1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M 4 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Our 5 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: trustee co host nol is off on a completely non 6 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: sketchy mission, but will be returning. They called me Ben. 7 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: We're joined with our super producer Paul Decan. Give him 8 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: a hand, Folks, friends and neighbors, but most importantly, give 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: a hand to yourself. You are here, You are you, 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Today, Matt, 11 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: you and I are diving into a crucial event in 12 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: American history, one that, despite quite possibly changing the course 13 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: of American politics, is relatively obscure to a lot of 14 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: people living today, especially younger members of our audience. Yes, you, 15 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: you and I know about this because we've been paid 16 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: to delve into historical strangeness for quite a time now, 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: and a lot of people listening are going to be 18 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: familiar with the story we discussed today because of their 19 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: interest in these things. But overall the American public is, 20 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: maybe especially younger people, are not aware of this. Uh. 21 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: It's something that happened on July eighth, nine sixty nine, 22 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: one day, essentially one night, and it changed the course 23 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: of one man's life, uh quite a bit. And today 24 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: we have two gentlemen on the show who wrote an 25 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: entire screenplay about that day and the aftermath, why it occurred, 26 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: what occurred, and UM, we're we're going to jump right 27 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: in and introduce them right now. That's great, the screenwriters 28 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: of chap Aquittic, Taylor Allen and Andrew Logan. Welcome to 29 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: the show, gentlemen, Thank you so much for joining us today. 30 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for happy for having I was 31 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: really excited to be here. So let's jump right in, 32 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: and today we're discussing the Kennedy Family, an American institution, 33 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: a group of people who have captured the fascination of 34 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: Americans for decades upon decades. And let's first start off 35 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: by discussing just how powerful the Kennedy institution was in 36 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties. So, yeah, the Kennedy family, UM, you know, 37 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: was u for sure, you know, one of the most 38 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: powerful families and American politics in the um. John F. 39 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 1: Kennedy was obviously president in the early sixties and Robert F. 40 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: Kennedy was running for president in nine when he was 41 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: tragically assassinated, and our story takes place the year after 42 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: UM Bobby's assassination a year later, when his younger brother 43 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: Ted Kennedy goes to U at Marcus Vineyards to have 44 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: a to host a party for a group of women 45 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: called the boiler Room Girls, who are actually Bobby Kennedy 46 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: uh campaign a um. And they were there to sort 47 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: of uh, you know, celebrate the memory of the you know, 48 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: recently deceased an older Kennedy brother. And much has been 49 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: made over the tone or the atmosphere of this gathering. 50 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: We know that there were let's see, what were there 51 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: four boiler room girls in attendance at this time, six 52 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: spoiler room girls actually, and they were all single and 53 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: the five of the men that were there were all married, 54 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: which led to a lot of um surlous rumors and 55 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: headlines about what that might mean because of the more 56 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: rays at the time in the late nineteen sixty UM. 57 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: But one thing that is good to get on the 58 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: record now is that, as Andrew said, the boiler room 59 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: girls were campaign workers and UM strategists, honestly, and that 60 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: in the newspapers at the time, they were often mischaracterized 61 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: as secretaries, and I think that that added to the 62 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: sort of humor and misinformation that had taken prominence in 63 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: the press at the time, because honestly, these were very smart, 64 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: very capable women, and they were very close with the 65 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: Kennedy family because of how skilled they were and how 66 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: close they became with the Senator Robert F. Kennedy over 67 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: the prior year. Do you do you feel that the 68 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: newspapers and media outlets of the time were pursuing a 69 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: salacious angle with the with the goal of maybe making 70 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: the the gathering seem more lurid than it actually was 71 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: with this, you know, with this mischaracterization as secretaries versus strategists. Undoubtedly, 72 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: I think that that was where people's minds went, and 73 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: I think that it was covered that way in part 74 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: to push newspapers, but in part just because of um 75 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: a problem that you know, is still a problem today 76 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: where you try to present both sides of the argument, 77 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: and at the end of the day, there was no foundation, 78 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: in fact, uh in discernible truth, that anything immoral was happening. 79 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: It was simply a party, It was simply a reunion, 80 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: and there was nothing else to it other than that 81 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: there was kind of a history at least with John F. 82 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: Kennedy and a little bit with Robert in having um 83 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: interactions with women outside of their marriage. So for you know, 84 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: there was something to it. But but as you said, 85 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: probably wasn't actually anything salacious. UM. So who who specifically 86 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: one of the boiler room girls who was Mary Joe Capecney. 87 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: Mary Joe Capecne is the victim in this case. UM. 88 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: She ends up, you know, dying as a result of 89 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: uh actions that Ted Kennedy took and didn't take. And 90 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: for us, when we were researching her, what we found was, 91 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: you know, the most brilliant and you know, a woman 92 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: of the highest standard. Um. And it was really a 93 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: life cut way too short. And so that's why in 94 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: the movie we really tried to honor her memory by 95 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: having her express all of her talent, to show how 96 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: everyone around her thoughts she was so talented, and to 97 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: show how she really did have a lot of dreams 98 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: and ambitions. And one of the lines that I quite 99 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: like is when she describes the difference between politics and 100 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: public service and uh in speaking with the family about 101 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: her Um, she was definitely not in it for the politics. 102 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: She was in it to serve the public interests. And 103 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: I really appreciate the point you make about a life 104 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: cut short, because she was twenty eight on the night 105 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: of this incident. And when we, like many others, look 106 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: back at the timeline, what we see is that for 107 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: many years afterwards, questions remained. Could you could you walk 108 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: us through briefly the the timeline, the events and the 109 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: order in which we believe they transpired after Kennedy and 110 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: Capecni left the gathering. Okay, so I'm going to try 111 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: to walk this through as simply as possible while pointing out, um, 112 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: what is on the record and by whom. Um. They 113 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: were there in Martha's vineyard that weekend for the edgar 114 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: Town Regatta. Uh and Ted Kennedy came in night that 115 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: day and after the race they went back to Chappaquittic Island, 116 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: which important to the story, is a ferry ride off 117 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: of the mainland. Uh. There's no way to access it 118 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: other than by ferry, and UM, no one was planning 119 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: on staying at chappa Quittic that evening. Uh. Ted Kennedy 120 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: had a room in Edgartown at the Shiretown Inn. UH. 121 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: All the boiler room girls had a room at a 122 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: different hotel on the mainland. And the only person I 123 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: think that was actually going to stay on Chappquittic Island 124 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: was the person who arranged for the party, and that 125 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: was Ted Kennedy's cousin, Joe Garden, and he becomes very 126 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: important the story as we continue. As we said, the 127 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: party was simply that a cookout with friends. Reminiscing music 128 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: was played. We now we assumed there was dancing. Ultimately, 129 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: one of the boiler room girls asked us to cut 130 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: out the dancing, so there's no dancing in the movie anymore. Uh. 131 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: And what Ted Kennedy has said and what many of 132 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: the boiler room girls said under oath, was that Ted 133 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: Kennedy and Mary Joe left at eleven fifteen. Ted Kennedy 134 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: has said that Mary Joe said that she wasn't feeling 135 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: well and that he was taking her back to her hotel. 136 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if we're getting too deep into the 137 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: weeds here, but I'll tell you that Mary Joe left 138 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: her purse with her hotel room key at the cottage, 139 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: and so it leads to questions about how she was 140 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,599 Speaker 1: expecting to get into her room if that was the 141 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: taste um. Ted Kennedy says that the accident happened shortly 142 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: thereafter after he made a wrong turn turn off of 143 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: Main Road onto Dike Road. UM. This is again a 144 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: very complicated thing to try to describe an audio, but uh, 145 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: to say that this was a mistaken turn is a 146 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: little bit stretching credulity. Because Main Road is a paved road, 147 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: it is obviously the way that you would go to 148 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: get to the ferry. Tamy has been back and forth 149 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: on the ferry multiple times that day and probably hadn't 150 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: been many times in his life prior to that. Uh. 151 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: It's also a curved road that curves left. Um, so 152 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: it's not like you would go to a stop sign 153 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: and then make a right turn. It was a continual, 154 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: just you know, left hand curve. So according to take 155 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: Kenny's testimony, he makes this accidental right turn onto the 156 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: unpaved and very bumpy Dike Road and travels for approximately 157 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: half a mile to Dyke Bridge, which at the time 158 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: had no guardrails and was to his point, built at 159 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: an angle to the road, and he drove off and 160 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: the mystery around how he got out of the car 161 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: is something that continues to fascinate people. I will actually 162 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: dismiss this right now and say that his window was 163 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: rolled down, and it's not implausible to assume that he 164 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: was able to get out of that window with relative ease. Uh, 165 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: especially in a life you know, preserving moment obviously. UM. 166 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: In his testimony, he says that he tried to dive 167 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 1: down several times to retrieve Mary Joe and was unsuccessful. UM. 168 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: And then this is the point where I have to 169 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: bring in other points of view and other notions about 170 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: what the truth might be, and certainly what me and 171 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: Andrew believed the truth is. And that's that UM. As 172 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: we said, Ted Kennedy puts the accident around eleven p m. 173 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: And the reason that he does that is because the 174 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: last ferry leaves at midnight. And so when I tell 175 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: you that a sheriff deputy deputy officer Huck Look saw 176 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: an oldsmobile matching Ted Kennedy's oldsmobile's description with a license 177 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: plate beginning with L, the same letter that said Kennedy's 178 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: license late begin with remembering it also had two sevens, 179 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: which Ted Kennedy's license plate had. I think it's very 180 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: credible that a police officer and I witnessed says that 181 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: that oldsmobile went through that intersection at am. I now 182 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: described this as the missing hour. In that missing hour, 183 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 1: we don't know what happened, but I'm willing to believe 184 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: that Teg, Dammy and Mary Joe left the level of 185 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: team as long as we can also believe that they 186 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,599 Speaker 1: were not seeing again until twelve. Okay, So ultimately the 187 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: car ends up in the water, it's overturned and said 188 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: Kennedy does get out of the vehicle, but Mary Joe 189 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: does not. Um, let's just continue with the story because 190 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: I think our listeners want to know exactly how you 191 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: believe it's happened, now that you've done all the research 192 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: and constructed an entire story around it. Yeah, and I 193 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: think this is the perfect place to interject that where 194 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: we got our facts wasn't from uh conspiracy theory paperback 195 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: of some people have suggested, Um, we actually got the 196 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: court records into the inquestion to the death of Mary 197 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: Joe Copectni where everyone involved, everybody at the party actually 198 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: was reconvened in Martha's vineyard about six months later and 199 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: had to speak to these events under oath and for us, 200 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: that primary source of people that lived through it speaking 201 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: under oath. That's the most sure research that we could do. 202 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: And that's why we felt like if we stuck to 203 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: the facts that we learned from that testimony, that we 204 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: were doing our best to recreate and interpret what happened 205 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: that night. And I think that one thing that really 206 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: stands out for us and hopefully for viewers of the 207 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: film as well, is the fact driven spine of the narrative. 208 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: As you can tell listeners, as Taylor is walking through 209 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: the timeline of events here, Uh, everyone's being being very 210 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: deliberate in saying, uh, this is the attribution of this description. 211 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: And as as you have established, Matt, the the ultimate, 212 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: the the ultimate sticking or lack of unified perspective here 213 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: does come about in the in the hours following uh, 214 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: the and in the hours following the incident. Uh. I 215 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: really appreciate Tiller the term you use there, the missing hour, 216 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: because this sounds like one period of time where there 217 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: is no witness between you know, between this uh, this 218 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: period from shortly after eleven too after twelve there. Uh. 219 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: And it maybe too far to ask what the to 220 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: ask for conjecture on what would have happened, uh during 221 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: that missing hour, But we do know that after the incident, 222 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: based on Kennedy's accounts, based on the innkeepers accounts and 223 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: a few other accounts of phone calls and stuff, we 224 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: do have a rough timeline of what Kennedy was probably 225 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: doing in the hours following the accident. Is that correct? Absolutely? 226 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you even more. We read his autobiography, 227 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: as I think anybody would that was trying to tell 228 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: the story seriously, and he talks a lot about what 229 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: he was thinking and feeling during these intervening hours as well. 230 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: And so I'll continue on from where we kind of 231 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: left off, and it kind of lines up perfectly with 232 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: the point that I wanted to make, which is um 233 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: that Ted Kennedy does escape from the car, and I 234 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: do believe that he probably tried to rescue Mary Joe, 235 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: but he was unsuccessful because the current was very strong, 236 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: his back was bad from a plane crash in nine 237 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure that it was probably not easy for him 238 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: to enter that vehicle. And then we get to the 239 00:16:54,960 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: first negligent decision that for me is inexcusable, even if 240 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: it might be understandable. And I want to make a 241 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: clear delineation between something that I think that is understandable 242 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: and forgivable. UM. And I tried to get into the 243 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: psychology of Ted Kennedy. And the first moment that you 244 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: hit a real bump is that there's a house called 245 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: the Dike House. Um, not more than a hundred yards 246 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: from that Dike Bridge, and UM, he walks past it, 247 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: and it had its light on that evening. And I 248 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: feel like any person who has gotten into an accident, 249 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: one where someone's life is in danger or you know, 250 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: worst case scenario, already dead, it is your responsibility to 251 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: report that accident. I think that it's fair to say, 252 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: based off of what Ted Kennedy has said in interviews 253 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: and elsewhere, that he immediately realized that this accident was 254 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: going to have great impact on his political career. Now, 255 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: I am not directly attributing that to the reason why 256 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: he didn't report the accident immediately to whoever lived in 257 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: the Dike House, but that was on his mind. And 258 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: so he makes approximately about a mile and a half 259 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: walk back from Dike Bridge to Lawrence Cottage where the 260 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: party was taking place, and he passes several houses along 261 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,239 Speaker 1: the way, and this is a walk that me and 262 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: Andrew have made ourselves and made recently when we showed 263 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: the movie in Martha Svineyard for the Martha Syneyard Film Festival. 264 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: It's a twenty five minute walk. It's a long walk. 265 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: There's a lot that could go through one's mind. And 266 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: in the movie, Ted Kennedy gets into the back seat 267 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: of the Valiant, the other car that the party had 268 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: on the island that night, and he asked for his cousin, 269 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 1: Joe Gargon, And in the movie, Ted Kennedy tells Joe Gargon, 270 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: I'm never going to be president. Now. This line has 271 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: created a lot of consternation in the Kennedy camp and 272 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: uh in certain opinion pieces that have run in the 273 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: New York Times, etcetera. Uh, it is my invention. That 274 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: is Andrew's invention that that he said that in that moment, 275 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: But it is based off of the fact that Ted 276 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: Kennedy acknowledged that he did recognize immediately that his political 277 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: career has been impacted by this accident. Also in terms 278 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: of we talked about negligent behavior in terms of this 279 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: walk back to the um what's referred to as the 280 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: Lawrence Cottage where the party was being held um that 281 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: he also, in addition to the Dike house which had 282 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: their light on outside and the occupants of that home, 283 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: we're there, he also walked right by a fire station 284 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: which was almost directly across the street from the Lawrence cottage, 285 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: which is another which would have been another opportunity for 286 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: him to go seek help UH to um for immediate 287 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: UH to get help for Mary Joe immediately. Well, I 288 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,479 Speaker 1: will paraphrase said Kennedy's speech to the entire nation at 289 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: the end of the movie by saying, it was only 290 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: for reasons of budget that this fire station was not 291 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: included in the film. And at this point we're going 292 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: to pause the narrative briefly. We will return to the 293 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: events of chap Aquittic there in sixty nine after a 294 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we have returned. When we 295 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: examine the event of this night, and as as Taylor 296 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: and Andrew are already establishing here, it's it's inarguable that 297 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: Kennedy would have would have had to would have anticipated 298 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: uh political consequences of some sort, right even even immediately 299 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: after the event. One of the big questions that members 300 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: of our audience are going to have immediately is who 301 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 1: did he talk to that night, And if possible, without 302 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: relying too much on conjecture, what what was the substance 303 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: of those conversations Because to the earlier points he walked past, 304 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: he bypassed houses that had that that had the lights on, 305 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: right a fire station, where wherein one would assume, just 306 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: on on surface, we would we would assume that after 307 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,719 Speaker 1: an accident, especially with another person still left at the 308 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: scene of the accident, the first move you would take 309 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: is to contact an authority figure. So who were the 310 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: people that he contacted before contacting the police or the 311 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: fire department. I'm so excited that you asked this question 312 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: the way that you did, because I get to talk 313 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: about one of the details that we tried desperately to 314 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: make into the movie and in any iteration became too 315 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: expository to explain. Um. That is that the first person 316 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: that he talked to was a gentleman named ray L 317 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: Rosa who was at the party at Lawrence Cottage. I 318 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: believe that he was a certified diverer. Uh. Certainly he 319 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: had a lot of experience uh diving scoopa in the ocean, 320 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: et cetera. And he is the very first person that 321 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: Ted talks to and what he tells him is get 322 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: Joe Gargan, we've got a problem. And for Andrew and I, 323 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: this was already kind of a shocking thing for everyone 324 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: to agree on the record to be exactly what happened. 325 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: He was not interested in telling ray La Rosa, a 326 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: friend of his and someone that could have helped what 327 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: had happened. He first wanted to talk to somebody that 328 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: he was very close with and arguably one of the 329 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: people that Ted was closest within the world, his cousin 330 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: Joe Garden. And I should note here that Joe Garden 331 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: was not simply a cousin. I have cousins that I 332 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: haven't talked to in five years. He was kind of, uh, 333 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: Ted Kennedy's go to advanced man who would go and 334 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: advance his Ted to every location that would go to 335 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: to prepare everything. And that he actually lived with the 336 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: Kennedy's as his father and mother had died tragically at 337 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: a young age, and so he and his sister end 338 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 1: up being with the Kennedy's and they feel so indebted 339 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: to the Kennedy's that actually and his sister is Joe 340 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: Kennedy seniors nurse who you see in the film all 341 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: the way through the rest of his life, so very 342 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: close relationship, is my point. So rayl Rossa goes inside 343 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: and he grabs Joe Garden and the next thing out 344 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: of Ted Kennedy's mouth is you better get Paul Markham too, 345 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: who is very close with the Kennedy family, and was 346 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: you know, not more than six months prior the U 347 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: S Attorney to the State of Massachusetts. And this is 348 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: a high power, very intelligent group of loyal Kennedy campaign friends. 349 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: Now I do want to point out really quick on 350 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: Paul Markham. Uh, he's the absolute worst person at the 351 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: party to ask for help in any sort of rescue 352 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: mission because he's the only person of the party who 353 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: is suffering from a significant injury which he sustained uh 354 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: in the boat that they were racing. Actually, in reality, 355 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: he got that injury voting on the way from wherever 356 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: it was originally dr to Martha's vineyards. We put it 357 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: in during the race. I hope that you don't mind. Uh. 358 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: We thought that that was an acceptable fudge. Um. But 359 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: so he is walking with a limp throughout throughout the 360 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: weekend because he's injured, and yet this is one of 361 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: the two people that Ted kemothy as requested to help, 362 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: and according to Garden's testimony, it was still moments later 363 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: before Ted actually explained what was going on, and it 364 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: was on their drive over that he explains that there 365 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: was an accident and the car has gone off the 366 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: bridge and married Joe is inside. And again strange behavior, 367 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: uh in reality and in the movie, and very few 368 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: people seem to care about this inexplicable decision. Joe Gargan 369 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: and Paul Markham stripped down to their underwear to jump 370 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: into the pucha pon to try to rescue her. I 371 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: don't understand this, and I would love to turn it 372 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: to the host and see if you can help me. 373 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: You know, to this day, I still have plummax by 374 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: why two men trying to save a woman would need 375 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: to strip down. It seems like the urgency would have 376 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: you wanting to either a make a phone call to 377 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: somebody more capable or be just jump right in, as 378 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: someone's life might be at stake. Yeah, it's a question 379 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: that many people. I believe you're trying to answer. One 380 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: one argument might be the idea of of course, the 381 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: most immediate argument would be let's keep this between us. 382 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: Let's uh, let's resolve this and you know, let's get 383 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: the other person in the vehicle out safely. We can 384 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: all go home, get warm and then called insurance folks tomorrow. Right, 385 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: that would be that would be the most immediate assumption. 386 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: What do you think, Matt, Well, when you take into 387 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: account the roles that all three of the men had, 388 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: um the the third person that was with them, wasn't 389 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: he what was his role? Yeah? The U S Attorney 390 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: to the State of Massachusetts. So okay, So these these 391 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: are men who have powerful positions and know the law. 392 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: So there, I believe they're most likely saying on multiple occasions, Ted, 393 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: you've got to call the cops. Yes. So my my 394 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: thought of them stripping down to their underwear is not 395 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of self preservation and that they 396 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 1: could put their clothes back on sands underwear after jumping 397 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: in and look as though nothing had happened, if they 398 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: needed to have that option. That's my only thinking I 399 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: mean with that regards. So I'll tell you making a 400 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: movie as an evolutionary process, and we learned a lot 401 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,719 Speaker 1: throughout writing the script and coming up with the way 402 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: to best tell the truth. As we knew it. And 403 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: so to this point about what you just said. In 404 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: the script, you'll see that the line from Joe Gargan 405 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: as they're stripping down is coming back in what clothes? 406 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: Doesn't give us many options or something to that effect, 407 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: And in the movie it comes across in the sound 408 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: makes very deliberately as a New York Times interview with 409 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, and it's just scarbled. Uh But uh, ultimately 410 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: I feel like that is the right decision for the movie, 411 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: because we do know for a fact that they did 412 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: strip down, but we really don't know why. You did 413 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: a great job making it the most plausible version, at 414 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: least in my mind. Um So, okay, all of this 415 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: is going down. There's much more to the story about 416 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: what actually happens following the incident, but I kind of 417 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: want to leave some of that to the to the 418 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: person who's going to eventually watch the movie. Um So 419 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: I'd like to jump into while while this is occurring, 420 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: what else is happening in the United States and world 421 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: news that kind of exists as a cover for this incident. Well, 422 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: I don't know about cover, but it's happening concurrently. It's okay, 423 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: it's not a cover. It provides um the a one 424 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: position in a newspaper, right, well, this other thing that's 425 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: occurring in the news. Another way to put it is 426 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: that it is thematically the most relevant thing that could 427 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: possibly be happening at the time. And for me as 428 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: a writer, it was one of the reasons why this 429 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: story had to be told cinematically for the first time 430 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: was that this is the weekend of the moon landing. 431 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: And so what you have is the greatest residents of 432 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,719 Speaker 1: the John F. Kennedy presidential legacy, the greatest achievement of 433 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: his older brother, and possibly the lowest moment for Ted 434 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: Kennedy as Senator. And considering our premise and our understanding 435 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: of Ted as a human being, was that as the 436 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: youngest Kennedy, he never expected the spotlight to be on him, 437 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: and in fact, not even John F. Kennedy expected the 438 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: spotlight to be on him. Everyone assumed that Joe Jr. 439 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: The eldest, was you know, the prodigal son, and then 440 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: he died tragically in World War Two, and then that 441 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: led to, you know, everyone hoping for John F. Kennedy 442 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: to run for president, and obviously he didn't became president, 443 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: and only after two more tragedies. With the assassinations of 444 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: John and Bobby, did suddenly all the hopes and dreams 445 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: of the Kennedy legacy rest on Ted shoulders. And for us, 446 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: you know, we looked at it like as a sort 447 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: of Shakespearean sort of tray today leading into the events 448 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: of this weekend, and that's what made it easier to 449 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: understand how Ted made some of the wrong decisions that 450 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: he made that weekend. And with this, uh, with this 451 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: confluence of events, we we see several things happening, right. 452 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: We we see, as Matt said, the a one story 453 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: the net and as you said, Taylor, the when one 454 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: of the high points of JF. Kay's career occur at 455 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: the same time as this tragedy. So perhaps there wasn't 456 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: as much media attention on it as there otherwise would 457 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: have been, but investigations did occur. And one of the 458 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: things that we noticed in the film is that when 459 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: we fast forward a bit, when authorities finally do recover 460 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: Copectny's body, one one person believes that she may have 461 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: been dead or expired before the accident. UH, the argument 462 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: being that there was not enough water in her lungs 463 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: for her to have drowned. H was this possibility actually examined, 464 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: you know, in real in real life by the investigators. UM, 465 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: so I want to sort of make clear how uh 466 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: Mary Joe was positioned in the car, so excuse a 467 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: long visual description. UM. She was in the backseat of 468 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: the car, and that has led to a lot of 469 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: confusion about Oh, maybe she wasn't even writing as a passenger. 470 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: Maybe she was asleep in the back and all that 471 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. Acam's razor tells us that Ted 472 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: Kennedy testified under oath that she was the passator. People 473 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: all testified that she left. There's reason to believe that 474 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: to be very true. UM. What's also very interesting about 475 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: the way that she was positioned is that her arms 476 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: were the car's upside down, I should say, UM, and 477 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: her arms are clutched into the floorboards again upside down 478 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: in the car, UM to prop herself up, and her 479 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: neck is craned it away where her mouth is fluted upwards. 480 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: And the only person saw Mary Joe in the car 481 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: is a man named John Farrar, who um was a 482 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: volunteer for the fire department, I believe, and was the 483 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: diver that you know suited up and got into the 484 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: car to excavate her out of the vehicle, and he 485 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: said that it quote looked like she was gasping for 486 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: a last breath of air. And this is where we 487 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: get into something really interesting, which is that I know 488 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: that Ted Kennedy assumed that, you know, minutes after the accident, 489 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: that she had to have drowned. That's not an unreasonable 490 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: conclusion for someone to make. But once you start researching this, 491 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: you find out that even before this accident, there's a 492 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: woman in New Zealand, I believe, and I think you 493 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: know the mid nineteen sixties who survived for two hours 494 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: in a very similar accident in an air pocket. And 495 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: because someone called, they were able to get this New 496 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: Zealand woman out of the car and save her life. 497 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: And that's what John Farrar has said under oath, and 498 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,919 Speaker 1: when we talked to him personally, he said, I could 499 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: have gotten her out of that car in twenty minutes 500 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: of someone and called, but no one called. Wow, jeezus. 501 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: So with this in mind, with the questions that came 502 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: into being the night a the incident, the hours and 503 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: days following, and even the years uh following, we do 504 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: have Uh, some inevitable consequences that that we've mentioned before. 505 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 1: Let's explore those after a word from our sponsor. Welcome 506 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: back everyone. Let's begin by quickly discussing the political machine 507 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 1: that was standing directly behind Ted Kennedy. As all of 508 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 1: this is going down, he contacts his father, and his father, 509 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: at least according to the film, puts him in touch 510 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: with a whole host of political advisors and lawyers who 511 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 1: then began constructing the narrative of what happened. What they're 512 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: what the official stance is, What the official story is, um, 513 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: And let's just go through just a bit of that 514 00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: before we hit uh, kind of the aftermath. Yeah, this 515 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: is a perfect topic to talk about today. The movie 516 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: came out in theaters today as we're recording this, and 517 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: the New York Times just published an opinion piece by 518 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,760 Speaker 1: a gentleman who's uh writing a new biography about Ted Kennedy, 519 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 1: who um inexplicably thinks that, uh, this is not something 520 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: to be included in the public Yeah, discussion about Ted 521 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: Kennedy at the moment, as he has in this writer's opinion, 522 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: not moved onto the public domain. Again, I can't quite 523 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: understand that, but his His biggest issue with the movie 524 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: UH is a theme that we had to invent, which 525 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: is UH that when Ted returns to the main land 526 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 1: UH to his hotel UH, he goes to the pay 527 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,720 Speaker 1: phone out front and he calls hiantus Port where his father, 528 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: who's a victim and has trouble communicating, lives and Ted 529 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: explains to his father in the scene what has occurred, 530 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: and he is incredibly remorseful and unsure of what to do. 531 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: And the one word that his father is able to 532 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: speak is alibi. And this is conjecture on Andrew and 533 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: my part, but more it is talking to an emotional 534 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: truth and a thematic truth that we feel is incredibly 535 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: relevant to Ted. And here's what I'm trying to say. 536 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: We know that this accident occurred, and that Ted didn't 537 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: report it even after your return to the shire town 538 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: in and then we also know that you know, presumably 539 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: according to Ted Kennedy's testimony, about an hour after he 540 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: returned to the shire town End, he went down to 541 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: talk to a hotel clerk and he asked for the time. 542 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: He is all dry. Now, there's nothing visually apparent about 543 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: him that he's been in an accident, and the hotel 544 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: clerk said that although something seemed off, there was nothing 545 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: unusual about his appearance. Now, asking for the time is 546 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: what you do if you're trying to create an alibi 547 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: for yourself in a situation where a crime might have 548 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: been might have occurred. And I do think that, as 549 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: we said about the other line, I'll never be president, 550 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: that he has suggested that he did consider the impact 551 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: that this would have on his political career. We've already 552 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,879 Speaker 1: discussed the moon landing in the Kennedy legacy and how 553 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: much that weighs on his shoulders. I don't think that 554 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: it is at all a step too far to say 555 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: that his father's opinion of this probably weighed on him, 556 00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:00,399 Speaker 1: and that what he might have concluded is that this 557 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: would be a huge black mark on the Kennedy legacy. 558 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: And then we know that he did something that looked 559 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: a lot like crafting an alibi, and that's how the 560 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: scene seemed to be. And I have no shame in 561 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,760 Speaker 1: admitting that it is an invention. There are phone records 562 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,240 Speaker 1: that imply that calls were made from that pay phone 563 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: collects calls, et cetera. I I don't know, but I 564 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: feel like it is incredibly relevant to his character and 565 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: the emotions he was going through. And the other thing 566 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,840 Speaker 1: that people I've seen right about as well, specifically with 567 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: the alibi lines, that Joe Kennedy, you know, had had 568 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: a massive stroke and couldn't really speak, And it was 569 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: actually something that Taylor and I really discussed it Lincoln. 570 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: We were writing the script because obviously we wanted to 571 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: get it actually correct, and we knew that he had 572 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 1: a stroke, and we knew that he UM that his 573 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: speech was impaired, and so what we is up doing 574 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:06,240 Speaker 1: his finding a recording of UM President Johnson calling Joseph 575 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 1: Kennedy from the Oval office and Ted Kennedy was actually 576 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: in the Oval office with LBJ as well, and in 577 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: this recording, uh, you can hear exactly what Joe Kennedy 578 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: sounds like, which is that he's able to utter actual 579 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: words and that he's got the heavy breathing on the 580 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: other end of the line. And you know, I just 581 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: think it's important that people know that we did our 582 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: due diligence and as much research as we could to 583 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: make this as actual as possible. And I should say 584 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 1: this call with President Join took place in so you know, 585 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:42,320 Speaker 1: just over a year before these events, and although Joseph 586 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: Kennedy's health may have deteriorated from there, even at the time. 587 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 1: A line in the movie that Ted says is in 588 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: this phone call, and that's you're still the man with 589 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: all the influence, referring to his father. And that's why 590 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: it was not surprising to us or too far of 591 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: a stretch when we read the incredibly influential advisors that 592 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 1: were at Hyena Sport as soon as Ted arrived. Included 593 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 1: people like former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, included John F. Kennedy, 594 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 1: speech writer Ted Sorenson, Congressman, great lawyers, Burke Marshall, Sergeant Driver, etcetera. 595 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: Just you know, men of great historical stature, all were 596 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: already convened for helping Ted navigate his way out of 597 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,839 Speaker 1: this crisis. And so Ted in the movie says, you're 598 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 1: still demand with all the influence to his father. And 599 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: I don't think that it's, you know, too far of 600 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: a stretch to suggest that perhaps old Joe was able 601 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: to still hold some strengths agreed at least on our end, 602 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: That almost seems that almost seems without question or perhaps 603 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: naive to assume otherwise. And as we're as we're exploring, uh, 604 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: your collective experience writing this screenplay and bringing this story 605 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: to the large screen and thus, you know, to the 606 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: public at large, we'd like to ask some questions about 607 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: your experience and what you found afterwards. And we'd like 608 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,399 Speaker 1: to begin by asking what inspired the two of you 609 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: two go so far into this research to pursue this 610 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: story above other ones. Because you had mentioned before that 611 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: there was maybe some controversy about this cinematic look at it, 612 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: but you conducted interviews, you actually walked the road, Uh, 613 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: you delved into court records. What what was the impetus 614 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: for you to pursue this despite the obstacles that may 615 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: have been put up in your path. Um, you know 616 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:09,760 Speaker 1: one word answer my evany uh longer but still quotable answer. Uh. 617 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: Both Andrew and I are lifelong Democrats and incredibly huge 618 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: fans of the work that Ted Kennedy did a senator, 619 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 1: especially after nineteen and it was actually at one of 620 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: his most historic moments when he endorsed h then Senator 621 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton in the two thousand eight 622 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: primary in what was unexpected and considered by many to 623 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: be a game changing moment in that election cycle. And 624 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: we were and still are incredibly huge fans of Barack Obama. 625 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: I you know, really missed that man in the Oval Office. 626 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 1: And so when we were watching Real Time with Bill 627 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: Maher that night, Bill Maher was like Ted Kennedy changing 628 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: presidential history again. You know, he would have been president 629 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,359 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two had it not been for Chap 630 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: a critic. And Andrew and I had never heard of 631 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: this before. We didn't even know how to spell it 632 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: when we went to the Google machine to try to 633 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: type it in and figure out what Bill was talking about. 634 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: And for us, because this story was undertold and to 635 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: a generation younger than my parents, I think, completely obscure, 636 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: that was the reason why we were dying to tell 637 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: this story. And it became clear quickly that this was, 638 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, an important story and one that a lot 639 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: of rumor and conspiracy theories had you know, gotten a 640 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,359 Speaker 1: lot of traction. You know, the Wikipedia is littered with 641 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: conspiracy nuts. Uh, And for us, that was the reason 642 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: why we wanted to get to the truth as best 643 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: we could find it. Also, Uh, Andrew's dad as a lawyer, 644 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: and so I think, yeah, Andrew was very inspired, much 645 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,919 Speaker 1: like Psychomoty, to honor his father's legacy and UH stick 646 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 1: to the facts as we could find them. So, so, 647 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,279 Speaker 1: what were some of the as you as you said, 648 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: the film Chappaquittic has only recently been released in theaters, 649 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: what were some of the things you ran into that 650 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: might be considered obstacles in the course your research. And 651 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: what have the reactions been like so far as as 652 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:47,720 Speaker 1: the film has been screened or encountered by both film 653 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: critics or analysts, but then also by people who have 654 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 1: some sort of personal or professional relationship with the uh, 655 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: with the individuals in the story. I'm gonna say something 656 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: so sounds like marketing, but it is the God's honest truth. 657 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:09,560 Speaker 1: I have been overwhelmed by the positive reaction from audiences 658 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: and film critics alike about this movie. Um, I knew 659 00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: that we were you know, by the time we were 660 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,240 Speaker 1: making this movie, I finally understood that we were dealing 661 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,720 Speaker 1: with what was a third rail in political history, and 662 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 1: it's like the original source of what aboutism in our 663 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 1: modern political history. And for me, I expected the reactions 664 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:43,839 Speaker 1: to sadly be divided on partisan lines, but in reality, 665 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: I have been so, you know, eager and excited to 666 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 1: read these reviews and see these audience reactions, and everyone 667 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 1: feels incredibly passionate about how this story has finally been told. 668 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 1: And even the people that are critical of the movie, 669 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:04,760 Speaker 1: I think acknowledge that this did happen and it's something 670 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 1: that deserves reexamination. I couldn't agree more. Uh, watching this film, 671 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 1: my reaction to it, specifically to watching that political machine happened, 672 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: because it's something that I had imagined after just reading 673 00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,799 Speaker 1: about the story. Those scenes, I imagine them in my 674 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,960 Speaker 1: head and you captured them almost too well. The the 675 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:33,200 Speaker 1: unnerving feeling that if a powerful person gets in trouble, 676 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: there is this institution that can come through and basically 677 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 1: save you, um, you know, somewhat by changing details somewhat, 678 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 1: just by controlling the situation and just by making the 679 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:50,480 Speaker 1: optics correct for what you need. I want to jump 680 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: to well, just we'll we'll say this. There was a 681 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: press conference televised, well, it was more of a televised 682 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,279 Speaker 1: statement that Ted Kennedy gave no questions, no questions at 683 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 1: this time. Yeah, you couldn't have anybody there. There were 684 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,879 Speaker 1: a lot of stipulations about it. It was just Ted 685 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,960 Speaker 1: Kennedy speaking to the camera and that was on July nine, 686 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,719 Speaker 1: sixty nine. And in the film, he is having a 687 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:22,920 Speaker 1: just a quick discussion with Joe Gargan and I'm just 688 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,439 Speaker 1: gonna feed this line and see if you can give 689 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,839 Speaker 1: me the one that comes right after it. Moses had 690 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:34,320 Speaker 1: a temper, Peter betrayed Jesus, I have chap a quittic. 691 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,319 Speaker 1: Moses had a temper, but he didn't leave a girl 692 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 1: at the bottom of the Red six. Oh dude, talk 693 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,960 Speaker 1: about some screenwriting there, guys. I uh, that that hit 694 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,920 Speaker 1: home like perfectly. It was just an awesome line, and 695 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,320 Speaker 1: it made it really encapsulated everything that you had seen 696 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:56,840 Speaker 1: and experienced up until that moment, because Joe's character played 697 00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,400 Speaker 1: by Ed Helms, really is kind of the human side 698 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: to this story at least it feels that way, the 699 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: conscience that exists within this story. And I really appreciated 700 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:12,320 Speaker 1: that you brought that in in that that moment of 701 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,520 Speaker 1: I don't know that the moment where Ted was trying 702 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 1: to reach greatness to be a Kennedy and he had 703 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,560 Speaker 1: to kind of make a decision there about whether he 704 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,880 Speaker 1: wanted to move forward as a politician or kind of 705 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,640 Speaker 1: let it go. And I just I don't know, I 706 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,360 Speaker 1: really appreciate what you did there. I don't really I 707 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: don't know if I have a question about that so much. 708 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 1: It's not really a question, it's just I appreciate it. Uh. 709 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 1: You know, I certainly myself have had moments where you know, 710 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 1: Chris Farley and uh, Paul McCartney comes to mind. So 711 00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:51,719 Speaker 1: I appreciate the question, non question, but uh, to your point, 712 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,560 Speaker 1: I do want to say for the listeners out there, 713 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,279 Speaker 1: if you do see the movie, um, the seem that 714 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: he's referring to, Joe Garden ends up doing something immediately 715 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,680 Speaker 1: afterwards during the reading of the cell Avice statement that 716 00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,640 Speaker 1: I actually won't spoil here, but I do want to 717 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: say that, as unbelievable as it may seem, that is 718 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:20,320 Speaker 1: exactly true, and that Joe Gargen did, in fact suffer 719 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:26,200 Speaker 1: the indignity that we show him suffering. Wow. And if 720 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: you want to learn what we're referring to, the best 721 00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 1: way to do it is to check out the film 722 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:38,239 Speaker 1: chap Equitic in theaters near you. Yeah, as we're recording this, 723 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:43,160 Speaker 1: it's premiering today in theaters, and we want to thank 724 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,239 Speaker 1: you Taylor and you Andrew so much for coming on 725 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:53,040 Speaker 1: the show with us and exploring this all too often 726 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:58,919 Speaker 1: neglected chapter in American history. And and folks, as you're 727 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:03,719 Speaker 1: thinking about the episode today, you have to ask yourself, inevitably, 728 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:09,560 Speaker 1: how would the course of history have changed had this 729 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:16,960 Speaker 1: incident not occurred, or had it been processed differently by 730 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,239 Speaker 1: by Kennedy by the media at large. Yeah, you teat 731 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,160 Speaker 1: it up perfectly by saying how would history have been different? 732 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,440 Speaker 1: And what I'll say is that now after researching for 733 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,800 Speaker 1: the film, and hopefully for your audience after seeing the film. Um, 734 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,600 Speaker 1: the movie ends with a sort of you know, jaywalking 735 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,759 Speaker 1: man on the Street interview where people are asked what 736 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 1: they thought of this televised statement and more pointedly, would 737 00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,160 Speaker 1: they still vote for him? And with the you know 738 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,120 Speaker 1: joy of Monday morning quarterbacking and knowing all the great 739 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,840 Speaker 1: things that he did as senator and that maybe he 740 00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,000 Speaker 1: might have changed presidential election history a second time in 741 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,799 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight with Rock Obama. For me, one 742 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 1: of the driving questions of wanting to tell the story 743 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:10,120 Speaker 1: was was it worth it was? Ted Kennedy is going 744 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,720 Speaker 1: on to be senator for so many more years becoming 745 00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,600 Speaker 1: the lion of the Senate and driving through policies that 746 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:22,279 Speaker 1: agree with was that the right choice? And for me, 747 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: the only answer I ever came up with was that 748 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,480 Speaker 1: the truth has no political party. And that was true 749 00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,759 Speaker 1: in nineteen nine, and that is especially true today in 750 00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:38,000 Speaker 1: two thousand and eighteen. The midterms are coming up. I 751 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,320 Speaker 1: would love another re examination of the truth for executive branch. 752 00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,120 Speaker 1: So that's that's my point that I had to make. 753 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:48,000 Speaker 1: That is a fantastic point and very well said. The 754 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,560 Speaker 1: truth has no allegiance other than to the facts. And 755 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,640 Speaker 1: that's our show for today, folks, our interview with Taylor 756 00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:01,400 Speaker 1: Allen and Andrew Logan. The screen ride of chap Equittic 757 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:06,000 Speaker 1: in theaters near you as we record this and as 758 00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,680 Speaker 1: you listen to it. We will be back very soon 759 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:11,960 Speaker 1: with more stuff they don't want you to know. In 760 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,960 Speaker 1: the meantime, you can find us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, 761 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,359 Speaker 1: and if you think that social media is a big 762 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,920 Speaker 1: brew ha ha and uh, you'd rather talk to us directly, 763 00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,239 Speaker 1: take a line from Taylor and Andrews book, Go to 764 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,120 Speaker 1: your primary sources. The good news is you can write 765 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,360 Speaker 1: to us directly. We are conspiracy at how stuff works 766 00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:52,839 Speaker 1: dot com,