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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from House stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we are talking about

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Speaker 1: the Bechdel Tests, which a number of listeners have written

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Speaker 1: in suggesting that we cover, and recently, the director of

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Speaker 1: Bridesmaids and also The Heat, which is the summer comedy

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Speaker 1: with Sandra Bullock and Lis McCarthy told British g Q

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Speaker 1: that he's trying to make all of his movies from

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Speaker 1: here on out pass the Bechdel test. Yeah, which is

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Speaker 1: pretty awesome. It's it's a great thing to strive for.

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Speaker 1: And for those of you who don't know what the

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Speaker 1: Bechdel test is and why it's such a cool thing

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Speaker 1: to strive for, let's let's define that, shall we. Sure

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Speaker 1: there's three steps. Okay, Number one, the movie has to

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Speaker 1: have at least two named in and in it too

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Speaker 1: who talked to each other three about something besides a man.

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Speaker 1: And that might seem like a pretty simple feat, but

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Speaker 1: you would be surprised how challenging it actually is to

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Speaker 1: find movies that pass the Bechdel test, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just to think about I mean this this rule, this

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Speaker 1: test is so great to even consider, because once you

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Speaker 1: start thinking about it, you realize, oh my god, it's

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Speaker 1: so few movies in in popular culture today, even even

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Speaker 1: sort of past this test. Yeah. BuzzFeed rounded up some

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Speaker 1: movies that have already failed the test, speaking of Melissa McCarthy.

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Speaker 1: For instance, Identity Thief, which he started with Jason Bateman

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Speaker 1: failed twenty one and over Oblivion, mud Jack the Giant Slayer. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Then we've got movies like Hangover three, which who's surprised,

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Speaker 1: no one? Uh, now you see me after Earth, the Internship,

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Speaker 1: the Purge and this is the End and for this

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Speaker 1: is the end. I wasn't surprised when I saw that

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Speaker 1: on the list because I had seen the preview a

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Speaker 1: while ago, and it's this ensemble movie, but it's an

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Speaker 1: ensemble mostly of dudes. You have a girl cameos every

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Speaker 1: now and then, like Mindy Kaling pops in for a second.

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Speaker 1: But it's all narrowed down to a group of guys,

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Speaker 1: you know, And there's nothing wrong with a group of guys. No,

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Speaker 1: there's certainly not anything wrong with a group of guys.

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Speaker 1: I just think that, like a lot of people have

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Speaker 1: pointed out writing about this test, it does point out

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Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, we don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of actual representation of ladies. Yeah, well, so what other

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Speaker 1: movies have not done so well on this test? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. How about a classic like Star Wars.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Star Wars fans, they do not pass the

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Speaker 1: Bechdel test. Yeah, we've also got the Social Network, Avatar

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Speaker 1: and Lord of the Rings. But it's not all bad news.

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Speaker 1: Of course, there are some classic except pass the Bechdel tests,

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Speaker 1: including When Harry Met Sally, Titanic, Clueless, Bridesmaids, Black Swan, Coralines.

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Speaker 1: JU know, there's actually a website devoted to Bechdel tests

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Speaker 1: itemizing what movies to do and don't I believe it

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Speaker 1: is Beckdal test dot com. Or you can just google

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Speaker 1: Bechdel Test and it'll come right up. But Caroline, where

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Speaker 1: did the Bechdel test come from? Who's what? What is

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Speaker 1: this beck deal? That reminds me of bechemeal Sauce Delicien delicious.

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Speaker 1: Alison Bechdel wrote about or or portrayed this rule a

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Speaker 1: conversation about this rule in her comic strip Dikes to

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Speaker 1: Watch out For. In the strip was called the rule,

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Speaker 1: and she does specify in her strip that she stole

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Speaker 1: this idea from her friend Liz Wallace, with whom she

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Speaker 1: was studying karate at the time. So Kristen what happened

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Speaker 1: in the in the strip. So basically, the strip is

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Speaker 1: a scene where two characters go to the movies, but

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Speaker 1: they don't actually end up seeing anything because none of

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Speaker 1: the offerings pass the rule as it's referred to, which

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Speaker 1: we now would call the Bechtel tests. One of the

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Speaker 1: character comments that the last movie she was able to

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Speaker 1: go see because of the rule, by the way, it

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Speaker 1: was Alien, So Alien passes the Bechtel test. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and in this one comic in the rule she

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Speaker 1: itemizes those three criteria and because it will actually it's

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Speaker 1: a little erroneous. Sometimes it's known as the Mo movie

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Speaker 1: measure because some thought that it was the Dikes to

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Speaker 1: watch out for character Mo who brings up the rule,

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Speaker 1: but apparently it was a different character from a previous strip.

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Speaker 1: But this first came up in and it's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of cool that we're still talking about it today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it kind of cool, but also unfore, because the fact

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about it means that it's good that

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Speaker 1: we're thinking about it, but it's really unfortunate that we

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Speaker 1: don't have more movies and TV shows we we can

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Speaker 1: apply versions of this role to TV shows today. So

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Speaker 1: who is Alison Bechdale Because the Beckdale behind the Bechdel

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Speaker 1: test was also is also a pretty fantastical lady as well. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So in addition to doing her comic strip, which he

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Speaker 1: did for twenty five years, she authored two thousand six

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Speaker 1: is fun Home and TeVeS Are You My Mother? Both

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Speaker 1: of those are graphic memoirs. Would you call him? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: kind of graphic graphic novel slash memoirs talking about her

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Speaker 1: relationship with her father and Fun Home and then her

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Speaker 1: relationship with obviously her mother and Are You My Mother?

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Speaker 1: And Bechdel not only has made a name for herself

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Speaker 1: since you know, Fun Home, for instance, was a best

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Speaker 1: seller and obviously if she kep Digs to watch out

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Speaker 1: for for twenty five years, I mean, that's such a

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Speaker 1: huge body of work. But she's also notable in the

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Speaker 1: LGBT community because that strip was one of the first

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Speaker 1: to portray lesbian relationships and actually in a larger to

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Speaker 1: a broader audience than say things you might find in zines. Well,

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Speaker 1: so we've explained the rule. Um, but it's really not

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Speaker 1: about finding movies that are really feminist in nature, or

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Speaker 1: about feminism, or even really pro women, or even portraying

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Speaker 1: women in a positive light necessarily. This rule is so

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Speaker 1: much more just about the representation of women on screen, discussing,

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Speaker 1: like we said, discussing something outside of men, whether that

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Speaker 1: is a boyfriend or husband or a son, brother, father. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's more of an evaluation of whether or not women

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Speaker 1: on screen are fully realized characters or just cliches. Um

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Speaker 1: and so. TV tropes dot Org has a really comprehensive

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Speaker 1: page on the Bechdel test um and points out how

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Speaker 1: it's entirely possible for a film to pass the Bechdel

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Speaker 1: test without having overt feminist messages, or it could even

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Speaker 1: be incredibly misogynistic and yet still past the Bechdel test.

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Speaker 1: So you know what's the issue, I mean, why why

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Speaker 1: should we pay attention to If it's not looking for, say,

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Speaker 1: messages about gender equity or feminism, et cetera, then why

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Speaker 1: should we be interested in just seeing whether or not

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Speaker 1: women with names can talk to each other, not about men. Well,

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Speaker 1: the issue comes up when this becomes a pattern because

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Speaker 1: of the fact that we even still have to talk

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Speaker 1: about the Bechdel test. It just goes to show that

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Speaker 1: there are so many female characters whose lives dialogues, um thoughts,

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Speaker 1: their whole characters that are constructed in these films revolve

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Speaker 1: around men, whereas there are so few male characters whose

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Speaker 1: characters whose storylines do the same in reverse. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: was watching Glen Garry Glenn Ross old movie if anyone

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Speaker 1: out there who's seen it this weekend, and in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the movie, it struck me that there hadn't

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Speaker 1: been a single woman on camera, much less named. There

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Speaker 1: were some women on telephone calls, but maybe they were

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Speaker 1: talking to other women on the other end of the line.

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Speaker 1: It could have been, but I was like, wait, there's

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Speaker 1: something missing. Oh oh okay, this is Glen Gary glenderass

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Speaker 1: definitely does not pass the Bechdel test. I'll say that,

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Speaker 1: huh um. But what about okay, so you said, for instance, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like with that example of well, well, maybe these unnamed

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Speaker 1: women on the phone are talking to somebody else. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Anita Sarcasian from Feminist Frequency does raise the issue of

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Speaker 1: the quality and duration of the conversation that women have,

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Speaker 1: because maybe you have two women talking to each other

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Speaker 1: on screen, but for a just a few seconds. Does

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Speaker 1: that mean it should get the stamp of approval? Right? Right? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she had a big list. I think it was from

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Speaker 1: the Oscars right that she was talking about, and some

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Speaker 1: of the movies she sided. Pretty much everything failed except

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Speaker 1: for two. But the conversations between women were so fleeting,

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Speaker 1: they were so almost inconsequential to the movie that she

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Speaker 1: actually proposes that they're sort of a to B rule,

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Speaker 1: So to A is that the women have to talk

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Speaker 1: to each other, you know, and then she proposes that

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Speaker 1: it should be longer than sixty seconds sixty seconds or

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Speaker 1: longer to actually have a significant conversation. And one of

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Speaker 1: the movies that she highlights in terms of looking at

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Speaker 1: the qualities of conversations that these women are having was

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Speaker 1: The Help, which obviously it passes the Bechdel test with

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Speaker 1: flying colors, um, but it brought up an other iteration

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Speaker 1: of the Bechdel tests that could also be very handy,

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Speaker 1: and that's a question of what about characters of color,

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Speaker 1: because there you could call it the race Bechdel tests,

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Speaker 1: which is looking at do characters of color both named

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Speaker 1: talk about to each other? Anything other than the white

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Speaker 1: leading characters, right, Are they there for another reason than

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Speaker 1: just to support the white leads. Yeah? And and there's

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Speaker 1: a blog post over at the Angry black Woman dot

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Speaker 1: com talking about this. This was from two thousand nine,

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Speaker 1: and she was saying how the hardest part is just

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Speaker 1: getting over the first hurdle of having more than one

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Speaker 1: person of color on screen to begin with, much less

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Speaker 1: than having them without any other people around, talking solely

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Speaker 1: to each other. Yeah, and again, this is the justice

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Speaker 1: with looking at the representation of women, looking at the

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Speaker 1: representation of women of color or even people of color

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Speaker 1: in general and movies. It's about quality, not just a

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Speaker 1: fleeting conversation, not just a background character or someone who's

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Speaker 1: there purely to support the white lead, but looking at

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Speaker 1: the quality and almost like the three dimensionalness of the characters. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And a couple of examples that that she offered from

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Speaker 1: TV that would pass the race Beck del tests would

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Speaker 1: be Battlestar Galactica and True Blood. But True Blood was

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Speaker 1: kind of kind of squeaked by a little bit. It

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Speaker 1: still wasn't. You don't still don't see really high quality

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Speaker 1: relationships a lot of times on you know, in mainstream

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Speaker 1: film between characters of color. So in a way, I

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Speaker 1: think that the race beck Del test is almost something

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Speaker 1: to keep more of an eye out for even than

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Speaker 1: the one with its original intent of looking at women. Um,

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Speaker 1: but let's switch to the small screen. What about on

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Speaker 1: Yield TV Caroline. Indeed, there's much talk over at Bitch

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Speaker 1: magazine about how television shows can pass this test and

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Speaker 1: whether the test should stay the same because with a movie,

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Speaker 1: you're looking at what like an hour and a half

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Speaker 1: two hours, and a movie would pass the test with

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Speaker 1: just a single conversation, But what do you do when

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Speaker 1: you're looking at television shows which are stretched out over

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Speaker 1: an entire season. Well, they suggest that in order to

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Speaker 1: pass the Bechdel tests for TV, every single episode must

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Speaker 1: feature a conversation between two named female characters not about men,

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Speaker 1: which when I first read that that seemed like a

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Speaker 1: pretty high mark to meet, but they argue that it's

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Speaker 1: not actually unreasonable, and and maybe rather than thinking of

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Speaker 1: it as a pass failed test, that we could plot

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Speaker 1: TV shows out on more of a Bechdel spectrum, right,

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Speaker 1: And they used the examples of for TV shows that passed.

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Speaker 1: They used the L word and the United States of

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Speaker 1: Tara and like I was telling Kristen before we started recording,

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Speaker 1: if the L word didn't pass, there would probably be

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Speaker 1: issues that we would have to talk about. Yes, this

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Speaker 1: is true. Um. And some other shows that passed pretty

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Speaker 1: well for the TV Bechdel Spectrum included Girls, Gilmore Girls,

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Speaker 1: and Golden Girls. If it has girls in the name,

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Speaker 1: you might we might be good. Orange Is a New Black,

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Speaker 1: a new favorite of ours, Madman, Weeds and Parks and Recreation. Surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: though one was called that was called out for not

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Speaker 1: doing such a great job on the Bechdel Spectrum, Dirty Rock. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Liz has conversations with Jenna quite a bit,

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Speaker 1: but I mean, if you think about it, her main

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Speaker 1: like counterpart is Jack. So she's always talking to Jack.

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Speaker 1: She's always dealing with Tracy, and always talking to Pete

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Speaker 1: as he's having some kind of nervous breakdown. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: probably even when she is talking to Jenna, half the

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Speaker 1: time she's talking about one of those people, or Jenna's

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Speaker 1: talking about her amazing boyfriend on the show. Um. Another

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Speaker 1: show that does not do a great job with this either,

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Speaker 1: Sex in the City blows my mind. I know, I

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Speaker 1: had to really think about it and talking about this

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Speaker 1: test really makes you think about it. Well, because half

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Speaker 1: the time, you know, when when all of the girls

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Speaker 1: get together a brunch, what do they talk about? They

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Speaker 1: talk about their respective men um And there's even I

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Speaker 1: remember that I forget which episode this is in, but

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Speaker 1: I totally remember this bit where Cynthia Nixon, who plays Miranda, says,

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Speaker 1: and this is during a brunch scene. She says, how

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Speaker 1: does it happen that four such smart women have nothing

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Speaker 1: to talk about but boyfriends? It's like seventh grade with

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Speaker 1: bank accounts? What about us? I know, I love it.

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Speaker 1: I remember that episode two because they were all like

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Speaker 1: freaking out at the table over something and she was

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Speaker 1: just thick of it, Miranda, I know, I thought it

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Speaker 1: was great. Are we both Miranda's why? Yes? I'd like

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Speaker 1: to think we would smartly point things out like that,

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Speaker 1: that's true and be partners at law firms. Well. Another

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Speaker 1: show that sometimes passes sometimes does not do so hot

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Speaker 1: is Gray's Anatomy, which I will point out that I

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Speaker 1: quit several years ago. Gray's Anatomie was getting a wee

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Speaker 1: bit too ridiculous for me. Mainly I just really didn't

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Speaker 1: like the main character. But uh, Meredith, who is the

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Speaker 1: main character and McDreamy like, that's what the show revolves around.

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Speaker 1: So that's what even smart lady character Christina, who I

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Speaker 1: wish the show had been about, that's all she talks

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Speaker 1: about too. Yeah, So even when you have a lot

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Speaker 1: of times these smart, accomplished women leads, it tends to

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Speaker 1: circle back to those male relationships. And again, the point

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Speaker 1: of the test isn't to say we should strip out

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Speaker 1: all conversations with men, but you know, thinking about it

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Speaker 1: kind of in the same way that we were talking

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Speaker 1: about the Race Bechdel test, are these characters really ultimately

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Speaker 1: just serving the purpose of elevating the leads, who are

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Speaker 1: typically male, typically white, Right? And I mean keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: we are not arguing that today we should just stop

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Speaker 1: making movies about men at starring men, you know, with

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Speaker 1: women in supporting roles. I mean, we're not saying that.

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Speaker 1: What we're saying is, I think there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of good storylines out there featuring women, focusing on women,

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Speaker 1: focusing on women beyond just their romantic lives or their

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Speaker 1: lives that involve men. Those stories need to be told too.

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Speaker 1: But I think there is an issue of like, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: what movies are we used to, well, I'm I'm a

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Speaker 1: guy who may not be interested in a movie about women.

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Speaker 1: It's the same kind of thing we talked about in

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Speaker 1: our Gendered Book Covers episode about like, oh, I'm a dude,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to read some lady book, you know,

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Speaker 1: And it's like, well, okay, let's let's think outside of

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Speaker 1: what we're normally exposed to. Yeah, and the beg Del

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Speaker 1: test is has been especially because it's come back into

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Speaker 1: these larger conversations in the late two thousands. Um, And

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Speaker 1: I think because we have a good way of talking

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Speaker 1: about it by using this test, that it is getting

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Speaker 1: better slowly but surely now that we have a way

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Speaker 1: to or have had away for to sort of evaluate

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Speaker 1: things pretty simply. It's a it's an easy criteria sort

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Speaker 1: of criteria to remember. Um that that maybe, in the

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Speaker 1: same way that those conversations about Gendered book covers get

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Speaker 1: people talking, get people thinking and paying attention to the

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Speaker 1: media that are around us, in the kinds of gender

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Speaker 1: representations that are out there. Yeah, this makes me actually

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Speaker 1: want to go back and watch Nine to five, which

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Speaker 1: is one of my all time favorite movies. And because

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, that would easily pass, and I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: do they spend the whole movie just talking about the

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Speaker 1: evil boss? There could be surely they have a conversation

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Speaker 1: and there's somewhere about work or the typewriters or something.

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Speaker 1: But again, if that doesn't pass the back del test

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Speaker 1: a perfect example of how it's not meant to evaluate

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Speaker 1: feminism per se. It's more just looking solely at how

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Speaker 1: well developed the women on screen are. So something to

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Speaker 1: keep in mind. We thought, you know, since this is

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Speaker 1: coming out towards the end of the summer, there's always

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Speaker 1: lots of conversation about summer movies and blockbusters and such, so, uh,

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Speaker 1: I'll be curious to know from listeners. Um, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: have you seen summer movies that that pass or totally fail,

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Speaker 1: like Glen Garry, Glenn Ross did not a single woman? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot of al Pacino yelling. Um yeah, let us

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Speaker 1: know what what your favorite movies are and whether or

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Speaker 1: not they would pass the test. Um. Oh, but before

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Speaker 1: we sign off, though, what about the reverse spectel test, Caroline?

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Speaker 1: You could easily have someone say, well, I mean, what

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Speaker 1: about well developed male characters, which are also important? So

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Speaker 1: why can't we have you know, a reverse test to

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Speaker 1: see if men are talking to each other about something

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Speaker 1: other than women, because that would just be called movies. Ah, well,

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Speaker 1: with that, send us your letters mom Stuff at Discovery

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Speaker 1: dot com. I hope for all the people who have

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Speaker 1: requested Bechdel tests that you enjoyed this episode and send

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Speaker 1: us your favorite movies TV shows that pass the Bechdel

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Speaker 1: test with flying colors um because it's interesting to see

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Speaker 1: how you know, it doesn't mean that they are they

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Speaker 1: all have to be chick flix. I mean, just listening

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Speaker 1: to the list we rattled off at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the podcast, it's a wide range of films that the pass.

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Speaker 1: So send us your suggestions. Moms have a Discovery dot

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Speaker 1: com you can tweet them at mom Stuff podcast or

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Speaker 1: leave us a note over on Facebook. And now back

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Speaker 1: to our letters. So I've got a couple of letters

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Speaker 1: to your in response to our episode about the BRACO

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Speaker 1: one in two genes known usually as the breast cancer gene.

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Speaker 1: So this is from Sarah and she writes, I am

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Speaker 1: a physician, an ovarian cancer survivor, and I have experienced

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Speaker 1: the that BRAC I wanted to test debate firsthand. I

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Speaker 1: was diagnosed with ovarian cancer at thirty one, in the

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Speaker 1: middle of an infertility workup. Despite not having any symptoms

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Speaker 1: of ovarian cancer, I had multiple tumors and was given

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Speaker 1: at chance of surviving five years. Six years later, I'm

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Speaker 1: doing great and still cancer free. After my diagnosis, I

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Speaker 1: was tested for Brock one and Brock to mutations. As

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Speaker 1: a doctor, I actually didn't go to formal genetic counseling,

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Speaker 1: but instead watched the DVD that was provided by the

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Speaker 1: laboratory company. I knew I wanted testing even before seeing

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Speaker 1: the DVD or even discussing it with my doctor. I'm

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Speaker 1: a pediatrician, so genetics was part of my training as

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00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 1: a position for me to test or not to test.

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Speaker 1: Boiled down to two basic principles, One what would I

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Speaker 1: do with the information? And two did I want to know?

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Speaker 1: And my answers were absolutely yes to both. I already

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Speaker 1: had cancer, so it wasn't like things were going to

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Speaker 1: get any worse. My doctor said that brock up plus

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Speaker 1: ovarian cancer actually responds better to chemotherapy and would be

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Speaker 1: a positive thing in terms of my ovarian cancer treatment.

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Speaker 1: I knew from experiencing chemo, how I never wanted to

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Speaker 1: do that again. Ever, I had to make up my

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Speaker 1: mind prior to testing if I was positive. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to propolacticly stectony and was going to pick out some

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Speaker 1: nice breaths, just a few cups as is bigger. I

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Speaker 1: was actually disappointed and being negative both for the long

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Speaker 1: term survival issues and my new bust one. It was

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Speaker 1: good news for my sister and mother and cousins. Since

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Speaker 1: I was negative, my family didn't need to be tested.

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Speaker 1: I think ovarian cancer wouldn't be a great stuff. I've

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Speaker 1: never told you podcast subject. There's so many things you

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Speaker 1: could talk about, So thanks Sarah for sharing your experience

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Speaker 1: and best wishes for continued good health for you and

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Speaker 1: I have one here from Rachel. She says, Hi, wello Rachel.

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Speaker 1: I'm nineteen years old, and while I have not been

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Speaker 1: personally tested for the Broca mutations, both my parents have

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Speaker 1: both of them tested positive for Brocca one and two,

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Speaker 1: so it's safe to say I have both mutations as well.

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Speaker 1: I like to joke that all my blood relatives have

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Speaker 1: had cancer of some sort or another, including but not

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Speaker 1: limited to, my mother, both grandmothers, my maternal grandfather, and

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Speaker 1: several cousins. My mother died of breast cancer five years ago.

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Speaker 1: I've been seriously considering a preventive mistake me since that time.

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Speaker 1: My father and stepmother are fully supportive of this decision,

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Speaker 1: and I'm waiting until I'm in my mid thirties for

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Speaker 1: various reasons. Knowing I have such a high risk for

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Speaker 1: cancer at such a young age has really affected the

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Speaker 1: way I think about the future. Sadly, I view cancer

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Speaker 1: as an inevitability rather than a possibility. Thus, I am

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Speaker 1: willing to submit to a very invasive surgery if I

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Speaker 1: can keep that from happening. I thought you might like

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Speaker 1: some perspective from a younger listener with the Brock commutations,

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Speaker 1: because not many people my age know whether they have

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Speaker 1: this genetic mutation or not, as the test is very expensive.

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Speaker 1: So thank you for sharing that story, Rachel. We appreciate it,

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Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who's written in. Mom Stuff at

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Speaker 1: Discovery dot com is where you can send your letter.

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Speaker 1: So you can follow us on Twitter at mom Stub

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Speaker 1: podcast and find us on Facebook as well, and follow

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00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 1: us on Tumbler stuff Mom Never Told You dot tumbler

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Speaker 1: dot com, and if you haven't checked out one of

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Speaker 1: our sixty plus videos on YouTube. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: you're doing, Head over to YouTube dot com, slush stuff

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