed 369 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: to look at what was happening in school and happened 370 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: when she was around animals. You know, all the things 371 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: that we look for when you're talking about someone who 372 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: is capable of committing murder. The teen sister quote had 373 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: a great smile, just beautiful. One of the recollections a 374 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: teacher at her school said is that how much she 375 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: loved and took care of all her friends, that if 376 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: you were her friend, quote, you were well cared for. 377 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering about the sibling relationship, you know, because 378 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: I noticed Karen start whenever I say, oh, John David, 379 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: you're so precious, Lucy says, am I precious? Or you know, 380 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: it's just is so funny how much the sibling rivalry 381 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,239 Speaker 1: bruise just beneath the surface, even in good fun, and 382 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: this is erupted to a fifteen year old girl stabbing 383 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: her teen sister dad and the mother too. That's that's 384 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: how you know, Nancy, that they're psychosis involved in this, 385 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: that it's much more than just regular sibling rivalry. Because yes, 386 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: siblings are competitive, that's not unusual and you see it 387 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: all the time. But when you have a situation like 388 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: this where it gets to the point where she's killing 389 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: her sister, that means that this person has extreme emotional problems. 390 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: You're not talking about somebody who's just a teenager going 391 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: through the usual trous and tribulations that teenagers go through. 392 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying it's a mental illness where she 393 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: didn't know right from wrong, but it certainly speaks to 394 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: antisocial personality and someone who has the capacity to kill 395 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: because they can't deal with their rage and jealousy. You know, 396 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: I'm looking at a photo right now of the mother, 397 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: Rosa and the team girl that is now dead, and 398 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: they're both so beautiful. Nobody has any idea what sparked this. 399 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: The last moments of their lives were caught on a 400 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: nine one one column that we are not playing. To 401 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: Dr Jeanne Gorniac joining us the defendant. The suspect was 402 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: found in the home with very superficial cuts to her 403 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: own body after she murders her mom and sister. What 404 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: does that mean? Superficial cuts to her body? Um? Superficial 405 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: means that they didn't go deep. So it's just like 406 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: more of like a scrape. Um whether it's from I'm 407 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: not sure if it's from the sharp force injury or 408 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: the sharp force implement that they used to injure her 409 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: her mom and her sister. Or does she have an 410 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: abrasion on her knee? Um? Was there a sign of 411 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: a struggle or um? A sign of a struggle? That's 412 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: all I could say. Um, So superficial meaning they're not deep, 413 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: They're not they're not fatal, they're not um future or 414 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: anything like that. To Karen Smith, a forensics expert, joining 415 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: us out of the floor to jurisdiction, Karen, when we 416 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: look at the crime, when we look at the scene, 417 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: what will we be able to tell about how this 418 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: incident went down? Well, the blood evidence is going to 419 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: be key. You can tell from blood evidence where the 420 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: perpetrator may have been in relation to the victim. When 421 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: you have a stabbing that is a close quarter combat situation, 422 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: you have to be right up on the person. So 423 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: when you look at the blood spatter, is it close 424 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: to the floor, is it up on the walls, is 425 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: it on the furniture? Was their movement? Was there a 426 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: pursuit through the house after one of the victims? Those 427 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: are going to be key elements to tell where it started, 428 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: where it ended, where people moved during the situation. You know, 429 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: the number of stab wounds is going to be telling 430 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: as well. Where the victims were stabbed on their body? Now, 431 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: was it in the back, was it in the front? 432 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: Was it in their neck? Was it in their legs? 433 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: Um are their defensive wounds? And this young girl who 434 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: apparently perpetrated this crime, they're going to be looking closely 435 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: at her injuries as well. And to Dr Jane Gourney Act, 436 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: following up on what Karen Smith has just told us, 437 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: Dr Gourney Act, She's right. If you're looking at where 438 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: their stab wounds in the back and where they found 439 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: lying on their back, that would suggest to me that 440 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: the attack first started from behind. We also know Dr 441 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: Gourney at that on the No One call, you can 442 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: hear the victims begging her to stop stabbing them, the 443 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: mother and her teen girl. Dr Gourney at you cannot 444 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: date stab wounds, like tell which one was first, or 445 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: can you? Nancy, You're actually correct, we cannot tell which 446 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: one came came first. One thing that's important, Like you said, 447 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: I mean there could be stab wounds in the back. 448 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean those who are inflicted first. Obviously people 449 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: are going to turn to get away from it. So 450 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: he's gonna have stab wounds or in size wounds of 451 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,479 Speaker 1: the hands or defensive wounds and then they're trying to 452 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: turn around. But also depending on where that stab wound 453 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: is in the back, isn't immediately fatal. So someone actually 454 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: talking and saying stopped, you know hearing that doesn't mean 455 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: they weren't stabbed at the time. Um, but they could 456 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: have had fatal injury. They just hadn't succumb to them 457 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: at that time. Joining me is Larry may Her Crime 458 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: Online dot Com investigative reporter Larry What more do we know? Nancy? 459 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: Deputy say the evidence that they collected from the scene 460 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: suggests the fifteen year old was actually cutting on herself, 461 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: trying to commit suicide. Apparently when the attack began, that 462 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: she apparently turned the knife on her sister and mother 463 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: when they found her cutting herself. She has been charged 464 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: with two counts of capital murder, and as we have 465 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, she's being charged as a juvenile, which means 466 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: her name is not being made public and most of 467 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: the record about the crime scene has been sealed. We 468 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: have laur into that while the victims are begging their 469 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: attack or their sister or daughter to stop, several knives 470 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: were used in the double homicide. So this team girl 471 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: was armed with multiple knives as she killed her mother 472 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: and her sister. Take a listen to the Limestone County 473 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: Sheriff Mike Blakely speaking to w h N T my 474 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: four seven years long enforce. Probably one of the worst 475 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: calls that I've said and listened to, Probably one of 476 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: the more fattest situations I've ever seen. As you know, 477 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: we had a six month baby. Uh. It was a 478 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: victim of a first degree murder, uh in a fire. 479 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: We have arrested one female in that case. The investigation 480 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: is still ongoing. Which did the did the suspect, no, 481 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: the family know the mother? Do we do we know 482 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: anything about that? Yet yes, this individual had a relationship 483 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: with the family and it certainly had access to the child. Um, 484 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: so you know, we're still betting through those things. But lady, 485 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: it wasn't a random wasn't a random act, which is 486 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: which is important for us to put out. It certainly 487 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: was an individual who knew the child and had access 488 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: to the child. A woman twenty five years old allegedly 489 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: kidnaps a baby boy along with two men, then set 490 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: the little baby on fire, leaving him to die on 491 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: a Louisiana railroad track. I want justice. I mean, you see, grace, 492 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us. 493 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: Take a listen to this neighbor. Initial non War one 494 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: call went out at ninetien. You were outside, so it 495 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: had to be like a thirty forty five. And if 496 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,719 Speaker 1: you someone just came and took your baby, I'm pretty 497 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: sure we would have saw it or heard it or anything. 498 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: We did not see nothing. The only time we saw 499 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: her when she was running to the manager's office and 500 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: knocking on the door. You are hearing a neighbor describing 501 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: the actions of the mom that night. Joining me right now, 502 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Lauren Howard, 503 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: renowned New York psychotherapist, Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, author 504 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, professor for ASICs 505 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, and Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina lawyer joining 506 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: me right now. Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Larry 507 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: Mayher Larry start at the beginning. How does a tiny 508 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: infant end up being burned alive on railroad tracks? The 509 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: story began with a call from the child's mother, who 510 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: claimed that two men had kicked in her door, splashed 511 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: her in the face with a caustic material like maze, 512 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: and then made off with her child, and the child 513 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: was found a mile or so away on fire. To 514 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum, Cold Case Research Institute Director, I find that 515 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: very odd for two men to show up at the 516 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: front door spray you in the face with macer pepper 517 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: spray to get your baby for what, just to burn 518 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: it alive? And I know the baby was alive at 519 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: the time. I wish it had not been, but it 520 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: was airlifted to the hospital in the hopes of saving it, 521 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: so it had to be alive. When E. M. T. 522 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 1: S Got to the fire. Correct, Nancy, the idea that 523 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: two men that are unknown to her would pray her 524 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: in the taste of what she believes was made or 525 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: said it was, and that she ran well if made 526 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: impeded her vision at all, She ran where and left 527 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: her children behind in great danger. And not one but 528 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: two men, Like you said, I decided to take only 529 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: one of the children and murder him for what reason? 530 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: And such a horrific man too. Just got Morgan, You 531 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: make a living as a death investigator. Way in on 532 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: the scene of the fire. Yeah, you've got you've got 533 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: a Just imagine, Nancy, You've got a a fully involved 534 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: fire of all child sitting where the small child is 535 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: literally is literally the fuel for this fire in the 536 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: midst of a railroad track. It's gonna be very specific. 537 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: They apparently dousted this child in gasoline. There will be 538 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: a very specific burn area uh where the child was 539 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: seated and as well as well as uh, the child 540 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: itself uh is just crusted, crusted as a result of 541 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: of being burned. At this point in time. Uh. It 542 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: boggles the imagination relative to this and the evidence that 543 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: they're that they're that they're going to collect at the 544 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: scene will involved. UH will involve collection of of of 545 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: accelerance and anything else that's left behind, like the clothing 546 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: that may have been burned off the body. But then 547 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: they take the child, airlift the child to Shreeport, which 548 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: is really not that far away from Nackadish and the 549 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: child was pronounced dead at the hospital, so they will 550 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: have had to go to the hospital and collect evidence 551 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: there as well. To Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, Kathleen, 552 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: I hear infants being stolen or tricking the mom out 553 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: of getting giving handing over the baby to sell the 554 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: baby or keep the baby as their own um. But 555 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: I don't understand taking the baby just to kill the 556 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: baby in such a gruesome man. Baby's name was Levi 557 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: and I am stick to my stomach to hear about this. 558 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: She poured dasoline all over him, burned him alive, turned 559 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: around and went to work. Smith worked a few miles 560 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: away at Iha. She walked into work like any other day, 561 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: like nothing was wrong, except back on Brita Road, a 562 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: fire was region. First responders found Levi on his stomach 563 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: in the fire of his little body was burned. That 564 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: is Josh Rogers from KTBSTV describing what Felicia Smith apparently 565 00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: told investigators about baby Levi's horrific death. Now Here's Josh 566 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: at KTBS examining the relationship between the woman accused of 567 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 1: killing baby Levi and Levi's own mother from the ashes 568 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: of the fire, the mystery emerged, who is Felicia Smith? 569 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: Why did investigators arrest her? And Levi's death? More investigating 570 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: by KATVS revealed Barker and Smith were girlfriends, romantically involved, 571 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: and a newborn baby is a large time commitment, sources 572 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: tell KTBS. Jealousy may have gotten the best of Smith, 573 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: so she sought a solution. A handwritten note in a 574 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: court record says Smith confessed and now breaking news in 575 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: the case. At first police have now arrested the mother 576 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: of a six month old killed in a fire, and 577 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: Nakadish Parish and the Louisiana State Fire Marshal's Office as 578 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 1: twenty two year old Hannah Barker was arrested and charged 579 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 1: with first degree murder. Earlier this week, twenty five year 580 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: old Felicia Smith was also arrested in the death of 581 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: six month old Levi ller By. Police now say she 582 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: could face an other charge on top of the first 583 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: degree murder charge. Police are telling us that Smith and 584 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: Barker knew each other before the homicide. We talked with 585 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: the Louisiana State Fire Marshal who says more rest could 586 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: be coming. Our biggest responsibility and in the co Marshal's 587 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: office when there's a fire, but more importantly the situation 588 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: here where there's been a desk is it. We owe 589 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: the facts to not only the family, the friends, but 590 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: the public and I'm very proud of that. The method 591 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: in which we're seeking any sacks and making sure we 592 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: get it right. That is from our friends at k 593 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 1: s l A reporting the arrest of the mother as 594 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: well Larry mayher Wig in a fire Marshal's investigator testified 595 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: at a bond hearing that Smith is identified as a 596 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: girlfriend romantically of the mother, Hannah Barker. Smith confessed to 597 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: setting the baby on fire. According to the investigator, Smith 598 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,439 Speaker 1: says she did it on instructions from the baby's mother. 599 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: Smith says killing a little Levi was all Hannah Barker's idea, 600 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: initially saying she wanted him shot to death and then 601 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: to bird him until quote he was bones unquote. Smith 602 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: says she put Levi on the ground next to the 603 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: railroad track, poured gasoline on him, set him on fire, 604 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: and then went to work her regular shift at an 605 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: IHAP restaurant. Kathleen Murphy family lawyer out of North Carolina, 606 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: I firmly believe this is a death penalty case. What 607 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: do you think I do? I agree with that completely 608 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,800 Speaker 1: to say that that she was not a part of 609 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: this and that she was sprayed with mace, But there's 610 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: no mace, no chemical um uh that was found at 611 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: the crime scene. The clear motive in this case is 612 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: that she asked this woman, would you do anything for me? 613 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: Even kill Levi? And I think it's adding up. She's 614 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: changed her story so many times, and she was part 615 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 1: of this investigation, a part of this crime. We wait 616 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: as justice unfolds Nancy Grace's crime story, signing off goodbye friend.