Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Friday Podcast in part two of
Speaker 1: the Bill Coore interview. If you missed Part one, check
Speaker 1: it out on our website, iTunes or Stitcher.
Speaker 2: Thank you to all the listeners who submitted questions.
Speaker 1: While I couldn't get through all of them, I tried
Speaker 1: to touch on them a vast majority throughout the conversation.
Speaker 1: If you're new to the podcast, be sure to subscribe
Speaker 1: to our channel on iTunes and Stitcher. Now here's part
Speaker 1: two of our conversation with Bill Coore.
Speaker 2: I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 3: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 3: And when I find my ball.
Speaker 4: In a Frida Egg Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Friday,
Speaker 4: Friday Frida Friday Bride egg.
Speaker 3: Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course game.
Speaker 5: And uh so to switch gears another side of yours
Speaker 5: when and this is a question from one of our listeners,
Speaker 5: cars on the course or for of course he wanted.
Speaker 2: To asked when he originally finished Warren a Notre Dame.
Speaker 3: Of course there was no.
Speaker 2: Part of the scorecards, and what was the thinking behind that?
Speaker 3: Well, any that that truly is like you know it
Speaker 3: just that came about out of sort of a humorous
Speaker 3: comment that I made. We were just finishing the course,
Speaker 3: and of that there Brian Godfrey, who at the time
Speaker 3: and for quite a number of years after the course opened,
Speaker 3: was the golfer afterview, and Brian need to comment that
Speaker 3: the then golf coach another day questioned how the second
Speaker 3: home could be a part four and the tenth hole
Speaker 3: could be a part five when the second home was
Speaker 3: longer than the tenth in terms of actual yard. Each
Speaker 3: other score right down if you'd played there, you know,
Speaker 3: the second hold flat. He goes out there and it
Speaker 3: was built to be a long for big opening in front.
Speaker 3: Tenth home goes kind of cascaded down that hills, got
Speaker 3: the creek that winds in front of it. There much
Speaker 3: more spear green. So anyway, but Brian was saying, this
Speaker 3: is you know, they said, this has come up more
Speaker 3: than just from the golf coach and we're getting ready
Speaker 3: to open, we're going to apprentice score cards and we're
Speaker 3: good all this stuff. He said, what do you say
Speaker 3: to that? And I went through and why the second
Speaker 3: home and then I saw a flu bumpily just said,
Speaker 3: I said well, brun and does it really matter. I mean,
Speaker 3: it basically is, you're going to play the whole regardless
Speaker 3: of what the par is, and you're gonna put down
Speaker 3: a number after you played it, you know, So what
Speaker 3: difference is it? I said, for that matter, you just
Speaker 3: put no par on the scorecard and no one will
Speaker 3: ever know Ryan he laughed. And the next thing I know,
Speaker 3: they decide, well, let's try this. We'll put it in
Speaker 3: no par on the scorecard. We'll needless to say. You
Speaker 3: can imagine uproar that creating, so that all came out
Speaker 3: of it. Just I wasn't really being serious about don't
Speaker 3: put any par on the score card. But I've seen scorecards,
Speaker 3: you know, and no parum So that's what.
Speaker 5: My whole things. Power doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, it's just
Speaker 5: a Marde guy. So it's a stake a life for fast.
Speaker 3: Well, it's like when we did all that work at
Speaker 3: Planners Number two a few years ago, when Mike Davis
Speaker 3: at USGA. You know, Mike summed it up perfectly because
Speaker 3: there was this discussion going on about changing you know,
Speaker 3: prior to the twenty fourteen opens there, the fourth hole
Speaker 3: had been a part five and the fifth hole was
Speaker 3: a part four, probably the hardest part four in the world.
Speaker 3: And Mike davis idea was, let's make the fourth home
Speaker 3: a really long four because the entrance to the green
Speaker 3: is such so much more receptive from real all four,
Speaker 3: and the green on number five is so severe. Let's
Speaker 3: build a new t for five way back and play
Speaker 3: five as a part five. Well, of course this went
Speaker 3: against things that had happened there in previous US Opens.
Speaker 3: It was quite an internal controversy, but Mike sended up perfectly,
Speaker 3: he said, he said, I promise you, he said, all
Speaker 3: the players in the Chims you'd look at this at nine. Yes,
Speaker 3: these two holes together, four or five. It didn't matters five, four,
Speaker 3: four or five in their county. If they walk off
Speaker 3: here with nine on their scorecard for the two holes,
Speaker 3: they're happy. They're going on. He said, So, however you
Speaker 3: want to think of it, it's note and he was
Speaker 3: absolutely right.
Speaker 5: And one two Riviera fourteen fifteen at sand Hill, I mean,
Speaker 5: they're all yeah.
Speaker 3: And you know if you look back, people say, well
Speaker 3: they work that way for the you know, the previous
Speaker 3: opens they're number two. Well, they when Ross completely redid
Speaker 3: the course for the thirty six PGA Championship. They were
Speaker 3: both par fives. So you know, it's against it all
Speaker 3: relative according to time and place.
Speaker 5: So outside of this old town of timers that you've gotten.
Speaker 6: To do restorations of what site or what of course
Speaker 6: that you've restored has been in that course that like,
Speaker 6: the longer you spend, the greater appreciation you have for it.
Speaker 3: M hmm. I don't think there is work, Mandy, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's not only have we been extremely fortunate
Speaker 3: with regard to sites to work with for new courses,
Speaker 3: We've we've been very fortunate to work in some really
Speaker 3: neat old courses. And I'm not going to sit here
Speaker 3: and start to give you a rundown out of those
Speaker 3: courses I think of it sounds horribly so serving. But
Speaker 3: we've worked as a truly truly special golf courses in
Speaker 3: this country. And it's much like earlier conversation when you
Speaker 3: go to one of them, Wow, this is unbelievable, it's fantastic,
Speaker 3: and you and then you go to another one you oh, wow,
Speaker 3: that's equally of it. And so what you try to do,
Speaker 3: or at least I think what we try to do,
Speaker 3: is appreciate each one for what it is and try
Speaker 3: to understand each one for what it is and what
Speaker 3: it was meant to be.
Speaker 4: So is that how you approached the restoration work? Is
Speaker 4: is you know, not just putting everything back, but discovering
Speaker 4: the attention.
Speaker 3: Of Absolutely you're trying to take yourself out of the picture,
Speaker 3: and you're trying to do the work in such a
Speaker 3: way that if the person who are people who did
Speaker 3: it in the beginning came back, you know, they might
Speaker 3: just not in approval. I mean when we worked at
Speaker 3: number two, of course in Pinners, there was a huge change,
Speaker 3: huge change both visually, you know, the course played and
Speaker 3: the whole band I could do Toobe Carb all of
Speaker 3: us who were working out there with this kid, we
Speaker 3: just hope that mister Ross, if he came back, you know,
Speaker 3: not that he's gonna plaud, but at least he would
Speaker 3: be in approval that this is this is as close
Speaker 3: as we know how to get to what our sense
Speaker 3: is he must have intended, and you know the same
Speaker 3: thing in other places then we worked. You don't go
Speaker 3: there to leave your signature. You go there to try
Speaker 3: to recapture something that was as.
Speaker 2: The restoration. I'm excited to see more and more.
Speaker 5: Come is because there's so many places that if you
Speaker 5: could get back to that original field, you know, from
Speaker 5: where it's gone, it would it make golf a lot
Speaker 5: better a lot of places.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it can be extremely difficult, it can be
Speaker 3: extremely political. It's you know, yeah, I mean just since
Speaker 3: we're talking about Pioneers, but you think about wouldn't he
Speaker 3: Benda first went there, Don Pageant, who's the president of Pioneers,
Speaker 3: and Bob Dedman, the owner. They just said, we would
Speaker 3: like you to restore this golf course. And I remember
Speaker 3: the first question when you had to restore to what
Speaker 3: this thing is changing its characters so much through all
Speaker 3: these decades. Well, restored to what which partners number two
Speaker 3: do you don't want to go back to? And in
Speaker 3: the case of Pioneers, if it was possible to do
Speaker 3: to restore to the most perceived to be pioneers number two,
Speaker 3: and it's very vast, there are some places you simply
Speaker 3: could not do that anymore. And not not just because
Speaker 3: maybe they've been now there are thousands of one thousands
Speaker 3: of trees, but sometimes there are houses there. They're different,
Speaker 3: there's a different infrastructure, there's different things that have changed.
Speaker 3: You know that it's just simply not possible to put
Speaker 3: it back.
Speaker 5: We talked to earlier a little bit about the pro
Speaker 5: game and how gets very you know, hit it straight,
Speaker 5: hit it close and narrow. And this year they'll have
Speaker 5: the Buyer and Nelson, the trinity for us.
Speaker 2: What do you I mean, what are you expecting from
Speaker 2: from the tournament? I mean it's going to be a
Speaker 2: lot different than the typical tour.
Speaker 3: Of course for the most part.
Speaker 5: But you know, do you think do you think the
Speaker 5: feedback from players can be positive?
Speaker 3: I think it will be extremely mixed. I think it's
Speaker 3: going to be all the way across the spectacum. I
Speaker 3: think there will be some players who will very quickly
Speaker 3: appreciate it and like it. I think there will be
Speaker 3: some who very quickly will very much not like it.
Speaker 3: And it's just different, and it's different. It's different for Texas,
Speaker 3: it's different for the tour. It's a different presentation. And
Speaker 3: anything anytime something is different, there's you know, it's certainly
Speaker 3: open to a vast array of interpretation. Is whether that
Speaker 3: difference is good or not not good. So all we
Speaker 3: can say is we've done our best to present it
Speaker 3: in a way that we think would be interesting, you know,
Speaker 3: for those players, the world's best players, as well as
Speaker 3: the members and the people who play there. We try
Speaker 3: to create a golf course. It gives a lot of
Speaker 3: options for them to make their own decisions of what's
Speaker 3: going to happen. There's trendy forrest me. I think the
Speaker 3: very longest players on tour can go there. It's not
Speaker 3: like we've said you can't hit your driver as far
Speaker 3: as you will, you know, by the same token, I
Speaker 3: think we believe that given the firm conditions that we
Speaker 3: hope will appear to the term with the turf, that
Speaker 3: not that there are any short players on a tour anymore,
Speaker 3: but it could be a situation very likely that the
Speaker 3: longest player in the field could go there and think
Speaker 3: I can go in here, and the shortest player in
Speaker 3: the field could go I can win here and everything cleaned.
Speaker 3: So it's going to allow a lot of choices to
Speaker 3: be made by players as to how they want to play,
Speaker 3: how far down the fairways, and the fairways are wide
Speaker 3: by the tour standards are extremely wide, and they can
Speaker 3: choose to play it. I really wish. I don't think
Speaker 3: you will hear sometimes you hear comments like well, it's
Speaker 3: whoever puts bass that week, you know where it's a
Speaker 3: hunter's golf course. I don't think you'll hear that. I
Speaker 3: think it's uh, it's going to be more a matter
Speaker 3: of that there are times there that to be successful
Speaker 3: you may have to play a different approach to the
Speaker 3: greens than they might normally play. It's not it's not
Speaker 3: a point A to B. The c god really interesting.
Speaker 5: So many people aren't based around statistics now, I'm sure,
Speaker 5: and the Strokes game method is like, oh, if you're
Speaker 5: in Pharaoh this far away, you know you've gained this
Speaker 5: man if I think playing very good architectural, of course,
Speaker 5: is anywhere any good architecture.
Speaker 2: You can be in the middles fairly and be one
Speaker 2: of the.
Speaker 5: Worst places, and that to me is going to be
Speaker 5: the really riveting things.
Speaker 2: That the right play might be.
Speaker 5: To hit it way right with an iron off the
Speaker 5: tee versus hitting a driver up to forty yards, and
Speaker 5: that from forty yards you.
Speaker 2: Might have the worst spot. Evolve them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it will be very interesting to see Andy and
Speaker 3: Casey Cook the superintendent there, who's got the terf the
Speaker 3: old one thats Oyser, which is the closest thing to
Speaker 3: the ziser in terms of the cancil, I mean closest
Speaker 3: thing to fescue in terms of playing characteristics, how the
Speaker 3: ball chases once it's on the ground, and your ability
Speaker 3: to put from both the greens. This this is always
Speaker 3: is the closest thing to fisk you I have seen
Speaker 3: and Casey's got it really keen. And if it's if
Speaker 3: the weather is good, wind blows a little, hopefully not
Speaker 3: too much because it's totally exposed, but wind blows a
Speaker 3: little and and it's dry, and again that's a very
Speaker 3: big hit because May in Dallas, Texas is historically I
Speaker 3: think the web just a horrible amount of for weather.
Speaker 3: So we'll see, guys.
Speaker 7: But it's like I think there was a couple of
Speaker 7: years ago and they taped like the whole course of flood.
Speaker 2: So they've heard it at four and a three.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's a tough time the
Speaker 3: year there so but it's the weather's cooperative and uh,
Speaker 3: I think it will be. It'll be very interesting to see,
Speaker 3: but it's it's you're gonna get a lot of mixed reviews.
Speaker 3: We by no means say everybody's gonna go to, oh,
Speaker 3: this is fabulous, you love this. You know it's it's
Speaker 3: gonna take some time. I mean it's it's the fifth hole.
Speaker 3: There to a little short part for it goes slightly uphill.
Speaker 3: There's a big bunker out there on the right short
Speaker 3: of the green, probably twenty five yards so short of
Speaker 3: the green, and then the green is tiny, tiny, little
Speaker 3: little so the old steep green sitting there, no bunkers
Speaker 3: around it, but it's just persed way up, crowned off
Speaker 3: severely like a pineherds green, shortcut grass in front of it,
Speaker 3: right of it, behind it, left of it. And you know,
Speaker 3: I'm sure people would go, look, it was gonna be
Speaker 3: a piece of cake for these guys because they could
Speaker 3: drive the screen. It may be three hundred and five
Speaker 3: yards maybe, And but the keyt that hole is big
Speaker 3: bunker is hopefully positioned just properly to the point that
Speaker 3: all the players on tour I think can hit over
Speaker 3: the thing is hitting over it is not the primary
Speaker 3: objective for those guys. It's hitting over it, but not
Speaker 3: going over the green. So to get a ball for
Speaker 3: them to just weigh over one over there over the
Speaker 3: bunker easy. Now they're going to go over the green.
Speaker 3: And if you go over the green, I don't care
Speaker 3: who you are, Houdini is going to have a hard
Speaker 3: time getting up and down and maybe getting up and down.
Speaker 3: And you know in three from back over the green,
Speaker 3: it's just all mode, fairways tight. But now you're trying
Speaker 3: to get the ball up on this tiny little hubcap
Speaker 3: thing up there, and if you're not careful, you'll have
Speaker 3: a John Day experience are up there and back up
Speaker 3: there and back and exactly. And so the key process
Speaker 3: would be how do I get over the bunker barrely
Speaker 3: just barely over. So I hit that ground, it's just over.
Speaker 3: It carries me up onto the green, not over. And
Speaker 3: so that's the type stuff. And we'll see that kind
Speaker 3: of different presentation, not just that, but presentations throughout the
Speaker 3: course that those are the kind of decisions they'll have
Speaker 3: to make. And I think I think some will embrace that,
Speaker 3: and some perhaps want me though I was. I was
Speaker 3: there actually just passed Tuesday through Golf Rider outing, one
Speaker 3: of the Texas golf writers was told me about he
Speaker 3: had spoken to Jordan Smith not long ago and said, Jordan,
Speaker 3: you know, Jordan Blaze out there is basicallycomes home course
Speaker 3: and his teacher, Cameron Korbick his teachers out there, so
Speaker 3: you might want to battle Jordan's you know, he knows
Speaker 3: of course better than anybody. But fast thing Jordan was
Speaker 3: was talking to him and saying, you know, the course
Speaker 3: just gives you a lot offs. You just have to
Speaker 3: make a lot of decisions. A lot of times those
Speaker 3: decisions go really well, and sometimes they don't. And according
Speaker 3: to the golf writer, Speed told him, he said, I've
Speaker 3: played at you. I've shot six under bar on this course.
Speaker 3: He said, I've also shot six over you know, So
Speaker 3: to us, see, that's interesting golf when one of the
Speaker 3: world's best players says, I have to think about where
Speaker 3: I'm you know, maybe I'm a hen driver on all them.
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm a hen driver on some, maybe not. It's
Speaker 3: a process of them learning how they want to go
Speaker 3: about the negotiating of course. And then of course, if
Speaker 3: you have different wind.
Speaker 8: Conditions, hold different right, right, So that's in the game,
Speaker 8: don't I don't know, but.
Speaker 2: It'll it'll be.
Speaker 5: It's I'm saying, it's dark my super Bowl. It's gonna
Speaker 5: be the most excited about twenty eighteen. Let's get to
Speaker 5: this that a bunch of listener questions and we'll get
Speaker 5: a couple of you on and take up too much
Speaker 5: of your time. Jason Wade wants to know what do
Speaker 5: you wish to average golfer understood better about architecture.
Speaker 3: Probably how the ground influences play and how the the
Speaker 3: the detail work that goes into the creation of the
Speaker 3: golf courses is there to help you in many ways
Speaker 3: as opposed now it's you know, the perception is there
Speaker 3: architects go way out course and they create all these
Speaker 3: hazards to try to to challenge you. Well, that's true
Speaker 3: an extent, because without challenge God is interesting. Much like
Speaker 3: you said earlier, boy playing tennis straight down the middle
Speaker 3: of the court. But really interesting courses allow you to succeed.
Speaker 3: They give you a challenge and they present a situation,
Speaker 3: but they allow you to succeed. And oftentimes it's the
Speaker 3: way the tilt of the ground is, or the way
Speaker 3: the green sits against a certain slope, or his angles.
Speaker 3: It's often the small things. It's we all want to
Speaker 3: notice the giant features, the big magnificent earthworks and that
Speaker 3: sort of thing, But the detail is the things I
Speaker 3: think we notice so much, and it is so important.
Speaker 3: It's you know, a contour that's six eight inches high
Speaker 3: in a green, in a spine that runs down the
Speaker 3: green can dictate like all the way back to the team,
Speaker 3: if the whole presents itself in a certain way, allowing
Speaker 3: you to play to the right of the fairway, left
Speaker 3: of the fairway, or whatever. If you can tell where
Speaker 3: the pen is though it's on the right of end
Speaker 3: of the spine, it's on the left, and or man,
Speaker 3: I've got to play over here over there, And those
Speaker 3: are the type things we find so interesting.
Speaker 5: I think spines are so cool too, because good players
Speaker 5: miss right and left, they don't miss numbers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 5: So a spine all of a sudden to the right
Speaker 5: and left of the pen, that you could hit a
Speaker 5: shot to fifteen feet and.
Speaker 3: Had a really topple upun there are so many holes
Speaker 3: around the world that you look at that the play
Speaker 3: is dictated by a single feature. Generally, most are so
Speaker 3: often at a green, fourth greene that the old course
Speaker 3: has sat in a little knob, a little man that
Speaker 3: sits up short the fourth green, that particularly for good players,
Speaker 3: it's just simply hit a teacher and we'll have to
Speaker 3: deal with that thing, you know, and it's just those
Speaker 3: it's that type of thing, you know. And I think
Speaker 3: the better the player is the more they're influenced by
Speaker 3: small things rather than largely because it can be the
Speaker 3: biggest bunker in the world. Most good players don't worry
Speaker 3: about hit over, you know, or if there's enough room
Speaker 3: to decide, they can avoid it. But it's it's just
Speaker 3: smaller things. It's one of the one of the things
Speaker 3: I've learned so much from Ben through all the years
Speaker 3: is how little things do affect the best players in
Speaker 3: the world. You know, a certain tilt of the ground
Speaker 3: in combination with a certain wind angle can make things
Speaker 3: easier or more complicated, more difficult for a good player.
Speaker 3: So it's it's often the little things that is important
Speaker 3: as the big and I think I think so often
Speaker 3: people look at golf courses and focus on the big
Speaker 3: picture and sometimes miss the detail.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so's the little things that it's a It's like
Speaker 5: what we talked about before about.
Speaker 2: You know, the difference between that, you know, the what
Speaker 2: people were trying to.
Speaker 5: Men have died with, but they missed a little details
Speaker 5: inside of it.
Speaker 3: Exactly. Pete was a master at making small elements work
Speaker 3: and influence play, and sometimes those will get lost I
Speaker 3: think in the picture that was presumed.
Speaker 5: So we'll go to Joe Estes with a little bit
Speaker 5: of history. Is a w song has great grandson. He h,
Speaker 5: you wanted to ask, you've.
Speaker 2: Built so many great courses, what are you still learning
Speaker 2: at your most recent projects?
Speaker 3: And that you didn't know for you know? So it's
Speaker 3: first of all, do I'd have to say my partner,
Speaker 3: Ben Crenshaw is such a huge fan to your great grandfather.
Speaker 3: If you has been, you know what his favorite architects are.
Speaker 3: I mean, Perry Maxim is going to be up there
Speaker 3: because Ben grew up on Perry Maxwell golf course too.
Speaker 3: So he and I are both going to be an
Speaker 3: agree with that. But he will almost immediately a day
Speaker 3: of Ittilian and so and which is from my perspective,
Speaker 3: completely understandable and probably from a perspective of building golf
Speaker 3: courses that can strategically and interestingly challenge the very best
Speaker 3: players in the world even today, hey of courses that
Speaker 3: were built many decades ago, I would have to think
Speaker 3: he would be at the absolute top. Is of course
Speaker 3: direct school. Oh, it's incredible, It's just it's just incredible.
Speaker 3: But I guess to your question, you know, it just
Speaker 3: seemed like there was a cliche or something once said
Speaker 3: that when you when you quit learning your dad or
Speaker 3: something to that effect. I don't know, but yeah, I
Speaker 3: think each one of our each one of our projects,
Speaker 3: I think we learned from what we've done, and and
Speaker 3: then observing what we've done, we obviously learned from what
Speaker 3: other people have done. There's no question you have to
Speaker 3: do that. But even in our small little realm, we
Speaker 3: we observe what we've done. We observe when it worked,
Speaker 3: when things worked, when they didn't, and how do we
Speaker 3: try to get interesting presentations of interesting sites, but do
Speaker 3: in such a way we minimize the things that don't
Speaker 3: work and maximize the things that we learned that do.
Speaker 3: So I don't know that I can give you an
Speaker 3: absolute example of that other and it becomes cumulative, and
Speaker 3: the whole thing becomes cumulative in the sense that so
Speaker 3: many decisions when you're creating a golf course, so many
Speaker 3: decisions become pure judgment calls. You can try to base
Speaker 3: the most statistics, and you can try to do this
Speaker 3: and that and the other, but the difference in the
Speaker 3: very best architecture and some of the very worst. It's
Speaker 3: not that far removed, and you want to walk down
Speaker 3: the line and you want to make it as interesting
Speaker 3: as it can be and at the same time not
Speaker 3: cross over the line, and somehow you just fall into goofiness.
Speaker 3: And that may sound weird, but it's it can be
Speaker 3: a pretty fine line to walk if you look at
Speaker 3: the you look at the greens at Wingfo But yeah,
Speaker 3: and you go, mister Tilling has a pretty damn good idea.
Speaker 3: What was going to work? And what was it? And
Speaker 3: yet it's on the line. Man, he's walking on that line.
Speaker 3: And see you go if you you know, we often
Speaker 3: look at stuff, whether it's like there or an oak munt,
Speaker 3: and going could we ever build these greens? First of all,
Speaker 3: I don't think I think Ben would agree with me.
Speaker 3: I don't think either of us think that we're so
Speaker 3: proud of the guys that we work with. We're prejudiced.
Speaker 3: We happen to think they're the best. But at the
Speaker 3: same time, when you see things like the Conjours or
Speaker 3: the greens at Oakmont, or you go to wing Foot
Speaker 3: and you just you just see things summer set hills,
Speaker 3: you go to look at the greens Summerset Hills and
Speaker 3: you go, are you kidding me? Who thought of this?
Speaker 3: How did he think of this?
Speaker 2: And it works?
Speaker 3: And yet you could easily try to mimic some of
Speaker 3: that those conjours within green within putting services and fail
Speaker 3: miserably and then be tearing them all up and redoing
Speaker 3: them within a year. So it's those judgment calls. How
Speaker 3: do you how do you make them? And how do
Speaker 3: you approximate the best that's ever been done in terms
Speaker 3: of creativity and still making it work.
Speaker 5: It is a fine line. Jerry Flyon, who used to
Speaker 5: work at Sandle, had a question along the same line
Speaker 5: that kind of love, we've certainly end it.
Speaker 2: If you could redo.
Speaker 5: Any hole or strangles at your courses, would you do it?
Speaker 5: And if you would, where would it be?
Speaker 3: Well we have done it, I mean we have done it.
Speaker 3: Good to hear from you, Jared to no balls and
Speaker 3: well have we talked to you in a while? So
Speaker 3: like Jared a lot, it's very talent, very talent.
Speaker 5: Good.
Speaker 3: You know, again, we do the best we know how
Speaker 3: to do it with each given site, each given opportunity
Speaker 3: to build a course. That doesn't mean we get it right.
Speaker 3: We try, but we're very much aware, and particularly on
Speaker 3: some sites that are pretty severe, that you think something's
Speaker 3: you know, you put the first presentation out there, I
Speaker 3: think this is the best we know how to do
Speaker 3: on this, and then you watch it, and you watch
Speaker 3: people play it over a period of time, and then
Speaker 3: if if you believe, you sincerely believe you can refine
Speaker 3: something or make something better, make it more playable, or
Speaker 3: make it more interesting for more than just one classic offer.
Speaker 3: You don't just look at it. How do we make
Speaker 3: this tougher for the college players or the tour players
Speaker 3: or something. How could we do something? Could we do
Speaker 3: something here that would influence make this more interesting for
Speaker 3: the members, for the resort players, or the guests or
Speaker 3: the best players in the world. That's whatever we can
Speaker 3: we do this? Can we accomplish that and make it
Speaker 3: more interesting. That's when you make a move, and or
Speaker 3: when something just simply you know, just think, well, we
Speaker 3: did the best we could at the time, and now,
Speaker 3: hindsight being pro bbial twenty twenty, we probably should have
Speaker 3: done something a little different. We've been fortunate in not
Speaker 3: having a huge number of those situations. But it was
Speaker 3: just daylight some and I we're just at Eastampton Golf
Speaker 3: Club just a month ago. And the little drop shot
Speaker 3: Part three holder of the seventeenth it was number eight
Speaker 3: when we were did the switch the lines which a
Speaker 3: little downhill, just pitch a little pitch down the hill
Speaker 3: to a plateau green. Part three. The green was that
Speaker 3: we built simply too severe for the green speeds and
Speaker 3: maintained and two and for you know, it just didn't
Speaker 3: it just didn't work. Well. Did it work? Yes, it worked.
Speaker 3: The members and seemed to have embraced it for years.
Speaker 3: For years now I've been I've been talking to the
Speaker 3: folks at East Tampa about could we just go soften
Speaker 3: those countries. We can maintain the relationships. So it's not
Speaker 3: like the the Green can look dramatically different or anything.
Speaker 3: It just can we we can just make it a
Speaker 3: little more payable and playable and just a little more fun.
Speaker 3: And uh, the kid that the guys folks at East
Speaker 3: Hampton and they were they were very happy with it
Speaker 3: to where it was. But this year enough sand and
Speaker 3: built up from the bunker, you know, coming out of
Speaker 3: the bunkers around the rim of the green, and it
Speaker 3: had started to really constricting things they said we we
Speaker 3: should probably fit for. At the same time, we sawt
Speaker 3: in the contract a little bit. And then they just
Speaker 3: reseeded the green away as well. They won't they won't
Speaker 3: see it till next season. But yeah, yeah, it's still
Speaker 3: got you know, it's got a little upper left shelf
Speaker 3: in a little kind of middle upper thing in the
Speaker 3: back center and the little dippy thing in the front pen.
Speaker 5: And so.
Speaker 3: But we, yes, we study these things that we're we
Speaker 3: by no means believe that our first attempt at anything
Speaker 3: is going to be the way it should absolutely be.
Speaker 2: It's a good way to look at everything in life.
Speaker 3: I think, and in the thing for us is we
Speaker 3: love to maintain connection with the courses that we've done
Speaker 3: and then watch how to progress. And sometimes, you know,
Speaker 3: there can be some outcry against some element of the
Speaker 3: golf course, and we resist saying, okay, let's go change that.
Speaker 3: Let's see how it goes for a while, because sometimes
Speaker 3: something particularly it's something different, may not be the most
Speaker 3: positively received, but over period of time it becomes appreciated,
Speaker 3: and so we like to give it time. And then
Speaker 3: if we maintain the you know, the connection with the
Speaker 3: course and we all we get together with the owners
Speaker 3: and the members in order of the bodies may be
Speaker 3: that you know that take care of the on the course,
Speaker 3: take care of the course, and we say, okay, could
Speaker 3: we do something here that might make it a little
Speaker 3: more interesting, a little more playable, or whatever the case
Speaker 3: may be. So the courses we like, and you're the
Speaker 3: ones that we do the best we know how to do,
Speaker 3: and yet we're probably aware that they haven't reached their
Speaker 3: potential because that potential needs to be gained through stewardship
Speaker 3: and management over a period of time and seeing how
Speaker 3: they play and then seeing things that they need some
Speaker 3: alterations big or small to get closer and closer to
Speaker 3: their potential. So we we like seeing the courses that progress,
Speaker 3: maybe not dramatically, but quietly not working.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so many courses go the wrong way over time.
Speaker 2: Really great to see and go the right way.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I got this question from a couple of youngsters and.
Speaker 5: Various ages, But advice for younger people who want to
Speaker 5: become architects who have studied the kind of concepts, But
Speaker 5: you know, what would be your advice for a nineteen
Speaker 5: or seventeen year old and you know, at this point
Speaker 5: in their life wants to become a golf course architect.
Speaker 3: Well, my first advice is have plan me, a serious
Speaker 3: plan me. I guess it's easy for me sitting here
Speaker 3: at this point in my life. But I remember Pete
Speaker 3: dialand was years ago when we mentioned earlier about him
Speaker 3: lying on the path watching the Dophins game, and I
Speaker 3: said about I'd like to you know, I'd kind of
Speaker 3: like said this had done, I might want to be
Speaker 3: a golf course. I remember he was flippantly pat you know,
Speaker 3: said it's only becoming a golf course already, talking about
Speaker 3: same as being struck by lightning. You know it just
Speaker 3: knew he's right back to TV. And that's not the
Speaker 3: most encouraging advice. But it's not that far off. I
Speaker 3: mean really in particularly in today's economic world, and it's
Speaker 3: it's not that it can't happen. If you have a
Speaker 3: dream to do that would I would say, choose every
Speaker 3: possible avenue to pursue that dream, and yet make sure
Speaker 3: there is a serious plan be back up. I would
Speaker 3: say that to people are who are looking at golf architecture.
Speaker 3: I would absolutely say it to people who think they're
Speaker 3: going to play golfs for a living. There are a
Speaker 3: lot of gary players out there. You better have plan B.
Speaker 3: And so. Now having said that, I would study golf
Speaker 3: courses as much as I possibly could, see as many
Speaker 3: different ones as they could, I would not necessarily just
Speaker 3: fall in line and say, oh, this is here's so
Speaker 3: and so's ranking of courses. This has got to be
Speaker 3: really good, it's in the top. Whatever. Go make your
Speaker 3: own judgments. See enough different things to decide yourself do
Speaker 3: I like this? And if you do, why do I
Speaker 3: not like this? Why don't make those judgments on how
Speaker 3: you played that day? If you play, make them upon
Speaker 3: why didn't you like it? Or why do you like it?
Speaker 3: Have to have to put up a reasonable defense of
Speaker 3: your position, and by you know, you may see a
Speaker 3: golf course it's not on anyone's ranking of anything and
Speaker 3: think it's better than maybe the one that's the highest
Speaker 3: rank of any ranking you see. That's okay, that has
Speaker 3: merit that idea of thinking, I appreciate this course more.
Speaker 3: Just get to the point you understand why you appreciate it.
Speaker 3: And then if you if you got put in a
Speaker 3: position to defend it, how would you defend it? So
Speaker 3: beyond that. I would also say if you're able to
Speaker 3: do it, if you're financial situation as such, or if
Speaker 3: you can survive when extorted in minimal finances and that
Speaker 3: sort of thing, you don't have a family you're responsible for,
Speaker 3: then go get engaged in the business of building these things.
Speaker 3: Start at the ground. Starting at the ground is not fun,
Speaker 3: but start if you have to, as a labor with
Speaker 3: a maintenance crew on a golf course, then a construction crew.
Speaker 3: Find out how these things get built, and then interact,
Speaker 3: if possible, with the people who are making the decisions
Speaker 3: as to how they're being built, and then if possible,
Speaker 3: with people that are making decisions how they're being designed,
Speaker 3: and just get engaged in the process. I mean, if
Speaker 3: you can learn how to do that and get a
Speaker 3: sense of what actually occurs. Because we all have the thief,
Speaker 3: we can all study the books and we can all
Speaker 3: come up with the talking point. But when the push
Speaker 3: comes to shadow, as they say, how do you get
Speaker 3: it done? And you can talk about risk and reward,
Speaker 3: and you can talk about all the strategy you can
Speaker 3: talk you can talk about all these things. All you
Speaker 3: want to do, you make the most beautiful sketches with
Speaker 3: how do you get it done on the ground. That's
Speaker 3: a whole another thing. And I remember Pete telling me
Speaker 3: in years ago too, is it one thing you'd have
Speaker 3: to learn. You've got to understand how to talk to
Speaker 3: the guide on the machine. That's another cutting through to
Speaker 3: the most simplestic way. I'm staying communicating, you've got to
Speaker 3: understand if you're expecting something to happen in terms of contour,
Speaker 3: how do you get that message through? And if you
Speaker 3: know how to do it yourself, if you're physically capable
Speaker 3: of running a piece of equipment and creating something yourself,
Speaker 3: it's a huge advantage because even if you're struggling to
Speaker 3: communicate somebody else, you can show an example. This is
Speaker 3: what we're talking about. This is this is how, and
Speaker 3: you start to build those relationships with the people who
Speaker 3: are making it happen. And it works the other way
Speaker 3: because when they realize you, first of all, have been
Speaker 3: willing to do that and secondly understand a bit of
Speaker 3: what they're going to that respect and appreciation is going
Speaker 3: to increase dramatically, and then communication is going to be
Speaker 3: much much better. So I've said that our guys, you know,
Speaker 3: we've got guys that have worked with us for years
Speaker 3: ago off and do their own designs and they're just
Speaker 3: doing some absolutely beautiful stuff. But they're able to do
Speaker 3: it because they're also not only that they can think
Speaker 3: about the design, the theory, the strategy and risk award,
Speaker 3: they're able to get it done on the ground. So
Speaker 3: particularly some of these lower budget golf course which they're
Speaker 3: all they're gonna be more one of those as time
Speaker 3: goes by. But when that those courses, if you have
Speaker 3: the ability to literally create your ideas yourself on the ground,
Speaker 3: you had a huge edge start because then the lower
Speaker 3: budget situations, well, I get this guy, he designed it,
Speaker 3: but he can also make it happen and work with
Speaker 3: the guys now. Years ago that was very difficult to
Speaker 3: do because you're either the designer or you were a
Speaker 3: constructor or a builder or something. So the design build
Speaker 3: thing back many years ago was you know, I'll say
Speaker 3: it wasn't looked upon so favorably, but it's absolutely the
Speaker 3: way of the future.
Speaker 2: He said that all the time.
Speaker 5: You find these younger like especially any Ali that's looking
Speaker 5: to do anything should and you don't have a budgets
Speaker 5: that get somebody that's a uper talented, but he can
Speaker 5: do all the work.
Speaker 3: And that's absolutely right. And I mean, you know, two
Speaker 3: of the guys who worked with us, Keith Repp and
Speaker 3: Riley Jones, what they did at Winter Park, the little
Speaker 3: nine whole course down there far Egypt. They did the
Speaker 3: most beautiful job. And it was a situation there simply
Speaker 3: it was not a budget if they had hired a
Speaker 3: quote name designer or something there with their whole budget,
Speaker 3: or if they you know, if they if they didn't
Speaker 3: they have a you know, a contractor actor Willison. I'm
Speaker 3: believe me, I'm very great admiration for golf course builders
Speaker 3: and they do fabulous work. But there's sometimes you just
Speaker 3: got to have a little bit of both and and
Speaker 3: to make it happen. And there's a prime example, and
Speaker 3: uh Dave Oxen and Dan Prompter who worked with us.
Speaker 3: They went out there to Wildhorse Gothenburg, Nebraska, in the
Speaker 3: tiny little town in the you know, the edges of
Speaker 3: the sand hills there in Nebraska, and they built us
Speaker 3: this eighteen year old golf course. It must have been
Speaker 3: fifteen years ago or so. It's still considered one of
Speaker 3: the best public golf courses in America. Yes, and I think,
Speaker 3: I think it may be considered the best, very low
Speaker 3: priced point golf course in America. And it's because they
Speaker 3: worked with a contractor and they worked with construction people
Speaker 3: do it, but they designed it and helped build it
Speaker 3: themselves with the with you know, the assistance of the
Speaker 3: golf course contractor.
Speaker 5: Do you think about the logic pres you hire an
Speaker 5: art intact who hires the contractor, two businesses are making
Speaker 5: a profit off of it. If you hire an architect
Speaker 5: that builds one business like, you know, like everybodyho's making
Speaker 5: them profit, you know, like you wouldn't be in business
Speaker 5: like but you're taking one.
Speaker 2: And then also that communication. The the whole idea is
Speaker 2: there's one last person and you know how much he
Speaker 2: hears it for you to make a decision, and it
Speaker 2: is for you and you're allowed to make it.
Speaker 5: This is.
Speaker 3: The simple. Unfortunately, we're pretty good about that. It's not
Speaker 3: that big a difference. But yeah, I understand completing what
Speaker 3: you're saying. Yeah, it's just.
Speaker 2: So we do this overrated underrated. Second, so I give
Speaker 2: you this is the last thing we're doing. I give
Speaker 2: you a topic and you have to overrate or underrated.
Speaker 2: There's no properly rated. So we're going to start with
Speaker 2: Ben crenshops hunting.
Speaker 3: I would say it's underrating. I mean, I've watched Ben
Speaker 3: now for he and I've been business partnership. It's going
Speaker 3: to be thirty two years next month. It's just incredible,
Speaker 3: hard to believe, but you know, I've watched Ben from
Speaker 3: the town. He was absolutely one of the very best
Speaker 3: players in the world and probably recognizes the best putter
Speaker 3: in the world. And to today where he buys own
Speaker 3: admission with not calling himself one of the better players
Speaker 3: in Austin probably versus and that's left in the world.
Speaker 3: So and and and yet even to this day, his
Speaker 3: ability to roll the golf ball on putting service is
Speaker 3: just the thing to behold. He just is. He does
Speaker 3: it time after times, just the ability to visualize a
Speaker 3: line and get the proper speed and then to get
Speaker 3: the vault and just roll over and over towards the
Speaker 3: hole and almost invariably will end up either touching the
Speaker 3: hole or being extremely close to it. And you see
Speaker 3: it so often you just take it for granted, and
Speaker 3: it just you know, we were talking some earlier about
Speaker 3: people who are truly extraordinary. They're what they do make
Speaker 3: it look so easy even you believe you can do it.
Speaker 3: And so I've looked at this for years and ago
Speaker 3: I can do that. Well, it doesn't quite work out
Speaker 3: that way, you know, And so I don't know the
Speaker 3: be in an agreement of this, but three years men
Speaker 3: has extraordinary I say, even to this day, and I
Speaker 3: truly believe that that is a part of his heat.
Speaker 3: Can see the movement of grass and things on cutting
Speaker 3: surfaces in a way that I've never seen anyone else.
Speaker 3: And you know, I truly believe that's part of it.
Speaker 3: And of course he's incredible touch his build to just
Speaker 3: roll a poll from the proper line at proper speed,
Speaker 3: and it's so as as much as he's been touted
Speaker 3: as being one of the worlds, is not the world's
Speaker 3: best putters. I think his reputation is under state.
Speaker 2: I bet I bet that putters that can see a
Speaker 2: few matches over the year.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, Ben I don't play for anything that, so yeah,
Speaker 3: I can't. We just start off. It's a given who's
Speaker 3: going to win, So it's the we go.
Speaker 7: From there, playing against a guy who, when it's anywhere
Speaker 7: with the twenty five feet year just utterly terrified that.
Speaker 3: The ball's going to go. Yeah, it's it looks like
Speaker 3: almost everyone's going to go on with it.
Speaker 2: Overrated, underrated, blind approp.
Speaker 3: Shots overrated meaning they're they're perceived as as bad in
Speaker 3: just in just in general. You know, they I just
Speaker 3: go the.
Speaker 2: Public perception is your basis.
Speaker 3: Well, the public perception I think would be that that's
Speaker 3: a that's a negative. You know, blind appro shots. I
Speaker 3: personally believe nothing Ben agrees to this. That in there
Speaker 3: in certain situations, you can't have anything more fascinating that
Speaker 3: a blind approach over the hill and get the top
Speaker 3: of the hill and look down there and see where
Speaker 3: did it go. And if the if the contours allow
Speaker 3: you to play certain shots and legally you get the ball,
Speaker 3: you know, perhaps you're the whole even on a blind shot.
Speaker 3: I think it's I think those are extremely interesting situations.
Speaker 3: Now you don't want to just overdo it. You know,
Speaker 3: it's bright. So if you from our perspective, if we're
Speaker 3: laying out a hole and the second shot is over
Speaker 3: the hill to a green, you don't see it. We
Speaker 3: will very very seldom lock down the hill where you
Speaker 3: can see it.
Speaker 2: Two hundred yard and longer part threes over eater under.
Speaker 3: I think there was there was a time iny that
Speaker 3: forgetting a little struggling and overrated and rated but either
Speaker 3: be more. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Speaker 3: It's we've built a lot along par threes, I guess
Speaker 3: partly because Ben I both grew up on courses that
Speaker 3: had them, you know, usually one really long part three.
Speaker 3: There was there was a belief you read the old
Speaker 3: golf architecture books, there was a belief that that that
Speaker 3: was a part of the game. Your ability to play
Speaker 3: a wooden shot into a part three in order to
Speaker 3: exhibit that skill, the accuracy as well as the distance
Speaker 3: into you know, into a part three was a significant
Speaker 3: part of the game. I think it's harder to do
Speaker 3: these days because the distance the ball goes and everything.
Speaker 3: You know, it used to be a two hundred and
Speaker 3: fifteen or twenty yard hole. It's just extraordinarily long. And
Speaker 3: it was it was a wood shot, yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: and now it's a same yeah. And so we go, really,
Speaker 3: so we're gonna build two hundred and eighty yard part three,
Speaker 3: We're gonna build three hundred yard Part three. That's when
Speaker 3: I think it starts to get I start to question.
Speaker 3: So I think that the change in the distance the
Speaker 3: ball goes has changed that equation dramatically.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was reading Donald when I goes Downal Ross's book.
Speaker 5: And yeah, there's a quote that was like the skill
Speaker 5: the truest test of skill is the long iron game.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's so sad that now there.
Speaker 2: Drying to watch.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've said Dustin Johnson along he had one iron
Speaker 5: shot into the park four.
Speaker 2: Longer than seven iron last year.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the whole year. That's incredible. Yeah, I'm not
Speaker 3: I'm actually not surprised him.
Speaker 5: It was.
Speaker 3: You know, you were talking about the Warren Course in
Speaker 3: under Dame. I was up there about three weeks ago,
Speaker 3: I guess, and we were doing a few little bunkers
Speaker 3: tweets and things for the Senior Open, and they were
Speaker 3: playing a collegiate tournament there that day, and there were
Speaker 3: some good, good teams there, but it wasn't like the
Speaker 3: best college teams in America. And yet I was just
Speaker 3: fascinating watching some of these young guys. I mean you
Speaker 3: just one after another after another after another, they were
Speaker 3: hitting the ball. I happened to know how far they
Speaker 3: were hitting because we've been measuring to some of these
Speaker 3: buckers and you'd have to stand there and wait from
Speaker 3: the hit. We were working that particular day, but had
Speaker 3: to wait for them as I just measured everything. They
Speaker 3: hit the ball two ninety five to three zho five
Speaker 3: in the air, in the air and you go, and
Speaker 3: then some of them beyond. But it was like, really, really,
Speaker 3: that's so when you do that, how long do you
Speaker 3: have to make the whole to not have a sevener?
Speaker 5: It's unsustainable. And then the problem is is that the
Speaker 5: distance advantage has gotten so high for the great players
Speaker 5: and it hasn't really gotten that, you know that it
Speaker 5: hasn't equally moved for.
Speaker 2: The regular player. Absolutely.
Speaker 3: One of the golf writers called me late last year
Speaker 3: by Trendy Forrest and he said, they so they're going
Speaker 3: to play the by announcer there next year, I mean
Speaker 3: in the eighteen And he said, so, what have you
Speaker 3: and Ben done to come back the huge advantages of
Speaker 3: the players have today in the distance. And I know
Speaker 3: the man thought I was just being Maybe he thought
Speaker 3: I was being disrespectful. I thought I wasn't. But I
Speaker 3: just will in generally made the course shorter and wider,
Speaker 3: and there's just this pause on his What I said,
Speaker 3: I said, don't mean that the sound probably is probably
Speaker 3: the way it probably came across, I said, But it's true,
Speaker 3: I said. We haven't worried about land We haven't tried
Speaker 3: to make the holes. I said, First of all, it's
Speaker 3: on one hundred and forty acres training for Here's it's
Speaker 3: on the landfill. You can't drop off the side of
Speaker 3: the land fell. You just you come find you can't
Speaker 3: make their holes. You just can't make me longer. So
Speaker 3: we weren't out there trying to. So how do we
Speaker 3: make this longer and longer and longer. We're gonna make
Speaker 3: fairways wide enough to have to choose a line, choose
Speaker 3: the wrong line. The longest players better choose a proper
Speaker 3: line or they will go through the fairway into something
Speaker 3: they maybe I like. So they have to choose the lines.
Speaker 3: And then that's what we're adding with. And then even
Speaker 3: a little bit short because generally speaking, the guys, the
Speaker 3: guys seem to struggle the most with distance control. It's
Speaker 3: not can you hit it far enough over something everybody
Speaker 3: can do that. Can you hit it precisely enough someplace
Speaker 3: and with the contours of the greens, being such that
Speaker 3: you need to land your ball properly, either short of
Speaker 3: a contour or over a contour or that sort of
Speaker 3: thing with if the if the turf is firm, then
Speaker 3: we feel like that's that's that's what we're doing. It
Speaker 3: also provides interest for the members and your guests. But
Speaker 3: you know we're we're not up. First of all, we
Speaker 3: don't really do tournament courses, but we do courses that
Speaker 3: sometimes they play tournaments on, and so we'll see.
Speaker 2: Reminds me that Aholt Sandhills.
Speaker 5: I think the pin was right about the Bombers Alliance
Speaker 5: not free for those the short part four and I
Speaker 5: hit a drive the first time around of the day
Speaker 5: right down the middle, smoked.
Speaker 2: I had like thirty yards in it and I stood
Speaker 2: there and I was like, I'm in the very worst spot. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: thirty yards right down the middle. And that's the last
Speaker 2: time around. I made sure to hit it as far
Speaker 2: left or I went left as far left as I
Speaker 2: could with the driver so I could have an angle in.
Speaker 2: And that's gonna be the fascinating thing about watching it.
Speaker 5: It's gonna be a completely different style off. So last
Speaker 5: overrated under ade.
Speaker 2: Get hit out of here. I gotta get home tonight.
Speaker 2: Pedal Beach, I.
Speaker 3: Don't. I don't know, Andy, how a huge amn Pedal Steach,
Speaker 3: I don't do. I think it's the best golf course
Speaker 3: I've ever seen in the world. No. Is it extremely interesting? Yes?
Speaker 3: Is it extremely inspiring? Yes?
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 3: I guess in that case, I would almost have to
Speaker 3: look at an individual ranking. That's I think it's o
Speaker 3: rat or underrated to see, but just to just pick
Speaker 3: it in general out there, I don't know. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: so I would, I would see generally it's probably underrated.
Speaker 3: That's a lie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. I think you see the whole
Speaker 2: photos in that place.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's it's you know, I mean, am I
Speaker 3: partial discipherus point? Yes, you know it's But that doesn't
Speaker 3: mean that I don't think Pebble Beach is not extraordinary.
Speaker 3: What about positive? I've never seen positive. Yeah, I've never
Speaker 3: seen it, so I had no No, I've seen photographs
Speaker 3: of it, you know, early on and then later after
Speaker 3: Jim or being in tom Dog and work there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was there last week. It's the latest corpse.
Speaker 2: That's you know, just stuck in my head.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what. Yeah, it's real. I can't imagine. It's
Speaker 3: not really good since Mackenzie lived there.
Speaker 5: It's it's the bad eyes something else. And you know,
Speaker 5: you look at that and it's they afforded one thousand
Speaker 5: rounds a year. So there's certain things there that And
Speaker 5: I think this is always something that gets lost, is
Speaker 5: that certain places can't.
Speaker 3: Be what other places are.
Speaker 2: And it doesn't mean that they're worse. That just means
Speaker 2: that this is a issue. But if you took that club,
Speaker 2: that course and with a ten.
Speaker 5: Thousand round exclusive club and you could, I mean, it
Speaker 5: would be out of this world.
Speaker 3: But it is so good everybody.
Speaker 2: I mean, I love the model that they had.
Speaker 3: There too in terms of blood.
Speaker 2: But yeah, enough, you gotta go.
Speaker 3: Yeah at some point, got some point.
Speaker 2: But thanks so much for the fact this was You're welcome.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for enduring the brutal
Speaker 3: cold today.
Speaker 2: That was it.
Speaker 3: And for walking around the park three cards. That was fun.
Speaker 2: That was enduring cold. That was fun.
Speaker 3: So thanks again, Okay, very well until next time.
Speaker 1: The Company of extat the Colts