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Speaker 1: M Hey y'all, this is Dr Joy from the Therapy

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Speaker 1: for Black Girls podcast, and this it's a booster session.

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Speaker 1: As a reminder, the information included is meant to be

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Speaker 1: educational and entertaining, but it is not a substitute for

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Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me for a very special bonus

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Speaker 1: episode of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. We'll jump

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Speaker 1: right in after a quick word from our sponsors. Earlier

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Speaker 1: this week, we chatted with Judas Sidora, a licensed marriage

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Speaker 1: and family therapist in Oregon, about the mental health impact

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Speaker 1: of transracial adoptions, and we wanted to follow up the

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Speaker 1: conversation by hearing from someone who has lived this experience.

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Speaker 1: Joining us today is Angela Tucker. Angela is an apt

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Speaker 1: who is committed to advancing the conversation, not just having one.

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Speaker 1: She is an unabashed truth teller and a gifted speaker

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Speaker 1: and educator. As a black woman, adopted from foster care

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Speaker 1: to a white family and growing up in a city

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Speaker 1: that was demographically only one percent black, she understands the

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Speaker 1: power of life's most difficult moments. Her determination and insatiable

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Speaker 1: curiosity is an inspiration to many and is on display

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Speaker 1: through her search for her biological parents in the documentary Closure,

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Speaker 1: and her unique upbringing has encouraged an expansive and inclusive

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Speaker 1: definition of family. During our conversation, Angela share more about

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Speaker 1: her experiences as an adoptee, the challenges she's had related

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Speaker 1: to identity, the process of reuniting with her biological family,

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Speaker 1: and about the work she does to help other transracial adoptees.

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Speaker 1: If there's something that resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,

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Speaker 1: please share it with us on social media using the

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Speaker 1: hashtag TBG in session. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us today, Angela. Hi, I'm glad

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Speaker 1: to be here. Yeah, it's very excited to have you here.

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Speaker 1: So you know, this whole conversation kind of started. So

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Speaker 1: we are big fans of this is us here at

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls, and so exciting one for you

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Speaker 1: to be able to share your experience. But it also

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Speaker 1: sounds like you've done some consulting work, which makes sense

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Speaker 1: that this is why it feels like they've gotten the

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Speaker 1: storyline right in a lot of ways. Right, So could

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Speaker 1: you start by just telling us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: your adoption story. Yeah, I mean I was adopted out

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Speaker 1: of foster care as a one year old from Tennessee

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Speaker 1: to Washington State. So I was adopted into a white family.

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Speaker 1: My parents are white. They adopted lots of other kids

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Speaker 1: as well and had one biological child, so my family

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Speaker 1: was mixed, and the sense that I had black siblings

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Speaker 1: age and siblings white siblings. But the town that we

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Speaker 1: grew up in was predominantly white, and it was actually

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Speaker 1: a former sundown town and so all the way up

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Speaker 1: kind of near the Canadian border, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: grew up with a lovely upbringing and all of the

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Speaker 1: opportunities that I think my birth mom wished for me.

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Speaker 1: And at the same time, I grew up without knowing

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Speaker 1: other black folks, and so that really impacts my sense

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Speaker 1: of self and my sense of racial identity. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in a closed adoption, so I couldn't know my

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Speaker 1: birth family at all until I found them in my

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Speaker 1: mid twenties, and that was really difficult. Also, just the

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Speaker 1: not knowing. Yeah, I would imagine and you know, you

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Speaker 1: highlighted something that I think is something poignant that we

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Speaker 1: saw and this is us as well. Just this experience

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Speaker 1: of this. Most recently we've seen Randall go to like

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Speaker 1: a support group right for other people who have experienced

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Speaker 1: transracial adoptions. And so this idea of like identity for

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Speaker 1: a bestion, Can you talk a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: like how you've record guys, maybe some of those struggles

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Speaker 1: as an adult. Oh yeah, I mean being with others

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Speaker 1: who are transracially adopted is the place where I and

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Speaker 1: so many other transracial adoptees feel like we belong because

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Speaker 1: it is a space where we inherently understand the complexities.

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Speaker 1: And one of the key pieces that non adopted folks

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Speaker 1: struggle to understand is the difficulty around feeling a loyalty

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Speaker 1: towards our adoptive parents and wanting to show that like

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Speaker 1: be grateful and show our gratitude, while also having to

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Speaker 1: keep inside basically the struggle about the things that we've lost,

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Speaker 1: most notably losing our culture, because currently society doesn't really

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Speaker 1: put a huge emphasis on that piece. For adoptees, it's

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Speaker 1: mostly like if you've got a new home, you have healthy,

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Speaker 1: stable environment, then all is great. You know that the

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Speaker 1: thought about kind of cultural blacked is not something that

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Speaker 1: people often thought of. In fact, it's often this kind

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Speaker 1: of color blind approach that parents took, and that makes

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Speaker 1: for a lot of adult adoptees feel a little disconnect

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Speaker 1: between our genetic identity being black or whatever we are,

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Speaker 1: compared to our feeling identity, which for some people doesn't match.

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Speaker 1: And for translation to adoptees, this is really common. So

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Speaker 1: being with other people who get that inherently and know

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Speaker 1: that it's a place where we can say that without

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Speaker 1: having a lot of pushback is absolutely crucial. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: straddling both worlds, and you know, they talked about that

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Speaker 1: in an episode as well, Like this gratitude that you're

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Speaker 1: supposed to feel and of course do right, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't negate the grief that you may experience. I'm related

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Speaker 1: to the laws of your birth family exactly. And the

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Speaker 1: gratitude it goes deeper too, because for so many adoptees,

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Speaker 1: we know that we came with a price tag, and

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Speaker 1: for so many of us who are adoptees of color,

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Speaker 1: we were negotiated down because white babies cost more. And

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Speaker 1: so there's this gratitude for being adopted combined with like

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Speaker 1: this transactional piece where it's like we feel like we

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Speaker 1: have to perform in order for us to feel like

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Speaker 1: our parents got what they wanted, and that doesn't leave

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Speaker 1: a lot of space to question anything at all. And

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Speaker 1: this comes from the most benevolent and lovely adoptive parents,

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Speaker 1: you know, like in my family where my parents were

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Speaker 1: really great. So it's not a case of adoptive parents

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Speaker 1: being like, don't talk about this, but it's a case

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Speaker 1: of us feeling like, if we talk about this, we

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Speaker 1: are really going against the grain, and so much so

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Speaker 1: that it's kind of scary because we fear that we

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Speaker 1: might get abandoned again, right, right, of course, And you

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Speaker 1: mentioned that you feel like historically, like these were not

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Speaker 1: conversations that people were having around on like the cultural

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Speaker 1: piece right in making sure that that was something that

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Speaker 1: was discussed in the adoption process, do you feel like

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Speaker 1: strides have been made in that process now? Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 1: Many agencies require perspective adoptive parents to take some courses

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Speaker 1: around racism and understanding that, but it's still up to

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Speaker 1: the parents as to whether or not they want to

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Speaker 1: embody that and really believe that or not. And so

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Speaker 1: I do know a lot of lovely adoptive parents who

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Speaker 1: have decided to move to different cities so that their

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Speaker 1: kids didn't have to be the only kids of color.

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Speaker 1: And that's really awesome. And I also credit a lot

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Speaker 1: of adoption camps for the growth in this area too,

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Speaker 1: that there are camps all around the country that are

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Speaker 1: designed specifically for transracial families, and the focus there is

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Speaker 1: for kids to see other people who look like them,

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Speaker 1: and then for the parents to understand that racism is

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Speaker 1: absolutely one of the key components that they have to address. Oh.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I wasn't aware that there were camps,

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Speaker 1: but I can see how that could be incredibly helpful.

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Speaker 1: I definitely have heard of you know, like hair stylists

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Speaker 1: and other like service providers like working with transracial adoptive

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Speaker 1: families right to talk about like how do you style

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Speaker 1: like black hair, and you know, like those types of things.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like that's maybe something that happens at

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Speaker 1: these camps. Yeah, I mean it goes so much deeper

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Speaker 1: than that, because it's not just like to our four

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Speaker 1: hour hair appointment, but it's a week long immersion experience.

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Speaker 1: And better yet than that, is to have it in

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Speaker 1: your daily life, to have representation, to see people who

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Speaker 1: look like you all over the place, But for so

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Speaker 1: many transracial adoptees, like that one week a year in

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Speaker 1: the summer is what they live for. M got it?

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Speaker 1: Got it? So are there other conversations? Are other things

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Speaker 1: that you think families should be thinking about if they

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Speaker 1: are thinking about adopting a child who is different from

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Speaker 1: their own culture? Oh? Yeah, Like the most important thing

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Speaker 1: I think for perspective parents is to ask themselves why

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Speaker 1: before they adopt, Like why do you feel especially equipped

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Speaker 1: to raise a child outside of your race? Why do

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Speaker 1: you want to? You know? I think honestly, there's a

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Speaker 1: savior narrative that sometimes it's so subconscious and so implicit

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Speaker 1: that parents don't even realize that's what's happening. But because

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Speaker 1: of the culture and the history of America, that oftentimes

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Speaker 1: is what is being replicated, and this feeling for some

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Speaker 1: white parents that they really do have better things. In reality,

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Speaker 1: it might be that they haven't faced as much oppression

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Speaker 1: than the child's birth parents, and that's why they may

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Speaker 1: have more materialistic things. And so if you really sit

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Speaker 1: with that, then to start to think about do we

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Speaker 1: really need to break this family apart? If there isn't

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Speaker 1: any neglect or abuse, if it's poverty, then perhaps we

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Speaker 1: can keep the family together. So I think perspective families

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Speaker 1: have a lot of thinking and hopefully hard conversations that

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Speaker 1: they have with themselves before choosing to adopt a kind

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Speaker 1: of color. Yeah, you know, and I think that's a

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Speaker 1: really important point, you know, because I think if there's

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Speaker 1: anything and I don't know that this is anything we

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Speaker 1: didn't know before the last year, but definitely within this

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Speaker 1: last year, I think it is even clearer how so

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Speaker 1: many white people they're just oblivious to, like things like

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Speaker 1: privilege and you know, like the idea that they could

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Speaker 1: be acting out some of this saviorism, right, And so

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Speaker 1: you know, there really does need to be a very

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Speaker 1: deep digging around like why do I love that question?

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Speaker 1: Like why do I feel like I am especially equipped

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Speaker 1: to raise this child from a different culture? Right? And

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Speaker 1: I think it's pretty striking. One of the short films

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Speaker 1: that I created featured a black adoptive dad who was

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Speaker 1: adopting a black boy from foster care, and I asked

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Speaker 1: him if he would ever consider adopting a white child,

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Speaker 1: and he was kind of be fuddled, like why would

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Speaker 1: I do that? I know nothing about white culture, whiteness,

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Speaker 1: how to live, you know, he lives in a predominantly

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Speaker 1: black area, And I juxtaposed that with the answer I

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Speaker 1: get from white parents about adopting a kid of color,

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Speaker 1: and their response is, oh, of course, yeah, I would

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Speaker 1: love to, you know, And it's just like that is

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Speaker 1: fascinating to me. Yeah. I think it kind of goes

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Speaker 1: with this whole idea of we're all just a human raise, right,

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Speaker 1: and you know, like I can love the kid, and

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Speaker 1: you know, like, of course there are some things that

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Speaker 1: you can't give the kid, but there or other things

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Speaker 1: you know, because of the difference in cultural lands that

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Speaker 1: you are not even aware that you can't provide in

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Speaker 1: the same way. Right. And one example that I give

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Speaker 1: a lot is this example I give to white adoptive

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Speaker 1: parents of black or brown kids. Is one of my mentees.

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Speaker 1: I do a lot of mentoring of adoptees, youth and adults.

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Speaker 1: But there was one thirteen year old black girl who

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Speaker 1: after George Floyd died, she was with a friend and

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Speaker 1: they were talking about going shopping, and that friend is

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Speaker 1: a black girl, and that black girl is not adopted.

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Speaker 1: So her black parents were telling her friend, when you

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Speaker 1: go to the store, you cannot put the receipt in

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Speaker 1: your bag, hold it out, keep it in your hand

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Speaker 1: until you walk through that door, and you're like, I

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Speaker 1: can't even see the store anymore. And he was talking

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Speaker 1: really firm to her, had like this fervor passion. And

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Speaker 1: so my mentee went home to her white parents and

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Speaker 1: was like, hey, you know, my friend's dad said this

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Speaker 1: to her. How come you've never told me this or

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Speaker 1: is this important for me to do as well? And

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Speaker 1: her parents started crying and said like, I am so

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Speaker 1: sorry that you're going to have to deal with racism

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Speaker 1: in this way, and they were just very tearful. And

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Speaker 1: so my mentee then came to me and was like,

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Speaker 1: what else aren't they telling me? You know, what else

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Speaker 1: do I need to know about being a black woman

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Speaker 1: in the world that I'm not getting, Because you know,

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Speaker 1: her parents were very aware, but it was just that

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Speaker 1: they didn't have the lived experience to like imbue it

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Speaker 1: in the same way that her friend's dad did. I

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Speaker 1: thought that was like a such a clear example of

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Speaker 1: one of the points of tension, because it's not that

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Speaker 1: my mentees parents aren't great. They're wonderful, right, They're just

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Speaker 1: those pieces that are missed. Yep. Yeah, those crucial pieces.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's so important, right right right, More from

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Speaker 1: Angela right after the break, Angela, I'm wondering if you

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Speaker 1: can talk a little bit more. So you've talked about

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Speaker 1: like the identity piece that can definitely, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of show up in childhood and in adulthood. Are there

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Speaker 1: other mental health struggles that maybe you've experienced are in

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Speaker 1: your work with like mentees and in doing the work

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Speaker 1: that you've done, that you've kind of seen come up

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Speaker 1: over and over again. The big one is adoptees not

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Speaker 1: feeling comfortable to express the sadness of about losing their

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Speaker 1: first family. And and there's like this ambiguous loss, So

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Speaker 1: ambiguous sauce is like you know, someone is not physically present,

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Speaker 1: but there is a psychological presence. And that is a

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Speaker 1: tough one for adoptees to speak about because it doesn't

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Speaker 1: make sense to people, like why do you miss somebody

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Speaker 1: you never knew? Why do you miss somebody who was

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Speaker 1: terrible to you? And so how do you talk about that?

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Speaker 1: I know that the prevailing notion, this fairy tale narrative

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Speaker 1: of adoption is so strong that is what gets pushed

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Speaker 1: down and suppressed by adoptees, and that's why the American

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Speaker 1: Academy of the Psychological Association said that one out of

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Speaker 1: four adoptees who seek therapy attempts suicide. There are really

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Speaker 1: high suicide rates in adoption, and these adoptees aren't coming

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Speaker 1: from bad adoptive families. They're just coming from places where

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Speaker 1: they're haven't had space to be honest, and even therapists

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Speaker 1: sometimes meet adoptees with statements like that's so cool you

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Speaker 1: were adopted, and just that is enough to shut us down. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't aware of that. Thank you for shying that, Angela. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, because you know, it is almost if we

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Speaker 1: are not giving space for the entirety of the conversation, right,

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Speaker 1: like the duality of it, Like, yes, I can't like

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Speaker 1: we talked about right, like I could be grateful that

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Speaker 1: I have this experience but also feel deeply saden that

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Speaker 1: I did not have this other experience. I mean, especially

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Speaker 1: depending on the details of the adoption, you know, like

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Speaker 1: if it was a family that they were part of

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Speaker 1: for a long time, you know, then there is a

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Speaker 1: huge grief there of losing that family, right, Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: that's why I was I was really excited to consult

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Speaker 1: with the writers if this is us for Randall, because

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen very many accurate portrayals of adoptees in

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Speaker 1: the media and entertainment, And most of the time we

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Speaker 1: hear from the adoptive parents perspective, like how long it

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Speaker 1: took for them to get through the adoption process, or

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Speaker 1: how much they've always wanted a baby, or you know,

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Speaker 1: that's a really common thing for us to hear, but

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Speaker 1: not so much the other side of the coin. And

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Speaker 1: so I'm thrilled that mass media is starting to catch up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I would imagine that you were involved also with

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Speaker 1: the storyline of him being able to go to his

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Speaker 1: birth mom's home, right, Like we talked about that on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. What an incredibly beautiful experience I think all

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Speaker 1: around to be able to talk about like that deep

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Speaker 1: sense of sadness that he didn't even really know was

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Speaker 1: there until he was able to go to his birth

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Speaker 1: mom's home exactly. Yeah, there are some deep feelings when

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Speaker 1: we are severed from our roots and therapy, especially working

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Speaker 1: with adoption competent therapists, it's just really helpful for us

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Speaker 1: to expand our vocabulary around adoption. I think that's one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I've seen is most beneficial from

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Speaker 1: the youth that I mentor, is like putting words to

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Speaker 1: these experiences that go beyond kind of what we're told,

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Speaker 1: you know, Like some of my mentees knew that their

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Speaker 1: birth parents chose adoption, for example, but they didn't know

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Speaker 1: anything further than that. So to talk together about like

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Speaker 1: what does it mean for someone to choose this and

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Speaker 1: what point in their life did they have to get

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Speaker 1: to need to make this choice, and then starting to

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Speaker 1: think about political ramifications and like history between different continents,

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Speaker 1: even like Korean adoptees thinking about the Korean War and

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Speaker 1: what that meant, or Chinese adoptees thinking about the one

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Speaker 1: child policy and how that impacted there need to be

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Speaker 1: adopted and all of these things need to come into

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Speaker 1: the conversation, and it hadn't yet right until it definitely

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Speaker 1: feels like that is why your work has been so relevant,

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Speaker 1: is to be able to bring lights all of these

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Speaker 1: conversations that have really been missed exactly. And I think

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Speaker 1: there's a fear. I think there's a lot of fear

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Speaker 1: from adoptive parents about getting too far into the truth

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Speaker 1: that it might be too hurtful for us to hear

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Speaker 1: or understand when in reality, once we have our truth,

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Speaker 1: at least we have something to work with as opposed

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Speaker 1: to just being in our heads and fantasizing and wondering.

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Speaker 1: And that was like Randall's ghost kingdom, right, like my

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Speaker 1: ghost kingdom was. Magic Johnson was my birth dad because

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Speaker 1: he has a humongous smile and he from his basketball.

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Speaker 1: I do both of those things. And then Halle Berry

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Speaker 1: was my birth mom just because she's gorgeous, and I like,

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Speaker 1: why not, you know? But and so that was what

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Speaker 1: I thought of my whole life. And I knew both

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Speaker 1: of them were not my birth parents, but I had

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Speaker 1: to fill in the voids somehow. But what I really

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Speaker 1: wanted was the truth. Once I got the truth, once

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Speaker 1: I met my birth mom and my birth dad, like

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Speaker 1: they are just ten thousand times better than Magic Johnson

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Speaker 1: or Halleyberry. I love it. Can you remember, Angela, like

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Speaker 1: how they played out for you in childhood? I mean,

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Speaker 1: because at some point you were not old enough to

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Speaker 1: have the language of course that you have now. But

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Speaker 1: do you remember like how you navigated it as a

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Speaker 1: much younger person. Yeah, I think it was things like

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Speaker 1: all my traits, like I would just be like, I'm

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Speaker 1: so athletic. Where did I get this from? You know?

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Speaker 1: Or or sometimes not even stated, but my sister, who's

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Speaker 1: my parents biological daughter, has beautiful blue eyes, just like

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Speaker 1: my dad's beautiful blue eyes, and everybody would comment on them.

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Speaker 1: And so just hearing that, I didn't even say anything,

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Speaker 1: but I know I felt a loss of like I

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Speaker 1: wish somebody could say that about me. I just I

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Speaker 1: longed for that. So I think through those sorts of things,

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Speaker 1: or my parents too would really lovingly help me think

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Speaker 1: too about my birth parents. When I would play the piano,

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Speaker 1: they might say, like, I wonder if there's any musicians

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Speaker 1: in your family? You know. That was really an awesome

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Speaker 1: way for me to know it was okay to think

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Speaker 1: about them. Yeah, that they kind of created a space

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Speaker 1: for you to wonder as will yes, yes, right right.

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Speaker 1: So can you talk a little bit about the process

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Speaker 1: of reconnecting with your biological family. Yeah, I was pretty

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Speaker 1: wild I found my birth mother because there are some

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Speaker 1: laws that don't allow adoptees to search until we're either

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Speaker 1: eighteen or twenty one, and so for me, I just

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Speaker 1: had to wait and then when I was able, I

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Speaker 1: contacted the state of Tennessee to try to get my

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Speaker 1: original birth certificate because adoptees get amended birth certificates. So

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Speaker 1: the one that I had my whole life said that

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Speaker 1: my active parents gave birth to me. That's all we get.

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Speaker 1: And the real one is locked away and it has

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Speaker 1: my biological parents names on it, and so I've always

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Speaker 1: wanted that document because then that would let me get somewhere,

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Speaker 1: and so I applied for that and then eventually found

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Speaker 1: my birth dad first, because he has a pretty unique name.

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Speaker 1: His name is O. Teious, and through a lot of

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Speaker 1: Internet sleuthing and stalking, he found only four people in

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Speaker 1: the state of Tennessee with the name O. Tarious, and

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Speaker 1: there was one in the city of Chattanooga, where I

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00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,160
Speaker 1: was born, so we thought that's probably him. So essentially

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Speaker 1: my family we just jumped on a plane and went

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Speaker 1: up to him, and he had no idea that he

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Speaker 1: even had a child, but we look exactly the same

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Speaker 1: and so it's pretty undeniable. And then he took me

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Speaker 1: to my birth mother, who said, I don't know who

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Speaker 1: you are, please leave, and so she rejected me, and

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Speaker 1: a year later she reached out and study. Yeah, actually

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Speaker 1: I am your birth mom. I just needed to get

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Speaker 1: some stuff in order because nobody knew I was pregnant

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Speaker 1: with you, and I needed to start telling people. And

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Speaker 1: then at that point she invited me and my whole

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Speaker 1: family back, and we've been able to build a relationship

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Speaker 1: since then, and I've been able to meet my birth

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Speaker 1: siblings and aunts and uncles and cousins, and it's pretty wild.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty overwhelming. Yeah, I can't imagine. And it sounds

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Speaker 1: like your family was involved with you meeting your birth family. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank goodness, thank goodness. I mean, I hear a lot

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Speaker 1: of adoptive parents who aren't sure if their kids want

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Speaker 1: them on that journey, and for me, it was essential,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't think I could have done it without

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Speaker 1: the support of my adoptive parents, like my mom. When

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Speaker 1: I met my birth mom for the second time after

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Speaker 1: she admitted that she was my birth mom, I was

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Speaker 1: like clenching my mom's hand so hard because it was

390
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Speaker 1: just really scary. Isn't the right word, but it was

391
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Speaker 1: just a lot I needed her with me, so that

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Speaker 1: was it was really exciting. I also felt like I

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00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 1: knew that they had always expressed an interest in my

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Speaker 1: birth family. So to hear my mom basically say like

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Speaker 1: that she was as excited as I was to meet

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Speaker 1: my birth mom just really made me feel loved. So

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Speaker 1: seeing them together is just one of the happiest things

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Speaker 1: anytime that happens. I love it so much. I wonder

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Speaker 1: anually if you can offer some singestions for people who

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00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: are listening who may be thinking about starting that process,

401
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 1: or even parents listening who have adopted children and are

402
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Speaker 1: wondering like or are they going to ask me this question?

403
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 1: Anything that you would offer. I mean, I think the

404
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: biggest thing is to listen to the voices of adult

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00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: adoptees who are speaking out on Instagram, on Twitter, and

406
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 1: and to really believe what they are saying. I think

407
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: there's a tendency to be like, oh, that adoptee just

408
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: had a bad experience, and in reality, like all of

409
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: our experiences are valid and valued, and so I really

410
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Speaker 1: can't recommend that highly enough. And the other thing I

411
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: think is that we as adoptees, probably aren't gonna just

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00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: come up to you and say, Hey, I want to

413
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: talk about my adoption. Adoptive parents need to create that

414
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: space by bringing up adoption all the time in ways

415
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 1: that becomes so normal, kind of like what I said

416
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Speaker 1: around the athleticism, you know, like it can be as

417
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: quick as just one quick sentence like wow, you're really

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Speaker 1: good at basketball. Someone in your birth family must also play.

419
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: Like just a quick sentence like that is letting the

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Speaker 1: kid know, Okay, you're not scared of this, we can

421
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: talk about it. That is going to be much more

422
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: effective than saying like I'm just gonna wait until they

423
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: bring it up, because we're not going to make it talkable. Yeah. So,

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00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 1: in one of your The Adopting next Door podcast interviews,

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00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: you mentioned filling out a medical history form and just

426
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: simply crossing the whole section out. I'm wondering if you

427
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: can share some other overlook ways that this mothering experience

428
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: happens for adoptees. Oh my gosh, Like yesterday is a

429
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: perfect example. It was Mother's Day yesterday, and for a

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00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: lot of us, we have a lot of mothers foster mom,

431
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: birth mom, adoptive mom, and and so like, wouldn't it

432
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 1: be nice sometime when Hallmark cards accept that and like

433
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: have cards for us to that. And then a lot

434
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: of school assignments like do your family tree or bring

435
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: in a baby photo. Those things happen a lot to

436
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: my mentees. They talk about being so frustrated because they're like,

437
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: I think I'm just gonna do my my dad's Irish

438
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 1: side of his family tree. Or adoptees who maybe wearing

439
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: orphanages and don't have any baby pictures, and they're like,

440
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: what do I do? I think I'm gonna skip school?

441
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: You know, it's just hard to know that you belong

442
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: when you can't do some of these assignments kind of thing.

443
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: I think those are some of the things that come

444
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: to mind right away. More from my conversation with Angela

445
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: after the break, do you have any suggestions for like

446
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: how adults and caregivers can create those inclusive kinds of experiences.

447
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: It's pushing back against a lot of the adoption related

448
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: microaggressions that occur every day. You know that to create

449
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: an expansive definition of family. I saw a lot of

450
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: beautiful posts like on Instagram yesterday from Mother's Day that

451
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: we're very inclusive, saying there are so many different ways

452
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: to mother. Happy Mother's Day to all of them, the

453
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: grieving mothers, the biological mothers who can't see their kids,

454
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: like making those public posts, I think is slowly going

455
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: to change the fabric of kind of what we think

456
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: of as family. I'm really excited about that, speaking up

457
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 1: at every chance possible, And I think that also goes

458
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: to kind of pushing back against that narrative of an

459
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: adopted being so lucky that they were adopted. You know,

460
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: if we can start to peel that back, so many

461
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: of these other things are gonna false suit because teachers

462
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: and the media, they're gonna start thinking about this naturally.

463
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: You know, that's my hope. I have found that to

464
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: be true that once I pushed back against kind of

465
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: one big glaring thing, that it just kind of reframes

466
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: people's their mind. And it's pretty soon after that they

467
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: start to kind of see the world in a different way,

468
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: and things that weren't very obvious before all of a

469
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: sudden they're like, oh wait, what about this? And what

470
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: about that? And it's pretty fun. Yeah, as you were talking,

471
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 1: I was thinking, like, you know, I wonder if if

472
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: some parents do this, like go and talk with the

473
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: school administration or their kids teachers in the beginning of

474
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: the year to say like, hey, I don't know what

475
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: the curriculum looks like. But if there are any assignments

476
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: like bringing in baby pictures or family trees, you may

477
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: want to reconsider because you know, my child has experience.

478
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: Absolutely or a lot of parents do that simply because

479
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: of them being a transracial adoptee and having white parents

480
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: picked their kids up from school. Um, so talking to

481
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: the administration beforehand so that it's we're not going to

482
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: single out this child. Many international adoptees have, you know,

483
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: names that might be hard to pronounce, and I know

484
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: a lot of adoptees who have just changed their name

485
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: to be more American and kind of assimilate. And so

486
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: to try to stop that, many parents have gone in

487
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: and helped the teacher know how to pronounce the name

488
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: right away, and man, that goes a long way so

489
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: that the child can keep their birth name. Yeah. Yeah,

490
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: just so many opportunities and even small things like that

491
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: to affirm people. Yeah yeah, yeah, it may seem small

492
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: to us, but it actually makes a big difference to

493
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: a child. Yeah. I mean, especially like the names is

494
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: a big one too. I know a few adoptees who

495
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: changed their names or kind of shorten their names, go

496
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: by nicknames. And then when I talk to them about it.

497
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: They're they're sad because their actual name is the only

498
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: thing that their biological parents gave them, and so they

499
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: feel such a connection to that name, but then feel

500
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: like I just gotta let it go because nobody can

501
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: pronounce it. It's really annoying that I have to correct

502
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: people all the time, and that is a humongous loss,

503
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: yea one that isn't easily seen because people are like, yeah,

504
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: she has a nickname, you know, it's cool. Is there

505
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: anything that I have not asked you that you're thinking, Oh,

506
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: I would really be upset if I didn't share this,

507
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: you know. I think a lot of folks ask me

508
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: if I am anti adoption, and I just think it's

509
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: frustrating when we ask for like a binary yes, no, good,

510
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: bad for something that is so inherently complex. And so

511
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: I definitely feel that we are adopting at too high

512
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: of a rate that it should be slowed down. And

513
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: one reason for that is capitalism, unfortunately, and so I'm

514
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: not anti or pro adoption, but I definitely think we

515
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: need to be looking at ethics with every single case

516
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: to make sure that it's done ethically. Any resources are

517
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: like things that you've seen that do a good job

518
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: of talking about like the ethics of adoption. Yeah. I

519
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: love Packed Organization p a c. T. They are based

520
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: out of northern California and they work really hard to

521
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: find black families to adopt black kids. And that's something

522
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: that I'm not seeing from a lot of other agencies.

523
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,479
Speaker 1: That many other agencies have a huge number of white

524
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: parents available and haven't really looked into their systems or

525
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: their practices or their policies into that discrepancy and that

526
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: disproportionality and have been kind of okay with the fact

527
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of black folks who informally adopt,

528
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: which is great, but we also need black and brown

529
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: parents to formally adopt, and so Packed out of Oakland

530
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: is doing an awesome job of that. And they also

531
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: have an incredible camp one that I really highly recommend,

532
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: and it takes place both in Tahoe, California and then

533
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: on the East Coast every summer, and they only have

534
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: people of color as their counselors for the kids. They

535
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: have really challenging keynote speakers for the adoptive parents, and

536
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: I think they're doing it right right. So Angela, I'm

537
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: wondering if you can share more like some of the

538
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: resources that you have found really helpful in doing some

539
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: of your work. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of

540
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: adopt the podcast that I love and like Adoptees on,

541
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: which is by Haley rad Case. She's a white adoptee,

542
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: and you know, it's not always transracial, but sometimes just

543
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: adoptees that are same races have harder time because it's

544
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: not as visible. So I love her podcast. There are

545
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: some really great books too that are I'm trying to

546
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: think of one specific one. I think it's called Outsiders

547
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: Within and it is a compilation of a bunch of

548
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: transracial and international adoptees talking about their experiences, which is

549
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: really great. I created this adopting Manifesto, which it was

550
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: like my mantra of the things that society kind of

551
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: told me as an adoptee that I couldn't do. I

552
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: wrote it in the positive, like I can love more

553
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 1: than one parent, it's not mutually exclusive. I do have

554
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: the right to know my medical history and a bunch

555
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: of statements like that, and I sell that so that

556
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: adoptive parents can like frame it on their kids wall

557
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: even before they know how to read. They can grow

558
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: up with this mantra and know that it's okay. And

559
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: that's been something that has been a great resource for

560
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: adoptive families, just to give them language and to demonstrate

561
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: their commitment to the adoptee growing up whole. So that's

562
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: available on my website at Angela Tucker dot com. And

563
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: I'm so excited because I'm working on getting that translated

564
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: into six different languages right now so that adoptees who

565
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: are who are born in Ethiopia and maybe they speak Amharic,

566
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: will be able to buy it in that language, their

567
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: native language, which is just a really beautiful way within

568
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: their home, within their room, to bring in their culture.

569
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: So I'm excited about that. I also on my website

570
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: have a bunch of movies that I created. My documentary

571
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: about my search for my birth parents is available on

572
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: Amazon Prime and Hulu. And then I've just talked a

573
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: lot to translacially adopted youth and created a short web

574
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: series and so to hear from their mouths some of

575
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: their experiences is irreplaceable. So I really recommend watching those.

576
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: Perfect will definitely share that in the show Knows And

577
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: do you have any social media handles that you'd like

578
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: to share. Sure, Yeah, you can find me on Instagram

579
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,240
Speaker 1: at Angie Adopting and then on Facebook at the Adopted Life.

580
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: And those are also places where I've tried to build

581
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,479
Speaker 1: community so that we can have open conversations about really

582
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: tricky stuff like white saviorism within adoption. And it's been

583
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: a a neat thing to have lots of other adoptive

584
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,479
Speaker 1: parents kind of commenting and writing and we can learn

585
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 1: from each other. So that's another resource that I think

586
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: is not only a great place for that discourse, but

587
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: friendship have also formed through that, which I think has

588
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: been really ultimately helpful for the adoptee. Oh, I'm sure,

589
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: thank you for sharing that well. I really appreciate all

590
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: of this information. Angela. Thank you so much for your

591
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: time today. Yeah, thanks for having me on to be here.

592
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Angela was able to share more about

593
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: her experiences in her work with us. To learn more

594
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: about her and her work, be sure to visit the

595
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com, slash

596
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: a Chucker, and don't forget to text two sisters right

597
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,399
Speaker 1: now to encourage them to check out the episode. If

598
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,959
Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure

599
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 1: to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black

600
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to

601
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: continue digging into this topic or just be in community

602
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: with other sisters, come on over and join us in

603
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet

604
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: designed just for black women. You can join us at

605
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: community that Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank you'all

606
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look

607
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.

608
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 1: Take it care, h