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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give.

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Speaker 3: You, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 4: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 5: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 5: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 4: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, welcome to Counterpoints. I wouldn't shout at like

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Speaker 3: soccer does.

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Speaker 6: When I tried my best, sob still fired up.

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Speaker 7: Yes, super fired up. We actually do have an awesome

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Speaker 7: show for you guys today. We're going to start by

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Speaker 7: breaking down everything going on with the AI hearing from yesterday.

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Speaker 7: There's so much to get into. We're going to talk

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Speaker 7: about a big no no.

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Speaker 6: Then we got elections from Turkey to Kentucky and everywhere

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Speaker 6: in between. Some l's for Rond DeSantis, some wins and

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Speaker 6: losses for Bernie Sanders, a couple of wins from Mitch McConnell.

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Speaker 6: We'll get into the we'll get it of the whole

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Speaker 6: thing there. We got an update on debt ceiling talks.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, there was, there was. There were elections last night

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Speaker 7: that were debt ceiling talks. Yesterday, We've got some crazy

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Speaker 7: new allegations to talk about when it comes to Rudy Giuliani.

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk did an interview.

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Speaker 7: On CNBC and is being subpoenaed by the Virgin Islands

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Speaker 7: and the Epstein JP Morgan case. Ryan, you had a

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Speaker 7: scoop this week that you're going to break down.

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Speaker 3: For us on Turkey.

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Speaker 4: Oh, yes, it's gonna be good. It's a wild one.

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Speaker 7: And then I'll be breaking down the Durham Report. And

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Speaker 7: then the one and only Ken Clipton.

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Speaker 3: Seen us here.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 6: Ken has a new scoop on the kind of disinformation

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Speaker 6: industrial complex and a new agency that he uncovered. He's

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Speaker 6: finding like these are like mushrooms in a cowfield.

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Speaker 4: He just keeps finding new ones.

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Speaker 7: The easter egg hunt. Like Ken, just how many agencies

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Speaker 7: can he find in the Pentagon. Well, we'll be talking

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Speaker 7: to Ken about that for sure, and just a bit,

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Speaker 7: but let's talk about yesterday is Congressional hearing on AI

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Speaker 7: Generative AI. We should say we can put the first

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Speaker 7: element the tear sheet up.

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Speaker 3: You can see.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, So this was Sam Moultman's first testimony before Congress.

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Speaker 7: He is obviously the head of open Ai, which has

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Speaker 7: chat GPT, so it's a big deal that he came

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Speaker 7: and was grilled by the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Privacy

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Speaker 7: and Technology.

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Speaker 3: He had all kinds of.

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Speaker 7: What I would probably describe as like juicy quotes, things

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Speaker 7: that you know. This is why he's in front of

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Speaker 7: the Senate testifying. So let's start with the first of those.

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Speaker 7: We'll go with a one here.

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Speaker 1: Look, we have tried to be very clear about the

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Speaker 1: magnitude of the risks here. I think jobs and employment

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Speaker 1: and what we're all going to do with our time

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Speaker 1: really matters. I agree that when we get to very

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Speaker 1: powerful systems, the landscape will change. I think I'm just

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Speaker 1: more optimistic that we are incredibly creative and we find

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Speaker 1: new things to do with better tools, and that will

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Speaker 1: keep happening. My worst fears are that we cause significant

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Speaker 1: we the field, the technology, the industry, caused significant harm

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Speaker 1: to the world. I think that could happen in a

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Speaker 1: lot of different ways. It's why we started the company.

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Speaker 1: It's a big part of why I'm here today and

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Speaker 1: why we've been here in the past and I've been

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Speaker 1: able to spend some time with you. I think if

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Speaker 1: this technology goes wrong, it can go quite wrong, and

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Speaker 1: we want to be vocal about that. We want to

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Speaker 1: work with the government to prevent that from happening, but

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Speaker 1: we try to be very clear eyed about what the

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Speaker 1: downside case is and the work that we have to

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Speaker 1: do to mitigate that.

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Speaker 3: My worst fear is just that we destroy the world.

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Speaker 6: And this is someone who describes himself as an optimist

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Speaker 6: when it comes to this stuff. So I'm curious just

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Speaker 6: to frame and set the conversation. Where do you put

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Speaker 6: yourself on the alarmist spectrum when it comes to AI.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question. I'm very alarmist about AI. What

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Speaker 3: about you?

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Speaker 6: I mean, I'm alarmist about everything. So it's like, what

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Speaker 6: do you got I'll be alarmed about it?

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Speaker 7: Well, no, but I think for good reason, because we

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Speaker 7: live in an era where things change really really quickly,

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Speaker 7: and it's like almost exponential technological advancements, and so yeah,

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Speaker 7: we have to be sort of alarmist about all kinds

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Speaker 7: of things. But that is a good question because yes,

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Speaker 7: in full disclosure, I think both of us are like

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Speaker 7: extremely concerned about rapid changes in AI. That doesn't mean

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Speaker 7: that it can't be harnessed for good, but it does

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Speaker 7: mean that our.

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Speaker 3: Government needs to catch up.

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Speaker 7: And that's something we've heard from a lot of people

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Speaker 7: in the tech industry.

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Speaker 3: It's just Ton Harris, et cetera. That we do.

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Speaker 7: Not have the capability as the government right now to

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Speaker 7: properly regulate generative AI large language models because Congress just

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Speaker 7: can't adapt quickly enough. I think that's very clear, and

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Speaker 7: so that's cause for alarm, whether or not you think

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Speaker 7: AI is ultimately good or bad. I get all of

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Speaker 7: the concerns about hampering our ability to be competitive in

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Speaker 7: this space when you have China putting lots of work

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Speaker 7: into AI, lots of regulation into it too, and this

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Speaker 7: potentially becoming a weapon of war. Absolutely understand that we

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Speaker 7: don't want to handicap our industry. At the same time,

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Speaker 7: we don't want to destroy civilization, right.

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Speaker 6: And yeah, And my struggle with AI is that civilization

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Speaker 6: has always been this kind of contest between the good

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Speaker 6: and evil within all of us, and the evil is

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Speaker 6: often so much more.

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Speaker 4: Motivated than the goodness in us.

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Speaker 6: Every new technology that comes out, the pioneers in it

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Speaker 6: are often the scammers like, how can I use this

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Speaker 6: to either extract money from people, to crush my internal

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Speaker 6: rivals within a country, to crush external rivals in another country.

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Speaker 6: And then eventually the world kind of freaks out at

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Speaker 6: that and puts in place regulations and norms to try

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Speaker 6: to control things. But if it comes too quickly, then

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Speaker 6: we might not have an opportunity for that. But here,

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Speaker 6: so let's roll Sam Altman again from one of his

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Speaker 6: other clips.

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Speaker 4: Here.

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Speaker 1: I believe that there will be far greater jobs on

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Speaker 1: the other side of this, and that the jobs of

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Speaker 1: today will get better. I think it's important. First of all,

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to understand and think about GPT

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Speaker 1: four as a tool, not a creature which is easy

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Speaker 1: to get confused. And it's a tool that people have

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Speaker 1: a great deal of control over and how they use it.

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Speaker 1: And second, GPT four and things other systems like it

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Speaker 1: are good at doing tasks, not jobs, And so you

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Speaker 1: see already people that are using GPT four to do

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Speaker 1: their job much more efficiently by helping them with tasks. Now,

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Speaker 1: GPT four will, I think, entirely automate away some jobs,

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Speaker 1: and it will create new ones that we believe will

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Speaker 1: be much better this happens again. My understanding of the

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Speaker 1: history of technology is one long technological revolution, not a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different ones put together.

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Speaker 7: It's kind of insane by the way that he is

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Speaker 7: the CEO of open AI and GPT has been integrated

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Speaker 7: into all of these different products. This is his first

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Speaker 7: time in front of Congress having to explain some of

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Speaker 7: this in public.

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Speaker 3: That's outrageous.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it's a great example already of how our government

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Speaker 7: is not adapted quickly enough to technology.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, Yeah, that's like okay.

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Speaker 6: Basically they had to launch it and people in offices

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Speaker 6: had to start using it and flag it for the

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Speaker 6: lawmakers be like, this is kind of revolutionary, we might

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Speaker 6: want to talk about this now. I come down on

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Speaker 6: the side of it's actually okay if really bad jobs

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Speaker 6: go away, like.

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Speaker 3: The BuzzFeed aggregator jobs.

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Speaker 6: Those jobs most actually like most jobs. And what I

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Speaker 6: mean by that is, if you think back to the

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Speaker 6: nineteenth century and you think about what most of the

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Speaker 6: jobs were at that point, you've got right now in

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Speaker 6: Kentucky there's fewer than four thousand people working in the mines,

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Speaker 6: working in the mind sucks automating that or even better,

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Speaker 6: getting that from the sun or the wind or nuclear

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Speaker 6: power or whatever is better than going down into those

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Speaker 6: filthy minds all the typists, you know, hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 6: of typists around the country. Typing sucks, No, he wants

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Speaker 6: to do. Like the fact that you can automate typing.

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Speaker 6: It's good if But if people are as a result

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Speaker 6: thrown out of work and all the wealth flows up

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Speaker 6: to the top, that's a problem. But that's not a

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Speaker 6: technology problem. That's a social problem and a political problem

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Speaker 6: that we need to sort out. So if you know,

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Speaker 6: fast food jobs are mostly automated away, most people didn't.

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Speaker 4: Like working in fast food places to begin with.

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Speaker 6: If those people can do something more enriching and rewarding

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Speaker 6: with their time, that makes the world a better place.

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Speaker 6: If those people are a miserated and thrown into poverty

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Speaker 6: and made vassals of some techno state, then that makes

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Speaker 6: things worse.

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Speaker 4: But that isn't the fault of the AI. That would

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Speaker 4: be the.

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Speaker 7: Fault of us well, Or it can be the fault

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Speaker 7: of AI for moving too quickly. Sure, yeah, right, So

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Speaker 7: that's him on jobs, speaking of moving too quickly, that's

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Speaker 7: him on jobs. By the way, after people's jobs have

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Speaker 7: already been lost to AI. Again, this is his first

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Speaker 7: time in front of Congress, and these jobs have already

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Speaker 7: been affected. Let's hear what he has to say about elections.

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Speaker 7: We can go and roll the next element.

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Speaker 8: Mister Altman, maybe you can help me understand here what

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Speaker 8: some of the significance of this is. Should we be

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Speaker 8: concerned about models that can large language, models that can

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Speaker 8: predict survey opinion and then can help organizations into these

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Speaker 8: fine tuned strategies to elicit behaviors from voters. Should we

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Speaker 8: be worried about this for our elections?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you Senator Holly for the question. It's one

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Speaker 1: of my areas of greatest concern, the more general ability

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Speaker 1: of these models to manipulate and to persuade, to provide

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Speaker 1: sort of one on one interactive disinformation. I think that's

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Speaker 1: like a broader version of what you're talking about. But

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Speaker 1: giving that we're going to face an election next year

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Speaker 1: and these models are getting better, I think this is

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Speaker 1: a significant area of concern. I think there's a lot

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of policies that companies can voluntarily adopt,

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Speaker 1: and I'm happy to talk about what we do there.

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Speaker 1: I do think some regulation would be quite wise on

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Speaker 1: this topic.

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Speaker 4: Some regulation be nice.

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Speaker 6: So you know what he's talking about here, Basically, imagine

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Speaker 6: a bot program that you can deploy at scale and

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Speaker 6: that appears to be real people. We have seen attempts

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Speaker 6: at that, you know, for years, whether it's like from

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Speaker 6: that little Russian agency like you know, trying to like

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Speaker 6: mess with Bernie Sanders supporters in a Facebook thread. What

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Speaker 6: he's saying is, you know, exponentially advance that tool place

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Speaker 6: where people believe it. And I think that that means

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Speaker 6: basically the end of social media, like the end of

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Speaker 6: mass social media. I think you'll have discord servers, smaller

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Speaker 6: social media sites where you're interacting with people who you

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Speaker 6: know are real.

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Speaker 4: But the idea of a global town square.

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Speaker 6: When everybody suspects that every single one of their critics

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Speaker 6: is a bot, and they are correct ninety percent of

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Speaker 6: the time, you can't have a conversation anymore, and any

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Speaker 6: attempt at a conversation and will only then be manipulated

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Speaker 6: by whoever can afford the best bots, and most of

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Speaker 6: the conversations will be bots arguing with other bots. And

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Speaker 6: I was just kind of watching, or hopefully not watching,

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Speaker 6: and returning more to human to human interactions like actual community,

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Speaker 6: actual friends meeting up face to face, because at some

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Speaker 6: point even zoom isn't going to be ultimately persuasive. I

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Speaker 6: think it'll be years until they can fake that. But

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Speaker 6: you're going to need to kind of look in the

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Speaker 6: eye of another person to know that you're having an

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Speaker 6: actual conversation with a person, right.

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Speaker 7: Well, yeah, and that's where also you get into this

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Speaker 7: question of trust. So even if there are all of

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Speaker 7: these lingering suspicions, I mean, it's somewhat interesting to think

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Speaker 7: that in twenty sixteen there were suspicions that not suspicions,

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Speaker 7: i should say, outright accusations from the leading Democratic candidate,

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Speaker 7: Hillary Clinton herself, that bots had somehow swayed the election

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Speaker 7: for Donald Trump. Well, that suspicion, that lack of true

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Speaker 7: us in and of itself, is the social breakdown that

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Speaker 7: can start to happen because of AI. So yeah, this

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Speaker 7: stuff is a really big deal as soon as those

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Speaker 7: seeds are planted in our minds as human beings, whether

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Speaker 7: it's person to person, elect person to election, person to

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Speaker 7: their democracy.

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Speaker 3: It's extremely problematic.

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Speaker 7: And now, actually let's roll this clip from NYU professor

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Speaker 7: Gary Marcus, who also testified during the Senate hearing, and

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Speaker 7: just I think laid out it did a very good job. Like, yeah,

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Speaker 7: here's some more good alarmism from Gary Marcus.

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Speaker 2: Open ai released chat gpt plugins, which quickly led others

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Speaker 2: to develop something called autogpt. With direct access to the Internet,

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Speaker 2: the ability to write source code, and increased powers of automation.

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Speaker 2: This may well have drastic and difficult to predict security consequences.

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Speaker 2: What criminals are going to do here is to create

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Speaker 2: counterfeit people. It's hard to even envision the consequences of that.

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Speaker 2: We have built machines that are like bulls in a

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Speaker 2: china shop, powerful, reckless, and diffaul cult to control.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and that goes to the point that Sam Altman

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Speaker 6: was making earlier, where he was saying, think of these

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Speaker 6: as tools and tools that are accomplishing tasks, not as

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Speaker 6: jobs or things in themselves that are kind of thinking

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Speaker 6: like people and developing ideas and strategies.

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Speaker 4: And the question that is how much do we believe him?

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Speaker 4: How much do we.

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Speaker 6: Believe that the Bold and China Shop might have its

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Speaker 6: own ideas about how it feels like this China shop

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Speaker 6: ought to be arranged.

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Speaker 7: I mean, NBC's did a segment last week then not

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Speaker 7: a lot of other media coverage followed about how artificial

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Speaker 7: intelligence in a study decoded brain activity into dialogue recently,

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Speaker 7: so it can take your brain activity and decoded into

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Speaker 7: di I mean, this stuff is happening at a rapid

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Speaker 7: rapid clip, and I just think it's worth mentioning while

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Speaker 7: we're on the subject, that these companies are pouring millions

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Speaker 7: and millions of dollars here into Washington, DC. Yeah, you

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Speaker 7: can see this on ASEX. Open Secrets did a really

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Speaker 7: excellent breakdown of all of the lobbying how opening here

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Speaker 7: in Washington in the first three months of twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 7: They wrote one hundred and twenty three companies, universities, and

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Speaker 7: trade associations lobby the federal government on issues relating to AI.

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Speaker 3: They collectively spent roughly.

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Speaker 7: Ninety four million dollars lobbying on AI and other issues

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Speaker 7: just from January until March. Now, it's hard to say

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Speaker 7: how much of that was just about AI because these

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Speaker 7: are big tech companies. So you have Amazon, Microsoft, Oracle, Alphabet, IBM, Meta,

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Speaker 7: some really big ones, and you can break down, for instance,

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Speaker 7: that Oracle spent specifically three point one million on AI

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Speaker 7: and machine learning policy lobbying just in general on those.

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Speaker 7: Amazon has been lobbying in this space of five million

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Speaker 7: to lobby Congress and just those first three months on

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Speaker 7: issues that include AI.

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Speaker 6: Amazon really gets a pass in this whole conversation too.

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Speaker 6: You don't hear much from Amazon, but watch Amazon will

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Speaker 6: be the one that ends up just dominating this space

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Speaker 6: because they can dominate everything else once they add AI

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Speaker 6: to their matrix.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, look out well, and so General Motors, there's some

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Speaker 7: other people in the space that are doing AI lobbying

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Speaker 7: that might not be exactly expected. So General Motors obviously

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Speaker 7: that makes sense because the autonomous vehicles and all of that.

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Speaker 7: The Chamber of Commerce obviously makes sense as well. But

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Speaker 7: nineteen million dollars lobbying just in that first quarter, and

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Speaker 7: some of that did include lobbying on AI. Also, State

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Speaker 7: Farm Insurance, interestingly enough, and some other insurance companies have

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Speaker 7: been lobbying in this space. So there's just millions of

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Speaker 7: dollars pouring into Capitol Hill right now. It is great

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Speaker 7: that they finally hauled Sam Altman after his technology has

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Speaker 7: already caused some damage to testify in front of Congress.

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Speaker 3: This is technology, by the way.

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Speaker 7: That you know, whether you're an alarmist or not, it

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Speaker 7: has massive potential. If you're not an alarmist, you love

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Speaker 7: it because you're like, this has massive potential. Either way,

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Speaker 7: you agree that it has massive potential. So it's great

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Speaker 7: that Congress finally hauled him in, but he had a

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Speaker 7: private dinner with members of the House the night before.

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Speaker 7: Some of this is going to be cozying in the

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Speaker 7: same way that we saw Facebook and Twitter do that

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Speaker 7: in the sort of early Obama era.

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Speaker 3: This is not just going to be Congress like getting

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Speaker 3: tough on open AI.

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Speaker 7: There's going to be a cozy relationship to some extent.

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Speaker 7: So just encourage people to keep an eye on that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and this is one of those classic Washington arrangements

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Speaker 6: where you have concentrated power behind one side of the

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Speaker 6: issue and one company basically in one company, and then

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Speaker 6: diffuse opposition or diffuse skepticism very much. Take ethanol being

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Speaker 6: like the very classic example where you have some ethanol

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Speaker 6: producers in the Midwest who like really really really care

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Speaker 6: about ethanol, like that's the only thing that they care about.

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Speaker 6: They spend all of their time, energy, and money lobbying

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Speaker 6: Congress on ethanol. The rest of the public is like,

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Speaker 6: this seems like not worth doing. But you know what,

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Speaker 6: I have so many other things to do with my

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Speaker 6: day that I'm not going to turn myself into an

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Speaker 6: anti ethanol lobbyist. And so they just steamroll their way through.

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Speaker 6: And so you have a version of that because there

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Speaker 6: isn't really.

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Speaker 4: A kind of cent traded opposition.

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Speaker 6: It's whereas everybody is kind of opposed, right and kind

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Speaker 6: of nervous, but they're not collected. They're not aggregated together

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Speaker 6: in a way they can in a way they can

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Speaker 6: push back. There's also a huge irony moving to the

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Speaker 6: next block here in what we're actually talking about in

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Speaker 6: our politics compared to what the future would look.

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Speaker 4: Like under AI.

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Speaker 6: The entire debt ceiling debate so far has come down

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Speaker 6: to the question of work requirements for food stamp recipients. So,

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Speaker 6: on the one hand, we're hearing from Congress that most

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Speaker 6: jobs might just be wiped out within a decade by AI.

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Speaker 6: Congress's response to that is, let's make sure people who

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Speaker 6: are getting food stamps are doing meaningless make work in

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Speaker 6: order to get those food stamps. And I'm really curious

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Speaker 6: from your so we could put b one up here.

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Speaker 6: This is Kevin McCarthy saying that this is a red

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Speaker 6: line for him. Like if take to pretend that he's

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Speaker 6: serious for a second, he'd be saying that you have

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Speaker 6: to increase work requirements for SNAP beneficiaries or else he

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Speaker 6: will default. He will drive the government into default and

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Speaker 6: drive the global economy into a crisis. Now that doesn't

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Speaker 6: seem credible to me because the threat and the demand

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Speaker 6: don't seem.

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Speaker 4: To line up to me.

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Speaker 6: But pretend he's pretend that the word's coming out of

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Speaker 6: his mouth are honest ones.

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Speaker 4: Just for giggles.

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Speaker 6: Why are they claiming to be drawing this red line

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Speaker 6: when just a couple of years ago you and I

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Speaker 6: are talking about how you've got this new energy on

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Speaker 6: the right around being more generous to working families and

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Speaker 6: more generous to the poor and pushing for you know,

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Speaker 6: child child credits, other and other credits so that families

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Speaker 6: can kind of, you know, make it through the difficult times.

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Speaker 6: How do we how did we get back to the

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Speaker 6: Paul Ryan Eira all of a sudden, Well, you know.

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Speaker 7: That that was always paired Interestingly enough, if you read

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Speaker 7: some of like Marco Rubio's speeches where he was making

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Speaker 7: that argument that the conservative movement needed to like shift

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Speaker 7: its focus to individuals over like the free market. The

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Speaker 7: market exists to serve families. As the line that a

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Speaker 7: lot of sort of new right people will use, it

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Speaker 7: was always coupled with this intense focus on the dignity

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Speaker 7: of work, that you cannot just disrupt people's lives with

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Speaker 7: all of these different like programs that are hard to

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Speaker 7: get off of and create, you know, all kinds of

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Speaker 7: different community based issues, and then this is the argument

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Speaker 7: that's made and then expect everyone to be happy. So

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Speaker 7: it was always coupled with that. And I'm not surprised

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Speaker 7: at all that McCarthy is referring to it as a

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Speaker 7: red line because in a way, I think what happened yesterday,

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Speaker 7: Kevin McCarthy obviously met with President Biden, Truck Schumer, Mitch McConnell.

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Speaker 7: What happened yesterday, I think, despite what the media is saying,

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Speaker 7: was a really big win for Kevin McCarthy and Republicans

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Speaker 7: and an L that Biden and took. I think the

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Speaker 7: White House knew that they were taking an L. I

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Speaker 7: don't think they were caught off guard by this, but

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Speaker 7: Biden said he was not negotiating period. He said there

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Speaker 7: will be no conditions on a debt ceiling increase.

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Speaker 3: That is his red line.

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Speaker 7: He said that for months, which is why these conversations

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Speaker 7: are just happening now, by the way, when we have

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Speaker 7: like days to go until a potential default. And that

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Speaker 7: turned out to not be the case because here Biden

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Speaker 7: has actually appointed negotiators. And that's like a big, big,

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Speaker 7: big loss for Biden because he said that was never

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Speaker 7: going to happen. We've talked before about why Biden strategically

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Speaker 7: it didn't have to happen.

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Speaker 3: He doesn't have to be doing any of this.

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Speaker 7: Republicans have the losing hand here in the battle of

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Speaker 7: public relations. But I think that's why Kevin McCarthy is

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Speaker 7: saying this is his red line, because he feels like

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Speaker 7: he's in a stronger negotiating position right now so he

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Speaker 7: can say, you know, something that obviously is out of

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Speaker 7: whack proportionately is his red line.

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Speaker 3: I think it.

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Speaker 7: Reflects actually that he feels like he suddenly has the

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Speaker 7: upper hand.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, complete clown show from the House because on the

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Speaker 6: one hand, they said we are absolutely not negotiating on

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Speaker 6: lifting the debt ceiling. And on the other hand, they said,

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Speaker 6: we're not going to take any creative action in order

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Speaker 6: to push past the debt ceiling if we get to it,

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Speaker 6: like we're not going to look at looking and looking

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Speaker 6: at look into minting the coin.

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Speaker 4: Where we're not going to explore the fourteenth Amendment.

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Speaker 6: That would be a constitutional crisis, although he started hinting

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Speaker 6: at it more recently but earlier to have taken those

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Speaker 6: all off the table.

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Speaker 4: Said well, then your only option is to work with

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Speaker 4: the House.

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Speaker 6: If you're not going to negotiate and you're not going

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Speaker 6: to do anything creative, then all you can do is

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Speaker 6: just rubber stamp the house built, which you're not going

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Speaker 6: to do. So it is a completely incoherent response from

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Speaker 6: the White House the way they're trying to pretend that

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Speaker 6: they're not negotiating if but they keep slipping a little

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Speaker 6: bit as they say, we're negotiating the upcoming budget deal.

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Speaker 4: And also there's this debt.

444
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 6: Ceiling thing on the side, which we assume that once

445
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 6: we reach a budget deal, they will agree to lift

446
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 6: the debt ceiling, but they will be doing that on

447
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 6: their own, not any result of any negotiations. But then

448
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 6: Biden in shorthand will refer to it as like death

449
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 6: ceiling negotiations or something close to that.

450
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 4: So it's like nice, nice try there.

451
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 6: So here's here's Kevin McCarthy by the way outside of

452
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 6: the White House after the meeting yesterday.

453
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 4: This is B two.

454
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 9: The great thing about that question is we've already had

455
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 9: taken developed off the table because the House Republicans passed

456
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 9: a bill that raised the debt ceiling, limited our future spending,

457
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 9: saved taxpayers money by being able to pull back unspent

458
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 9: money and waste, and actually grow our economy by making

459
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 9: our economy stronger and helping lifting people out of poverty

460
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,400
Speaker 9: into work. And so those are the parameters we'll talk about.

461
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 7: So, yeah, the McCarthy quoters, when you're talking about work requirements,

462
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 7: remember what we're talking about, able bodied people with no dependents.

463
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 3: It's twenty hours.

464
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,360
Speaker 7: Biden says, quote, I voted for tougher aid problems. That's

465
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 7: in the law now, But for Medicaid it's a different story.

466
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 7: And so I'm waiting to hear what their exact proposal is.

467
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:55,919
Speaker 7: Then the White House comes in with a tweet that

468
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 7: says the House Republican wish list would put a million

469
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 7: older adults at risk of losing their food asys since

470
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 7: in going hungry, rather than push Americans into poverty, we

471
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 7: should reduce the deficit by making sure the wealthy and

472
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 7: large corporations pay their fair share and taxes. So you

473
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 7: can see how the White House kind of steps in

474
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 7: to say we're not negotiating on this. John Fetterman then

475
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 7: sweeps in as well.

476
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 6: Yes, so I think I want to play this Fetterman cloaks.

477
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 6: I think people should see it. I think Fetterman has

478
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 6: a brilliant idea for a question to these Silicon Valley

479
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 6: bank people. But his disability as a result of his

480
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 6: stroke is still quite quite noticeable, even if you're completely

481
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 6: supportive of the question that he's firing at these bank executives.

482
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 6: Let's let's roll Fetterman here.

483
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 10: The Republicans want to give a work requirement for snap,

484
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 10: you know, for a hungry family has to have these

485
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 10: this kind of penalties. Are these some kinds of word

486
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 10: working requirements? Shouldn't you have a working requirement after we

487
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 10: sail your bank billions or your bank because they see

488
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 10: me we're preoccupied, then SNAP and requirements for works for

489
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 10: a hundred people, but not about protecting the tax papers

490
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 10: you know that will bail no matter whatever does about

491
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 10: a bank to crash it.

492
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 6: I mean, I love the idea, but you have to

493
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 6: kind of like lice through there to kind of get

494
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 6: to the idea. But basically, as you can tell, I

495
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 6: think from that, he's saying, why don't the rich have

496
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 6: to suffer the same indignities as the poor?

497
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 4: Do that?

498
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 6: And I think that that that's a great idea that

499
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 6: if you want to kind of maintain some of your

500
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 6: income from crashing a bank after you get bailed out,

501
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 6: then once a week you have to walk down to

502
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 6: the Social Security office and you have to piss in

503
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,479
Speaker 6: a cup, and you have to otherwise be humiliated in

504
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 6: all the ways that they humiliate the poor in the

505
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 6: working class for their very meager benefits. But clearly, you know,

506
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 6: Fetterman's you know, still got a ways to go in

507
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 6: his recovery.

508
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

509
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 7: No, it's tough to watch, but I love question and

510
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 7: I'm all for it. It's you know, I think what

511
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 7: happened in a way sticks with a lot of Americans still,

512
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 7: and the more we c SVP and all of these

513
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 7: different things happening the more that I think that's going

514
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 7: to be on people's minds.

515
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, and Elizabeth Warren and some other senators might have

516
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 6: been bipartisan, had introduced a bill yesterday that would claw

517
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 6: back basically all income from bank executives, or maybe not

518
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 6: all income, but all income above a certain threshold within

519
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 6: five years of a bank collapse, which is to me

520
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 6: should be a no brainer.

521
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 4: Is a great way to reset incentives.

522
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 3: I was going to say, that's exactly it.

523
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 7: The incentive system is shattered, especially when you have JP

524
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 7: Morgan just acting as our national bank.

525
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 3: And swallowing up different things.

526
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 7: There are no incentives basically, and there have to be incentives.

527
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 7: So those conversations about guardrails I.

528
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 3: Think are important.

529
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 6: You actually would not even necessarily need legislation. And Gary Gensler,

530
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 6: I know he loves to watch counterpoints, so if he's

531
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 6: watching now or if his staff is watching, Dodd Frank

532
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 6: Act says that there can be no bank compensation that

533
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 6: produces instability in the markets, and so that can easily

534
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 6: be read as if you incentivize reckless behavior on the

535
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 6: part of bank executives, that can be banned through SEC rulemaking,

536
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 6: And so you could easily then say, and you could

537
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 6: hit private equity with this too.

538
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 4: Say, if your entire pay.

539
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 6: Is based on a huge share of profits that you

540
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 6: took from massive layoffs, you can't have that money now

541
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 6: the company. If you think that that's the right decision

542
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 6: for the company, fine, go ahead. We're not going to

543
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 6: tell you how to run your company, but we're going

544
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 6: to say you can't take that worker's money. You can't

545
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 6: take the pench of money and put it in your

546
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 6: own pocket. And so then if you want to make

547
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 6: the decision for the benefit of the company, okay, let's see.

548
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 6: Now we're in the free market, go for it. But

549
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 6: you can't just loot the company.

550
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 7: I mean, I'm these are like completely reasonable discussions anti looting.

551
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, anti looting. There you go.

552
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 7: Well, just we'll put the last element up here. Just

553
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 7: to kind of put a cherry on top of all

554
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 7: of this, The White House did confirm that Kevin McCarthy

555
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 7: is going to be negotiating with two top Biden officials,

556
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 7: Steve and Silanda will represent us in talking with McCarthy

557
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 7: about the budget and with the goal of reaching a

558
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 7: bipartisan product that can pass both houses.

559
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 6: That's about the budget, not the debt ceiling. Don't don't

560
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 6: confuse these for debt ceiling talks. These are budget talks.

561
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,239
Speaker 7: Exactly to Ryan's point, they're trying to say budget, but

562
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 7: you can see right there they are negotiating period. They

563
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 7: said they wouldn't. It's not just about the budget. It's

564
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 7: about the dea'st something. Everybody knows that. But that's a

565
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 7: that's an L for the White House. And I think

566
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 7: if you're on the left of the right you can

567
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 7: you can see it. I don't think they were taken

568
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 7: aback by the fact that they had to take that oult,

569
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 7: but they clearly did.

570
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 6: And it's also an L for our imperial power projection

571
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 6: because Biden had been at a long standing to Australia.

572
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 6: Australians have been begging the United States to get into

573
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 6: a kind of a tighter alliance with them as they're

574
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 6: trying to counteract China and you know, get get all.

575
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 4: Get all tough in that region.

576
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 6: And Biden is now canceling the trip to Australia, which

577
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 6: the biggest news in Australia for a long time.

578
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 4: Biden's coming, the United States President's coming.

579
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 6: We're going to do this, We're gonna show them that

580
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 6: we're gonna you know, it's going to be amazing New Guinea.

581
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 3: It was very much anticipating trip.

582
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely and necessary four our kind of imperial ambitions

583
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 6: in the region. He's still going to do the G

584
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 6: seven trip over the weekend, which Republicans were pressuring him

585
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 6: to cancel, saying we have more important things to do

586
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 6: at home. It's like, no, there's nothing more important for

587
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 6: the empire than like secting the resident out there to

588
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 6: project power like that's there's a there's a real disconnect

589
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,479
Speaker 6: in what it is that allows us to run the

590
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 6: deficits that we run.

591
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, let's move on to elections. Believe it or not,

592
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 7: there were elections on Tuesday. We're getting into primary season,

593
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 7: actually from Kentucky to Pennsylvania. Ryan, you were paying attention

594
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 7: to some of these races pretty closely. There's some interesting

595
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,719
Speaker 7: implications for the left. We can throw see one up

596
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 7: on the screen here. Five thirty eight did an article

597
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 7: just saying, you know, here are some of the races

598
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 7: to watch. They were looking at, did the Jacksonville mayor's race,

599
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 7: looking at the Kentucky Republican gubernatorial primary, which did have

600
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 7: some interesting results. And then you have the modern progressive Democrats,

601
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 7: as five to thirty eight puts it facing off the

602
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 7: latest skirmish of their nationwide war for big city city halls.

603
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 6: To do Democrats or Republicans first, I thought, we do Democrats.

604
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 4: That's to the Democrats for us.

605
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 6: So the partisan race was a special election in Delaware County,

606
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 6: which outside of Philadelphia, to decide control of the Pennsylvania

607
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 6: State House of Representatives. Whoever won it was going to

608
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 6: control the House. It's a blue leaning seat, but it

609
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 6: was a competitive race. Heather Boyd, who's a Democrat, was

610
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 6: even endorsed by Biden. Like that's how significant became. It's

611
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 6: unusual for the president to come in and endorse in

612
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 6: a state house election. Republicans were threatening that if they

613
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 6: won that seat, and which would give them control of

614
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 6: both the State House and the State Senate, that they

615
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 6: were going to then put an abortion van on an

616
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 6: amendment on the ballot, which in Pennsylvania I think that loses.

617
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 6: There's Pennsylvanians who think that it actually carries. It's not

618
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 6: clear exactly how that would have gone. Instead, she ended

619
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 6: up winning in basically a landslide, something like sixty to

620
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 6: forty and so Democrats will maintain control of the House.

621
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 6: They also have the governor's managers that'll give them an

622
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 6: advantage as they go into these deaths of talk.

623
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 4: So that's the part is in Red Blue one.

624
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 6: In the intrademocratic stuff, you had basically three key races

625
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 6: in Pennsylvania. You had a prosecutor race in Allegheny County,

626
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 6: which is Pittsburgh. It was between kind of a tough

627
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 6: on crime prosecutor and a criminal justice reformer, a very

628
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 6: reform minded person the whole with the whole debate being

629
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 6: about rising crime and trying to pin that on the

630
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 6: left and defund the police. And the reform candidate wins

631
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 6: like one in a blowout, knocked out the incumbent Chago prosecutor. Yes,

632
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 6: a Chicago style win in Pittsburgh. You then had the

633
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 6: basically the most powerful position in Pittsburgh is the Allegheny

634
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 6: County executive, something like a three billion dollar budget. That

635
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 6: race was won by a DSA member, a former DSA

636
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 6: member at least Sarah Imamorado was endorsed by Bernie Sanders

637
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 6: And who rose to prominence in Pennsylvania in twenty eighteen

638
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 6: running as a kind of co DSA person with Summer

639
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 6: Lease Summerly running for the state Senate in Mamorado running

640
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 6: for the state House. Both of them won these kind

641
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 6: of shocking upsets that were overshadowed at the time by

642
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 6: AOC and the rest of the squad winning their congressional races.

643
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 6: But at the state level, I was like, oh wow,

644
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 6: here's some up and coming energy coming out of the

645
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 6: Bernie Sanders campaign. And now one of those is in

646
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 6: Congress Summer Lea, and the other is on her way

647
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 6: to becoming count executive. Because whoever wins the primary in

648
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 6: Alleghany County is going to win. Whatever Democrat wins is

649
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 6: going to win the general. Over in Philadelphia, the left

650
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 6: took a significant loss.

651
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: So that's interesting just on the other corner of the

652
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 3: state right.

653
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 6: And this was also a race that was heavily about crime.

654
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 6: You had Helen gimm running as the kind of left candidate.

655
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 6: She had sort of quasi endorsed Minnesota's what do you

656
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 6: call it, recreation of its police force that went to

657
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,479
Speaker 6: the ballot after the George Floyd protests. So you have

658
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 6: a serious reformer running up running against a basically Eric

659
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 6: Adams style candidate who said she was going to hire

660
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 6: more police officers, and she was going to she's going

661
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 6: to bring into effect what they call what she was

662
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 6: calling constitutional stop and frisk. So extremely clear contrast, Now

663
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 6: she had the backing of the building trades unions, which

664
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 6: are extraordinarily powerful in Philadelphia, there was an enormous amount

665
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 6: of super pack spending attack ads against Helen Gim, and

666
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 6: so the combination of those things had her finished in

667
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 6: third place, even she didn't even finish in first place.

668
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 6: But I also think it shows the limits in some

669
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 6: ways of the left when it's unable to bring in

670
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 6: black working class voters. And Brandon Johnson was very much

671
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 6: able to do that in Chicago. Helen Gim, who's not black,

672
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 6: was not able to do that. Like you if you

673
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 6: look at the if you look at where she lost

674
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 6: in heavily black neighborhoods, because she was kind of wiped out.

675
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 6: And the left can't and really shouldn't be able to

676
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 6: pull off victories in a way like because if you're not,

677
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 6: if you're not pulling in that coalition, are you were

678
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 6: then really able going to be able to bring.

679
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 4: About fundamental change that you need.

680
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 6: So that was a shot Helen him had been a

681
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 6: council at large, so she had already run one city

682
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 6: wide and so that was kind of Philadelphia Left's best shot,

683
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 6: but came up significantly short.

684
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 7: So I mixed back and it's kind of interesting. On

685
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 7: the Republican side, the Kentucky gubernatorial primary and Republican primary

686
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 7: in or in Kentucky had some interesting results. We actually

687
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 7: have a little audio to play here. Let's roll that.

688
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 7: This is Rhonda Santis, who jumped into the race actually

689
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 7: really at the last minute, like twenty four hours before

690
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 7: it was, before the race was over, to endorse and

691
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 7: do some rope calls for one of the candidates, Kelly Kraft,

692
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 7: who ultimately lost to Daniel Cameron. He may remember he

693
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 7: gave a kind of barn burning RNC speech back in

694
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 7: twenty twenty that got a lot of media attention that

695
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 7: Republicans were really happy with.

696
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 3: Here's what Desanta said on behalf of Kelly Craft.

697
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 5: Hello, this is Governor Ron DeSantis coming to you from

698
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 5: the Free state of Florida. You've had a woke liberal

699
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 5: governor's put a radical agenda ahead of Kentuckians.

700
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 4: The stakes couldn't be higher.

701
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 5: I know what it takes to stand up for what's right,

702
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 5: and Kelly Kraft's got it, She's proven it. I'm strongly

703
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 5: encouraging you to go out and vote for my friend

704
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 5: Kelly Kraft.

705
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 7: Well, Kelly Craft lost to Daniel Cameron, who's the current Yeah,

706
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 7: she was I believe Trump's un ambassador for a couple

707
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 7: of years towards the end.

708
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 3: Of his presidency.

709
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 7: Daniel Cameron is the Attorney General of Kentucky, one of

710
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 7: the most prominent I would say black Republicans in the country.

711
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 7: He's sort of a McConnell protege, That's how the media

712
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 7: likes to describe him. And he has.

713
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 3: Cleared the the field. One of woned an.

714
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 7: Easy victory, which I think people expected. I will say

715
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 7: the reason I think I think it was Ted Cruz

716
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 7: and Ronda Santis both got into this race. I'm almost

717
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 7: certain it's because they share a consultant with Kelly Craft.

718
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 7: I think Actium Strategies Jeff Row were probably involved in

719
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 7: all of that, which is often how it happens. People say, like,

720
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 7: why the heck is Ronda Santis wading into this weird

721
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 7: like primary race at the last minute? What possible benefit

722
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 7: is in it for rond De Santis? Well, I also

723
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 7: pulled Kelly Craft's FEC record. She did donate to Ronda Santis,

724
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 7: like ten grand to ron de Santis, maybe not in total,

725
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 7: but she had at least one ten grand donation to

726
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 7: a Desanta's pack, So there's that too. But I think

727
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 7: it's more it's one of those things that was probably

728
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 7: organized by about like consultant.

729
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 4: Does that hurt the consultant?

730
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 6: Like does when next time the consultant goes back to

731
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 6: cruise and DeSantis I.

732
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 4: Got a horse, I got a horse. You got to

733
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 4: get behind.

734
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 6: Or is it like, look, she's gonna lose by thirty points,

735
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 6: but just do this favor for her and she'll give

736
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 6: you money.

737
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 7: You know. I think the DeSantis Trump feud right now

738
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 7: is getting so bitter because normally I don't think it

739
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 7: hurts the consultant at all, because that's just it's just

740
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 7: it's just perceived as business as usual in Washington, d C.

741
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 3: This is what you do.

742
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 7: It's the horse trading, you know, it's just how things go.

743
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 7: But I think in this case, because it's such a

744
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 7: bitter feud, it could definitely come back and be like, well, what.

745
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 3: Are we doing here?

746
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 7: Why is Rond DeSantis extending his credibility in ways that

747
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 7: he can't really afford to in such a tightly contested

748
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 7: presidential race. Obviously around Santa is not formally in the

749
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 7: race yet, but obviously is heading that direction. The other

750
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 7: thing I think is worth mentioning is the Jacksonville mayor's race,

751
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 7: which actually flipped from a Republican incumbent to now the

752
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 7: first female mayor I think of Jacksonville, who is a Democrat.

753
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 7: Jacksonville is in a county that Joe Biden did win,

754
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 7: but DeSantis also won it, so it's a competitive area.

755
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 7: DeSantis came in and endorsed as a law and order

756
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 7: candidate the mayor or the Republican who is running in

757
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 7: the mayor mayoral election to replace the Republican incumbent, but

758
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 7: that person lost by about four points as it stands

759
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 7: right now, to this new Democrat female mayor.

760
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 3: And again that's.

761
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 7: You know, it makes sense that DeSantis would obviously endorse

762
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 7: the Republican candidate for Jacksonville is the largest city I

763
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 7: think that had a Republican mayor, not a lot of

764
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 7: Republican mayors and city. Even if you're in a red state,

765
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 7: your city's probably blue. You probably don't have a Republican mayor.

766
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 7: But this is one of the big cities that did

767
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 7: have a Republican mayor, not anymore.

768
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 6: And if you have a Republican mayor, the chances are

769
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 6: that you are a wildly sprawling city. What's funny is

770
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 6: that Oklahoma City is fort Worth one of them two.

771
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 6: But Oklahoma City and Jacksonville are are the two biggest

772
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 6: cities that consistently elect Republicans as their mayors.

773
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 4: That's what made this such a big upset.

774
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 6: But if you've ever been to either of those cities,

775
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 6: they take like forty minutes to drive from one end

776
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 6: to the other, and.

777
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 4: You're like, when do I get into the city?

778
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 3: Right?

779
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 6: And the downtown is like one block and then the

780
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 6: rest of it is just forty minutes of sprawl that

781
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 6: is aggregated together and called a city. And so because

782
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 6: you end up then getting the same kind of political

783
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 6: dynamics of a suburb more or less.

784
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: Right and Fort Worth, you're right, does have a Republican.

785
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 4: Mianes in Fort Worth.

786
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 6: I haven't been to Fort Worth, but if I had

787
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 6: to guess based on my own.

788
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 3: You are right. See, yes, absolutely.

789
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 7: Let's move on to the allegations against Rudy Giuliani. Very

790
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 7: serious allegations against Rudy Giuliani. I'm reading from a Politico

791
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 7: article here a former employee of Juliani's assuming him for

792
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 7: ten million dollars over allegations of sexual assault and harassment,

793
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 7: wage theft, and quote other misconduct, including several instances that

794
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 7: were recorded. According to a complaint filed Monday, Noel Dunfeed,

795
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 7: the employee bringing the lawsuit, was hired by Juliani in

796
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 7: January of twenty nineteen. She said it was an opportunity

797
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 7: that was quote too good to pass up, but then

798
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 7: that the offers were quote a sham motivated by Giuliani's

799
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 7: desire to quote pursue a sexual relationship with Dunfie, and

800
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 7: the abuse began quote almost immediately, she alleges.

801
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 3: This is a seventy page filing.

802
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 7: It has multiple accusations of sexual harassment sexual assault, including,

803
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 7: as Politico says, accusations that Giuliani forced Dunfee to perform

804
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,959
Speaker 7: oral sex on him in his Upper East Side apartment and.

805
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 3: While he took phone calls.

806
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 7: Giuliani aggressively pursued a sexual relationship with Dunfee, the filing says,

807
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 7: and made clear that satisfying his sexual demands was a

808
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 7: requirement of her job. He continually pressured her into sex

809
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 7: and was unconcerned about whether Dunfee had given consent, the complaint,

810
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 7: says Politico goes on. Giuliani did not respond to requests

811
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 7: for comment, but a spokesperson told the AP that the

812
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 7: former marya quote vehemently denied the allegations. Now, I think

813
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 7: I want to also mention that all with all of

814
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 7: the sexual stuff, he also in the filing is accused

815
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 7: of going on quote, alcohol drenched rants that included sexist, racist,

816
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 7: and any semitic records remarks, And there are recordings of

817
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 7: those accordings.

818
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 6: And the recordings are the podcasts and the TV shows

819
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 6: where he would do those live. I believe that there

820
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 6: are recordings of those.

821
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 4: They're on YouTube probably well.

822
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 7: If you see them in public, imagine in private what

823
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 7: those recordings potentially private.

824
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 6: Like the lawsuit included footage from that Boride film where

825
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,479
Speaker 6: he's everybody's seen this one, I'm sure, where he's lying

826
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 6: on a bed and just saying that this is basically

827
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 6: a recreation of what he was doing with her on.

828
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 4: A regular basis.

829
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 6: The big debate that I've seen about this is is

830
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 6: Juliani more wretched than people thought? Or is this expected

831
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 6: from Giuliani? Like that's that seems to me to be

832
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 6: the only questionquestion that's left open by a lot of this,

833
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 6: a lot of this stuff except for the kind of

834
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 6: sideways allegation of a major crime that involves President Trump

835
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 6: that hasn't gotten much attention, which I think says a

836
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 6: lot about our politics as well. She alleges that Rudy

837
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 6: Giuliani and Trump were selling pardons for two million dollars

838
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 6: and that they were splitting the money, and he said

839
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 6: to her, if you know anybody that needs a pardon,

840
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 6: that's what it costs, send them directly to me. Obviously,

841
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 6: do not go through the pardon office because that creates

842
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 6: a paper trail. We're just going to do this back channel.

843
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 6: And the thing here is a that's the most believable

844
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 6: allegation you could ever possibly called would be Rudy Giuliani

845
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 6: is the least credible witness in any case. Is he

846
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 6: just saying something because he thinks it's, you know, going

847
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 6: to impress his assistant, or is this a real thing.

848
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 6: If it is, it seems like it would be the

849
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 6: easiest thing to prove. All you have to do is

850
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 6: find million dollar transactions to two million dollar transactions moving

851
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 6: around between Giuliani and Trump and people who got pardoned,

852
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 6: because we know who got parted.

853
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 7: I think that's the thing is with Rudy Giuliani, especially

854
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 7: if he's going on what's the exact quote here, alcohol

855
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 7: drenched rants?

856
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 3: Is he spinning his wheels on his own?

857
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 7: It seems unlikely to me that Donald Trump, whatever you

858
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 7: think of him, would be dumb enough to put a

859
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 7: two million dollar price tag on a bribe and then say, Rudy,

860
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 7: go sell these. It sounds more plausible to me that

861
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 7: Rudy was just selling these because he's clearly been I think.

862
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 3: Impaired by Trump too.

863
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, yeah, I think he's like clearly been impaired

864
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 7: by the disease of alcoholism. You can see it pretty plainly.

865
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 7: It appears that way. You know, we don't know him,

866
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 7: we're not in his head, we're not personal acquaintances or

867
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 7: friends of Rudy Giuliani.

868
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 4: Obviously probably call him and ask him.

869
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 7: You could definitely ask him, but you can see it

870
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 7: pretty plainly in public what what appears to be constant,

871
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 7: you know, impairment from alcohol in public spaces and to

872
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 7: the extent where he doesn't have a lot of control

873
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 7: over what he's saying. I think Rudigiani has undergone a

874
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 7: pretty tragic arc.

875
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 4: What incredible arc?

876
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, just an incredibly tragic arc happening before the public.

877
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 7: And now other people apparently are were caught up and

878
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 7: are damage collateral damage in that journey that Rudy Giuliani

879
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 7: has been on. And so as this goes to court,

880
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 7: as this is litigated, I expect we will learn more

881
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 7: and more about these allegations. I expect we'll have pretty

882
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 7: good if there are recordings, we'll have a you know,

883
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 7: the boor At recording is actually kind of interesting because

884
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 7: the media took some out of context framing that was

885
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 7: served up to it on a silver platter by Amazon,

886
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 7: and then when you watch the full thing, it was like,

887
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,479
Speaker 7: I mean, Rudy Gilani is clearly not in a good

888
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 7: state of mind, but what you're saying it is isn't

889
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 7: exactly what it is.

890
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 3: So who knows what the deal is with these recordings.

891
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 7: But if they are coming out so aggressively in this

892
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 7: filing and they say that the recordings exist, that leads

893
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 7: me to believe that they probably have something there. So

894
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 7: this could go in a pretty bad direction for Rudy Giuliani.

895
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 6: Yet in two years he could be best friends with

896
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 6: the President of the United States.

897
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 7: And remember he's at the center of the Hunter Briden

898
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 7: laptop story. And so there's all kinds of implications not

899
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 7: just for Trump but for like American politics period. As

900
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 7: we get closer to whatever the truth is about Rudy

901
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 7: juli is both personal and professional life here, there's a

902
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 7: lot of stuff actually on the line, whether it's bribes in,

903
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 7: more allegations about what it was like being in Trump's orbit,

904
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 7: more allegations about somebody who was in Trump's orbit, perhaps

905
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 7: acting on behalf of the president or not, but perhaps

906
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 7: acting on behalf of the president doing saying ridiculous things.

907
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 7: And Rudy, what's the timeline, how does it mash up

908
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 7: with the laptop timeline? Because Rudy Giuliani is the guy

909
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 7: who had the laptop.

910
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 4: Sure was?

911
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, all right, so we got some some more conspiracy fun.

912
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 7: Right, Let's talk about Elon Musk and conspiracies that Elon

913
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 7: Musk is once at the same time dispelling and then dispensing.

914
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 7: Elon Musk actually just this week, we can put E

915
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 7: one up on the screen. He's been subpoenaed in the

916
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 7: Jeffrey Epstein suit that is being brought by the Virgin Islands.

917
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,280
Speaker 7: So if you haven't been following this, basically, the Virgin

918
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:48,439
Speaker 7: Islands is in a lawsuit against JP Morgan because they

919
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 7: believe JP Morgan was enabling the Epstein sex trafficking operation.

920
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 7: Essentially that JP Morgan knew that the bank knew he

921
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 7: was in engaged in this kind of in this kind

922
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 7: of conduct, and was enabling it by giving him access

923
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 7: to the banking services.

924
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 3: They deny. JP Morgan denies that it.

925
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 7: Had any knowledge of Epstein's crime, but the Virgin Island

926
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 7: is basically saying, as Reuters puts it, that they missed

927
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 7: red flags about Epstein's abuse of women. Now, a Monday

928
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 7: filing in US District Court in Manhattan hit Musk and

929
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 7: said that he may have been referred to JP Morgan

930
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 7: by Epstein, so they subpoenaed him for records.

931
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,399
Speaker 3: Related to this.

932
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 7: Musk says, quote that Cretan referring to Epstein never advised

933
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 7: me on anything whatsoever. He put out this tweet. You

934
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 7: can see it on the screen. We just read that

935
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 7: part of it. The notion that I would need to,

936
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 7: would need to or listen to financial advice from a

937
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 7: dumb crook is absurd. JP Morgan let Tesla down ten

938
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 7: years ago despite having Tesla's global commercial banking business, which

939
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 7: we then withdrew. I have never forgiven them. The tweet

940
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 7: ends Ryan, what do you make of Musk's reply here?

941
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 7: And what do you make of the move by the

942
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 7: Virgin Islands to subpoena him.

943
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 6: I mean, it does seem like a fishing expedition on

944
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 6: the part of the Virgin Islands, but there's plenty of

945
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 6: evidence that they did know each other and go around

946
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 6: in similar circles. If you remember, back in twenty twenty,

947
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 6: it was reported that Epstein was trying to get close

948
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 6: to Elon Musk, and to do so he set his

949
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 6: brother up Musk's brother with Epstein's former girlfriend and also

950
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 6: was given a tour of Tesla the SpaceX facility out

951
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 6: in Hawthorne, California in twenty twelve. So that's Epstein after

952
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 6: his conviction touring a SpaceX facility. He also had some

953
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 6: type of Musk went to his mansion at one point,

954
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 6: but Musk claimed that he there only for like a

955
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 6: half an hour in the middle of the day because

956
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 6: his then wife wanted to wanted to do research for

957
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 6: a novel. Musk said that he was quote obviously a

958
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 6: creep of Epstein. He also had I think he attended

959
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 6: a dinner organized by LinkedIn founder Reid Hoffman. Reid Hoffman,

960
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 6: who helped finance Eugene Carroll's lawsuit against Trump, a big

961
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 6: Democratic donor, it was quote was at his house. Oh,

962
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 6: was at his house in Manhattan for about thirty minutes

963
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 6: in the midle of an afternoon. But he said that

964
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 6: dinner was organized by Reid Hoffman and that Musk didn't

965
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 6: have anything to do other than kind of accepting.

966
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 4: The dinner invitation.

967
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 6: So, you know, some significant points of contact between Musk

968
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 6: and Epstein there, And certainly Epstein would would want to

969
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 6: get close to somebody with with Musk's global connections and

970
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 6: his wealth, and it took.

971
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 3: So logical to do that chnological interests.

972
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 9: Ye.

973
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, So while it's a fishing expedition, you know, sometimes

974
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 6: you catch fish if you go to the right place

975
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 6: with the right bait.

976
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I mean, like it just totally hypothetically. Even

977
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 7: people who recognized Epstein as a creep who did come

978
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 7: into contact with him may have valuable information about that,

979
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 7: especially if they were in that like ven diagram with

980
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 7: JP Morgan. So it's not I think the idea that

981
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 7: Musk is implicated in wrongdoing is what he's responding to,

982
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 7: because it's not fun to get headlines like that you've

983
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 7: been subpoenaed by the Virgin Islands in the Epstein lawsuit

984
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 7: with JP Morgan. But yeah, I doubt this leads to

985
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 7: anything significant about Elon Musk.

986
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 3: Who knows.

987
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 7: He did sit for an interview on CNBC yesterday. We

988
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 7: have one clip here. There were a lot of sort

989
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 7: of tidbits that came out of it. He kind of

990
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 7: per usual talked about everything. But let's roll this clip

991
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 7: right here.

992
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:53,399
Speaker 3: This is E three.

993
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 11: I mean when you when you when you link to

994
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 11: somebody who's talking about the guy who killed children in

995
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 11: a mall in Allen, Texas, you say something like it

996
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 11: might be a bad psyop.

997
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 4: I'm not quite sure what you meant, but.

998
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 12: Oh, in that particular case, there was a somehow that

999
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:25,439
Speaker 12: that's not not not that the that the people were killed,

1000
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 12: but the it was I think incorrectly ascribed to be

1001
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 12: a white supremacist action, and the evidence for that was

1002
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 12: some obscure Russian website that no one's ever heard of

1003
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 12: that had no followers. And the company that found this

1004
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 12: is belling Cat And do you know what bella cat does.

1005
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:49,800
Speaker 4: Ops.

1006
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 11: I couldn't really even follow exactly what it was you

1007
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 11: were trying to express there, So that's part why I

1008
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 11: was curious.

1009
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 12: But I'm saying that I thought that the ascribing it

1010
00:51:58,160 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 12: to white supremacy here was bullshit.

1011
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 7: I'm I mean, first of all, he just got Bellancat

1012
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 7: as a SiGe up on CNBC, so major props to

1013
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 7: him for that, because he's mostly correct on that point.

1014
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 7: On the white supremacy point, that's a different question, I

1015
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 7: think it's obvious.

1016
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 3: I mean, the police have.

1017
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 7: Confirmed that the shooter whose name we won't repeat, had

1018
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 7: white power tattoos, despite the fact that he was Hispanic,

1019
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 7: and has made this argument. Sager and I talked about

1020
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 7: this last week, and you can go check out that

1021
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 7: video because Scager wanted to talk about this, this question

1022
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 7: of cand of Hispanic be a white nationalist.

1023
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 3: Well, his ideology was one of white nationalism. From what

1024
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 3: we know.

1025
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 7: He was like actually explicitly making that argument. So whether

1026
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 7: or not you think think it makes sense is another question.

1027
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 7: The shooter himself thought it did make.

1028
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 6: Sense, right, And there are also white Hispanic people, like

1029
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 6: that's that's a thing, like there's there's enormous amounts of

1030
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 6: racism within the Hispanic community, so that is, you know,

1031
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 6: certainly could fit too. But this seems to glombed onto

1032
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 6: more of an American version of it. But right, so,

1033
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 6: I think what's interesting about this is Musk is disgusted

1034
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 6: that there could be some conspiracy theory about him when

1035
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 6: it comes to Jeffrey Epstein, but is willing to throw

1036
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 6: out a much much more ludicrous conspiracy theory that Belling

1037
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 6: so to try to explain what he's saying there because

1038
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,240
Speaker 6: the interviewer was clearly deeply confused.

1039
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 7: Well, and I think Musk was sort of confused too,

1040
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 7: because I feel like he shoots from the hip. Like,

1041
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 7: first of all, every time we talk about a Musk clip,

1042
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 7: I think it's the same thing.

1043
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 3: Like the guy seems.

1044
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 7: Completely like overworked and overtired, shooting from the hip, Like

1045
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 7: he tweets about so much stuff every single day that

1046
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 7: there's no way he could be like completely versed in

1047
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 7: every story that he's weighing in on with this like

1048
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 7: massively influential profile. And I feel like he himself had

1049
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 7: incomplete information about this theory that he's positing.

1050
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, or selectively incomplete up where we can't know. But

1051
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 6: so belling it's not at all surprising that Belling Cat

1052
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 6: would be the one that would surface this guy's information.

1053
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 6: What they are one of the most sophisticated kind of

1054
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 6: private intelligence companies around the world that works for a

1055
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 6: variety of corporate clients, NATO like, they have all sorts

1056
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 6: of different clients. What they do is they surf the

1057
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 6: entire Internet. They do it in lots of different languages.

1058
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 6: They're very good at it and there and it's not

1059
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 6: surprising that they would be the ones that first would

1060
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 6: land on this guy's profile. If you give somebody at Bellencats,

1061
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 6: say like just a handle, like here's a guy's handle

1062
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 6: that he was using on Instagram, with a couple of clues,

1063
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 6: they'll be around the world quickly. And the idea that

1064
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 6: a complete loaner nut job was using a Russian based

1065
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 6: forum should not at all be surprising. So that's the

1066
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 6: thing where Musk is saying, this doesn't make sense. Therefore

1067
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 6: there must be a conspiracy, like this loaner was using

1068
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 6: this obscure for to post his racist rants. That to me,

1069
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 6: a melon musk, that doesn't make sense. You should be

1070
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 6: postings as a loaner, your racist rants on four Chan

1071
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 6: or whatever, like it's outside of that, then it's a

1072
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 6: frame up job. And then it gets even crazier because

1073
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 6: if you draw out what he's actually alleging, and what

1074
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 6: was being alleged at the time, is that this guy

1075
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 6: was not a white supremacist, but that the FEDS were

1076
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 6: framing him up as one, were planting his rantings on

1077
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 6: obscure Russian sites so that they could then elevate the

1078
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 6: specter of white supremacy and use it to crush domestic

1079
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 6: descent and take away everybody's guns. Like that is the

1080
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 6: conspiracy that he is alleging happened, and still alleging it

1081
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 6: after the police have said, no, we have his body.

1082
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 4: It's covered in white supremacist tattoos.

1083
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 6: And you even had some people thankfully mustn't engage in

1084
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 6: this saying, boy, those are really fresh looking tattoos.

1085
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 4: It's like, whoa, you guys have lost your minds.

1086
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,280
Speaker 6: And finally, if you want to take the entire conspiracy theories. Seriously,

1087
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,399
Speaker 6: this is like the four hundredth mass shooting of the year.

1088
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 6: I mean, I'm pulling that number from thin air. We've

1089
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 6: had dozens and dozens of mass shootings and we have not,

1090
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 6: as a result, taken away the guns of anybody. Plenty

1091
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 6: of those shootings have been by actual white supremacists that

1092
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 6: nobody denies the white supremacist. So why on earth would

1093
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 6: the FEDS think that all what we need is one

1094
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 6: more orchestrated We're going to orchestrate a mass shooting because

1095
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 6: the last four hundred haven't allowed us to take anybody's

1096
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 6: guns away, but this one, we just need one more.

1097
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 7: It's one of those conspiracy theories that's predicated on an

1098
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 7: often unspoken truth about Belling Cat. Right, that doesn't because

1099
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 7: that is unspoken and true that they I mean, they

1100
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 7: do get informed. They get funding from the National Endowment

1101
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 7: for Democracy basically functions as the C. Yeah, like it's

1102
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 7: sort of like what the CIA or like the OSS.

1103
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 7: You go back, it's sort of like they kind of

1104
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 7: do that stuff, and so they have funded Belling Cat.

1105
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 7: But that being true and being also unspoken, does not

1106
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 7: mean that there's this broader conspiracy theory and that Belling

1107
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 7: Cat because they were the first to you know, make

1108
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 7: this connection to white supremacy that they were it was

1109
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 7: a setup for to increase surveillance powers. Like listen, they're

1110
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 7: proud right now to say that they're increasing surveillance powers.

1111
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 7: They don't need any more predicates like they they have

1112
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 7: every they talk about January six every single day as

1113
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 7: a predicate for increasing surveillance powers on average Americans. So yes, Like,

1114
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 7: just because it's predicated on something that is unspoken and

1115
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 7: is also true, which is Bellingcas's connection to the intelligence

1116
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 7: community and things like the national dominant for democracy doesn't

1117
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 7: mean that, you know, that type of the iceberg, doesn't

1118
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 7: mean there's everything else under the water. Well, Ryan, what

1119
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 7: you described in our show planning group text message as

1120
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 7: a quote little scoop, But.

1121
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a little scoopy. You've wreck some

1122
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 3: good news this week.

1123
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 7: Or some big news I should say, this week with

1124
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 7: a great story break it.

1125
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 3: Down for us.

1126
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, we put this first tear sheet up.

1127
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 6: This is a story that I wrote over at the

1128
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 6: Intercept so based so on Sunday, Turkish.

1129
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 4: Voters went to the polls and it was the closest.

1130
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 6: Contest that tie up Air Towan has faced in the

1131
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 6: twenty years that he's been in power in Turkey, because

1132
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,479
Speaker 6: you finally had a coalition that was able to bring

1133
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 6: together kind of the basically most elements of the Kurdish

1134
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 6: opposition with the Turkish opposition that that oftentimes had been

1135
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 6: at odds and unwilling to kind of unite to confront

1136
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 6: Air to Wan. There's a parallel in some ways over

1137
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 6: in Israel, where oftentimes you have the kind of Jewish

1138
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 6: opposition to the right unwilling or unable to link up

1139
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 6: with the Arab opposition, and so a splintered then opposition

1140
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 6: isn't able to contest. This time in Turkey, they were

1141
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 6: able to put it together, and so about a dozen

1142
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 6: international officials, elected officials, and civil society representatives went to

1143
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 6: the Kurdish region.

1144
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 4: To observe the election. I spoke with.

1145
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 6: One of them yesterday. The full interview will be in

1146
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 6: my Intercept podcast. But basically what happened is in the morning,

1147
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 6: the Turkish police come by and just start rounding up

1148
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 6: these officials and taking them to the local police station.

1149
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 6: They discovered that the rest of the officials were back

1150
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 6: at a hotel. They went to the hotel, rounded them

1151
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 6: up to brought them to the station where they were

1152
00:59:57,960 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 6: then held.

1153
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 4: Throughout the night.

1154
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 6: And we're talking about two basic members of congress it's

1155
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 6: called deputies over in Spain and a Spanish senator on

1156
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 6: top of other kind of civil society folks. Finally, at

1157
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 6: around seven am the next day after the election, they

1158
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 6: said to them, look, if you guys leave the country,

1159
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 6: we will will free you. And so they agreed, Okay,

1160
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 6: well election's over anyway, and so they were given a

1161
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 6: police escort to the airport and throughout Monday and into

1162
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 6: Monday night and Tuesday morning, flown back to Spain and

1163
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 6: basically expelled from the country just rather kind of a

1164
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 6: doing it because I can do it type of situation

1165
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 6: from air Towan. Just just a real flex of his power.

1166
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 6: And I don't think it's at all a coincidence that

1167
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 6: this happened in the Kurdish region, which is you know,

1168
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 6: which the deputy told me they were still seeing checkpoints

1169
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 6: everywhere as they're going through. It's like, it's not it's

1170
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 6: not the type of kind of free society that you

1171
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 6: and I would think of when we think of like

1172
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 6: a NATO country.

1173
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 4: So yeah, complete mess.

1174
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 6: But I also wanted to talk about what's going on

1175
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 6: in Yemen because I don't think there's a.

1176
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 4: Whole lot to talk about with Arawon. You know, he

1177
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 4: is what he is.

1178
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 6: By the way, he fell under fifty percent. He outperformed polls,

1179
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 6: but he did fall under fifty percent. So there'll be

1180
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 6: a runoff election on May twenty eighth. He's favored to

1181
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 6: win that one because this guy that got four percent

1182
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 6: is a hard right wing nationalist and most of his

1183
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 6: people will probably go with air Towan. But we'll keep

1184
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 6: following that and it has his losing would have significant

1185
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 6: implications for the EU, for NATO, for the war in Ukraine,

1186
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 6: and for other things. But so I want to go

1187
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 6: over to Yemen talk about this one for a little bit.

1188
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 6: So over there, as you guys know, because we've been

1189
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 6: covering this, the Iranian backed Houthis and the Saudi led

1190
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 6: coalition that have been battling them have paused hostilities for

1191
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 6: more than a year now and after a daytime between

1192
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 6: Iran and Saudi Arabia, which is broken by China, peace

1193
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 6: talks have been making real progress, meaning a real end

1194
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 6: to the war is in sight. But the biggest risks

1195
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 6: to those peace talks continue to be the United States,

1196
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 6: which has staked out a position that says the Houthis

1197
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 6: should give up more territory and more concessions than they're

1198
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 6: currently offering. The US diplomatic term for that is inclusive government.

1199
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 6: All we want, we say, is an inclusive government, and

1200
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 6: by inclusive they mean significant power for the Saudi and

1201
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 6: US proxies that have been thoroughly beaten on the battlefield.

1202
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 6: An inclusive government, apparently to the victor, goes just a

1203
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 6: little bit of the spoils. No victor, of course, would

1204
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 6: agree to that. So the US plan appears to be

1205
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 6: to jam up negotiations for as long as possible in

1206
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 6: the hope that hostilities reasons zoom, the Houthis launch attacks

1207
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 6: across the border at Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia responds with

1208
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 6: a devastating route of bombing, and then the US gets

1209
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 6: a nice chunk of territory in peace talks when they

1210
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 6: start up again amid all the rubble. Now, that's not

1211
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 6: only quite obviously evil, but it might not even work

1212
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 6: if the Saudi bombing campaign can't inflict the kind of

1213
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 6: damage it would need to to set the Huthis back.

1214
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 6: After all, the war is now eight years old, so

1215
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 6: it's unclear why another year of killing Yameny's would obviously

1216
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 6: change the calculus. Today, more than forty Democrats or perhaps tomorrow,

1217
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 6: led by Rashida Talib, are going to send a letter

1218
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:39,960
Speaker 6: to the White House urging the administration to tell Saudi

1219
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 6: Arabia that if hostilities resume, there will be no US

1220
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 6: assistance in the bombing, according to people who've seen the letter. Now, sadly,

1221
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 6: this whole dynamic is probably a window into how difficult

1222
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 6: it will be to end the war in Ukraine and

1223
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 6: how unhelpful the United States will be in those negotiations,

1224
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 6: since we seem to believe that our negotiating position can

1225
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 6: always be improved with just a little bit more killing,

1226
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,479
Speaker 6: just a little bit more bombing. Making a piece deal

1227
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 6: requires painful concessions, and to both the Huthis and the

1228
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 6: Saudi's credit, they've been able to do that so far,

1229
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 6: and some of that has involved seed in territory to

1230
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 6: the Houthis that they seized by force. You can believe

1231
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 6: that's an unfortunate outcome where it sets a bad precedent,

1232
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 6: but That's also how wars end. The US posture as

1233
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 6: usual requires other people to take risks for US. The

1234
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 6: calculation for the Saudis now is how much risk they're

1235
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 6: willing to take for potentially no benefit. Have the Houthis

1236
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 6: capabilities improved over the last year, Will they light up

1237
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 6: a refinery again, strike deeper into Saudi Arabia, cancel some

1238
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 6: glitzy affair with Davos types who don't like the sound

1239
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:47,440
Speaker 6: of explosions nearby?

1240
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 4: Saudi Arabia is.

1241
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 6: Trying to transform itself into a leader on the global

1242
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 6: stage and wants to put this war behind it. And

1243
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 6: if they do launch a new bombing campaign, how much

1244
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 6: will the US actually help. You may have noticed our

1245
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 6: intelligence forces and weapons makers are kind of busy lately,

1246
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 6: and so as I was thinking about this, it feels

1247
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 6: have you seen dirty Harry?

1248
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 2: You know that?

1249
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 4: What's your point today?

1250
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,439
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to break down the Durham Report now.

1251
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 7: A lot of people, if you haven't been following this closely,

1252
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 7: I completely understand. I personally don't like love this story.

1253
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 7: It's just so convoluted and complicated. That Trump Rushia stuff

1254
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,919
Speaker 7: is essential and very very important, but there's so many

1255
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 7: different loos ends, and when people start talking about George

1256
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 7: Papadopolis and Carter Page, my eyes admittedly.

1257
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 3: Glaze over a little bit. But it's an.

1258
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 7: Essential storyline to follow because it says so much about

1259
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:46,920
Speaker 7: our government, It says so much about the elite perspective

1260
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 7: on average Americans. There's so many different things wrapped up

1261
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 7: in this one storyline. So if we could start by

1262
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 7: just putting the first element up on the screen, I

1263
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 7: really like this tweet from Lefong. He says FBI informants

1264
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 7: were unethically deployed post nine eleven to entrap and ruin

1265
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 7: the lives of ordinary Muslim Americans. The extreme partisan abuse

1266
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 7: of FBI informants and the Trump Russia inquiry continues that trend.

1267
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 7: If Congress wasn't so broken slash polarized, the potential for

1268
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 7: reform is clear. That's really critical. That's actually I think

1269
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 7: the crux of all of this that at this point

1270
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:21,479
Speaker 7: you have even the FBI putting out a tweet after

1271
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 7: the Durham report came out saying we have already, because

1272
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 7: of the problems identified in the report, taken corrective measures

1273
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 7: to ensure that some of the problems raised by John

1274
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 7: Durham wouldn't happen again. That's a concession of wrongdoing pretty obviously.

1275
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 3: And the Durham Report.

1276
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 7: That came out this week essentially lays out the extent

1277
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 7: of that wrongdoing, the scope of that wrongdoing, and all

1278
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 7: of the nuances of that wrongdoing. But note it's very

1279
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 7: important right now that even the FBI, which is defended vigorously,

1280
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:53,920
Speaker 7: I should say hysterically really by people on MSNBC and CNN,

1281
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 7: where Andy McCabe is a contributor, and you're going to

1282
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 7: get Frank Figluzzi on, you know, immediately to break down

1283
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 7: Andrew I spent immediately on to break down all of

1284
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 7: the problems in the Durham report. Even the FBI is

1285
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 7: acknowledging that there were serious problems. And if you haven't

1286
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 7: been following the storyline closely, because like me or I

1287
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 7: sort of glaze over when people start to talk about Curent.

1288
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 3: Page and George Bapadopolis.

1289
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 7: Back in October of twenty twenty, John Durham was appointed

1290
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 7: by William Barr, who was then Bill Barr, who was

1291
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:26,560
Speaker 7: then the Attorney General in the Trump administration, as Special

1292
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 7: Counsel on the Order of investigating the FBI's opening of

1293
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 7: crossfire hurricanes. So that's the investigation into Donald Trump's potential

1294
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 7: collusion with the Russian government, his potential his campaign's potential collusion,

1295
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 7: potential connections to the Russian government at that time. Now,

1296
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 7: John Durham, he's a longtime prosecutor in New England, has

1297
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 7: done some stuff with the mobs, with the mob. He's

1298
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 7: a registered Republican, but somebody who even at that time,

1299
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 7: you have Democratic Senator Chris Murphy. He told CNN that

1300
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 7: Durham has reputation for being quote a political and fair.

1301
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 7: He actually backed Donald Trump's decision to choose Durham as

1302
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,520
Speaker 7: the US attorney for that region. This is more from

1303
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 7: Chris Murphy. He's been a prosecutor in Connecticut forever. He's

1304
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 7: a law and order guy, tough nose, well respected. If

1305
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:18,599
Speaker 7: I were him, I wouldn't have taken this job.

1306
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 3: But he's got a.

1307
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 7: Reputation of being a political and serious So he was

1308
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 7: appointed to sort of look into this. It became a

1309
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 7: criminal investigation, which is where Bill Barr appoints him to

1310
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 7: then serve as the Special Council back in twenty twenty.

1311
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 7: So this has been going on for a really long time,

1312
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 7: about two and a half years. Durham has been looking

1313
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:41,840
Speaker 7: into this. He recommended or he brought charges against three

1314
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 7: different individuals, one of whom actually did plead guilty. So

1315
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 7: you have Igor Denchenko, former Brookings Institute guy who was

1316
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:54,719
Speaker 7: accused of lying to the FBI. He was acquitted, Michael

1317
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 7: Sussman brought up on similar charges, also acquitted, and Kevin

1318
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 7: Klinsmith who did actually plead guilty.

1319
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 3: Now, the fact that they were.

1320
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 7: Acquitted here in Washington d C, I think probably says

1321
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:11,280
Speaker 7: a whole lot more about Washington d C. I was

1322
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:13,000
Speaker 7: talking to someone the other day who said, you know,

1323
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 7: we should not probably not try things in the Federal

1324
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 7: district where so much of the government and special interests

1325
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:21,599
Speaker 7: ets that are located, but farm those out to sort

1326
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 7: of random districts around the country. Because I think the

1327
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 7: wrongdoing on behalf of Danchenko insessment is pretty clear. Even

1328
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:29,479
Speaker 7: if a jury didn't find it to be criminal, it

1329
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:34,600
Speaker 7: was pretty clearly problematic at the very very least. But

1330
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,599
Speaker 7: you don't have to take my word a conservative for

1331
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 7: it that the Durham report is damning. There are a

1332
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:44,120
Speaker 7: lot of people like Lee, like Matt tayebe like Glenn

1333
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 7: Greenwald that have followed this story for a very long

1334
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:48,720
Speaker 7: time from the left perspective, people who were on the

1335
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:51,640
Speaker 7: right side of these questions during the Bush administration.

1336
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 3: When you know, I was a.

1337
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 7: Teenager at the very end of it, and an actual

1338
01:09:57,520 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 7: child in the beginning of it, so I wasn't really

1339
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 7: old enough to be hypocritical quite yet. That's probably lucky

1340
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:04,680
Speaker 7: for me, because who knows where it would have been

1341
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 7: on those issues. But my side was on the wrong

1342
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:09,519
Speaker 7: side of this for the most part, except for some

1343
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 7: of the civil libertarian type people. So some of those

1344
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 7: folks who've been following these stories since the nine to

1345
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 7: eleven era, of the post nine to eleven era, have

1346
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 7: been following the wrongdoing and the Trump administration. And here's

1347
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:25,600
Speaker 7: from Susan Schmidt and Rackett, which is Tayebee's excellent publication.

1348
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 3: I'm going to read this quote. According to John Durham.

1349
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:31,600
Speaker 7: The senior FBI officials who ordered the probe did not

1350
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 7: look at the bureau's intelligence databases or consult as experienced

1351
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 7: Russia analysts who could have told them that they had

1352
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 7: seen no information about Donald Trump being involved with Russian

1353
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:43,559
Speaker 7: leadership officials. Nor did they seek such information about Trump

1354
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 7: and Russia from the CIA, the NSA, or the State Department.

1355
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:49,760
Speaker 7: Neither US law enforcement nor the intelligence community appears to

1356
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:53,800
Speaker 7: have possessed any actual evidence of collusion when the investigation began.

1357
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 7: The report said, that is a really key sentence. You've

1358
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:58,760
Speaker 7: seen some of the media pull out. Remember, neither US

1359
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:01,759
Speaker 7: law enforcement nor the intelligent community appears to possess any

1360
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 7: actual evidence of collusion. And they opened Crossfire Hurricane, started

1361
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:09,599
Speaker 7: leaking details of it to the media in order to

1362
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:14,920
Speaker 7: condemn a presidential campaign because they had partisan opposition to

1363
01:11:15,240 --> 01:11:18,400
Speaker 7: the president. Further, the FBI opened a full scale investigation

1364
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:21,639
Speaker 7: quote without ever having spoken to the persons who provided

1365
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 7: the information, Schmidt notes, So you can see there. Durham

1366
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:28,400
Speaker 7: in his three hundred plus paid report actually contrasts the

1367
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 7: opening of Crossfire Hurricane with the way the FBI treated,

1368
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:35,560
Speaker 7: for instance, investigations into Hillary Clinton. They were very cognizant

1369
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:38,919
Speaker 7: that Clinton, as Peter Strek say, might be the next president,

1370
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:41,639
Speaker 7: and she might not be distinguishing between something that's DOJ

1371
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 7: and FBI and might just be coming hard down on

1372
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 7: the coming down hard on the FBI. And so we

1373
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 7: can put up the second element here. This is some

1374
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 7: reporting in the Federalists. This is I think in the headline.

1375
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:54,160
Speaker 3: You see it. Here's the headline.

1376
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 7: Here's everything the FBI deliberately ignored to get Trump and

1377
01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 7: Russian collusion hoaks. According to Durham, a lot of the

1378
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:01,639
Speaker 7: media coverage the Durham report that came out this week

1379
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:04,240
Speaker 7: after two and a half years of Special Council investigation

1380
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:08,439
Speaker 7: is has been downplaying the findings. They said he didn't

1381
01:12:08,439 --> 01:12:12,120
Speaker 7: get much. Two of his prosecutions failed in court. There's

1382
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:15,479
Speaker 7: really nothing new here. But I think what's essential to

1383
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,880
Speaker 7: know about the Durham Report and about his probe where

1384
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:22,120
Speaker 7: it's sort of investigating the investigators back in twenty sixteen,

1385
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 7: is that he is laying out what the FBI did

1386
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:31,040
Speaker 7: not do. And you can see that in the quotes

1387
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 7: that Sudan Schmidt pulled out for racket. They did not

1388
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 7: possess any actual evidence of collusion. They did not seek

1389
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 7: out the Russia analysts or other intelligence information about Donald

1390
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 7: Trump's potential connections with Russia. They laundered essentially gossip from

1391
01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:53,680
Speaker 7: Christopher Steele's primary Subsorus Stanchenko. Christopher Steel himself put it

1392
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,439
Speaker 7: in the dossier that was funded by the Clinton campaign.

1393
01:12:56,520 --> 01:13:00,519
Speaker 7: The FBI knew that, and they laundered that, and they

1394
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:02,240
Speaker 7: turned it into you.

1395
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:03,960
Speaker 3: Know, this this very credible information.

1396
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 7: They treated it like it was very credible information when

1397
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 7: it clearly, clearly clearly was not. They seemed to have

1398
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:12,439
Speaker 7: known that at the time. And so I think, again,

1399
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 7: that's what's really essential to know about the Durham report

1400
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 7: is a lot of it is proving what the FBI

1401
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 7: did not do, and he has quotes from people saying,

1402
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 7: you know, oh, this is kind of thin, et cetera,

1403
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:24,679
Speaker 7: et cetera, And so that's why, you know, I think

1404
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 7: it's this whole thing is really a bombshell. The media

1405
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 7: has compared it to Donald Trump saying it's the crime

1406
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:32,240
Speaker 7: of the century, that Durham is going to find the

1407
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:34,960
Speaker 7: crime of the century, and because they don't think it

1408
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,599
Speaker 7: lives up to the crime of the century sort of stuff,

1409
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:40,519
Speaker 7: that therefore it's it's nothing right, like this is there's

1410
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 7: nothing new here, blah blah blah. No, this is a

1411
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:47,680
Speaker 7: lot of you know, information about what the FBI declined

1412
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 7: to do. So it's true that, you know, there's there's

1413
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 7: not tons of stuff about what the FBI did do,

1414
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:58,320
Speaker 7: like active, et cetera, et cetera. It's a lot about

1415
01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:01,320
Speaker 7: what they did not do, and that stuff is huge

1416
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 7: even if it's not.

1417
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 3: You know, we've known about.

1418
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:06,960
Speaker 7: A lot of this because he tried three people in court,

1419
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:10,040
Speaker 7: so it's definitely useful to see the full three hundred

1420
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 7: plus page report. But because there were three trials, a

1421
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:15,000
Speaker 7: lot of this has already come out and we know that.

1422
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 7: But you know, this is again another line for it

1423
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 7: or review found no indication that the Crossfire Hurricane investigators

1424
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:23,800
Speaker 7: ever attempted to resolve the prior dan Chenko espionage matter

1425
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:26,960
Speaker 7: before opening him as a paid confidential human source. They

1426
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:30,439
Speaker 7: were paying Igor Denchenko. This is the subsource to the

1427
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:35,840
Speaker 7: Steel Dassier without ever following up on intelligence that he

1428
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:38,760
Speaker 7: may have been compromised. And that's again I think we

1429
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:41,080
Speaker 7: put the third element up on here. A big takeaway

1430
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:44,519
Speaker 7: from the Durham report is that here's another quote from

1431
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 7: Jerry Dunleavy's reporting and Washington Examiner. It's important, according to

1432
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:50,720
Speaker 7: Durham that in not resolving dan Chenko's status visa the

1433
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 7: Russian intelligence services, it appears the FBI never gave appropriate

1434
01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:57,080
Speaker 7: consideration the possibility that the intelligence Dnchenko was providing two

1435
01:14:57,160 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 7: Christopher Steel was in whole or part Russian Diday disinformation.

1436
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 7: So this brings us full circle to the fact that

1437
01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:07,599
Speaker 7: the opponents of Russian disinformation, who were breathlessly, hysterically trying

1438
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,920
Speaker 7: to take down Trump as a potential Russian agent, they

1439
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 7: said that over and over again, we may have a

1440
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:15,960
Speaker 7: Russian asset, a Russian agent in the White House. If

1441
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:17,200
Speaker 7: you go back and look at what was being said

1442
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:21,679
Speaker 7: on MSNBC all the time, just really casually thrown around

1443
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:24,920
Speaker 7: on Twitter, actually that in and of itself may have

1444
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:28,880
Speaker 7: been Russian disinformation. It's like they're fighting fake Russian disinformation

1445
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:32,839
Speaker 7: potentially with real Russian disinformation. And that is huge because

1446
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:35,560
Speaker 7: it's not just a failure, it is partisan corruption.

1447
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:37,720
Speaker 3: Of the FBI. We talked last week about.

1448
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 7: The CIA potentially or not potentially clearly having been used

1449
01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:46,000
Speaker 7: in a partisan fashion to shut down the Hunter Biden

1450
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 7: laptop story. In the signing of that fifty one intelligence

1451
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:54,000
Speaker 7: former intelligence official letter, the CIA was, as we talked

1452
01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:57,160
Speaker 7: about last week, getting people, it appears, to sign that

1453
01:15:57,280 --> 01:16:01,360
Speaker 7: letter from their using their official capacity as the CIA

1454
01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:02,759
Speaker 7: to get people to sign that letter.

1455
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:04,440
Speaker 3: That's insane.

1456
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:09,320
Speaker 7: It's not without predicate or it's not without precedent in

1457
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:13,800
Speaker 7: United States history. Obviously, the FBI building is literally named

1458
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 7: after j Edgar Hoovers, So it's probably no surprise that

1459
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 7: we see all the stuff coming out from the American

1460
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:22,439
Speaker 7: intelligence community time and time and again. But to just

1461
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:25,680
Speaker 7: again go back to the point that Lefong made in

1462
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:30,080
Speaker 7: his tweet, there should be a real appetite for reform

1463
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 7: in Washington, d C. There certainly is among the public,

1464
01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:37,240
Speaker 7: but they're just we're not in the Church Committee era anymore.

1465
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:40,120
Speaker 7: We look back on the wrongdoings that were uncovered by

1466
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:42,479
Speaker 7: the Church Committee with a sense of consensus that this

1467
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:45,639
Speaker 7: stuff was really bad. It's happening now before our eyes,

1468
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:50,640
Speaker 7: and the media is actually cheerleading. They are actually cheerleading

1469
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:54,639
Speaker 7: the intelligence community, helping the intelligence community, not just cheerleading them,

1470
01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:57,720
Speaker 7: but assisting the intelligence community by doing really sloppy and

1471
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:01,919
Speaker 7: bad reporting and being openly partisan for the intelligence community

1472
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 7: over the dissenting individuals.

1473
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:04,840
Speaker 3: Independent media.

1474
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:07,559
Speaker 7: The FBI leave reported actually this week how they target

1475
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:11,400
Speaker 7: vegan activists, but the media takes their side time and

1476
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:16,280
Speaker 7: time again, and I think that's a really, really pessimistic,

1477
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:20,280
Speaker 7: but rightfully pessimistic perspective. We are not in the Church

1478
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 7: Committee era, despite the fact that we are seeing very

1479
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:26,559
Speaker 7: similar stuff come out of the intelligence community. And Ryan,

1480
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 7: I'll kick it over to you with that question.

1481
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:29,639
Speaker 3: It just seems like.

1482
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:35,479
Speaker 6: Joining us now is the Intercepts. Can Clipenstein to talk

1483
01:17:35,479 --> 01:17:37,960
Speaker 6: about his latest scoop? We can put this up here

1484
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:44,040
Speaker 6: inside the Pentagon's new Perception Management Office to counter disinformation.

1485
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 6: So ken to start with, before we get into the

1486
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:51,000
Speaker 6: details of this, how'd you come on this on this

1487
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:51,679
Speaker 6: latest scoop?

1488
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 13: Well, you guys had me on recently for my last one,

1489
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:58,719
Speaker 13: which is the establishment of the Foreign Malign Influence Center,

1490
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:02,519
Speaker 13: establishing the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which

1491
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 13: also was not disclosed to a multimillion dollar agency that

1492
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:08,160
Speaker 13: established never you know, no press release telling the public

1493
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:11,320
Speaker 13: that this thing exists. And so since reporting that I

1494
01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 13: kind of alluded to this agency we're talking about now

1495
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:16,040
Speaker 13: and I got it.

1496
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:17,200
Speaker 4: Some people reached out to me. I sort of shook

1497
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:17,559
Speaker 4: the trees.

1498
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:19,680
Speaker 13: People inside the community reached out and said, oh, it's

1499
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:23,519
Speaker 13: funny you just noticed that. Thanks for catching up with us, right,

1500
01:18:23,560 --> 01:18:25,559
Speaker 13: because it was they had established it last year actually, and.

1501
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:29,439
Speaker 6: It's only public record was it was mentioned what in

1502
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:32,000
Speaker 6: a list in a budget budget docs. It's like a

1503
01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:35,160
Speaker 6: line a line of like money for this office, but

1504
01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:36,040
Speaker 6: anyhing else.

1505
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 4: And not even the money. They didn't tell you how

1506
01:18:37,320 --> 01:18:39,720
Speaker 4: much money. They just meant this money for this thing.

1507
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:42,559
Speaker 6: So I want to I want to read one one

1508
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:44,640
Speaker 6: part of your story and gets you to unpack a

1509
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 6: little bit.

1510
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:45,599
Speaker 4: And this is a.

1511
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:48,200
Speaker 6: Document that you when you shook the trees. This is

1512
01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 6: one of the documents that fell out. And so it's

1513
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:53,640
Speaker 6: it's an interesting it's like kind of a university assignment.

1514
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 4: It's kind of weird interesting how it.

1515
01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:58,559
Speaker 13: Like, Yeah, they contract with these private institutions, and it's

1516
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:01,040
Speaker 13: not entirely clear why to some extent when it concerned

1517
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:03,919
Speaker 13: speech that helps them get around certain First Amendment protections

1518
01:19:03,920 --> 01:19:06,559
Speaker 13: because they're saying, oh, actually the private group is what's doing.

1519
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:11,040
Speaker 6: This right, And so the document says, let's say DOOD

1520
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:15,559
Speaker 6: wants to influence Countries a's leaders to stop purchasing a

1521
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:19,320
Speaker 6: weapon system from Country B because we believe the continued

1522
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:22,920
Speaker 6: purchasing might jeopardize DoD's military advantage in some way if

1523
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:25,920
Speaker 6: the US ever had to engage in armed conflict with

1524
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:30,840
Speaker 6: Country A. Assuming the IPMO has worked to establish the

1525
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:35,800
Speaker 6: desired behavior change. How might key influencers be identified that

1526
01:19:35,880 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 6: have sway over these leaders thought processes, beliefs, motives, reasoning, etc.

1527
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:45,200
Speaker 6: Including ascertaining their typical modes and methods of communication. Thereafter,

1528
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:48,799
Speaker 6: assuming an influence strategy has developed, how might the DIE

1529
01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:53,400
Speaker 6: or IC determine if DoD's influence activities are working. Aside

1530
01:19:53,400 --> 01:19:56,400
Speaker 6: from waiting and watching, hopefully that country A eventually stops

1531
01:19:56,439 --> 01:20:01,439
Speaker 6: purchasing the weapon systems in question from country So translate that,

1532
01:20:01,479 --> 01:20:04,680
Speaker 6: what is this office tasking itself with?

1533
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 13: Yeah, so, as the name suggests, they're managing the perceptions

1534
01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:11,760
Speaker 13: of foreign governments and foreign nationals. But part of the

1535
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:13,680
Speaker 13: concern is that in the age of the Internet, it's

1536
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:17,920
Speaker 13: really hard to limit the public diplomacy is what they

1537
01:20:17,920 --> 01:20:20,960
Speaker 13: call it, but really it's propaganda. It's really hard to

1538
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 13: target that at a foreign audience and not have it

1539
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:26,120
Speaker 13: blow back on domestic because the distinction has been completely

1540
01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:29,679
Speaker 13: dissolved between foreign domestic. In fact, the law was even

1541
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:31,840
Speaker 13: changed to reflect that. We have a long standing law

1542
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:34,439
Speaker 13: established after World War Two. Of course, there were tons

1543
01:20:34,479 --> 01:20:36,760
Speaker 13: of propaganda at the time, and so this law was

1544
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:38,840
Speaker 13: created in response to It's called the Smith Month Act.

1545
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:45,160
Speaker 13: It's supposed to limit public diplomacy that's targeted at domestic Americans. Well,

1546
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:50,920
Speaker 13: there was a Smith Month it was called the Modernization Act,

1547
01:20:51,120 --> 01:20:54,120
Speaker 13: who was rolled into the NDAA several years ago. And

1548
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:55,920
Speaker 13: what that did is it got rid of that protection.

1549
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:58,840
Speaker 13: There's no longer that protection that once existed. And their

1550
01:20:58,880 --> 01:21:00,880
Speaker 13: rationale for was kind of interesting. I said, well, on

1551
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:03,000
Speaker 13: the edge of the Internet, this stuff isn't really meaningful anyways.

1552
01:21:03,040 --> 01:21:04,680
Speaker 13: It's like, well, so that means we should take it

1553
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:06,960
Speaker 13: extra seriously, right, But instead they just threw it out

1554
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:08,000
Speaker 13: of the window entirely.

1555
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:10,880
Speaker 7: Well, and the history of this was really interesting, not

1556
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:13,960
Speaker 7: just with Smith Mund but with the term perception management

1557
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:16,600
Speaker 7: going all the way back to the Contras.

1558
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:18,720
Speaker 3: Can you tell us a little bit ken about the.

1559
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:23,360
Speaker 7: Intelligence community's concept of perception perception management historically sort of

1560
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:24,320
Speaker 7: what it evolved from.

1561
01:21:24,439 --> 01:21:26,679
Speaker 13: Yeah, so perception management is a term of art from

1562
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:28,160
Speaker 13: as you said, the Reagan administration.

1563
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:29,479
Speaker 4: It was what they used.

1564
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 13: He assigned CIA's top propaganda expert to the National Security

1565
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:38,519
Speaker 13: Council at the time to perception managed to shape the

1566
01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:42,000
Speaker 13: narrative around the Contras because they were, you know, found

1567
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:45,840
Speaker 13: responsible for all kinds of you know, horrible atrocities and

1568
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 13: really grizzly.

1569
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:48,360
Speaker 4: Crimes, and so it became important.

1570
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:50,360
Speaker 13: And they were coming out of the Iraq or sorry,

1571
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:52,160
Speaker 13: they were coming out of the Vietnam War, and so

1572
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:54,559
Speaker 13: the concern was, how do we kick the Vietnam syndrome,

1573
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 13: this idea that the public is just you know, averse

1574
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:02,000
Speaker 13: to any sort of foreign policy of what they learned

1575
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:04,080
Speaker 13: from Vietnam, and so that this was kind of their

1576
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:07,080
Speaker 13: response to it, is we're going to shape the public

1577
01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:11,639
Speaker 13: narrative around these things, particularly in foreign press. But even

1578
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 13: then there were problems with that because as we know,

1579
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:17,000
Speaker 13: you know, wire services like writers are based in other

1580
01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:19,639
Speaker 13: countries and so they have circulation within the United States.

1581
01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:22,719
Speaker 13: So there were always problems with this foreign versus domestic distinction.

1582
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:25,400
Speaker 13: But now even the kind of paper thin wall that

1583
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:28,200
Speaker 13: they had separating the two has been just completely removed.

1584
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:30,600
Speaker 13: So that's sort of the historical context for it. And

1585
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:33,120
Speaker 13: there's one more thing. And then during the Bush administration,

1586
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:39,519
Speaker 13: Billy Mays. So during the Bush administration, there was another

1587
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:44,080
Speaker 13: attempt under then Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to stand up

1588
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:47,360
Speaker 13: a perception Management office right after nine to eleven, but

1589
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:49,559
Speaker 13: before the invasion of Iraq. And then when it became

1590
01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:51,880
Speaker 13: public that he had done this and that there was

1591
01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:53,960
Speaker 13: there were planning disinformation that was actually getting picked up

1592
01:22:54,080 --> 01:22:56,200
Speaker 13: by the American press and misinforming them about things that

1593
01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:59,400
Speaker 13: were going on in you know, the so called global

1594
01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:02,120
Speaker 13: war and terror. You know, there was enormous pressure to

1595
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:03,960
Speaker 13: shut it down and ended up doing that. And so

1596
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:08,040
Speaker 13: what's interesting is there's no attendant outrage now, perhaps because

1597
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:10,280
Speaker 13: we're not in a you know, war climate or whatever,

1598
01:23:10,360 --> 01:23:12,519
Speaker 13: but it's the it's the same thing. It's not just

1599
01:23:12,560 --> 01:23:15,080
Speaker 13: a perception management efforts within DD, which is what happened

1600
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:15,839
Speaker 13: during the Bush.

1601
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:18,040
Speaker 7: A ministry under a Democratic president who was obviously an

1602
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 7: opponent of the Bush administration, right.

1603
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:23,799
Speaker 6: And and as you write, uh, the New York Times

1604
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:26,639
Speaker 6: is the one that kind of called out the Office

1605
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:30,320
Speaker 6: of Strategic Influence as as Rumsfeld called it, uh and

1606
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:34,920
Speaker 6: and pointed out that it encountering disinformation oftentimes they were

1607
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:37,519
Speaker 6: like putting out their own disinformation to do that.

1608
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:39,280
Speaker 4: And it's just so.

1609
01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:42,439
Speaker 6: Remarkable to think of the New York Times in the

1610
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:47,800
Speaker 6: run up to the Iraq War complaining about the administration

1611
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:53,640
Speaker 6: putting out disinformation like the dedicated on disinformation that the

1612
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 6: Bush administration was funneling through the New York Times.

1613
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:57,160
Speaker 13: Well, that's kind of sleight of hand in all of

1614
01:23:57,200 --> 01:23:59,960
Speaker 13: this is they try to say, oh, you know, you know,

1615
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:02,840
Speaker 13: as a senior defense official who works in the Siobs

1616
01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:05,720
Speaker 13: area told me, he was laughing at that I in

1617
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:09,760
Speaker 13: my previous story just you know, kind of candidly said propaganda.

1618
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:11,320
Speaker 13: He's like, you're not supposed to say that the monicles

1619
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 13: are going to be dropping all over Washington. He's like,

1620
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 13: it's called public diplomacy. Can And so that's the kind

1621
01:24:17,120 --> 01:24:18,880
Speaker 13: of the slide of hand they do, because they say, oh,

1622
01:24:18,880 --> 01:24:20,320
Speaker 13: we're actually countering.

1623
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:21,639
Speaker 4: Falsehoods with the reality.

1624
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:23,519
Speaker 13: But then when you break down the facts, it's like

1625
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:25,559
Speaker 13: this stuff is politicized as anything because they have their

1626
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:28,040
Speaker 13: own set of you know, political motives and interests. So

1627
01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 13: that distinction between countering disinformation and propaganda is I think

1628
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:35,440
Speaker 13: a lot thinner than people generally recognize.

1629
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:36,600
Speaker 3: How many.

1630
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:42,240
Speaker 7: Small, little, barely publicized offices in the Pentagon do you

1631
01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:45,200
Speaker 7: think you will uncover for the remainder of the year.

1632
01:24:45,280 --> 01:24:48,320
Speaker 13: I actually just got another one since publishing this story,

1633
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:50,160
Speaker 13: and that will be my next story. But what's interesting

1634
01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:52,240
Speaker 13: about the Pentagon is that what's happening and with this

1635
01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:54,120
Speaker 13: office in the office I mentioned before, the Formal and

1636
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:56,880
Speaker 13: Influence Center, these are highly classified efforts that exist on

1637
01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 13: what's called the high side, so they have special skifts

1638
01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 13: where they're talking about things.

1639
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:01,920
Speaker 4: There's a culture of secrecy.

1640
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:04,439
Speaker 13: When I reported initially on the Department of Homelan Security,

1641
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:07,559
Speaker 13: most of that stuff is unclassified. So in DHS there's

1642
01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:12,000
Speaker 13: almost half a dozen counterdisinformation and it is established since

1643
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:13,720
Speaker 13: twenty sixteen, So that gives you an idea.

1644
01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:16,080
Speaker 4: But this is just what we know from dd.

1645
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:17,559
Speaker 13: I'm sure there are more, but it's a lot harder

1646
01:25:17,600 --> 01:25:19,560
Speaker 13: to find, and it's a lot harder to find specifics

1647
01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:20,960
Speaker 13: about what exactly it is that they're doing.

1648
01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 6: And this is a kind of how government works type

1649
01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:27,640
Speaker 6: of situation too, because once something becomes the thing to

1650
01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:32,439
Speaker 6: do within the government, then everybody has to have their

1651
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:37,200
Speaker 6: own office. Like remember how like you're like, wait, the

1652
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:41,960
Speaker 6: post office has a counter terror operator. Yes, Count VI's

1653
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:44,080
Speaker 6: post office, and the post offic was like, hey, there

1654
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:46,160
Speaker 6: was anthrax in the mail, so we got to do

1655
01:25:46,200 --> 01:25:49,160
Speaker 6: our own right, And so if it becomes a thing

1656
01:25:49,320 --> 01:25:51,120
Speaker 6: that you think you can go to Congress and get

1657
01:25:51,160 --> 01:25:53,840
Speaker 6: more funding for and so what clearly I think what

1658
01:25:53,880 --> 01:25:57,400
Speaker 6: you're exposing here is is that there's so much momentum

1659
01:25:57,479 --> 01:25:59,559
Speaker 6: on this side that if you're a bureaucrat who wants

1660
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:04,160
Speaker 6: more fund, actually that's redundant. All bureaucrats want more funding.

1661
01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:06,519
Speaker 6: Then the thing that you need to do is say,

1662
01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:08,600
Speaker 6: we're going to counter disinformation and we're going to do

1663
01:26:08,640 --> 01:26:14,080
Speaker 6: public diplomacy. And here's here's why we are uniquely capable

1664
01:26:14,120 --> 01:26:16,960
Speaker 6: of filling this role. And it's an outrageous that we

1665
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:19,240
Speaker 6: do not yet have our own office that is directed

1666
01:26:19,280 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 6: in this fashion.

1667
01:26:20,160 --> 01:26:21,960
Speaker 7: Well, and if I could add on to that, turning

1668
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:24,240
Speaker 7: it over to you Ken that this is all coming

1669
01:26:24,280 --> 01:26:25,000
Speaker 7: in the context.

1670
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:26,439
Speaker 3: I mean just in the last couple of weeks.

1671
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:28,599
Speaker 7: We talked about the Durham Report earlier, which even the

1672
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:30,960
Speaker 7: FBI has conceded in a tweet that it posted this

1673
01:26:31,040 --> 01:26:33,479
Speaker 7: week it already, you know, sort of handled the errors.

1674
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 7: That's their claim that were uncovered in the Durham Report.

1675
01:26:36,080 --> 01:26:38,360
Speaker 7: But basically it's a concession that things went wrong, that

1676
01:26:38,439 --> 01:26:42,920
Speaker 7: the intelligence was not handled properly. January sixth, The intelligence

1677
01:26:43,080 --> 01:26:46,479
Speaker 7: was not handled property properly, the CIA involvement in the

1678
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:49,400
Speaker 7: fifty one officials of the Hunter Biden laptop letter that

1679
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 7: was false intelligence as well, that was intelligence spreading false information.

1680
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:56,360
Speaker 7: And so they use all of these things. I'm assuming

1681
01:26:56,479 --> 01:26:59,160
Speaker 7: in your reporting you've realized this. It seems as though

1682
01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:01,400
Speaker 7: they're using all of these things to say, we need

1683
01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:04,639
Speaker 7: more power because things are you know, there's just such

1684
01:27:04,640 --> 01:27:08,320
Speaker 7: a need for strong intelligence. We need more resources, we

1685
01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:12,800
Speaker 7: need more offices, more bureaucrats, despite the fact that what

1686
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:14,960
Speaker 7: we're seeing is actually just their system is broken.

1687
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:18,120
Speaker 13: Yeah, it's alway a quibono kind of thing, like when

1688
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:21,760
Speaker 13: you have this sort of hysteria around things, you know

1689
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:24,040
Speaker 13: who benefits, and it's often the national security state.

1690
01:27:24,080 --> 01:27:25,479
Speaker 4: They take full advantage of these things.

1691
01:27:25,479 --> 01:27:27,920
Speaker 13: I mean, the elevation of the of the idea of

1692
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:31,160
Speaker 13: falsehoods to a new static disinformation.

1693
01:27:31,600 --> 01:27:32,479
Speaker 4: It is just falsehoods.

1694
01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:35,880
Speaker 13: Why do we need a special national securityized term for that?

1695
01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:38,080
Speaker 13: And I think we're seeing why because then they can

1696
01:27:38,120 --> 01:27:39,800
Speaker 13: go to Congress and say, well, we need to counter

1697
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:42,520
Speaker 13: the national but an encounter the threat vicious cycles.

1698
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:45,479
Speaker 6: As these offices proliferate, they're going to then be in

1699
01:27:45,520 --> 01:27:47,599
Speaker 6: competition with each other for Congression.

1700
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:49,559
Speaker 4: That's why they're leaking. That's why they're leaking to.

1701
01:27:49,439 --> 01:27:52,559
Speaker 6: Me In power, and they're going to start, uh spreading

1702
01:27:52,560 --> 01:27:56,840
Speaker 6: disinformation about each other like they absolutely.

1703
01:27:57,240 --> 01:27:57,880
Speaker 4: So that's where we're at.

1704
01:27:58,000 --> 01:27:59,800
Speaker 13: The previous one, the fm I C that that I

1705
01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:02,760
Speaker 13: we're on came on to discuss with you guys what

1706
01:28:02,840 --> 01:28:06,080
Speaker 13: a week ago. That's just to orchestrate and coordinate between

1707
01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:08,479
Speaker 13: all the various They don't even handle anything internal. This

1708
01:28:08,560 --> 01:28:10,880
Speaker 13: is to this is like a top level effort to

1709
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:15,080
Speaker 13: manage everything else. So it's like it never ends, you know,

1710
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:18,200
Speaker 13: and the secrecy is just a windfall for them because

1711
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:20,160
Speaker 13: we're in the context of this debate about like cutting

1712
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:22,400
Speaker 13: food stamps and how we're going to save money, and

1713
01:28:22,479 --> 01:28:25,839
Speaker 13: there's these multimillion dollar agencies. Nobody, the DoD is completely

1714
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:27,200
Speaker 13: exempt from this disc I mean we can have a

1715
01:28:27,200 --> 01:28:29,519
Speaker 13: discussion like if you you know, certain number of people

1716
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:31,600
Speaker 13: want to reduce the size of government. Okay, it's like,

1717
01:28:31,760 --> 01:28:34,480
Speaker 13: but shouldn't we talk about this eight hundred billion dollar

1718
01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:37,480
Speaker 13: colossus and it is completely out of the discussion.

1719
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:38,600
Speaker 3: That's a great point.

1720
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:40,960
Speaker 6: Well, I'm sure we'll have came back next week to

1721
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:42,839
Speaker 6: talk about it.

1722
01:28:41,560 --> 01:28:46,400
Speaker 7: They're just like popping up like eastere Ken, thank you

1723
01:28:46,439 --> 01:28:48,880
Speaker 7: so much. You can check out Ken's story obviously over

1724
01:28:48,960 --> 01:28:52,439
Speaker 7: on the intercept. We will be back next Wednesday with

1725
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:53,640
Speaker 7: more counterpoints.

1726
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:55,200
Speaker 3: We're really looking forward to the new studio.

1727
01:28:55,240 --> 01:28:58,240
Speaker 7: We keep seeing teasers of it from Mac and Griffin

1728
01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:00,000
Speaker 7: and man it looks cool.

1729
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:02,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's gonna be good. It's gonna be right over there.

1730
01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:04,840
Speaker 3: It's gonna be right over there. It's coming soon too, So.

1731
01:29:05,040 --> 01:29:08,240
Speaker 4: We'll keep the bricks for like the tours that we give.

1732
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:10,200
Speaker 3: Right just for the nostalgia.

1733
01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:13,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, all right, well, we'll be back next week with

1734
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:15,439
Speaker 7: more counterpoints. Thank you so much for tuning in. We'll

1735
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:15,920
Speaker 7: see you then.

1736
01:29:19,120 --> 01:29:19,160
Speaker 12: H