Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my.
Speaker 1: Ball in a brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday,
Speaker 1: Frida Egg, Brian Egg, fridagg Bride Egg, Lie, I'm about
Speaker 1: ready to run off of the hump.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Golf Podcast.
Speaker 2: I am your co host, Andy Johnson. I am joined
Speaker 2: by our other co host, Garrett Morrison. Garrett, welcome on.
Speaker 1: You've demoted yourself to co host.
Speaker 2: Well, if I'm hosting by myself, I say I'm the host.
Speaker 1: I see.
Speaker 2: But if I'm hosting with you, I would say I'm
Speaker 2: a co host because.
Speaker 1: You're it's situational. Yeah, I also do host some Friday podcasts,
Speaker 1: but you did found this podcast, so I feel like
Speaker 1: you should be giving yourself the host title without the co.
Speaker 2: Well today, I'm the co Okay. This is a joint,
Speaker 2: you know, and you're a humble man. It begs the question,
Speaker 2: if there's two hosts, do you have one?
Speaker 1: If there's three hosts, do you have one. Joseph is
Speaker 1: also a host. He talked to Dodo that was hosting.
Speaker 2: He is he's a new host has entered the ring.
Speaker 2: That was an interesting podcast. I like that really good. Yeah,
Speaker 2: people should listen to that one. In addition to listening
Speaker 2: to this one. Dodo explain the virtues of the old course.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Who who would have thought that the old course
Speaker 1: would be would be one of the few strategic courses left,
Speaker 1: and that Augusta National would in fact be a good
Speaker 1: driving course. I mean we've we've heard all along that
Speaker 1: these are just hipster courses that only golf architecture nuts like.
Speaker 1: But it turns out that was that was not correct.
Speaker 2: You know, this is completely off topic. We're going to
Speaker 2: do a golf architecture mail bag, but it was it
Speaker 2: was interesting just to hear how like you know, he's
Speaker 2: obviously data heavy pro golfer, just like the through line
Speaker 2: of all the things he likes about a golf course
Speaker 2: are fair. Like he likes the if the more you
Speaker 2: miss it offline, the more the penalty should be. Right,
Speaker 2: And the one thing that he doesn't like about about
Speaker 2: Augusta National is how how tight the line is?
Speaker 1: You know, like how I'm thirteen and fifteen, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how if you can hit a great approach shot
Speaker 2: or a good approach shot in it, and it's penalized.
Speaker 1: Right, I think, to Dodo's credit or in his defense,
Speaker 1: I guess the reason that he likes the graded penalties
Speaker 1: off the tee, Like, if you miss the fairway by
Speaker 1: a little bit, it's a little bit of a penalty.
Speaker 1: If you missed the fairway by a lot, it's a
Speaker 1: lot of a penalty. I think he likes that, not
Speaker 1: necessarily because it's fair, but because it makes play think
Speaker 1: in interesting ways on the tee. If the penalties are
Speaker 1: all kind of the same off the fairway, then there's
Speaker 1: not much thinking to be done off the tee. If
Speaker 1: there are these different areas that are more penal than others, however,
Speaker 1: then some thought enters into club selection and target and
Speaker 1: all that for the pro golfer. That's something to keep
Speaker 1: in mind here is that he thinks of these things
Speaker 1: in terms of pro golf, and he acknowledges that as well.
Speaker 1: But it brings to mind what I think is a
Speaker 1: great role for a modern golf architect who designs to
Speaker 1: or courses, and that is to retain a little bit
Speaker 1: of randomness and a little bit of unfairness, and an
Speaker 1: impulse to introduce some whimsy and some things that bother
Speaker 1: pros into their designs, because if they just do what
Speaker 1: pros like, then courses will become pretty predictable and manuscactured
Speaker 1: the same. Right, So it's the architect's job to retain
Speaker 1: a little bit of that spirit of randomness and eccentricity
Speaker 1: in their designs, as well as learning what they can
Speaker 1: learn from modern pros and from analytics.
Speaker 2: I mean, whimsy and things. All I can think about
Speaker 2: is the social reel. I just watched you do that
Speaker 2: about Saint George Golf and how dozens of people might
Speaker 2: be watching j tour event there is that?
Speaker 1: Is that a whimsical moment for me? Yeah?
Speaker 2: It was a whimsy call. It was. It was filled
Speaker 2: with whimsy and character. We can't allow we can't allow
Speaker 2: all of our golf course social reels just to become
Speaker 2: AI generated scripts. You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've We've been exchanged. It's a scourge on Instagram.
Speaker 1: I didn't even realize the proportions of it. Our colleagues
Speaker 1: Matt Rusius and Cameron Hurtis have been sending me Slack
Speaker 1: messages of all the different reels out there about Saint
Speaker 1: George Golf. Just these accounts that I've never heard of
Speaker 1: that have one hundred thousand followers and have completely AI
Speaker 1: generated or just soullessly chat bought written content. I can't
Speaker 1: believe what's going on on Instagram. What's happening here?
Speaker 2: It's it's people could play it about acts, but but
Speaker 2: the the the Instagram accounts that are recommending golf courses
Speaker 2: without ever stepping foot on them is uh is amazing and.
Speaker 1: Using not their footage, footage that they shot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well this they can take anything. That's the That's
Speaker 2: the world of the internet.
Speaker 1: It's on.
Speaker 2: Dot e A. Let's get into it, Donnie, do the
Speaker 2: mail bag.
Speaker 1: Just to be clear, yea, extra clear to people. You
Speaker 1: mentioned this already, Andy. What we're doing here is a
Speaker 1: golf architecture mail bag. We put out a call for
Speaker 1: questions in Club tf E, which is Fridagg's membership, the
Speaker 1: Friday dot Com slash membership check it out. We put
Speaker 1: out a call for questions in there as well as
Speaker 1: on Twitter. So we're going to be doing a grab
Speaker 1: bag of questions from people about calf architecture.
Speaker 2: This is why your co host, right rre some.
Speaker 1: Some clarity, some scaffolding let's it's you.
Speaker 2: Know, if I was the host and you were my guest,
Speaker 2: that's right that you wouldn't be That would be crossing
Speaker 2: a line you.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't feel licensed.
Speaker 2: So for stepping your bounds.
Speaker 1: Have been totally rude. Yeah, absolutely, dot e A.
Speaker 2: What did Garrett think of Highland Links on Cape Cod?
Speaker 2: This is from one of your recent trips.
Speaker 1: Doni A. I really enjoyed Highland Links. For those who
Speaker 1: haven't heard of it, it's way out on Cape Cod.
Speaker 2: Like so far yea, so far out, the.
Speaker 1: Farthest golf course out by a lot on Cape Cod.
Speaker 1: It's pretty damn near Provincetown. So it's in a place
Speaker 1: where you just don't see many golf courses and where
Speaker 1: you wouldn't build a golf course now because it's National
Speaker 1: parkland for one thing, and a lot of that area
Speaker 1: is protected. But it's in a beautiful location, kind of
Speaker 1: on high cliffs above the ocean. You know. The word
Speaker 1: on Highland Links. The thing that people always say about
Speaker 1: it is that it's one of the few truly authentic
Speaker 1: links golf courses in America. I'm not sure I would
Speaker 1: go that far that this isn't exactly sand dunes out here,
Speaker 1: but it is sandy soil, which is fun to see
Speaker 1: in the Greater Boston area because most of the courses
Speaker 1: there are built on rock and heavy clay. This is
Speaker 1: definitely lighter sandy or soil that this very old golf
Speaker 1: course is built on. So it's built long ago by
Speaker 1: who knows which architect, basically an amateur architect. There is
Speaker 1: a name out there, I'm sorry, I don't know it,
Speaker 1: but it's just a humble nine hole course, public affordable
Speaker 1: to play, not super affordable to play, but you can
Speaker 1: go out there and pay a green fee and not
Speaker 1: feel like you've gotten fleeced. And it's just nine holes
Speaker 1: of very straightforward natural golf. The site is surprisingly hilly.
Speaker 1: That's one thing that kind of took me by surprise
Speaker 1: when we were going around that golf course. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of up and down, but it's really all about
Speaker 1: location there and just the general vibe of playing golf
Speaker 1: on these beautiful, you know, sort of environmentally sensitive looking,
Speaker 1: very well preserved cliffs above the ocean next to a
Speaker 1: very old lighthouse. So just being out there was a
Speaker 1: delight In terms of park, right, it's a national park. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so we went out there and I went up
Speaker 1: to the pro shop person as I usually do at
Speaker 1: public courses that we want to shoot and haven't contacted
Speaker 1: people before, and I said, hey, do you think it
Speaker 1: would be okay if we flew our drone out here?
Speaker 1: And right at that moment my colleague Cameron realized at
Speaker 1: the same time that the pro shop person was telling
Speaker 1: me you can't fly a drone here because it's a
Speaker 1: national park. Don't do that. It's against the law. You
Speaker 1: get in big trouble if you've done it. So if
Speaker 1: you see any Highland Links footage out there, chance somewhere
Speaker 1: on the internet. If you go, if somebody has drone
Speaker 1: footage of Highland Links, just keep in mind that they're
Speaker 1: not supposed to have that. But it's a very cool course.
Speaker 1: People should go and check it out for sure. In
Speaker 1: terms of golf course design, pure golf course design, a
Speaker 1: lot of nine whole courses in New England are more
Speaker 1: sophisticated than this one. I would point to Old Salem Greens,
Speaker 1: which I saw on this same trip and kind of
Speaker 1: blew my mind how good it was. But just for
Speaker 1: an absolute throwback to golf as it was in an
Speaker 1: earlier time, Highland Links pretty cool place to go.
Speaker 2: It seems like just the journey out there is the
Speaker 2: part of the allure of it too.
Speaker 1: That's what I was excited about. We kind of we
Speaker 1: stopped in a town that's like just across the street
Speaker 1: basically from Highland Links, and went to a little market
Speaker 1: there to get some sandwiches, and they were super friendly,
Speaker 1: and it was just a whole well experience. You know,
Speaker 1: it's almost like island living out there because you're so
Speaker 1: far out on the cape.
Speaker 2: Awesome, awesome.
Speaker 1: All right, Andy, I have a question for you. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about walkability. Got an interesting question from Jake R.
Speaker 1: Schambeau in Club TF and his question is, basically, is
Speaker 1: it even fair to judge a walkable routing versus an
Speaker 1: unwalkable one. One of the most difficult things about routing
Speaker 1: a course is stitching eighteen holes closely enough together so
Speaker 1: it's walkable. So if a course doesn't accomplish that, it's
Speaker 1: not even playing by the same set of rules. So
Speaker 1: I'll reframe the question slightly. If a course is unwalkable
Speaker 1: but otherwise really great, how do you go about assessing it?
Speaker 1: Is there a ceiling to how good a golf course
Speaker 1: can be if you can't walk it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think if the I think this is an
Speaker 2: interesting question to me, if if you could have come
Speaker 2: up with a walkable routing, I think it's probably a
Speaker 2: slight to merit, but I think there are certain places,
Speaker 2: like on a mountain golf course, where he just might
Speaker 2: not be able to do it. A great Yeah, Capellou
Speaker 2: would be a great example. This is an architecture team
Speaker 2: that's made like you know, that's turned so many places
Speaker 2: that a lot of people thought were unwalkable into walkable
Speaker 2: golf courses. And you know, from that standpoint, I do
Speaker 2: think it is so I think it's like kind of
Speaker 2: like like anything. I think there's an economy vale like
Speaker 2: the value of economy, and that's part of great golf
Speaker 2: architecture is being able to pack things in and provide
Speaker 2: a you know, a great eighteen hole experience over a
Speaker 2: you know, finite piece of property. You know you could
Speaker 2: you know, think about you could if you had sand hills.
Speaker 2: Think about how spectacular the golf course could have been
Speaker 2: if you had five hole by hole with if you
Speaker 2: had had five minute cart rides between each hole right now.
Speaker 1: And if you just go looking for like the best
Speaker 1: golf holes. Yeah, like there would have done that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you would have taken that approach to the site for sure.
Speaker 2: And you have like a five minute cart ride. But
Speaker 2: like the when you have them close together, that adds
Speaker 2: the experience of that kind of like flow to the round,
Speaker 2: which I think is super important. And that's like a
Speaker 2: subliminal thing that a lot of people might not realize,
Speaker 2: but like you know when you are when you're close together.
Speaker 2: One thing I noticed recently. I played golf in a
Speaker 2: cart recently and it was a foursome and what we
Speaker 2: you like, you don't talk to each other very much,
Speaker 2: like I knew that, like you talk to the person
Speaker 2: in your cart, you don't talk as a group. But
Speaker 2: what I noticed we just spent more time on tea
Speaker 2: boxes and greens talking as a group because of it,
Speaker 2: like versus when you're walking right, you're like going from
Speaker 2: area to area. But I think like the best thing
Speaker 2: is like when it's like a tight green to tea,
Speaker 2: you know when part of the beauty of that is
Speaker 2: like how you're you're all on the green together and
Speaker 2: you just like easily walk over to the tee and
Speaker 2: you all together. The longer you walk if you're in
Speaker 2: a walking group, the more likely you you part likewise
Speaker 2: in a cart round, the closer the tee is to
Speaker 2: the green the next tee, the more likely you're going
Speaker 2: to park the cart close to the tee and you
Speaker 2: don't have to get back in the cart and move
Speaker 2: it to the te So there is like walkable courses
Speaker 2: are also better cartball courses because.
Speaker 1: It's interesting point.
Speaker 2: They keep you as as group together more with the proximity, right,
Speaker 2: it's more like.
Speaker 1: Time spent in proximity and less just like driving by yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're able to carry conversations easier from green
Speaker 2: to tea. Like. Part of the reason you play golf
Speaker 2: is for that, like the conversation and the camaraderie with
Speaker 2: your group. And the better design the golf course is,
Speaker 2: the better routed it is as a whole, the more
Speaker 2: conducive of it is to that camaraderie.
Speaker 1: Yes, there's a whole silent element to golf course design
Speaker 1: and routing that is social in nature. Having greens and
Speaker 1: teas close to each other, yes, between holes, but also
Speaker 1: between one part of the round and the other. That
Speaker 1: that whole social experience of a golf course that's designed
Speaker 1: that way is to me a lot more fulfilling than
Speaker 1: a golf course that prioritizes isolating holes from each other
Speaker 1: and making each hole feel like a world unto itself.
Speaker 1: So there are many ways that golf course design and
Speaker 1: routing can enhance the social experience of being on a
Speaker 1: golf course, which I think most people would agree is
Speaker 1: the greatest thing about golf is getting to know other
Speaker 1: golfers and spending that long amount of time with them.
Speaker 1: I mean, when else do we get to spend that
Speaker 1: amount of time with people. Basically four hours straight or
Speaker 1: if it's slow out there, five hours straight. That's a
Speaker 1: good amount of time to get to know somebody. It's
Speaker 1: a great social experience if you enjoy the people, and
Speaker 1: a golf course design that can certainly enhance that. But
Speaker 1: to get back to the question walkable courses versus unwalkable courses,
Speaker 1: do we give like a little bump to the walkable ones?
Speaker 1: I met out where you do where I look at
Speaker 1: the piece of land and consider what this course is
Speaker 1: trying to be. If it's a big time mountain course
Speaker 1: and it's hard to walk, then there's a reason for that.
Speaker 1: The piece of land just wouldn't allow for a super
Speaker 1: walkable course to be built, and that is understandable. You
Speaker 1: look at a course like Wolf Creek and Mesquite which
Speaker 1: is so unwalkable that it's almost undrivable. There are parts
Speaker 1: where your cart is like skidding downhill at that course,
Speaker 1: it's like, it's pretty wild. I don't look at that
Speaker 1: course and say it's unwalkable, because it's almost redundant to
Speaker 1: say that. From the beginning, it was going to be
Speaker 1: this kind of amusement park ride golf course. And it's
Speaker 1: cool that they got to build a course on this
Speaker 1: piece of land because you wouldn't be able to do
Speaker 1: it if we didn't have golf court golf carts. So
Speaker 1: there's that. But I find that when I'm thinking about
Speaker 1: how much I like a course, I give a subconscious
Speaker 1: bump to the ones that are a pleasant walk that
Speaker 1: are more walkable than others. I start giving a bump
Speaker 1: to courses that are flatter because I just more fondly
Speaker 1: remember the experience of playing them. It took less out
Speaker 1: of me to walk them. It allowed me energy for
Speaker 1: other things, for looking at the architecture, for talking to
Speaker 1: my playing partners, for appreciating my surroundings. Because I wasn't
Speaker 1: putting f into the walk, I was able to enjoy
Speaker 1: so many other things. More I think of, of course,
Speaker 1: like caper Rundle, great golf course, I might overrat it
Speaker 1: a little bit.
Speaker 2: I think I overrated it too.
Speaker 1: I think there are aspects of that course that are
Speaker 1: maybe not great, Like the routing is kind of back
Speaker 1: and forth. Sometimes it's pretty flat out there. But one
Speaker 1: of the reasons I overrat it. Obviously, the greens are
Speaker 1: world class, and that's the whole thing about the course.
Speaker 1: But I think the reason I overrat it is that
Speaker 1: it's so easily walkable, and I fondly remember my experience
Speaker 1: there partly for that reason. So that would be my
Speaker 1: answer to that. I have a bias toward super walkable courses.
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure whether I feel good about that
Speaker 1: or bad about that. It's just something I do.
Speaker 2: All right, Let's take a quick break to talk about
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Speaker 2: thanks to Stripe. And let's get back to our podcast
Speaker 2: with Garrett Morrison. All right, Garrett, here is your next
Speaker 2: Your next question here from Jacob Spurgeon. I guess this
Speaker 2: is for both of us. What are some of the
Speaker 2: projects that will finish in twenty twenty five that you
Speaker 2: two are most interested in? Also, yeah, we'll just start
Speaker 2: with that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he has an additional question there. Yeah, why
Speaker 1: don't we just quickly mention some ongoing projects that are interesting?
Speaker 1: All pick out two or three? You pick out two
Speaker 1: or three really high potential golf course being built in
Speaker 1: Minnesota by Ogilvy Cocking and Mead Tepatanka looks pretty awesome.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly when they're planning to open, but
Speaker 1: I assume, since we're talking about Minnesota here, it's going
Speaker 1: to be when it warms up next year.
Speaker 2: Honest, it could be.
Speaker 1: It could be a little longer some of these courses
Speaker 1: that we're talking about as twenty twenty five courses. Timelines
Speaker 1: with golf course builds, especially right now that a lot
Speaker 1: of the contractors are are really busy and not necessarily
Speaker 1: available at the times that you predict that they'll be
Speaker 1: available at irrigation and drainage and all that stuff that
Speaker 1: you need to build a golf course. As a result
Speaker 1: of that, timelines are getting a bit messy, But that
Speaker 1: course I have my eye on. I also am really
Speaker 1: looking forward to seeing what they do at wild Spring Dunes,
Speaker 1: which is the new Kaiser family project out in Texas.
Speaker 1: I think that looks like a fantastic piece of land.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to see what the architects that they're working
Speaker 1: with there will do with that land. It is the
Speaker 1: you know, the usual architects that the Kaiser family works with,
Speaker 1: initially Corn Crenshaw and Tom Doak, and so I think
Speaker 1: those courses will be will be quite good. And then
Speaker 1: you know a project that might not be wrapping up
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five. I'm not sure exactly what the
Speaker 1: timeline is. Cabot Pacific out in the wilds of British Columbia,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure when I'm going to get to this
Speaker 1: golf course, which you could say about a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of Cabot owned resorts. It's pretty remote. But
Speaker 1: this is a whitman excellent and cutting golf course in
Speaker 1: the mountains. I'm sure that there's going to be some
Speaker 1: inspiration from Stanley Thompson because of the the location and
Speaker 1: the environment and the architects involved. So that should be
Speaker 1: a fun project to follow as well. Possibly twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: I know they're working on the course, but not sure
Speaker 1: exactly when when they're planning to open. What are you
Speaker 1: looking forward to.
Speaker 2: One off the bat seven mile beach down in Tasmania. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: the photos, the land look out of this world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that not only location which is amazing, but also terrain.
Speaker 1: This is a course that's not only in a very
Speaker 1: cool seaside location kind of a spit of land right
Speaker 1: outside Hobart, but the terrain.
Speaker 2: That's that's the thing that draws me. It just looks
Speaker 2: like great scaled golf. And I think you know, I
Speaker 2: was with Mike Devree a couple of weeks ago and
Speaker 2: he said it's like the best piece of piece of
Speaker 2: land for golf he's ever seen. And obviously, you know,
Speaker 2: if we went down, if we trust, if we said
Speaker 2: use that with every architect that's ever said there's something
Speaker 2: along those.
Speaker 1: Courses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, about two hundred of those. But I do I
Speaker 2: do trust Mike and what what do you say there?
Speaker 2: So that's one that is at the top of of
Speaker 2: kind of my list. Another one that I think just
Speaker 2: from you know, is Punta Brava, the Tom Doak Course
Speaker 2: uh In in Mexico. I don't know if it will
Speaker 2: be done. Sounds like that's just been a if.
Speaker 1: You look at the land, you can see why it
Speaker 1: might not be done anytime soon.
Speaker 2: Like a he calls it like part in our part
Speaker 2: archaeology project where they're doing like all this archaeology throughout it.
Speaker 2: That one is uh I mean, just like a spectacular
Speaker 2: little pocket of land. So those are the two that
Speaker 2: kind of stand out to me. Another one that I'm
Speaker 2: I'm excited to see that's probably like that, you know,
Speaker 2: just like a renovation project is Chevy Chase in Washington,
Speaker 2: d C.
Speaker 1: With Sup Britain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's it's a renovation I you know, it
Speaker 2: was of course with like kind of a muddled history.
Speaker 2: A lot of different architects work there, and I think
Speaker 2: what I appreciate about it is like the idea of like, hey,
Speaker 2: we're not going to glorify that we were like at
Speaker 2: one point a six out of ten, you know, our
Speaker 2: best self we were, we were a six out of ten.
Speaker 2: We're just gonna and we're not going to go back
Speaker 2: to that. We're going to just go for it. We're
Speaker 2: going and we're going to build something cool, you know,
Speaker 2: and different and unique. And I think this is like
Speaker 2: something that a lot of golf courses should do. Like
Speaker 2: even if Don Ross is on your on your name, say,
Speaker 2: is your name's sake? Like what what always? Like, you know,
Speaker 2: especially recently, has like confused me sometimes is like these
Speaker 2: golf courses, I'm not going to name names or anything here.
Speaker 2: Some of them have decided to, some are deciding to
Speaker 2: or in the process of deciding to. It's like we're
Speaker 2: gonna shut down for a year, spend fifteen million to
Speaker 2: twenty million dollars. We're gonna come out just like fractionally
Speaker 2: better because of it, because we never were great.
Speaker 1: Usually brighter green, brighter white, and the bunkers. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: that's pretty much it.
Speaker 2: So like and I you know, I think part of
Speaker 2: the blame, most of the blame goes to the club.
Speaker 2: It's like keeping up with the Jones is type situation.
Speaker 2: Right now. It's like, well, somebody else is down the
Speaker 2: street and we're flushed with cash, so we need to
Speaker 2: do something. You know, we got to keep pace. But
Speaker 2: then also like the architects that are just you know,
Speaker 2: are just doing these renovations, and it's like, well like
Speaker 2: if I squint, I can I can see how it
Speaker 2: gets a little better. But like, you know, I do
Speaker 2: believe like if you've got a good property and the
Speaker 2: golf course is just kind of meh, maybe let's look
Speaker 2: at like the property and say, what if we just
Speaker 2: go plan our foot and go in a different direction.
Speaker 2: Because this never has been one of the best courses
Speaker 2: in the area. And if we're gonna spend fifteen to
Speaker 2: twenty million dollars and we don't get one of the
Speaker 2: best golf course in the area, what are we doing?
Speaker 2: And that's something I really appreciate about, Like what Madonna
Speaker 2: has done. The way Hazeltine is thinking about their project
Speaker 2: is like nothing's off the table. We know, like this
Speaker 2: is isn't great, but we know we can have something great.
Speaker 2: And I think, like, if you're gonna what like the
Speaker 2: trend of this golf of the recent movement is like
Speaker 2: full shut down. It's not just like you know, I
Speaker 2: I find I think you're in the same boat. I
Speaker 2: really like kind of like the the go go with
Speaker 2: the flow. We're going to do a couple of things
Speaker 2: a year, and I understand like the pitfalls of that.
Speaker 2: If you want to do like a new bunker style
Speaker 2: like how it could be Hodgepodge and you know, you
Speaker 2: technically save money over time, you know, on the total
Speaker 2: project cost if you shut down. But like on the
Speaker 2: flip side of it, I do think there's a lot
Speaker 2: of high profile, high high expense projects that are being
Speaker 2: done where you know, in some cases there is just
Speaker 2: a very very marginal improvement, and that improvement could be
Speaker 2: actually like viewed by some as a not improvement because
Speaker 2: the golf course just lost its like old character.
Speaker 1: Well, I would say that the argument that you might
Speaker 1: save money or be more efficient by doing it all
Speaker 1: at once presumes that you will never again need to
Speaker 1: make changes to the golf course or that it will
Speaker 1: be perfect when it comes out of that initial process.
Speaker 1: Part of the beauty of the more long term approach,
Speaker 1: which I agree is not appropriate in every single case,
Speaker 1: but part of the virtue of that is that you
Speaker 1: can test ideas over the long term, see what works
Speaker 1: on that site and with that golf course and learn
Speaker 1: from it, and eventually you end up with a course
Speaker 1: that's kind of finished that doesn't need to be monkeyed with. Further,
Speaker 1: if you do things all at once, you're risking that
Speaker 1: it won't come out all that well and you'll need
Speaker 1: to kind of go back and fix it and spend
Speaker 1: more money and just keep doing these projects. And we've
Speaker 1: seen that happen at a lot of high profile courses.
Speaker 1: The courses that have the most money's are the ones
Speaker 1: that are most likely to be caught in this kind
Speaker 1: of vicious circle. All right. Anyway, going back to Chevy
Speaker 1: Chase real quick, I think that people who look at
Speaker 1: Andrew Green's recent work and are like, I wish you
Speaker 1: would change it up a little bit, keep an eye
Speaker 1: on what he's doing at Chevy Chase. I think it
Speaker 1: might be it might be different there. And part of
Speaker 1: the part of what's going on there, I believe from
Speaker 1: what I've heard, is that you have a strong superintendent
Speaker 1: whom you and I know, Stephen Britain, and that is
Speaker 1: a key collaborator in this process. And at any of
Speaker 1: these courses doing renovation work restoration work, the superintendent is
Speaker 1: a key voice and if they you know, are just
Speaker 1: kind of like they just want the usual stuff. Then
Speaker 1: the usual stuff is what they're going to get. But
Speaker 1: if they pushed for something new, something specific, then that's
Speaker 1: what they're going to get out of out of these architects.
Speaker 1: Can I go into a question that's kind of related
Speaker 1: to this and just frame it a little you know,
Speaker 1: the question reframes what we're talking about a little bit.
Speaker 1: This is from Michael Chadwick in Club TFE and it's
Speaker 1: a long question. My apologies Michael paraphrase what you're saying here,
Speaker 1: but he senses, as you do, Andy, that the next
Speaker 1: phase of golf course project work at old golf courses
Speaker 1: is probably going to involve more redesign work than has
Speaker 1: been done in the past twenty five years at most
Speaker 1: high profile Golden Age golf courses. And Michael's concern is
Speaker 1: that in allowing ourselves to redesign courses, we could repeat
Speaker 1: the sins of the fifties and sixties, when every club
Speaker 1: brought in Robert tran Jones or Dick Wilson or whoever
Speaker 1: and said, redo our courses, make him modern. Don't worry
Speaker 1: about what was there before, let's redesign. And it turned
Speaker 1: out that that wasn't a good path, and a lot
Speaker 1: of courses are now undoing that work, And so how
Speaker 1: do we avoid falling into the same trap if we
Speaker 1: start redesigning golf courses? How do we know what we're
Speaker 1: doing is not just the same thing that was done
Speaker 1: in the fifties and sixties, and that we'll have to,
Speaker 1: you know, get rid of it all again in a
Speaker 1: couple of decades.
Speaker 2: I think the what you have to kind of look
Speaker 2: at as the barrier of like if we put back
Speaker 2: like this is hard to do, it's hard to envision.
Speaker 2: But if we put back what was originally here rather
Speaker 2: than redesign, like are we great? You know? And if
Speaker 2: it's like to me, like if you're not one of
Speaker 2: the best, you know, it depends on what market you're in,
Speaker 2: you know, But if you're in a sparse golf market,
Speaker 2: if we're not one of the best three or four
Speaker 2: courses in the area. If we do this and in
Speaker 2: some some cases the best, the why are we doing it?
Speaker 2: And I think, like, you know, that's the the hard
Speaker 2: thing to come to grips too, is like it. And
Speaker 2: then also there's like a feasibility like can we actually
Speaker 2: put back what used to be there here because like
Speaker 2: in a lot of cases, like there's been a lot
Speaker 2: of work all along the way. So like to me,
Speaker 2: I was thinking about this the other day. I think
Speaker 2: there's like most of the talk about golf courses right
Speaker 2: now is like we're in this bubble and when is
Speaker 2: it gonna collapse? Like is the talk. But like that
Speaker 2: that's actually like kind of like pooh poohing, Like there's
Speaker 2: so many great golf courses being built right now, like
Speaker 2: that are like fun, engaging, Like we are in an
Speaker 2: unbelievable moment of golf course design and everybody's waiting for
Speaker 2: to just like drop and fall.
Speaker 1: And I've noticed this as well. It's like we're looking
Speaker 1: for to be anxious about.
Speaker 2: I played like a new course the other day, and
Speaker 2: I was just like floored about, like how fought it was.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to play. I want I like couldn't
Speaker 2: wait to go back and play more. And I think
Speaker 2: like I played, I've played such Valley a couple times
Speaker 2: this year, and all all I want to do when
Speaker 2: I finish just go play more, you know. And I
Speaker 2: think about like we just left a time where we
Speaker 2: were getting like one or two new courses a year,
Speaker 2: and now we have like this amazing, Like we're young
Speaker 2: architects who hadn't gotten opportunities are getting real opportunities to
Speaker 2: build great golf courses. We're seeing clubs that are renovating,
Speaker 2: like full scale renovations and have new products like Madina
Speaker 2: three or what's what's going to eventually happen at Hazel Team.
Speaker 2: You know you have a place like uh Interlock in
Speaker 2: which you know reopened and and has some new stuff,
Speaker 2: but mostly is just a restoration. Like we're in this
Speaker 2: like era like where there's so much new stuff coming
Speaker 2: rolling out that it's impossible to keep up. I just
Speaker 2: think that like there are a lot of like super talent,
Speaker 2: Like I don't know if we've ever had more talented
Speaker 2: and more educated golf architects.
Speaker 1: No, it's certainly not more educated, like I think. I
Speaker 1: think that's that's for sure.
Speaker 2: Part part of like I think like when these guys
Speaker 2: get busy, they lose the ability to go see golf courses.
Speaker 2: I would venture to say that because of like the
Speaker 2: recession and the golf really like if we'll call it
Speaker 2: like a golf course or SESSI from two thousand and
Speaker 2: eight to twenty twenty because of that golf course recession.
Speaker 1: Through the twenty tens, people, Yeah, don't forget.
Speaker 2: That all the people that have been working for people
Speaker 2: forever and not doing their own jobs have had like
Speaker 2: an inordinate amount of time to go see new golf
Speaker 2: courses and to read and study golf architecture. As well
Speaker 2: as the advent of the Internet, between Twitter and Instagram,
Speaker 2: there's never been more discussion, photos and discovery of great
Speaker 2: golf courses. To see that this era of architect like
Speaker 2: is on a different level than we've ever had before.
Speaker 1: They're certainly more professionalized. I think that we do need
Speaker 1: to give credit to how literate Golden Age architects were, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: those people spend a lot of time reading about golf
Speaker 1: course design, and they traveled a good bit as well.
Speaker 1: But the amount that that Cohort read and wrote about
Speaker 1: golf architecture is truly impressive and beyond anything that we
Speaker 1: can accomplish in the modern age because we have so
Speaker 1: many different ways to communicate with each other. So I
Speaker 1: think certainly some credit needs to be given to that.
Speaker 1: But the on the ground experience that architects like Kyle Franz,
Speaker 1: Brian Schneider and Blake Conant have that King Collins has.
Speaker 1: The length of the apprenticeship that these architects served is
Speaker 1: pretty incredible, and.
Speaker 2: So we may never see it again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they have the experience to come right out of
Speaker 1: the gates and build really functional golf courses. Maybe you
Speaker 1: don't like what they've done with them. There are varying
Speaker 1: opinions that could be had about the work that each
Speaker 1: of these architects is doing. Right now we can have
Speaker 1: that debate and discussion. I like a lot of the
Speaker 1: work that I've seen out of the architects I've just mentioned,
Speaker 1: but some of it's pretty provocative in general, though it's
Speaker 1: really well executed. The quality of the work is there
Speaker 1: because these architects know how to build golf courses. They
Speaker 1: have that experience. They've been ready to do this for
Speaker 1: a long time, and so I think that that is
Speaker 1: what is exciting about this period. We're just starting to
Speaker 1: see Kai Golby start to build some original designs. He's
Speaker 1: going to knock it out of the park. That guy
Speaker 1: has been ready to build his own original designs for
Speaker 1: twenty years, and now we get to see what he does.
Speaker 1: So I agree that this is a really exciting time
Speaker 1: in golf course architecture, and that we should step back occasionally, Yes,
Speaker 1: be critical about what's going on. We're not saying that
Speaker 1: we have to be happy about every single golf course
Speaker 1: that comes out. That's certainly not the business that you
Speaker 1: when I are in. I think people know this, but
Speaker 1: it is useful to step back every once in a
Speaker 1: while and say we've come a long way since twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I think like it's crazy to see where
Speaker 2: it's at, like even and I think like this goes
Speaker 2: down to agronomically, where where courses are at versus like
Speaker 2: in what what's really like. I remember in twenty seventeen
Speaker 2: there's still so many just courses that kept things soft
Speaker 2: and spongy, and they're so so fewer, Like it's it's
Speaker 2: amazing how the trends kind of shift, shift opinions and everything.
Speaker 2: All right, let's take a quick break and talk about
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Speaker 2: is a super great way to play golf when the
Speaker 2: weather gets poor. Let's get back to our mail bag
Speaker 2: with Garrett. Here's a question for Keith Roebel. What modern
Speaker 2: courses will climb in notoriety in the coming years, seeing
Speaker 2: most new courses fall off in rankings after the shine
Speaker 2: wears off.
Speaker 1: This is such a hard question to answer because it
Speaker 1: requires that you know where tastes are going to go next.
Speaker 1: What golf courses from the eighties and nineties have climbed
Speaker 1: in notoriety, Well, it would have to be the courses
Speaker 1: that were built by Tom Doak and Corn Crenshaw in
Speaker 1: that period, right, Yeah, those courses have climbed in fame
Speaker 1: and also in regard since they were built relative to
Speaker 1: all the courses that were being built at the same time. Right.
Speaker 1: If you lived in nineteen ninety five nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 1: you were aware that sand Hills was an important course.
Speaker 1: It was being covered by Golf Digest, It was on
Speaker 1: the covers of magazines, and people were excited about it
Speaker 1: and recognized it as something different. But there were a
Speaker 1: whole lot of other golf courses built by other architects
Speaker 1: that came out around that period that people were equally
Speaker 1: excited about to an extent, and it would surprise people
Speaker 1: to go back maybe more Yeah, to go back to
Speaker 1: that period and recognize that sand Hills was not, you know,
Speaker 1: massively more more famous than the other supposed best golf
Speaker 1: courses that came out in that two year period. So
Speaker 1: this is kind of a deflection by me. I really
Speaker 1: don't know. I do think Old Barnwell has gotten a
Speaker 1: lot of hype, and so maybe there's not a lot
Speaker 1: more notoriety that it can gain. But I do think
Speaker 1: that'll be end up being considered an important golf course
Speaker 1: because of because of how original it is and how
Speaker 1: potentially trend setting it could be. I see that that
Speaker 1: golf course is inspiring other architects and pushing other architects
Speaker 1: to take it up to the next level. And so
Speaker 1: I think that that could be the case where where
Speaker 1: we look back on this period and that course stands
Speaker 1: out even more than it does right now. But in general,
Speaker 1: courses that stand the test of time, I think that
Speaker 1: pretty much everything that Bill Kore and Ben Crenshaw build
Speaker 1: is built to stand the test of time. I think
Speaker 1: those courses will look just as good in twenty sixty
Speaker 1: as they do today. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think Tom Doak I'd thrown there too. Yeah, some
Speaker 2: of Gill's work as well. I Uh, when I think
Speaker 2: the answer to this question and you touched on it briefly,
Speaker 2: is like the scope like I have like a lot
Speaker 2: of clubs that will reach out and just ask like
Speaker 2: advice of like what to do you know, who who
Speaker 2: who they should be looking at? And generally, like my
Speaker 2: my general advice is like I would you know in
Speaker 2: your position, Like especially now, it's like Tom's not doing
Speaker 2: consulting work, Corn Crunshaw is not doing consulting work. Gil
Speaker 2: does consulting work for a very select few clubs. Like
Speaker 2: you have to have some sort of in road or
Speaker 2: you have to be like a certain tier and that
Speaker 2: tier is not calling me. Yeah, And I think like
Speaker 2: in general, like what I like to say is like
Speaker 2: you need to figure out you need to interview, you
Speaker 2: know a handful of architects, and you need to bet
Speaker 2: on who you think the next big name will be,
Speaker 2: because like that's how you you gain, like you're going
Speaker 2: to get. You know, there are a lot of competent architects,
Speaker 2: but if you bet on the right on the right
Speaker 2: architect and they become the next Gill Hands or like
Speaker 2: your restoration work is going to be thought of completely
Speaker 2: different twenty years from now, like ant.
Speaker 1: Si Club or something you know Gill Hanson nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: six and now look at where they are, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: and like that.
Speaker 2: The other aspect of that with like especially in the
Speaker 2: club industry is if you if you like you know,
Speaker 2: a great example would be like I know this club
Speaker 2: that could a hire, that almost hired. You know, they
Speaker 2: had an interesting interview process, but you know, I would
Speaker 2: say the the architect they hired is probably you know,
Speaker 2: kind of what they are, and you know, they had
Speaker 2: a few people in the room that are on like
Speaker 2: a very different trajectory, and you just wonder, like how
Speaker 2: they're what what would be done? I don't I don't
Speaker 2: know if it would be drastically different, but like the
Speaker 2: way fifteen years from now that that work has thought
Speaker 2: of is drastic because you you know, you all of
Speaker 2: a sudden have an architect, Like people go to Tom
Speaker 2: Doak's website. Tom Doak has a Wikipedia page, Gil Hants
Speaker 2: has a Wikipedia page. Like you go to their Wikipedia
Speaker 2: page and you see courses that they worked at, like
Speaker 2: and you all of a sudden, so like to me,
Speaker 2: I think and I think this is like new for
Speaker 2: this like the last ten years, fifteen years, Like the
Speaker 2: golf architect has become like kind of like a celebrity
Speaker 2: in the golf space. And the if you're able to
Speaker 2: bet on the right person, you get a working relationship
Speaker 2: at like a huge discount, and then it's like twenty
Speaker 2: years from now your call up, you know whoever. It
Speaker 2: is like, you know, great examples Essex County Club in
Speaker 2: New Jersey, who just had a Gil Han's rest orate
Speaker 2: or renovation done.
Speaker 1: They just this is the this is Essex County Country
Speaker 1: Club in New Jersey, not Essex County Club in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: Just for class. You know. They were one of the
Speaker 2: first gill consulting clients. And you know, this is probably
Speaker 2: a club that I don't know if gil would have
Speaker 2: like if they called them cold, he probably would have
Speaker 2: been uninterested. But this is somebody that he's worked with
Speaker 2: for thirty years, you know, or twenty years, and he
Speaker 2: remembers back to like, oh, that was one of the
Speaker 2: first people that gave me a chance, you know. And
Speaker 2: I think that's the other aspect, especially in case like
Speaker 2: with right so but like with the rising and falling,
Speaker 2: it is so like you can just see it with
Speaker 2: the rankings, if that's what you're talking about specifically, rankings
Speaker 2: is like the architects like the come and go. It's
Speaker 2: like whether you're in like you can look and see
Speaker 2: like the number of FASIO courses or RTJ courses in
Speaker 2: the top you know, especially if you go RTJ in
Speaker 2: the nineties in the top one hundred versus RTJ now
Speaker 2: in the top one order.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like a shot of FASIO courses on there. He's
Speaker 1: still he's still pretty dominant in the in the rankings
Speaker 1: or just in some rankings. But yes, that if you
Speaker 1: look at like a golf die just ranking from the
Speaker 1: seventies versus today, Robert Trent Jones, Dick Wilson, It's it's
Speaker 1: a different world for for those two names.
Speaker 2: And I think like I think, like I read a
Speaker 2: magazine article a couple of years ago, and I'll never
Speaker 2: forget like it said that in the early line, it said,
Speaker 2: like we're visiting this course and it was built by
Speaker 2: so and so, so we knew it would be good,
Speaker 2: which like, so that's what happens when an architect, like
Speaker 2: people just assume it's good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they mistrust their own reaction if they don't
Speaker 1: like it.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think this led to a good next question.
Speaker 2: Jim Hunton, great guy, former now professor former podcast. What
Speaker 2: is a course that you that have that you have
Speaker 2: changed your opinion on after closer study.
Speaker 1: I thought about this for a bit. I would say
Speaker 1: old Barn not old Barnwell. Gosh, I was just talking
Speaker 1: about Old Barnwell. But it's another old course. Now you
Speaker 1: can guess what it is. I don't know, can you.
Speaker 1: First word is old. I guess there are a lot
Speaker 1: of olds out there. I'm talking about old McDonald. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: my opinion did evolve on this course when I played
Speaker 1: it for the second, third, and fourth times. Now, one
Speaker 1: reason my opinion evolved is that this is one of
Speaker 1: those courses, one of the few great courses. I guess
Speaker 1: you could say that I've even played four times. Most
Speaker 1: courses like this abandoned Dune's course or a high level
Speaker 1: private club. I'm not going to play that course four times.
Speaker 1: I just don't have the opportunity to do that. Nor
Speaker 1: is that really the way that our jobs are structured, Andy,
Speaker 1: Like we need to go see new places and keep
Speaker 1: adding to the arsenal. We can't go back and play
Speaker 1: courses a bunch of times. So it's a little bit rare.
Speaker 1: It's just kind of happenstance. That's why we're fraud We
Speaker 1: are fronts. We're just passing judgment on courses that we've
Speaker 1: only seen once, barely seen them at all. Yeah, Old
Speaker 1: McDonald is a course that reveals some nuances and complexities
Speaker 1: over time. The first time I played it, I liked it.
Speaker 1: It's not like my opinion evolved from negative to positive.
Speaker 1: It's more like I played it and I recognized its
Speaker 1: virtues intellectually, but didn't feel them emotionally. I didn't feel
Speaker 1: connected to this course. I was like, what an interesting
Speaker 1: exercise that renaissance golf design to Tom Doak and Jim
Speaker 1: or Bina have done here. Those are some really smart guys,
Speaker 1: you know. That was my initial response. But then just
Speaker 1: randomly I got to play it again a couple of times,
Speaker 1: and each time I played it, I got more joy
Speaker 1: out of it, just seeing what the ball did when
Speaker 1: it hit the turf, all the interesting ways that you
Speaker 1: could play holes out there. Now I really feel positive
Speaker 1: about the course, as opposed to just thinking positively about it.
Speaker 1: So that's one where I think my opinion has has
Speaker 1: shifted over time. Another course I've seen a lot in
Speaker 1: the past couple of years, just because I tend to
Speaker 1: go to this event that we hold is Essex County Club.
Speaker 1: And each time I see that course, I admire it
Speaker 1: more again. Liked it the first time I saw it,
Speaker 1: I think more highly of it every time I see it.
Speaker 2: For me, this is a dope course.
Speaker 1: Tommy Dee getting some love.
Speaker 2: It's the loop. Yeah, I think like I think about
Speaker 2: this course like way too much. I really really love it.
Speaker 2: The first time I played it, though, I didn't really
Speaker 2: like it so at the time it was I think
Speaker 2: it was twenty sixteen that I played it for the
Speaker 2: first time or twenty seventeen, right at the very beginning
Speaker 2: of the Egg. Yeah, it was, and it was brand new.
Speaker 2: It was one of the first golf trips I made.
Speaker 2: I went with somebodies that I played like amateur golf with.
Speaker 2: I was like very much at that point like a
Speaker 2: tournament golfer. And I'm not gonna lie like it kind
Speaker 2: of like tossed me like it kind of like I
Speaker 2: got some bounces. I didn't feel like I played that bad.
Speaker 2: I played the I played Forest Dudents the day before
Speaker 2: and played really well, you know, and I thought, but like,
Speaker 2: I think, this is like actually like why some it's
Speaker 2: polarizing is because people do this, like people call it unfair.
Speaker 2: You know. Since then, I played it probably like three
Speaker 2: more times, and like every time, I like, just love
Speaker 2: it more. I was bummed. I kind of wanted to
Speaker 2: go see it. I was in northern Michigan. I wanted
Speaker 2: to go see it. I just didn't. The trip was
Speaker 2: too short both times around. But like, I love that
Speaker 2: golf course and it presents like if you think you
Speaker 2: just are gonna like land it on them, it's like
Speaker 2: a back pin I'm hitting in the back of the
Speaker 2: green or the middle of the green, like you're just
Speaker 2: you're not gonna like it if you play that way,
Speaker 2: like you have to bounce it in there's It's brilliant
Speaker 2: in the in the reversible sense of it, but it's
Speaker 2: brilliant in just the sense of the way it's maintained.
Speaker 2: It is so fast and so firm, and it puts
Speaker 2: such an emphasis on striking the ball well like with
Speaker 2: the appropriate shape trajectory. If you the more you play it,
Speaker 2: the more you understand the contours that lead into the green.
Speaker 2: And to me, like kind of the shame of the
Speaker 2: loop is that like a very small amount of people
Speaker 2: will ever see it, like multiple times, like my biggest
Speaker 2: like plea. Uh. I have like two things that I
Speaker 2: would like Tom Doak to do in his career. I'd
Speaker 2: like to see a major championship course, from which I
Speaker 2: asked him about and he didn't seem to have much
Speaker 2: interest in it.
Speaker 1: Oh really, now I would. I would have thought that
Speaker 1: he would go for that, just because it's like something
Speaker 1: that people don't expect him to do, and so the
Speaker 1: Dok reaction to that would normally be, well, I'm going
Speaker 1: to do it, so.
Speaker 2: I think I think that was in the last YOK
Speaker 2: with Doke and and then the other thing that I'd
Speaker 2: like is I want like the Loop, but like in
Speaker 2: a place where people play it every day. Yeah, either
Speaker 2: either like a local private club or a just a
Speaker 2: daily fee municipal golf course, because like it's honestly to me,
Speaker 2: I think I'm like irrationally, I think like I'm irrationally
Speaker 2: in love with a few places. Wildhorse would be one
Speaker 2: of them. Cape Rundle you hit on, Yeah, and the
Speaker 2: Loop is one that I am like irrationally in love with.
Speaker 2: Like if you were like, I would say something like
Speaker 2: it's one of my ten favorite public golf courses, and
Speaker 2: I'd be fine, Like I would people would be like,
Speaker 2: you're an idiot, like you have all the bandoned courses,
Speaker 2: like they they list off some rational and I'd say,
Speaker 2: I don't care. I'd rather play there.
Speaker 1: And other people have, by the way, said that to
Speaker 1: us about wild Horse, where we've been saying for a
Speaker 1: few years it's one of the top ten public courses
Speaker 1: bar none in America. And there were people at the
Speaker 1: beginning who are like, you're that's such an exaggeration. You're
Speaker 1: just high in your own supply. And I think we're
Speaker 1: getting to a point now where that's actually a pretty
Speaker 1: popular opinion.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the other thing is like people people
Speaker 2: just want you to regurgitate what they've come to know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, interruption, you're you're you're a wax.
Speaker 2: I think with with the loop though, what you said
Speaker 2: earlier about like, you know, what I find interesting about
Speaker 2: all three of those is it's they're all on like
Speaker 2: a pretty old piece of ground. Yeah, like they all
Speaker 2: like they aren't the most dramatic courses. And I think,
Speaker 2: like here's the thing is like you know, like I
Speaker 2: think like I think it was a hoopie famously, not famously,
Speaker 2: but like you know, this is like a part of
Speaker 2: a chapter of its like existence is a hoopie is
Speaker 2: that Michael Kaiser looked at it and didn't think it
Speaker 2: was dramatic enough for dream golf, like dream dream golf,
Speaker 2: like that resort golf thrives on dramatics that one time
Speaker 2: wow factor. Like the golf that I like the most
Speaker 2: is usually a little bit more understated. I think it's
Speaker 2: why I love Scotland golf, the Scotland Scottish golf that
Speaker 2: I've played so much, Like, there's so much understated, small movement,
Speaker 2: so I think that lends itself more to like repeat,
Speaker 2: daily play and repeat and daily play is generally the
Speaker 2: golf courses that reveal themselves the most over time, in
Speaker 2: the ones that you kind of like could change your
Speaker 2: opinion on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, scale is such a big part of what makes
Speaker 1: a golf course pop immediately versus later, and the loop
Speaker 1: to an extent Old McDonald as well, though there are
Speaker 1: some big movements that Old McDonald that make it a
Speaker 1: dream golf and dream golf golf course, but there's also
Speaker 1: a middle section of that course that is relatively subtle,
Speaker 1: at least in comparison to hitting over a huge dune ridge,
Speaker 1: you know, And so that's you know, it's part of
Speaker 1: what how we process a golf course initially versus how
Speaker 1: we come to know a golf course over time. Old
Speaker 1: McDonald and the Loop are similar in that respect, and
Speaker 1: it's notable that both courses. If you were to choose
Speaker 1: two courses in America that are most inspired by the
Speaker 1: old course, you kind of have to go with those two, right, those.
Speaker 2: Two the lead. Oh yeah, trying to think of some others.
Speaker 2: I know, I'm like forgetting one that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I feel like all these courses are kind
Speaker 1: of brothers or sisters, and they're all built by Tom Doaks,
Speaker 1: so that's one thing, but they all have a kind
Speaker 1: of kinship in terms of the way that people come
Speaker 1: to know them over time. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people are saying what you're saying about the Loop about
Speaker 1: the Lido as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree with that. It's you know, when
Speaker 2: it goes to what Dodo Mulinari said about how few
Speaker 2: golf courses have he talked about how like the old
Speaker 2: courses where he would start to consider angles as a
Speaker 2: tour pro. And I think like the one thing there
Speaker 2: was no caveat in that pod about tour pro. You know,
Speaker 2: like that's a different discussion than your fifteen handicap. But anyways,
Speaker 2: one of the things that he talked about was, you know,
Speaker 2: one of the things was the old course is the
Speaker 2: angle thing there has to be the commiserate with. And
Speaker 2: all three of those courses Lido, the Loop, and and
Speaker 2: Old McDonald have the width. They also all have extraordinarily
Speaker 2: firm conditions. They're all sand and fescue combinations, and then
Speaker 2: they also all have boldly contoured greens, the loops being
Speaker 2: much smaller, but like that's your combination for for angles,
Speaker 2: and I think like the I think the loops are
Speaker 2: are kind of fascinating because they're smaller scale than the
Speaker 2: others and how they how they like that width gets
Speaker 2: almost amplified because of the smaller target space.
Speaker 1: I've got a kind of golf architecture one oh one
Speaker 1: y question for you.
Speaker 2: You want to go there, Let's see if I can
Speaker 2: answer it.
Speaker 1: This was asked in a couple of different ways by
Speaker 1: a couple of different people, including a Adrian Mazarolo in
Speaker 1: Club TF and Will Hardy on Twitter. The way that
Speaker 1: Adrian put it was how would you suggest assessing a
Speaker 1: golf course's architecture while playing a round of golf with friends?
Speaker 1: Essentially a few different people asked us, how do you
Speaker 1: appreciate golf architecture while you're playing a round of golf,
Speaker 1: talking with people, doing all the different things that you
Speaker 1: normally do during golf that are not just gazing contemplatively
Speaker 1: at the architecture. How do you work that into your
Speaker 1: process or how would you suggest that somebody else do so?
Speaker 2: Honestly, it's just watching golf shots. I think like it's
Speaker 2: the best way to start to understand architecture is to
Speaker 2: see where players are. Like the basis for appreciating architecture
Speaker 2: is starting to understand the strategy, you know, or the
Speaker 2: planned strategy of a whole. So watching where shots go
Speaker 2: and the obstacles that they have to then overcome to
Speaker 2: hit a good shot will lead you to understand the
Speaker 2: architecture of the golf hole.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: If you want to get a little bit more nitty gritty,
Speaker 2: then it's observing how the holes sit in the natural space,
Speaker 2: how they kind of sit in their environment. But really,
Speaker 2: like the best way to understand it is just to watch,
Speaker 2: like where the people you're playing with balls, go and
Speaker 2: then look in and understand what they have to then
Speaker 2: deal with whether or or the great spots they get
Speaker 2: in where they are in like a great spot, like
Speaker 2: something that's in my head. Now, this is like the
Speaker 2: worst thing that could possibly happen. I now like I
Speaker 2: know when I hit it into like the perfect spot,
Speaker 2: like a lot of you know, I like think about
Speaker 2: like I don't really play for score very much, but
Speaker 2: I actively like think about trying to push the ball
Speaker 2: into places that I want to get to for the
Speaker 2: architecture to be ruled and what I get to when
Speaker 2: I get to said place. Now, like if I if
Speaker 2: I execute the shot, I now think about like you're
Speaker 2: in such a good spot, Like I almost it puts
Speaker 2: more pressure on the shot, like I get nervous because
Speaker 2: I'm in such a good place or know how good
Speaker 2: a play, Yeah that I need this to work out,
Speaker 2: like I have to catch this in because I have
Speaker 2: skirted the edge and really put myself in a good position.
Speaker 2: It's like actually an obstacle. So anyways, like observing that
Speaker 2: is like the first foremost thing and it's like the
Speaker 2: great way to do it is just watch where people
Speaker 2: get it's like because you'll see the spectrum of people
Speaker 2: in great spots where the architecture of the contours might
Speaker 2: help him and is like, oh my god, like because
Speaker 2: he got there or she got there. They're hitting into
Speaker 2: a bowl versus somebody's on the other side of the
Speaker 2: fairway and they have to come over a bunker and
Speaker 2: the backside of the bunker sloped away and they have
Speaker 2: nowhere to hit it the best they could do, like
Speaker 2: a great shots twenty feet away, you know, Like that's
Speaker 2: the stuff that you could start to think about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, related to that, one thing I would suggest for
Speaker 1: people trying to appreciate golf architecture while they're playing is
Speaker 1: just take some perverse joy in the fucked up things
Speaker 1: that happened to you when you hit bad shots, and
Speaker 1: just think, how did I get here? What about the course?
Speaker 1: And also my own mistakes made me get here? And
Speaker 1: that can get you thinking about the strategy of the
Speaker 1: whole the places that you don't miss, what the design
Speaker 1: is trying to do to you, how it's baiting you
Speaker 1: to do certain things, and low and behold, you did
Speaker 1: that thing and now you're in this situation. Instead of
Speaker 1: just being mad at that which is understandable. We all
Speaker 1: get mad on the golf course from time to time
Speaker 1: when we're screwed over. But if you can take a
Speaker 1: step back and just laugh at it and look at
Speaker 1: where you are and consider how you got there, that
Speaker 1: gets you some way to appreciating the way that the
Speaker 1: strategic design of a whole is working. So I think
Speaker 1: that's one thing and then the other thing. And this
Speaker 1: is just not a suggestion that most people are probably
Speaker 1: going to take up. But I find when I'm playing
Speaker 1: a course and i'm there to consider its architecture, that
Speaker 1: I just put a lot less focus on my play,
Speaker 1: that I devote a lot less bandwidth. I only have
Speaker 1: so much bandwidth to devote. And maybe this is just
Speaker 1: a me thing, but I find that if I borrow
Speaker 1: a little bit of mental capacity to look at the
Speaker 1: architecture and borrow that away from my focus on my
Speaker 1: golf game, that I'll just have a better time. Overall.
Speaker 1: I might shoot a little bit worse, And that's kind
Speaker 1: of okay with me. Maybe that won't be okay with
Speaker 1: most people, but that that's just how I've sort of
Speaker 1: come to think of it, because I know that you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm not going to go out there
Speaker 1: and shoot the course record. That's not going to happen.
Speaker 1: By focusing a little bit less on my play, I
Speaker 1: might shoot a couple of shots worse, but it's probably
Speaker 1: not going to be disastrous, and so that's just the
Speaker 1: compromise I make with myself. Final suggestion would just be
Speaker 1: if you're kind of there at the golf course, if
Speaker 1: you're around and you aren't immediately going somewhere else, see
Speaker 1: if the people at the golf course are happy to
Speaker 1: let you walk it in addition to playing it, Like
Speaker 1: if you really love this golf course, or if you're
Speaker 1: really excited to see this place and want to understand it,
Speaker 1: and you have the time to go out for a
Speaker 1: couple of hours and just walk the course and the
Speaker 1: people at the course are okay with letting you do that,
Speaker 1: that's a wonderful way to absorb more of what's going
Speaker 1: on with the design, and something that I have done
Speaker 1: all the time, not in my capacity as an amateur player,
Speaker 1: but more because I'll go to golf courses and photograph
Speaker 1: them and often walk them in the morning before playing them.
Speaker 1: But one of the greatest things for my golf course
Speaker 1: knowledge that that has happened in the past few years
Speaker 1: since I've been working in this in this line of work,
Speaker 1: is that I've gotten to walk golf courses without playing them,
Speaker 1: and that helps me learn them so much better. So
Speaker 1: those will be my three suggestions for appreciating golf architecture
Speaker 1: just in the flow of your you know, normal time
Speaker 1: spent at a golf course.
Speaker 2: Those are great answers. All right, last break, I'll make
Speaker 2: this one quick. Today's Thursday. This podcast is out. This
Speaker 2: is We've got a really cool video releasing on our
Speaker 2: YouTube page, Friday Golf on YouTube. Just search it on there.
Speaker 2: You're gonna see Tom Doak and I talking about Sedge
Speaker 2: Valley in depth conversation. Brought to you by Johnny Oh.
Speaker 2: This was a really It's a part of our really
Speaker 2: cool new series we're doing with them called Digging into Design.
Speaker 2: We're going to do a few of these videos over
Speaker 2: the course of the winner. Next week I am heading out.
Speaker 2: We're gonna be filming a couple of these. We're doing
Speaker 2: Mid Pines as well as Sweeten's Cove and the Park
Speaker 2: as part of this. We have one other one that
Speaker 2: we will announce later. But these videos are super neat.
Speaker 2: This is Tom Doak talking about Sedge Valley, so check
Speaker 2: it out on our YouTube page. Big thanks to Johnny
Speaker 2: Oh for making this happen. All right, let's get back
Speaker 2: to the end of this Garrett Morrison podcast. All right,
Speaker 2: let's wrap this up here with one last question from
Speaker 2: Morgan Clausen. What a of the most interesting holes that
Speaker 2: you saw for the first time this year? Maybe just
Speaker 2: pick one hole. I'll pick one hole.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. So this is going to require a
Speaker 1: little bit of description of the hole, and I hope
Speaker 1: it comes across well on the podcast. But the first
Speaker 1: hole that really comes to mind for me is the
Speaker 1: second hole at Old Salem Greens, a public inviscible golf
Speaker 1: course COFF. As you can tell, this course is in
Speaker 1: my head right now. I'm sure there are courses that
Speaker 1: I've seen, Yeah, I saw in a February or March
Speaker 1: or or whatever that have some holes that would be
Speaker 1: fun to talk about as well, But Old Salem Grains
Speaker 1: has been the one that I've kind of been obsessing
Speaker 1: about lately. And there are so many cool holes on
Speaker 1: this nine hole golf courses nine holes, and each one
Speaker 1: is memorable kind of in its own way. The second
Speaker 1: hole is a pretty sharply downhill blind two hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty yard par three. There's a big ridge that the
Speaker 1: hole kind of tips over like a roller coaster and
Speaker 1: then goes down severely to the green, so you can't
Speaker 1: see the green from the tee, and it's a par
Speaker 1: three where you don't see the green. You don't see
Speaker 1: he might be able to see a piece of the
Speaker 1: pin maybe, I think you can kind of vaguely in
Speaker 1: the distance. It's as long as it is, and it's
Speaker 1: just incredible. It goes over amazing land. But this is
Speaker 1: just the type of hole that nobody would build anymore
Speaker 1: because everybody would be so mad about it. And I
Speaker 1: think people are probably mad about it now when they
Speaker 1: play it, but they're just like, oh, it's an old
Speaker 1: course or whatever. It adds some weird stuff on it.
Speaker 1: But this whole is so fun because you just you know,
Speaker 1: for me, I'm taking out a since it's so downhill,
Speaker 1: it's going to be a fairway wood and I'm just
Speaker 1: like ripping it downhill and hoping that it kind of
Speaker 1: trundles onto the green and it's a fun shot. It's
Speaker 1: a really interesting use of that piece of land. I
Speaker 1: think if any other modern architect who maybe would see
Speaker 1: this piece of land wouldn't think of using it in
Speaker 1: this way, and so it sticks out immediately in the
Speaker 1: memory and just just a lot of fun and kind
Speaker 1: of a unique hole in the world of golf.
Speaker 2: That's a that's a good one. I have to go
Speaker 2: to Northern Ireland for mine. Yeah, of course, I mean
Speaker 2: I'd seen this on TV, but I just think in
Speaker 2: person it's unbelievable. The fifteenth hole at uh Port Rush,
Speaker 2: it's called Scaries. It's just an epic hole.
Speaker 1: I love.
Speaker 2: I kind of I love like up and over holes
Speaker 2: where you you kind of tea from a low and
Speaker 2: then you go up on a ridge and then it
Speaker 2: kind of like you so you're teeing up from low
Speaker 2: and you don't really know what's above, and then once
Speaker 2: you crest like a certain point, you're just like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's like just so epic. I mean, Port Rush is
Speaker 2: from like one to eighteen, I think, like one of
Speaker 2: the best golf courses in the world I've played, I
Speaker 2: don't you know, Frankly, like I think it's like actually,
Speaker 2: like you know, it's like whatever top twenty golf course
Speaker 2: in the world. I think it's probably underrated. It is astounding,
Speaker 2: astounding golf course. Like I could pick like four holes
Speaker 2: from port Rush that I just were was like completely
Speaker 2: you know, you know, I like the fourth hole port
Speaker 2: Rush is unbelievable, the fifth hole port Rush is unbelievable.
Speaker 2: The fifteenth when you get up to the top of
Speaker 2: the hill and you get that approach shot to that
Speaker 2: great green side, it's just just epic place. I think
Speaker 2: about it a lot. It's like, yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Love an up and over hole too. The one I
Speaker 1: actually cited was kind of an up and overhole though
Speaker 1: the mostly downhill. But the up and over is a
Speaker 1: characteristic that you don't see as much in modern golf architecture.
Speaker 1: It's probably coming back a little bit, but putting a
Speaker 1: tee on a low and the start of the fair
Speaker 1: way on a kind of sharply elevated ridge was a
Speaker 1: way that architects would often manage difficult pieces of land. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because what else, what other kind of hole can you
Speaker 1: put on that piece of land? Well, okay, seventies, eighties, nineties,
Speaker 1: maybe you just blow up that ridge and cut a
Speaker 1: little goalie through it. Use your machinery to make the
Speaker 1: hole make more sense to a player standing on the
Speaker 1: tee for the first time. But often what they would
Speaker 1: do when they couldn't move that amount of land was
Speaker 1: just put the tea down below, put the fairway up above,
Speaker 1: and just be glad that the approach shot is not
Speaker 1: going to be blind right, and those I think those shots,
Speaker 1: those kinds of drives have a lot of charm. They
Speaker 1: look cool to me. And once you get to know
Speaker 1: the course, at least you know your aiming point. You
Speaker 1: know when you're on the fairway and when you're not.
Speaker 2: It's only blind once. As they say, Garrett, thank you
Speaker 2: for joining me on this podcast. Today's episode was produced
Speaker 2: and edited by PJ Clark. Thank you for PJ. PJ
Speaker 2: might have skipped the Mets game. I thought that was
Speaker 2: a questionable decision.
Speaker 1: We were an abusive employer.
Speaker 2: I don't know why you felt that.
Speaker 1: Roy.
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