1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our super producer, 4 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: mister Max. 5 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 2: Zohobe zomb Oh Williams. With their tanks and their guns 6 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 2: and their guns and their guns and their zombies. 7 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: The cranberries absolutely nailed that tiny desk. 8 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: Also a great juice, an underrated juice even I like, 9 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 2: I have to. 10 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: I have to drink cranberry juice because I used to 11 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,959 Speaker 1: have kidney stones. That's little to t m. I uh so, 12 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: I'm a bit of a bit of a connoiseur the cranberry. 13 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's your favorite. 14 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: I particularly like getting the straight up cranberry juice and 15 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: then get a little bit yeah yeah, diluting it, mixing 16 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: it down a little bit. I'm Ben Bullen, that is 17 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: mister Noel Brown. 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: Hello, hello, uh Noel. 19 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: We are getting into as we said earlier, we are 20 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: getting into the fall season, the most wonderful time of 21 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: the year. 22 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 2: Which is today passed the equinox. Right, oh yeah, look 23 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: at you man. You know you know I know how 24 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: because because I do yoga now every day and they 25 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 2: they they love the equinox special affirmation based around the equinox, 26 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: the seasons of our of our bodies shifting along with 27 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:51,559 Speaker 2: that of nature. 28 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: What's your favorite yoga position or process? Donkey butt? Oh yeah, 29 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: how what is that? Can you describe it? 30 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: I'm just kidding at the rest, I don't know, man, Like, 31 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: I think the thing that I like the most is 32 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: that I can just hanging downward dog like indefinitely ever. Yeah, 33 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 2: And that's it's the most transitional pose and like. 34 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: The more you do it, the better you get at it. 35 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: And I've just been absolutely loving it. 36 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: So I don't know. I like, oh, man, I'm like 37 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: Trump and the Bible. I just love all. I love 38 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: the whole thing. I love the whole thing. There we go, 39 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: There we go. 40 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: We are, of course, huge fans of Halloween. As as 41 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: we said in the past, it's arguably always Halloween in America, 42 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: and so we reached out to our crew of research 43 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: associates and we said, what's some halloweeny stuff? And lo 44 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: and behold, our good pal Red had Renfest I believe 45 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: we're calling her, got back to us and said, what 46 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: do you guys know about zombies? 47 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 2: Well, there's the song. We got that one out of 48 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 2: the way. Yeah, there's a fellow named George Romero who 49 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 2: made some movies about them that I think were pretty 50 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: well received. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 51 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: Uh. The term living dead was first used in the 52 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight Romero film Night of the Living Dead, 53 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: which spawned an empire media. 54 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 2: And you know, well, we can't. We can't talk about 55 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: that without talking about Knight of the Dummy, Night of 56 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: the Goosebumps classic. We also can't talk or. 57 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 3: The magnificent Carnival of Souls. 58 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: Oh boy, I know you think that, Ben, I don't think. 59 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: I told you. I watched that not long ago. Must 60 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: of the last season really ahead of his time. It's 61 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: a it's like you know, it's it's an older film. 62 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: It's a real artsy kind of cerebral horror, very dreamlike, 63 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: very linch. I liked a lot. Thank you, Oh you 64 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: made it. I just like that you like it. 65 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 3: I do like, Yeah, it's an interesting story. We did 66 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 3: an episode about HERK. Harvey for Ephemeral, and it's because 67 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 3: it's the only like film like that he made his career. 68 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 3: He did educational films. 69 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, they bruci Ones. You know who else did that 70 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 2: some young you know, Joel Romera. Romero, that Romero. 71 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 3: We talk about it, like in our episode, we kind 72 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 3: of draw the comparison between the two of them because 73 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: it's like they were not these traditional things and that's 74 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 3: kind of like, uh, the John Wick movie franchise. They're 75 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 3: done by like stunt people, and that's why they're so cool. 76 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 3: It's because they're looking at it from a different angle 77 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 3: than what we're used to people looking at the films. 78 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: For I gotta say also ephemeral, just as just as 79 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: of mention. If you're a long time ridiculous historian, you've 80 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: heard us brag about this show before. Max and his brother, 81 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: our composer Alex really led the charge on this. 82 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 3: And the venerable Trevor Young. 83 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: And and young mister Young, venerable and ephemeral. There we go, 84 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: and we have all plays to part in this endeavor. 85 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: I think it really shows us what a podcast can do. 86 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: So if you haven't heard it yet, get THEE to 87 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: your platform of choice, dude. 88 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: I just something was like totally going off in my 89 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: nogin about these institutional films or educational films. George Romeiro recently, 90 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 2: this very rare and underseen Romero film called The Amusement 91 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 2: Park was unearthed and it is the only film he 92 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: ever made for hire, and it was commissioned by the 93 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 2: Lutheran Service Society of Western Pennsylvania educational film about elder 94 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 2: abuse and agism. But it's really whack and twisted and 95 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: clearly dude just took the ball and ran with it, 96 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 2: and the rest is zombie history. 97 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: Kind of like asking David Lynch to make a soap. 98 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: Opera or to make a Star Wars movie, which almost happened, 99 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: could have happened. What a bizarro timeline that would have been? 100 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 1: What was that there were so many Salvador Dolly brushes 101 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: with greatness and film. 102 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 2: I really did have a brief dalliance with Disney, and 103 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: that's what I'm thinking. You can see clips of it. 104 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 2: I think there were just some animatics that were produced, 105 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 2: but the whole thing wasn't made. But it's really neat 106 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 2: and it's about what you would imagine maybe a Disney 107 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 2: Dolly copro might look like. 108 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: Bro true story, we were out in Spain and went 109 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: to a Dolly museum where we were watching I guess 110 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: you would call it the initial or test footage of 111 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: his work with Disney. I believe it was Disney. I'm gullible. 112 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: I get very in the moment and I wanted to 113 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: pick up some pieces of Dolly artwork. And my girlfriend, 114 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: who is by far the more intelligent, more responsible what 115 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: in the crew, she said, you can't just throw money 116 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: at stuff because you think it's cool in the moment, 117 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: and she was correct. I also threw money at the 118 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: screen every time a Zaba be filmed with twenty eight 119 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: in the title comes out. 120 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: I would argue that throwing money at a thing in 121 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 2: the moment is the only way to live. That's just 122 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, that's just respectfully disagreeed. And you know my 123 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: girlfriends so and you know about her la booboo thing. Gosh, 124 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 2: everybody sent me well wishes this pop culture. No, I'm 125 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 2: just not I'm not prepared. You know what I bought recently? 126 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: What did you buy? A lafufu? 127 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: Ah? 128 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 2: I know what the lofufu is. It's just a bootleg 129 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: laboo boo. And you know, I was hanging behind the 130 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: counter at a gas station that I frequent around here, 131 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 2: and I just you know, it's sort of like those 132 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: like really cool like burned mixed CDs, the bootleg CDs 133 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 2: you'll see sometimes Atlanta gas stations had to have it 134 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: and eat in. My kid immediately decapitated it and hung 135 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: it on a cross. 136 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: That information what you will Classic eat A big fan 137 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,239 Speaker 1: of the show, you can check out their appearance many 138 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: years ago on this very show, way back in the day. 139 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: We are huge fans of Halloween. We are huge fans 140 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: of spoopy doopy stuff and folklore, and the idea of 141 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: the living dead, often called zombies in the West, is 142 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: a huge thing. It's a prime character the pantheon of 143 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: Western monsters. And now, like, do you remember twenty eight 144 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: years later the newest sequel? 145 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: Do I remember it? Of course? Yeah, it was. It's 146 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 2: only months ago. I think I saw. I actually saw 147 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: it twice in the theaters. And did you see it, Ben? Yeah, yeah, 148 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: multiple times. How did you feel about the end? D true? 149 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 2: I loved it. I loved it. I thought it was 150 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 2: clock personified. 151 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: It changed the tone and it was fun, upbeat after 152 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: quite a slog of a movie. I mean, I was good, 153 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: but like, also, I loved all the hanging dongs. Man, 154 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: I love hanging the zombie dongs. Yeah, yeah, and we 155 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: won't spoil that film, but do check the zombie hanging dongs. 156 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: You gonna see a lot of them, but that might 157 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: be more trigger warning than a spoil. They're dead, Do 158 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: they care about fashion? Sure are swinging. They sure look 159 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: lively to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and the weather 160 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: was nice for those dogs. 161 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: Also, unless you worry too much or if it even matters, 162 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: they are apparently all prosthetic five much like the Dirk 163 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: Diggler dong and Boogie Knights. 164 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, but there or William Dafoe Willem Dafoe had a 165 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: stunt double. 166 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 2: I think at Anti Christ. That's correct for those There 167 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: were some pretty seriously pornographic penetrative sex scenes in that film. 168 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: Yes, and we are getting back to zombies. 169 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: We are, We're getting there, energy man. Yeah. 170 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: So, in modern pop culture and your favorite films or 171 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: works of fiction about the undead, zombies come from any 172 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: number of imagined circumstances, nuclear fallout, red yeah right right, 173 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: Nuclear fallout renders people uh somewhat zombie like, or of course, 174 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: a fungal pandemic like Last of Us, a phenomenal video game. 175 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: Maybe there's a virus. 176 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 2: Not the best of shows. First season was pretty solid. 177 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: Second season. 178 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 3: Boy, did aith is so mad at me because I 179 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 3: just keep telling her how awful good. 180 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: I mean, which you're like, no, yucking of youms. But 181 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 2: it took an odd tone, especially for a show where 182 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 2: the creator of the video game was involved and clearly 183 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: didn't quite get what made the game good. That's always odd. 184 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 3: It's like the whole entire purpose of the second game 185 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 3: gets blown in the second episode. It's like, Oh, we're 186 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 3: just gonna tell you the plot at the end of 187 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 3: developing it. And I say this as a guy tattoo, right, right? 188 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 3: Is I convinced my friend to buy a PlayStation instead 189 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 3: and just play the game? 190 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Well, you know, you meet people where they're at. Right. Uh. 191 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: The kind of the idea of the living dead I 192 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: think addresses uh, the one are the main questions of humanity, 193 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: which is mortality. No one really knows what happens when 194 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: you die, so death and anything involved with death can 195 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: be very scary. The fancy word for that is thanatology, 196 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: which means the study of death. 197 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 2: Oh, I guess that's where Thanos gets his neck. Yes, 198 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: he is a death deity. He is basically a god 199 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: of death. More or less, he's like a death fanboy. Okay, 200 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 2: got its death adjacent. He's death adjacent. There we go. 201 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: Uh, it's weird, no, because, however, depicted the undead zombies 202 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: in particular to be differentiated from you know, vampires, right, 203 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: which often still possess cognitive faculties. Zombies can be very fast, right, 204 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: they can be very slow, like a Knight of the 205 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: Living Dead. The main thing is they're unrelenting. 206 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: For sure, and there's the horde of them. They they move, 207 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 2: they do move in herds. It's true. Also, I would argue, 208 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 2: and I think most pop cultury type writers that the 209 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: fast zombie really didn't come around until the first twenty 210 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 2: eight Days Later movie. That was kind of the advent 211 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: of the fast zombie, which is what made that movie 212 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 2: kind of stand apart. I'm fascinated by ben is the 213 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: evolution of the zombie from sort of a shambling walking 214 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 2: thing that might eat your guts to one that will 215 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 2: give you the bug if it scratches, bites, or you know, 216 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 2: viscerates you even and then you join the herd. 217 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: And COVID taught us a lot about the real life 218 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: consequences of not telling folks when you're infected. The zombie 219 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: films were right. Every time someone hides the bite and 220 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: then later turns into a monster, it's kind of like 221 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 1: people lyeing about their COVID tests. So art does reflect reality. 222 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: And I got to shout out World War Z. The 223 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: book series amazing and the film adaptation also have very 224 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: fast zombies with a big old pile of them climbing 225 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: up a wall. A mistake, and that was sort of 226 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: the iconic imagery from that. 227 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 2: Well, why don't we jump. 228 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 3: In the very cut budget at the very end, which 229 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 3: was very boring. The film ran out of money when 230 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 3: they were making it, okay, and it was very clear 231 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 3: while you watched it they blew. 232 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 2: All the money on the zombie wall and then they 233 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,599 Speaker 2: didn't know how to end it. You get in situations. 234 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: You know, we know that Romero was or is rightly 235 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: credited with bringing the idea of the zombie to the 236 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: zeitgeist here in the West, but if you look at 237 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: the etymology, zombie as a term can be traced all 238 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: the way back to the sixteen hundreds to Haitian folklore 239 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: and allegedly, we don't want to other hear Vudu religious practices. 240 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: Do the do do you like? I'd like to think 241 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 2: I do. Some days I do, some days I don't. 242 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: With you there, Ben, because of course this is a 243 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 2: practice much like WICCA or any other sort of earth 244 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: based ritualistic belief system, and it often gets pegged in 245 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 2: this black magic kind of way and others. And I 246 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 2: think that's maybe where the ick comes from, in terms 247 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 2: of like the way it's demonized, which I think unfairly right, 248 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 2: is that what I agree with you? Yeah? 249 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: I mean, concepts of necromancy in one version or another, 250 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: have always been around. They're as old as the first 251 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: time a human noticed another human died, right. It's it's 252 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: a very old human instinct, and we have to remember 253 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: there's historical context. So zombie spelled the way we spell 254 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: it now with an ie it comes from or it 255 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: has alternate spellings like zombi and j U M b 256 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: I E. A lot of the US focus on the 257 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: idea of this speci type of reanimated cadaver comes from 258 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: the other being comes from the United States occupation of 259 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: Haiti from nineteen fifteen to nineteen thirty four, and people 260 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: were obsessed with what they saw as exotic, unfamiliar customs, 261 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: very old customs. By the way, that you can trace 262 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: directly to empires in Africa, on the African continent, and 263 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: we know, for instance, we've all heard of like Layer 264 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: of the White Worm, if you remember that one. 265 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good one. And another good one is 266 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: The Serpent and the Rainbow. I believe that's John Carpenter 267 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 2: or is it Wes Craven. I think it might be 268 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 2: Wes Craven. But it's about it's literally about this very 269 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 2: topic and more rooted in that that culture that we're 270 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: talking about here. I haven't seen it in a long 271 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 2: time and it may have not aged well, but it's 272 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: got Bill Paxton in it, and it's definitely got some 273 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 2: I'm good scarce it might be worth a check. There 274 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: are the White Worms? Weird as hell? Yeah it is. 275 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: It's based on Bram Stoker. It's got a snake worshiping priestess. Honestly, 276 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: Serpent in the Rainbow was what I was thinking about originally, 277 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: because it is very loosely inspired by an extremely awesome book. 278 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: And if you saw the film and you didn't enjoy it, 279 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: please do check out the book. It's totally different. It's 280 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: much more factually based. 281 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: I may have said Bill Paxton, I met Bill Pullman, 282 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: and it was in fact directed by Wes Craven and 283 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 2: came out in nineteen eighty eight. 284 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: Nice we know that a guy named William C. Brook 285 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: went to Haiti to quote unquote learn about the culture, 286 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: and when he did, he wrote a book called The 287 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: Magic Island in nineteen twenty nine, and he had some 288 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: really turgid prose about zombies and about Haiti in general. 289 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: He was very much coming from an outsider, exploitative perspective. 290 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: Right now, fellow nerds believe that Seabrook may have been 291 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: the guy who introduced the word zombie into the American vernacular, 292 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: but his account of the folklore detracted from its origins, 293 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 1: which are slavery. This is where we have a disclaimer. 294 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 1: As we kind of noted at the top, this is 295 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: a spoopy Doupe episode, as Wren says, gravely serious. So 296 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: we do have to talk about the real life origins 297 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: of enslavement and colonialism that led to all these films 298 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: we enjoy so much today. 299 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 2: So, before the Haitian Revolution, Haiti was a French colony 300 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 2: known as Sante Domingo Domingo. I believe Santa Domingo, as 301 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: I said anglicize it. The French relied on forced labor 302 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 2: of enslaved African people to create very lucrative sugar cane plantations. 303 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: Right they made profit in human blood, and they were 304 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: forcing these enslaved people into a very brutal life with 305 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: the life expectancy was quite short. You would be a 306 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: teenager and you would die in a few years, simply 307 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: due to the climate, the unbelievable cruelty of the folks 308 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: attempting to enslave you. 309 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 2: We also know, it's so much danger involved in cutting 310 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,479 Speaker 2: down sugar cane, Like people lose limbs, people lose hands. 311 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 2: You know, you literally have this massive blade and you're 312 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 2: holding the thing and chop down on it. All kinds 313 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: of ways. People could get infections, and you know, just 314 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 2: the lack of care. Certainly it would be minimal that 315 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: would just allow people to continue to work, probably with 316 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: injuries like that that would ultimately lead to their death. 317 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 2: And yeah, and painful. 318 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: Often no such thing as OSHA, no such thing as 319 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: an HR department. Let's go to Mike Maryanni who writes 320 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: about this in the Atlantic. 321 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 2: He says that. 322 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: A pretty big portion of people enslaved in Haiti at 323 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: the time thought that dying might release them back to Langhani, 324 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: to getting to Africa the continent in general, and this 325 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: would be an afterlife wherein one was free from the 326 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: atrocities of the waking world. 327 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 2: And of course we have to we have to. 328 00:19:53,880 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: Acknowledge that suicide was common among enslaved people, and one 329 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: social mechanism that occurred to prevent this was the argument, 330 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: similar to Christianity, that if you take your own life, 331 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 1: you do not get to go to Heaven, whatever version 332 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: there may be. 333 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 2: Yes, it's just, you know, just work until you die. 334 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: Just work until you die, because there's a payoff in 335 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: the afterlife. And if you did take your own life, 336 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 1: you would be condemned to stay on that cursed sugarcane 337 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: plantation for internity. 338 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 2: You would be insult to injury. 339 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: Right, you are denied your own agency as a person, 340 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: but you are trapped within your body. You have lost 341 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: your soul. You are a zombie. But the word itself 342 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: originates in West Africa zombie zo nb i in Haitian Creole. 343 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: You start to see that near the end of the 344 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 2: peer of French colonial rule, when this myth had really 345 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 2: become part and parcel with the Voodoo culture. Simply explained 346 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: the French were Catholic and they forced the Africans that 347 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 2: they enslaved to adhere to their particular rigid beliefs. Heard 348 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: of that move before, but since those enslaved didn't want 349 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 2: to abandon their sacred beliefs, they of course had to 350 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: take them underground, which we also hear about. 351 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: All the tigious syncretism mm hmm. 352 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 2: And then they start to make their way into sort 353 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 2: of styling on the belief systems that were forced upon them. 354 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 2: So they carried them with them back to their homelands, 355 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 2: and over time they did establish this system of beliefs 356 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 2: known as Voodoo, which did take elements, as we're saying, 357 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 2: from Christianity and kind of blended them with the spirituality 358 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 2: of the West African culture. 359 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: Right, animism, ancestor worship, that kind of stuff. We talk 360 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: a lot about religious syncretism on our sister show. Stuff 361 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. We find it fascinating, 362 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: you know, nol. As you remember, I run into religious 363 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: syncretism or syncretic practices throughout Central America. It occurs in 364 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: a similar way in the Caribbean, wherein people will say 365 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: this patron Saint is actually this deity or this spirit right, 366 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: and the French colonialist they did some of the same things. 367 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: A lot of missionaries did this. Spanish missionaries as well. 368 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: They would say, Oh, your mountain God is actually our 369 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: thing and you just had the name wrong. 370 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: It's the funniest clip you've probably seen it. It's a 371 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: Ricky Gervais talking about isn't it a coincidence that if 372 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 2: you're born in the United States you're probably going to 373 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 2: grow up Christian, if you were born in India, you're 374 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 2: probably going to grow up Hindu, And if you're born 375 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 2: in Asia you're probably going to grow up Buddhists. And 376 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 2: then he just points out this notion of each one 377 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: of these cultures being fully convinced against all odds that 378 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: they're the ones that got. 379 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: It right one hundred percent. Yeah, And there's a fantastic 380 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: conversation Ricky Gervais has with Stephen Colbert and years back. 381 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: I was in the audience for it, and they talk 382 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: about atheism and they talk, you know, Stephen Colbert and 383 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: Ardent Catholic and there's nothing wrong with that, But Ricky 384 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: Gervais's banger line from there, which I think Steve appreciated 385 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: was he said, Okay, you're Catholic, you believe in one God. Really, 386 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: all that means is I believe in one less God 387 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: than you, which is a really interesting way to reframe 388 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: it and look at it. And speaking of reframing, we 389 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: have to recognize that outside of Western film and fiction, 390 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: in actual Haitian culture, a zombie is not considered undead. 391 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: A zombie is instead considered a living human being whose 392 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: mental faculties have been severely altered. And that's something we 393 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: see in that's something we see in the book Serpent 394 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: and the Rainbow. The original zombie folklore begins to take 395 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: a more literal, less metaphorical form with the emergence of voodoo. 396 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: As you describe. 397 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 2: It, is there a sense that the person is in 398 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 2: some way under the sway of someone or something. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, 399 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 2: you nailed it. 400 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: And there are a few things that could wake that 401 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: person up and maybe return them to their original state. 402 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: If you're looking at Haitian folklore and you're trying to 403 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: find the puppeteer of the zombie, then you're looking at 404 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: something called a beaucoor or a sorcerer who can induce 405 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: a coma like state in their victims. So the victim's 406 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: family and they're loved ones, they bury the victim because 407 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: they think that person is dead. Speaking of morbid stuff, 408 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: we should absolutely do an episode about premature burial. 409 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 2: That's funny, Ben. The tagline of the Serpent in the 410 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 2: Rainbow is don't bury me, I'm not dead. Exclamation marketing. 411 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: Oh man, there was like a baker's dozen of patents 412 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: here in the US for devices that would let you 413 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: alert people if you had been buried before you were 414 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: actually dead, like the things you pull for the yeah yeah, yeah. 415 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: So you wake up in the coffin and you you say, oh, 416 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: thank goodness, there's a string here, and it starts ringing 417 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: a bell by your jaw. 418 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 2: I've seen that used in some fiction. I want to 419 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: say it was in the first the Nun movie. Oh 420 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 2: I held me on that, but I think it might 421 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 2: have been. I remember The Nun. That one's a period piece. 422 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: So this, this idea here is that after the person 423 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: is buried prematurely, the sorcerer of the Bocoor digs up 424 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: the victim revi through a combination of perhaps drugs and ritualism, 425 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: and then the person becomes a zombie. They are devoid 426 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: of free will. They do whatever the sorcerer tells them 427 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: to do. And we're pulling that straight from the US 428 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: Library of Congress. The work of these sorcerers, these buukor 429 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: could be considered evil if they were used for evil purposes. 430 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: But folks who were enslaved and escaped enslavement formed secret societies, 431 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: and they may have done a kind of underground railroad. 432 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: If you go to visit Haiti, you'll see that the 433 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: secret societies of people who achieved freedom may have also 434 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 1: helped other people achieve freedom by faking death. Pseudo side 435 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: sure like a Romeo and juliet Only Juliette didn't get 436 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: the memo. 437 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 2: No, Romeo didn't get the memo? Which one was it? 438 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 2: Somebody didn't get the memo? One of them took a 439 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 2: drug that would make them seem as though they were 440 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 2: in a state like death, and then the other one 441 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 2: comes upon them, rome the memo, and then Juliette awakens 442 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 2: from her stupor and realizes that her dear Romeo has 443 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 2: a not gotten the memo and yeah, not a lives herself. 444 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: Let's get into the science with the yeah, yeah, I 445 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: always I bet you I'm sure. 446 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 2: In the text of Shakespeare it is described what remedy 447 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 2: or lack thereof that that Juliette is given because it's 448 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 2: by an old priest type figure. You know, it's like 449 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 2: a dude that would have like knowledge of these esoteric arts. 450 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: Right, you're right, it would be some kind of pharmacologist. 451 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 2: Right. 452 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm a priest in my day job, but I'm 453 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: also super into alchemy. And it's a friar if I 454 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: remember that gives her the substance. There's an excellent article 455 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: from the BBC back in I want to say, twenty 456 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: fourteen that dives into the idea. Right, because Shakespeare is 457 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: writing about poison and the effects of drugs all the time, 458 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: and we're later historians literally found the guy may have 459 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: smoked some form of cannabis comes into it. 460 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, my type of fellow. 461 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: Your type of Othello, don't touch the stuff. So let's 462 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: go to the science here. As we've been mentioning various 463 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: anthropological works, there's this ethnobotanist named Wade Davis. Wade has 464 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: his bona fides. 465 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: He went to. 466 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: Harvard, which doesn't always make you an expert, but in 467 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: this case it is true. He is known for his 468 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: books on indigenous cultures biodiversity. He is indeed the author 469 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: of The Serpent and the Rain book. Yes, way cool, 470 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: I love that. So this is why I love this 471 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: book so much. So he looks into the rumors of 472 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: bringing back the dead in Haiti, this thing we would 473 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: call zombification, and he believes that these self reporting sorcerers, 474 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: these bokoor, are actually using toxins from animals and paralytic 475 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: herbs to create this cognitive state, especially pufferfish stuff tetro detoxin. 476 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 2: Right, But wasn't there a bit of a stink when 477 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 2: this book was published? Yes, in terms of the efficacy 478 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 2: of the things that he was reporting. 479 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, he has had a lot of So it's nineteen 480 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: eighty three before he publishes his book. In nineteen eighty five, 481 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: that's when he first advances his hypothesis that this pufferfish 482 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: derives substance in particular or can explain zombies, and he 483 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: runs into he is honest in his work that he 484 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: runs into people claiming to be sorcerers and saying, hey, 485 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: I will sell you my secret create a zombie formula. 486 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: And then later he would find out that they were 487 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: just trying to rip them off. You know what I mean, 488 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: trying to make a buck, buddy. I just found something amazing. 489 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 2: It's not entirely confirmed, but one option for the deathlike 490 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: sleep inducing potion that Juliette takes is tetro totoxin. 491 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: Ahha, nice, nice, well, Doug Buckerou Oh man, do you 492 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: think Shakespeare knew about it? Or did he just say, like, ah, 493 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: we'll have to do a Shakespeare It's. 494 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 2: A good question. Yeah, I mean, like this, this is 495 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: just like a thread about it on Reddit and people 496 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 2: are talking about, you know, some possibilities and that one 497 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 2: has come up a few times. But whether the knology 498 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 2: of it all makes sense or not. 499 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: I could not say no, I hear you, because it 500 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: becomes similar to the argument of ergot poisoning. 501 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: Well, obviously puffer fish existed in the time of Shakespeare, 502 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 2: but would you know, would that have been a thing 503 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 2: that people knew about? You know, it's one of those 504 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,719 Speaker 2: things like who exact to your point, Ben, who figured 505 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 2: out that that would happen if certain crops were left 506 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 2: untended and developed these what do you call them blites? 507 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: I guess right? Or who the first person was that 508 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 2: figured out that? 509 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: You know, if you ate this particular mushroom wouldn't kill you, 510 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: but it would make you see fun stuff. 511 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 512 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: I love the idea of Shakespeare saying, well, my day 513 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: job is being a playwright, but my real passion is 514 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: puffer fish. 515 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, Shakespeare had had quite the aquarium, as I understand. 516 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: There was another idea, another substance that Wade Davis proposes 517 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: as being part of the zombie formula torah stramonium. It's 518 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: a flower and its street name is Jimson weed. So 519 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: this tetrodotoxin causes paralysis and gymsen weed induces stupefication and 520 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: memory loss. 521 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 2: Love the idea of stupefication as a side effect. Maybe 522 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: it's not a side effect, it's like the desired effect. 523 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: I'd love to see it in the fine print and 524 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: fast pronunciation of a big pharma ad. 525 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Absolutely? Can I just say, 526 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 2: ben in some of this Google rabbit hole, that this 527 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: is induced. I found an article from Scientific American called 528 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 2: Shakespeare on Drugs. I would love to see a breakdown 529 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 2: of all the different poisons and accestances in the works 530 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: of William Shakespeare, just like out there. 531 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: The Romeo and Juliet drug is not named, but I 532 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: know he talks about Hamlet. In Hamlet, Hamlet's father gets 533 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: poison in by someone pouring stuff in his. 534 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: Ear something like that. I can't the method of delivery. 535 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and someone I think it was Titiana. I got 536 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: the juice of a flower put in her eyes and 537 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: she fell in love with a guy who had a 538 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: donkey head. Shakespeare was out there, you know what I mean. Uh, 539 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: this is way before the current editing and studio process. Davis, 540 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: his book Serpent in the Rainbow is what inspires Wes 541 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: Craven to make that film adaptation, and a lot of 542 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: researchers did not vibe with the research of Wade Davis. 543 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: Other ethnobotanists were saying, look, his methodology is unsound. We 544 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: can't find evidence of the hallucinogens upon testing his samples, 545 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: because the bo is all about him meeting or real 546 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: life sorcerer or meeting or trying to meet one, and 547 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: going through all these different con men and trying to 548 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: buy the make a zombie secret formulae and then bringing 549 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 1: it back for. 550 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 2: To love the idea like make make your own zombie 551 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 2: at home, like you can get but outside of Haiti, 552 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 2: we really owe a lot of the early understanding of 553 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 2: the folklore surrounding the zombie to an anthropologist and acclaimed 554 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: Harlem Renaissance writer who you may have heard of, named 555 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 2: Zora Neil Hurston. In nineteen thirty six, she received a 556 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 2: fellowship from the Guggenheim Foundation to fund anthropological research there 557 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 2: in Haiti. When she got there, she immediately got to 558 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 2: work making friends with the locals. 559 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, networking, especially with the Voodoo community. 560 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 2: That's what you do as an anthropologist, by the way, 561 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 2: I mean that is the vibe. You're not there studying 562 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: them like under a microscope. You're mixing in. You're taking 563 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 2: in the sounds and the sites and eating the food 564 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:01,919 Speaker 2: and doing all those things. Right. 565 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to be of the people, you know, uh, 566 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: And you want to understand the folklore and the culture, 567 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: and you can't really do that just by reading a book. So, 568 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: in her quest to figure out how the practices and 569 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: the belief system of Voodoo fits in with the larger 570 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: African diaspora, Hirston meets Felicia Felix mentor and. 571 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 2: Immediately says by no, I'm sorry. 572 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: Like a by sign. Yeah, I got it. It's not 573 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: awesome song. So this character Felicia is a real person, 574 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: was believed to have been zombified. That it was believed 575 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: that a sorcerer Bokor had taken her, stolen her body, 576 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: and made her soullace one of the undead. Hirston first 577 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: hears about this from the government of Haiti, from the 578 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: Director General of the Ministry of Health, and they tell 579 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: her that this person and Felicia Felix Mentor, has been 580 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,800 Speaker 1: brought to them like two medical facilities a month earlier. 581 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: She's now in town. So if you're Hurston as an anthropologist, 582 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: this is a tremendous and disturbing opportunity. The police found 583 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: her nude laying alongside the road or shambling along the road, 584 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: apparently twenty nine years after she had been officially buried 585 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:40,240 Speaker 1: by her family. 586 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 2: Can we also just take a quick moment just to 587 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 2: acknowledge Zora Neil Hurston and her important contribution to literature 588 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 2: and to black culture or you may already be very 589 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 2: much aware, but this is a black woman who was 590 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: exploring this part of the world to understand her roots 591 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 2: and her culture and the anthropology of it all was 592 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 2: very important, and she was known for that. But she 593 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 2: was also a very well regarded fiction writer, and she 594 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 2: has a very beloved novel that is considered like a 595 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 2: centerpiece of the Harlem Renaissance called Their Eyes Were Watching God, 596 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 2: which I haven't read. 597 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: I would very much love to. It's great. I've got 598 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 1: a copy of it. If you're looking for a good book, 599 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: you can't go wrong. Zora Neil Hurston had four novels, 600 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: if I'm recalling correctly, and Their Eyes Were Watching God 601 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: as the one that really stayed with me. 602 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 2: That's the one you read in school. She also has 603 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,919 Speaker 2: books of folklore, including nineteen thirty five's Mules and Men, 604 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 2: which is another foundational text, spreading some of these sort 605 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 2: of colloquial folk tales from the rural South that she 606 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 2: experienced growing up. So fascinating human being. 607 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot of her work that's happening in 608 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: Haiti at this time is going to be found in 609 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: her later book nineteen thirty eight's Tell My Horse, Voodoo 610 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: and Life in Haiti and Jamaica, So she's not just 611 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: focusing on Haiti. But for the purposes of our zombie episode, 612 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: you got to know some disturbing stuff, folks. She went 613 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: to meet Felicia Felix Mentor, who was under the care 614 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: of authorities. However, when she shows up to this hospital, 615 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: they're outside, they're in the hospital yard. The lady who 616 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,240 Speaker 1: has been through what we can only imagine being horrific things, 617 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,720 Speaker 1: she is frightened by all this attention. She can't really communicate. 618 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: She's lost the faculty of language. She's making sounds, but 619 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 1: not necessarily words. There is a very disturbing photograph that 620 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: Hirston takes of Felicia Felix Mentor, which you can find online, 621 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: but do be aware of folks, it's not appropriate for 622 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: all audiences. And the West loved it. Man Life magazine 623 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: published this photograph throughout the land and they said it's 624 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: the first real evidence of a zombie. The trick of 625 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: it is, there's no real proof that Felicia Felix Mentor 626 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: was an actual zombie. To a lot of people who 627 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: are more skeptical and don't believe in this idea. From 628 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: their perspective, Felicia Felix Mentor is a person who is 629 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: simply suffering from mental illness, not a curse, nothing supernatural, 630 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: no secret make a zombie formula. 631 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and speaking of you know, getting slipped a Mickey 632 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 2: Hurston herself believes to she had been poisoned for being 633 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 2: seen as an interloper meddling in some of these affairs 634 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 2: there in Haiti. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 635 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: We have to point out then, as now, there are 636 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: very few resources in this part the world for people 637 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,239 Speaker 1: suffering with mental illness. You end up being cared for 638 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: by friends or loved ones at home, or you end 639 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: up being on the streets in the woods. And Hurston 640 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: sees disturbing things when she runs into the secret zombie 641 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: powder that's purportedly responsible for Felicia Felix Mentor's condition, she 642 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: is a ghast and like you were saying, The Guggenheim 643 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 1: offers her a second fellowship. They say, we like what 644 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: you're doing, we like your work. Do you want to continue? 645 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 1: And she says, no hard pass for me. I have 646 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 1: a gastric illness. I believe that I have been poisoned. 647 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. Wren points out in some of the accounts of 648 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 2: this sort of exit that she had really begun to 649 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 2: grow very superstitious, which I suppose being around some of 650 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff for a long time. We'll do that, 651 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 2: and did believe that she had been poisoned for like 652 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 2: I was saying, getting too close to some of the 653 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 2: darker sides of voodoo. But it also has pointed out 654 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 2: that she could have very much just easily contracted some 655 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 2: kind of food born bacteria when you're a different part 656 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 2: of the world. 657 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: I've certainly seen it happen. Doesn't even have to be 658 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: food that was prepared poorly. 659 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 2: It could just very much be that your gut from 660 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,720 Speaker 2: where you're from isn't up to the task of dealing 661 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,240 Speaker 2: with this particular thing that folks who live around there 662 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 2: would be completely you know, stealed against. 663 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: I guess right, like your gut bio, you're the biome 664 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: of bacteria, and all those helpful little things in your 665 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: innards are not used to the new information one hundred percent. 666 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: But words of the wise, maybe if you're traveling abroad, 667 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,280 Speaker 1: don't eat like steak, tartar and raw eggs. 668 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 2: Just putting that out there. 669 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: You know, microplastics are terrible, but bottled water is sometimes 670 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: the best band aid solution. In the book we mentioned earlier, 671 00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:00,760 Speaker 1: Tell My Horse, Hirston writes about encountering Felicia Felix Mentor, 672 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: and she concludes, what is the truth about zombies? I 673 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 1: do not know, but I know that I saw the 674 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:13,239 Speaker 1: broken remnant relic or refuse of Felicia Felix mentor in 675 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: a hospital yard. It's chilling stuff. It's incredibly dark. 676 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,760 Speaker 2: I think. But it's also said with the I guess, 677 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 2: critical thinking and observant eye of like a scientist, you 678 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 2: know what I mean, Right, It doesn't seem wrapped up 679 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 2: at hyperbole or that, you know, there's this idea that 680 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,800 Speaker 2: she was getting a little more paranoid. I don't necessarily 681 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 2: think that that superstition extended into like believing necessarily in 682 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 2: some of these more dark forces, you know. 683 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, in Hurston again just a superb writer and a 684 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 1: superb human being. 685 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 2: She is not being exploitative, clearly not. 686 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:58,720 Speaker 1: Instead, she is attempting to bring this story to the world. 687 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 1: I think we're going to have a second episode on 688 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,239 Speaker 1: zombies because there are a few more cases of this. 689 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: We do want to we do want to end, as 690 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: Red encouraged us to do, with a little bit of 691 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: you know, some final words on the spiritual belief system 692 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:22,800 Speaker 1: of voodoo. You see it all the time in Western fiction. 693 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,279 Speaker 1: There's this white savior from a Western world and he's 694 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: got a yeah, yeah, Indiana Jones and the Temple of 695 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: Doom and the mismash of folklore there really bothers me. 696 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:35,359 Speaker 2: It's really right. 697 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that one's got a great opening sequence before they 698 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 1: get into the jungle, during that like disc that dance party, 699 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,760 Speaker 1: where there's like this really elaborate, kind of heisty escape 700 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: at the very beginning, absolute peak cinema. 701 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 2: But the rest of that movie is kind of trash, 702 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,879 Speaker 2: likely partially, if not mostly, to blame by the fact 703 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 2: that they just other the hell out of these indigenous 704 00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,840 Speaker 2: people and they like cook you said, been the mishmash, 705 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 2: the very kind of gross depictions, I don't mean gross, 706 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 2: like icky gross, just of this sort of barbaric quality, 707 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 2: you know, to the people that live from that part 708 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 2: of the world. And this idea of the manner sort 709 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,919 Speaker 2: of white folks from the US coming in and being 710 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,760 Speaker 2: sort of taken aback and a gas by like eating 711 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 2: baby snakes and monkey brains really not good. Did not 712 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:21,799 Speaker 2: age well. 713 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,840 Speaker 1: You see it all the time. Way before the creation 714 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: of the United States, you would see things like this 715 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 1: coming from the European diaspora. Do you remember when we 716 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: had the like lot of the human zoos with indigenous 717 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 1: people from Africa and from Oh my God, I mean yeah, 718 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: this yeah, dark, dark stuff. So we want to establish 719 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,319 Speaker 1: here as we go into our favorite time of the year, 720 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: the Halloween season, that there may be some grain of 721 00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:00,839 Speaker 1: truth to the story of mysterious zombie powder. However, if 722 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 1: it exists, it would be incredibly uncommon for priests to 723 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: do it, for practitioners of voodoo to genuinely engage in this. 724 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: By genuinely, we mean people not doing it as a con. 725 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: We're saying people making zombie powder and they themselves believing 726 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: it works. That is, as far as we can tell, 727 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 1: exceedingly rare. And a lot of voodoo practitioners consider themselves 728 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: Christians as well. There's not a contradiction from their perspective 729 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:41,319 Speaker 1: between being Catholic and being in a voodoo community, which 730 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: I agree with. 731 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,279 Speaker 2: You know, I get it. You got to find what 732 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 2: works for you one hundred percent. And as Herston wrote 733 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,360 Speaker 2: in her memoir Dust Tracks on a Road, as direct quote, 734 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 2: Haitian ceremonies were both beautiful and terrifying. I did not 735 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 2: find any of them any more invalid than any other religion. 736 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,080 Speaker 2: I mean, dude, like the transubstantiation, eating the you know 737 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,919 Speaker 2: body of Christ and the blood of Christ. That's kind 738 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,240 Speaker 2: of barbaric and wag if you think about it, it's. 739 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: Normal because we're using you know, you're eating someone. I mean, 740 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 1: that's the idea, which is a little zombie coated in 741 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,880 Speaker 1: and of itself right there, Mande, Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ, 742 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: not the world's most famous zombie. 743 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,240 Speaker 2: There's a bit in the The Family Guy, the Great 744 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,879 Speaker 2: American Family Guy Western said something like, and it's talking 745 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,239 Speaker 2: about he's talking about Christmas being and that's when the 746 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 2: ghost of Jesus rises from the dead to feed on 747 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 2: the flesh of the living. 748 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:43,479 Speaker 1: Something I have to I don't want to step it back. 749 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,720 Speaker 1: I hope we haven't offended anybody. When we're talking about 750 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: this from an academic perspective, we're never denigrating religion. I 751 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 1: do think the Christ zombie joke is funny, but I 752 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 1: don't mean it to be offensive. And any way, we're 753 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:01,920 Speaker 1: just giving you a little haha. 754 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 2: And yeah, there's too many good bits here from Ren 755 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 2: for a tangent trivia. But I don't know if this 756 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,359 Speaker 2: is by accident, but I think we I just want 757 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 2: to end with this footnote at the bottom of this 758 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,800 Speaker 2: research brief as to what constitutes a poisoning. Right, Yeah, 759 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 2: it's so good and it feels almost like dropped in 760 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,359 Speaker 2: their apropos of nothing. But maybe we can just round 761 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 2: robin this in the cold of the day. It's considered a 762 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 2: poisoning any attempt on the life of a person through 763 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 2: the use of substances which can cause death more or 764 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,520 Speaker 2: less cleanly, regardless of the manner in which these substances 765 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 2: were used or administered, and regardless of the consequences. 766 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 1: It continues, we're paraphrasing. You could also consider poisoning a 767 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,360 Speaker 1: murder attempt if the use is made against a person 768 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 1: using substances that won't kill you, but will cause a 769 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,680 Speaker 1: more or less prolonged state of lethargy, like Juliet, regardless 770 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,359 Speaker 1: of the manner in which those substances were you stand, 771 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: regardless of the consequences. 772 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,319 Speaker 2: Again, to wrap it up, this is I think full 773 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,440 Speaker 2: circle here. If the person was buried as a consequence 774 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 2: of this state of lethargy, the attempt will be considered 775 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 2: a murder. 776 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,440 Speaker 1: So, folks, thank you for tuning in. Please stay tuned 777 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: for our upcoming episode on premature burials, because we are 778 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 1: fun at parties and it is Halloween. Very excited Nola, 779 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,239 Speaker 1: Max for some Halloween shindiggs. I'm going to we are 780 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 1: actually contemplating Mothman costumes. 781 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:34,560 Speaker 2: We might do. 782 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 1: We might do some wait Mathra or Mothman costumes. We 783 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:44,200 Speaker 1: portmanteaud together, I believe also into moth thrum Man Mathra 784 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,279 Speaker 1: g Man mathra. 785 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,000 Speaker 2: G man at suit to the to the equation. Now 786 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 2: you're a ma Threa g Man. 787 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,840 Speaker 1: As if I already don't look like a cop geez, 788 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: especially with your tom selekstash. 789 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 2: Thank you man, thank you feel like you're gonna pull 790 00:48:58,280 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 2: me over on the pch. 791 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: So we would also we should do a history of 792 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 1: the Pacific Coast high Oh my god, that must have 793 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,960 Speaker 1: been like a massive not a new deal maybe, but 794 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,400 Speaker 1: of that ILK you know, construction project. 795 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:13,879 Speaker 2: Let's do it, Let's do it. 796 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 1: Let's also wrap here because I could Max, I can 797 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 1: feel you saying, guys, this is an hour so big 798 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:27,239 Speaker 1: thanks to our super producer, mister Max Zombe Williams. Big 799 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,960 Speaker 1: thanks to Alex Williams, his biological brother, who composed. 800 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,400 Speaker 2: This track, and of course he's thanks Chris Frosciotis and 801 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,840 Speaker 2: heaves Jeff Coats here in spirit. Jonathan Strickland, the quister 802 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,839 Speaker 2: A J. Jacobs Yeah yeah, the Puzzler Yeah, but also 803 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:40,840 Speaker 2: Yates both. They're both lovely dudes. 804 00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,960 Speaker 1: And a huge thanks to Ren Fair Jones, who did 805 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,439 Speaker 1: our research for this episode and has always been thanks 806 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:48,879 Speaker 1: to you man. 807 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:50,319 Speaker 2: Some fun zombie. 808 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:54,160 Speaker 1: Talking and folks please likewise, old folks, please tune in 809 00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:59,200 Speaker 1: later this week. I've kept this mustache entirely because we're 810 00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:02,680 Speaker 1: doing it an episode on disco Balls, Ridiculous History does disco. 811 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:04,160 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. 812 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,719 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 813 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.