Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Wait inside from the reporters and
Speaker 1: editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus
Speaker 1: global business finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week
Speaker 1: Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2: Carol, you know that I am so excited to talk
Speaker 2: about this story. It's a mon our, most read obviously,
Speaker 2: it's among the most talked about on none other platform
Speaker 2: than Twitter. We're talking about Meta's new app, Threads, the
Speaker 2: rhinebol to Twitter, right, real threat to Elon Musk and
Speaker 2: his social media platform that's already been struggling quite a
Speaker 2: bit since he perhaps overpaid just a touch according to
Speaker 2: some for the platform. Someone who knows the company very
Speaker 2: very well is joining us to discuss this. We've got
Speaker 2: Bloomberg News Big Tech team leader Sarah Fryar, also the
Speaker 2: author of No Filter, The Inside Story of Instagram, and
Speaker 2: she joins us from the San Francisco Bureau. Sarah, thanks
Speaker 2: so much for coming on, and uh, pick your poison
Speaker 2: for me here in terms of hot takes to tell
Speaker 2: me about Threads, what do we need to know?
Speaker 3: I mean, the most incredible thing is just the amount
Speaker 3: of attention. It's getting the amount of people who who
Speaker 3: actually wanted Meta to copy a product this time and
Speaker 3: are signing up and trying it out, and the engagement there,
Speaker 3: the amount of people who are are posting and replying
Speaker 3: and following people like there is there is pent up
Speaker 3: demand for this thing, which is which you know, I
Speaker 3: expect it a little bit, but to see it in
Speaker 3: action is another thing. And then and then you know,
Speaker 3: it just goes to show that having that existing network,
Speaker 3: that existing Instagram network that they can connect to this
Speaker 3: new product really made a difference. We've seen so many
Speaker 3: Twitter competitors, We've seen Blue Sky mass it on posts
Speaker 3: t too. Like the list goes on, and this is
Speaker 3: the one where people don't have to do as much
Speaker 3: work to get started because they can port over what
Speaker 3: they already have from Instagram, and that barrier to entry
Speaker 3: is really making a big difference. Frustrating some people for sure,
Speaker 3: but for others, cutting down the time to make this
Speaker 3: useful by a lot.
Speaker 2: Well, Sara, you bring up such a great point that
Speaker 2: this is perhaps the first time that people wanted Meta
Speaker 2: to copy something. Obviously, what comes to mind is when
Speaker 2: they copied Snapchat through Instagram Stories, rolling out. This has
Speaker 2: happened time and time again with them. What do you
Speaker 2: think was the catalyst behind users being so excited about
Speaker 2: this copycat move? Is it because of Elon's takeover of Twitter?
Speaker 2: Or have people been itching for a better version of
Speaker 2: Twitter for a while.
Speaker 3: Now it's because of the takeover, no doubt, I mean,
Speaker 3: and that is what I've been hearing from my sources,
Speaker 3: is it came down to the celebrities and brands and
Speaker 3: folks who were relying on Twitter who have become solutions
Speaker 3: with a lot of the changes that Musk has has
Speaker 3: brought upon it, whether it's it's technical difficulties, like over
Speaker 3: the weekend he was limiting the amount of posts that
Speaker 3: people could see. There are still rate limits on Twitter,
Speaker 3: or the content moderation changes. He's losing the rules. He's
Speaker 3: made it more possible to see violent content, content that
Speaker 3: could be harmful or hateful, and people don't Brands, for one,
Speaker 3: don't want to be in that kind of environment, and
Speaker 3: they've been asking Meta for an alternative. So here we are.
Speaker 3: And I think that building off Instagram is smart because
Speaker 3: on Instagram you do have those two billion users and
Speaker 3: you have that existing network of public figures, celebrities, influencers,
Speaker 3: people in the music industry and the sports industry that
Speaker 3: can all easily pourt over to Threads as a starting
Speaker 3: light for this new community. The big thing that we're
Speaker 3: looking at now is not just does the launch because
Speaker 3: it's possible to get a launch right and create a fad,
Speaker 3: but does it create a habit when you have news
Speaker 3: to share, when you have a thought, when you have
Speaker 3: a good meme, are you opening up Twitter first or
Speaker 3: are you opening up Threads or neither?
Speaker 4: Are you?
Speaker 3: Are you just over this now?
Speaker 5: So Sar for someone who really understands this space, I mean,
Speaker 5: how do you see it? And I'm assuming you've played
Speaker 5: with threads? So give us an idea of what it's
Speaker 5: like and could it possibly be a real threat to Twitter?
Speaker 3: Well, I definitely think that it could, not just because
Speaker 3: of the Twitter users coming over, but because they're also
Speaker 3: answering a need that I think Instagram and Meta users
Speaker 3: have right now. If you think about how Meta and
Speaker 3: Instagram if sorry, Facebook and Instagram have changed over the
Speaker 3: past couple of years, It's become more about content from
Speaker 3: people that you don't follow, who aren't your friends. It's
Speaker 3: become more about video more about reels, those short form
Speaker 3: videos that are meant to copy TikTok. It's more of
Speaker 3: a passive experience. It's more about entertainment. And so the
Speaker 3: thing that excites me about Threads is it a place
Speaker 3: where people can actually share their thoughts again on social media,
Speaker 3: and sharing your thoughts on social media only works to
Speaker 3: a certain point when people have communities that are nice
Speaker 3: and small, like they used to have on Instagram and Facebook.
Speaker 3: It's very easy to be personal. But when your community
Speaker 3: balloons into you know, thousands of people, then you don't
Speaker 3: want to be personal anymore, and especially as you start
Speaker 3: to use those those profiles for professional reasons. I think
Speaker 3: that a lot of activity has been moving to group chat,
Speaker 3: and then that kind of more public facing activity I
Speaker 3: think will move to Threads.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like once the adults enter, it no longer
Speaker 2: becomes a safe space, which is what we've seen TikTok
Speaker 2: kind of be used for. Sarah talk to me about
Speaker 2: what happens if Threads goes the way of Facebook and
Speaker 2: sort of becomes seen as a platform for people who
Speaker 2: are perhaps in an older demographic to kind of air
Speaker 2: out their hot takes on politics and things like that.
Speaker 2: Do you foresee that happening? And how is meta gonna
Speaker 2: hedge against that?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 3: I think I think Listen, every network has a demographic
Speaker 3: that they start with, and I think right now, because
Speaker 3: Threads is built off of Instagram, it's going to very
Speaker 3: closely mirror who uses Instagram.
Speaker 2: Excuse me, Yeah, that's a really good point. Actually, because
Speaker 2: the users are younger, they might be they might be
Speaker 2: able to kind of keep the Instagram audience as opposed
Speaker 2: to catching more of the Facebook audience, which is aiming
Speaker 2: a little bit older.
Speaker 3: So I do think that Instagram is becoming a little
Speaker 3: bit older, It is becoming more of a a you know,
Speaker 3: millennial demographic place. But a new program, a new place
Speaker 3: to share is always going to catch on with people
Speaker 3: who want to build a following.
Speaker 5: But I do wonder, you know, it's interesting because I
Speaker 5: think about, you know, Maddie, that we're so entrenched on
Speaker 5: the news business that Twitter is fun. I find it
Speaker 5: really fun and helpful when when stories are coming out,
Speaker 5: And I do wonder, you know, Sarah, would potentially Threads
Speaker 5: be as useful in that regard for folks like us.
Speaker 3: Well, that all comes down to the habit that we build.
Speaker 3: If people start sharing news there, if they start sharing
Speaker 3: their insights there, if that becomes a place that we
Speaker 3: have to go see competitors and what they're doing, we
Speaker 3: will be there too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, do you think Elon's ticked? I wonder if Elon's
Speaker 7: ticked about this?
Speaker 5: I wonder, you know, the Elon zuck thing, you know,
Speaker 5: I just wish they would go to the mats and
Speaker 5: just you.
Speaker 7: Know, take it to find it out. Do you think
Speaker 7: Elon's a little little myft here?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? I mean I think you know, we saw a
Speaker 3: report by Semaphore just now that that Elon's lawyer is
Speaker 3: threatening to sue Meta metas as some the claims in
Speaker 3: that letter are are not valid. So this is just
Speaker 3: the beginning. I mean, we asked for a cage match.
Speaker 3: This is the business version of the Elon Musk Mark
Speaker 3: Zuckerberg cage match. They are certainly seeing each other as
Speaker 3: rivals in this moment.
Speaker 7: God gotta love this.
Speaker 5: Sarah Friar's so glad we could check in with her.
Speaker 5: She's our big tech team leader.
Speaker 7: Here at Bloomberg News.
Speaker 5: Her book No Filter or the Inside Story of Instagram,
Speaker 5: so she really understands the space. But in particular Facebook,
Speaker 5: Meta Instagram and how this continues to evolve. And I
Speaker 5: guess time will tell what everybody signs up for it.
Speaker 5: Why haven't you signed up for your like social queen.
Speaker 2: No, it's completely like I was in DC yesterday. I'm
Speaker 2: blaming it on that, but I think I also, like,
Speaker 2: really don't want to have to do another one.
Speaker 7: Well that's the thing, but I.
Speaker 2: Have to, so I just need to do it.
Speaker 7: We're just good, I.
Speaker 5: Know, right right, But I agree with you, it's just
Speaker 5: like another thing to keep up.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
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Speaker 8: May not then like the main not then like the thing?
Speaker 7: All right, everybody. Carol Master along with Madison Mills live.
Speaker 5: Here in our Boomberg Interactive Broker Studio on YouTube.
Speaker 7: And of course Bloomberger Originals.
Speaker 9: Well.
Speaker 5: The Private Real Estate Strategy via Liquid Reads etf at
Speaker 5: launched last month a little change, I believe, since it's.
Speaker 7: Debut on June fourteenth.
Speaker 5: When I before the market clothes, I was looking at
Speaker 5: it versus about a one point eight percent return in
Speaker 5: the Dow Jones Equity red Total Return Index. Not necessary
Speaker 5: apples to apples, but just to give you a little
Speaker 5: bit of a measure. The actively managed GTF investment apartments,
Speaker 5: single family rentals, manufactured housing, and senior housing reads. So
Speaker 5: with more on the fund and the strategy, we were
Speaker 5: delighted to have with us David Auerback, he's managing director
Speaker 5: at Armada ETF Advisors. Here in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker studio.
Speaker 5: Forget me, forgive me.
Speaker 7: I'm rushing to get to you. Welcome, Welcome, Thank you
Speaker 7: so much.
Speaker 4: Time to vibe into reads.
Speaker 5: Now, let's vibe into reads. I love real estate and
Speaker 5: it was interesting at Milkin this year. I did a
Speaker 5: panel that was just about basically focusing on office real
Speaker 5: estate and trying to get an idea, and we heard
Speaker 5: a lot about if you're at a top tier property,
Speaker 5: you're probably okay, but lower tier it might be having
Speaker 5: some problems. Talk to us, though, David, about your strategy.
Speaker 10: Sure, so private real estate and the private real estate
Speaker 10: strategy b I like with RETTF is more than residential. Right,
Speaker 10: We're taking the portfolios of the largest private real estate
Speaker 10: sponsors Blackstone, star Wood, and we can replicate those portfolios
Speaker 10: using publicly traded reads down to the percentage in terms
Speaker 10: of sector type and geographic location. So if you look
Speaker 10: at the weighted average of those portfolios, it's more than
Speaker 10: half over fifty percent in residential in those sectors. Twenty
Speaker 10: five percent or so it's an industrial, and then you've
Speaker 10: got several percent that are in sectors such as data centers, lodging,
Speaker 10: office and lab space, strip centers. It kind of sprands
Speaker 10: across all the other real estate sectors. Remember, these guys
Speaker 10: have assembled very smart management team rights building great portfolio.
Speaker 7: So you're like, they did the work, let me just
Speaker 7: mimic well.
Speaker 4: Using publicly traded reads.
Speaker 10: So the reason is really there's three issues that are
Speaker 10: at stake here, cost, liquidity, and the valuation cost.
Speaker 4: The average private.
Speaker 10: Real estate fund. When you add in the layered investment fees,
Speaker 10: including the management fee, the selling and servicing fee, the
Speaker 10: annual performance the performance fee over a certain hurdle return,
Speaker 10: those can have to be about three and a half
Speaker 10: percent a year for an average investor. Those fees add
Speaker 10: up liquidity. We've seen the headlines about the private responsors
Speaker 10: where investors can't get their money out. They've gated redemptions
Speaker 10: versus an ETF go ahead.
Speaker 5: So when you're active, you're actively managed, So you're picking
Speaker 5: what you want to do, but you're not going above
Speaker 5: and beyond.
Speaker 7: You're trusting what they are.
Speaker 10: Well, they disclosed their portfolios and a quarterly basis, so
Speaker 10: we can use their portfolios. But one example, there are
Speaker 10: no more student housing reads in the public market. So
Speaker 10: because of that, we can allocate that percentage towards another
Speaker 10: publicly traded residential rate, or we could use our know
Speaker 10: how and our expertise to potentially allocate it towards let's
Speaker 10: say a company like VICH Properties in Las Vegas that
Speaker 10: owns the Las Vegas Strip.
Speaker 4: That's another way to diversify.
Speaker 2: So what are the clients looking for and what are
Speaker 2: they asking you?
Speaker 4: Well, that's a great question.
Speaker 10: Clients are looking for yield, I mean, especially in this market,
Speaker 10: in this volatile you know, real estate tried and true,
Speaker 10: the long term performance of real estate, where they're looking
Speaker 10: for a good opportunity. We feel that PRVT could either
Speaker 10: be a good compliment to that private real estate allocation.
Speaker 10: But more importantly, it goes back to the third point,
Speaker 10: which is valuation. The valuation gap between the listed rates
Speaker 10: and the private real estate funds has never been wider,
Speaker 10: and there's recent reports out of NAYREATE, the National Association
Speaker 10: of Real Estate Investment Trusts, that shows that that divergence
Speaker 10: does come back, and the larger the divergence, basically, the
Speaker 10: more significance of the performance of the listed reads coming
Speaker 10: out of that divergence. So we feel right now, because
Speaker 10: of this wide delta, it's the perfect time for investors
Speaker 10: to pivot towards those listed.
Speaker 7: Reads because there's opportunity.
Speaker 4: Because there's opportunities, so prop it on that gap.
Speaker 10: But it's for advisors, it's for investors, high net worth investors,
Speaker 10: institutional guys. It's giving everybody a chance to play into
Speaker 10: the listed reed market. David net Worth specifically, no, no,
Speaker 10: not necessarily high net worth. Again, the average investor who
Speaker 10: may be shut out of the private reads could benefit
Speaker 10: from these smart management teams and use a publicly traded
Speaker 10: red proxy that represents those portfolios.
Speaker 7: Two things.
Speaker 5: So you said twenty five percent industrial fifty residences, and
Speaker 5: then twenty five percent was like a mix of commercial.
Speaker 4: It would be several other sectors that's correct.
Speaker 5: Can you play around with those or is that the
Speaker 5: is that the percentage?
Speaker 10: We can play around this, but again we're using the
Speaker 10: private real estate sponsors kind of as the bogie.
Speaker 4: So as they update their.
Speaker 10: Quarterly holdings, like as a good example, one of the
Speaker 10: guys is selling a big portfolio, like two thirds of
Speaker 10: their portfolio of single family rentals, one of the publicly
Speaker 10: traded reads is rumored to be buying it. You guys
Speaker 10: published a story on it, and so as a result,
Speaker 10: as that private read sponsor allocation reduces in single family
Speaker 10: rental overall, our portfolio may change a little.
Speaker 4: Bit of you're going to mimic it, because we're going
Speaker 4: to try to mimic it.
Speaker 7: How much money is coming in.
Speaker 10: We just launched a few weeks ago, so we're you know, hovering,
Speaker 10: you know, a few hundred thousand dollars. We think that
Speaker 10: again because of what's these private responsors have over eighty plus.
Speaker 4: Billion dollars of assets into them. If you add including the.
Speaker 10: Leverage and that they properties they own, you're talking one
Speaker 10: hundred and fifty plus million dollars of real estate that
Speaker 10: these guys are sitting on. There's a huge opportunity for
Speaker 10: the average investor to benefit from those private real estate funds.
Speaker 2: Talk to me about office reads. Have we seen a
Speaker 2: bottom yet?
Speaker 10: Well, you know, it's a good good example is kind
Speaker 10: of what we saw last week with SA Green announcing
Speaker 10: that minority station.
Speaker 4: Two billion dollar price to their balance sheet.
Speaker 7: And just for the industry.
Speaker 4: Overall here and you know again and not to not
Speaker 4: to forty five Park.
Speaker 10: When you think of trophy office buildings in Manhattan, personally,
Speaker 10: two forty five Park is not the first property you
Speaker 10: think of. You think of one Vandor built, the GM building,
Speaker 10: the Empire State Building, right, And so I've been saying, look,
Speaker 10: if they're vowing two forty five at Park, it two
Speaker 10: doing and I'm sure there's numbers that are going to
Speaker 10: that number. How much does the Empire State Building work?
Speaker 9: Right?
Speaker 7: It was a good sign.
Speaker 4: And the other thing.
Speaker 10: Is these guys have deep sponsors. Remember you have Government
Speaker 10: of Singapore, candid Pension, more Trust Asian investors. These guys
Speaker 10: have a long term vision of the value of these properties,
Speaker 10: and so you know it's an odd lot for them.
Speaker 5: David, I want to ask you about the time and
Speaker 5: Maddie and I have spent so much time today you's
Speaker 5: certainly talking about the move up in rates again and
Speaker 5: the concerns here, and the FED expected to probably raise
Speaker 5: rates again at the next meeting and then probably hover
Speaker 5: for a while.
Speaker 7: So how does that.
Speaker 5: Necessarily like I think real estate, and I think about
Speaker 5: the costs of servicing for these properties, and you know,
Speaker 5: depending on how much leverage is certainly into it too,
Speaker 5: So is that problematic potentially?
Speaker 10: You know, I want a caution that a read is
Speaker 10: not a read is not a read. There are so
Speaker 10: many different sectors that are out there that using a
Speaker 10: cell phone have a conversation. What does the FED raising
Speaker 10: interest rates next month have to do with a cell
Speaker 10: tower rate and having a conversation? Or if you place
Speaker 10: an order on your cell phone from Amazon and that
Speaker 10: utilizes three different reate sectors in case you didn't know,
Speaker 10: industrial rates, data center reds, and a tower read Right,
Speaker 10: how does that transaction impacted by the FED raising interest rates?
Speaker 5: And the answer is prob So you have a lot
Speaker 5: of residential is residential, but again that doesn't get impact.
Speaker 10: But that benefits the single family rental players, the rental landlords.
Speaker 10: In fact, we're sitting in one of the hottest apartment
Speaker 10: markets in the country right now in New York City.
Speaker 10: So as a result, because the demand.
Speaker 4: Is through the roof.
Speaker 10: If you're in the market for a seven percent mortgage,
Speaker 10: that's the new normal that's out there right now. But
Speaker 10: at the end of the day, there's simply not enough
Speaker 10: housing inventory for want be buyers that are out there.
Speaker 10: You're not concerned, I would say, we're minimally concerned.
Speaker 4: It's again, we have to focus on the long term picture.
Speaker 7: Recession. Would that be more problematic? Potentially?
Speaker 4: Again depends on the sector and the story.
Speaker 2: Okay, to what extent do you envision your client changing
Speaker 2: as it gets harder and harder for work young folks
Speaker 2: like myself to ever buy a home.
Speaker 10: I think again, from the rental perspective, the single family
Speaker 10: landlords that are out there that are growing their portfolios nationwide,
Speaker 10: are gearing those portfolios towards the next generation. The apartments
Speaker 10: that are being developed right now, it's not gear really
Speaker 10: for you know who's there now. It's for the coming
Speaker 10: in college crowd that's going to be out there. It's
Speaker 10: that next wave of demand. If you think about it,
Speaker 10: if you take a you know, a Class B property
Speaker 10: put on a flatbed in New York and drop it
Speaker 10: off in Farga and North Dakota. That's a Class A
Speaker 10: property up there. So you're bringing that desirable product to
Speaker 10: where that puck is going. And so as a result,
Speaker 10: until we see a massive reset in New York prices,
Speaker 10: and sorry to be the bear bad news, I don't
Speaker 10: think we're going to be seeing something affordable. You know,
Speaker 10: sadly there are people in New York that rent their
Speaker 10: entire lives that don't get to achieve the American dream.
Speaker 10: But you can rent from a single family landlord have
Speaker 10: that four four bedroom, three bathroom house and even though
Speaker 10: you're paying the rent to the landlord instead.
Speaker 5: If you had to say the hottest play in real
Speaker 5: estate right now, what would you say?
Speaker 10: Probably in Dush because we had this price point with
Speaker 10: pro Logist in Blackstone earlier this week.
Speaker 7: So data or warehousing or a little bit, I think.
Speaker 4: A little bit of both.
Speaker 10: I still think the growth of towers and data centers,
Speaker 10: especially with how much.
Speaker 4: We're doing more and more online.
Speaker 10: I mean, I use, I watched Bloomberg twenty four seven,
Speaker 10: so I'm using my internet stream that you know, if
Speaker 10: I place some all flows up through the south to
Speaker 10: the towers, all.
Speaker 6: Right, we got to run.
Speaker 5: David, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 7: Let'sen know how it goes.
Speaker 5: David our Back, managing director at Armada ETF Advisors.
Speaker 7: Here in studio.
Speaker 1: Right here on Bloomberg, you're listening to the Bloomberg Business
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Speaker 5: You remember all the regional banking turmoil that we saw
Speaker 5: back in March, I mean it was a lot. Now
Speaker 5: the FED is still thinking about it. We know that
Speaker 5: Maddie SVB coming up in yesterday's FOMC meeting minutes with
Speaker 5: credit tightening among the Fed's concerns when they look at
Speaker 5: the overall economy. Our next guest says, there are better
Speaker 5: alternatives to traditional banks, and I have to say, Matt
Speaker 5: Miller came over and it's like you're gonna love David Dindie.
Speaker 5: He is co founder and CEO of Atomic invest. They
Speaker 5: provide an investment platform to third party companies that offer
Speaker 5: up digital investment advice. He joins us on Zoom from Vienna, Austria. David,
Speaker 5: it's a pleasure to have you here with Maddie and myself.
Speaker 7: Welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit about your company and your platform,
Speaker 5: who is using it, what it does, give us some background,
Speaker 5: if you would.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 11: So we provide wide labeled wealth management and treasury management
Speaker 11: services to FinTechs, banks.
Speaker 4: And credit unions.
Speaker 11: So that's to say, if you're a fintech and you're
Speaker 11: looking to offer treasury solutions to make it very easy
Speaker 11: for companies to invest in money market funds and tea boilts,
Speaker 11: we would essentially provide you with infrastructure as well as
Speaker 11: the regulatory solutions to be able to offer that use
Speaker 11: case to your customers.
Speaker 5: This is for investors, but is it also for somebody
Speaker 5: who runs a business you provide these services?
Speaker 11: Well, we operate in a B to B to be
Speaker 11: manor or B to be so we help both individual
Speaker 11: investors as well as institutional investors and corporations to manage
Speaker 11: their assets.
Speaker 2: And are you seeing a lot of global demand, particularly
Speaker 2: from emerging markets. I feel like that's a space that's
Speaker 2: becoming increasingly interested in this.
Speaker 11: Yes, We're seeing a lot of demand not only in
Speaker 11: the US, but also in Latin in specificuristictions like Brazil
Speaker 11: and Argentina. We're also seeing quite a bit of demand
Speaker 11: in the Apec region as well to be able to
Speaker 11: get access to US securities as well as US treasuries.
Speaker 7: So give us an example.
Speaker 5: I'm thinking of somebody's listening, so how they would use
Speaker 5: your platform specifically.
Speaker 11: So you would go to one of our partners. We
Speaker 11: have close to fifty partners today, and you'd be able
Speaker 11: to onboard through their interface. And through their interface, you'll
Speaker 11: also be able to purchase stocks if you're looking to
Speaker 11: trade inequities, or to purchase tea belts if you're looking
Speaker 11: to trade in tea bolts, and so the interface would
Speaker 11: really be owned by the partner, but the underlying service
Speaker 11: provider is atomic enabling those individuals to purchase securities in
Speaker 11: that respect.
Speaker 7: Why did you start this business? I am curious what
Speaker 7: you saw.
Speaker 5: Or Levine, who was on a co founder of Ways, said,
Speaker 5: you know, figure out the problem and then go create
Speaker 5: a solution. So what was the problem in that you
Speaker 5: thought you could do better?
Speaker 11: Well, I'm originally from Kenya and in Austria, and moved
Speaker 11: to the States, and in places like Kenya, it's very
Speaker 11: difficult to get access to the capital markets the same
Speaker 11: way you can get access to the capital markets in
Speaker 11: the US. And so we built Atomic with the mission
Speaker 11: of making wealth building accessible to every single human being
Speaker 11: and realize that the best way to actually actually accomplish
Speaker 11: this mission is not by providing our services directly to individuals,
Speaker 11: but instead by partnering with companies that are already serving thousands,
Speaker 11: if not millions of customers and making it very easy
Speaker 11: for them to deliver these value propositions to them. And
Speaker 11: so we found it automically on the basis of how
Speaker 11: can we make wealth building a lot more accessible to everyone,
Speaker 11: regardless of where you are and regardless of where you're
Speaker 11: starting from.
Speaker 2: And like you said, you're already doing that work in
Speaker 2: the US. Can you talk to me about a partnership
Speaker 2: that's been particularly meaningful to you and your work so far.
Speaker 11: Yes, So we actually power a number of the treasury
Speaker 11: management platforms in the US today. This was particularly meaningful,
Speaker 11: especially in light of the sub crisis, where many individuals
Speaker 11: and many companies software different alternative providers for them to
Speaker 11: be able to park their assets and so in that
Speaker 11: space we power companies ranging from early stage treasury management
Speaker 11: platforms as well as lead stage business banking and business
Speaker 11: band management platforms.
Speaker 5: You know what's interesting too, and you know, in talking
Speaker 5: with Matt a little bit, knowing that you were coming on,
Speaker 5: I was curious about for individuals moving into their brokerage,
Speaker 5: the safety security versus what we perceive as the safety
Speaker 5: security of kind of your traditional banking and banks.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 11: I think one of the benefits of custoding assets with
Speaker 11: a broker dealer as opposed to custoding.
Speaker 4: Assets with a bank, is that you have.
Speaker 11: The ability to hold your assets in government securities like
Speaker 11: tea builts, where your capital is fully backed by the
Speaker 11: US government. This stands in contrast to the limited protections
Speaker 11: that you would get through FDIC insurance with a back.
Speaker 11: If you're a small depositor, let's say you're a retail
Speaker 11: investor with several thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars
Speaker 11: in deposits, it's not that big of an issue. But
Speaker 11: if you're a large depositor holding millions of dollars, only
Speaker 11: having two hundred and fifty thousand dollars insured is something
Speaker 11: that is risky, and so we think that the better
Speaker 11: alternative for large depositors to cost their assets is with
Speaker 11: providers like broker dealers, where they have the ability to
Speaker 11: invest directly in these securities where their capital is fully banned.
Speaker 2: Have you seen any change in the demand for your
Speaker 2: platform following the collapse of SVB and also because of
Speaker 2: like exactly what you're saying, the renewed interest and importance
Speaker 2: of the FDIC regulations there.
Speaker 11: Yes, and the aftermath of the crisis, we've seen significant
Speaker 11: shift in how custody is performed, where many people are
Speaker 11: actually moving away from commercial banks towards broker dealers as
Speaker 11: well as mutual fund companies. I just saw a stat
Speaker 11: recently that about one trillion dollars of assets have left
Speaker 11: commercial banks in the last four months to these alternative
Speaker 11: custody providers. And I think this is really driven by
Speaker 11: three main things. The first is, as we talked about, safety,
Speaker 11: being able to ensure that your full capital is protected.
Speaker 11: The second is yield with interest rates, where there are
Speaker 11: today investing in fixed income and in government securities can
Speaker 11: give you five percent return, which is significantly larger than
Speaker 11: what most commercial banks are providing. And the third is
Speaker 11: just ux in the sense that many FinTechs that we
Speaker 11: partner with have a product focused approach where they're able
Speaker 11: to deliver a really unique experience that makes it very
Speaker 11: easy for commercial depositors to solve their issues in a
Speaker 11: self service way, an area where traditionally commercial banks have
Speaker 11: not been as strong in.
Speaker 5: So, David, did you directly though, see it uptick in
Speaker 5: terms of applications or use or demand of your platform
Speaker 5: in the wake of SVB and a handful of other
Speaker 5: financial institutions in the regional banking space, the collapse.
Speaker 11: Of Yes, we quadruple the number of customers that we
Speaker 11: serve really in that post SVB, we'll also double the
Speaker 11: total assets that we manage. And in light of the
Speaker 11: SMB crisis, we've also had a number of partnerships that
Speaker 11: have formed with other business banking and B to B
Speaker 11: platforms that are now looking to leverage our infrastructure to
Speaker 11: be able to offer a different, alternative, different custody model
Speaker 11: to their customers.
Speaker 5: Can I ask you where the biggest activity level is happening.
Speaker 5: Is it US develop markets or is it in the
Speaker 5: developing world.
Speaker 11: So we're seeing hotspots in the US because very high there,
Speaker 11: we're also seeing hotspots in Brazil.
Speaker 4: Brazil has its own.
Speaker 11: Unique characteristics related to how people perceive holding assets and
Speaker 11: dollars versus holding assets in REI. We're also starting to
Speaker 11: see optics in the EU and in the UK as
Speaker 11: a result of most recent rate hikes by the ECB
Speaker 11: as well as the Central Bank of England, and.
Speaker 2: Really quickly here. How big do you see not just fintech,
Speaker 2: but your firm specifically getting.
Speaker 11: That's a good question. I do think that there is
Speaker 11: a world in which our firm and the companies that
Speaker 11: work with us introduce a novel approach to custody that
Speaker 11: can rival the traditional forms of custody today.
Speaker 4: So the ability to.
Speaker 11: Pull assets in a safe, secure manner, I think that
Speaker 11: model itself is something that can span not only in
Speaker 11: the US, but also in other jurisdictions. As we're seeing today, I.
Speaker 7: Mean as big as big as a JP Morgan or
Speaker 7: a city.
Speaker 11: Well, I will say that, I would say that just
Speaker 11: given what we're seeing, and given the types of platforms
Speaker 11: that we're partnered with, I wouldn't be surprised if in
Speaker 11: several years time we will receive will end up being
Speaker 11: as large as those institutions.
Speaker 5: Well, so appreciate getting some time with you. David Dindy,
Speaker 5: co founder and chief executive officer of Atomic Invest on
Speaker 5: Zoom from Vienna.
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Speaker 6: Well.
Speaker 5: One story definitely caught our attention on this Thursday. It's
Speaker 5: about anti woke brands and the platform helping to get
Speaker 5: their message and products out to consumers. This was really
Speaker 5: on your radar in a big way, Maddie.
Speaker 2: Well, I love this story so much because it points
Speaker 2: to the perfect kind of threading between the worlds that
Speaker 2: I love to live in of politics and business, and
Speaker 2: they're increasingly getting closer and closer.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a really.
Speaker 5: Good way to put it, all, right, So let's get
Speaker 5: to it. Joining us with more on the story that
Speaker 5: was written by Clara Hudson and David Hood. David, by
Speaker 5: the way, is Bloomberg Law Senior reporter, and he's on
Speaker 5: Zoom from Washington DC David, First up, what do you
Speaker 5: consider an ant First of all, thank you for being here.
Speaker 7: Maddie.
Speaker 5: On our morning call this morning, she's like, we gotta
Speaker 5: do the story. We gotta do the story, and she
Speaker 5: was right. So an anti woke brand.
Speaker 8: First of all, well, thanks for having me and thanks
Speaker 8: thanks for the read. Uh yeah, I mean they come
Speaker 8: in in all sorts of forms, right, but but the
Speaker 8: common thread, the common thread is sort of a a
Speaker 8: stance against anti e s G or environmental social corporate governance.
Speaker 8: Uh uh, I guess perspective, and it's it's what makes
Speaker 8: these brands is like I think it's it comes down
Speaker 8: to about three things. One is like the sort of
Speaker 8: marketing market themselves is like pro America, pro family, pro conservative,
Speaker 8: like these very conservative values, and that's that's the one thing.
Speaker 8: But they're also want to they also push back against
Speaker 8: when I say anti e SG really talking about diversity,
Speaker 8: equity and inclusion. I really think that that companies that
Speaker 8: have DEI programs or the initiatives or the use ESG
Speaker 8: to to to evaluate risk in their businesses is really
Speaker 8: imposing an ideology. That's how they view ESG. And so
Speaker 8: when you see anti woke that really just means like
Speaker 8: they don't want it's to impose their beliefs on use customers,
Speaker 8: et cetera.
Speaker 2: We saw this with Target and with bud Light recently, right,
Speaker 2: So I know that this has been on your radar
Speaker 2: obviously before them, but just as a reminder to folks,
Speaker 2: Target had a lot of trouble with their Pride products
Speaker 2: over the summer, employees getting harassed, and also bud Light
Speaker 2: obviously has been a huge financial declines following their work
Speaker 2: with Dylan mulvany, a trans content creator who recently said
Speaker 2: that she had no has not heard from bud Light
Speaker 2: since all of the kind of controversy surrounding her. So, David,
Speaker 2: going back to you here to what extent, is this
Speaker 2: a move against some of these classic American brands going
Speaker 2: closer and closer to a more diverse and inclusive product offering,
Speaker 2: brand offering versus you know, people wanting to specifically go
Speaker 2: to a conservative company. Is it more just choosing an alternative?
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, I mean the the alternative or parallel
Speaker 8: economy as as some folks called it. It was really
Speaker 8: born out of there's nowhere else to go. Like these
Speaker 8: companies they see as customers don't represent them and don't
Speaker 8: represent them, whether it be because of Pride Month or
Speaker 8: because of you know, merchandise, or because of from an
Speaker 8: employee's perspective, it's having to sit through DEI trainings or whatever.
Speaker 8: It's like they feel like that these companies don't represent
Speaker 8: them anymore, and there's nowhere for them to go because
Speaker 8: they're really looking for validation. We're looking for validation of
Speaker 8: their values of who they are, their identities and so
Speaker 8: and so that that's sort of created a sort of
Speaker 8: market opportunity, uh, to create alternatives.
Speaker 5: And well, so let's let's let's get to it, because
Speaker 5: you've got about three minutes left, and where you talk
Speaker 5: about and you talk about one company, Old Guard, which
Speaker 5: was a pet food company and basically was nutritious product,
Speaker 5: nutritious products created with traditional American value. So maybe it
Speaker 5: wasn't so concerned about the.
Speaker 7: Environment or vegan or what have you.
Speaker 5: But they used a platform called Public Square.
Speaker 7: Tell us about that, because.
Speaker 8: That's yeah, public Square. Public Square is uh, you know,
Speaker 8: when they stumbled across Public Square. That's really, from as
Speaker 8: far as we know, is like the largest sort of
Speaker 8: collection of these of these businesses and it's going it's
Speaker 8: going public via vias back next quarter. It's it's grown
Speaker 8: to about a million customers and it's got about fifty
Speaker 8: thousand of these businesses. And to sign up on the
Speaker 8: platform from the businesses, they have to you have to
Speaker 8: sort of sign a pledge of like sort of like
Speaker 8: a five point pledge, and they they consider those to
Speaker 8: be sort of pro America, pro family. I think one
Speaker 8: of them is like defending the Constitution, or another one
Speaker 8: is fighting for the sanctity of life. And and so
Speaker 8: Public Square Public Square is a massive collection of these
Speaker 8: of of these companies. I mean there are banks, there
Speaker 8: are insurance companies, there are asset manager, there's there's coffee companies.
Speaker 8: There's this dog food company, there's I mean, there's there's
Speaker 8: clothing brands. I mean, it's it's you think of it.
Speaker 8: It's probably on on Public Square platforms, right, yeah, yes, yes,
Speaker 8: exactly exactly. There's a there's a there's a job search
Speaker 8: and uh platform as well, and so it's it's it's
Speaker 8: this massive collection. And and when I talked to the CEO,
Speaker 8: Michael Seaffert, you know, he told me it's like it's
Speaker 8: that these companies and customers sort of come together to
Speaker 8: say that mainstream companies like Target, like Amazon, like bud
Speaker 8: Light have shifted leftward and they know long they no
Speaker 8: longer feel represented, and that sort of created this market
Speaker 8: opportunity and seaffert it's interesting.
Speaker 7: It's interesting.
Speaker 5: So it's another online shopping mall, as you say, and
Speaker 5: in the reporting you and Clara for the right leaning consumers.
Speaker 5: So h interesting, just another platform where folks who maybe
Speaker 5: are are tired of all the wokeness.
Speaker 7: Is that a word. I don't know if it's a word,
Speaker 7: but I get it. It's an alternative. It's an alternative. David,
Speaker 7: thank you so much.
Speaker 5: Glad we could bring this to our listeners and viewers.
Speaker 5: David Hood is senior reporter at Bloomberg News on Zoom
Speaker 5: from Washington, DC.
Speaker 7: But it is interesting. I get it, Maddie, right, It's
Speaker 7: just like another community.
Speaker 5: Yeah that maybe you feel more a lot or somebody
Speaker 5: feels more aligned with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's just moving closer and closer towards what
Speaker 2: he says in the story, belief driven buying is continuing.
Speaker 7: I love reffords, which I hadn't heard.
Speaker 5: Yeah driven, so well said, all right, anyways, find out
Speaker 5: more just head to Bloomberg dot Com.
Speaker 2: A bromackle, a journal now about you let me drive?
Speaker 1: No, no, honey, please, I'll do the gravel.
Speaker 4: Excuse mate, I want to drive.
Speaker 11: It's a good question time.
Speaker 1: This is the drive to the globe.
Speaker 4: Con trimular thing.
Speaker 1: Well Dad on Bloomberg.
Speaker 5: Radio, all right, everybody, just about seventeen minutes, seventeen and
Speaker 5: a half minutes to be exact.
Speaker 7: Left in today's creating session.
Speaker 5: Carol Mass along with Madison Mills live in our Bloomberg
Speaker 5: Interact and Broker Studio on YouTube and on Bloomberg Originals.
Speaker 5: And you know, Maddie, you know, we have seen a
Speaker 5: lot of pressure on the equity side of things, a
Speaker 5: bunch of selling, but we're off our lows. But we've
Speaker 5: really seen some big movements in treasury yields today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like that is the place to be
Speaker 2: right now, particularly when you look at the two year again,
Speaker 2: just those highs since two thousand and seven, which feels like,
Speaker 2: you know, it feels like when it's that high, it
Speaker 2: just seems like something's going on that I don't feel
Speaker 2: good about.
Speaker 5: It's definitely well, I'm definitely reacting though, to the good
Speaker 5: like labor data, right economic data. All right, let's see
Speaker 5: what Cole Smead has to say. He is president and
Speaker 5: portfolio manager at SMED Capital Management. He joins us on
Speaker 5: Zoom from Phoenix, Arizona. The Speed Value Fund is a
Speaker 5: top or four for the past five years in the
Speaker 5: ninety ninth percentile, returning on average twelve percent annually.
Speaker 7: In those five years.
Speaker 5: You to date the fund is up about three percent.
Speaker 5: Hay Smeed, I mean, hey Smeed, Sorry, Hey Cole. Nice
Speaker 5: to have you here with us on this Thursday. And
Speaker 5: I know you are really great on names, but is
Speaker 5: there a macro theme right now that you find is
Speaker 5: really interesting and that is guiding some of your investment decisions.
Speaker 9: Yeah, and thanks for having me. By the way, Carol,
Speaker 9: that's what my fraternity brothers might call me, so I
Speaker 9: appreciate that that's a familial statement. So yeah, I think
Speaker 9: there's a lot of confusion in the stock market, and
Speaker 9: we were just talking about this earlier today.
Speaker 6: Use the credit market as an example.
Speaker 9: If you look at the TRIPA a bond rate, you
Speaker 9: get paid in the mid fores I think it's four
Speaker 9: point seven, and if you go to short term treasures
Speaker 9: you get paid over five.
Speaker 6: That's riskless.
Speaker 9: The corporate bond rate is longer in term, but obviously
Speaker 9: there's more risk with that.
Speaker 6: It's a very strange world.
Speaker 9: Where people are really siding on a bed of either
Speaker 9: they're going to deal with lower rates, they're going to
Speaker 9: deal with low inflation, or not.
Speaker 6: It's either one or the other.
Speaker 9: And I think we find it really interesting because these
Speaker 9: problems are manifesting themselves not because of a weak economy.
Speaker 9: It's because of a horrendously strong economy. You mentioned the
Speaker 9: jobs data as an example to that. So I'm kind
Speaker 9: of working on an idea where this is Jay Powell syndrome.
Speaker 9: It's not the weakness of the economy like we dealt
Speaker 9: with in the twenty tens. It's the strength of the patient.
Speaker 9: And what it's doing is it's causing the strength of
Speaker 9: the patient to hurt other organs like the credit market
Speaker 9: plumbing and the bank plumbing that we've.
Speaker 6: Seen in the recent year.
Speaker 9: The weird part is, to your point just a second ago,
Speaker 9: I'm talking about markets, is it hasn't fully affected stock
Speaker 9: markets like it damage credit.
Speaker 6: And that's the interesting part.
Speaker 2: And Cole, that's what I want to follow up with
Speaker 2: you on because we saw record breaking first half of
Speaker 2: the year in terms of performance on the NASDAC and
Speaker 2: great performance in the S and P as well. What
Speaker 2: stops that catalyst in the second half of the year.
Speaker 9: Well, I think the rates do have a lot to
Speaker 9: do with it, because the Fed's blunt policy tool is
Speaker 9: price of money on the short end of the curve,
Speaker 9: with the long end of the curve set by markets.
Speaker 9: Ultimately more so now that QWE is disappearing. So the
Speaker 9: problem with that is though as we can see, you know,
Speaker 9: short term rates don't affect the labor market.
Speaker 6: They're having no effect on the labor market.
Speaker 9: They're really not having an effect on the overall economic
Speaker 9: growth picture. But what we do know is they can
Speaker 9: affect asset markets fairly quickly, and that's what we did see.
Speaker 9: So can you imagine a world where you could wake
Speaker 9: up getting paid six percent short term for ninety day
Speaker 9: paper from the US government? What does that cause you
Speaker 9: to look at other assets? And it becomes a game
Speaker 9: of opportunity costs in weighing those things against each other.
Speaker 9: It just doesn't bode well for risk assets and it
Speaker 9: will upset the apple cart because people have forgotten what
Speaker 9: that risk free return can do to asset prices because
Speaker 9: we haven't had a for so long.
Speaker 5: But it's amazing the resilience that we've seen, certainly on
Speaker 5: the equity side of things, pretty pretty remarkable. Having said that,
Speaker 5: you do make you know, picks within the equity universe. Coal,
Speaker 5: let's talk about it, because you do like energy stocks,
Speaker 5: both oil and gas in the US and Canada and
Speaker 5: some coal stocks in Australia and South Africa.
Speaker 7: Is it just that supply demand? Ultimately when it comes
Speaker 7: to energy going forward.
Speaker 6: It is Carol.
Speaker 9: But also I think the underlying assumption again, what do
Speaker 9: you have to assume based on what we're looking at
Speaker 9: in markets and things of that nature. The main assumption
Speaker 9: made by a lot of market participants in it and
Speaker 9: a lot of economists in central government planners is that
Speaker 9: we really have too much energy. The world we're going
Speaker 9: to in the future is going to require a lot less.
Speaker 9: Therefore the price of these things should be fairly low.
Speaker 9: And the risk in my lifetime has never been, you know,
Speaker 9: we have too much, it's that we have too little.
Speaker 9: And so again we're breaking all of economic history to
Speaker 9: say that we have too much energy.
Speaker 6: You know, be fruitful multiplies subdue the earth and have.
Speaker 9: Dominion was the mandate that God laid out, and I
Speaker 9: find it interesting that his creation thinks that we need less,
Speaker 9: so we think energy solves that. But also it's a
Speaker 9: difference of the Western world versus the emerging world. In
Speaker 9: the emerging world, available energy supply for your electricity day
Speaker 9: to day would be really great to have. It just
Speaker 9: doesn't happen in the West. We're so wealthy that we
Speaker 9: can choose our energy supply. That's a different problem to have.
Speaker 9: I think we ultimately have Western wealth looking at the
Speaker 9: rest of the world and dictating terms that probably won't
Speaker 9: be sustained or met in the other parts of the world.
Speaker 2: Can you talk specific names with me for the energy
Speaker 2: space I'm thinking today in particular, Exxon really struggling. Do
Speaker 2: you look at news like that and think this is
Speaker 2: a day to buy?
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 9: So we think the biggot, the big majors broadly, whether
Speaker 9: we're talking Europe or the US, are the most unattractive
Speaker 9: because if you're the large asset management shop, which we
Speaker 9: have these big asset managers that we've really never had.
Speaker 9: They want to go and buy a billion or two
Speaker 9: billion or five billion dollars of oil equities. Only certain
Speaker 9: names they can go to do that. And so the
Speaker 9: opportunity I think really sits in kind of like a
Speaker 9: sub say seventy billion or sub fifty billion dollar world
Speaker 9: where you can get plenty of liquidity for someone that
Speaker 9: likes big equities like us, but you're not paying the
Speaker 9: premium for that liquidity. So you know, we own names
Speaker 9: like Oventive, we own names like Apache APA, and in
Speaker 9: our US equity portfolio up in Canada, we've been buying
Speaker 9: the meg energies of the world, the so novass because
Speaker 9: we just get so so much more attractive terms as
Speaker 9: an investor, and it is not coming with balance sheet
Speaker 9: risk like it had prior. It's free cash flow, it's
Speaker 9: larger turn of equity. Yeah, and that's it's seventy dollars WTI.
Speaker 5: You're still in on Occidental and Konco Phillips, that's still.
Speaker 9: We still we own, still still own Oxy but Buffett
Speaker 9: buying that on a regular basis. There's just no question
Speaker 9: why would I buy it out if I can continue
Speaker 9: to let the open market allow me to buy this
Speaker 9: share of the company.
Speaker 5: Cole speaking supply demand Metrics and just got about thirty
Speaker 5: thirty five seconds here. You also, at least based on
Speaker 5: your late filings, d R Horton, NVR homebuilders still buying
Speaker 5: into that space.
Speaker 9: Yeah, we still own large stakes in those builders, NVR
Speaker 9: Lennar and Dr Horton. I mean, we just watched the
Speaker 9: rally that no one thought could be possible at over
Speaker 9: six percent mortgage rates. So what I love is the
Speaker 9: market was completely confused of that the credit market damage
Speaker 9: they thought was going to ruin housing, and yet the
Speaker 9: scarcity of housing wins overall.
Speaker 5: Yeah, really interesting, and I I think I saw a
Speaker 5: story earlier right about the mortgage mortgage market in particular
Speaker 5: rates in US jump climbing to the highest since November.
Speaker 5: So just watching that space as well.
Speaker 7: In the impact up. Hey call always fun or Smed?
Speaker 7: Can I call you Smed?
Speaker 5: I think he's saying yes, cal Speed. He's president portfolio
Speaker 5: manager at Smeed Capital Manager.
Speaker 7: Be well. Always good to get.
Speaker 5: Him on on Zoom from Phoenix, Arizona. Just about ten
Speaker 5: minutes left in the tree.
Speaker 6: This is Bloomberg.
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