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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Norrie with

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Speaker 2: your Graham Phillips back with us. I'll tell you a

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Speaker 2: little bit about Graham. Also this book, Strange Fate and

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Speaker 2: Extraordinary True Story of paranormal Discovery. He wrote with Jody Russell,

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Speaker 2: who lives in the Los Angeles area. Graham lives in

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Speaker 2: the United Kingdom. He's been one of Britain's best selling

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Speaker 2: nonfiction authors for forty years. Has published twenty books concerning

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Speaker 2: historical mysteries. They include investigations in the Death of Alexander

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Speaker 2: the Great, The Secret Life of William Shakespeare, The Mystery

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Speaker 2: of King Arthur. His book also covers his search for

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Speaker 2: historical relics as the Holy Grail. He's considered a real

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Speaker 2: life Indiana Jones. Graham, Welcome back. It's been a couple

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Speaker 2: of years.

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Speaker 3: Hi, George, Yes it has, but I'm still alive and

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Speaker 3: still going.

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Speaker 2: Good for you. And how's Jody doing? What do we

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Speaker 2: hear about her?

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Speaker 3: She's fine, but I'm not sure if she's listening to this,

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Speaker 3: might be asleep, but she's in Los Angeles, so hopefully

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Speaker 3: she's awakened listening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not too late. It's only a little after midnight,

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Speaker 2: so she might be up. Hi, Jody, wherever you might be. Hey, Graham,

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Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about strange fate. Tell us

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Speaker 2: about this investigation.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's a little bit different to my other historical investigations.

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Speaker 3: It started off as an historical investigation into a secret

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Speaker 3: society that existed in the mid nineteenth century based in

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Speaker 3: central England. They claimed to have found in an old

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Speaker 3: burial mound in central England. They claim to have found

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Speaker 3: this small stone that was shaped in the shape of

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Speaker 3: a heart. They called it the Heart of the Rose,

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Speaker 3: and they believed that it had extraordinary supernatural powers, specifically

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Speaker 3: the power to alter fate time even to cross into

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Speaker 3: different universes. Now, they wrote about this in the mid

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Speaker 3: Victorian period, before things like the multiverse became popular, so

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Speaker 3: I thought it was fascinating that they even claimed to

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Speaker 3: have done this sort of stuff. But in the end,

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Speaker 3: Jody and I decided to go in search of this

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Speaker 3: stone that this strange group called the Me and Aia

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Speaker 3: group had claimed to have hidden.

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Speaker 2: This group what is the name mean? Me and Aya?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's an anagram for I am one. They believed

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Speaker 3: that different cultures throughout the world had different ways of

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Speaker 3: different forms of mysticism, like in China, India, the ancient

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Speaker 3: United Kingdom and elsewhere, and they believed that they were

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Speaker 3: all different ways of looking at the same thing. So

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Speaker 3: it was firstly an anagram for I am one, but

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Speaker 3: it was also the name of an ancient land in

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Speaker 3: what is now Turkey that they believed these stone was

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Speaker 3: originally made over three thousand years ago.

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Speaker 2: Now you were looking for, as you mentioned, the Heart

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Speaker 2: of the Rose, what is that loss relic?

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Speaker 3: Well, it hadn't been I hadn't found any reference to

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Speaker 3: it before, as you mentioned in your introduction. I researched

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Speaker 3: things like the Holy Grail and gone in search of that,

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Speaker 3: investigating all sorts of different references in history to it.

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Speaker 3: But there wasn't really any other references to this Heart

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Speaker 3: of the Rose other than what this ME and I

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Speaker 3: group wrote about it. But they claimed, for example that

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Speaker 3: in eighteen fifty one, on May the fourth, specifically that

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Speaker 3: one of the daughters of one of the people involved

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Speaker 3: in this, a girl called Mary Heath, went into an

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Speaker 3: old burial mound in central England at a place called

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Speaker 3: the Bridestones. It was around about fifteen hundred years old,

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Speaker 3: which historically speaking, dates from the kind of period that

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Speaker 3: King Arthur is said to have lived. She entered this

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Speaker 3: too while an archaeological dig was going on there, and

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Speaker 3: somehow managed to find this small stone at the heart

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Speaker 3: of the rose. When she came out, she said that

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Speaker 3: she had felt impelled to dig in a certain place

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Speaker 3: and there she found it, and afterwards she became psychic,

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Speaker 3: as the only way to describe it. She had all

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Speaker 3: sorts of strange abilities. She started telling her parents and

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Speaker 3: others in this group that all sorts of things about

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Speaker 3: themselves that they couldn't have known. And she eventually proved

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Speaker 3: herself by taking them to an old ruined church on

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Speaker 3: the not far from where this burial mound was, and

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Speaker 3: she said that if you dig down here this part

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Speaker 3: of the ruins, you'll find a stone slab, and underneath

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Speaker 3: it is an old crypt containing old documents belonging to

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Speaker 3: the knights templars from the Middle Ages, all sealed in

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Speaker 3: lead containers. And she was right. I mean, five or

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Speaker 3: six of these people all wrote separate accounts of how

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Speaker 3: this happened, so they've been led to find some ancient,

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Speaker 3: hundreds of year old manuscripts and a lost crypt by

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Speaker 3: a seven year old girl, which is absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Astonishing, incredible research. Is this stuff similar to like Stonehenge?

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Speaker 3: The burial mound is like similar to Stonehenge. Yes, right

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Speaker 3: next to it, it's about fifteen hundred years old. It

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Speaker 3: is thought to have contained one of the last druids

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Speaker 3: of Britain, the old priesthood of the Celts before the

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Speaker 3: Anglo Saxons invaded, and it was thought to have been

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Speaker 3: a woman who was the inspiration behind the Arthurian legend

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Speaker 3: of Morgan le Fee, the wizardess if you like, of

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Speaker 3: the Arthurian legend, or more Gana if she's sometimes called so.

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Speaker 3: She was supposed to have been buried seemingly with this

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Speaker 3: stone that gave her remarkable powers that this little girl found.

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Speaker 3: But right next to it there was a stone circle

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Speaker 3: that was even older about the age of Stonehenge, and

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Speaker 3: something similar to Stonehenge.

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Speaker 2: There's an area called Bidolph Grange where this group met

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Speaker 2: back in the eighteen hundreds. You write, what's so strange

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Speaker 2: about this place?

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Speaker 3: Well, once they found this stone and this little girl

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Speaker 3: that led them to all these ancient manuscripts and me

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Speaker 3: talismans that had belonged to the Knights Templar group in

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Speaker 3: the Middle Ages. They started this me Andia group based

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Speaker 3: at Bidoff Grange, an old Victorian mansion then it was

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Speaker 3: just built then, and it was on the grounds or

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Speaker 3: in the estate of this Bidoph Grange that this burial

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Speaker 3: man had been, and also this old ecclesiastical building where

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Speaker 3: they discovered this crypt. What they'd started to do then

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Speaker 3: was practice various ancient forms of mysticism. They built a

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Speaker 3: mock reconstructed Egyptian tomb on the estate. They built a

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Speaker 3: Chinese sanctuary like a pagoda and pool and other ancient

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Speaker 3: Chinese mystical sites. They built a Celtic glen, as they

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Speaker 3: called it, which was basically what the rich ancient Britons

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Speaker 3: used to worship at, which was like a sacred spring

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Speaker 3: coming out of the rocks, a pool, and also standing stones,

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Speaker 3: some of which they actually moved from right next to

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Speaker 3: the bridestones this tomb nearby. So they built these, and

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Speaker 3: they also built an underground Roman temple right under the house,

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Speaker 3: and it was here that they met and performed whatever

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Speaker 3: strange ceremonies or whatever other mystical practices they did in

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Speaker 3: the belief that they could alter fate, or even in

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Speaker 3: some cases, believe that they could travel through time or

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Speaker 3: to other worlds.

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Speaker 2: While your investigation was under Waygraham, didn't weird things start

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Speaker 2: happening to you two?

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Speaker 3: Well? Yeah, at first, I was just regarding this as

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Speaker 3: an historical investigation into a bunch of people with rather

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Speaker 3: weird beliefs. I did think that there must have been

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Speaker 3: something pretty weird going on, just beyond historical, if you like,

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Speaker 3: and more mystical, especially so because so many witnesses claimed

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Speaker 3: that this young girl was able to perform amazing feats

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Speaker 3: of prophecy or whatever you'd want to call it. But

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Speaker 3: when Jody and I visited the where the two was,

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Speaker 3: it's just a load of old stones that remain now

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Speaker 3: where this little girl, Mary Heather name was had found

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Speaker 3: this stone. We went there and suddenly, whether there's a

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Speaker 3: nice sunny day, suddenly the rain started pouring down. There

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Speaker 3: was thunder lightning, far more violent weather than you'd normally

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Speaker 3: get in England. But there was a massive cloud directly

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Speaker 3: over us that seemed to have come from nowhere were

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Speaker 3: all around us. It was completely clear that the thunderstorm

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Speaker 3: could be directly overhead, and while we were there, we

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Speaker 3: filmed what was going on while we were there on

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Speaker 3: a phone camera, and what seemed to be a kind

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Speaker 3: of ball of light seemed to shoot from these stones

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Speaker 3: and into the nearby bushes. Now people said it could

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Speaker 3: be lens flare or something, but experts had examined it

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Speaker 3: so they couldn't really explain it, but it might have

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Speaker 3: been something to do with it electrical storm one way

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Speaker 3: or the other. The storm lasted for about five minutes

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Speaker 3: and was only present when we were there at the stones,

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Speaker 3: and nowhere else in the area around.

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Speaker 2: That's pretty dramatic, isn't it. Do you think you stumbled

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Speaker 2: into some kind of like parallel universe.

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Speaker 3: Well, at the time, we just thought we'd distumbled into

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Speaker 3: some rather strange weather phenomenon. But shortly after this we

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Speaker 3: began to find out that things were rather different to

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Speaker 3: how we remembered them. For us, start bit Off Grange,

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Speaker 3: the Victorian house nearby. What all these people had met

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Speaker 3: was there was a fire there that we as far

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Speaker 3: as we know, the research that we'd carried out Jody

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Speaker 3: and I a fire that had taken place in eighteen

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Speaker 3: ninety seven. We'd written all about this, and we'd done

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Speaker 3: all the research about it. It was still in the

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Speaker 3: books that I'd written referring to it. But suddenly we

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Speaker 3: went back to the grange house itself, which is now

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Speaker 3: open to the public, and one of the we were

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Speaker 3: just discussing the history of the place if one of

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Speaker 3: the guides, who suddenly told us that this fire had

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Speaker 3: taken place in eighteen ninety six, And we said, no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: it's eighteen ninety seven, because you'll see it there on

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Speaker 3: one of the pictures that you've got showing the grange

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Speaker 3: as it used to be. But no, it had changed.

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Speaker 3: And that was just the first of a whole series

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Speaker 3: of small, little incidents that could be down to faulty memory.

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Speaker 3: But as these strange changes in dates and reality carried on,

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Speaker 3: we had to think we were in some other kind

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Speaker 3: of world. For example, there was one person we'd been

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Speaker 3: talking to a few days before who didn't even remember.

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Speaker 2: Um, that's weird. Now are there any members of this

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Speaker 2: group two offspring still alive today?

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Speaker 3: Well, this is what we're still trying to find out.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we've been investigating this or a good cup years,

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Speaker 3: I mean, on and off I've been looking into this

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Speaker 3: group for about forty years. It's only now I've gotten

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Speaker 3: to write the book about it, but that the last

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Speaker 3: of these people were called the Heath family that lived

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Speaker 3: at Bidolf Grange and ran the whole thing. Mary Heath,

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Speaker 3: a little girl, ran it for a while when she

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Speaker 3: was an adult. Her sister in law, a person called

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Speaker 3: Laura He's, took over. She died in eighteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 3: and after that the group seems to have broken up.

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Speaker 3: There were offspring, but these people didn't seem to know

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Speaker 3: very much about it. We found one family who had

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Speaker 3: old documents written by the me and I a group

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Speaker 3: that were kind of hidden away up in their attic.

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Speaker 3: They really didn't understand the significance of them and had

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Speaker 3: no idea of what their ancestors had been doing. So

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Speaker 3: we're still looking for people today who may still today

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Speaker 3: be carrying on whatever this group were doing.

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Speaker 2: Were they like strange people in those days? I mean,

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Speaker 2: were they violent and older?

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Speaker 3: Though no, not in the slightest. The interesting thing is

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Speaker 3: most of them were women. They came from rich families

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Speaker 3: that lived in stately homes throughout Britain. They who then

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Speaker 3: traveled to bid Off Grange for these meetings. They included

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Speaker 3: a number of female pre Raphaelite artists. They were mainly women,

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Speaker 3: as I say, female pre Raphaelite artists, writers, and also

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Speaker 3: people who were pacifists and specifically a lot of women

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Speaker 3: who were into the early sort of years of feminism.

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Speaker 3: They were some of the people that were involved in

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Speaker 3: campaigning for votes for women women's rights, generally at a

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Speaker 3: time when they was extremely unpopular, and from the few

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Speaker 3: writings we have got from this group, it seems that

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Speaker 3: they wanted to try and add mysticism to their intentions

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Speaker 3: of changing the world to some degree so that women

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Speaker 3: got a far better lot. They were known as the

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Speaker 3: first wave feminists, and a lot of the ones who

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Speaker 3: started the votes for Women's campaigns both in America and

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Speaker 3: this country and other women's rights groups were also members

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Speaker 3: of this mystical me and I group who seemed to

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Speaker 3: be trying to use the paranormal if you like, or

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Speaker 3: the supernatural to change the world in favor of more

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Speaker 3: equality for women. So opposite of being violent Graham.

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Speaker 2: When Lewis Carroll wrote Alice in Wonderland, was he somehow

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Speaker 2: stumbling into this tool?

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Speaker 3: Yes, he did. It was quite interesting because just a

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Speaker 3: few months after this little girl Mary Heath discovered this

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Speaker 3: stone pretty much started the whole thing off. Once she

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Speaker 3: had found this old crypt, that's when the group started.

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Speaker 3: A few months later, in the summer of eighteen fifty one,

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Speaker 3: her father and mother went to stay at a nearby

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Speaker 3: other stately home belonging to a man called Lord Halifax,

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Speaker 3: who was a member of the British government. He was

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Speaker 3: an extraordinary wealthy man. Mary's father, Robert, was into mining,

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Speaker 3: coal mining and iron production. He was staying with Lord

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Speaker 3: Halifax as ongoing meetings and discussions about mining rights on

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Speaker 3: the Halifax estate. So Robert and Ann, his wife, went

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Speaker 3: with them, and so did little Mary, the oldest child

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Speaker 3: and who was just seven at the time, went and

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Speaker 3: stayed with them at this house. Interestingly, at exactly that time,

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Speaker 3: Lewis Carroll was the tutor to the children of Lord Halifax,

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Speaker 3: and it was at that point that he first came

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Speaker 3: up with the ideas in tandem for both of the

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Speaker 3: Alice books, Alice in Wonder vand Analyze through the Looking Glass.

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Speaker 3: And it wasn't until many years later that the story

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Speaker 3: was published, but he always claimed he had based his

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Speaker 3: story in eighteen fifty one on a real little girl who,

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Speaker 3: according to the books, is exactly seven and a half

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Speaker 3: years old. Now, some people have suggested that he based

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Speaker 3: it on one of the children the girls of Lord Halifax,

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Speaker 3: but none of them were that age. But Mary Heath,

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Speaker 3: who was staying there, who was probably also for a

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Speaker 3: short while shooted by Lewis Carroll, was that exact age.

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Speaker 3: She was staying there. She'd just recently remember crawled into

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Speaker 3: a hole in the ground, into a tomb. She'd come

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Speaker 3: out saying she'd been to a fantastic land where all

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Speaker 3: sorts of strange things had happened. They put that down

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Speaker 3: to imagination. And this may be whereas he was in

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Speaker 3: spe to write the story of Alice in Wonderland.

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Speaker 2: That's fascinating. Might they've been this group stumbling into time travel?

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Speaker 3: Well, the time travel bit is quite weird. That they

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Speaker 3: claimed that they could see through time. They didn't that. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: the evidence we've got is rather fragmentary in documentation. But

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Speaker 3: what happened on one occasion Jody and I went into

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Speaker 3: the mock Egyptian tomb that I was telling you about,

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Speaker 3: into a central, dank, cold chamber that's there and in

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Speaker 3: there there's the figure of a statue they put of

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Speaker 3: an ancient Egyptian god called Arne, also known as the

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Speaker 3: Ape of Thoth. It's like a human sized baboon creature

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Speaker 3: who was supposed to be the lord of time. And

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Speaker 3: in that particular chamber, Jody was filming me, just talking

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Speaker 3: about it for a YouTube thing I was doing, and

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Speaker 3: when the film came out on it you can see

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Speaker 3: quite clearly. It's dark, but you can see that there's

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Speaker 3: a figure seemingly of a Victorian lady standing there looking

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Speaker 3: at me as I walk past. And the couple of

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Speaker 3: weeks before that, Jody had had this vision. She does

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Speaker 3: meditation quite often and sometimes she does get experiences of

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Speaker 3: things that are you know, that proved to be accurate

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Speaker 3: that she couldn't have known about, And she had dreamt

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Speaker 3: of this actual event taking place, and she'd seen me

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Speaker 3: in the future to her standing next to this woman

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Speaker 3: exactly that I had appeared on this film, a woman

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Speaker 3: in Victorian clothes who was seemingly was able to see

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Speaker 3: me because she turned and looked at me as she

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Speaker 3: went past. So it appears that there was both past,

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Speaker 3: present and future nighting in one place and that's just

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Speaker 3: one example.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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