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Speaker 1: Y'all. There are times in this business where your heart

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Speaker 1: just gets pulled in and tonight is one of those times.

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Speaker 1: We have the opportunity to hear from a victim and

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Speaker 1: her sheriff while they talk about the incident that bonded them,

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Speaker 1: bonded them like battle buddies. We have Kathy Kleiner and

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Speaker 1: the former Leon County Sheriff Ken Cassaris. It is an

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Speaker 1: absolute honor for me to welcome both of them, and

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Speaker 1: I want to tell you a little bit about the sheriff.

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Speaker 1: I know y'all know Kathy Kleiner. She was in the

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Speaker 1: last episode, but the sheriff was elected in nineteen seventy six.

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Speaker 1: He trained as an officer. He was later a teacher.

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Speaker 1: He has great skills in forensics. He taught college and

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Speaker 1: started a criminal justice program. Sheriff Casaris stood in front

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Speaker 1: of the house on Jefferson Street and listened to the

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Speaker 1: details of this unspeakable, unimaginable, horrific crime. He took the

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Speaker 1: reins of this investigation. There was a team. There was

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Speaker 1: an unbelievable team, professional team, more than one agency involved.

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Speaker 1: But don't make the mistake of who was in charge.

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Speaker 1: He had people describing the scene to him. He heard

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Speaker 1: all of it, and then he heard there was more

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Speaker 1: than one victim, two that survived for now, two that

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Speaker 1: were already deceased. He saw Kathy Kleiner that night, he

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Speaker 1: watched her get loaded and put into an ambulance. He

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Speaker 1: never stopped praying for her. Now, y'all, he's a probe

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Speaker 1: He's a dedicated lawman that refuses to use the word hero,

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Speaker 1: But that's exactly the word I'm going to use. He's

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Speaker 1: a hero in every sense of the word. If there

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Speaker 1: is anybody that you would want in your Zone seven,

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Speaker 1: it's Ken Cassaris. Welcome to Zone seven.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for the invitation to be here. My heart

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Speaker 2: has swelled knowing that Kathy is also talking at the

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Speaker 2: same time. There was a time when I did not

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Speaker 2: know she would survive, much less forty plus years later

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Speaker 2: than I would be talking with her.

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Speaker 1: Well, Sheriff, Let's talk about your role that night. I mean, you,

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Speaker 1: in that moment, had such a chaotic scene, an unimaginable scene,

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Speaker 1: a quadruple attack with four victims, two murdered, and like

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Speaker 1: you said, you didn't know if the others were going

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Speaker 1: to survive in that moment, and you had to take

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Speaker 1: command of the command center, the search for the killer,

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Speaker 1: the forensic evidence. I mean, you had quite an undertaking, sir.

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Speaker 2: Who it was. There's no question, of course that it

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Speaker 2: was a complicated murder case. My first inkling that I

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Speaker 2: had to get involved was when I got a phone

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Speaker 2: call past two thirty in the morning. My Sheriff's office

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Speaker 2: staff in the dispatch room said, Sheriff, we have an

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Speaker 2: attack on young ladies at the Cayomega Sorority tag house

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Speaker 2: on Jefferson Street. And I said, tell me about it.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean that was an attack? He said,

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Speaker 2: somebody went into the house. We don't know whether there's

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Speaker 2: two or four. It looks like there's going to be

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Speaker 2: potentially for murder cases. Tallahassee had not had a serious

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Speaker 2: crime like that, Although you know, I hate to say typical. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: we've learned that crimes are going to occur, and you're

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Speaker 2: going to have shootings, and you're going to have beatings,

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Speaker 2: you're going to have rapes, and I don't want to

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Speaker 2: say that they're necessarily isolated, but they are not of

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Speaker 2: the big nature like massive kind of attacks like this,

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Speaker 2: mass attacks. We didn't know if it was mass murder

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Speaker 2: or not. The last one was in nineteen sixty six

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Speaker 2: in Tallahassee, where the superintendent of Florida's school system. He

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Speaker 2: his wife, and twelve year old daughter were attacked, murdered

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Speaker 2: in their home, shot after being tied up and stabbed.

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Speaker 2: Nineteen sixty six was the year I moved to Tallahansee

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Speaker 2: and I was at a football game when it occurred,

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Speaker 2: and I had heard about it. I had just finished

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Speaker 2: serving four years as a police officer in Saint Petersburg

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Speaker 2: at that time, so I became very interested in that case.

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Speaker 2: And Tallahassee was going berserk. People were, I mean, blocks

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Speaker 2: were not to be found, screen door locks, interior door locks,

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Speaker 2: dead bolts were replaced, sliding locks were put on top

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Speaker 2: of the dead bolts. It just, I mean, the town

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Speaker 2: freaked out in a sense over that murder case. So

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Speaker 2: you can imagine fast forward now to nineteen seventy eight

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Speaker 2: and January and all of a sudden, I'm hearing now

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Speaker 2: I'm the sheriff. Then I was the department chair of

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Speaker 2: Criminal Justice at what is now called Tallahasee State College.

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Speaker 2: It was Tallahassee Community College. But I remembered that case.

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Speaker 2: It never left my mind, and now I was called

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Speaker 2: to thirty plus in the morning when this attack occurred,

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Speaker 2: and I quickly dressed and made my way to the

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Speaker 2: university and to the front of the Cayomega House and

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Speaker 2: jumped out and I met my chief deputy and the

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Speaker 2: Captain of detectives and who was also an attorney and

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Speaker 2: the legal advisor for the department. I met with some

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Speaker 2: Tallahassee police officers and FSU police officer. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: there was already an officer, a detective that had gone

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Speaker 2: in and had reviewed the circumstances, had called for EMS

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Speaker 2: the Emergency Medical System ambulances were dispatched, and I was

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Speaker 2: being brought to up to date, and I was being

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Speaker 2: informed about the status of each of the rooms. The

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Speaker 2: young ladies that were attacked. At the time, they indicated

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Speaker 2: to me, I don't think any of them will survive.

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Speaker 2: The injuries, the wounds, the beatings, the blood does not

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Speaker 2: look good. We know there are two that are deceased

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Speaker 2: at this time, and there are two that were you know,

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Speaker 2: we called EMS for And about that time the ambulance

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Speaker 2: has arrived. I saw Karen Chandler and Kathy Kleiner both

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Speaker 2: coming out on gurney's and we were loaded for the hospital.

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Speaker 2: I was stunned. I was heartbroken. I was shocked, not

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Speaker 2: that I hadn't seen crime before, but coming out of

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Speaker 2: a school sorority house, just a university sorority. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it was just too much. I mean, I just couldn't

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Speaker 2: believe it was happening. I said a prayer for Kathy

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Speaker 2: and Karen, and I had hoped, but I looked at

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Speaker 2: them and I didn't know that they would survive. I prayed.

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Speaker 2: I just didn't know. It didn't look good. Later I

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Speaker 2: did check in on them, and it appeared that, you know,

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Speaker 2: they were able to have pulse and life, and although

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Speaker 2: they looked like it would be a long time for

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Speaker 2: rehabilitation and surgeries and efforts to pull them back together,

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Speaker 2: so to speak, from the massive injuries that were inflicted

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Speaker 2: upon them. So I was briefed on everything that they knew.

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Speaker 2: There was a door that apparently was an entrance that

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Speaker 2: was not the front door. It was a side door.

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Speaker 2: We don't know. I'm not going to say it was

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Speaker 2: propped open. That happens often in sorority houses, where the

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Speaker 2: doors are propped open so the ladies either can come

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Speaker 2: in late, or sometimes they have boys slip in afterwards.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, these are all things that shouldn't happen,

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Speaker 2: but after all, this is college life, and things like

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Speaker 2: that do happen. We also thought that it's possible that

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Speaker 2: the lock could have been worked on and picked because

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Speaker 2: at the time the locks were more let's say, easier

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Speaker 2: to handle, even with a credit card to slide them

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Speaker 2: back and open the doors. They don't make locks like

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Speaker 2: that anymore, and these were older locks. So how he

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Speaker 2: got in we didn't know. But I was briefed about

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Speaker 2: the door. I was briefed about the fact that we

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Speaker 2: had an eyewitness that was coming in late, perhaps through

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Speaker 2: that same door, I'm not sure, but she was tiptoeing

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Speaker 2: through when all of a sudden she saw a male

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Speaker 2: figure coming down the stairway. She got a very good

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Speaker 2: look at him. He apparently did not see her, and

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Speaker 2: he was carrying a pretty big chunk of a limb

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Speaker 2: of a tree, and he had something white wrapped around it,

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Speaker 2: like a towel or t shirt or something, as if

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Speaker 2: he was either aware he needed something to make certain

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Speaker 2: he could hang on to it with tension, or he

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Speaker 2: didn't want to leave any DNA on the wood or something.

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Speaker 2: We didn't collect DNA. Then we did collect, of course,

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Speaker 2: sweat what have you for blood typing, but he and

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Speaker 2: he was aware of blood typing as a matter of fact,

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Speaker 2: because we had an incident later in the jail where

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Speaker 2: he thought we were trying to obtain his blood type,

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Speaker 2: but we couldn't collect things from him without a warrant.

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Speaker 2: But he did say that he wondered why he was

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Speaker 2: getting so many pieces of fruit. He thought we were

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Speaker 2: trying to get a blood type. I got briefed on

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Speaker 2: everything and I was brought up to date, and I

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Speaker 2: did not go in at that time because as a

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Speaker 2: professional sheriff with the education and law enforcement background I

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Speaker 2: had being department chair for ten years prior teaching it forensics,

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Speaker 2: advanced forensics, Criminal investigation, Advanced criminal Investigation, I knew better

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Speaker 2: than to go inside. I didn't have a role inside

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Speaker 2: the Cairomega house. And we teach and preach if you

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Speaker 2: don't have something you're going to do, don't go in

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Speaker 2: because what's called transfer evidence. I could bring in on

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Speaker 2: my shoes, something that could taint the scene, or drop

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Speaker 2: some threads or something off of my clothing. Everything was

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Speaker 2: important so the least number of people in the scene

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Speaker 2: the better. So I stood outside and started direct I

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Speaker 2: turned to my chief deputy and my Captain of detectives,

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Speaker 2: and I said, tonight we are going to set up

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Speaker 2: a major crime squad for this investigation. I turned to

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Speaker 2: Jack Pottinger, who was my lead investigator, captain of investigations

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Speaker 2: and an attorney, and I said, you will be in

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Speaker 2: charge pulling together the major crime squad. We the Leon

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Speaker 2: County Sheriff's Office will be the lead agency. I want

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Speaker 2: you to bring in the FSU Campus Police, the Tallahassee Police,

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Speaker 2: the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, the Florida A and

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Speaker 2: M Police. We want to make sure, if necessary, even

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Speaker 2: the Florida Highway Patrol. And we did end up using

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Speaker 2: the recruit class from the Florida Highway Patrol to search

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Speaker 2: for evidence. I called the colonel and asked him if

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Speaker 2: he would dismiss the recruit class of fifty five new

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Speaker 2: recruit roots for the Florida Highway Patrol to do a

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Speaker 2: crime scene search. I was their instructor at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I taught them crime scenes the week before, so

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Speaker 2: I knew that this Highway Patrol class knew how to

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Speaker 2: handle crime scenes. So I called the colonel, got them

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Speaker 2: dismissed from class, and they were assigned to me to

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Speaker 2: do crime scene search. And they did it grid by

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Speaker 2: grid by grid, very carefully. We were looking for that

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Speaker 2: piece of wood, of course, but Ted Bundy was smarter

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Speaker 2: than we were in a sense. He got that wood

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Speaker 2: off the woodpile. It was January and cold when he left,

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Speaker 2: he threw it back on the woodpile. Were convinced, and

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Speaker 2: in the morning, the first things the sororities and fraternities

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Speaker 2: do is they start fires, and of course the wood

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Speaker 2: on top gets burned first. So we're sure that the

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Speaker 2: wood that was used to beat Kathy, Karen and the

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Speaker 2: victims in this case, Margaret and Lisa. We were sure

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Speaker 2: that the evidence was gone as far as that piece

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Speaker 2: of wood. But that's what happened that night. That was

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Speaker 2: the beginning. That was how I took charge, and from

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Speaker 2: there it got more complicated.

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Speaker 1: Well, sir, I think at this moment what I would

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Speaker 1: love to do is I want to bring Kathy in

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Speaker 1: because something that is just extraordinary to me is how

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Speaker 1: she felt about you that night. So you're talking about

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Speaker 1: somebody only twenty years old that's had a traumatic, horrific event,

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Speaker 1: and seeing you she had an immediate reaction. So, Kathy,

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Speaker 1: would you please join us, and I just want you

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Speaker 1: to talk directly to Ken for a minute.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I would love to Ken. I don't remember seeing

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Speaker 3: you that night, but I remember hearing about you, and

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Speaker 3: in my room in the hospital, your name kept coming up,

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Speaker 3: and I felt so safe knowing someone in such a

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Speaker 3: high position was really involved in what had happened to me,

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Speaker 3: and how involved you were that finding this person and

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Speaker 3: securing FSU and making sure that I was going to

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Speaker 3: be okay. And I remember in my hospital room there

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Speaker 3: was a police officer that stood outside the door and

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Speaker 3: he made me feel so safe. It felt like he

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Speaker 3: was just protecting me. And I knew I wasn't going

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Speaker 3: to get hit again. I knew whomever did this was

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Speaker 3: not going to come back into my room and hurt me.

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Speaker 3: And your police officers were wonderful, they really were. They

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Speaker 3: just they were so good at their job and they

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Speaker 3: did it and I always felt comfortable with them. And

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Speaker 3: I'd like to thank you for having such a good

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Speaker 3: group of men that was and women that were working

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Speaker 3: for you.

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Speaker 2: Well. Thank you for feeling that way, but you know,

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Speaker 2: if it's done right, that's what you do. You protect

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Speaker 2: the innocent, you protect the victims. We assigned deputies to

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Speaker 2: be at your door and to let no one in,

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Speaker 2: not the press, not other law enforcement officers. We didn't

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Speaker 2: want you interrogated or interviewed. You know. We let doctors

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Speaker 2: and nurses that were going to tend to you each

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Speaker 2: were asked what they were going to do before they

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Speaker 2: could go in, because we didn't want even the medical

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Speaker 2: staff to be curiosity seekers to find out what was

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Speaker 2: going on. It was most important that you had your privacy.

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Speaker 2: It was most important that you had all the care

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Speaker 2: that you could get, and it was very important that

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Speaker 2: your strength be kept for the purpose of helping us

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Speaker 2: when you were capable of it. I was praying for

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Speaker 2: divine intervention and that you know, I would get the

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Speaker 2: word that the two of you who went to the

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Speaker 2: hospital that we weren't you know, confirmed at the scene,

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Speaker 2: were already deceased, but that you would, you know, one day,

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Speaker 2: be able to talk about it and be healed and

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Speaker 2: back to your life. I know that it transformed you.

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Speaker 2: It didn't leave you as you were before. Because an

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Speaker 2: incident like that never would. But thank you. We just

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Speaker 2: did our job no more. And that's just what should

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Speaker 2: be done, no matter who it is, no matter where

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Speaker 2: they are, you just just should get that kind of care.

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Speaker 2: And I cared and they should care, and I believe

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Speaker 2: that everybody does. Sometimes there's confusion and sometimes things fall through,

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Speaker 2: but I was going to make certain it didn't. Let

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Speaker 2: me tell you one of the reasons why I thought

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Speaker 2: about all of you at home. I had a daughter

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Speaker 2: that was born December the fourteenth, nineteen seventy seven, and

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Speaker 2: this occurred December the fifteenth, nineteen seventy eight. She was

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Speaker 2: a month and a day old. I had a daughter

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Speaker 2: that was two years old, born in November. The first

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Speaker 2: one was Natalie. The older girl was Monica. When I

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Speaker 2: went to the morgue to look at Margaret and Lisa,

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Speaker 2: and they were on a big marble slab. Because I

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Speaker 2: was going to do this investigation myself, I had been

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Speaker 2: involved in the first serial murder case in Saint Petersburg's history.

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Speaker 2: We had five elderly women, all over eighty at that time,

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Speaker 2: attacked and strangled with their pantyhose and killed in their homes.

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Speaker 2: They were all single, living alone and I worked all

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Speaker 2: those crime scenes, and I ended up finding myself personally

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Speaker 2: who did it through fingerprints, because I did the fingerprint

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Speaker 2: analysis in comparison. So I had already solved one serial case,

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Speaker 2: and I knew how complex they could be. I worked

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Speaker 2: all those crime scenes, so I was aware. But I

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Speaker 2: went to investigate the bodies myself. I didn't trust the doctors.

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Speaker 2: I didn't trust the other investigators. I just felt like

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Speaker 2: I had more experience than they did. And when I

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Speaker 2: reviewed the bodies, two things. Number one was I obviously

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Speaker 2: saw the mutilated breasts of Margaret, and I saw the

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Speaker 2: mutilation somewhat of the breast of Lisa. But I also

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Speaker 2: saw a very good bite impression on Lisa's buttocks. And

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Speaker 2: it was not just a normal bite mark. It was

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Speaker 2: a double bite. In other words, he opened his mouth

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Speaker 2: very wide, came down on the buttocks, and bit hard,

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Speaker 2: not hard enough to draw blood, but hard enough to

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Speaker 2: bruise really well. And then he opened his mouth and

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Speaker 2: came back again and did a double But I believed

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Speaker 2: from that moment that I saw that that was a signature.

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Speaker 2: Now I learned later that we never had a warm

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Speaker 2: body to evaluate anywhere in the country. From Ted Bundy.

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Speaker 2: But I learned that because of what I saw, he

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Speaker 2: was putting his signature on the crime scene. And the

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Speaker 2: other thing that went through my mind was I looked

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Speaker 2: at these two girls twenty and twenty one, I believe

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Speaker 2: they were, and I thought, easily, those could be my daughters,

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Speaker 2: my two little girls, one month old Natalie and two

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Speaker 2: year old Monica. I said, what if they were my daughters?

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Speaker 2: I said to myself, what would you want the sheriff

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Speaker 2: to do? And I knew because I could instruct myself

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Speaker 2: because I was thinking, those are my daughters. What am

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Speaker 2: I telling them to do? Basically, if I didn't have

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Speaker 2: knowledge of law enforcement, I would be telling them, please

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Speaker 2: do everything and anything possible. You go beyond the budget,

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Speaker 2: get all the help, get everybody and anything that you

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Speaker 2: can in line to take care of this and take

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Speaker 2: this monster off the street. So I was committed because

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Speaker 2: I was having flashbacks that my two daughters could be

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Speaker 2: there on that slab and that Morgan. I couldn't take it.

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Speaker 2: I just said, this is my job, and this is

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Speaker 2: going to be my job. I won't let loose of it.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to allow this person to escape because

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Speaker 2: as a parent, that's what I would want the sheriff

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Speaker 2: to do. And I said, I'm the sheriff and I

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Speaker 2: can do it, because well, obviously as a sherifter, there's

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Speaker 2: nobody tell me I can't. The very next morning, I

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Speaker 2: went to Saint Thomas Moore Co Cathedral, which is where

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Speaker 2: Governor asked you of the state of Florida attends church.

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Speaker 2: I waited for him outside. He came out of church

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Speaker 2: when the service was over, saw me, came to me.

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Speaker 2: He was a big, strapping man and a statesman that

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Speaker 2: we don't have anymore in our politics. It doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: like but he was a real statesman. Put his arm

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Speaker 2: around me and said, Sheriff, what can I do for you?

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Speaker 2: I said, Governor, I want you to clear a pathway

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Speaker 2: for me at the Florida Department of Law Enforcement Crime

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Speaker 2: Lab and through your office. I want the power of

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Speaker 2: the Governor's office to help me get what I need,

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Speaker 2: be it resources, manpower, equipment, money, whatever it takes. And

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Speaker 2: he said, Sheriff, you have my word, and if you

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Speaker 2: don't get cooperation from the state in any way, shape

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Speaker 2: or form, you call me personally and I will make

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Speaker 2: certain that you get whatever you need. And I had

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Speaker 2: that commitment. I also met with Chief Justice Jimmy Adkins

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Speaker 2: of the Florida Supreme Court, and he was a friend

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Speaker 2: of mine. He and his wife both were friends. And

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Speaker 2: I met with him on a Sunday in his office

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Speaker 2: at the Supreme Court Building, and I asked him to

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Speaker 2: help me. And at the time I didn't think about it,

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Speaker 2: and neither did he, because I was asking for advice

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Speaker 2: from the highest court in Florida. And who knows, it

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Speaker 2: may get appealed, you know, later conviction or something, and

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Speaker 2: he may have to rule on it. And in the

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Speaker 2: middle of our conversation, he says, yeah, he's legs kicked

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Speaker 2: up on his desk and sitting back. He said, oh

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Speaker 2: my god. And I said what he says, Ken, you

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Speaker 2: realize I have to recruise myself now if this case

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Speaker 2: comes before me. I said, well, I said, let's hope

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Speaker 2: we have a case to come before you. I said,

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Speaker 2: I sure need your help. So I was stretching it.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to get all the help I could. I

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Speaker 2: knew I needed resources, I needed to lead legal minds.

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Speaker 2: I needed the power of the office of the Governor.

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Speaker 2: And all that came from the night where I investigated

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Speaker 2: the two bodies and the commitment I made to the parents.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, both Margaret and Lisa were from

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Speaker 2: Saint Petersburg and I was a Saint Petersburg comp and

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Speaker 2: an investigator, and that's where I saw the crime. I

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Speaker 2: couldn't believe it. It was like, is this can this

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Speaker 2: be possible? A sheriff in Tallahassee encountering two victims from

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Speaker 2: Saint Petersburg, And you know, I made certain, of course,

359
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Speaker 2: the proper communications were made to the family as well.

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00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 2: So it was it's broken into pieces. It was at

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Speaker 2: the crime scene, then it was at the morgue, then

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Speaker 2: it was at the Saint Thomas more Co Cathedral with

363
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Speaker 2: the governor, then it was at the Supreme Court building.

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Speaker 2: I was moving, I was moving fast, and I got

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Speaker 2: to tell you a lot of law enforcement was wondering.

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Speaker 2: They had never seen, you know, a sheriff number one

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Speaker 2: leading an investigation, because it's always you know, a sergeant

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Speaker 2: or someone in the investigative ranks. And they had never

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Speaker 2: seen someone going to the governor and the Chief Justice

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Speaker 2: of the Supreme Court, you know, and handling a file

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Speaker 2: as I was. So there was some criticism of me

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Speaker 2: but I was a big boy, and I said, you know,

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Speaker 2: criticism of me is not what this is about. They

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Speaker 2: can criticize me all they want. I want the person

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Speaker 2: did this to pay with his life, if it's possible,

376
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Speaker 2: through the justice system criticism.

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Speaker 1: This sounds like the greatest investigation I've ever seen. I

378
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: have a mantra, and my mantra is every test on

379
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Speaker 1: every case, every time you use everything you've got, and

380
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Speaker 1: if you don't have it and somebody else does, go

381
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Speaker 1: ask them for it. What I am hearing is such

382
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Speaker 1: an extraordinary boots on the ground, just crawling and scrapping

383
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Speaker 1: to get everything you need from everybody you can get

384
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Speaker 1: it from. And nobody told you know, which is equally

385
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: extraordinary because as a twenty year old Kathy, did you

386
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Speaker 1: know this was even happening that he was going to

387
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: these links for you at the time, praying for you

388
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: every day, going to the governor, going to the Supreme Court,

389
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Speaker 1: going to everybody he could and every single agency that

390
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Speaker 1: he could.

391
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Speaker 3: I didn't know at the time. Excuse me, I was

392
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 3: recovering on a big basis. But I'm not surprised because

393
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 3: of all all he has shown me, but all he

394
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 3: has done for us, for the families, and in the

395
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,479
Speaker 3: background kind of in my mind, I was good that

396
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 3: this is going to be taken care of. This guy

397
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 3: is not going to get away, and that kid's in

398
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 3: charge of it.

399
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Speaker 1: And then Sheriff Casaris, you didn't stop there. Once he

400
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: was captured and you had him. He didn't escape again.

401
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: No, he didn't escape again. It was interesting, of course

402
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: I let him stay in Pensacola. When he was first arrested.

403
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: He was arrested in the stolen Volkswagen from nearby the

404
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: Cayamega Sorority House, and you know, Ted Bundy was take

405
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: me out of the picture for a minute. I was

406
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: the investigation. I wasn't the officer that used good old

407
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 2: as they call a shoe leather and practical police patrol procedures.

408
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: But he saw the vehicle going rather slowly and just

409
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: had a hunch it was suspicious, that's all it was.

410
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: Now today we're not allowed to stop a car for that.

411
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: We have to have some type of traffic infraction or crime,

412
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: or reason to believe that a crime has is or

413
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 2: is about to be committed before we can stop a car.

414
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: But at the time this occurred, he could stop a car,

415
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: just on a hunch and to talk to the person,

416
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 2: and he did. He just felt like this didn't look

417
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: right for some reason. He switched his interior radio to

418
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 2: his light bar on top of his car where the

419
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 2: speaker was for his PA system, and he approached the car.

420
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 2: After he stopped it, he called in the license plate

421
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: and as he's talking to Ted Bundy in the car,

422
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: the license plate came back and it was broadcast over

423
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: the speaker so Ted Bundy could hear it, and it

424
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 2: came back as a stolen vehicle. Ted Bundy jumped out

425
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 2: of the car and ran from him, and the officer

426
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: was one of those patriots. He was a reserve military

427
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 2: member of the Armed Forces and trained on weekends. It

428
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 2: was in good condition and he out ran Ted Bundy

429
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 2: took him down and I think Ted Bundy got the

430
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 2: first beating of his life that night. So much credit

431
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: goes first to the patrol officer that just had a hunch.

432
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: It resolved in a bunch, and I'm not a poet,

433
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: but hunched a bunch, I'll tell you, because it was.

434
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: I mean, it resulted in a lot going on. But

435
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy was brought into the Escambia County jail well

436
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: that night because he was driving a stolen car, and

437
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: he identified himself as Ken Meisner, and Ken Meisner was

438
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 2: a Florida state athlete, a swimmer, and he had his

439
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 2: driver's license and he showed it to him, said he's

440
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 2: Ken Meisner. A resemblance was similar enough. You know, photographs

441
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: weren't that great. That's what they put down. Well, we

442
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 2: got a call from Ken Meisner and he said it

443
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: was put out over the obviously the airwaves that Ken

444
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 2: Meisner was in jail, fsu athlete, a star swimmer. He said, Hey,

445
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: I'm not in Pensacola. I'm in Tallahansee and I didn't

446
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 2: do anything. And I don't know who you got, but

447
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: it's not me. He said, I will tell you that

448
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: while I was practicing, my wallet was stolen, and so

449
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: somebody has my ID, and I think that's what this is.

450
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: You know, at the time, things were very open, very loose.

451
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: Security was weak. We didn't lock our lockers, we didn't

452
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: lock our doors. Tallahassee had just gotten over the nineteen

453
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: sixty six murder, mass murder of a family in their home,

454
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 2: and we were finally calming down from nineteen sixty six.

455
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: Now to nineteen seventy eight, and you know things were

456
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 2: somewhat getting back to normal, but you know again the

457
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 2: doors were unlocked and cars weren't locked, and lockers weren't locked.

458
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: So now we have somebody who is knocked Ken Meisner

459
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: and we don't know who it is. Eventually, Ted Bundy

460
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: said to the people in the Pensacola jail, the Escambia

461
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: County Jail, he said, you don't know who you have

462
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: in custody. They said, really, who are you? And I

463
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: want to remind you that at the time you had

464
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: to take fingerprints on a card. You took all the

465
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: fingers and two thumbs and then you would mail that

466
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: to the FBI. The FBI would get it, it would

467
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: go into the stack for fingerprint identification, and then they

468
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: would classify the fingerprints. Then they would come back and

469
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: tell us who it was. Today, it's done in a

470
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: matter of seconds on the scene in a patrol car

471
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: called aphis afis Automated Fingerprint Identification system. You just roll

472
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: one finger onto it and it goes immediately into supercomputers

473
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: and it comes back and tells you everything you want

474
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: to know about the person, if they've ever been fingerprinted before,

475
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: but we didn't have that. He said, well, I'll tell

476
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: you who I am. I'm somebody that you're probably going

477
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: to be interested in. I want to talk to an

478
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: investigator from Tallahassee, and I want to talk to a priest.

479
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: When he did that, in combination with the Volkswagen nearby,

480
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 2: the Cayomega house was stolen, I was in Saint Petersburg

481
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: the time, and I got a call my chief Deputy,

482
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: Leonard Turrito. Doctor Leonard Tarto said, Sheriff, if I had

483
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 2: to tell you to get back to Tallahassee as quickly

484
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 2: as you can, what would you want the reason to be.

485
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: Did we arrest somebody for the ky Omega case? He said,

486
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 2: it's possible. We've got somebody driving a stolen car who

487
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 2: won't tell us who he is. We haven't identified him,

488
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: and he's asking for an investigator from Tallahassee, and he's

489
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: asking for a priest. I got on my radio. I

490
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 2: was in my unmarked Sheriff's patrol car in Saint Petersburg,

491
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: and I got on my radio, my statewide frequency, and

492
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: I told all the law enforcement agencies and the Florida

493
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 2: Highway Patrol to look out for our white nineteen seventy

494
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: seven Ford four door Crown Victoria. I said, I'm going

495
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 2: to be coming with a red light on my dashboard

496
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 2: through all the communities from Saint Petersburg to Tallahassee. And

497
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: I did it. I did it very fast. I went

498
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 2: as quickly as I possibly could. Obviously there was no

499
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: air service. So I got back to Tallahassee and immediately

500
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: took charge of what was going on, sending investigators over

501
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: to the Escambia jail. And they told me what they

502
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: encountered and what the individual was like. And he ended

503
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: up saying, my name is Ted Bundy. That's all I'm

504
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: going to tell you, And were you involved in the

505
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: Kyomega murders and assaults and batteries and beatings? And he says,

506
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: I'm not saying anything else. So they told me and

507
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: then they said that he would talk to them, and

508
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: I said, great, see what he'll say. And they came

509
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: back and said, sure, if we've got a problem, he said,

510
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: what's the problem. He only wants to talk to us

511
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 2: straight up at midnight, and he only wants to talk

512
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: to us in front of a window, and he only

513
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: wants to talk to us when the moon is full.

514
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 2: I said what, and he said, yep, that's what we

515
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: got on our hands. So I said, well, make sure

516
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 2: the window is locked and that he's handcuffed and leg

517
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 2: shackled and talked to him. So he started his I

518
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,919
Speaker 2: don't want to be crass, but I'm going to say

519
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: at his bs and that's what it was. He now

520
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: was in his element. It's almost what he was living for,

521
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 2: was to start being Ted Bundy the lawyer. He was

522
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy the student, he was Ted Bundy the killer,

523
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 2: he was Ted Bundy the monster. He was now Ted

524
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: Bundy the lawyer. And he was going to show these

525
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 2: police officers how smart they are so to speak, if

526
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So he was giving them

527
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: a tough time. They called me and said, we're getting nowhere.

528
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: We're bringing him to the full moon in front of

529
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 2: the window, and you know we're getting nowhere. He's just ridiculous.

530
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 2: And I said, okay, you tell him that he's coming

531
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 2: back to the Leon County Jail and there will be

532
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 2: no more fooling around. We played his game. I said,

533
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 2: he's going to start playing by my rules from now on.

534
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: I think that was a headline in the Democrat and

535
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy was transferred back and I was waiting for him.

536
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: There's video tape that has been shown widely of me

537
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 2: receiving him at the jail. When he was driven up.

538
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: He had a big mold on his face, a little dishevel.

539
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 2: They had on a sweater, hair was a little messed up,

540
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: and he had partial growth of a beard. I grabbed

541
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: it arm when he got out of the car and

542
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 2: I said, you're at the Leon County Jail and I'm

543
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 2: the Leon County Sheriff, and I just want you to

544
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 2: know you're not going anywhere from here. We brought him in,

545
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 2: we talked to him, and I brought him up to

546
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 2: a cell that we had that was steel lined with

547
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 2: armor proof steel ceilings, walls, and floor, and it was

548
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: a slammer door, which is a solid steel door with

549
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 2: a small window and a port for putting food inside.

550
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 2: We had two additional locks on the door, so it

551
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: was three locks. And what I did was I distributed

552
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 2: the keys to three different people on each shift. I

553
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,240
Speaker 2: did not want one person able to open his door.

554
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 2: And I told the shift at the jail, if I

555
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 2: do a check and an inspection and I find all

556
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: three keys in the hands of one person, the whole

557
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: shift will be fired. Because I knew that he was bright.

558
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 2: I mean, that's how he got out of the other

559
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: two jails. They left him in a library all by

560
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 2: himself while the deputy went outside the smoke, and he

561
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 2: jumped out of the window and was gone. So I

562
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: knew that he had the ability to sweep talk people

563
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: and get away with things. He was smart. So he

564
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 2: was in a steel lined cell now that had no

565
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 2: ability to take a lighte fixture down like he did

566
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: in the first jail. He escape from and went up

567
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 2: through the plumbing and air conditioning system and made his

568
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 2: way to an outside opening and jumped out and escaped

569
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: in the first time. But it was steel lined in

570
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: three locks, and I didn't want one person to go

571
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: to the jail door. But I was afraid he would

572
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: talk somebody into it, so I didn't allow it. It

573
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 2: had to have three of my people at the door.

574
00:37:53,239 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: I figured three of mine would handle him.

575
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: Here's what's really cool. I want you to confirm for me.

576
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: You have a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, and doctoral work. Correct.

577
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 2: I have all my doctoral work finished. Let me tell

578
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: you what happened. I don't have the DPA, the Doctor

579
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 2: of Public Administration because of Ted Bundy. Okay, I was

580
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: writing my dissertation. I had completed five years of studies,

581
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: defended my dissertation topic, I passed all my comprehensive exams

582
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 2: and my orals and everything, and I was doing my

583
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: dissertation part time. I mean, I had a little time

584
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: to devote to it, and I would have finished and

585
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: been doctor Kenkassarus. I obviously didn't have time to run

586
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,760
Speaker 2: this investigation and make sure that everything went well twenty

587
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: four hours a day, that he didn't escape, and that

588
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 2: we were collecting and processing the evidence and handling the

589
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 2: major crime squad the way we should, and work on

590
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 2: a dissertation. Frankly, my mind wasn't there. So I waited

591
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 2: until obviously I was out of office. Ted Bundy was

592
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 2: at the prison, and I went back to the school,

593
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 2: Novah University, and I said I want to re enroll

594
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 2: to complete my dissertation. And they looked at the files

595
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 2: and they said, oh, you can't do that, And I said, what, No,

596
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 2: you've timed out. You had seven years to finish the degree,

597
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 2: and you've gone over that time period. That's because I

598
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: put it aside. So I didn't get my doctorate, but

599
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: I got my serial killer. And frankly, I would not

600
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: trade ever a degree. I have the course of studies.

601
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 2: That's why I list my background as DPA with an

602
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: ABD after it, which means all but dissertation.

603
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: But that's what I find extraordinary because everybody says, oh,

604
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy was so smart, he was such a genius

605
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: that he picked the wrong lawman.

606
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. I know that he picked the

607
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 2: wrong lawman with the commitment. I had a commitment. I'm

608
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 2: confident he's probably smarter than me. I'm confident he has

609
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: more intelligence than me. But he didn't know more about

610
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: law enforcement than me, and he didn't have the power

611
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: that I had because as chief law enforcement officer and

612
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: being elected, nobody could tell me what to do. The

613
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 2: only constraints I had were budget, and that's why I

614
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 2: went to the governor, and that's why I went to

615
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 2: the Chief Justice. I went to the two main power

616
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: sources for the state, and I said, I want your

617
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: help because I need resources, equipment, manpower and budget. But

618
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: one of the first things I did was I went

619
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 2: to a friend of mine named Si Deeb and side.

620
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: Deeb was a philanthropist, a very wealthy man in tallahasse

621
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: He still has family here. In fact, one of his

622
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 2: granddaughters was a student of mine at the community college.

623
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 2: And I went to him and I said, you have

624
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 2: a building across from the Tallahassee Police Department, a big

625
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,839
Speaker 2: brick building. It's empty, and it's for sale. I said, Si,

626
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: I want you to give me that building for as

627
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 2: long as I need it, because I want a place

628
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 2: to work out of so that all the law enforcement

629
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: agencies can come together in one place. I don't want

630
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 2: them going to work at the Tallahassee Police Department, the

631
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: Leon County Sheriff's Department, the fam U Campus Police Department,

632
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 2: the FSU Campus Police Department, the Highway Patrol, the Florida

633
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: Department Law Enforcement, and then meeting somewhere at some meeting room.

634
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: I want them to be assigned to this case permanently,

635
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: and I want their new offices to be in one building.

636
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 2: So we drew straws for the placement of the stickers

637
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 2: of our agency, you know, the things to go on

638
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: the side of the car that identify the Leon County

639
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: Sheriff's office or Tallahassee Police Department the agency's logo. So

640
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: we drew straws as to where they should go on

641
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: the front door of this new building. He gave it

642
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 2: to me, and that was the new command post, and

643
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 2: it was bigger than the Tallahassee Police Department, and we

644
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 2: had plenty of rooms. So we set up rooms for

645
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 2: victim investigators, We had rooms for evidence investigators, we had

646
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: rooms for the interview investigators. We had room for those

647
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: that were going to be out of town working and

648
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: those that were going to be in town working. The

649
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: command staff. I mean, I set up a whole nother

650
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 2: police agency made up of all these different agencies, and

651
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 2: then I would pair them by different agencies so that

652
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 2: I didn't have two of the same agency working together

653
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 2: out in the field, because it would be cross pollination.

654
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 2: One would know something the other one didn't know, and

655
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 2: that way there would be no secrets or keeping something

656
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 2: to the side so that maybe later they could you

657
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 2: try to solve the case themselves. So I took away

658
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: that ability, and I made them all believe that they

659
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 2: were working on the same team because they didn't go

660
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 2: to work where they work. They went to work at

661
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: the command post for this serial murder investigation of this

662
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:37,720
Speaker 2: individual that committed this painous, monstrous crime at the Cayomega House,

663
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: and that's where we worked from and that had never

664
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 2: been done as far as I know in Florida ever.

665
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: But it was an idea that I thought would work.

666
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: I wanted anything that would work. I wanted everybody's mind

667
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: in unison. I didn't want them, you know. I didn't

668
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 2: want each individual agency head to be sending different people

669
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 2: and not knowing who's going to show up. I wanted

670
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 2: him assigned. I had offices for them, and it was

671
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: in a free building from a philanthropist, So I think side.

672
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: Kathy, I have a sister, Charlene, who you know, and

673
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: she is a Level one trauma nurse, and often once

674
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: somebody leaves trauma, she never knows what happened to him.

675
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: That's true for detectives and responding officers and prosecutors oftentimes,

676
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: and in your case with the officers that you first

677
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: saw and Ken Cassaris, you know, y'all even had to

678
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: be separated at trial because y'all were all witnesses. Y'all

679
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: couldn't be in the same room and you didn't have

680
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 1: an opportunity to really see him again and talk to him.

681
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 1: So before we close tonight, you take your time and

682
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: just talk directly to him after everything you've heard him

683
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: say tonight, all of his extraordinary work, his groundbreaking way

684
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: of doing an investigation of this magnitude for a serial killer.

685
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 3: Well, I just being at home and recuperating and everything

686
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 3: I knew police work was going on. I knew agencies

687
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 3: were going to work on making sure that this Bundy

688
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 3: person at that point was going to be caught. And

689
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 3: hearing you talk tonight, I am amazed the level of

690
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 3: people you had working for you and whom you started

691
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,720
Speaker 3: as a group that really turned into the best group

692
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 3: because they got ted Bundy. And I'm just amazed at

693
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 3: all the work you did and all the foresight you

694
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 3: had to know what to do and when to do it.

695
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 3: And I appreciate very much, Sheriff. You've been in our

696
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 3: hearts for many years. My parents would talk about you,

697
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 3: and life goes on and I don't have a chance

698
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 3: always to thank the people that mean the most to us,

699
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: and you've always been in that group, And thank you

700
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 3: very much for helping me then and for all these years.

701
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 3: That I have known you, but not been close. I

702
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 3: appreciate your friendship.

703
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 2: Now to say you're welcome is just not enough. It's

704
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: so obligatory in terms of what we say, and it's

705
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 2: almost disingenuine to just say you're welcome from the bottom

706
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: of my heart. From the moment I saw you and

707
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 2: prayed for you, because I didn't know whether you were

708
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 2: alive or dead frankly at the moment, but they were

709
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: taking you out and you weren't confirmed dead, so I

710
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: knew they found a pulse. I prayed that it would

711
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: continue and that your heart would be on. And I'm

712
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 2: so happy that forty plus years later, your heart is

713
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 2: beating on, and so is Cheryl Thomas. I hadn't mentioned Cheryl.

714
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 2: She was a victim at another location the same night

715
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: while we were investing gating the Kyomega case. She was

716
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: in a separate duple like six blocks away. And this

717
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: monster had the ability to attack again with all those

718
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 2: police cars in the area and all the work we

719
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 2: were doing in that area, all the red and blue

720
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 2: lights that were flashing, he you know, he busted in

721
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: on Cheryl Thomas and attacked her as well too. I'll

722
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 2: say the three survivors, Karen and you and Cheryl. I mean,

723
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 2: I just you know, my heart goes out to you,

724
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 2: and you're welcome. Isn't enough to say I did it

725
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: for all humanity. I did it for you. I did

726
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 2: it because law enforcement couldn't fail on this. I feel

727
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: for law enforcement. I'm still in law enforcement, and I

728
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 2: understand that every shariff can't take on a major investigation.

729
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 2: They've got agencies to run. I don't know what drove

730
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 2: me to do this. I was directed by God, I'm sure,

731
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 2: because my message was coming from somewhere. After all, I

732
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 2: was an elected official, and you know I was supposed

733
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 2: to be taking care of everything, and you can't take

734
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 2: care of everything, but the image of my two daughters

735
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 2: and the possibility that that was them on that slab

736
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:22,760
Speaker 2: of marble that night, and I promised that I would

737
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 2: do what I had to do, what parents would expect

738
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 2: from a sheriff, from the surviving daughters, or more from

739
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 2: those that didn't survive, that justice had to be done.

740
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,800
Speaker 2: And you know what we ended up with was, of course,

741
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: an invisible monster. He lived amongst us, and he got

742
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 2: along with everybody. He was charismatic, he was witting he

743
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 2: was funny. I mean, some say he was handsome. I

744
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 2: think at times he was. At times I didn't like

745
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,399
Speaker 2: the way he looked, but when he dressed up, he

746
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 2: was a pretty handsome guy. And he handled himself well.

747
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 2: He smiled through court, and he took advantage of being

748
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 2: his own attorney after firing eighteen attorneys during the time

749
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 2: I had him in custody for two years. He fired

750
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 2: eighteen attorneys because they wouldn't do it his way. And

751
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 2: you know, I just know that law enforcement can't do

752
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: it that way. Every time. There's not enough money, there's

753
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 2: not enough resources, there's not enough budget. The sheriffs have

754
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 2: too much to do. There's too much crime set upon

755
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 2: us today. But at that moment, in that day, at

756
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 2: that location, it had meaning to me. I shut out

757
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 2: all the naysayers. When I found the bite marks on

758
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,479
Speaker 2: Lisa Leivi, my people kind of laughed at me because

759
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 2: I said, this is going to solve the crime. They

760
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 2: had no idea that I had forensic codeontology background and

761
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 2: was teaching bitemark identification. It was so new, wasn't used.

762
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 2: And you may not know this, but forensicode intology had

763
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,760
Speaker 2: never been introduced in the courts anywhere in the world.

764
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 2: This was the first case, so it wasn't easy to

765
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 2: introduce it. Not only that, but I got a search

766
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: warrant for Ted Bundy's mouth. Never in the history of

767
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 2: this country did anybody get a search warrant for a

768
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 2: man's mouth. I needed a search warrant because if I

769
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: went and got a warrant, I'd have to serve it

770
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 2: on his attorneys or him. And then if he chipped

771
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 2: a tooth and there was one anomaly, we couldn't use

772
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 2: his teeth. So you can't have any anomalies because if

773
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: you say, well this isn't consistent, but we don't know

774
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: when it occurred, well goodbye for that evidence, because it's

775
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: not going to work. So I went to the judge

776
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 2: and I said, Judge, I judge justice in this case,

777
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 2: the Chief Justice Supreme Court. And I said, Jimmy, we

778
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 2: need to figure this out. And I don't know whether

779
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: he came up with it or I came up with it,

780
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,959
Speaker 2: but somehow, somebody or jointly we just had the same

781
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 2: idea at the same time. How about a search warrant

782
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 2: for his mouth? You have his bite impressions from the

783
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 2: prison in Salt Lake City where he was serving a

784
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 2: fifteen year sentence when he escaped from the two Colorado

785
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 2: jails where he was being held temporarily for the investigation

786
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 2: of other crimes. I got his dental impressions from the prison,

787
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 2: and with that I could show the court that I

788
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 2: had reason to believe that in his mouth there was

789
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: evidence that would be relevant to the processing of this

790
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 2: scene and that could prove that he was the per

791
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 2: person involved in the case. So they had granted the warrant,

792
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 2: and then they granted a warrant that let me use

793
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 2: force if necessary to remove the bide impressions. So that

794
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: was a whole nother story. Going to the dental office,

795
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,359
Speaker 2: and when he found out that his BikeE marks were

796
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 2: going to be taken his bite impressions because he had

797
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 2: been taunting me. He always told me at least a

798
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 2: dozen times, Ken, Ken, the evidence is there. He called

799
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: me Ken. He liked that. He thought that was demeaning.

800
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 2: He said, Ken, the evidence is there. You just can't

801
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 2: find it. The evidence is there. Well, I want to

802
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 2: tell you, I always thought that he thought the evidence

803
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 2: was the bite impression. And when the doors opened that

804
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 2: my dentist's office where I took him and there was

805
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:36,240
Speaker 2: three dentists, my dentist, a doctor, an internal medicine doctor,

806
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,959
Speaker 2: and doctor Suvaron who did the forensic odetology. I had

807
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 2: confirmed that that's what he was talking about when he

808
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 2: kept harassing me about the evidence was there. Because he

809
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 2: didn't say, what are you going to do? What's this

810
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 2: all about? He started screaming, you can't do this, you

811
00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 2: can't do this. I don't have an attorney. Attorney, and

812
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 2: I said, ted, you can't have an attorney. I'm serving

813
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 2: a warrant on you. That's the end of that. And

814
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 2: he realized that we were going to use force if necessary.

815
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 2: He jumped into the dental chair, looked up at me,

816
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 2: opened his mouth and said, Ken, you know I'm not

817
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 2: a violent person. Do what you have to do.

818
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 3: What a story?

819
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: Well, I do not think that I could thank the

820
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 1: two of y'all anymore for allowing us to hear this

821
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: beautiful friendship. I know that y'all admire each other, you

822
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: respect each other, you adore each other, But this friendship

823
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: is so important. And I think that there's law enforcement

824
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: across the country it's going to be able to hear this,

825
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 1: and perhaps they will reach out to their victim, and

826
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: maybe the victims will reach out to their detectives and

827
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 1: you know they can share those moments too, that this

828
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: is what happened to me that night, this is what

829
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 1: happened to you that night, and we are forever bonded

830
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,959
Speaker 1: because of it. And this was just a beautiful thing.

831
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: Mister Can I got to tell you, I am going

832
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: to drag you into my zone seven. I need you, honey.

833
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: You are just an extraordinary person. And I thank you

834
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: for being with us and sharing your experience when you

835
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 1: called and captured and put in prison Ted Bundy.

836
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: Well thank you. As I spoke. Of course, I put

837
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,919
Speaker 2: myself into the moment, which is why I talked more

838
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 2: than I thought I was going to, because I was

839
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 2: reliving and experience. And I did so for Kathy, especially

840
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:46,800
Speaker 2: since she's here tonight, and certainly you know, for Karen,

841
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:53,320
Speaker 2: for for you know, Lisa and Margaret who did not survive,

842
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 2: and for Cheryl who did. Beautiful women, beautiful lives, you know,

843
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 2: to be termedated so early, or to have been abused

844
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: and attacked in such vicious manner and have to live

845
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 2: with that for their life. At least they did live.

846
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 2: And I know they're making the best of their lives

847
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 2: they can. The psychological impact must be beyond my understanding

848
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:25,439
Speaker 2: of how you can deal with it. I've never had

849
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:29,919
Speaker 2: a bruised eye, much less to go through what any

850
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,439
Speaker 2: of them did, So my heart's out to all of them.

851
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: Ken.

852
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 3: I want to thank you very much. You've always been

853
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 3: special to me. But hearing the background of all the

854
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 3: work you did and getting all the agencies together in

855
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 3: my mind you talking about it, I can see how

856
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 3: you did it.

857
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 1: You spoke so well.

858
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 3: I can see the room with all the agencies put together,

859
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 3: and just to know that you did all that. You

860
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 3: did it for us, but you did it for everyone.

861
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 3: And I appreciate you very much. And I know just

862
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,439
Speaker 3: by saying you're welcome, it's not enough for you to say,

863
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 3: but it means the world to me.

864
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 2: It means the world to me that I have you

865
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:18,799
Speaker 2: and Karen and Cheryl. Thank you. I'm getting choked up

866
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 2: here thinking about it because I'm being brought back to

867
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 2: that night myself. Ted Bundy was captured. He was held

868
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 2: for two years in my jail. He was convicted, he

869
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 2: was sentenced, he lost all of his appeals. He went

870
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 2: to prison. He was only there ten years. I know

871
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 2: that sounds like a long time, but not for death row,

872
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 2: and he was executed. It just simply the only way

873
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 2: I could have gone better is that Ted Bundy was

874
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 2: a decent young man and went out and was dating

875
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 2: and became a terrific lawyer and made a real, you know,

876
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 2: professional out of himself, contributed to life instead of taking life.

877
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 1: Ken Cassaris, thank you so much for being so open

878
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: and so honest about your experience. Thank you for your

879
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: years of service, devotion and dedication to not just your department,

880
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: but all those young people that went on to have

881
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: careers themselves. Kathy Kleiner, my friend, thank you for being

882
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: so open and so honest and taking so much time

883
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 1: to share your story. It is powerful. I love you,

884
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: I adore you, I respect you, and again I thank

885
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: you both. I'm going to end Zone seven the way

886
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 1: that I always do with a quote. Obviously, I was

887
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: very motivated to work the case. I had two young

888
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: daughters at home, and I vowed that this person would

889
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: be stopped. I put everything my heart, my soul, my

890
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: skills to work on it, and together with a big

891
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 1: team of people that came up with Lee needs a

892
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 1: person and eventually a conviction. Ken Cassars. I'm Cheryl McCollum

893
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: and this is Zone seven H